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The Apocalyptic Son of Man - When?
81 Plays1 year ago
“When will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” Jesus’ answer to these questions has been a hotbed of debate. Is Jesus speaking about events that occurred in Rome’s sacking Jerusalem, or further beyond to another day of judgment? How can Jesus be certain that “this generation” won’t pass away until these things have happened, and say that no one knows the hour or the day that it will occur, not even the son? Nick and Matt discuss some ways people have tried to make sense of his answer. Although the specifics of his "coming" are tricky, the most important truths about the Son of Man are made crystal clear in the New Testament: he’s already been vindicated as the true ruler of the world. To recognize this reality and to live in light of it is all that is left to do.
Resources: Reflections on the ‘Son of Man’: Implications for a Christian Transformational Worldview by Randal Bush, Church History by Eusebius of Caesaria (c. 263 – c. 339 CE), The Jewish War by Flavius Josephus (c. 37 – c. 100 CE), The New Testament and the People of God, Jesus and the Victory of God by N.T. Wright.
Interlude Music: Breaths by AGST
Theme Song: Believe by Posthumorous
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Transcript
Vision of the Vindicated Son of Man
00:00:00
Speaker
It's the Reparadine podcast and it's part two of the apocalyptic Son of Man. When is the vision of the vindicated Son of Man fulfilled? Well, it depends on who you think the Son of Man is, but if it's Jesus of Nazareth, the New Testament has an answer.
00:00:33
Speaker
words, when is the vindication and enthronement of the Son of Man, whom we claim to be identified with Jesus of Nazareth? It must be an important question because who, what, and why got its own podcast and when gets its own episode here?
00:00:46
Speaker
Yeah, I really think it is because it touches on some important eschatological questions or like end times type questions that Christians debate about. And there's also a really thorny problem that we're going to talk about as well, and that is the delay of the parousia or the delay of the coming of Jesus. Again, it should be said too that we're coming at this from a Christian perspective.
Enthronement and Crucifixion of Jesus
00:01:04
Speaker
We're taking the theology of the Gospel accounts interpretation of the life and ministry of Jesus and the answer the New Testament authors give us.
00:01:12
Speaker
The Son of Man, Jesus of Nazareth, was enthroned as the king of the world in his death, resurrection, and ascension. Matthew 10, 23. And whenever they persecute you in this town, flee to another. For truly I say to you, you will never finish going through the towns of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
00:01:29
Speaker
Okay, so the Son of Man is going to come in glory. Again, that's the language of Daniel 7. So when we read Son of Man coming, we can just think, oh, the enthronement, the vindication of this figure. That's Daniel 7 language. He's gonna come in that Daniel 7 language. He's gonna be vindicated before his disciples get through all the towns of Israel on their mission. Interesting. Matthew 16, 27 and 28.
00:01:52
Speaker
For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and at that time he will reward each one according to what he has done. Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will never experience death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." Okay, so some of the people in front of Jesus in his ministry were going to see the Son of Man enthroned or vindicated before their death. So there's a sense of imminency. It's like, when is this going to happen?
00:02:19
Speaker
Consider the broader literary intentions of the gospel writers and their record of the Passion of Jesus as well. We start to see an answer here. He comes into Jerusalem on a horse like a king. People are lauding him as the king. A crown is even put on his head. Purple, the color of royalty is put on him, and he's lifted up.
Stephen's Vision and Evidence of Enthronement
00:02:38
Speaker
Enthronement language, not on a throne though, but on the cross. And the inscription above his head calls him the king.
00:02:45
Speaker
This is the creative way that the Synoptic Gospels present Jesus as the true ruler of the cosmos, not by the cowardly killing of his enemies, but by lovingly and boldly letting them kill him. Luke 22, 69 and 70. From now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God. So they all said, Are you then the Son of God? And he said to them, You say that I am.
00:03:10
Speaker
So just to bank on this point here, this is when Jesus is standing before Pilate, and he tells him, from now on, you're going to see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the power of God. In other words, right now, in this moment, that is when I'm going to be ascended to the Father in that Daniel 7 language, in that moment of vindication, that moment of royal enthronement.
00:03:31
Speaker
And of course, what happens right after that is, yes, Jesus being put on the cross and dying. In Acts 7, 55 and 56, we read this last time. But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. And he said, Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.
Judgment and Vindication: Jesus' Return
00:03:52
Speaker
So again, this is when Stephen, one of the early Christians, is being martyred, and he has this vision of Jesus in his present moment already sitting at the right hand of God being enthroned as the Son of Man. So that had already taken place according to the timeline of this account. Revelation 1, 13 through 16.
00:04:11
Speaker
And in the midst of the lampstands, one like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching to the feet and girded around his chest with a golden belt, and his head and hair were white like wool, white as snow, and his eyes were like a fiery flame, and his feet were like fine bronze when it has been fired in a furnace. And his voice was like the sound of many waters, and he had in his right hand seven stars and a sharp double-edged sword coming out of his mouth, and his face was like the sun shining in its strength.
