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Jim Enwright on Women in Cybersecurity, Building Community, and Thriving in Syracuse’s DPS Program
31 Plays3 months ago
In this Infoversity episode, IT leader and educator Jim Enright shares insights from his doctoral research on women in cybersecurity. He explores how community, mentorship, and curiosity fuel success in cyber programs, offers lessons from Syracuse’s Doctor of Professional Studies, and reveals how educators can inspire students to discover their path.
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Transcript
Introduction to Infoversity Podcast
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Hello, and welcome to another episode of Infovarsity. My name is John Jordan, and I'm coming to you from the School of Information Studies at Syracuse University. Our guest today is Jim Enright, an accomplished IT leader with more than 20 years of experience across information technology, information security, enterprise risk management, IT architecture, and project management.
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Jim has worked in both public and private sectors, including banking and finance, healthcare, care gaming, and education, where he's provided strategic direction and led teams on local, national, and international levels.
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In addition to his leadership roles, Jim is a senior adjunct professor at the school and a professor of practice in cybersecurity at Le Moyne College. He holds a doctor of professional studies, a master's degree, and a certificate in advanced studies in information security management from the iSchool.
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He also has a bachelor's degree in information science from SUNY Oswego.
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Welcome.
Challenges in Cybersecurity Education
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Glad here.
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John. the DPS, which you just finished in May, is a practitioner focused program, but it requires a research focus. How did you navigate the fine line between so understanding a problem and solving a problem?
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So it wasn't easy, as you know, with countless conversations with me as I came through the program. um When I started the program, I really was trying to solve everything.
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So I was taking the approach of, hey, you know, I'm coming into this and I want my thesis to be all about solving why there's a lack of women in the cybersecurity field.
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And in our conversations and conversations with my committee members, a lot of it came you know down to instead of trying to solve the problem, let's understand what the current state is first. Let's observe and see why are there you know so few women in cybersecurity.
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And it got me to kind of think about things a little bit differently. um And that sort of led to my research questions, which are, you know why do women pursue degrees in cyber in the first place?
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And then what are the social experiences that they have that impact them wanting to continue that? um So it
Building Community in Cybersecurity Education
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went from, you know, trying to solve this huge problem to let's focus on some of the, you know, some of the causes for it.
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And now that, you know, I've done the research and been able to determine what a few of those reasons are, it hopefully can, you know, contribute to the community and give them something to say, Oh, these are some of the issues. Now let's try to solve those things.
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So given it what you learned about women studying cybersecurity at the undergraduate level, which is your day job, how are you teaching differently now? How are you sort of conceiving of cybersecurity differently now, given what you studied and learned?
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So One of the things kind of going into my research and and when I finally figured out the research questions, I was expecting there to be um ah heavier focus on the reasons women got into it and some of the experiences being around the academic side of it.
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And it really was far less on the academics and much more on the community and their personal interest. So some of the main factors, you know when I was looking at my research questions, why women get into cyber in the first place, had far less to do with because they were really, really you know ah into the academics of of cyber. And it was more to do with like they really had an interest in IT or They had a background in gaming and they liked kind of the the technical challenges or they had a parent or a friend or a mentor um that were interested in cyber. And then once they got into a degree program, it was a lot more about a sense of community. It wasn't about what they were learning. Right. There's a ton of different cybersecurity degree programs that exist out there.
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And it's not necessarily about the academics. It's about you know do they have a sense of community where they are? Do they have people? This is a ah tough, challenging degree.
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um So when they come up you know and and through a degree program like that and they run into different obstacles, ah they need that kind of sense of community to fall back on. And that was one of the things that, you know, a lot of the women that I spoke with um were mentioning was, you know, hey, we had, you know, these clubs or these organizations or things of that nature.
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And that's what really kind of kept them in the program when they faced a lot of these hurdles and challenges. So um now when I, you know, look to, you know, teach, I make sure that, you know, we've got a community at the school, um you know, the one where I teach and even here at su is an adjunct is, you know, making sure that the students feel like, hey, you know, there's other people here that are doing the same things as you. You can, you know, go talk to these other folks.
