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Libraries and Diversity: Renate Chancellor on social justice and race in the library profession
22 Plays8 months ago
Renate Chancellor and Mike Fudge discuss diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility (DEIA) in libraries, emphasizing underrepresented groups' contributions. Chancellor highlights her research on Clara Stanton Jones and E.J. Josey, explores libraries' evolving community roles, and addresses challenges like censorship, misinformation, and leadership disparities, advocating for AI literacy and inclusive education.
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Transcript
Introduction and Renata Chancellor's Background
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Hello, everyone, and welcome to another Infovercity, the iSchools podcast here at Syracuse University. Today, I'm with Renata Chancellor and Associate Professor and Associate Dean for Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Accessibility, DEIA, at Syracuse University School of Information Studies. With a PhD from UCLA's Graduate School of Education and Information Studies, she has been a thought leader in DEIA for more than two decades.
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Her work includes publications on critical cultural information studies and social justice in informational contexts. Renana also serves on the editorial board and has consulted with organizations such as the Library of Congress and the State Department. We're thrilled
Introducing 'Breaking Glass Ceilings'
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to have her today to discuss various topics, including her new book, Breaking Glass Ceilings. Welcome, Renana. Thank you, Mike. That was a lovely introduction.
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So how has your semester started out? um Let's talk a little bit about DEIA. Have you haven't had anything going on in the DEI space at the beginning of the semester? Absolutely. Can't talk about it. But it has been a few things over the summer. And some of you are wrapping up this week. That's been d a you played it. we made it. I was thinking more about what was coming out of the provost's office regarding it.
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Uhh... But I think it can be a very challenging position to be in, no doubt. And my hats off to you for agreeing to accept the position here at the high school. It's a very important position, and you're very qualified. Thank you. Let's talk about your book a little bit. So in your book about Claire Stanton Jones, it focuses on her important work in social justice and race in the library profession. How did you decide we're going to book about her?
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Well, actually, this is my second book on a person of color in the library profession.
Documenting Contributions of People of Color
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And so um the reason I use the images for writing about these these biographies or what I call hidden figures is because these people had a large contribution to my work the library profession, but they really haven't been documented. In our field, you hear a lot about, you know, the founder of the profession and you hear about this person who did classification system and all that, but you don't hear about these people who have made, you know, just ginormous contributions, and I wanted to kind of talk about their stories. That's true, because I want to, um the Wikipedia pages of all the former presidents of the ALA, and you know, they sort of mark off like what their, what their significances are. And there's a broad, ah diverse set of um contributions that people have made, whether it's in
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societal changes to libraries or also like things like the Dewey Decimal System, for example. So really, there's a spectrum there. It's very, very interesting. So your other book, who was that? My other my are earlier book is about E.J. Josie.
Historical Advocates for Racial Integration
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He was a huge pioneer in the profession as well. He is really attributed with diversifying the profession in terms of um bringing the ALA together in terms of race.
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So prior to his resolution that he delivered to ALA in 1964, it was really coinciding with the 1964 Civil Rights Act. The profession was kind of divided. It was during the time of Jim Crow that was in the United States. And so American Library Association, just like any other public American public institution, was split along the lines of race. So he authored this resolution, took it to the ALA board, and said,
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you need to be held accountable to um the principles that the LA espoused in terms of like fairness and equity and democracy. So at the time, the profession always always was open to everyone and very democratic. But you have these southern states like Alabama and Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, that wouldn't allow black membership into their state associations. And so he didn't like that.
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he actually was te working in Savannah and Georgia at the time. So he authored his proposal, went to ALA and actually through a lot of wrangling again supported. And so he kind of contributed with that. And
Recognition of Black Women in Libraries
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he did a lot of other great things as well. That's foundational. Yes. well You said that black of women are the backbone of libraries and their work often goes unnoticed.
