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156 | Chatting with a 4th Generation Member of "The Way" 2x2s
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In this week's special podcast episode, Phylicia interviews Angelika Rasper, former 4th generation member of "the Way", also known as the 2x2 sect. In this interview Gel shares what the 2x2s are, what her experience was like growing up in the group, why she left and how she has healed since then. This interview is included in our new Freedom from Legalism course which launches today, March 28th! Through March 31st, the Freedom from Legalism course is $45 (one-time, lifetime access) and will go up to $60 after the launch. Former 2x2 members
Get access here:
Legalism Course: https://phyliciamasonheimer.com/product/freedom-from-legalism-course/
Old Testament Course: https://phyliciamasonheimer.com/product/understanding-the-old-testament-course/
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Transcript
Introduction and Context
00:00:00
Speaker
For me, it was just relief. It was just relief that we didn't have to do this anymore. For my parents, it was really hard. And I didn't know that at the time, but they lost everything.
00:00:11
Speaker
You know, they lost their whole community.
00:00:20
Speaker
Welcome back to Verity Podcast. I'm Felicia Masonheimer, your host, and we are in the middle of our series on false teaching and how to discern when we see false teaching in the church to- today.
Interview with Angelica Rasper
00:00:32
Speaker
I'm really excited for this week's episode because you get to experience an interview with my friend Angelica Rasper, who was a member of the 2x2 church, also known as the Way or the Truth.
00:00:45
Speaker
In her testimony, Jell is going to share with you what it feels like to grow up in an environment that is marked by legalism or rules-based religion and how she walked through that environment to the other side of understanding the true gospel.
00:01:05
Speaker
This is part of our new Freedom From Legalism course that launches March 28th through 31st, 2025. We're so excited to launch this new course, and I know that it will be a blessing to so many of you.
00:01:17
Speaker
So you get a sneak peek of it with this interview, but the full course has seven modules and multiple interviews walking through the process of identifying legalism, healing from legalism, and eventually sharing your own story so that other people can be set free.
00:01:34
Speaker
That's exactly what I hope for you as you listen to Angelica's testimony. Hi friends, and welcome to the last interview in our Freedom From Legalism course. I'm so excited to welcome to the studio today my friend Angelica Rasper, who's going to be sharing her powerful testimony today about leaving a legalistic environment, how to heal from those environments, and kind of what the reconstruction process looks like.
00:02:01
Speaker
Jell and I became friends through my sister and then have been in a theology group together and go to church together, and she's just been a huge blessing in my life, and I think you're really going to enjoy hearing her story and that it may encourage you in your own walk with God and finding freedom from legalism.
Beliefs and Practices of the 2x2 Church
00:02:18
Speaker
So Jell, why don't you first share with us what the group is that you were in and kind of what some of their beliefs were. Okay. So it's a little bit complicated because I didn't know what group I was in until about five years ago.
00:02:34
Speaker
So it's a home-based group. with no name. So that made it really hard once we left to know what group I had been in. um I knew that it was worldwide and i knew there were a lot of people in it, but without a name it was hard to track down what this group was.
00:02:53
Speaker
um So we are called the 2x2s by outsiders. um Inside the group we would call each other the friends, um the truth, and the way. so that's kind of like how we talked about it with each other.
00:03:06
Speaker
The claim was that we were started by Jesus. So because we were started by Jesus, we didn't need a name. Got it. Because it was the one true way to worship God. um And so we didn't need a name and we didn't need a building because Jesus didn't have a name for his group or a building.
00:03:24
Speaker
So we met in homes. We had meetings. Monday or Wednesday night and Sunday morning and sometimes Sunday afternoon and sometimes Thursday like a lot of meetings. Okay. um and um, the big, big tenant of the group is that, um, they are the two by twos.
00:03:43
Speaker
So the two by twos, why we're called the two by twos. Um, so they send workers out two by two in pairs. around the world to preach the gospel. Okay.
00:03:56
Speaker
The gospel for them is the way. So these these terms are complicated because it's not the gospel that you would, you know, that you would normally say. Like a different gospel than maybe you would hear if you went to a Baptist church. Right. Okay. So when they say the gospel, they're talking about their church. They're talking about their ministry of sending out ministers two by two.
00:04:18
Speaker
Okay. Yes. So, yeah um So these ministers are homeless and so sell everything they have to be in the ministry.
