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Romans 13 - Submission and Civil Disobedience
84 Plays1 month ago
Romans 13 has been a go-to text for answering Christian questions about government. Does it teach christians how to use political power? Are christians supposed to obey good government? Should christians overthrow bad governments? A look at Romans 13 in context shows that some of the claims about this text don’t hold water. Nick and Matt take a look at God’s ordering of worldly authorities and how Christians are called to participate (and sometimes not participate) in God’s work. They also consider common questions around violence in light of this calling, such as using violence for good and violence in the Old Testament.
Interlude Music: Rosita Linda by DonVayei
Theme Song: Believe by Posthumorous
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Transcript
Introduction to Christian Submission
00:00:01
Speaker
It's the Reparadigm Podcast, and today we're following up on our last episode by having a conversation about what it means for a Christian to submit to obey the governing authorities. I'd encourage you to go back and listen to the previous episode if you've not.
00:00:15
Speaker
But in any case, you enjoy the conversation and find it useful.
Bible Verses and Current Events
00:00:27
Speaker
One interesting phenomenon I've found over the last five years of my life is the way that Christians will post vastly different Bible verses about the government, depending on what's going on in current events.
00:00:40
Speaker
So like during the COVID-19 pandemic, I literally remember my Facebook feed being filled with folks that were saying, we must obey God rather than man. Like, I'm not wearing a mask. I'm not getting no vaccine or anything like that.
00:00:54
Speaker
Whereas in recent times, so particularly in our state here in Minnesota, obviously with the ice crackdowns and stuff like that, while some Christians were standing up for those that are being persecuted, other Christians were hopping onto the Facebook and being like, no, we must submit to the governing authorities.
00:01:11
Speaker
The we must obey God rather than man verse was nowhere to be seen anymore by some of these same people. So I just find that like interesting. It seems like maybe we're just like mixing and matching, selecting the Bible verses that are convenient for our political preferences in that moment.
00:01:28
Speaker
We talked at length in the last episode about how the kingdom of God really is to be an alternative political reality that should ground our ethics and our view of the world and all these issues.
Kingdom of God as Political Reality
00:01:38
Speaker
We shouldn't be informed by certainly like partisan warfare, but also we shouldn't be informed by national propaganda.
00:01:45
Speaker
But that does leave the question open, like how should we be interpreting these different passages in the scriptures that seem to be giving different advice for Christians interacting with the powers of the world?
00:01:57
Speaker
Yeah, we kind of covered a lot of ground and painted a big picture really quickly last episode. i think it'd be helpful to look at how key texts like Romans 13 have been explained, sometimes misunderstood or misused, and to discuss some of the more common pushbacks that this kind of exclusive kingdom of God allegiance we've been describing received.
Romans 13 Misconceptions
00:02:15
Speaker
Yeah, the Romans 13 one's a big one because that's one that I have been seeing quite a lot for those that are like pro-federal law enforcement. Yeah. Yeah, Romans 13 has often been taken as kind of like the primary text for establishing Christian interaction with government.
00:02:28
Speaker
So let's take a look at some of the few claims that are commonly made from this text. Yeah, yeah. One claim I see is that Romans 13 teaches how Christians should use governmental authority. So Romans 13, 4 says, For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid. For rulers do not bear the sword for no reason.
00:02:47
Speaker
They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. the logic basically goes like this. Romans 13 teaches God's proper design for government. God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
00:03:01
Speaker
So Christians should seek to influence and change government to fit this design. Whether that's as outsiders or wherever possible. Maybe even in positions of authority within the government. Okay. I think there are two really big problems with this interpretation.
00:03:14
Speaker
The first is just taking a look at historical context. Romans 13 was not written to anyone in authority. It also wasn't written to encourage anyone to take governmental authority.
00:03:25
Speaker
The house church community that Paul was writing to was completely outside of the power structures in Rome. They didn't have the democratic authority to vote like we're accustomed to. Members of this house church weren't running for political office.
00:03:38
Speaker
So Romans 13 was written to people with no power as guidance for interacting with the Roman power structures. So it obviously can't have been Paul's purpose to teach them how Christians should use governmental authority because using governmental authority was not an option that they had available to them.
