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022 | Racism and the Western Church
315 Plays5 years ago
Phylicia and pastors of Grace Innovation Church in London, UK, Emmanuel and Samantha Danso, talk through some of the most common questions regarding racism, Christianity, social marxism, and how believers can honor the image of God in others.
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Transcript
Introduction to Verity Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Verity. I'm your host, Felicia Masonheimer, an author, speaker, and Bible teacher. This podcast will help you embrace the history and depth of the Christian faith, ask questions, seek answers, and devote yourself to becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ. You don't have to settle for watered-down Christian teaching. And if you're ready to go deeper, God is just as ready to take you there. This is Verity, where every woman is a theologian.
New Season & Bonus Episodes Announcement
00:00:30
Speaker
Hi guys. So it might be a little bit surprising to you to see an episode coming through in your subscription. And that's because we have not started our brand new season of Verity quite yet, but we do have two bonus episodes coming to you. One of which is this one. In this episode, you're actually listening to the transcript of an Instagram interview on racism.
00:00:55
Speaker
with my friends Emmanuel and Samantha Danso who pastor the church Grace Innovation in London, United Kingdom. I know that this will be such an encouraging conversation for you and I hope that you enjoy it as much as I did. And so without further ado, let's jump right to that conversation.
Interview with Emmanuel and Samantha Danso on Racism
00:01:16
Speaker
Hello friends, my name is Felicia Masonheimer and today we are going to be talking about racism in the body of Christ.
00:01:24
Speaker
And so I am so thrilled to be introducing you to Emmanuel and Samantha Danso who are pastoring a church called Grace Innovation Church in London. And so they will be joining me in just a moment here and I'm so excited to have them join and up, there they are.
00:01:44
Speaker
All right, as we wait for them to come on a little bit about how we met, I actually did a feminism interview. Ah, there they are. Hello, so good to see your faces. How are you? Good, I'm good. I was just telling everyone how we met.
00:02:05
Speaker
Yes. So we met when I did a feminism video for Grace Innovation, which is your church in London. But why don't you tell us a little bit about yourselves and Grace Innovation before we jump into this topic? Because I know we want as much time as possible to cover this.
Mission of Danso's Church
00:02:25
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Well, my name is Emmanuel. I'm Sam. I'm the pastor of Grace Innovation Church in southeast London.
00:02:33
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We're just all about preaching the gospel, helping people come to the revelation of Jesus Christ, what He has done in the cross, what He has finished for us, and just walking the life that He called us to live, being fruitful in all that He's brought us to do. And we just love preaching Jesus, literally. And we feel that Jesus kind of
00:02:55
Speaker
keep the message of the gospel impacts every arena of your life and I know we're going to talk to you know the gospel and sin and things like that and I just thought like that's our passion our passion is to to bring people to the saving knowledge of Jesus and to help them grow in the word of God and we just have a passion for the local church and
00:03:15
Speaker
really teaching the Word of God as well. So yeah. We're based in London. As you can tell by our actions. All of us are so jealous of your beautiful house. I don't know if you can tell but yeah we're not from America but it's all good anyway. Yeah so yeah based in London got two babies, two little ones and so if you do hear them guys please forgive us we have tried to
00:03:37
Speaker
the bedtime routine tonight, but it's just not working. We understand, totally understand. And anyone who goes to your profile, so welcome to GI is the Grace Innovation Profile, can so easily see your passion for the gospel and for biblical literacy, which is something we were just talking about in my account yesterday, my friend Ayanna, that understanding the gospel and how it applies to life, not just reading your Bible, but knowing how to apply it,
00:04:07
Speaker
to the issues of life like feminism or racism or whatever we're talking
Racism & Transformation in the Church
00:04:13
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about. And so I am so excited to have you here. But before we begin, I wanted to read a quote from a book I have because I know that this topic is a heavy one and some people may feel
00:04:27
Speaker
know very overwhelmed in us discussing this but this is from the book What Lies Between Us by Dr. Lucretia Berry and she says, racism is a recent invention that has come to inform how we think about virtually every aspect of our society and culture and yet we struggle to talk about or even define it. We the church are part of the solution for racial healing
00:04:50
Speaker
We are the light that drives out the darkness. However, as we seek to transform the world, we must first allow ourselves to be transformed. As the Apostle Paul said in Romans 12-2, do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And I thought that
00:05:08
Speaker
foundation for what we're going to talk about today. And so I really just want to highlight your thoughts on the issues that we're going to bring up. Obviously, I'm in the US, you're in the UK. I wanted to ask you first, would you say that based on the news, what you can see are some of the issues surrounding racism? Are they similar in the UK? Are they different? What differences or similarities are you seeing regarding that?
00:05:37
Speaker
First, can I just, let me just say this one quick thing. I know it's very easy to say, ah, a couple of black guys, they must be the experts in this. Now, we're just coming to share our heart. We're just coming to just really kind of use this conversation to minister and to see where God takes it really.