00:04:29
Speaker
They're celibate and they live in the friends' homes. okay Okay. that is the main thing about them. That makes them the two by twos. That's where that name comes from. That's where the name comes from.
00:04:44
Speaker
um So they believe that faith and salvation can only be obtained by listening to the preaching of the ministers. Okay, so you have to be hearing from directly from a two by two preacher right to hear the truth. From a worker, yep. So if you don't, you know, if you're a part of another church, you are not saved because you're not hearing...
00:05:07
Speaker
you're not hearing the aye truth from the workers.
Church Rules and Scandals
00:05:12
Speaker
um So let's see, they don't have any written doctrine. So that makes it interesting too, because um there's no written doctrine, there's no written rules, there's no evidence of them, um you know, documented.
00:05:30
Speaker
um So That makes rules vary per region. That makes doctrine vary per region. so everyone in this group doesn't believe the same thing. Really? Wow. Which is so fascinating.
00:05:44
Speaker
um But there are rules that are the same throughout the entire world. So I will say, i don't know like overseas how much, ah you know, this all overlaps, but I will say like in the United States, this is all pretty much accurate.
00:06:00
Speaker
um They only read King James Version Bible, which I think, you know, that's a kind of legalistic tenet is we only read one Bible. um They only sing hymns out of a hymn book called Hymns Old and New.
00:06:14
Speaker
And that book is written by workers. So these hymns are written by workers. Some of them, though, are actually hymns you would know. They have just been tweaked by workers.
00:06:25
Speaker
So words like grace will be taken out. Really? so there's no amazing grace? No, no, no, no, So yeah, it's interesting because we all thought these were just our our songs, you know, and then you leave the group and you go to a big church, which are, you know, very forbidden in the group.
00:06:43
Speaker
And all of a sudden they're singing your hymns at their church. goodness. I thought we called these. very jolting to, you know, be recognized that this wasn't written by a worker. um Wow. Wow.
00:06:55
Speaker
Yeah, so the group, um they don't have any church buildings except um for convention grounds. So convention grounds are used one time a year for four days.
00:07:08
Speaker
And people from all over the state come to these grounds and they have bunks. They have RV hookup sites. They have full commercial kitchens and dining halls and, you know, everything you need for like a church camp, basically.
00:07:25
Speaker
very elaborate usually. Um, and these are owned by wealthy people within the twoby two by two. So conventions are, um, so it's very interesting that we didn't have buildings yet. We had these massive buildings that we use for four days a year. Got it. Got it. um so other rules, our meeting attendance is very mandatory. So you need to call if you're not going to be there and there has to be a good reason why.
00:07:49
Speaker
um women are, um, like many legalistic, You know, religions, you can't wear pants, you have to wear skirts and dresses. um The interesting thing about them is that they don't have to be long skirts and dresses.
00:08:03
Speaker
They can be short, you know, short skirts and short dresses and tight and not necessarily modest, but they just need to be skirts and dresses. Got it. That's interesting. So that'd be a little bit of a difference from like more of like the independent fundamental Baptist context, which would be like long, loose.
00:08:19
Speaker
Right. So if you're very devout, you definitely are going to be dressing more um the like long, you know, but not everybody does that. Um, and you're still following the rules, even if it's short and tight. So, um, women can't have makeup or jewelry or piercings. Um, men can't have any of that either or tattoos.
00:08:38
Speaker
um You're not allowed to study the Bible earthy out theology outside of King James Version Bible and what the workers teach. So you can't read outside Christian material, okay listen to people like you,
00:08:52
Speaker
So would this be you're not supposed to, not supposed to. So, so would this be warned about in the meetings, like not to listen or just as it came up? Probably in a vague way. Everything is, ah very anal, like, um, analogies are very big, just kind of skirting around topics, but people within would know what the workers are talking about. yes, yes and no, you know, um It would be things like this would be mentioned, but in a very in a very hush hush. Yes. Okay. Okay. there's no TV allowed, um but you can have phones and laptops and tablets and all of that. Just no TVs in your house.
00:09:35
Speaker
Um, you can't celebrate Christian holidays or, you know, anything like Christmas, uh, Easter. Interesting. not Yeah. Because those are worldly Christian ah celebrations. Okay. Um, and definitely no visiting other churches.