00:03:54
Speaker
Sure. Yeah, that makes sense.
Literary Context of Romans 13
00:03:56
Speaker
The second big issue with this approach shows up when you look at Romans 13 within its literary context. When you look at Romans 13 as part of the bigger letter, I think it's clear that it is not giving guidance to Christians for wielding political power.
00:04:09
Speaker
In fact, reading Romans 13 with Romans 12 makes it clear that Christians weren't supposed to have anything to do with the function of government being described in Romans 13. Hmm. So Romans 13.4 describes these authorities as God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
00:04:26
Speaker
They're called agents of ekthikos in Greek, which is punishment or vengeance or revenge. Ekthikos. Ekthikos. Romans 13 is continuing a discussion on Christians and God's ekthikos from Romans 12. Okay, so in Romans 12, there's a conversation about Ectikos already. Yeah. In Romans 12, 17 through 19.
00:04:45
Speaker
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath.
00:04:58
Speaker
For it is written, it is mine to avenge. I will repay, says the Lord. The do not take revenge is in Greek, mi iathus ekthikuntes. It's don't be agents of this ekthikos.
00:05:10
Speaker
The church is not called to act as agents of God's ekthikos. The church is called not to seek to enforce this vengeance, but to trust that God will bring about his own vengeance as he sees necessary.
00:05:22
Speaker
His own ekthikos. His own ekthikos. So while the powers of the world are used by God to bring about this punishment or this vengeance, that's not what Christians are called to participate in. Yeah.
00:05:33
Speaker
Specifically, do not take revenge, dear brothers. Leave room for God to do it. Yes. They told specifically, leave room for God to bring about his own vengeance. That's kind of a command, isn't it? It's very clear. Yes.
00:05:46
Speaker
All right. So tie it back to Romans 13 then. So if Christians are told not to be agents of ecthikos, to leave room for God's ecthikos, when we read in Romans 13 that the authorities are agents of God's ecthikos, I think that means we are to see that they can be tools that are used by God, but that Christians aren't called to participate in that function.
God's Use of Worldly Powers
00:06:08
Speaker
Romans 13.1 does say that the authorities that exist have been established by God. I think we're kind of predisposed to think that an authority being established by God means that that authority has the favor of God or that we're maybe called to support the rulers operating within that authority.
00:06:24
Speaker
We might even be tempted to see this as instruction that Christians should seek to participate in the vengeance of that authority. It's tempting to want to see God at work through the powers of the world and confuse that with a calling to participate in the vengeance being brought about by those powers, especially if we think that vengeance is just.
00:06:42
Speaker
But it's important that we recognize that there's a difference between saying that God can order the powers of the world and taking that as a calling to participate when those powers of the world are being used by God.
00:06:53
Speaker
Hmm.
Command Against Political Power
00:06:54
Speaker
Romans 13 says that these authorities are established or ordered by God. The verb used here is taso, which means to establish or to order, to put it in its place.
00:07:05
Speaker
So for God to establish or order an authority for his purpose does not mean that he endorses or approves of everything that authority does. It means that God can use the authorities that exist to accomplish his goals.
00:07:18
Speaker
In the Old Testament, we're told that God uses Egypt, Assyria, and Babylon like tools to accomplish his purposes. Often in the Old Testament, those purposes are punishing Israel, his people. Right, but what's not commanded is for the Israelites to like go join the Assyrians in conquering their own land or destroying Jerusalem or destroying the temple. Certainly not. Even when those nations, those empires are being used by God, they're still described as evil, rebellious empires who are committing great injustices that God will punish.
00:07:47
Speaker
Yeah, Cyrus, God's anointed, God's Messiah comes in and does a bunch of evil. It's not like what he did was good, but God was using him for a purpose. Yeah, no Israelite reading through the prophecies of Isaiah where God promises that Assyria and its leader will be used as God's rod to bring punishment thought to himself.
00:08:05
Speaker
Ah, well, I should go see if I can sign up to be part of the Assyrian army so I can participate in God's plans in the world. Right. Yep. That's the point. Yeah, that's a good distinction. That's a meaningful one, I think. So that maybe situates this Romans 13 in proper context so that when we read it, when we read be subject to the governing authorities, we're not reading join the governing authorities and do ectikos with them. Certainly not. But the command is still pretty clear, right? It's just like basically Christians obey everything they say, right?