00:05:54
Speaker
where we don't know everything on this, but we can share our experiences and what we understand from the scriptures to kind of support what we're saying. So just want to let people know before you ask us some expert questions and we're like, dude, we can't even answer it, but we're going to do what we need to do to kind of bring
00:06:12
Speaker
some form of education to the topic from our experiences.
Experiences of Racism in the UK vs US
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I just wanted to lay that foundation first of all. But to answer your question to the best of my understanding knowledge, there are, I will say the slack there, racism is everywhere. Yeah. And here in the UK, we experience racism. It's not as, and I just, I kind of want to make sure I'm using my words wisely here. It's not as loud, not as loud. It's not as aggressive. Aggressive. That's the word. Okay. It's there.
00:06:42
Speaker
It exists, but what we see, the difference between the US and the UK is that it happens in subtle ways. It's not aggressive. It's not as aggressive and in your face. But there are similarities, similar issues. Similar issues. And the reason we can say that is because what happened to George Floyd, everybody could sort of resonate with that situation.
00:07:09
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that automatically showed that there is similarities. Although it might not show the same face, there are similarities across the board. People are feeling the same pain and the same hurt across the board in some way, shape or form. I mean, I'll give you an example. A couple of years ago, I went to watch a football match, which you would call soccer. You guys would call it soccer. We call it football.
00:07:36
Speaker
I went to watch a football match. And as I entered the stadium, the field of 85,000 people, as I'm walking down the stairs looking for my seat, I am being racially abused as I'm walking down the stairs to find my seat. And not one person turned up and said, Hey, stop what you're saying. That's not good. Then they allowed me to walk down the stairs. I looked for myself and I said to myself, man, I mean, I love football. I love soccer.
00:08:04
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I never returned to that stadium
Gospel as a Solution to Racism
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again, ever. Even when my national team went to play, I refused to go because I was treated like some form of, I don't know, it was so disgusting and it was almost shocking. I didn't know what to do. And I was walking down the stairs and I'm racially abused as I'm looking for my seat. I sat down and then not one person
00:08:29
Speaker
could speak up and say, that's not right. And it made me think for a second. That was probably one of the most aggressive moments I have faced. I've faced multiple situations, but that one person really caught my attention and thought to myself, wow, this issue stems across the whole world. It's not the United States of America. It just has different faces. And it's time for us as Christian people to be the light in the world and to really begin to express Jesus and show
00:08:59
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show the world how we ought to do that. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So one of the things you just touched on was that this is a pervasive issue. It's worldwide, right? We know that racism is a sin. Now what we're often hearing from many people in the white evangelical community is racism is a sin issue. So sin is solved by the gospel. So
00:09:28
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What will often be said, or what we're hearing in America, is the solution to racism is the gospel and nothing else. What do you think about that argument? Well, go ahead. So here's my understanding, here's my knowledge, and here's what I feel I'm going to share. If racism is a sin issue, and the gospel is the answer to the sin issue,
00:09:54
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then we cannot deal with racism. And like I said, people might disagree. That's fine. I just want to share my heart. Racism is the same issue. The gospel is the answer to the same issue. Then we cannot discount the gospel in dealing with racism. However, how we express the gospel in different environments and different spheres of life
00:10:21
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is the key because what we're seeing is that people are going well no racism is a social issue and we need to deal with it with social such and such and such you know in the height of the moment you're going to reach Jesus that's not the time to be saying Jesus Jesus Jesus when people are so angry it's just about knowing the method of reaching people and addressing that particular issue and I think what Sam and I were talking about we were saying that
00:10:50
Speaker
As a Christian, you should never remove the gospel. It's the foundation by which we believe. But now, if I was to walk into Parliament, which would be your... Our Congress. Our Instagram makes me nervous. I forget. But if I was to walk into Parliament, discussing this issue,
00:11:17
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and shout Jesus, they will open the back door and they'll tell me, can you please pass through? That's what they'll say. If I was to walk into another place, give me another place. If I was to walk into church now and preach the gospel to people who understand the gospel, they will say amen to it. If I walked into parliament or congress and preached the gospel, they'll walk me out through the front door. What I'm trying to say is that
00:11:46
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We never remove the gospel. The gospel of the foundation. But how we deliver it and how we deal with it in different environments will be key. There's a way to influence racism in a right way to remove it through Parliament. There's a way to do that. We don't mean to discount the gospel, but the method by which we reach certain spheres and environments might look different. And it is where the Holy Spirit comes in because we will be directed by the Spirit.
00:12:14
Speaker
so we might not have the answers to it in the bible like right go to parliament and do a b c and d right the answer won't be there in that sort of way they might not receive it but the holy spirit will direct you with how to deal with it in parliament so you bring figures to parliament you you tell them about the right that's going on the wrong that's going on going on where they can make a difference um in sharing jesus or sharing the gospel but without actually saying
00:12:42
Speaker
be saved, you're going to hell. And that's where wisdom comes in. I'll give you an example. I was working in my office and a difficult question came up. And sometimes when you're the only Christian in your office and a direct question comes up on a difficult topic. And they know the answer. They're just trying to trap you. You have to apply wisdom
00:13:10
Speaker
so that you're able to answer the question but yet still present Jesus.