00:09:48
Speaker
Okay. Very bad. um So rules that varied, there are a few things that I've just noticed that varied per region is like how much you can participate after divorce. Sometimes that's a hard and fast like you're out.
00:10:02
Speaker
you know If you divorce, or sometimes you're just kicked out. So both parties would be out if they're divorced? it depends. It depends on the workers. Per region. Yep. And like ah the same goes for remarriage, the same goes for marrying an outsider, dating, marrying an outsider.
00:10:17
Speaker
um and baptism. So requirements for baptism that would totally vary based on who okay you know who's there. And would that be how you were baptized or is that like what you had to do in order be baptized? What you had to do, I got it. Okay.
00:10:30
Speaker
Yeah. So, um, the group overall has about 125 to 200,000 people worldwide. They're guessing since there's no official, you know, documents, you can't say for sure, yeah but, um, that's kind of the estimated number.
00:10:46
Speaker
Um, and the last five years, that number has been cut about in half. So previously, it was a lot more, but, um, five, five ish years ago now,
00:10:59
Speaker
um I'm sorry if I'm getting dates wrong, but four or five years ago, a overseer, which is a leader of workers, um was found in a hotel room and he he had died in the hotel room. And,
00:11:12
Speaker
um he was in a hotel room, so that was suspicious because they were supposed to be staying in members' and friends' houses. Okay. And so it was discovered that he frequented hotel rooms with women, and that kind of opened floodgates for people that had been sexually abused by him, CSA victims, and thousands upon thousands of people have come forward in the last...
00:11:36
Speaker
four or five years. Wow. So, and is that regarding multiple sexual abuse cases from multiple overseers? Yes. So there's, there's over a thousand people, perpetrators now that have been named within the two by twos that, yeah. So is investigating and that's kind of what got our group into the spotlight in the last, you know, four or five years. Cause there's a documentary now about it, right? Okay.
00:12:02
Speaker
okay Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you for sharing all that. And I know that we have members of the community who are doing this course who are also like you, were members of the 2x2s. But also for those who who are watching this who aren't in that context, think it's helpful to hear how you described some of the behaviors that happen in other legalistic contexts. Like...
00:12:25
Speaker
don't listen to any outside churches or outside content. Only listen to our teaching. um Only listen to the authority that has you know been put over you. And then even down to like, you're still following the rules if your skirt is like super short and tight. Like you're within the rules, but you're like bending them as far as you can.
00:12:44
Speaker
I think that's such a marker of legalistic context because used to kind of joke, there was a joke that I heard among friends who were in IFB churches. They said you can tell what the pastor's struggle is um in legalistic IFB. I don't think they all are that way. They could tell what the pastor's personal struggle was by whether he preached on low cut shirts or high skirts.
00:13:09
Speaker
Oh dear. So you'd see a trend in some of these churches where the women wear really long skirts, but their shirts are really low or the opposite. And it's like, it just creates that culture where it's like, how far can I push this right instead of like, how holy yeah can I be?
00:13:23
Speaker
So you are no longer in the twoby two by twos. So can you share with us a little of like your testimony of how you came out?
Leaving the 2x2 Church
00:13:31
Speaker
Yeah. um So i I do want to say I'm fourth generation.
00:13:36
Speaker
So that's a big fourth generation on both sides of my family. wow um That's a long time to be involved in something. yeah, like um so yeah I was years old, very much in it.
00:13:50
Speaker
I will say I was very much in it in that I didn't consider leaving it. Um, but at the same time, i definitely lived a double life. Um, my parents were, thank goodness, not strict. So I was able to wear the skirt and dress to meetings and then wear jeans to school, okay you know, and, um they even let us start going to a, um, youth group when we were in high school, which was huge. You know, yeah that's very against the rules. So wow they were, um Yeah, they they bent the rules and I think that was a huge blessing to us that they did.
00:14:25
Speaker
um i do think it was confusing as well and it, you know, led to a lot of like what is good and what is bad and what do we believe? Right, yeah. You know, just everything kind of feeling like we were living a double life.
00:14:40
Speaker
um But I was 17 years old and i asked to be baptized. And um being baptized, that's usually at a convention. So we were at Carsonville Convention here in Michigan.