00:08:34
Speaker
Romans 13.1 says, let everyone submit to the governing authorities. I hear the claim sometimes that this teaches that Christians should obey their government. Often this comes with kind of a unstated asterisk where people will say, oh, well, yes, you should obey your government.
00:08:48
Speaker
But this extends up until obedience to government conflicts with obedience to God. It's kind of like a tiered set of obedience. And then it's like, we must have obey God rather than man at that point. Yep. So follow all the laws of the government unless they call for clear disobedience to God's law. And then you have to be disobedient to the government.
00:09:05
Speaker
Or you don't like how they tax your tea. Or if you don't like how they tax your tea. Exactly. I think it's important that we look carefully at the language of Romans 13.1, because there's a difference between saying, let everyone submit to the governing authorities and everyone obey the governing authorities. Yeah, open that up a little bit more. What is the difference between being subject to and just simply obeying?
00:09:28
Speaker
Because I think everyone actually at the end of the day, to your point, would agree that some things, yeah, you you can't obey. And everyone's going to disagree about what those things are. But like at the end of the day, if your neighbor is going to be harmed and you are friends with your neighbor, you are going to protect them even against your government. Any good Christian will.
00:09:48
Speaker
Any good Christian would hide the Jews, for example. You know what I'm saying? Like that's what good Christians did in the Third Reich. So also in our time, there's going to be times where we're like protecting people against ah an overstepping government.
00:10:00
Speaker
So are you saying that there is a through line here that being subject to does not necessarily mean
Submission vs. Obedience
00:10:07
Speaker
obey all the time? Certainly not. I think it's very important that we understand the difference there.
00:10:12
Speaker
So to obey would be to do what an authority tells you you're supposed to do. To submit to an authority would be to accept their authority to issue punishments. Okay, whether you obey or not, you accept the result that they are, like, allowed to dish out to you. Yeah, it's completely possible to submit to an authority without obeying them.
00:10:33
Speaker
But submission means that when that authority sends men with swords to arrest or kill you, you don't pick up your own sword and fight back as an act of rebellion. The opposite of submission isn't disobedience, it's rebellion.
00:10:46
Speaker
That's exactly what Paul calls out in verse 2. He says, consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
00:10:57
Speaker
Okay, this is really important then. So if we look in the past, there's plenty of examples of Christians perceiving their governments to be unjust and even unchristian or like commanding them to do something that they ought not to do.
00:11:10
Speaker
But then instead of just simply living with the consequences of their principled stand, they'll actually pick up the sword and do revolution, like try to throw off that unjust government.
00:11:21
Speaker
I mean, the founding of almost every nation state is something like this story. The United States is obviously no different. What's interesting is Paul specifically describes not to do the revolution.
00:11:34
Speaker
He says be subject to it. That does not mean obedience, as we know, but it does not mean revolution by violent means. Yeah. And within the context of this letter, revolution by violent means was not just some theoretical concept either. The Second Temple Jews did this all the time. There's all kinds of different groups doing this. Yeah, this was written at a time when many Jews were hoping for God to send a warrior messiah who would lead his people in battle against Rome to establish a new kingdom of Israel.
00:12:01
Speaker
This mindset held that for God's power to be revealed in the world, his people needed to rise up in rebellion against the Roman Empire to win their independence. There is that spirit in the air, too. mean, shortly thereafter, i mean, that happens in Jerusalem. Yeah, this was probably written in the late 50s which means they were ah less than a decade away from the beginning of the Jewish revolt against Rome that ended with the destruction of the temple and huge numbers of lives being lost.
00:12:26
Speaker
That revolt wasn't the first and it wasn't the last in this time period either.
Historical Context of Paul's Letter
00:12:31
Speaker
The early Christian movement was still very Jewish, and many clearly expected Jesus' return to happen very soon.
00:12:37
Speaker
There were likely people within the church who were anxious to pick up arms and bring about the culmination of the new kingdom through violent rebellion. I think it's probably this type of mindset that Paul was concerned about when he wrote Romans 13.
