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AI vs Hippocrates: Fixing 2,400 Years of Bad Habits with Dr Ish
20 Plays1 month ago
Healthcare isn’t broken, it’s just built for the wrong outcome. It’s optimized for treatment, not health.
Dr Olusegun Ishmael saw that up close as a physician and instead of working around it, he decided to rebuild it.
In this episode, we get into the real shift: from reactive, episodic care to continuous, AI-driven engagement. Not theory, actual behavior change, real patient patterns, and what it takes to keep people healthy before they hit the system.
We talk about where AI actually works in healthcare (and where it doesn’t), why patient behavior is the hardest problem in the room and what it looks like to design care that’s always on—not just when something goes wrong.
Because the future of healthcare isn’t more treatment. It’s fewer reasons to need it.
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Transcript
Introduction to Olushagan Ishmael and Mira Health
00:00:13
Speaker
Well, I am just jazzed for our conversation this evening. umm Super excited to have Olushagan Ishmael with us. And here's a little bit about what we're going to talk about. This episode explores a critical shift in healthcare care delivery. Ola Shagan is founder of Mira Health. Mira Health is moving the global paradigm from acute episodic care, a model that's largely been unchanged since the time of Hippocrates 2,400 years ago, to continuous proactive engagement. So we'll unpack Ola Shagan's personal and professional journey, his physician-driven motivations to solve patient noncompliance, and the development of Mira's AI co-pilot that makes this continuous health support idea accessible to everyone irrespective of socioeconomic status.
Journey from Nigeria to the US
00:01:05
Speaker
So welcome Olu Shagan.
00:01:08
Speaker
oh Thanks Erin, thanks Amy. gruy Great to talk with you guys tonight. Yeah same same. Last time we spoke you were traveling all across europe Yeah, we're spending a week with each kid. We've went from about through four countries, the UK, Italy, France, Switzerland. headlines All the good ones. ones.
00:01:37
Speaker
and c Incredible. and you are very well-traveled and just have such a rich background. So maybe ground us in that before we really dig into some of the topics that we have on deck tonight. Tell us a little bit about where you come from and some of the early experiences that shaped you.
00:01:54
Speaker
So I'm going to take it way back. um Remember that cartoon comic, the guy, the The little dog and his, that wore glasses, he says the Wayback Machine. So I'm going to do the Wayback Machine. Wayback. So I actually came to the States when I was just about to become five.
00:02:17
Speaker
Didn't speak English. My parents came to the States for college. My dad did his master's in Chicago. But it was an interesting mindset to go from a kid who didn't speak English in a third world country to overnight and in six months was supposed to be in kindergarten in Chicago. Totally a whole mindset change. from world So I created Sesame Street and Electric Company for quickly getting up to speed with English.
00:02:49
Speaker
yeah but so So I am truly a fan of PBS, the public's um NPR and all the public broadcasting system. Fast forward um at 13, my dad decided he wanted to give back to his country of birth. We went back to Nigeria.
00:03:07
Speaker
So once again, another major paradigm shift because I'm like, okay, what are we doing? Going from a first world country back to a third world country. But it was great experience. um finished high school in Nigeria, then subsequently went to medical school.
00:03:25
Speaker
And one of the key things that hit me while I was there compared to the States is medical school was free. And I'm like, you're in a third world country and they're paying for your medical education and coming from a first world country, one of the richest countries in the world, and you end up in debt to go to college and you can get your
Healthcare System Inefficiencies and Innovation
00:03:45
Speaker
education. I'm like, so there's something wrong with the world here.
00:03:49
Speaker
yeah But the experience for me from a medical perspective was then coming back home to the States, getting training in family medicine in Gary, Indiana, and then subsequently getting my MBA because I really wanted to know how how do we pay for healthcare? How do how does this thing generate money?
00:04:09
Speaker
From getting my MBA, i also got a fellowship in how do we train physicians? How do we train medical students, et cetera? Fast forward ah from there, work for multiple insurance companies. um So I'm like, okay, first had experience of how this thing called healthcare care generates trillions of dollars every year. Then from there, went to group practice and then from group practice as an administrator, then subsequently to hospital administration.
00:04:41
Speaker
And then, okay, this whole model of healthcare care for me wasn't working. I'm like, this doesn't make sense. So got a patent on on a component of the tech that we built.
