Transcript
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Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Democracy Volunteers podcast series, Elections Across the World. In this series, we invite guests to talk about the major and most obscure elections that occurred in the world last month.
Speaker: In this podcast, we will cover South Korea's election that suffered from a shortage of ballot papers, the recent victory for the new Colombian president, and finally, with the help of guest Mary Manassian,
Speaker: coordinator of monitoring election projects at Transparency International Armenia, we will discuss in detail the recent victory for Nikhil Pashinyan. In South Korea, the recent vote for mayor and governorship took place across 16 major cities and provinces.
Speaker: This election was predicted as an examination of President Lee Jang-nyung's administration a year into his presidency. in which, against all predictions, President Lee's Democratic Party lost the mayoral race of the nation's capital, Seoul, to the main opposition, People Power Party.
Speaker: Headlines, were however, were not dominated by the People Power victory, but instead how at 12 polling stations across Seoul, ballot papers simply ran out. Voters waited for hours, with others leaving before voting.
Speaker: According to reports by Reuters, the Electoral Commission had initially prepared ballots for only 50% of registered voters, but turnout reached about 61%, higher than the 2022 elections.
Speaker: Since the Electoral Commission offered a public apology, amidst protests calling for answers, and a rerun at the affected polling stations, the Commission have now rejected this proposition for a rerun and have set up an external review.
Speaker: In Colombia, new president Adelero de Esprilla was elected after two rounds. The first took place on the 31st of May, including 13 other candidates.
Speaker: However, with no candidates achieving an absolute majority, a runoff election took place, consisting of two candidates with the highest number of votes. This included Esprilla and Ivan Cepeda.
Speaker: This election took place on the 21st of June and was won by the slimmest of margins. Esprilla won 49.66% of the vote, only more blank.
Speaker: with one point six four percent of the vote spoiled or blank Now moving on to the Armenian election, I have the privilege of welcoming onto the podcast, Mary Minasian.
Speaker: It's great to see you, Mary. Can you give our listeners a brief summary about what Transparency International do and your role within the organization?
Speaker: Good, thank you for having me. It's a great privilege for me. um So Transparency International is still is this well-known global network of anti-corruption movement. We have our chapters in more than 100 countries and specifically in Armenia we started operating since 2000 and year 2000 and we are focusing on anti-corruption, good governance,
Speaker: and anti-corruption legislation, corruption prevention, and specifically in the electoral context, our one of our main goals is democratization processes and the electoral and integrity, political integrity. So we started also conducting election observation missions since early 2000s. Obviously, they evolved to during the time because the needs were different. But we started looking at elections pretty early within our organizational history because without proper election, there is no good governance and no corruption free country.
Speaker: And so how has the observation meet mission been for the Armenian election this year? So those elections were unique also for observers because it was the the specific elections of June.
Speaker: ah they They were the first ah regular elections in Armenia in a long time. So the last regular parliamentary elections that we had was in 2017. And after that, our elections were basically um mechanisms to solve crisis situations, political crisis or situation that in 2018 or a situation that happened after 2020 war.
Speaker: I guess trying to get into the meat of the election, can you kind of give our listeners an understanding of why this election that took place on Sunday, the 7th of June, is so important for Armenia and actually for surrounding countries as well?
Speaker: Well, ah yes. So those elections, as it usually happens, Armenia is small country and many geopolitical and political um interests may meet or even clash inside a small country that is in a very northeast region, let's put it like that. So um as I already mentioned, those were the first regular elections after 2017.
Speaker: twenty seventeen So political parties and different groups and but people with different interests had time to prepare and come to these elections prepared. And it also meant that all the parties involved started their campaigning, pre-campaigning, spreading their narratives and ah mobilizing their efforts pretty early, like a year earlier than elections or even more.
Speaker: And some may say that those elections were historical in terms of the geopolitical shift that may have occurred in a result of those elections because the inc at the ruling party now now was ah promoting the idea of more integration with European Union and decentralization of the resources that Armenia providing.
Speaker: having from different parties and also trying to regulate the peace processes with neighboring Azerbaijan and trying to open dialogue with neighboring Turkey.
Speaker: for listeners maybe not understand, this is the civil contract party, is that right? Led by Nicole Paschke? Yes. yes Yes, ah with the Prime Minister, Nikol Pashinyan, he was promoting, i mean, at least is is in his public agenda, he was promoting more ah Western integration and diversification of ah um security guarantees and so on and stabilization of the processes in the region.