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There's different national organizations, like I mentioned, women in cybersecurity or WESIS. So making sure the students are aware of, you know, the different community aspects to hopefully help them, you know, continue down this path.
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So
Overcoming Imposter Syndrome in Cybersecurity
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three years ago you were thinking I probably should retool the curriculum. And three months ago you figured out, no I need to buy more pizza. Yeah, basically.
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So, you know, it was it was far less about, oh, you know, these classes aren't working and, you know, we need to change this and more about, no, let's, you know, build this community here at the school. So, you know, when I started it at Le Moyne,
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um This was seven years ago. you know the The cyber degree major was brand new. And within a year, we had a cybersecurity club. And then couple years later, we had a women in cybersecurity club. And last year, we ended up joining or we ended up adding ah Capture the Flag Club.
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And then we're now looking to start a mentor ah program where seniors and juniors will be mentoring sophomores and freshmen. So when these freshmen come in, and one of the the key issues that I found in in the research is the experiences women had was this
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Imposter syndrome, but a lot of people when they think imposter syndrome with women in cyber, it's because, hey, I'm going into this field and there's a lot of guys there. And was far less about that. It was imposter syndrome in that they were new to the field,
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And they didn't have a lot of knowledge around cybersecurity and didn't know what they didn't know. So they would come into this field as newbies and be intimidated by, oh my gosh, that person over there has got this you know huge background in coding or they come from doing and It really is about, you know hey, no, you know you belong here. You're welcome here.
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Everybody is exactly where you are right now. And your instructors and the community will teach you what you need to know you know moving forward. So really kind of you know giving the students you know this this sense of community and you know opportunities to learn outside of the classroom.
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And I tell a lot of my students in field, in this field you really need to be passionate about what you're doing. And it doesn't just end you know after four years of getting a degree or you know a master's or whatever.
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This is something that's lifelong learning and you need to be passionate about it because it's going to constantly change and we're seeing it constantly changing. And if you're not changing with it or want to change with it,
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it yeah I tell students, I'm like, this isn't the field for you. So I'll tell freshmen like, hey, if you don't like that idea, like you might want to consider something different, which I don't know if my deans are or those, you know, appreciate me telling them, hey, you might want to get out of this. But at the end of the day, you know, you really do need to have a passion for this to to stick with it because it's going to get really, really challenging.
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So
Supportive Cohorts in Academic Programs
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sticking with the social aspect, but now looking back on your own doctoral student experience, the cohort is a really important part of the program, but every cohort is unique. So how did cohort two, your your cohort that graduated in May,
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find its collective identity, what moments stand out for you looking back at it? So I love our cohort. And like, even now, like we'll still get together on occasion and, you know, chatting with each other and texting each other.
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um we We like to refer to ourselves as the chill cohort, um which may have gotten us in trouble with you a few times where you had to get on our case a little to get some things done. But I really think the the residencies that we had where everybody was able to come together and meet and you know just immerse ourselves in this, and everybody's learning at the same time with all sorts of different backgrounds. I mean, we have you know people in quantum, people in marketing, people in education, and we were all really to kind of able to come together and learn from one another.
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and keep each other on task. And like I said, you know we we'd like to refer to ourselves as the chill cohort. So there was a lot of times where you know deadlines would come up and you know you would tell us, hey, we need to make sure that we're hitting these marks.
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And we'd be like, all right, well, do we really need to hit it you know exactly on time? But when it came down to it, i think a lot of us were there to help one another and get us to meet the deadlines you know in time for when they needed to be met. And it was I think a lot of um really you know spending those those weekends or those weeks where it was just, OK, guys, you know, we've got two weeks before this is due these next few weekends. It's just heads down and, you know, bust your butt, make sure that you get stuff done. I know some of the folks in the cohort you know got Airbnbs together just
Research on Women in Cybersecurity
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to go and be like, hey, we're removing ourselves from the family for this weekend because we've got a deadline coming up.