00:04:36
Speaker
We read this last time as well. This is a description of Jesus to the Revelator as he currently was exalted as the Son of Man figure in similar language that we saw in 1 Enoch. So Jesus, the Son of Man, according to the New Testament, has been vindicated and exalted as the King of the Land somehow in his death, resurrection, and ascension.
00:04:58
Speaker
But there's an unavoidable rabbit hole here, and this is what I was talking about. This is where we need to really dive
Prophecy of Jerusalem's Destruction and Return Timing
00:05:04
Speaker
in. In the coming of the Son of Man language in Daniel, the direction of travel is actually toward the ancient of days, right? It's an ascension to the throne of God, to sit at his right hand.
00:05:15
Speaker
However, in the Olivet Discourse of Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24, Jesus seems to start using this coming of the Son of Man language in a secondary sense as well, namely that the vindicated Son of Man at the right hand of God would also return to the land from the throne of God to judge the wicked and vindicate his people.
00:05:37
Speaker
In Paul, this becomes the hope of the parousia or presence of Jesus, the arrival of King Jesus back to earth. And in modern churchy discourse, this becomes the doctrine of the second coming of Jesus. Which is kind of a surprising idea, because in everything we read from Daniel and Enoch and those other Son of Man passages within all that Jewish literature, they all seem to be looking forward to a single event, a single Son of Man figure who's going to come, who's going to be vindicated, and then his people will be vindicated with him.
00:06:07
Speaker
I didn't see any idea in any of those passages that they expected this to happen over several events or with any big time gaps in there. They kind of imagined a single big event, the coming of the Son of Man.
00:06:18
Speaker
That's true, but it's also not surprising because Jewish prophecy works this way or is used this way pretty often where you have like a prophetic hope and then reflection upon that prophetic hope that expands upon it maybe adds new dimensions to it. There's also practices like Pesher where you'll take two prophetic hopes and kind of put them together or fulfill them in one event. That can also happen with one event being separated into two or some people call this telescoping.
00:06:46
Speaker
So I'm not entirely surprised by that move. But yeah, certainly you don't see this return to the land in the Hebrew Bible or in the Second Temple passages about the vindicated Son of
Olivet Discourse and Temple Prophecy
00:06:56
Speaker
Man. yeah So here's where we get to the thorny problem. This has made theologians pull their hair out in connection to the Olivet Discourse here.
00:07:04
Speaker
The problem is that probably the most straightforward reading of the Olivet Discourse would lead you to think that Jerusalem will be destroyed within a generation of Jesus, and that Jesus, as the vindicated Son of Man, will also return to the land at the same time. The first thing happened, of course, in 17 of the Common Era, but the latter did not. Jesus didn't return to the land unless I'm missing something.
00:07:29
Speaker
Like I said, theologians call this the problem of the delay of the parousia, which means presence or arrival in Greek. Now, I think we can read most of the Olivet Discourse as having already been fulfilled as the words of Jesus predict.
00:07:44
Speaker
He was right about the desecration and the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem in 7D of the Common Era, and I think we can and perhaps should actually read the coming of the Son of Man bits as a euphemism for the Son of Man's vindication. As N. T. Wright suggests, I'll demonstrate this strategy a little bit as we go through it.
00:08:03
Speaker
However, I do think it's hard to maintain this strategy of taking all of the Coming of the Son of Man comments as only being about the Son of Man's vindication to the right hand of God, particularly when you get to the end of the Olivet Discourse and on into the parables of Matthew 25. You'll see what I mean, I think, as we go. Let's just take the highlights of the Olivet Discourse. I'm not intentionally leaving anything
Disciples' Inquiries on Prophecy
00:08:26
Speaker
out here. We're just skipping through for the sake of time. And let's use the version of it as recorded in Matthew's Gospel.
00:08:40
Speaker
So the first few verses of the Olivet Discourse, Matthew 24, 1-3. And as Jesus went out of the temple courts, he was going along, and his disciples came up to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered and said to them, Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone will be left here on another stone that will not be thrown down.
00:09:00
Speaker
And as he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came up to him privately, saying, Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? So their question is twofold. When will the temple be destroyed, as Jesus suggests, and what will be the sign of Jesus' coming at the end of the age?
00:09:19
Speaker
And that second question is ambiguous. Do they mean you're coming, as in you're coming into the throne of God, into your vindication, into your rulership? You know, maybe. Or are they talking about your coming back to us? That part's ambiguous, actually. But it is a twofold question. But they do seem to be linked here. They're they're asking, like, when will this happen? And then when will this happen? They seem to be assuming that it's going to happen at the same time. I could be
Historical Context: Roman Siege of 70 AD
00:09:44
Speaker
mistaken there. Yeah. Well, ah Matthew certainly pushed the two questions right together.
00:09:47
Speaker
Right, exactly. They also understand that when the temple is destroyed and the Son of Man comes, it will be the end of the world as they know it, the end of the age, right? This is actually kind of normal language that's not a strange thing for them to say. Yeah, when you consider how central the temple and temple functions were to Jewish identity, it's a little easier to start understanding how a destruction of that specific building would very much be the end of an age for that people.