00:14:52
Speaker
And asked to be baptized. They said I could. And I went and found a long skirt because I didn't have one with me. And that was a requirement. I didn't know that. But they said, you need to find a long skirt. So got a long skirt and um went to bed that night my parents' camper. Woke up the next morning to Knox on the door of my grandparents' camper.
00:15:14
Speaker
And there were workers at the door. um so I, you know, put my skirt on, put my hair back cause that was required and went outside and sat in a row with them. And think I was very thankful. My dad walked up just as we were sitting down.
00:15:30
Speaker
um Or else it would have just been me and them. He, I mean, I think it was God's God stepping in to have him be there as well. So he came up, he sat down with us and they said that I could not be baptized. They said,
00:15:45
Speaker
You have too much makeup in your cupboards at home. You have a TV in your room and you ski too much. I was on the ski team and I missed a few gospel meetings for ski practice. Okay. So. How dare you tell. I was not regretful of that, but. So how did they know this information?
00:16:02
Speaker
Well, so they stayed with us in our houses. I see. So that's, you know, there's, yeah, there was obviously some snooping going on. We always closed the door to our bedrooms and, My mom was very protective. She didn't, this was before all of the CSA stuff, but whenever they came over, they slept in the basement. I left my room in the basement and slept upstairs. Smart.
00:16:24
Speaker
And, you know, she didn't know. So, um they told me that, you know, I couldn't be baptized and I was devastated. I felt that they were right.
00:16:37
Speaker
honestly, I went back in the camper and I was just crying and I thought they're right. You know, I, I shouldn't be baptized. Um, it wasn't for the reasons they said, I didn't feel like those were legitimate reasons, even at the time, but I did feel like, i don't know why I'm being baptized. I don't have any reason to be baptized. And, you know, it was easy to, um,
00:17:04
Speaker
rationalized in my head that I shouldn't be. Okay, so after that, um we went to the meeting the meetings that day and it was devastating. I remember sitting through the testimonies, which are just people talking about, you know, what they whatever they wanted to talk about that day.
00:17:23
Speaker
um And one little boy stood up and he said, I just was baptized today and was just saying how thankful he was to be baptized. And he was probably eight or nine. And I ran out of the convention shed.
00:17:36
Speaker
crying, not to be dramatic, but it felt, it felt like a slap in the face to be like, he's good enough and I'm not, you know? Um, that was the last meeting I ever went to.
00:17:47
Speaker
So we left there, we went home. I could tell things had changed with my parents and there was a lot of hush talking. And what I remember most after that is my dad walking around with his Bible everywhere.
00:18:02
Speaker
he So when you're in when we were in it, at least, we only read our Bibles like Saturday night to get words to say for Sunday morning. um We didn't read them regularly. So him walking down with around with his Bible everywhere was very shocking. It was like, what is what is he doing?
00:18:20
Speaker
And he was trying to figure out if what they were saying was true. well And he got very, very angry. very very quick. you know he He read his whole Bible um at that time and He kept going to meetings and he told, he kept, and he, uh, his testimony changed over time as he was talking because he realized they're not, this isn't right, you know? Um, so not long after workers came to our house and they'd said, you need to stop, you need to stop going.
00:18:56
Speaker
They told you to stop. I wasn't going. My mom had kept us at home. Um, she kept my, my siblings and our at home, but they said to my dad, you need to stop going. um I think he was just creating waves.
00:19:08
Speaker
Yeah. And they, they weren't in the meetings when he was creating waves, but obviously that got back to them. Wow. know, what's so beautiful to me about that is that with his King James Version Bible, Like the Lord still spoke to him and gave him this discernment and gave him this wisdom to be able to stand up to something that was not true. And I think sometimes when you're in a context like where it's KJV only and that's one of the rules, we can forget that like God can still speak through his word and that he did that for your dad. right So that's just incredible. Like I just think that's so beautiful. Yeah.
00:19:48
Speaker
I do too. And after reading that Bible for many years, you know, to finally to get something else out of it. Yeah. To hear it in a new light, even while it's being abused. Right. It's amazing. Right.
00:19:59
Speaker
Yeah. So your dad is told he can't come. Right. So now the whole family that
00:20:06
Speaker
it So, um yeah, we were all out at that point. And, for me, it was just relief. It was just relief that we didn't have to do this anymore.