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um you know, I spent countless hours in in my dungeon, as my wife called it, ah surrounded by sticky notes all over the wall where it was just, hey, it's a heads down moment and we just need to to kind of focus. So I think our cohort, um you know, looking back and reflecting on it, we were all really there for each other, supported one another.
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Anytime anybody needed anything, it was like, hey, do you want to jump on a call? Oh, I can't until like 11 o'clock at night. That's fine. We'll jump on an 11 o'clock at night. when it came time for getting ready for our thesis defenses, a lot of us like countless weekends
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Number of of practice runs that we did, you know, brought our defenses from like, you know, 45 minutes down to the 20 that it needed just because, you know, they were able to say, hey, you know, trim these slides or you don't need to go into that or, you know, cover this a little bit more in depth. And um to me, i just i reflect back on it and have just made you know friendships that are going last a lifetime because everybody was there for one another.
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So it was great.
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So moving from the cohort to the scholar, tell us a little bit about the sort of the arc of how you had the idea for this study of women in cyber.
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um And what were the aha moments where you came along and sort of said, Oh, that's what's going on. Or I i asked this, but I should have listened for that. Or um And then what were the happy accidents? You know, what did you sort of stumble into whether you had planned it out exactly that way or it's like, oh my gosh, this is, this is happening.
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So,
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obviously in a time constrained manner. yeah Give give us an inside view of the nuts and bolts of actually getting a thesis done because a lot of people come into this and say, oh my gosh, I could never write a thesis. yep Well, you don't write a thesis, you write sections and then you write chapters and then you link chapters together and eventually it adds up to it, but it's still a daunting process. And how did you navigate that?
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So for me, kind of, you know, the driving force behind this, and I don't know if I'm unique in this or not. But from day one, I kind of knew exactly what I wanted to do my thesis on, which was the lack of women in cybersecurity, but I didn't know how to approach it. And again, the countless conversations with you and and, you know, my committee and advisor um really kind of helped me figure out exactly what what that was. And but was really driving it was my experiences in the classroom so i've got all these students and i would see in the classroom like you know again the number is 25 that's the number of women you know in cyber security and i saw it firsthand and i was like okay you know that's an issue but what really drove it um if i'm being honest is my daughter so my daughter is studying cyber security uh she's going to college down in arlington virginia and
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I wanted to be able to research something that I was passionate about and something that I felt would be able to help her. So. When I was coming up with this idea, it was like, all right, you know what? What can I do? You know, how do we get more women in cyber? How is it that, you know, when she's in the workforce, you know, this is what she's going to have to deal with. So how does she navigate that? And then it kept, you know,
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started with this huge funnel. And I think you've given this analogy before, right? You start with this huge funnel and then you slowly just keep on whittling it down, down, down until you find those research questions that are going to work. And and the research questions are constantly changing.
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um But for me, it was you know really trying to figure out, OK, well, let's look at you know women in cybersecurity degree programs, which is something I know a lot about.
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and trying to figure out you know what can help my students, help my daughter you know in in her studies. So that was really kind of the the driving force behind it. As far as like the aha moments or kind of, you know how how do you get from, hey, I need to do this thesis.
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And it's like, that's crazy. Like, I'm not a writer. That's the last thing in the world I want to do. So to me, it was like, how the heck am I going to get you know all these pages written? And, you know, I think a lot of it has to do with the way that the program is structured, which is, hey, we're not going to focus on everything at once. We're going to start and focus on, you know, let's come up with an introduction on what you want to do.
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And, you know, kind of the first year of the program, it's figure out, you know, what you want your research to be on and then see what literature exists already on that topic.
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So you can kind of try to position yourself with what already exists. Like you don't want to do something that's already been done before. So you want to add something new. So being able to break it down by chapter to me was incredibly helpful.
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um So, you know, coming up and and doing your literature review and then, you know, figuring out what method you want to use. And for me, the method was. kind of from day one, I kind of knew what I wanted to do, which was interview women in cybersecurity degree programs and women that are ah faculty members at schools and and have gone through cyber programs before.
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So I knew I wanted to do interviews rather early. um So that was just a matter of actually finding and making the time to you know conduct those interviews and getting the the people who would want to be interviewed for this.