00:10:10
Speaker
Right. It's a little anachronistic, I think, for us to think they are asking what we understand to be the end of the age, because when we say the end of the age in theological jargon, we mean the eschatological end of all things of all time before the new creation. I don't know if we can download all of that into what they're thinking here. I just think, yeah, if the temple is destroyed, it's the end of the age. It's the end of the world as you know it. Yeah, Giorgia apocalyptic literature will often talk about the end of the age and then what life will be like after the end of the age. Oh of course, yes. The end of an era. Let's see, yeah. Skipping down to verses 15 and 16. So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken about by the prophet Daniel standing in the holy place, let the one who reads understand, then those in Judea must flee to the mountains.
00:10:57
Speaker
That's the key right there, let the one who reads understand, I wish. No, I actually don't think it's all that complex, to be honest with you. When you see this sign, when the temple is dishonored, in other words, something like when Antiochus Epiphanes profaned the temple, you know, a few generations ago, when you see something like that, run.
00:11:16
Speaker
This is, of course, how events played out, actually, historically speaking, during the Jewish-Roman War, around 70, when the Roman military, led by Titus, laid siege to Jerusalem. In Book 6 of the Jewish Wars, the contemporary Jewish historian Phlebius Josephus recounts the dishonoring of the temple and the temple complex during the Roman siege. Eusebius actually records rebel Jews, the zealots, as the cause for the pollution of the temple.
00:11:42
Speaker
They set up a military-style base in the temple complex and they murdered several people on the temple grounds, and one guy named John even melted down some of the golden vessels of the temple to pay his soldiers. Josephus says in book 6 chapter 2, all the space round about within the temple might be compared to a burying ground. So great was the number of the dead bodies therein.
00:12:05
Speaker
Josephus even has Titus scolding these rebel Jews saying, you pernicious villains, why do you trample upon dead bodies in this temple? And why do you pollute this holy house with the blood of both foreigners and Jews themselves? So suffice it to say, this is a fairly vivid description of the profaning of the temple, right?
00:12:24
Speaker
And it seems like this is exactly what Jesus is warning about here, according to Matthew, a profaning that would be followed shortly by complete destruction. Yeah, if you knew events like that were coming, and you were wise, you would run. Exactly. That's why Jesus warns, when you see this, run for it.
00:12:41
Speaker
There's good evidence that followers of Jesus actually took his advice here.
Fulfillment of Son of Man's Arrival
00:12:45
Speaker
This is interesting, the third or fourth century church historian Eusebius actually comments on large groups of Christians following Jesus's advice here and fleeing from Jerusalem to Pella across the Jordan River. Epiphanius of Salamis reaffirms this same thing in his account in the fourth century. Back to the Olivet Discourse here, let's skip to 27 and 28.
00:13:06
Speaker
for just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. So the Son of Man's vindication will be as obvious as lightning in the sky. The corpses and the vultures that feed on them will be the towel, will be the sign. When you see them, you'll know that the Son of Man indeed has been vindicated. Verses 29 through 31. And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. And the stars will fall from the heaven and the powers of heaven will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven.
00:13:44
Speaker
And then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man arriving in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect together from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other end of it." this side of the Son of Man appearing in heaven and his arriving on the clouds of heaven, we can and perhaps should continue to read this as his arriving into the heavens, into the throne of God, as being vindicated and exalted. We're not actually forced to, and in fact it might be incorrect, to read this as his arriving back on earth, yet at this point
00:14:21
Speaker
Part of the reason why I say that too is just to be consistent with the Daniel language and to be consistent with the first Enoch language. This is what's going on. In addition to that, though, when he sends out his angels or better in Greek is just messengers. When he sends them out with a loud trumpet call and they gather his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
00:14:42
Speaker
I'm really convinced that the book of Acts sees itself
Vindication through Temple's Destruction
00:14:45
Speaker
as fulfilling this part here. And so that's another reason why I actually think we're supposed to continue to think of this as his arriving into the throne room of God as the vindicated Son of Man. Let me clarify here. Are you saying he's talking about the events of 70 AD? He's using this term, the coming of the Son of Man, not to describe some kind of a going or arriving to a new place, but the coming of the Son of Man is just a way of Jesus saying, that's when I'll be vindicated.
00:15:12
Speaker
Yeah, or that's when I'll be proven to be vindicated when these events take place. The old system is out, the new system is in, I'm the king of the land, and the proof of that is when the old system goes away.
00:15:23
Speaker
Remember N.T. Wright's quote that I mentioned last time? How he says, the coming of the Son of Man is good first century metaphorical language for two things, the defeat of the enemies of the true people of God and the vindication of the true people themselves. So when you see that term, you don't necessarily have to believe that Jesus is coming or going somewhere.
00:15:44
Speaker
Yeah, you don't have to press it for literalness, certainly. The vision of the apocalyptic son of man was that he arrives in the throne room of God and sits down at the right hand of God of the ancient of days. But I don't think we need to be pressing this coming language to like really figure out where exactly he's traveling to and from and how fast. I mean, it's not even clear where the throne room of God is. Is that even a locket of question? Like, can we conceive of such things?