00:13:17
Speaker
So you've got some people in your right saying, no, it's a sin issue. Gospel is all we need. Jesus. You've got something then, no, it's not a sin issue, yes, but gospel can't deal with it. We need to do social reforms. There's some element of truth. We need some social reforms. We need some changes. However, as Christian people, we should never, ever, this is my opinion. This is my view. We should never, ever discount the gospel.
00:13:44
Speaker
In any message we put, it is the foundation of what we stand for. Now how we take it to the environment we're going will change, but the message will always remain the same. That's what we'll do. So gospel is the answer to the thing, but the message in how it's delivered will look different across the board. That's right.
00:14:04
Speaker
I love that. So what I'm hearing is that yes, it all begins with the gospel and gospel principles, but the world is unsaved. Our governments are unsaved. So there are social measures that need to be taken.
00:14:20
Speaker
but that comes from, that's flowing out of the spirits leading and gospel in you. So it's one of the things that I have said when this argument comes to me is yes, the gospel is the answer,
BLM Slogan vs Organization Ideologies
00:14:33
Speaker
but the gospel has your legs. The gospel has your hands. So, so when you say that jives with what you're expressed. I think it has to stem from the church. We,
00:14:49
Speaker
have to set the pace we the church the body of christ we have to show the world how to live in equality and reconciliation we have to show the world is we set the pace and if we can't get this right within the church then the world have a bigger problem on their hands and that's what you're saying because for me before i'm going to fix anybody else's family i've got to make sure my family my own family sort of
00:15:18
Speaker
My own home, I've got to make sure my own, my own room is sorted. And I feel like if the church took more of a responsibility to say, let's deal with this in-house, but the scripture says judgment will begin in the house of the Lord. But it's coming to the house, look, let's deal with the house first. And then when we get our house in order and ensure that this thing is dealt with, then we can go and show the world, this is how you do it.
00:15:47
Speaker
And I feel like this is where the gospel, and this is where I feel like the gospel is vital in this whole reconciliation process because the church needs to understand the gospel. That's a word right there. It's amazing how the church needs to understand the gospel. We need to understand the gospel and understand how the gospel impacts on racial issues. We need to tie up reconciliation
00:16:17
Speaker
sort things out and then now we're ready for the lord to send us out into the water and say hey we've got a way that works come check us out and give glory to jesus the bible says that they may see your good works and give glory to your father who's in heaven i'm always in church when i'm with you guys on one of these i'm just gonna fly across the ocean
00:16:44
Speaker
So I love how you're expressing this because it really does get rid of the cop-out argument of just preach the gospel because we don't use that argument with anything else. We don't use it with abortion. We don't use it with
00:17:01
Speaker
issues of gender or sexuality, it really is only used, at least that I've seen in America, regarding racism. It's almost to say, there's nothing we can do except preach Jesus. Really, when you're living Jesus, when you are following Him, that impacts how you're acting. And, like you said, Sam,
00:17:25
Speaker
It's going to be so Holy Spirit led. It's going to look different in different environments and certain people will be led to do different things. So one of the things I wanted to touch on in the US, and this is a question I'm receiving a lot and so I just want to address it because I think so many people have this question. We have the organization Black Lives Matter. They tend, if you read their mission statement, to support critical race theory.
00:17:55
Speaker
And the idea that everybody contains an inherent racism. So every white person is inherently racist. They also support LGBTQ movements, transgender movements, and they tend to embrace social Marxism. And so a lot of Christians are really hesitant to even
00:18:19
Speaker
go there because they're afraid, I would say mostly afraid or nervous about aligning with ideologies that don't match Orthodox Christianity. And so I wondered if you could speak into that at all, have any wisdom for Christians who truly want to
00:18:40
Speaker
work against racism in the church and in the world, but when it comes to interacting with the world, they feel like they must align with this ideology or they have to completely get out. These are some good questions, man. Wow. Do you know what? It kind of reminds me of the feminism chat we had. That feminism
00:19:07
Speaker
actually did some good things for women. But when you dig deep into some of its other beliefs and roots, it kind of goes in a different direction to where Christianity goes. Right. So you spoke about being pro women instead. Right. Yeah. Likewise, it's like Black Lives Matter, the secular organization, has beliefs and roots that do not line up with
00:19:37
Speaker
Christian background understanding theology and just Christianity in general. However, what I've seen, and here's what I just want to share my heart with you. What I've seen is that Black Lives Matter, the slogan as in Black Lives Matter, the slogan is what most people are saying.
00:20:00
Speaker
not black lives matter the organization. And so what you find is you've got people, the slogan has kind of swallowed up the organization. And the Christians, I mean, again, it's like, I don't want to use this to some extent, it can sometimes be a case of we're trying to
00:20:24
Speaker
The slogan in itself, if there was no Black Lives Matter organization, does that slogan Black Lives Matter? Does that make sense? Does it without the organization? And I think sometimes we just have to pull back a little bit and see, okay, what's actually happening here? Because what took place across the world was not the organization. It was people who were hurting and crying because they were
00:20:54
Speaker
filled with so much pain. And they were shouting a slogan to say, hey guys, we need some attention. Our help is on fire. And I just feel like sometimes it's really good to understand the roots and backgrounds of certain things, but it's also, we need to sort of pull back a little bit and go, oh, actually we need to be able to differentiate between the slogan and the organization.