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What can you do to make sure that that does not continue? And what does that mean exactly? Well, yeah, I'm not even sure if that was my exact quote. But I do think that just black and brown people in the profession are unnoticed. They don't get, their contributions aren't really well discussed in LAS curriculum. They're not written about. And so I do think particularly for black women,
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um there are They are a minority in the library profession. I think the latest and pieces that I can cite to maybe 2023, the profession is predominantly white. I think it's like 82%. And so in terms of blacks, African-Americans that are in the profession is very small. I think like 11% if I'm not mistaken. And so they don't have breakdowns as to if they're women or men. It's just like the African-Americans that are comprised um But a lot of the contribution contributions, like I said, have gone unnoticed. There's other people ah like Claire Stanton Jones who have done other things, um great things in the profession, but they just don't get noticed. So one of the things that I like to do in the classroom is bring forth these stories yeah so that students can hear about, so they can get a well-balanced idea or impression of who's making these contributions to the profession. Can we talk a little bit about
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you met you You brought up a number, and that that is that there's not many African-American students in library of science. Or not many African-American library scientists. Absolutely. Both, right? So that that talks to representation, right? Because libraries are everywhere. And you go to a library, and it might be in an actively diverse neighborhood. And you want people in that library to somewhat represent the people that go to that library, right? So that's why it's important that we try to diversify librarianship. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Addressing the Glass Ceiling for Black Women
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Just trying to make sure I'm on understanding what you were saying. Absolutely. That's really important, I think. Let's talk about the glass ceiling. So you talk about the glass ceiling, um especially for black women in the library world. Have we seen any progress with respect to that glass ceiling? So it's interesting just to kind of give you just a little bit of, or the viewers, a little bit of history.
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So the profession was founded predominantly by white men in the 19th century, 1876. And at that time, it was predominantly about Russia, right? And so that changed once we hit the 20th century. And so women started being involved. And today until today, it is predominantly of female, in fact, of women who are comprised of the Prussia.
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however women are not, there are not that many women in leadership within the profession. That includes women librarians, like library directors, branch managers. It also includes include women directors of LIS programs or ISA. So there's still that huge disparity that exists between men and women. And then if we kind of drove down the war in terms of the race, it means smaller.
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I see, I see. And what do you think we can do about that? Well,
Leadership's Role in Minority Representation
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I think this book actually is one part of doing that. It contributes to that. But also, I think you that it has to come from the leadership. In terms of the schools and universities, they have to want to understand that there that representation that you mentioned earlier is essential, is important.
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And so we they need to make a conscious effort to not only just recruit and not only recruit people of color, but also put mechanisms in place to retain them. And that seems like a responsibility of a school like ours. Yes, absolutely. To find a way to sort of build in a um balance, if you will. Yes. Absolutely. And and also just for schools to have someone looking into this, like creating DIA officers and and deans to help students who come into the school who are represented, they are from an underrepresented population, make them feel comfortable at home, and the same thing with faculty.
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Why isn't there much documented about African-American women's contributions in libraries? That's a great question. That's a great question. That might be the question of the century. It seems like a softball compared to all the other ones. Absolutely. and Let's hear it. It's a loaded question. um I think maybe the effort hasn't really been put forth to do that.
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um I think there's a lot in the field. I think people have different varying interests. And so not everyone is concerned about doing that. Not everyone is concerned about making it a priority. And so and so you know that's why I am writing this book. That's why I do do research in this area. That's why I do give talks on this particular topic. That's why I try to find opportunities to tell stories about it. And that's what I did, I think, with Clara Sten Joseph's story. That's awesome. How would you like to see us, you know, improve? Like I talked about there isn't much documented out there, right? But what ways can we improve that? So that's a great question. I think one way to improve like the doctor um documentation is for
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scholars to write about it, scholars to also to bring it into the classroom that so students are interested. yeah So one of the things that I i do in my IST 511 course that I teach here is that I got the very first foundations course in the program. So when I taught it last year, I have i created this luminary assignment. So students will choose a person who is a luminary.
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and they have to do like a analysis, like a written analysis, and you have to do a presentation. And so there are people of color who they may not have otherwise heard about. You know, rather than hear me talk about all the people of color in the profession, I have them actually do the research and present it. And I think what has come out of that is that students, they are familiar with more people of color and their contribution to the profession.