00:04:55
Speaker
And then now today, spent the last one year building this healthcare platform. Just looking at the fact that everywhere you go, everywhere in the world, everybody has a smartphone in their hand.
00:05:06
Speaker
So I should say, what is the data? So I think right now we're about 90 plus people around the world have a smartphone device. And then it's so, and the expense has gotten cheaper and cheaper compared to when it first came out and it was like the size of us a suitcase. It was just a brick.
00:05:27
Speaker
Yeah, everybody's walking out with this leather bag it with this brick. Yeah, my granddad had one. It was pretty pretty wild. You could really someone with that. then fast forward you're like, okay, what is this thing that we now hold? Everybody holds in their hands. oh And then with the advent of AI, I'm like, okay, we are the perfect moment to change the model of healthcare. care So that's been my journey, um really from experience in healthcare in multiple different countries, multiple and leading in multiple different settings, from academia,
00:06:05
Speaker
um because technically i'm so I believe I'm still a clinical assistant professor at IU and Indiana University to managed care to hospital administration. So really in gotten a like a lot of pieces of healthcare care under my belt.
Importance of Health Literacy and Patient Compliance
00:06:22
Speaker
yeah Yeah, absolutely. i think it's a really unique perspective. And i I don't know that there's really anyone who's not sold on healthcare care is is maybe too much or or likely too much about shareholder value and not enough about patient care.
00:06:39
Speaker
i Certainly, you know, i I sometimes wonder where my monthly premiums go when I have to go pay for care again at point and foot point of care, point of service. um So I don't know that we need to spend a ton of time on that. But what I'm really curious about, you mentioned patient noncompliance. And I, you know, i think that's, that's,
00:06:58
Speaker
definitely real ah for a lot of people finding it really hard to follow instructions or make lifestyle changes for the good of their own health. But tell us a little bit about from the point of view of a physician when you were in that seat, what did it feel like to interact with patients who were non-compliant and suffered as a result?
00:07:21
Speaker
So it's interesting because i always, you see, when I teach the residents, and even now when I'm helping our inpatient service, we as physicians are trained to be very paternalistic.
00:07:33
Speaker
We feel like we're supposed to tell you everything you're supposed to do. It's like, Aaron, you're supposed to do A, B, C, D, and E. Amy, you're supposed to it. And it's like, wait, but guys, compliance also starts from health literacy.
00:07:51
Speaker
And if we're not explaining to patients, the patients don't get it. So, for example, you got have this and this is a classic reason why this is the main reason why I was impetus for getting my patent initially.
00:08:05
Speaker
I have this 75 year old woman in rural Indiana comes in and I'm like, OK, didn't we just see you a couple of weeks ago? and And I'm in the ER. And she's like, yeah. I said, okay, can we see your medication? And she literally brings out a bag of medications, a grocery bag, and dumps it. And I'm like...
00:08:23
Speaker
So you spend the whole day taking medications basically. She she laughs, I say, yeah, she's short of breath. So she's in congestive heart failure because she hasn't taken her medications appropriately. But there's so many of them that we've written over time and some actually duplicates of the same medications and she's unaware. So one that's part of the health literacy.
00:08:45
Speaker
She doesn't know why she's taking a medication and for what reason she's taking it and what the impact are of taking it or overtaking or not taking it is going to be. so So that's the first thing in compliance is health literacy.
00:08:59
Speaker
And then the issue then follows it is that as patients are doing things, we need to explain to them what is the disease process. um So I explain hypertension to people by saying, let's say,
00:09:14
Speaker
I am supposed to push, and then we talked about I have a pug. If I'm supposed to push my pug, it takes no effort. I mean, she weighs 18 pounds. Now, if I'm supposed to push an elephant, that's going to be a whole different, that's a kind of a lot of more work.
00:09:30
Speaker
And said, okay, and then let's take another example. Let's say hi hypothetically, we take a garden hose, connect it to your wall at your house outdoors, but take that same garden hole and connect it to a fire hydrant.
00:09:43
Speaker
m I said, so your elephant and the fire hydrant is your high blood pressure. It's that elevated blood pressure. From the fire hydrant perspective, that tube, your blood vessel is not going to be able to sustain that kind of pressure for too long. It's either going to explode, it's going to tear, something's going to happen.
00:10:05
Speaker
From the example of using the elephant, And pushing it, that's a lot of work on your heart trying to push through that pressure. i said, so then people are like, oh, so when you tell me I have hypertension, high blood pressure, now I get the consequences of my heart is having to work a lot. So I could, the heart eventually could fail.