00:12:50
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. And I think it's powerful to situate ourselves within that context. And that kind of reveals the meaning here of what he's saying. There were real pressures on the Second Temple Jews and on the early Christian movement in the face of an ungodly and unjust and cruel empire to pick up arms and try to throw that empire off and to do it in God's name. Mm-hmm.
00:13:13
Speaker
Paul does not give the advice, celebrate Roman culture, do everything they command you to do. No, he says, submit to them as the authority, but do not do a violent revolt.
00:13:26
Speaker
What that then produces is a bunch of people, the early Christians, who obey the teachings of Christ, even when that meant disobedience to the empire. And then they took the consequence of that choice, which was oftentimes persecution and death.
00:13:40
Speaker
But that was the way. That was the faithful way, as Paul would have seen it. Yeah, they followed that example of Jesus or of the early apostolic movement. The approach for all of them was to live in a way that is in kind of radical disobedience to the culture, to the authorities, but to still live in submission in that they did not live in violent rebellion against them.
00:14:01
Speaker
Jesus didn't take up arms, neither did the apostles. Jesus died on the cross. Many of the early apostles were tortured, whipped, stoned, killed by the authorities that they interacted with, but they never took up violent arms.
00:14:14
Speaker
As you reminded us last episode, Jesus dying on a cross is what you do to political dissidents. like He died the death of a political revolutionary, even though he did not take up arms or even hint at it.
00:14:27
Speaker
A peaceful and self-giving disobedience.
00:14:56
Speaker
while Paul told the Romans to submit to the authorities, he clearly isn't commanding them that they should actively seek to disobey the government just for the sake of disobedience. Right. That would be foolish. It would cause a lot of unnecessary hardship with no real benefit.
00:15:10
Speaker
What he's against is the idea that for the sake of the kingdom of God, believers need to throw off Rome through armed rebellion. He's actually directing them not to participate in the one means they would have had for gaining political power.
00:15:23
Speaker
Wow. It's a command not to seek power. So Romans 13 has been interpreted to mean that Christians should obey government. It's also been read to give the basis for when Christian rebellion against authority is warranted. oh boy.
00:15:36
Speaker
The logic goes like this. Romans 13 tells Christians to obey the government and describes God's intended purpose for government. When those governments fail to do what they're supposed to do, then Christians may be warranted, perhaps even obligated, to rebel against these governing authorities in order to establish an authority that is in line with God's design for government.
00:15:55
Speaker
Now, I think given the conversation we've been having, obviously, if Christians aren't called to be God's agents of retribution, then they can't be called to be God's agents of retribution against the government.
00:16:06
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah, this is an easy one. That's like the the one option that's definitely off the table here. Paul is pretty specific that this is not what he's going for. Yeah, I do think that is the the clear question that he's addressing pretty directly with this.
00:16:22
Speaker
So it's kind of strange that we have taken this passage as a sort of inverted justification for when we can actually rebel against government. You know what though? I think it's a coping mechanism for the history that we celebrate.
00:16:35
Speaker
We all live with these propagandistic narratives in our mind about the founding of our nation, the United States. And we have a strong sense, strong felt need to justify the history, the genocide of the indigenous people, the throwing off of the British government and all the horrible injustices ever since.
00:16:56
Speaker
But the inception of the nation that we live in, it tells a story that aligns well with this interpretation. That's basically like, ah, this ungodly government is not taxing us properly, or it's like, it's unjust in this way, and it's crushing the faithful people of God. And so we need to throw it off and establish a government that provides liberty and justice for all white landowners.
Justifying Rebellion with Romans 13
00:17:20
Speaker
yeah There's definitely a temptation if you're going to kind of want to use the powers of the world to gain and hold power when you're outside of the power structures to say, well, actually, it's OK for us not to submit to government. Yeah. And then once you hold the reins of power, it's easy to say, ah well, this passage now tells you why you should obey me.
00:17:38
Speaker
It's a cope because we all now live with the privilege of being born into the United States of America that was founded by obviously unjust means, as you know all nations are. But we're coming at this from a perspective of power and privilege. So we think, well, we can't say that this whole thing's been illegitimate, according to Christ's ethics. So we need to justify it. And so here's a fun interpretation that allows me to do that. Yeah.