00:20:17
Speaker
And, um for my parents, it was really hard. And I didn't know that at the time, but they lost everything. You know, they lost their whole, their whole community. I still had school. i still had, you know, a ski team. I, I had these groups and,
00:20:32
Speaker
I had my youth group that we had been kind of illegally going to. But my parents didn't have anything. So that was really, really hard for them. Um, and would your grandparents still have been in? Yes. Okay. Yes. And it was hard for them too. They did stay in.
00:20:49
Speaker
um they had a, my dad's parents had a very hard time with it because the head worker, he was the overseer in Michigan at the time, he stayed with them a lot and he was the one who made the call that we couldn't go anymore. Really? So that was really hard for them because he was, right. He stayed with them, you know, they kind of pick families they stay with more than others and, um, they felt really close to him. So,
00:21:12
Speaker
That was difficult. Um, so for six months we did meetings in our house. So that's how, how deep this like legalism, I don't know, aspect of it goes is that we believe that was still the only way we believed that doing these like meetings in our home was still the only way to close to God, right you know? And, um we still were very much, we didn't know any, any different about, um, Christianity.
00:21:39
Speaker
but we still were very much in the mindset that like we were trying to be good enough and we were trying to, Jesus is not, um, for two by two. So he's, he's somebody that you're aspiring to be like. And so we were still, you know, just working to like try to be good enough, uh, just like Jesus and be sinless. And, um it was really, really scary to think about going to another church.
00:22:07
Speaker
Yeah. um so Senior Sunday came when which is when they give Bibles to all of the seniors that are going to this youth group that we had been a part of.
00:22:18
Speaker
And i asked my parents, I said, would you guys want to. Can we go, you know, can we go to this Senior Sunday? And they were very, very against it. They were, you know, I just remember them being like, no way.
00:22:34
Speaker
But Sunday rolled around and i decided I was going to go. i was 18, you know, and I'm like, I'm going to go get my Bible. They're giving me a new Bible. I'm going to go get it. Your rebellious streak is going to go get that Bible. and I walked out into the kitchen and my mom had jeans on. She was dressed and she had jeans on.
00:22:56
Speaker
And she's like, we're coming. Wow. And her wearing jeans was, i mean, I just, I still like can picture her so vividly being in the kitchen with her jeans.
00:23:07
Speaker
Wow. Oh my goodness. That shows such a shift that she's, you know, saying like, this is. a breaking point, like a shift is happening. right If I'm going to go and see you and get given a Bible, I'm going all the way.
00:23:21
Speaker
I'm not wearing a skirt while I do it. So yeah, we we all went to church and they kept going to that church. We went to church every Sunday. i mean, they did not miss a Sunday.
00:23:35
Speaker
wow yeah We have a little friend joining us for the second part of this interview. Okay, Jill, so they they start... going every Sunday yep to church. And then how does that, how does this transition into your adulthood? Right.
00:23:51
Speaker
So then I left for college and i feel like I didn't fully, um, I didn't fully recognize at that point how hurt I was, but I was really, really hurt.
Angelica's Personal Journey and Reflections
00:24:03
Speaker
And I still felt not good enough. I still felt, you know, um, like I was working. And so I kind of started rebelling a bit doing the whole like parties and guys and just kind of trying to find my way, i guess.
00:24:17
Speaker
Um, thankfully I met my husband really soon after that, which, um, you know, is, is it a blessing, but also I wish we would have met in different circumstances. sure um but we met right as soon as we got to college and um soon after that we started going to a um a home uh like bible study small group okay which was extremely triggering for me that is so interesting like so for so many christians it'd be like a small group right whatever like but for you it is such a specific trigger
00:24:53
Speaker
And I think that for those who are listening, just to remember, like, there will be specific things because of your experience with legalism that you might be surprised that you're triggered by. And that you get to, you know, like, did you have safe people that you could explain that to? Like, Dane. Yes. At the time, like, why this setting was so uncomfortable.
00:25:13
Speaker
I don't think at the time i even was able to recognize that. I think it it took me a while to recognize... um how scary that was. Thankfully, it was a really, really good group of Bible-believing Christians. a year after that, I got baptized.
00:25:35
Speaker
And so that felt monumental. um Right before I got baptized, I talked to our pastor's wife, and I said, and we were on a walk, and I said, i really want to be baptized, but what do I have to do?