Speaker: While ah the opposition led by um the former government well, there were two main parties of opposition. One was Strong Armenia Alliance, which was non-formally led by this Russian entrepreneur of Armenian origin, Samvel Karabetsa.
Speaker: And ah the other major... political party, I mean, force was Armenia Alliance led by former president Robert Kocharian.
Speaker: They were
Speaker: promoting the ideas of keeping the traditional ties of Armenia with Russia and ah trying to normalize the relationship that we have with Russia.
Speaker: So, and telling that the process of like this peace dialogue and try and regional processes in Armenia um are hurting Armenian identity and will have negative impact on sovereignty of Armenia.
Speaker: So those were two narratives that were pushed inside of Armenia. And we have also witnessed that those elections were presented to the outside viewer in the same perspective as well. So it was basically a small battle between the Western, more pro-Western ideas and powers and more pro, not Eastern, pro-Russian, maybe something like that. And there were many narratives trying to ah picture the process as
Speaker: Ukrainianization of Armenia, then at some point, Moldovian scenario in Armenia, and many things were manipulated in public narrative in this case. and
Speaker: But yeah, basically the outcome of election, I mean, I think it's not a secret to anyone and anymore. um The
Speaker: The civil Civil Contract Party got the majority. They got almost 50% of the votes, ah which meant that they could form a government and they got the three-fifths of the sort three fifth of mandates
Speaker: And they can pass some laws, they can appoint judges and other things as well. ah But indeed, they did not get the constitutional majority, which is more than two.
Speaker: ah Yes, more than 60 percent, two thirds of the mandates. ah in the parliament, which means they can't really um bring constitutional amendments, which was one of their promises and which was also highly pushed by neighboring Azerbaijan as a guarantee of the peace processes and dialogues to change the Armenian constitution, which is a debatable process itself.
Speaker: So yeah, right now they can't amend the constitution by themselves. I guess focusing on... the election itself and the integrity of the election on the 10th of June, three days after the election, leader of the strong Armenia party actually expressed concerns regarding widespread electoral irregularities. During your observation, did you find any of this and kind of, is is there truth to this allegation?
Speaker: um Well, we have found several instances of irregularities ah during our long-term observation and also short-term observation within the polling stations.
Speaker: ah I would divide them in three categories. ah The first category of the um violations and concerning behaviors were pretty enormous number of vote-buying cases.
Speaker: which we haven't witnessed during the elections in recent years in Armenia and which was pretty concerning for us as observers and us us civil society organizations.
Speaker: um So we have witnessed vote buying cases and our prosecutor's office and anti-corruption committee have published hundreds of recordings of people talking about some vote buying or some other forms of And is that online that you're finding these messages or how how are you finding out about it?
Speaker: Our findings as well align with of whatever the Prosecutor's Office and Anti-Corruption Committee have have messaged. We, ah as an observation mission, also have sent several cases to law enforcement bodies about our findings.
Speaker: ah The other concerning thing that we have witnessed, and we have witnessed it more than we did during the last maybe 10 years, ah was um use of administrative resources and misuse of adminative administrative resources. We have seen several cases of some social benefits given to people before the elections, some ah raises of salaries of municipal workers, some bonuses being given, public workers being brought to rallies to attend the rallies during the work time. teachers, principals, ah even school children being brought to rallies and attending the rallies ah during school time, which is another problematic issue by itself.
Speaker: So, yes, it was disappointing, to be honest. And for us that across the parties or is there a particular... Well, administrative resource.
Speaker: Well, usually the ruling party has the administrative resource. Although I should mention that in municipal level where other, for example, opposition leaders were like the heads of the local government bodies, we also have witnessed misuse of administrative resources by them as well.
Speaker: For our listeners who have observed with Democracy Volunteers, it's amazing actually the striking difference between the Armenian process of voting and the yeah UK process. I'm wondering, Mary, if you could offer some insight into how you actually vote as a citizen in Armenia.
Speaker: ah Yes, actually our process of voting itself is a bit complex, but I promise every single step has its reason behind it.
Speaker: So first, the
Speaker: enters the polling station. And the first thing that he does, he needs to have either a biometric or non-biometric, or an ID card, which is just national passport that is used internally.