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um And then once that happened, kind of back to you know what you were saying, in those aha moments, right? I kind of went into it thinking, okay, you know a lot of the reason that you know there's not a lot of women in cyber is you know negative experiences with men, um you know things of that nature, the imposter syndrome that I had mentioned before. And while a lot of the women I spoke to did have negative experiences with men, that really didn't drive them to stay in the field or get out of the field.
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it was really more around, you know, hey, you know, my my dad or my mom, you know, we're in cyber before this, and that's why I decided to get into it in the first place. And once I got in there, it was the imposter syndrome of everybody else around me really knows this stuff and I don't. So it was a newbie coming in.
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You know, it was intimidating to them or other reasons that, you know, women got out of it was like family. So for the same reason that women got into the field was also another reason why a lot of women got out of the field where you you know, the family members would would speak to them and would tell them, you know, that's that's a field for a bunch of nerds. Like, why are you getting into this field?
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And they were just misinformed on what cyber was. And a lot of people said that, you know, when they got into the field initially, they thought that it was like this super technical, really, you know, um you know, intense kind of major and field.
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And it wasn't until they got into it, they realized cyber is and and I'll quote one of the women that I was speaking with. or I had interviewed, cyber's an industry of industries. It's not just technical, it's not just coding or networking or systems. There's the risk aspect to it. There's the policy, there's the law aspect of it.
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There's the security awareness and training aspect to it. And
Impact of Community and Conferences on Female Students
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once women started their programs and they started realizing, hey, there's a lot more to this than just the technical stuff that we see on TV of you know the kid in the basement you know in a hoodie,
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they really kind of fell in love with it. And that was one of the the aha moments to me that you know everybody's journey into cyber is really very different. And once we get women into the field and exposed to a lot of the different aspects of it,
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that they can find the area that really suits them and that they enjoy. And that to me was one of the things that made me realize, OK, so for my intro to cyber courses that I teach both here at SU and at Le Moyne, I need to make sure that students are exposed to more than just the technical. I need to do more than just cover firewalls and you know, things of that nature. Like I need to let them know, hey, it's about risk management, right? And risk management is any field, right?
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So, you know, it's it's about, you know, understanding policy. And I still remember one of my students with one of the policy courses I developed here at SU. She reached out to me a couple of years ago and was like, hey, Enright, I just wanted to reach out to you.
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You know, when I took your policy course, I really didn't know that existed. And I really fell in love with the idea of like, you know, writing policy and how can I set things up so that the companies do things properly.
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And now I'm working, you know, for a major corporation out west and I'm in charge of their policy. And like, that's unbelievable. like And she's like, it wasn't until I took your course that I even realized what cyber was or what it could be.
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And she's like, that's when I fell in love with this aspect of it. So to me, those are some of the things that you know really you know make me excited. And and my daughter is the same thing. um When she was a high school senior, I took her to one of the the women in cybersecurity, the WESIS conferences.
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And she was dabbling in IT, dabbling in tech, wasn't quite sure what she wanted to do, thought about cyber. And when we went there, um she fell in love with it. She got talking to a bunch of other women at the conference.
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ah Ditched you, as I recall. What's that? She ditched you. Yeah. so Yes, she did. See you, Dad. I'm going off with these cool women. definitely a third wheel, for sure. We went to a ah ah capture the flag competition at night, and I sat down with her, um you know, kind of, you know, looking over her shoulder as she's doing things.
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And I'm like, all right, you know, I'm going to run and check on some other students. I'll be back in a little bit. Well, I come back, and she's sitting there with... um This lady who kind of she ponied up next to and they were discussing, um is you know, sort of the different capture the flag things that the challenges that they had.
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And I came back. I'm like, oh, hi. And, you know, she introduced herself. And um I'm like, OK, well, you know how things going. Good, good, good, good, good. And just kind of like, you know, blew me off. So I'm like, okay, well, I'll just, you know, go over here for a minute. And after like 10 minutes of just sitting there by myself on my phone, I'm like, all right, I think I'm going to go to the bar and, you know, i'll I'll check back on, you know, back in with you in like an hour.