00:18:04
Speaker
Unjust government? Well, then you're allowed to overthrow it and provide a better just government. Yeah. Long before United States of America, these kinds of things were going on. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm saying our interpretive tradition ties back into you know the formal Christendom, where Christians explicitly holding the reins of governmental power are seeking to use Romans 13 to both justify their rise to power and then also to offer instructions for how and why they should be ruling as they are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, this is endemic.
Honoring Emperors Equally
00:18:34
Speaker
One other claim I hear made about scripture more generally is that it demands that the emperor and maybe therefore all human governors deserve some sort of special honor from Christians. Oh, yeah. First Peter says that, right? Honor the emperor. Yeah. First Peter 2, 17 in the NIV says, show proper respect to everyone. Love the family of believers. Fear God. Honor the emperor. There you go.
00:18:56
Speaker
I think this can definitely give the impression that the emperors do some separate higher honor than the standard respect that's due to everyone else. Yeah, I'm supposed to show proper respect to my brothers and sisters, but I'm supposed to honor the emperor. Yeah, this is kind of an unfortunate side effect of translator word choices here.
00:19:15
Speaker
So the verb used for honoring the emperor at the end of the verse is the same verb commanded for everyone at the beginning of the verse. What? So it's actually honor everyone and then honor the emperor? Exactly. Honor all people and honor the emperor.
00:19:31
Speaker
So if you keep the translation consistent, I think this feels more like a reminder that we don't get to exclude the emperor from the honor we're supposed to show everyone. Honoring everyone, loving the family of believers, fearing God.
00:19:42
Speaker
And as a reminder, fearing God doesn't exempt you from honoring everyone, even the emperor. It's maybe more of a concession. it's like show proper respect to one another, which is, you know, like a basic command to love each other. And then, you know, love the family of believers, fear God, and also show proper respect to the emperor.
00:19:59
Speaker
It does feel like a concession, especially coming after fearing God part. Yeah. I don't think the risk for early Christians was to think too highly of the emperor. They needed to be reminded that he's due the same sort of honor that they're supposed to show everyone.
00:20:14
Speaker
Again, that historical context helps us so much here. As I said in the last episode, like the early Christians did not have a friendly relationship with the emperor or with the empire.
00:20:24
Speaker
But it's hard for us because we have a love affair with ours. Yeah. So these words hitting our ears hit different than they hit those early Christians ears. For sure they do.
00:20:35
Speaker
But contextualized, think I'm convinced by what you're saying. Yeah. I think it's in the context of, I know you have a hard time having respect for the emperor because he's horrible and he really is. But hey, he's a human made in God's image too. And you're supposed to be subject to the governing authorities as their agents of God's ectikos. Yeah.
00:20:54
Speaker
Imagine that message being given to a Christian community today that's living under persecution. Yeah. One where they would certainly not be predisposed to thinking very highly of their governing authorities. That reminder that, hey, even though you would love to be able to hate these people who are mistreating you, being followers of Jesus demands that you show them the same honor and respect that you show all of humanity. That you love them as you're called to love your enemy.
00:21:18
Speaker
It makes sense in the context of hostility. i feel it is interpreted differently in the context of I am the friend of the emperor, which no early Christian thought.
00:21:30
Speaker
There were no Nero posters up on Christian's walls. Nero 66 AD. Get out to the polls. I think Jesus called his followers to a major shift in their understanding of the powers and the kingdoms of this world that makes allegiance to King Jesus exclusive of allegiance to any worldly power.
Christian Reactions to Injustice
00:21:51
Speaker
Regardless of whether that power is doing things that we consider to be good or bad, nothing in the letter of Romans works to assess the empire against some kind of a godly standard, then determine which parts Christians should support and which they should resist.
00:22:05
Speaker
The emphasis is on the church doing what the church is supposed to do. That's it. So if we look at our own context today, when Christians see nations going to war or committing violence against their own people, what should our response be here?
00:22:19
Speaker
i would say, first of all, this shouldn't surprise us. This sort of behavior is exactly what worldly powers have always and will always do. This is simply a pattern of fallen humanity seeking self-preservation.