00:10:26
Speaker
If the example of the blood vessel with um the guarding hose could cause a bleed in my brain, it could also damage my kidneys and other organs. So people are oh, I get it.
00:10:39
Speaker
yeah So now it's easier for them to be compliant because now they realize the impact of not doing what they're supposed to be doing.
Mira's Role in Post-Discharge Patient Care
00:10:46
Speaker
So I think that's the way I look at um compliance.
00:10:52
Speaker
I've had a patient, for example, in her 40s because she's like she's felt a lump and she's like, I'm going to ignore this. Fast forward, she shows up in advanced stage of breast cancer.
00:11:07
Speaker
then we have to do mastectomy. She goes into acute depression because in the culture that she comes from, she no longer feels like she's a woman without the breast. Her breast is gone. So now we've gone from a fully functional professional female who is now in acute depression, lost the breast, potential, it's spread to the lymph nodes, so there's a potential spread.
00:11:33
Speaker
So from something that maybe we could not prevent, but we could have called early enough if she knew like, okay, I feel something that doesn't feel like it's supposed to be there and going to see her doc.
00:11:44
Speaker
And part of the compliance issue is also the access issue. So we start from health literacy compliance and then being able to have access. So I've worked in rural hospitals around the United States where You can't get a cardiologist, you can't get a urologist, you can't get specialties in those rural hospitals in a timely manner. So there's an access issue. So all of those play into the whole healthcare paradigm.
00:12:11
Speaker
So what we're trying to do is create that health literacy and make the patient actually be their own advocate. So, and question the doctor and say, hey, Ish, Dr. Ish, what am I, you tell me i supposed to do this, but why?
00:12:30
Speaker
And when I say something, they say, why? And why aren't they fully comprehend? They're like, okay, this is what we're supposed to be doing. So that's the way i look at it. How often do patients in your experience ask why or ask for things to be explained? Because I don't know if it's just me or a generational thing or whatever, but I just sit there, listen. I'm like, yeah, okay, okay. And then I don't have any questions because I don't know what I don't know. so I'm just like,
00:13:02
Speaker
Thank you. And then so you hit you hit the nail on the head. Give give you a personal example. I'm teaching because used to be faculty. So I'm teaching residents and I'm sitting standing in the room as a resident is actually interviewing and taking a history from a patient.
00:13:19
Speaker
The doctor walks out to go get the prescription of the printer. um And that was the day before electronic prescribing. so He leaves a room and I'm like, someone, Mrs. Smith, we're going to use Mrs. Smith. Mrs. Smith, what did he say? And she's like, I don't know.
00:13:40
Speaker
i said, but why you smiling and nodding at him? Like you get it. And she's like, He wasn't talking with me. He was talking to me. So I'm like, okay. And he's a doctor. so he Yeah, um he knows.
00:13:54
Speaker
That's the main thing. He knows. And he says, I'm going to take the prescription. And she's nodding. So one of the things I've always encouraged my medical students and residents is if you tell a patient something, ask them to regurgitate it back to you.
00:14:07
Speaker
So small. Yeah. So, so if I say, Aaron, this, this, this, and that, saying, so Aaron, so what is the plan now? What are we going to do? And why are we doing this? So that helps to begin the, I'm not sure what I don't know.
00:14:23
Speaker
Yeah. Cause you're starting to get. Yeah. So part of that is, is the health literacy that we were talking about. Yeah. Cause it's just not there actually in your normal experience. You know, they're You're in and out. I don't know if this is for everyone, but you know, when you go for your physical, the doctor comes in for a very brief moment of time. You have a nurse that checks all that, all their blood pressure and this, that and other. And I still couldn't tell you, by the way, what the numbers mean.
00:14:56
Speaker
Like that they tell me like your blood pressure is this. And I'm like,
00:15:03
Speaker
They're not wheeling me away, so I'm guessing it's okay. And then you should ask. You should ask. I'm hearing you say this, and I'm like, why have I never been like, okay, but what does that mean? Like, I'm in fault. What does the top number mean? What does the bottom number mean? yeah And what should it be? And why?
00:15:24
Speaker
Instead, I just go, yep. Yep. Thanks for telling me that. so And then in there for a hot minute. And it's quick, quick, quick, and then gone. And you're like, oop.