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And some people some of them have been really interested in doing projects outside of that. So I think that's one thing because you're starting with, you know, I would call like junior scholars, master students, right, who who are interested in the topic. So that's one way I think we could do it. And like I said, the continued research, research in different aspects of their contributions would also be another way to do that. Good, good. Let me ask you a question about your research.
Integrating Social Work in Libraries
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what are you What are you doing right now in your research?
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So I have a couple of projects going on right now. So I received a mini grant looking at investigating social work in public libraries. And so I'm working keep with the doctor our student she had a Shetta Crooks. And this some summer we went to, we're going to be visiting three metropolitan public library to see what they're doing in terms of outreach to help their users with social services. So the summer we went to San Francisco Public Library, we're going to go to D.C. Public Library, and we're going to go to Brooklyn Public Library to kind of see, because these are big metro cities that have a huge problem with homelessness, because that is a huge issue in the field. And so we're what we want to see
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we want to have a better understanding as to what they're doing. And we're looking at this phenomenon of like social work librarian, like social worker, people who have a master's in social work or who do not, but they're working in librarians to help with those issues that patrons or users may come in. But so that's what we're doing. So that's one of the projects that I'm working on. The other project that I'm working on is very preliminary, but I'm looking at this issue of understanding the information role of oh passengers through the Underground Railroad, looking at them from the perspective of like social networks and what they may have, what what was some of the informational aspects?
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aspects so How did they engage with information in order to meet that those passengers through the Underground Railroad during the 18th and 19th centuries? so that's That's a fascinating research topic as well.
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I think I want to go back to something you said about libraries and, you know, you and I both know this, but maybe our audience doesn't, right? Today's library is much different than the convention library, right? it's, it's even different. The community libraries are much different than a school line, right? So can we talk about, I know, because I go to my husband my entire summer in my community,
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So I'm very well aware of what I see going on in that library. There are a lot of services that go well beyond just renting a book or renting a tool. There's training that goes on. There's employment services. There's resume writing services. There's a tremendous amount of community outreach at my library. So can we talk a little bit about that? Do you want to have a comment on that?
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or or talk about maybe you mentioned social work in libraries. That to me seemed like a very logical connection. But do you want to like elaborate on that a little bit? Sure. I mean i think you you see the evolution of the library over time. i mean i'm I'm old enough to remember when when Google was first created, right which was like my first year in library school. And they were like, oh, the physical library is going to go away. right Because the perception of the public with that Librarians actually just were in the library. They sat behind a desk, right? And they may have been reading or they can point you to a book, right? That has, I mean, that was the case maybe in the 19th century that has evolved over time. And so even today we see there are like, like you said, there's so many programs like how to garden.
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There are concerts that are held in libraries. There's just so many things in public libraries, in public institutions. There are so much things, so many things to outreach to the community, because a public libraries specifically are, is about outreach, community outreach. How can we help the community? And I think social work falls in that vein, right? So people come in from the community that are dealing with issues of, you know, trauma, they're dealing with issues of, you know, last year children are coming to the library.
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don to use an act equated term. um So people come to the library. So the library is, yeah but they are community anchors. And so people do come to the library. So libraries are constantly looking at how they can improve their services to best help the needs of their users. And so I think social work is my aspect of it. Yeah, this goes right back to what we were saying earlier about If you're going to be a community library, you want the people that work in the library to be representative of the community. Absolutely. And that's important. yeah And then just to kind of add on that, I've also done have done research in the past about how libraries are community anchors and in terms of crises, right? So for example, when we had the Ferguson incident many years ago, 2015, I believe, that was with Freddie Gray, if I'm not mistaken. So everything, all the libraries
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All the public institutions in the community of Ferguson shut down except for the library. The same thing happened years later in Baltimore when they had an uprising as well. all the All the public institutions pretty much closed up except for the library because these dark branch librarians felt that where else can kids come in who were displaced from the schools? Where else can people come in and find information for help?