00:22:31
Speaker
So we can trust that Jesus will return one day to set everything right, and the powers of the world will continue to be at war until that day arrives. This kind of violence doesn't threaten our hope.
00:22:42
Speaker
It actually reminds us why it's so important. Secondly, we should look for opportunities to love our neighbors and our enemies, even at our own expense. We need to witness to the world in our refusal to denigrate, hate, and divide. Yeah.
00:22:57
Speaker
We should take the attitude of Jesus, who loved and prayed even for those who are committing violence against him. Father, forgive them. They don't understand. also think it's important that we seek to embrace our prophetic role as the church.
00:23:11
Speaker
We need to speak out against injustice and the denigration of humans wherever we encounter it. Right. It's so important to tie point number three here to your point number one, which is we do trust, we do hope for a restored world.
00:23:24
Speaker
Christians have always affirmed that Jesus is going to return someday and and restore all things. That comes off to our neighbors as just pie-in-the-sky weirdo theology.
00:23:35
Speaker
And it has no real conviction unless it's experienced to some degree or another in the here and now in the community of Christ. When we, by the Spirit of God, invite people into a loving community that welcomes, that stands up against injustice, that meets the needs of the world, that restores the world in some small microcosm, then our preaching about the future world that is all of those things has so much more conviction.
00:24:03
Speaker
I think what you're describing here is a very political approach in the sense that it's involved in the events of the world. now it's not political in the normal sense in that it doesn't fixate on trying to justify or vilify the powers of the world in what they're doing.
00:24:19
Speaker
It's not subject to some kind of a tribalistic fight for power. It's like Paul describes in Romans 13.
Worldly Authorities in God's Plan
00:24:26
Speaker
God can use worldly authorities to bring about his vengeance, his ecthikos,
00:24:30
Speaker
while recognizing that even when he does so, those worldly powers are still acting in ways that the church must resist. The community of believers is called to be the people who leave room for God's vengeance instead of seeking to bring it about themselves. Yeah, yeah.
00:24:45
Speaker
So Christians may and will disagree about where and when God is at work bringing about his justice in the world. And when violence is just worldly powers doing their things. Yeah.
00:24:56
Speaker
But at the end of the day, those discussions don't actually change the proper Christian response. Isaiah 10 discusses the Assyrian who is the rod of God's wrath, bringing about his punishment on Israel.
00:25:08
Speaker
But the Assyrian is also judged. Isaiah 10, 5-7 says, Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath. I send him against a godless nation. I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
00:25:28
Speaker
But this is not what he intends. This is not what he has in mind. His purpose is to destroy, to put an end to many nations. So even when the rulers of worldly powers are being used by God as agents of his punishment, the rod of his anger, the intention of those rulers can be evil. Their purpose is to destroy.
00:25:47
Speaker
which is against God's plan for the whole of creation. This is almost like evil violence eating itself or suffering its own consequences, which is consistent with how God's justice ends up being worked out in like Paul's theology in Romans 1, for example.
00:26:03
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's easy when we look at the violence in the world today to just try to determine whether God is at work or if the violence is just the violence of humans doing what their prideful hearts want to do, seeking to destroy one another.
00:26:17
Speaker
It's important that we remember that both of those things can be true at the same time. The better question is, what are we called to do? Well, we're called to imitate Jesus, to witness to that new kingdom, love our neighbor and leave room for God's vengeance.
00:26:30
Speaker
You need to see the circle of violence as that self-consuming, never-ending cycle that it is. Yeah, and going back to Paul's theology in Romans 1 of God's vengeance working itself out in the world, remember that it's God's removal of his kind of gracious hand on things.
00:26:50
Speaker
God's allowing the most violent impulses of humans to work itself out in the world and to have its consequences. Like, that is God's judgment. So it doesn't make any sense to say, oh, the Christian response now, the Christian church is actually supposed to hop on board with those powers doing those violent things. That's a sign of God's removing his hand, so to speak.
00:27:13
Speaker
We should have no part in that, even though that working itself out ends up working toward God's final plan. we're certainly not supposed to embrace and encourage that vengeance, the cycle of violence to continue and to strengthen and to crush more and more human lives.