00:15:35
Speaker
okay And that's where we've coined, or I've coined the term the in-between. in-between between when you're well and when you're sick. That's where i feel is a sweet spot of the in-between. So when we say know your numbers, it's like, okay, my blood pressure is 120 over 60. Okay, it's normal. But what does that mean? So that's the in-between where we want our tool, mirror.
00:16:02
Speaker
I call her. We want her to be able to explain to you like, Well, what does that 120 mean? It means that when your heart squeezes and pushing the blood out, that's your top number. When your heart relaxes and it's not pushing it out, that's your bottom number. So real simple.
00:16:22
Speaker
So you can understand that. it's like a pump. Your heart is a pump. When it squeezes, pushes blood out, that's a higher number. and when to and you need a certain And you need a certain amount of that push out.
00:16:34
Speaker
So let's say your body is a high rise and you got the pump on the oh that pumps water, the water pump in the basement. You need a certain amount of pressure from that water pump to reach the penthouse.
00:16:49
Speaker
Yes. So if your blood pressure is low, that top number is too low, you don't get enough blood flow to your brain. So if you feel dizzy... Or you're older and you stand up suddenly, so that pump is trying to catch up to raise it. Because now you're going for a month. It's not definitely happened to me.
00:17:11
Speaker
question so know I tell women that you don't get older, you get better. You like wine. Yes. You get better with age. I'm like a fine wine over here while I'm getting dizzy standing up too fast. I want to go back. I i am thinking about your first example, Lulshigan, that you shared about the 75-year-old woman and hypertension. Maybe just the the education piece is bringing me back there. but We talked about this paradigm of of people just going to the doctor when they're really sick and not paying a lot of attention in between from when when they're feeling well and all the space between those two points.
00:17:53
Speaker
In the example that you shared, what would good have looked like for that patient to take more control in between? Yeah. So good for her. So she comes in for congestive heart failure. So basically her heart isn't pumping and reaching all her organs.
00:18:08
Speaker
And it typically shows up in shortness of breath or her legs are swelling, or she feels like I get easily when I eat, I get easily full. So the kinds of lots of little nuances that she can begin to understand. So in an ideal world, when we discharge her with all her meds, it's like, okay,
00:18:30
Speaker
Mrs. Smith, this does this, this does that, this does this. These are the side effects. And say, okay, Mrs. Smith, so this pill, what does it do and how does it affect you? So she goes home.
00:18:45
Speaker
ah In an ideal world, because we don't have enough people to be making phone calls to every Mrs. Smith that we discharge, but we look at but what we're trying to build at Mira is Mira will say, oh, Mrs. Smith, you just got discharged from the hospital with congestive heart failure.
00:19:03
Speaker
So the next day is going to ask her, how are you feeling? Are you short of breath? Do you feel like you are it's harder for you to walk the same distance that you did when you got discharged? And if any, at any point in time, she says, yeah, I'm getting more short of breath. So we know that maybe her lungs are filling up with fluids. Mrs. a Smith.
00:19:23
Speaker
You got discharged. Let's get you to make sure that you weigh yourself every day. And automatically from her scale, it sends it to Mira and says, Mr. Smith, you gained two pounds.
00:19:35
Speaker
You're saying you're further short of breath. Why don't we send a message to your doctor? And it may be something as simple as, have you been taking your medication? Because part of what Mira is going to be doing is reminding them i reminded her to take her meds every day. But let's say she is taking her meds and things are still not going well.
00:19:53
Speaker
send a message to her care provider team and who says, why don't you double up on your diuretic, your water pill today to get some of that excess fluid out of your system?
00:20:03
Speaker
And that Yeah, exactly. So that in between begins to lengthen. Yeah.
Empowering Patients through Technology
00:20:10
Speaker
Cause she probably wouldn't have called a doctor to say um this today. And so it just gets worse and worse and worse until... sat in the office. Yeah, I think this is genius, honestly, because we, how do I say this politely?
00:20:28
Speaker
In a lot of ways, as your mus brains as technology has advanced, we've got a little stupid about things that we shouldn't be. And I think having something available to help you track your my medications, cause it's all well and good having the little like pill boxes, but like, you know, that's only goes so far. And so i you know, I think about like all those little nuances about like weighing yourself or, you know, how are you just checking in with yourself? Like how you feel to gauge whether those meds are working, but then what did also strike me, sorry, I'm like getting very obsessed with this whole thing. But when you ask the doctor, say you do have like a grocery bag full of medication and you've asked and you've done the right thing, you've asked the doctor, they don't have time for you to sit and write that all down and what it all means. So would that all be in the app too, that you could just look up the medication and be like, oh, this is what it is.