00:25:49
Speaker
And she just stopped walking and she looked at me and she said, do you believe that Jesus died for you? And I said, yeah. And she said, that's all you have to do. That's just and not so powerful. It was so, so freeing that I, you know, I didn't have to be sinless. I didn't have to like clean everything up.
00:26:12
Speaker
And that's what I felt like I had to do. You know, I felt like you have to be perfect to be baptized. And I knew I wasn't, you know, and,
00:26:22
Speaker
So I got baptized and I remember coming out of the water and feeling like I'm a new person, but I'm also a sinner and that's okay. Yeah. You know, yeah living in God's grace every single day. Yeah.
00:26:34
Speaker
Um, That's beautiful. yeah It's amazing too because like baptism represents the washing of regeneration. So like if you were perfect, you literally wouldn't even need to be baptized, saved and baptized, right? like It's like, why would you be baptized? Because it represents Christ washing away your sins and and giving you a new life in Christ, which is something you walk out the rest of your life. right So it's so beautiful to hear like just the difference between how the gospel was presented in the first part of your life and how the gospel actually is in a second. Yes.
00:27:08
Speaker
Which is amazing. Yeah. So, okay. I know you could share so much more about like your personal story. I wanted to ask you specifically When you kind of talked a little bit about this, but like when you're in that environment, like how did you realize that something was off or something was wrong? Like at points in your childhood or your teen years when you were sitting in meetings, did you ever have like that? I just don't agree with that or I don't believe that and have like a wrestling of any kind.
00:27:40
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. A big thing was just how sad it was. There wasn't any hope or joy. and they always talked about how there was. um But there wasn't.
00:27:53
Speaker
And you could tell that. I mean, anyone listening to a meeting could tell that people cry all the time um in their testimonies every Sunday, you know, every Wednesday, every convention. People are just crying because they're not good enough.
00:28:06
Speaker
you know, every ah very common way to end your testimony is, I just want to do better in the coming days. that's a very That's kind of what we all said at the end. I just want to do better. and I think even as a child and, you know, adolescent, I realized like, this is not a happy place. and you know, you read about the joy God brings and i did not feel that. Yeah.
00:28:30
Speaker
Yeah. Wow. That I think is so true for all legalistic environments. You know, i went, I used to go to rallies with some friends of mine who were Independent Fundamental Baptist.
00:28:41
Speaker
I had never seen, um like a rally where like the pastor like screams at you. And yells and gets like red in the face. I had never seen that because I grew up in environments where pastors would just like teach. Right.
00:28:52
Speaker
And i was first of all i was shocked. But then I saw like the response of the people around me was like they loved it. They were super excited. But I also i just remember sitting there wondering, like, why are you so angry?
00:29:05
Speaker
Like, why are you so angry? And why are these teens excited that you're angry? Right? But it's because it was there. So such a strong culture around it. All their friends are there, all their community that it's almost like they couldn't see.
00:29:20
Speaker
you just are almost like forced to accept that that was true and normal because everyone else is. No one else seems to think anything's wrong. And so the little Pentecostal coming into the like Baptist environment, I was just like,
00:29:34
Speaker
Stunned. Of course, if it had been the reverse, that would have been crazy too. so So there's some red flags and you mentioned too, just like, the whole baptism episode of of how them saying like these things have disqualified you being that shift for you. Is there anything you'd say to someone who's like, I'm in it, whether they're in the two by twos or they were or a different group, like things that they could look for that would be red flags in general.
00:30:07
Speaker
I think if, um, I think a common thing is, um, said by two by twos is I'm not worthy. And, um I think if you're feeling that way, you know, if you're feeling just like constantly, like I'm not good enough, I am not.
00:30:24
Speaker
And I think that's really complicated because we aren't worthy, you know, of God's love, but yet he calls us our children, yeah you know? And I think, um, that part gets left out a lot of the time that we are loved by him and we are his children. yeah um The end of the story. Yes. And just how much joy there is there in that relationship and how that's not a relationship of fear. That's, you know,
00:30:52
Speaker
ae That's a relationship based out of love for God. um And there, I mean, that's complicated too, because there is fear of God. Right. But not fear of not following the rules and not being good enough. Yeah.
00:31:06
Speaker
I heard one scholar say that the fear of the Lord is being in awe of his affection for us. And that to me was like, oh, that makes sense. Because then when you look to him, you're not thinking like, oh, God hates me. God's angry at me. God's judging me.