00:27:34
Speaker
It may be that God deems it best to allow that to happen on occasion and to sort of remove his hand and let humans do what they do and have their consequences.
Healing Presence Amidst Violence
00:27:45
Speaker
But our call in the midst of that, when that does happen, is not to join it. We are to still stand up against it and to, in fact, embody what restored human community is supposed to look like. To be a healing balm in the midst of those violent cycles. They're just destroying everything around us.
00:28:04
Speaker
It may be that we are the very thing that ends some of those cycles from continuing on and on and on. We will never have a part in ending the cycle of violence if we're on the hamster wheel spinning it.
00:28:42
Speaker
There is a common pushback here to that idea that I think is important to address. And it's usually phrased something like, what about the case of a clear and obvious evil, like an attempted genocide? Shouldn't Christians take up violence to protect the innocent?
00:28:56
Speaker
I think the underlying concern here is, what are we to do when our call to care for the innocent and our call to follow the ethic of Jesus don't seem compatible?
Balancing Non-violence and Protection
00:29:06
Speaker
Yeah, that's a real question.
00:29:08
Speaker
At some point, all of us are probably so bothered by injustice that we just want to take action, even violent action. It's a very human response. And it feels very justified, too.
00:29:20
Speaker
Some perpetrators are just that bad. And it's not to take away from how evil they can be. That sense that violence can and should be used for good is something I feel deeply inside of myself. And I'm sure going wrestle with that to the day I die.
00:29:37
Speaker
When I look at scripture, what I see is that we are called to trust that vengeance is God's. We're called to trust that we're to imitate Jesus and that Jesus will bring about his perfect justice.
00:29:48
Speaker
Even though it won't always be clear to us how that obedience to his teachings and that final justice are connected. I see that Christian transformation in the world is about bringing humans into the new humanity.
00:30:02
Speaker
It's not always about minimizing evil in the short term. I'm glad you said this. It is a long game that we're called to play here. And again, that that is not to take away from the atrocities that happen daily you know in the short term and wanting to make some acute change by use of force.
00:30:23
Speaker
However, I think when we get outside the ethics of Christ, the life that Jesus demonstrated, we're playing with fire because who's to say that our violence that we enact real quick to try to put an end to violence won't turn itself into something worse down the road and keep this thing going so that innocent lives who aren't affected right now will be affected by the result of our own seeking of vengeance.
00:30:48
Speaker
You can play this out historically if you want to and actually provide possible examples of the linkage, but I don't need to prove the point. It's just to say we're called to trust in God's way and the way of Jesus and to not pursue these fleshly means.
00:31:02
Speaker
And I tend to believe that it is the case that faithfulness to Christ will long-term have the effect of quenching some of those forces of vengeance and destruction.
00:31:14
Speaker
If you look at Jesus' life and his death, I think it would have been easy to claim that he could have done so much more to limit the evil around him and to protect the innocent in his life if he'd formed a vigilante or a rebellion group.
00:31:27
Speaker
Yeah. The Jews were just a few decades away from experiencing horrible persecution and mass murder at the hands of Rome. Yeah. Jesus' disciples and many Christians suffered horrible deaths at the hands of Rome.
00:31:39
Speaker
But Jesus committed his life to his mission, to demonstrating self-sacrificial love. And he called his disciples to follow his example. He doesn't leave a detailed description of how exactly that obedience that he calls them to is going to contribute to the final restoration, but he calls them to trust that it will.
00:31:58
Speaker
yeah The other common pushback to this idea is what about the commands to violence in the Old Testament? All right now you open the real can of worms, man. The thought process usually goes like this.
00:32:10
Speaker
The New Testament doesn't give a whole lot of guidance to Christians for handling political power because it was written to people who didn't have any. So when Christians can wield political power, they should look to God's instructions for ancient Israel, because they were a political entity, for wisdom and how to use that power.
00:32:26
Speaker
God commanded Israel to use violence, both in war and in their civil punishments. So this should serve as guidance for how Christians should do so when they also have access to that political power. Yeah, this a common interpretive thread so far.
00:32:39
Speaker
This approach, I think, relies really heavily on the idea that the church, or the kingdom of God, isn't really a political entity here and now.