00:21:33
Speaker
so Our ultimate goal is that if you are on five medications, it will list what the medications are. It will tell you what they're doing, give you side effects. And the goal is the AI component would also begin to query you about potential side effects and say, so Mrs. Smith, do you know you're diuretic?
00:21:55
Speaker
You may be losing potassium. Potassium. are you taking your potassium pills or maybe you need to go get a banana today? eat an extra banana Because are you getting cramp cramps in your leg? and Which may be one of the first things that she's going to notice that, God, I feel like my legs are cramping up. It's like, Hey, maybe you want to talk to your doctor about you're getting your potassium checked. So we envision a system where in,
00:22:22
Speaker
two, three years, it actually is having full conversation with you. To your point, we've become so addicted to our technology and it's kind of made us kind of but how about the technology actually makes us smarter and more engaged with our health?
00:22:42
Speaker
Because what I've always told patients is, it's And this is no disrespect to people. i am your doctor, but I don't own your body. You own your body.
00:22:53
Speaker
You should own your health. Just like when I take my car into the shop, the guy fixing my car, he's like, it's not my car, it's your car.
00:23:03
Speaker
mean Whatever happens, i when he I leave that shop, it's my car. And when you leave the doctor's office, you should begin to think, take ownership of your body and your health. And I think that's ultimately what we want people to begin to do is take ownership.
Technology Alleviating Healthcare Provider Pressures
00:23:22
Speaker
But to your point, doctors don't have, I mean, I got 10, 15 minutes with you. Yeah. I've had patients come in and say, thank you, Dr. Ish for helping me. And I'm like, Okay, let's be honest here. I spent 10 minutes with you, 15. I said, the nurses actually spent more time with you than I did. So why don't you thank them?
00:23:41
Speaker
They're thanking me. They schedule you pretty aggressively. Is that why you have to go around like that? How many appointments is there going on at one time? So the thing about it is, I remember when managed care first started, we you had a certain number of patients you had to see. um Even now, as an administrator in the health system, you're like, okay, Dr. X needs to see a certain amount of patients every day to make his volume and his productivity
00:24:12
Speaker
So we're all on this rat race and this hamster wheel and spinning it. but will But part of it is how do we maintain quality and still be productive?
00:24:25
Speaker
Also knowing that we don't have enough healthcare providers, whether it's nurses, physicians, physical therapists, respiratory therapists, we don't have enough healthcare care providers and we're not doing anything immediate immediately.
00:24:37
Speaker
to tackle the immediate problem or even in a long-term problem. so Yeah. Like you said, it's just so expensive to go down that route if you're in college, for sure. and Something that you just talked about, which I'm also interested in, is the addiction to cell phones and everything's got to be made fun for our like simple minds. So was there any thought around like gamification or like sharing and in your app?
00:25:06
Speaker
So one of the things we wanted people to be able to do is create own community. So for example, you and Aaron could create your own little community. So if you're on a certain medication and Aaron's on a certain medication, So when you you're notified to take your medication, so I took my medication. ein could be You can say, I want Erin to be my partner in this, or you can create your spouse as your partner and say- Probably be more reliable to ask Erin. Exactly.
00:25:35
Speaker
And I learned this from two situations. One is when I have specifically men, when men come in, say, can i speak to your spouse? And I make the spouse response. and I said, because John is not going to do what he wants to do. So yeah john's not goingnna John is supposed to do A, B, C, D and E. So I want you to, and if John is not going to do it, i i want to make sure you have good life ins insurance on him. So when you just kick the bucket, at least you're taken care of.
00:26:08
Speaker
yeah Yeah. So so and then i remember a professor of mine once, they always find a secondary gain for patients. So, John, would you like to walk your daughter down the aisle or would you like her to wheel you down the aisle when she gets married?
00:26:23
Speaker
so so So those are the kind of things. you guys So we created a situation where you can create your own community. And the other piece about what drove that was when we first did our initial beta test,
00:26:37
Speaker
One of the users, she said, my dad lives in Arizona ah on his own. He wanted warmer weather than Chicago. And she's like, so when he gets notified, can I get notified? So those were kind of the things about creating your own personal community.