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I came back, they're like heads down. And it's like, yeah, dad, you you don't need to be here. you You can go, that's okay. And I'm like, ah okay, well, I'll just hang out for a little while at the bar. If you need me, come get me, but...
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I was really fun to kind of see her, you know, do her own thing. And afterwards, um when I came back and they were done with the competition, she just couldn't stop talking and it was awesome. So that was really, I think, one of her moments of like, wow, this is really for me.
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And that's why I think like organizations like WESIS and the conference that they do is so important because again, going back to the whole community aspect. You know, you're not going into a room where, you know, 25% is women and it's all guys.
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You're going into a conference where there's 2000 women there and all of them are all into cyber and all the different things. So you're learning from them and they're learning from each other. And it's it's was awesome. So.
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And then she was able to come to your defense too. So that was, yes to your you was your thesis defense. That was a pretty nice moment. And was a big help with the thesis defense, if I'm being honest. Just, you know, anytime I kind of came across something that was like, hey, you know, does this really fit? I'd be like, so Anna, you know, does this make sense to you? And um she ended up helping me do some coding, which that that was brutal. That was awful. So having her help with ah but that was also- Interview coding, not programming coding. Yes, interview coding. Correct, correct.
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You're nemesis. Yeah. Oh my God.
Balancing Family Life and Academic Pursuits
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So there's a transition to our last question, which is as we recruit the next cohort, um, for starting next May, um, what would you tell anybody who's thinking about it?
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Do it, just do it, rip it off like a bandaid. Um, I was really hesitant to jump into it. You wanted to put it off for a year.
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I did. and So I thought about it and you know you know was like, I don't know if now's the right time. And you know when I transitioned full-time into academia,
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um you you know, in industry you're always, hey, what's the next step? What's the next ladder you're gonna climb? In academia, like, unless you've got a terminal degree, it's kind of hard to to move up.
00:22:58
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So I knew it was something I wanted to do. And even when I was in industry, I went after my masters because i always liked the idea of higher education. So when it came time make a decision on the doctorate, it was like, I know I want to do it, you know, and conversation with my wife. And it's like, you know, we've got two kids, you know, you know, in high school and we want to spend time with them.
00:23:20
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And it was just like, you know, now is probably not the right time. And I was talking myself out of it. And finally, my wife was like, what are you waiting for? She's like, it's never going to get easier.
00:23:33
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She said, you know this is something that you wanna do. You feel it's something you have to do if you wanna progress you know and in in your field. She's like, you know when you got your master's, we were here for you. We supported you through that, and the kids were a lot younger. Being in high school, you you can do whatever they want, right?
00:23:50
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But you know when they were real young, you know it was a lot more difficult. And she's like, we got through it then. She's like, just you know know that you're going to have your moments where it's like, hey, I've just got to lock myself up in a room and just do nothing. And she's like, you know we'll be here and support that.
00:24:04
Speaker
And my family was super supportive. you know Even my parents and you know siblings, whenever we would have like you know family events, it was like, oh, Jim's got to do that. So it's like, okay, you know no big deal. you know We'll reschedule or things of that nature. But...
00:24:16
Speaker
I was really hesitant. And finally, she was like, rip it off like a Band-Aid. So I think at that point I had reached out to you and I think you put me in contact with some folks from cohort one. And in talking to them, it was kind of the same thing. Like, we just got to do it like you're going to have to make time for this and it's going to be tough. It's going to be challenging. You're going to come into, um you know, roadblocks in times when you're like, you know, you again, that imposter syndrome, like you don't feel like you belong here.
00:24:43
Speaker
and there's no way i'm going to be able to get all this stuff done you've got you know work and family and balancing all these things but i think going back to one of the things you mentioned before i think that's where the cohort to us anyway or to me personally really helped like you know yes you've got your family support but at the same time they're not going through the same thing that you're going through So when you can talk to other people in your cohort who can tell you, yeah, I'm going through the same thing, you know, or, hey, I'm dealing with, you know, this with my kid and balancing, you know, work and balancing this and they're making time for it.