Speaker: So you're approaching with those documents to the voter identification machine and the specialist who runs this machine. machine It is basically tablet with a vote with the voters list of the polling station ah inserted in it and not on the polling station, the and the polling stations, other polling stations as well.
Speaker: And ah you give that specialist your ID. First step is he visually identifies you and compares your photo of it with the photo in your document.
Speaker: And then he runs your document through the machine. Machine scans the document and ah identifies that you are in the list and you haven't voted before.
Speaker: So if everything is okay, green light appears and the machine prints a receipt with your photo and your number in the voters list in it.
Speaker: You take the receipt and go to the physical voters list and ah they find your number in physical voters list, your name, surname, and you sign it, making sure that Indeed, you were physically in the polling station and you did vote in the polling station. I forgot one important step before that. So before the scanner printing the receipt, you also need to provide your fingerprints.
Speaker: Another form of information. Yes. Another form of information. Well, it's not really identifying you. It's collecting the fingerprints. So if anything is...
Speaker: not okay they can't find you um so you're providing fingerprints taking receipt going to the physical voters list signing the voters list and then with the receipt you go to um the person the pong um the committee member who is providing the balance well In Armenia, you don't have single ballot for all the parties. You're not marking for any parties. You have separate ballots for every single party or alliance that is participating in elections. The but ballot is like small piece of paper And the number of the party is written on it, pretty big, then the name of the party and the first three candidates name of the party list.
Speaker: So you need to get all the ballots for all the parties. You can't tell, like, I don't want to get this party.
Speaker: And how many roughly, ah how many parties would there be and how many ballots would you have to pick up? During the last elections, we had 19 parties participating. So you would get 19 ballots, although one of the parties drop out dropped out during the process. So you were actually getting 18 ballots.
Speaker: And last parliamentary elections, there were, if I'm not mistaken, 25 parties, 25 parties or alliances participating. ah So you are getting 25 ballots. It's a big number.
Speaker: I mean, Armenia has a lot of parties. I mean, we have almost 130 registered political parties in Armenia. um So you're taking all the ballots.
Speaker: You can't refuse to take one. And you're taking it like in a numerical order. So the commission member is taking every single one in front of your eyes so you see that you get all of them and with and one envelope and you're going to the voting booth and the voting process itself is pretty simple you're just taking the ballot of your preferred party putting it in in the envelope and Putting the rest of the unused ballot papers inside of the voting booth, there is ah but there's a box where the unused ballot papers needs to be put. And the ballot itself is not a sensitive material.
Speaker: And it is done on purpose because if there is any way to try to control the voting or do the carousel or make sure that, I don't know, to ask people to take pictures of their vote, the person can just take picture of any ballot and then pull any other unused ballot of any party from the box there and make sure that there is no way to control his vote. So people have the understanding that Basically, there's almost no way to control how they vote, to oversee how they're trying to vote.
Speaker: And after that, you're leaving the unused ballot papers inside and you're going to the other commission members who is taking your receipt from you and exchanging your receipt with the sticker that is put it on your ballot.
Speaker: So as soon as the seeker is put it there, now that boat is a sensitive material and now it needs to be counted. So you're putting it in the box and you're leaving the polling station.
Speaker: The process is late. Yeah, I mean, the forms of identification, how long the process actually is. Is there any kind of pushback against that length or is there an understanding that actually it it needs to be so rigorous?
Speaker: No, actually there is general consensus and understanding that we are making sure that no violations can happen during the E-Day because, ah well, for democracy so new and so fragile as it is in Armenia, the legitimacy of elections and the trust of the public towards the electoral processes is the most important active that we have as a society.
Speaker: it It is a consensus. So ah but for example, our voters' lists, signed voters' lists are being published ah after any day. So every single person can go on the central election
Speaker: committees side and look at the list for in their polling station and see if they vote someone if they didn't participate, if there is a signature like on their name or if one of their relatives voted who is not, for example, in Armenia. And apart from that, all the voters list is public with all the voters information, for example, addresses and stuff like that. And it is consensus. I mean, in terms of um personal data, it may seem problematic, but we are kind of
Speaker: um measuring the greater gain of having democratic elections and some personal data being available that you can get from other sources as well. And actually, we have ah got several recommendations by Venice Commission that this publishing personal data is problematic. But as we have consensus within the society that this is a necessary measure of safeguarding the integrity of electoral processes, no one is really against that. I mean, maybe there there are people but they're not majority for sure.