00:26:52
Speaker
But what we also thought about is creating a bigger community in the mirror spaces. For every question you answer ah for everything you do, you get a certain amount of points.
00:27:04
Speaker
So then you can, so you and Aaron, for example, can be, you may not even know who Aaron, you may not know who Amy is, but you know, Amy is about the same age as me. She's female, but she's got 200 points and I only have 10.
00:27:22
Speaker
What's going on here? And then you're like, well, She's gone, she's had her mammograms, she's had a pap smear, she's had her blood work, she knows her blood pressure, she's had her annual physical, she's had a whole, her vaccines are up to date and you're like, oh, okay.
00:27:38
Speaker
And human beings being competitive, like, okay, okay, what do I need to do to get that? Or what do I need to do to move up? With the ultimate thing that even insurance companies, I remember when I worked for insurance companies, we used to also send,
00:27:55
Speaker
gift cards to people with when they did certain things. So that is ultimate goal is that when we create those points system, can you not translate those points to real world? But even in the, people play Pokemon for points. Oh, I know.
00:28:09
Speaker
And they're walking into the middle of traffic. I know, trying to catch something that's not bad. Exactly. So we if people would chase Pokemon for points, Let's at least get them to chase their health care. Good health. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. oh you are asking Just take care of yourself so you can enjoy life.
00:28:28
Speaker
It's genius. And a tech company needs to solve this because I will say I've seen a couple of attempts to do something similar from insurance providers. And most recently, my insurance provider shared with me some sort of gamification opportunity. And I clicked on the link and the link was just broken. But but the thought was that. It was a nice thought. But insurance provider attempts to build engaging application didn't didn't go so well in this case.
00:29:02
Speaker
And you're 100% right. And that's, so the other point is, it's not just a tech company, but you want a tech company that has provider involvement.
00:29:13
Speaker
So one of the advisors I have on the team is a geriatrician. She's a professor of geriatrics because I know as a population is aging. They're going to be a core part of our population that we expect to be used in this.
00:29:26
Speaker
But we also got to make it usable for that population. Is it the visibility? Is how do they interact with the UX? so So you want providers to be engaged and you want the tech company to understand the technology and the coding. So as I'm sitting with my chief um technology guy, the CTO, and I'm explaining it, he's like, if that doesn't make sense. So now I have to break it down to have and he's like, I get what you're trying to do now. So then he translates what I'm trying to do into that language. So it's an interplay of multiple people coming in.
00:30:04
Speaker
And then we also have users who are like, no, that doesn't make sense. I wouldn't do that. Or that like your point, the link doesn't work. yeah yeah Like, okay, I can't get in. The link doesn't work. It's too complicated. It's too many steps to do ABC. People do give up very easily too. yeah I gave up immediately. Yeah.
00:30:25
Speaker
Yeah, because that's the society, the world we live in. We are a fast food society. We want immediate gratification. So if it's not easy, we're not going to do it. I'm going to do it. I just I just think about, you know, my family and, you know, my grandma, she's in her eight s but she can scroll Facebook all day long. So she's not struggling with the phone. But how nice it would be for me in Chicago and my mom who lives in London my aunt who lives up in Yorkshire, and who's not too far away, but the rest of us are all
Mira's Global Vision for Patient Care Involvement
00:31:03
Speaker
so dispersed. It would be so nice if we had a way to be like,
00:31:07
Speaker
okay, I can, grandma's doing okay at the minute. yeah to know That would just make me feel better. so I think it's a really great thing. You said it perfectly because we were doing um a pitch for interns at Illinois Institute of Technology, IIT.
00:31:26
Speaker
And this guy came up, one of the students, he says, I wish my dad had this in India. I'm like, wow, he's like, because he's in a hospital because he hasn't been taking his medication. He hasn't been doing what the doctor tells him. So if I knew he wasn't, I could call him. When I talk, he's like, I talk to him at least every other day. And like, so dad, why are not doing what supposed to do? And he's like, why? do you mean? Because I know because the system is telling me you're not doing what supposed to do.
00:31:53
Speaker
Right. Because, so you know, we just a soon. Such great conversation with Dr. Ish this evening. And if anybody out there is interested in learning more, you can follow Dr. Ish on LinkedIn, pop his name in the search bar and you can connect with him there and follow Neera Health for more updates.