00:31:22
Speaker
It's like, I am overwhelmed by his greatness, but I'm overwhelmed because I know he loves me. right Versus I'm overwhelmed with fear that he could even look at me. Right. You know, like it's the difference of like him looking at you with affection versus him looking at you with judgment and like wanting to cringe and hide and cover with sick leaves. Yes. Like a thing versus...
00:31:41
Speaker
Like, I know he's a father who loves me. And I, and yeah, that's just really a hard, a hard shift, I think. Yeah. So you kind of came out of this, you're in this healthy environment, church environment.
00:31:54
Speaker
You had to kind of deconstruct or sift apart what was true from what was false. Can you kind of describe how you did that? How did you deconstruct that and then reconstruct to where you are today?
00:32:07
Speaker
I feel like it took time and it took time to even recognize what I needed to do. um I didn't realize how much hurt was there and it took until we actually rented a house from a member of the two by twos.
Rebuilding Faith and Theology
00:32:23
Speaker
My grandpa is one of my grand late grandpa's best friends and he's so sweet and we loved him we love him so much. But he was in the two by twos and we were actually surrounded on both sides by two by two people when we lived in this house for a few years.
00:32:39
Speaker
And I think that was kind of the jolting moment for me of I feel really angry. And i loved them, but I also felt a lot of anger. And I remember Dane telling me, you um he said, it's okay to be angry, but you need to be angry at the right write things. and um I was feeling angry at these people for falling for terrible theology.
00:33:02
Speaker
and You know, that sounds bad, but that's what I was feeling. and And he told me there's a spiritual realm that is at work here, and that is what you need to be angry at. Yeah.
00:33:13
Speaker
And that was that was a huge shift in my brain that, you know, these people are being deceived, and it's not. them I'm angry at. Yeah. That is so good. Cause I think a lot of people, i was just talking to a woman yesterday who, who said like, I'm out, I'm on the other side, but my whole family is still back there.
00:33:32
Speaker
And I feel lost and hopeless and angry because, because like, what do I do? Like, how do I get them? I want them out. Like I want to Moses them out, right you know, like deliver them. Yes. But I think it's so important to remember, like if God got you out, he can get them out. Yes.
00:33:49
Speaker
And like he delivered you, he will deliver them. Like, but if like Dane said, like it's a spiritual battle first. And so prayer is spiritual war. And I think we forget, like, we feel like if I just tell them the thing, tell them the truth, they'll get it and they'll come out.
00:34:05
Speaker
And it's like, I mean, what would you say when you were like 15, if someone had been like, Jill, the truth is the gospel is this, like, would you have listened to what they were saying at that point? No. And we were, i had really good friends that were, you know, Christians and we prayed together. I remember praying with them in their kitchen and I thought, wow, I don't, we don't pray like this at home. You know, this is, this is something to like stand around praying, but yet,
00:34:34
Speaker
I didn't think that was the right way. yeah you know, because that was so deeply engrossed in me that we were the only way. Right. Yeah. so and And that's so often what's being told to people in these environments. Any kind of legalism is like, well, we're the only way.
00:34:50
Speaker
I can't listen to any other way. Right. Cause that would threaten my safety. Um, and then especially at the risk of losing your community, this happens to a lot of people leaving Jehovah's witness Mormon theology too. It's like they leave, they lose everything. Yes. Everybody. And in some cases, even their money is tied up with the church and that's, it's just really, really devastating.
00:35:12
Speaker
So when you're, when you're rebuilding, so as you left, you guys started going to church as a family You had the small group in college that was really helping. Was there something that helped you the most in rebuilding after experience?
00:35:27
Speaker
I think once I, so once we were in that cabin and surrounded by ex- or by current two by twos, um, studying theology. That was what I started diving into because i realized, do I even know what I believe now?
00:35:42
Speaker
Do I even, am I believing what I believe now in the same way that I did back then kind of blindly following traditional Christian beliefs, you know? And so I started diving into theology books and studying hard topics like the Trinity, you know, that we were never taught.
00:36:00
Speaker
and um, trying to figure out for myself what I actually believed, um, and asking hard questions, you know, um, having hard conversations like with Dane, with my husband about, um, I don't know, I don't know what I feel about this. And, you know, it's hard to say that about some topics. It's hard to say, i don't know if I trust God with this.