Understanding BLM as a Cry for Equality
00:21:20
Speaker
The slogan Black Lives Matter is so important. And can I add something for so from a white girl talking to my white evangelical audience? It's incorrect me if I'm wrong, but the slogan Black Lives Matter, it's it's almost more like Black Lives Matter to
00:21:42
Speaker
Because the assumption is that they do not matter. And so when people respond with all lives matter, blue lives matter, these lives matter, they're actually missing the point of what Black Lives Matter, the slogan was meant to say, which was the assumption like all lives do matter.
00:22:00
Speaker
But in society, based on the actions and the things we're seeing happen, it seems like, and it is, that Black lives don't matter. So that's where the slogan came from. It's saying, no, they matter too. Draw attention to these lives. It's not that autistic lives don't matter and Black lives don't matter. It's not as if they're alienating these other
00:22:25
Speaker
groups, but I just wanted to, that was something that I think some people don't understand and they feel threatened and they feel like you're just saying that only one group matters when in fact it's drawing attention to a group of people who based on societal norms and the actions of government and people as a whole, it's been expressed that their lives don't matter as much. And so would that be accurate?
00:22:56
Speaker
That's on point. And to be honest with you, like I am black and I don't really even know much about the organization itself, but I was supporting the slogan. And what I took from that was, okay, changes need to happen in society because a group of people are suffering.
00:23:15
Speaker
in the hands of other human beings. And so what the slogan meant to me was like, right, I need to go into society and figure out and find a way of how I can make some changes or how I can improve the relations between human races in my own unique way, you know, in how everybody tells me. That's what I took from the slogan and recorded it. I didn't really jump into the organization. I don't really know much about them, but what I do know is they do support a lot of the things that as a Christian, I don't stand for. So basically what I'm trying to say is
00:23:45
Speaker
I took the slogan and took myself away from the organization. After I found out a few things about it that I wasn't 100%. I didn't 100% agree with, but I took what the slogan meant to a lot of people in the world. Yeah, a lot of people, to be honest with you, what it meant to a lot of people and took that on board and tried to figure out, how can I make a difference? Because it's a race, a group of people that are not being treated fairly. And I think that's how we should tackle some things sometimes.
00:24:13
Speaker
We just have to use wisdom. There will be, the organization sometimes might bring up cases and you might not agree with the organization, but the particular topic they've brought up needs to be addressing. And we can't really keep quiet and hide away from it. So we, okay, we take on that topic. How can I make a difference as a Christian? God, what, how can I make changes in this particular area? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if everyone has different opinions in it, I mean,
00:24:42
Speaker
For me, personally, first of all, I want to agree with you, Felicia, that the Southern Black Lives Matter was just basically saying, hey, guys, our house is burning. Get us out of here. You need help. Give us some attention. We need some help here. We're burning. It's like walking down the street. I think there was a picture on Instagram where you had all the houses on the street
00:25:10
Speaker
they weren't burning apart from one house. One house was burning and the person with the firefighters came over and they started shouting, saying they started shouting, all lives matter. So all houses matter. So they were ignoring a house that was actually burning to try and save the people who were in houses that were not burning because all houses matter.
00:25:36
Speaker
And it's like, no, you're missing the point. The house that's burning at the moment matter right now. Because that's the one burning. Not to say that no lives or no houses matter. It's just the one that's burning now. It's almost like it was what took place in the world recently with the George Floyd. It was amazing. Because I saw black people
00:26:06
Speaker
I saw white people, I saw children, I saw all races coming together to say enough is enough. To me, I believe Christian people, we can't even, to bring out the point, yeah, but all lives matter, means you've misunderstood the whole concept of what's taking place here. And we can't cop away from
00:26:33
Speaker
addressing the issue. We know that all lives matter. We know that all lives are important. But right now, there's one group of people, a race that is suffering the most. And it's like, all right, guys, come on. And this is why I say it starts from the church, because we should understand compassion. We should understand what it means to feel the pain of someone else, even if you haven't walked their shoes. Remember, we spoke about this, we should help me to understand
00:27:03
Speaker
what you've been through. And hence the reason why the white man and the black man, we need to come together. Have a conversation. Talk to me about your culture. You talk to me about your culture. Let's no longer be afraid of one another. Let's allow the love of God to allow us the freedom and the boldness to walk into your culture and enjoy your culture, just as you come into our culture and enjoying our culture. We are all, technically, we're all from one race, the human race.