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And so in these instances, these libraries stay open during crisis. Yeah. That's great. I love it. um What do you think is the greatest threat to libraries and librarians these days and on? Oh
Threats of Censorship and Misinformation
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my gosh. thought Without getting too political. Because there's a lot of politics. I mean, I think one of the top but in top of now is the whole censorship, censorship, right? You know, the bad books of materials. That is huge. However, I just want you, I want everyone to know that that is not a new phenomenon. This has been going on for many, many, many, many days. And so I think that is a huge threat because it has so much momentum that has just started in a particular region in the United States. And it's just really kind of like blossom, you know? And so I think that's one of the
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a huge threat. And this whole idea of misinformation and disinformation is also a huge threat. And librarians ah and librarians have always been about, I mean, people thought with the 2016 election that this whole idea of fake news and misinformation was really a new issue. It really wasn't, hasn't been a new issue for for librarians in the profession because librarians have always been about information literacy.
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You got it. Critically involving sources and that's at the core of misinformation and disinformation. Yeah, that always makes me sort of angry when I'm watching the news and there's like a segment out of an book and people are blaming librarians and I'm like, you don't understand librarians if you're blaming librarians for this because librarians are trained to not introduce their biases you know, into whatever it is they're doing. It's all about access to information, helping you find information, keeping information free and available to people, right? So that they can decide what they want to do with that information. So whenever I see something like that, and it's usually when I'm at my dad's house, I see it. i' gone I always have to remind my father that I work at a school that is founded in library science, and then I have to tell him um about the ethos of library science and that, you know,
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It's the same kind of thing. I was like trying to point you to the doctor. right Doctors are not supposed to do any harm. right yes and you know That doesn't mean there are a few bad actors out there. i go but Most librarians live under the mantra that we're not going to censor information. It's not about censoring information. It's about providing access so that you can make informed decisions. Absolutely. Keeping information free is important. and That's why the internet. so So I feel critical to what libraries do, what their library missions are. Like ah my library runs out Wi-Fi, like mobile Wi-Fi for families that don't have really good internet access. And I think it's important because that's a really solid way for people to get access to the information that they need in today's day and age. But it is a concern that the misinformation, disinformation, and I feel
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That's another really challenging mission that you and I have in library schools is helping people to become very information literate and AI literate now. And now it is into the East Asian age. And I think that's one of the things that that we, it's it's on our shoulders to produce you know students that are um AI and information literate. They can think critically about what they see. It's more important than ever because with the prevalence of social media,
00:21:27
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It's so easy for people to gain access to any information. And we don't know if that information is valid. Absolutely. And so making sure that you're a critical thinker and someone who that's the source of where you get the information is like imperative. and i meet a lot of rant there No, absolutely no that's absolutely absolutely. And that's what I'm teaching in my class this semester. We're we're we're looking at this AI and we're, especially generative AI, where are they getting these resources? Are they getting from like Wikipedia and sources that are already biased? So what does that mean, right? So even though we don't know a lot about AI at this point, because it's still evolving, it's absolutely information literacy issue. Yeah. It's, there really used to be an old game I would play in the early days of Google where
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I would put a article that was wrong on a site and then Google would find it. And then i it was like some ridiculous thing that made no sense and it was all made up. And then I would have my freshman forum class research that topic and it would always come up on the page. And so people would cite that and they would go, you just cited me and it was like fake.
00:22:34
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And i use that as it's hard to do that, and help because Google sort of caught on. on yes And it's sort of difficult to do that on social media or anything yeah like that. But it was a really powerful exercise in trusting the information that you find. And just because you can find it quickly recently doesn't mean it's happening. Absolutely. yeah So I know we got an off topic there, but it's it's worth talking about. Absolutely. yeah Definitely worth talking about. Yeah, and just kind of piggyback.