Speaker: i like I guess that's voting in person. is Is there any ways to vote if you're overseas, for example? No. um So, I mean, for overseas, only ah diplomatic personnel and people who are serving overseas can vote by postal voting. And those are just a couple of hundred of people.
Speaker: Otherwise, there is no way for for you as an Armenian citizen to vote overseas. um also because it is very hard to safeguard the integrity of electoral processes overseas. You never know what what is happening.
Speaker: um
Speaker: But when we're talking about voting, ah well, other ways of voting, so we have this clue in our legislation that allows people who need help for voting who can't cast ballot themselves ah to invite someone to help them to cast their ballot.
Speaker: But it needs to be like genuinely their free will, like to, don't know, I want to cast ballot for this party.
Speaker: that person is just helping them to put the ballot in the envelope. And this person who's helping can't be, i don't know, observer, party proxy, candidate, media representative, commission member, anyone who basically has a badge and has a right to be in polling station. It needs to be another citizen.
Speaker: And they come and register in the polling station with their personal details and passport number and everything. Um,
Speaker: But we have no way of making sure that this person, even though within one polling station, this person can help only once. we I don't think of a way of making sure that in other polling stations, he's also not ah helping people, helping people to vote, somehow abusing this system of helping.
Speaker: and making it to into it into a controlled voting. So we are also trying to find legal amendments for that.
Speaker: And I guess that leads on to, and I guess, Mary, that leads on to I guess, your conclusions from the observation of the recent Armenian election. Can you briefly kind of summarize what recommendations or areas of improvement you have identified during your observation?
Speaker: Sure. So after every single election, we ah come up with list of recommendations and priorities for our advocacy work ah based on the risks and the issues that we have witnessed.
Speaker: the As I mentioned, we have seen cases of lot buying and misuse of administrative resources. We have seen pretty coordinated and massive ah foreign information manipulation ah
Speaker: campaign done in Armenia by... some foreign actors, some hate speech being and the hate speech and disinformation being around during the election electoral processes and some ah issues with party funding transparency and third parties campaigning and spending unknown amount of money for or against certain parties.
Speaker: So to address those issues that we have witnessed and also some voters being brought to Armenia from overseas to vote during the E-Day and as they were, for example, offered money or some, in some cases, some airplane tickets were brought for them or some other, um,
Speaker: For example, we had cases of voters like arm mean voters in that way were Armenian citizens, but they weren't Russian citizens yet, and they wanted to get Russian citizenship.
Speaker: And they were approached by unknown people and offered help gaining through Russian citizenship if they come and vote in Armenia.
Speaker: so just for partying And is this one of the fears around overseas voting as well and postal votes? Yes, we have witnessed, I mean, as an observation mission, we don't really know ah to what scale this um but this was, like these voters coming to Armenia.
Speaker: But only our findings that we have had 126 cases of people telling us that either their relatives or their friends or family members from Russia or not only Russia were offered to be brought to Armenia to come and vote for a specific political party.
Speaker: Thank you, Mary, for this fantastic conversation. I guess just to finish for our listeners, can you identify the main and the most important area that you think the Armenian election needs to be improved?
Speaker: Um, Well, it to be honest, right now we have pretty good and solid electoral legislation when it comes to the election day.
Speaker: But majority of the issues happen before or after elections. ah We need to improve our legislation regarding the definition of administrative resources, because right now our legislation regarding the admit use of admin resources for elections is pretty narrow. and it helps some people to find loopholes and bypass the legislation. Also, it is critically important to
Speaker: um find amendments and adapt amendments regarding third-party financing, third-party campaign, and transparency of political finances to try to limit the influence of those grey money and unknown actors on the electoral processes in Armenia.
Speaker: And maybe another thing that is also important, um strengthening the capacity of the oversight bodies to not only...
Speaker: um do the administration and preparation of the electoral processes, but to truly oversee and monitor the process and if needed, use sanctions regarding certain violations.
Speaker: Thank you very much, Mary. Thank you for your time. Thanks a lot for having me. I hope it was not that hectic.
Speaker: Not at all. You have been listening to the Democracy Volunteers podcast, and I'm your host, Joshua Paisley. In the coming weeks, I will discuss all things elections, from the role of electoral observers to the effects of social media on our country's electoral campaigns and political landscape.
Speaker: Thank you for listening. You can listen to the Democracy Volunteers podcast across all your favourite websites on Apple, Spotify and YouTube. Thank you.