00:27:30
Speaker
you know so for me it's like let's enjoy each other let's enjoy our differences if we were all alike oh my gosh i'll be like lord come take me to heaven now i can't deal with myself i mean i need differences diversity we need to diverse i mean we need that you know a bit of diversity in life and i feel like the quicker we grasp this the better life we'll be that's just me and you know what when i'm with you we're praying for this i was reminded or just reminded us of the political sun
00:27:58
Speaker
So in that moment you have this, so the sun goes off. Everyone doesn't know the story. So you've got these two sons. One son takes his inheritance and runs off, goes and wastes it, comes back home. And then you have this other son that's such a good, you know, a good son. And so the dad obviously throws a party for the son that comes back. And you have the good son, look at the dad like, hang on a minute. I matter as well. Why do I not get a party?
00:28:29
Speaker
And in that moment, what he should have been thinking is like, come and experience the privileges that I've been experiencing because of being the son of our father. So in that moment, he should have had compassion and been so full of joy that his brothers come back. So come along, let's go experience this privileges of being
00:28:48
Speaker
our father's sons and it's quite it's the same thing it's like okay you know we've had these privileges as you know white people or this person or that person and in this moment you're not having those privileges for whatever reason people feel like you can't have those privileges but i'm going to stand with you and i'm going to pull you along so you can experience the same privilege that i have and
00:29:08
Speaker
And so in that moment, it's not about, okay, yeah, my life matters too, but it's like, okay, I can, I can see that I've experienced some privileges or I've experienced some good things that you also need to experience. We could grow a human being just like me. And so I'm going to stand with you and we're going to move together and fight through this. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I love this question. It's a challenging one. Do you know what it does, Felicia? It really does address the way we think. It's addressing us head on.
00:29:39
Speaker
When you hear Black Lives Matter, yeah, but all lives matter too. Wait, hold on a minute. I didn't say all lives didn't matter. I just said Black Lives Matter. Yeah, but all lives matter too. No, but I didn't say that. I just said Black Lives Matter. And it's almost like, it challenges our thinking like, oh, hold on a minute, where did that come from? Where did that come from? And it's in those moments as genuine believers, we need to go back and say, Lord, what's going on here?
00:30:06
Speaker
Why is my response to Black Lives Matter knowing and seeing what's going on? Why is my first response? Yeah, but all lives matter. That's not what I did. I didn't say all lives didn't matter. I only said Black Lives Matter right now. So why is that happening? It really challenges us head on. And I feel like it's a challenge that needed to be presented. The church needed it too. And it's time we don't run away from it. We address it. And that's like I said, I come back to this whole situation
00:30:35
Speaker
let's deal with it within the church first because it's there too. Yeah and with that gospel centered motivation which is what we've talked about thus far is this begins and ends with the gospel it begins with the church dealing with this within our own walls and where this the slogan Black Lives Matter comes in is it's drawing our attention to a relevant cultural problem that the church and the gospel need to address.
00:31:05
Speaker
So, you know, I think we can tend to get very distracted by the politics of it and the stats and fail to Actually say you know what? Okay, so there might be some people out here manipulating numbers or doing our political things But let me talk directly to myself
00:31:22
Speaker
friends who are black, who are brown, what's their experience like? What is that? For example, Emmanuel shared earlier in this interview of going to a stadium and being verbally abused essentially is what I'm hearing. And so that's an experience that I have never had as a white woman. So hearing that gives me that perspective
00:31:49
Speaker
and something that I can enter into as your sister in Christ. And I think that's where, at least in the American church, we can tend to be like, you know, get hung up on associations with the slogan and the words and, and, well, I need all the details and instead let it drive you. You know, yes, those things can matter, but what's the point? The point is,
00:32:13
Speaker
The gospel needs to unify us in healing and supporting one another in this area. Would you agree with that?
00:32:24
Speaker
110 percent. 110 percent. Okay, I want to keep you on. Make sure we're all on the same page. One of the reasons I wanted to have you on is because I love your gospel focus and I think you really bring such clarity to these issues by showing that it's not either the gospel or action, it's the gospel motivates action.
00:32:49
Speaker
And like Sam said so well earlier that it's wisdom and knowing how do I bring this gospel-motivated action into these secular spheres? Because like you said, Emmanuel, you'd be tossed out Parliament's door out of Congress's door if you try to go in there and say, Jesus wins over me. Get saved and go to hell. And they would look at me and they would strangle me right through the back door. They'd send them through the back door. Go on, move it in. Go on.
00:33:20
Speaker
Oh man, that picture is so funny to me. So as we get towards the latter half of this interview, one of the things that often comes up is what are some ways that, you know, we're specifically talking about Black lives here. So let's continue in that vein.
Promoting Dialogue and Education in Church
00:33:39
Speaker
What are some ways that your white brothers and sisters can support
00:33:44
Speaker
encourage you, how can they emphasize the value of Black lives and break patterns of racism in the church? How can we, what are some ways you think we could do that? You know what? Which one of them? I think it first starts with education. And to be honest with you, actually, because this is something I myself am learning. I saw because right now in society, you kind of get this, well, with social media, especially when everything kicked off.
00:34:15
Speaker
It was so loud that if you didn't have a voice or you didn't post something, then you were not affected by it, or you were agreeing with the wrong that was going on. I mean, I saw a post on social media by a black individual saying like, you know, just because you're black doesn't mean you're qualified to talk about it. And then I was sort of like put back like, okay, should I really be saying something? And I really had to go off social media. Now that's me as a black person. I can only imagine.