00:16:09
Speaker
It's kind of interesting we sometimes today we use the phrase like he arrived or a person arrives the same sort of way. Yeah, OK, thanks for bringing this up because, yeah, yeah, in Greek, you know, this the the Greek word erikomai is ambiguous. It means arriving. It means traveling. It doesn't tell you what way you're going. You can come or you can go and you can use the same word. So it's the same word that can mean come or go or arrive or move or traverse something like that. I didn't even mean like that. I mean, sometimes we will use it almost as like a term of vindication.
00:16:40
Speaker
If a quarterback of a team is playing poorly and fans don't believe in him, you know they've lost hope. But that quarterback then comes out and has a couple key games, makes the key throws and finds success. He has arrived. yeah It's a way of describing somebody finding success. Yeah. Occupying the place of honor that we all wished they would occupy and they hadn't yet, but now they have. They have arrived. They've arrived.
00:17:03
Speaker
Now that's good, that's good. So back to all the discourse here. When the Son of Man's vindicated, he's gonna send out his messengers to all the world to be heralds of his vindication. And this is, like I said, I think what Acts two in the whole book of Acts is all about, the message of the Son of Man's authority, the gospel of his kingship, going out to all the nations in fulfillment of these words, verses 33 through 35.
00:17:27
Speaker
When you see all these things, know that He is near at the door. Truly, I say to you that this generation will never pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." and Okay, so as we suspected, the Son of Man's vindication and arrival at the throne of God will happen soon from Jesus' vantage point here. During the lifetime, as we already saw, of these people He's speaking to, we already assumed this because of the way Jesus addresses them.
00:17:55
Speaker
he tells them to keep watch and pay attention. If he was talking about some far off future event, it would be really off to tell the people in front of him to watch for these things.
Apocalyptic Language in Prophecy
00:18:07
Speaker
They asked him a question and he's responding to that and telling them, you guys pay attention.
00:18:12
Speaker
Because when they see the temple desecrated and destroyed in their lifetime, that will be the sign that he the son of man has been vindicated as being in the right and the religious rulers and indeed even the city of Jerusalem in a kind of backwards sort of way, it had become unfaithful and was in the wrong.
00:18:31
Speaker
But he sort of makes it crystal clear when he tells them this generation, in other words 30-40 years, will not pass until all these things that I've spoken of have taken place. Which is another reason again why I think we probably are to take this coming of the Son of Man language as generic for vindication language.
00:18:50
Speaker
So it kind of feels like to this point in the Olivet Discourse, as long as you're tuned in to Jewish apocalyptic ways of describing things, everything here is clearly referring to things that have happened within a generation of Jesus' death and resurrection.
00:19:04
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. It all fits. There's no problem yet. Yet. Yet. I will say though, you you might already be confused at this point if you're not familiar with the Jewish apocalyptic manner of speech and particular vision of the apocalyptic son of man, which is why we took the time to talk about that on the last episode. Yeah, moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from heaven.
00:19:25
Speaker
Yeah, if you're coming into this and trying to read this as like a Western modern document or something like that, yeah, you'll you'll literally be looking for the moon to not shed its light, etc, etc. That's not how you're supposed to read this fantastical language. We described how to read apocalyptic literature in the last episode. This fantastical language is intentional, and it is to heighten your sense of imagination, wonder, maybe fear, but it's not to be pressed for literalness.
00:19:53
Speaker
This type of language is used actually all the time, not only in the technically apocalyptic genre sections of the Hebrew Bible, but it's just used in the prophetic material. In fact, the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians is also described with this cosmic type of language as well. It's a normal way of describing these kind of earth-shaking events from the perspective of the Hebrew authors and writers.
00:20:16
Speaker
So back to the Olivet Discourse again, verses 32 through 35. now learn the parable from the fig tree whenever its branch was already become tender and puts forth its leaves you know that summer is near so also you when you see all these things know that he is near at the door truly i say to you that this generation will never pass away
Linking Jesus' Return and Jerusalem's Fall
00:20:33
Speaker
until all these things take place heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away Though he didn't seem to know exactly when it was all gonna happen, he was confident it was going to come swiftly, and the destruction would be severe. This is, like we said, exactly what happened. So, so far, this is all well and good, but you'll start to notice the problem emerging here. Jesus may well have been vindicated by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 in a way,
00:21:01
Speaker
But he certainly didn't return to the land as the vindicated son of man when these events took place. That's a problem in part because Jesus does start to seem to link the two to the destruction of Jerusalem. Not only his vindication is being enthroned next to the ancient of days, but also
00:21:35
Speaker
So, Matthew 24, 36 and following. But concerning that day and hour, no one knows, not even the angels of heaven nor the sun, except the Father alone. For just as the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered into the ark, and they did not know anything until the deluge came and swept them all away.
00:21:57
Speaker
So also the coming of the Son of Man will be. Then there will be two men in the field, one will be taken, and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill, one will be taken, and one left. Therefore be on the alert, because you do not know what day your Lord is coming. But understand this, that if the master of the house had known what watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake, and would not have let his house be broken into. For this reason you also must be ready, because the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not think he will come.