00:25:21
Speaker
You can kind of be like, all right, well, if they can do it, then I can do it, too. So it was just and everybody had different moments. You know, I remember when
00:25:30
Speaker
going through it over the summer. my family wanted to travel and and, you know, you know, travel cross country and in our RV. I remember having the conversation with you like, look, does this make sense? And you're like, you're never going to get those moments back with your family. You've got to do it.
00:25:47
Speaker
It'll probably set you behind a little bit, but that's OK. You'll catch up. And ah went on the trip, touched base with you, I think a couple times for the most part was just like- After the bear.
00:25:57
Speaker
Yeah, f yes. So my wife and I ran into a bear when we were in Banff National Park, which was terrifying. um And John got to hear all about all the stories in the wildlife that we encountered. But it really was one of those things where you can still have that balance, but you need to pick your moments and need to know that, hey, when this is done,
00:26:18
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I've got to buckle down and you know get caught back up. And to me, might again, you know of mice and men, my plan going into the trip was to have all my coding completed before the trip.
00:26:33
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That did not happen. Coding was a lot you know more difficult for me than I thought it was going to be. But what I think it did, and you told me this a number of times, and and I can't agree more, is it got me to recharge and rethink.
00:26:49
Speaker
So even though we were traveling across the country and spending countless hours in the car and you know going and doing all these hikes and things, you're never really done with your thesis. It's always in the back of your mind, you're always thinking.
00:27:03
Speaker
So for me, it gave me the time to be like, hey, I was thinking this, but I really think it fits over here. And this is again where my daughter came in really helpful is she was traveling with us.
00:27:14
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So I'd be like, does this make sense to you and her advice on that? So it got me rethinking things and just the ability to step back, recharge. And when I came back, it was just like, hey, I'm back and I am fully charged and ready for this and just Buttoned down, got the coding done, you know, shortly thereafter, started getting the drafts done. So for me, I would just tell anybody thinking about it, it's it's so worth it, right? Whether you're in academia, right, that was one of my main reasons for getting into it, or industry, like it just opens so many doors for you and opportunities, things that, you know, it gets you to think about things in a different way.
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And
Encouragement for Academic Challenges
00:27:51
Speaker
to me, that's invaluable. So I would just tell anybody that's even contemplating it, go for it.
00:28:00
Speaker
Final words? um
00:28:05
Speaker
If you're going to go for it, do it with passion. And with your spouse's sign-up. Yeah, send with your spouse's sign-up. Because really, you you are en investing your family in this program. 100%. that's why what I mean is like the family support. like I'm not getting through this without my wife's support to be like, hey, you know Jim's burying himself in the basement for the next three days because he's got this due.
00:28:27
Speaker
Or my kid's being able to understand, hey, dad's working on this, so you know we're going to put you know this off or we're going to do it at a different time. Um, you really do need your family fully on board. And like I said, like my parents, my siblings, like we vacation a lot together and it was like, oh, okay, well, you know, Jim's got to do this, you know, for, for this.
00:28:47
Speaker
So can we push it back a week and huge support. So having your family support is really, truly important. Like make sure they're fully on board and they know what they're signing up for.
00:29:00
Speaker
Um, know that you're going to have time to be able to spend with them still. And you've you've got to make sure you're balancing that. um But you know to pursue this, you know do it with something that that has meaning for you. like With me, like I said, from day one, I knew what I wanted to do.
00:29:15
Speaker
um And I don't think if I wasn't passionate about the topic, I don't know that I would have gotten through because you are going to hit those moments where it's really tough. like This is not an easy thing to get through.
00:29:29
Speaker
but having your family support, having it be something you're passionate about, and then again, having that cohort there to see yourself in them, I think is really important.
00:29:41
Speaker
Well put. um Our guest today his Jim Enright, a professor at Syracuse and Lemoine, a graduate of the DPS program and a proud father of a aspiring cybersecurity expert.
00:29:53
Speaker
Thanks for the time. Do appreciate it. And that concludes this interview. edition of Infoversity. Thank you so much.