00:34:40
Speaker
What other races might feel like, okay, I can't really speak. So they sort of feel like they're in between. Like, do I say something? Do I not, you know, if I don't say something, I'm supporting it. If I do say something, or actually, you're not going to fight. And so I think it just starts with educating, educating yourself, just learning and knowing what, what the wrongs were, what the wrongs are, because a lot of people are still affected by what happened years and years and years and years ago, things that, you know,
00:35:09
Speaker
They never experienced personally, but they're firmly experienced. And I know in America, it's really, you know, you have all your stories passed down from your great grandparents to your, you know, your mom told you the story about happened to her mom or her dad and all this stuff. So it still feels quite real for them because they know the story so well. And it's just about educating yourself on what's happened, what's happening, and just coming from an empathetic place.
00:35:36
Speaker
I feel like the way that our white brothers and sisters and our black brothers and sisters, all of us, we can come together and really begin to break these walls is, like you said, educating yourself, but breaking down the fear of dialogue. I mean, just come and know me because when you know me as a person and you get to know me as a person, that wall of, it just, it breaks down and we just, we need to be open
00:36:06
Speaker
We need to be willing to be open to step into the life and the culture of other people. And I think we need to practice this in the church. Come and find out, you know, why does my hair grow like this? Why do you have hair like this? Why did my hair grow after one day? I mean, why do you have an aspirin?
00:36:23
Speaker
you know I can explain that to you you know stuff like that and it's like not having fear me being different to you does not mean that I'm weird and awkward no it's showing the beauty of our God the awesomeness of our God that how his wisdom is manifold I mean breaking that barrier of let's have a conversation let's talk about this and sometimes get in person and I love what you share this about
00:36:52
Speaker
There was a fear. I didn't respond to the whole rate. When it all kicked off, I didn't put anything up for about a week because first and foremost, I didn't even know what to say. I'm not going to lie. I didn't know what to say because everybody was, everyone's words were being dissected. It was so awkward. I was like, you know what? I'm going to wait. I'm going to pray on it. And I'm going to comment as and when I feel I have the words, but in actual fact,
00:37:20
Speaker
If we had more of an open relationship within the church, when black folk and black folk would come together and we could talk and just share and break that wall and address that there is a wall there sometimes, then we can begin to see improvement. We can begin to see the possibility of our white brothers and sisters, because they understand us now, then they can help us in areas where maybe in the past they would never have been able to. But it comes through conversation. It's a simple condition. Remember Jesus?
00:37:48
Speaker
When you spoke about this last time, when you came on our show, he stopped and went to see the woman at the world, the lady at the world. He needed to go that direction. And all he did was sit down and have a conversation with someone that wasn't even expecting him to have a conversation. He entered her world. He said, hey, lady, I have living water.
00:38:13
Speaker
She goes, live in water, give me some of that water. And he said, no, no, wait, wait, wait. Before I give you the water, let me come into your world. Talk to me about your husband. I haven't got a husband. Oh yeah, he had five. He's the boyfriend. He's the boyfriend. What's he doing? He's saying, hey, I'm not afraid to come into your world.
00:38:40
Speaker
I'm not afraid to let you know that I know where you are. I'm not afraid to step in, but I'm not coming in to condemn you. I'm not coming in to knock you down. I'm not coming in to beat you up. I'm coming in to heal you in those areas you're hiding. I'm coming in to understand you and let you know I know about it and I'm ready to lift you up from those places. I'm not coming out away from the issue. I see the issue.
00:39:07
Speaker
and I'm ready to have a conversation so I can provide you in conversation with the healing necessary to go in and be who you need to be. If we would have conversations and not be afraid, we could accomplish so much.
00:39:19
Speaker
I love that example because so often, you know, and I think this could even transcend the race and racism conversation with any issue of having the conversation with people walking through different trauma, different experiences, where it's really easy to give a pat answer
00:39:43
Speaker
Or a statistic or politicize something when it's not when you're not face to face with somebody, you know, it's so theoretical. It's all, you know, fact against fact and Facebook when you aren't actually in relationship with people and asking them, how are you doing?
00:40:03
Speaker
With all this what what how does how do you feel about this? this was something that I was reminded by a friend of mine during the height of the tensions over George Floyd and She said you remind me check on your black friends see how they're doing ask how this is affecting them because that experience can be Retraumatizing for some people
00:40:29
Speaker
And like you were saying, Sam, like even you were like, this is, this is so difficult. I don't know what to say. I feel like I don't know. Should I say anything? And so there's this sense of.
00:40:43
Speaker
in the church being truly a body being in community caring about what other people are walking through it's so so basic but i think at least in america it's become such a politicized issue and we have people who are so worried that entering into this conversation at all will make them a social marxist
00:41:04
Speaker
That they won't even step foot in the water or they do the you know It's a sin issue the gospel will fix it which we addressed at the first half of this video
00:41:14
Speaker
And so I just love that you're drawing it back to those gospel centric conversations in the church.