00:22:23
Speaker
Who, then, is the faithful and wise slave, whom the master has put in charge of his household slaves to give them their food at the right time? Blessed is that slave whom his master will find so doing when he comes back. Again, you start to see this idea of the return of the Lord represented by the master kind of as judge. And it would be a little bit weird to then see the Romans coming into the land as being equivalent with the Lord returning to the land and judging. It just starts to be difficult, I guess, to press this all into being fulfilled in 70 when the Romans came to town.
00:22:58
Speaker
Again, Jesus didn't literally return to the land as judge, as these verses seem to indicate would happen. And that's the problem. Perhaps you could get theologically creative and say that via the spirit-filled church, the the church functions as the judge of the world, or the Romans somehow coming into Jerusalem and destroying it functioned as the Lord judging.
00:23:22
Speaker
Maybe. I mean, in the Old Testament that kind of happened. Cyrus came to town and and Cyrus is called God's anointed one for those purposes. Yeah, Babylon and Assyria function as God's tools of judgment. Right. It could be the case. I still find the language a little bit hard to get there. Perhaps we are obliged to make this interpretive leap and to read it that way. I'm not sure. It's worth considering.
00:23:45
Speaker
Again, as you get into this kind of second half of the Olivet Discourse and then into the parables in Matthew 25 that follow immediately after this, it definitely leads you to thinking that Jesus is describing events that go beyond what would have happened in this first generation after his death and resurrection. I really read those and I think, okay, yeah, there's clear connections here to things that are still in the future for us as modern day readers.
00:24:08
Speaker
Yeah, there's so much of that language in Matthew 25 in those parables of Jesus returning as judge. I don't know. It's really hard for me to just see those all as like the Romans functioning as Jesus returning as judge. Yeah, it's tough. Let us know what you think. Read them yourself. I find it tough to read it that way. Yeah, because you get the parables where he's talking about the separation of the goats and the sheep and a lot of language that I think is very clearly connected to some sort of a final judgment.
00:24:37
Speaker
Not only judgment, there's actually like reward for the faithful. Well, where did the reward for the faithful come in 70 AD? There was no reward. Jesus says, skied at a lot of town and like save yourself by the skin of your teeth. Great advice. I wouldn't call a losing your house, home, way of life, the reward. Thank God for your life, of course, but that doesn't seem like the reward for faithfully following Jesus, right?
00:25:03
Speaker
Yeah, it's a pretty measly reward. Yeah, I think so. So to your point, yeah, you get into Matthew 25, and there's that reward language. And it's just tough to see that all as 7080. It's funny going through these gold chapters in Matthew, because this first section of 24, it's like, all right, that one's easy. Understand this through an apocalyptic worldview. Like, cool, this all happened in 7080. If you go into the parables of Matthew 25, it's like, oh, this is clearly future
Four Views on Prophecy Fulfillment
00:25:26
Speaker
judgment.
00:25:26
Speaker
Then you go to that second half of 24. You get kind of like this transition zone. It's like, oh, I'm not quite sure where to put this section. And the author isn't obviously transitioning you either. That's part of the problem. Perhaps he is, but he's not making that obvious that that's what he's doing.
00:25:44
Speaker
So there's the problem. I hope we've raised the tension a little bit because it is a real problem. And there's probably four main ways that this problem is addressed. There's the futurist view. Now you would basically say that the whole of the Olivet Discourse is all about future events.
00:26:00
Speaker
I think this view doesn't know or acknowledge or care about the Jewish apocalyptic genre or worldview or is unfamiliar with Daniel 7, 1st Enoch. It's like an ignorant kind of view that would download this all into future events. And it also seems like ignorant of historical events in 7080.
00:26:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's super strange to think Jesus would have told his audience and his disciples, you're going to see this temple destroyed and it's going to happen in this generation. And then within a generation, the temple's destroyed, but for us to be like, no, no, no, no, that wasn't what Jesus was talking about.
00:26:30
Speaker
And it also creates a big problem because Jesus tells them, within a generation, all this stuff's gonna happen. And then you have to do interpretive backflips and aerials and side flips and being like, what he means by within a generation is within the generation of some future timeline. and When Jesus is saying you and you watch, you do this, he's referring to a future you, not the you of the people right in front of him. So you just have to make the clear things in the text, the obscure things in the text. and the hyperbolic apocalyptic portions of the text, the literal portions of the text. It does weird things. I think it's unfaithful. I think there's no merit to it. It's interesting though, because without any understanding of the history around 70 AD or the apocalyptic literature that you've gone through, that is actually kind of an easy way to read this passage.
00:27:17
Speaker
If you're willing to play games with Jesus telling them you guys pay attention and you're willing to play games with Jesus saying within a generation, if you're willing to play games with those two things, the futurist view works and it solves all the problems. You just have to have your fingers in your ears.