Jesus’ Example of the Cross
00:32:46
Speaker
So Jesus' teachings are really only applicable to individual ethics.
00:32:50
Speaker
So this approach would reason that when Christians have the chance to use political power, they need to look beyond Jesus' teachings for something relevant. know Falling into one of those categories we talked about in the last episode. Yeah. think it's really important that we reflect on what role Jesus plays in shaping our worldview.
00:33:07
Speaker
Yeah. How much preeminence are we going to give Christ? How radical of a revelation was Christ? Can we stomach how different the world is through his lens? I think it's helpful just to start with Jesus in his own context first.
00:33:21
Speaker
And I think the most radical departure in Jesus' ministry from kind of the Jewish messianic expectations was that he took up a cross rather than a sword. This kind of shocking rejection of typical political power in choosing the cross is the example that Christians are called to follow.
00:33:37
Speaker
This is what was so surprising about Messiah Jesus. Yeah, whoever is not willing to take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Quite literally, the example. There's a lot of good discussion to be had about kind of the continuity with the Hebrew Bible and then the new revelation of Jesus.
00:33:54
Speaker
When Christians look to God's commands for Israel for allowance of violence, I think we're rejecting a central and distinctive element of Jesus' teachings and his call.
Repentance and Allegiance
00:34:04
Speaker
When Jesus came, he preached repentance.
00:34:07
Speaker
And the context for that repentance is this new kingdom. Matthew 4, 17, repent for the kingdom of heaven has come near. Repentance is a political idea.
00:34:18
Speaker
It includes a radical shift in allegiance and attitude toward the power structures of this world. It's a shift that's central in the calling to follow Jesus. Christians recognize many changes that were brought about by Jesus.
00:34:31
Speaker
He demands a whole new way of viewing the world. We recognize that many of the commands to ancient Israel were culturally and covenantally bound. We should be very careful not to use commands for Israel as an excuse to dismiss or minimize these radical teachings of Jesus. Right, because that is just not giving Christ preeminence.
00:34:50
Speaker
This is really important. It's a worthy thing to think about. It really is. i've just recently had a conversation with someone about this, and in the course of conversation, it became really clear to me that he had a very different understanding of what it means to view Christ as the final revelation of God, or Christ as having preeminence, I would say.
00:35:11
Speaker
He was mixing and mashing a bit. He, of course, likes Jesus and, you know, has no problems with his teachings. But he thought it justified to appeal to other parts of Scripture, in the Hebrew Bible, for example, and effectively override some of the teachings of Christ.
00:35:28
Speaker
It's a crisis that I think evangelical Christians are dealing with right now, and people are coming to very different conclusions. But I think it's a question that needs to be front and center in the formation of our theology now and on into the future.
Christ as Final Revelation
00:35:43
Speaker
Does Christ have preeminence? Do we go with his way, even if that causes all kinds of questions to be asked about the Hebrew Bible, about the ancient Israelite story?
00:35:55
Speaker
And about the nature of our relationship with the powers of the world. Yeah. and no And about the nature of God himself. My fear is that today when we try to accept Jesus, but then we reject this distinctive part of his calling, that we're kind of just making him out to be a wandering philosopher. That's it. Yeah. So we can cling to our worldly kingdoms for comfort and power.
00:36:16
Speaker
When we look at a world full of messages, people and nations who are all fighting for influence and for power, our standard to determine what we follow is the example of Christ.
00:36:27
Speaker
Yeah, it's simple, and that's why I am unwilling to budge from this. Christ as final revelation of God, Christ as ethical paradigm, the cross as one of the best expressions of that ethical paradigm, to start there and to end there and to allow that paradigm shift to raise all kinds of other complicated questions, but then not seek answers outside the person of Christ.
00:36:53
Speaker
I think that is what it means to be a Christian. It's a quite simple way to look at our faith. We look to Jesus of Nazareth, we listen and obey his teachings, and we follow in his example.
00:37:05
Speaker
And that's it. 1 Peter 2, 21-25 To this you were called because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his steps. He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.
00:37:18
Speaker
When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate. When he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness.
00:37:34
Speaker
By his wounds you have been healed, for you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the shepherd and overseer of your souls.