Church's Role in Leading Racial Change
00:41:21
Speaker
And that's where healing happens. That's where we can grow, both of us can grow in understanding. And because one of the things I think for me, I grew up in an area, and this is the breakdown of the demographics in our area. It is 94% white.
00:41:41
Speaker
Yeah, 5% Native American, 1% every other ethnicity, because that's who settled here. It's a rural Midwestern area settled by Swedes and Germans. So that's, that's where I grew up. That's my experience. I did not have a black friend until I went to college.
00:42:02
Speaker
I wouldn't have known anything about the experience. And so it was very awkward for me at first to try to have a conversation because I didn't know anything about the experience of being Black in America. And so for that journey of actually asking those questions and being in community and saying, what is it like to be Black in America? What do you experience that I don't experience? Or my friends who are immigrants from Korea or Paraguay,
00:42:30
Speaker
What is it like being an immigrant in America? What's that experience for you? It's just, it's something that's so simple and yet when we politicize it, we actually take the legs off the gospel. That's right. And we end up not living out the gospel's obedience in what I'm hearing you say. Isn't it interesting that sometimes when we overcomplicate matters. What you do with the gospel?
00:43:00
Speaker
we lose the solution to the matter. It's like, you mean just by having a conversation, we can begin to make progress? Yes, a conversation. But when we allow politics to show the church how to do things, we lose, we get distracted and we lose our way. That is why we started this conversation of saying the church need to lead the conversation on you.
00:43:30
Speaker
Jesus said I'm the way, the truth and the life. I want to know the way to get through the situation properly. I want to know the truth about it. And I want to know how to find life in this situation. Oh, that's a word right there. I need that on a shareable quote.
00:43:46
Speaker
This is going to be saved on IGTV, right? Yes, it will be saved. I love that because yesterday, my friend Ayanna and I, we did an interview about the John Christ situation. It's an American Christian comedian who had a sexual abuse or molestation case.
00:44:06
Speaker
And one of the things that we keep coming back to in that issue is the church should lead. Why is it that Hollywood is setting the standard of calling out abuses or holding people accountable? That should be happening in the church. First, we need to, like you said at the beginning, we need to be dealing with our own, caring for our own. And if we can't do that, we can't be a city on the hill for the culture. Exactly, exactly.
00:44:36
Speaker
We need to be brave and bold. And at the anchor of this, I remember what you shared, I'll never forget this Leisha, you said equality is the bare minimum. We should be looking to treat people better than ourselves. We should be looking to love people beyond. Equality is the bare minimum. And I feel like sometimes even Black lives matter, it's going to be strong, is the bare minimum.
00:45:07
Speaker
The next stage should really be, are Black lives equal? Are we equal? The same laws, it's not necessarily change your laws. It's necessarily, it comes down to the point, are you applying the laws equally across the world? And I feel like there will never be any reconciliation until there's equality. But as a church, as the body of Christ, the topic of Black lives matter. Really?
00:45:37
Speaker
I mean, that's the minimum of the minimum. It's the minimum. We know what scripture says, and like we talked about in the feminism video, it says, I'll do one another in showing honor.
00:45:51
Speaker
If that were our methodology, if we let that be like the lens through which we looked at our politics and we looked at these situations, it would change how we have these conversations because our first thought would be the honor for this image bearer of God.
00:46:16
Speaker
And I think that's the key. And it's, you started off with a quote talking about renewing your mind. And I feel like this is a, it's not gonna happen overnight. It's a journey because you see racism, I looked at my child, I looked at some kids and I looked at them and I said, there's not a racist bone in that child. So it needs to be, it's almost like it needs to be passed down
00:46:46
Speaker
From one generation to another generation to another. Because when a baby is born, a baby can't tell the difference between who's white and black. They're interesting. I mean, my son goes to school. He's hugging. They're all hugging each other. You know, I mean, they were saying, you know, during this COVID period, kids are going to be hardest to handle because they don't understand social distancing. Right. And on the first day back,
00:47:11
Speaker
I mean, we say, don't make sure you stay two minutes apart. I mean, completely ignored it when it hugged all his friends. They don't see the difference between white, black. So where does it come from? Someone has had to have passed that down and ingrained it on your mind and in your heart to such a point where you see a black person as a different complete species of people.
00:47:37
Speaker
So when we're talking about renewing the mind, there's this Bible scripture in Ephesians chapter four, which says renewing the spirit of your mind. I think it needs to go deeper than this. I'll just change the way you think. Let's take it deeper. You need to get this into your spirit. We need a complete transformation in our spirit to the point whereby if we ever hear a racist term, it's like it makes us even vomit. It's like, hey, where's this coming from? Right.
00:48:03
Speaker
I feel like that's how deep the renewal of the mind needs to go. So we can really uproot this issue and see change and progress in society. I love that. So true.
00:48:15
Speaker
And some of our commenters are saying that it's going to take time and that's true. It takes that time both personally and corporately that we as a corporate body are each individually doing the work but also corporately held accountable.