00:27:35
Speaker
Yeah, and you start to have to play games with the clear things in the text and then literalizing the obscure and apocalyptic and kind of fantastical things in the text. It's an odd sort of move. Yeah. Well, having gone through the Son of Man passages in Second Temple literature and then seeing the stuff Jesus is doing here, that illuminates some of these passages so clearly. The Futurist view kind of goes, oh yeah, but you got to like cover them back up and like, you got to get rid of that context.
00:28:00
Speaker
Stick it all in the future as some literal fulfillment that'll fix our problems. If only it were that easy. You gotta to play games at the clear stuff if that's what you're willing to do. And you gotta ignore the background. And you gotta ignore the actual history of the events and how things took place. I'm unwilling to do that. So for my money, the futurist view has no merit
Resolution of Prophecy Issues
00:28:20
Speaker
here. Okay, so that's one door we can eliminate.
00:28:24
Speaker
The second way, this is probably the most popular way in scholarship to deal with the problem, and that is just to say it's a failed prophecy. Jesus's prophecy of his coming again failed. He did think he was going to return imminently in and around the events of 70 AD, and he just didn't.
00:28:43
Speaker
This is the objection by Albert Schweitzer and basically all critical scholarship until now. And this neatly explains the problem. The only problem with it is it's hard to maintain this view for like someone who's faithful or someone who regards the scriptures as being, you know, from God or regards Jesus as not being able to make this type of predictive mistake.
00:29:06
Speaker
Yeah, if this had just been a prophecy given by some other failed Messianic hopeful in first century Judea. I think that would obviously be the easy way to read it. Just like, yeah, expected something to happen that didn't happen the way he said it was going to.
00:29:19
Speaker
right So if you're confessional or if you affirm Jesus is Lord and kind of have an affirmation of Orthodox-ish or small O Christian theology, then this view is hard to have, though it does explain things very well. I wonder if it is possible to incorporate this view with a faithful Christian conviction by explaining the failed prophecy or whatever, as simply Jesus being ignorant of how events would play out in his incarnation.
00:29:49
Speaker
It would be interesting to see someone like press that line of reasoning because it is clear that Jesus subjected himself in the kenosis to a normal human experience, to be limited in normal human capacities. Therefore, his predictive powers, if not given by the Holy Spirit or the Father in that moment, would be limited as a man's were.
00:30:10
Speaker
Well, and he says that in verse 36. Yeah, yeah. About the day and the hour, no one knows, not even the angels of heaven or the Son, except the Father alone. He even says it. He even says like, I don't really know when all these things are going to take place. So that'd be interesting to maybe go down that line of reasoning. I've not really seen a confessional theologian do that. I think that'd be interesting. Someone out there do it. At least give it a shot. See if we can make sense of that.
00:30:34
Speaker
A third way of trying to make sense of the delay of the parousia is the split it apart view. And that is kind of a little bit what we did here, that the first half or most of the Olivet Discourse is about like the present things to Jesus at his time and place and the things upcoming in that generation.
00:30:52
Speaker
But then the last part of the Olivet Discourse and into, you know, Matthew 25, there's kind of a transition where he starts to talk in the same terms, in the same ways of speaking about future events far off. So where this approach seems kind of difficult is in the fact that Jesus seems to just be putting all of this answer in one big block here. So if you're going to say that Jesus is really splitting apart these two questions and he's answering them separately, you'd kind of want to see something more clearly The two questions again being, when will the temple be destroyed and what will be the sign of your coming? You'd kind of like for this view to see Jesus stop and go, okay guys, that's my answer to the first part about the temple. Now I'm going to go ahead and give you an answer about something else that's going to happen at a different time. You don't get that clearly in the text.
00:31:34
Speaker
Now, as the gospel writer, Matthew, if he was writing this at a time where either the destruction of the temple was imminent or had already occurred, and then he's putting these two answers together for his audience, well, it's obvious some of these events are things that have already happened, and then anything that hasn't happened is obviously a future separate event.
00:31:53
Speaker
Yeah, that's what's so interesting about this is this view is helped so much if Matthew is late. If Matthew is written or finalized after the destruction of Jerusalem, then we could see Matthew putting 24 and 25 together and making that switch seamlessly by appealing to, you hey, these are all known events that you guys know about.
00:32:16
Speaker
And then he transitions into talking about future events in a similar sort of way. But in the words of Jesus, he could be arguing, hey, Jesus was right about said things. He's also right about the final judgment. Part of me kind of hopes and prays that Matthew will conclusively be proven to be written later after the destruction of Jerusalem in 7080, because I want this view to be right.
00:32:41
Speaker
All cards on the table, this fixes most of the problems in my opinion. And if Matthew's written late, then this view is even better. And then as like a comfortable Orthodox Christian, small o, the problem is dealt with.
Summary of Prophecy Interpretation
00:32:55
Speaker
yeah I agree. Perhaps we could maybe incorporate the third view here with a fourth and final view. And that would be like the apocalyptic reading, which is also a little bit what we exemplified here.