Expanding Roles of Librarians
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So our librarians, people who leave our program,
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in the LIS program, they don't just go work in public libraries. I mean, they do, or they work in academic libraries, they do, but they also work in corporate libraries, right? They work with corporations, Hewlett-Packard or other, you know, the MITRE Corporation and other corporations, and they do information architecture. You know, the whole idea of information. So that is, I just don't want people to think that people in our program just really want to go to work in a typical,
00:23:32
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traditional library. They actually didn't work anywhere. Recently some of our students began jobs in government. And not working for like the Library of Congress, but working in government, doing what librarians do, yeah but you know in and government agencies, like the FDA, because they have the traditional information um um management challenges that a large corporation would have.
00:23:59
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yep My previous institution, I worked in DC. Our students went to go work at the State Department, FDA. All these you know organizations said, because the key is really information and organization and management of it. I was ah i'm happy when I see a company um hire our LIS students. I'm like, they get it. They get the value of having someone like that in the organization or having a team of people like that in the organization. yeah Because ah managing information is is challenging and difficult.
00:24:30
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And one thing that I've noticed that's true, and I've been doing this kind of stuff for a very long time, as you said, it doesn't get easier. It only gets harder because there's different channels of information now and and the strings are much more rapid and the the relevance cycle is shorter. So that all of these things play into a challenge where it's, while you can use some technology to help you,
00:24:58
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people are always going to need to be there. Right. Just because of unless the volume of information that has stems and dies down at some point, we're going to be more, if you had any human, it's going to be even more important than ever. Right. As we go forward. Right. And I think kind of taking it back to Clara Stan Jones, one of her signature pieces when she became executive director of the Detroit Public Library, the 19th, before speaking director of the League, she started a program called TIP.
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that it was called the information place. And what she did was, because she had previously been assigned to work in the community to help individuals in the community help connect people in the community with information and also drive them to the library, she came up with this i idea of TIP. And I like to say that was like a pre-internet ah way of accessing information. And so she she she created that for Detroit and it just ah eventually spread out to other libraries, and it still exists today. So it was her brainchild, which kind of formulated this whole idea of connecting people to information. That's awesome. Let me try to pull pull back on script here a little bit. So your book shares how Clara Stanton Jones stirred the waters in the Detroit Library, as you just mentioned, right? Who's stirring the water in the libraries of the world today? That's a great question. Because when I look back, I mean,
00:26:26
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You know, I consider myself a historian. When I look back over the history of the profession, people like Josie and Claristan Jones and Sandy Berman, there's all these notable people who really made a lot of stirs, like they ruffled feathers, right? I mean, we do have that, up but we don't have it on such a grand scale, or not to the level that they were able to do it. um I do think there are scholars who are writing about critical issues in the profession that is important.
00:26:54
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Um, but in terms of the library, librarians who were, um, there are, there are a few people that I feel that are stirring the waters, but not to the degree that Clara did or, or some of the others, some of the others. It's like important to advancing a field, right? You need, you need some disruption that happens. And it's funny because in the tech industry, it's like, that's what like It's all about, right? But it's like sometimes in other industries, people are like, oh, that's frowned upon. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. Disruption is how we advance and move forward and innovate and think differently about the things that we do. It's so important. Absolutely. Because nothing is ever, no process is really ever done because the things that impact that process change over time. And the library is a great example of that because what we used to do in the library in the 19th century
00:27:50
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and in the 20th century and the 21st century has evolved, and it will continue to evolve. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think the perception of who librarians are is not really what the public think. Because typically, you may turn on the TV, there may be a very, let me see a Jeopardy question, what a librarian that wears glasses with a button in their head in the meeting, right? I think the march for most part, the best part of society believe that, who librarians are.
00:28:19
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I like to challenge them because come to some of these association meetings, librarians are rebel browsers innately, right? Absolutely. They are innately rebel browsers. They're going to put their themselves out there. They're gonna they're be very opinionated. And this is something that I try to have my students really think about. It's fine having opinions. It's fine to take a stance, right? It's fine to advocate.
00:28:49
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for a cause, because the profession's really built on that. And they can back in their sources. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's a real gem. So you're teaching the next generation of librarians to appreciate people, like Carlos Daniels, who you write about in the book, right? And carrying their and so how can those students carry the torch and move it forward?