00:48:34
Speaker
across the world. I think this is something that the worldwide body, like if you're not Catholic, you know, we don't have a pope, right? We don't have an overarching church that's over my church and over your church, but we have Christ as our head.
00:48:49
Speaker
And so when you are walking in the Spirit of God, you will have that same desire to keep the Gospel central, to have a heart that's being, the Spirit of your mind is being renewed according to the Spirit of God. So that same Spirit of God, that heart of compassion, that heart for the Gospel is going to be found in you and in me across the notion because we're unified in the same Spirit.
00:49:18
Speaker
You hear this all the time where people will say, well, you can't unify the church on this. Well, if you're following the gospel, you can. Exactly. This is my point. And do you know what? This is going to be so heavy, but I have to just share it. When the gospel is the center of your heart, it doesn't mean denying what's going on.
00:49:47
Speaker
but it just means don't let what's going on become the anchor of your soul. Jesus has got to remain the anchor of your soul. You don't let what's going on in society determine your view of life. You have got, and I'm so passionate about this, Jesus, I mean, Jesus has got to be everything. I mean, how you respond to this situation, you got to ask the Lord, Lord, what would you do?
00:50:13
Speaker
Sometimes when things get difficult for me, Felicia, and I don't know what to do as a pastor, I sit there and go, no, I don't know what to do. What would you do? What would you do in this situation? What's your response? To some extent, what my concern was that Christian, even Christian, black people, black Christian,
00:50:43
Speaker
What did I say, Christian? Black Christians. That we were getting so drawn in by the anger of the world, we were no longer standing for justice, potentially.
Seeking Justice with Christ at the Center
00:50:58
Speaker
It could lead that way. We now want vengeance. And there's a thin line, and I'm just like, oh, Lord.
00:51:05
Speaker
unless I keep you at the center, I could get so angry and bitter. Because you could. If I don't keep you at the center of this thing, I'll lose my mind. And I'm like, I can't afford as a black person to let the politics of this situation
00:51:23
Speaker
dominate my heart so much that it removes Jesus who delivered me, set me free from all of this out of the way. I've got to deal with this for even as a black person who's been racially abused multiple times. I can't afford, I'm sorry, I have to say this. I'm speaking to every black Christian out there. We are Christians first. We're Christians first.
00:51:53
Speaker
So when we know that we then are positioned and ready to face the issue head on, not for vengeance, truly for justice, not for vengeance, with the key being reconciliation. This is where it comes. And I feel like it's okay to be upset, be angry, no one's saying don't hide your feelings, but don't allow your anger.
00:52:22
Speaker
to move you into vengeance. And we have to set that example. And we have to set that example. Because people are truly, truly angry. And to them, it's like, I will not have peace until I see you have that. And so you suffer the way that we suffer. The way my grandparents suffer. And it's like, hold on a minute. Let's start afresh. When will this end? And you can understand the pain. You understand the pain. Exactly. But we as the Christians need to set that example. I mean, this will not be popular.
00:52:52
Speaker
I'll be so honest, this is not popular because when you're angry, you want to get the person back. You need to suffer for what you know. If we want, if for my kids to enjoy a better life, I have got to sow the seed of reconciliation.
00:53:12
Speaker
That is a word for all of us. And I can think of so many situations for my own life that that same word applies where the anger and the desire for justice has that thin line over interventions. And so thank you for saying that. That's convicting to me for my own experiences and relationships. That's extremely powerful. That's so, so solid.
00:53:37
Speaker
I wrote down a couple of the things you said because I got to make them into some shareable quotes because I got you good. So as we're getting down to the wire here, I just want to thank you guys so much for coming on and sharing this. Before we go, I would love for you to share where people can find and follow you. You can find me on IMG answer.
00:54:02
Speaker
I told you Instagram gets me back sometimes and you can follow us on Instagram and you can follow our church on at welcome to GI and we just want to say we love we love love love your ministry
00:54:17
Speaker
We can't wait. So this COVID thing is done and you are coming down. We are getting you down in the UK. I'm so excited. I've always wanted to come to the UK, but that means that we've got to do a trade and we've got to get you over to the message.
Conclusion & Connection Details
00:54:33
Speaker
to the graphite norm. Well, thank you again, you guys. And for those of you watching and listening, it is I am E. Danso. Is that right, Emmanuel? And that's Samantha Danso, D-A-N-S-O. And Perch is Welcome to GI, which stands for Grace Innovation Church. They post their sermons. You have a YouTube also, is that correct?
00:55:07
Speaker
Well, I can just assure those of you listening and watching that the sermons that they have on their YouTube are phenomenal. They're so encouraging. If you enjoyed this video, you will love following them and being encouraged by their heart for the gospel. So thank you again, you guys. You're such a blessing to me. And I know that this will encourage many. Thank you so much, Felicia. Thank you so much.
00:55:33
Speaker
Thank you, see y'all. Take care. Bye-bye. Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Verity. You can connect with fellow listeners by following me on Instagram at Felicia Masonheimer or on our Facebook page by the same name. Also visit FeliciaMasonheimer.com for links to each episode and the show notes.