00:33:07
Speaker
This view would point out kind of fundamentalist futurist readings of apocalyptic imagery. The irony of that reading being bedfellows in their literalism with the modernist liberal failed prophecy view. This view would say that the only way around the problem is to read apocalyptic as apocalyptic. Just take the whole thing as apocalyptic. Don't press it for literalness.
00:33:35
Speaker
Don't press the coming of the Son of Man to mean like the coming back to earth of the Son of Man. Just read it as apocalyptic. And I appeal to that because there's something like true about that. Don't abuse this Olivet Discourse by reading it as a modernistic empiricist would, right? It was never intended to be read that way.
00:33:56
Speaker
Apocalyptic literature, like we said, is not meant to be taken literalistically, so to do so is to actually disrespect the mode of speech that Jesus is using here, and it's thus to mishandle its interpretation.
00:34:11
Speaker
And none of this is at all to say that the doctrine of the second coming of Jesus is in question or something. No, no, no. That's not at all the case here. That's all over the New Testament. The only question is whether or not Jesus is referring to his second coming in the Olivet Discourse. That's the only question we're really discussing here. So I would kind of appeal to this and maybe that split it apart view and try to find some type of resolution in there somewhere.
00:34:38
Speaker
yeah Yeah, that fourth view, that sort of apocalyptic reading that says, oh, well, this is all intended to sort of inspire imagination, yeah would be a lot easier to stomach if Jesus wasn't making specific claims in the middle of this prophecy about you will see all of these things fulfilled within a generation.
00:34:56
Speaker
Yeah, that's where it gets a little tough. yeah But there you have it. Unsatisfying as that is, there is the problem of the delay of the Persea. And if any of you have the answer to this, email us, let us know, come on the podcast and explain. Can I try to recap these four views? The first one is this futurist view that says everything's going to happen in the future. But once you start looking closely at apocalyptic literature and trying to understand Jesus in his context and the historical events that actually happen, this view really doesn't hold up anymore.
00:35:25
Speaker
You could say that this was a failed prophecy view. That Jesus predicted things, some of them happened, but some of them didn't because Jesus was wrong. As a confessional Christian, that one is really not a good option. A little tough. The split-it-apart view is kind of nice because it takes the things in context and in history that happened and says Jesus was talking about those things there. And then the things that didn't happen says, oh, he's talking about future things. But there's no clear indication in the text that we're supposed to understand them separately. Now, maybe if Matthew was written late, then that's not a problem.
00:35:54
Speaker
Right. Or you've got an apocalyptic reading which kind of says, ah, everybody's been asking the wrong questions of this text. We're supposed to just see this as Jesus' inspiring imagination, which is nice, but then some of Jesus' statements in there about the specifics of fulfillment are really hard to understand.
Jesus' Exaltation and Authority
00:36:09
Speaker
It's a great summary. Yeah, you're right. I don't want to end here, though. The delay of the Parisia problem, I find it unsatisfying. I don't know the answer, really. But what I think is important is there is really clear New Testament affirmations, New Testament teaching about the exaltation of Jesus, the Son of Man, as King.
00:36:31
Speaker
And I thought it would be most helpful to dive into those passages as we conclude and let our imaginations be transformed by what is the more clear teachings of the New Testament surrounding the vindication and the exaltation of Jesus the Son of Man.
00:36:46
Speaker
So even if that Olivette discourse leaves us with some question marks around the specifics of how all of these aspects of the coming of the Son of Man are going to be fulfilled, the New Testament speaks with stunning clarity regarding the
00:37:21
Speaker
These New Testament passages don't always say the Son of Man. They will just simply say Jesus. But then notice how well the other language maps on to the exalted Son of Man of Daniel 7 and 1st Enoch and some of these other passages. So in no particular order, 1 Peter 3, 21 and 22. Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven with angels and authorities and powers, having been subjected to him.
00:37:47
Speaker
1 Peter 4, 11. If anyone speaks, let it be as the oracles of God. If anyone serves, let it be as by the strength that God provides, so that in all things God will be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.
00:38:03
Speaker
1 Peter 5, 10, 11. And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered for a short time, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you. To him be the power forever and ever. Amen. Ephesians 1, 19-23.
00:38:20
Speaker
According to his mighty strength, which he has worked in Christ, raising him from the dead, and seating him at the right hand in the heavenly places, above all rule and authority and power, and lordship, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in the coming one. And he subjected all things under his feet, and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of the one who fills all things in every way.
00:38:48
Speaker
Philippians 2, 6, and following, Think this in yourselves, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people, and being found in appearance like a man he humbled himself, by becoming obedient to the point of death that is death on a cross. Therefore God exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name,
00:39:17
Speaker
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth. And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
00:39:30
Speaker
in Revelation 1.5. From Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Revelation 11.15. And the seventh angel blew the trumpet, and there was a loud voice in heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever. That's hard to read without certain a sing, Nick.
00:39:56
Speaker
Yeah, all these passages, you just start to see this emergence of this theology that says Jesus is already on the throne. And as a follower of Jesus, as someone who acknowledges that Jesus is Lord, that means I am acknowledging he's the king overall empire, overall organization, overall politics, overall ethics, over everything now. Not in some future day only.