00:29:17
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Keep the reform going. That's a great idea. I think it's a good model. I think one of the things when I teach some of the foundation courses, I ask students, I said, why are you here? Why do you become a librarian? Because if you think it's about going in and sitting behind a desk or going and working tech courses, doing cataloging, yeah, that's part of it. But that's not all of it, right? A lot of it is about having a voice, making sure that people have access equal access to information or equity of information. Making sure that people understand how the internet works and how to get sources. Making sure that the issues of social justice that the profession has adopted that that's in place. Making sure in terms of intellectual property where you're going to create a balance of rights of the creator versus the rights of the user.
00:30:12
Speaker
yeah Those are advocacy issues that underpin the profession. and i so And I always go back to that in terms of having students, you know, take a stance and just you know willing to put themselves out there on those points. So they may not all do that, but I think a very more majority of student my students over over the years have done that. Yeah, I think that's really, you know, you really sort of that resonates with me because even if you're that librarian that just wants to do like cataloging, right? You still have to know how to defend the library. huh You still have to know that. And you still, you can't always be inward facing. You have to be somewhat outward facing to be an advocate. And I think, I think that's one of the, the essences of um what we're assigned today is learning to be an advocate. um And I think we do that well here. i Absolutely. Yeah. So what are your hopes and dreams for your students and how they can,
00:31:08
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leave their mark on the library field? Well, the world is their oyster, really. They can go out there and, like I said, there are luminaries, there are models that they can actually utilize to advocate, go out there and do do something for the field. And it doesn't have to be doesn't have to rise to the case of Claris Dangels. It can be something small, a model that could be something in their community. It could be creating something to help the community. So a lot of these,
00:31:37
Speaker
i do this but I think a lot of these, I usually have a lot of projects in class to help them think about what it would be like once they're in the field. yeah and i And it's kind of a test drive, so to speak. And so those are also models that they can use as well. And I think that's really, really important. I mean, one of the things that you're doing as ah as a college student, as a grad student is is finding a safe place to learn right and and fail. and Your perspective and lens on history is important because the best way to go forward is to is to learn what we did in the past, both to not make the same things you made, get but to also say that worked and why did that work and how did that work and how can I take what worked then and apply it to the society and the variables that we have in the society today.
00:32:32
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And that's a really great lens to to do that. Yeah, absolutely.
Clara Stanton Jones: A Role Model
00:32:36
Speaker
I think Clara's getting chose one thing I think I would love for students to take away is when she was she was the first African-American and the first woman to oversee, you'd be director of a major public library system. And her name was circulated to be the director in Detroit, the Detroit Public Library,
00:33:01
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There was, she felt, she faced a lot of backlash. They didn't want her to do it. um People quit. They didn't pay her equitably. They didn't say, you know, they had money mark for the next director. They said, oh, we're not going to give it to her. People quit. And people were circulating petitions. But she, she stayed focused. And I think she was very resilient and she, you know,
00:33:27
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And when she was elected, where when she was, you know, appointed to that position, she just, she proved them all wrong through the actions that she made, right? She was able to just, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. And she did great. She received a lot of achievement. She went out to become ALA president. She was the first president um black African-American to be president of the American Library Association as well. So she's the first of a lot, of a lot.
00:33:55
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And so I just think that like her whole model and how she maneuvered that those challenges and that discord and that racism, I think it's a great model for others to see. Absolutely, absolutely. um How can people find your book? Oh,
Availability of 'Breaking Glass Ceilings'
00:34:11
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OK. Well, hopeful they not months sir here's a guide in my book. One is published by Roman and Little Phil, so they can go order it from from the website. It's also on Amazon dot.com. You can just search.
00:34:25
Speaker
Breaking Glass Ceilings, Clarence Gatton Jones, and the Detroit Public Library. And if you still can't find it, which I'm pretty sure you can there, you can always reach out to me. That's great. and um i ah This was a real pleasure. I had a fun time talking with you today. I hope you did the same. And let's put a wrap on this. This is another university. Thank you. Well, thank you for having me. yeah