00:40:24
Speaker
Of course, we believe in some future day when this will be more seen and felt across all the land, but this is a reality in the now, which should form and shape my identity, not least my, let's say, political and national identity.
Political Implications of Jesus' Rulership
00:40:42
Speaker
Jewish expectations for a messiah in the first century were very much political expectations. Through the Jesus event, these political expectations were not forgotten, but rather they're reinterpreted from within the Jewish theological framework. Political conquests such as seen in Joshua was transformed into the self-sacrificial gospel embodiment and advancement we see in Acts.
00:41:09
Speaker
Again, this is political. It's just reframed. It's the in-breaking of God's kingdom. The difference is that it is brought about by means of self-sacrificial love for enemy rather than self-protective elimination of the enemy.
00:41:25
Speaker
Martyrdom is not a failure of the kingdom's power, but it's thought to be the very sign of the kingdom's authenticity. King Jesus is not interested in waging war against empire the way the beasts wage war. People are not the enemy, so why would he harm them to advance his kingdom?
00:41:46
Speaker
The gods of this world, according to Jewish theology, represented by beasts in apocalyptic literature, those are the enemies, the ones that have subjected everything to futility, decay, and death. The only tool that they have left is the fear of death. So when love casts out all fear, as John would say, even that of death, the gods are helpless and their beastly empires are shown to be imputant.
00:42:13
Speaker
The cross demonstrates both the futility and the powerlessness of the gods of this world, and it shows that they no longer have power over the nations. Power that, according to you Deuteronomy 32, they've enjoyed for eons of time. The power grip is crumbling down by cruciform love of the Son of Man and his people.
Followers' Role in Jesus' Vindication
00:42:35
Speaker
I've really been struck going through all this Son of Man stuff.
00:42:38
Speaker
By the way, the son of man was a figure who was also going to embody his followers. His vindication was going to mean the vindication of his followers. but They were going to participate with him in this vindication, in this rise above the beasts. It's amazing how the New Testament uses so much of this language of participation in Jesus. We are buried with him. We rise with him. We rule with him.
00:43:04
Speaker
Yeah, we could have had a whole separate set of passages that just talk about the in-him theology. I think this study of the Son of Man has helped clarify and solidify for me how when we look at the way Jesus was so unique in his interaction with the powers of the world that demands and inspires that we, his followers, seek to participate in that radical way of interacting with the world.
00:43:28
Speaker
And in that imitation of Christ, we become more fully human, because to be human is ideally to be the image of God as you were supposed to be. And in the New Testament, Jesus is called the true image of God. So as we're represented by Him, and as we in fact imitate Him, we become more fully who we were supposed to be, the true image of God, ruling the world well on His behalf.
00:43:55
Speaker
So all this political language and stuff, it is very political. Let's be honest about it, but I think it's important to make a note here why this is not the same and it's in fact opposed to this idea of Christian nationalism.
00:44:10
Speaker
To use the government to force change is to use violence and threat of violence to force change. Government is the organization that has monopolized the legitimate use of violence in a region. It's a pretty standard definition as you like to tell me.
00:44:26
Speaker
Christian nationalism will say, Jesus is king, and will try to use them, the levers of worldly government, aka beasts, to coerce and force, quote unquote, Christian principles upon a culture. This is fundamentally flawed and fundamentally unfaithful to Christian ethics for this reason. Christian ethics demand that we give of self to confront evil.
00:44:51
Speaker
not using force or fear of force as a tool. Christian ethics demand that we model the way in the life of the community, not that we force others to conform to the way. Christian ethics demand that we bear the sins of the world in our bodies, not that we threaten others with violent consequences if they persist in what we deem to be sin.
00:45:14
Speaker
And perhaps most damningly, Christian nationalism presupposes the legitimacy of nationalism, nationhood, and other tribal distinctions, while the kingdom of Jesus calls said legitimacy into question as any type of tribal distinctions that are maintained by violence are not intended by God for creation and will not be part of his world in the future.
00:45:39
Speaker
Read the sermon on the Mount again. Really let it transform your imagination. We talked about some of these passages that describe the Son of Man as being raised above the beasts, this picture of God's intention for humanity, going back to this call in Genesis 1. As Jesus is that vindicated Son of Man and calls his followers to participate with him in that true humanity that is not among the beasts anymore, Christian nationalism feels like an attempt to go grab one of those beasts and put Christian
Allegiance to Jesus and Love Commandment
00:46:11
Speaker
lipstick on it. Yeah, instead of like ruling over the beast by self giving love, you revive the beast and actually try to ride that thing into, I don't know, some version of God's kingdom. Yeah.
00:46:24
Speaker
So in conclusion, the Son of Man has been vindicated and enthroned as the true ruler of the world and his people have been vindicated along with him. May we live in light of this reality and may we never give our allegiance to any system or organization or nation or empire that would demand us to disobey the Son of Man's command. Love your neighbor and love your enemy.
00:47:11
Speaker
Next time on the ReParadign podcast, all about the rapture. Then a conversation with a well-known biblical scholar on what is the true biblical hope for the future.