00:36:21
Speaker
Yeah. Um, But I feel like that's so important get to that place. Yeah. So not being afraid to wrestle with topics and, and read, like press into something that maybe scares you a little bit. Yes.
00:36:34
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other part was just surrounding. Myself with Christian community that could really, you know, that was super supportive. Yeah. Yeah. Were you able to tell those people like, I'm i'm so struggling with this. I'm not sure believe this yet. Yeah. Yeah. Asking questions. Oh, for sure.
00:36:53
Speaker
And that's a huge difference. You know, when you're in a community with Christians and you're able to be honest about that kind of stuff, it feels I mean, night and day compared to yeah to what we were in before where you aren't allowed to ask any questions. Right. And I know for some people coming out of legalism because you're told you can't think for yourself, you must be told what to think.
00:37:13
Speaker
And it has to be this. It can actually be really easy to swing from one framework to another. And this often happens with conservative and progressive legalism where people will come out of super fundamentalist environments And they'll actually swing all the way over and adopt an entirely new framework.
00:37:30
Speaker
Just, you know, hook, line and sinker because this person sounds like they're saying the right things. So I'm just going to adopt all of that without questioning and sifting. And I think that's the most time consuming part is like, okay, what are the core central doctrines of Christianity?
00:37:48
Speaker
And okay but you know, I can imagine coming out and looking And going like, why does this church believe in speaking in tongues and this one believes that like Jesus is in the communion? Like, it's just all overwhelming. It is overwhelming. Yes.
00:38:02
Speaker
Yeah. So what would you say to someone who is in that situation of like sifting? Would you say concentrate on the core first? Or was there something specifically that you concentrated on when you were in the middle of all that sifting? Yeah.
00:38:15
Speaker
I think I concentrated on my relationship with God the most, that like personal relationship, because I hadn't had that for, you know, all of my time growing up. yeah It was just this complete like rules based following, you know, yeah um and doing things just because I felt like I had to. And so focusing on my relationship with God, you know, I remember so many drives just like sitting and talking to God yeah and feeling so free that I could just talk to God.
00:38:46
Speaker
and And being able to do that out of my own love for him and not because I wanted somebody to see me talking to God. Right, right. Performing for for other people. yeah That's beautiful. But yeah, also and definitely focusing on on core doctrines. And I think you could definitely get caught up. I didn't because I... i aye I didn't think enough about it, I think, um when I first got out. But I think that could be very overwhelming to try to figure out all of these, you know, issues that don't matter as much as the core issues. Right.
00:39:21
Speaker
Like if you're struggling with like, why are people speaking in tongues, but you still don't have a personal relationship with God. Like back it up, focus on your relationship with Jesus, like your prayer life with him, reading the Bible for yourself.
00:39:34
Speaker
And then you'll get to that point where you can handle talking about those kinds of things. But if that core isn't strong, then those things are just more confusing over time.
00:39:45
Speaker
So on the other side of this, you know, I've known that you had come out of the two-byt two by twos from being your friend. And I know that you now have shared your story on social media and with other people who are leaving the movement.
Sharing Testimony and Conclusion
00:40:00
Speaker
It's really nerve wracking to share your own testimony. Yeah. It's really, and so I'm really grateful that you're here and doing this. um It's really nerve wracking to share your testimony, especially when you know that some people won't receive it well, or if you still have family members in it and they can feel attacked by like what you're sharing.
00:40:20
Speaker
I know that can be hard and I can't speak to the legalism part, but I can speak to like sharing my testimony of leaving pornography. It's like, I felt so much shame over who might see it. Right. And like, well, what are they going to think? And finally I had to just be like, the truth is more important than what they think of me. Did you encounter any of that struggle with starting to talk about what happened to you?
00:40:40
Speaker
Yes. I mean, even to the point where, so um, I'll back up a little bit to when I found out that we were the two-by two by twos and And i stumbled across this memoir by somebody who had been in the group.
00:40:55
Speaker
It's called Called to Christ by Elizabeth Coleman's Super Good memoir. And she mentioned in the back of the book some Facebook groups. And so this was back when we had first moved to that cabin, being surrounded by 2x2s. And I sitting on the bed and I Googled X2x2 in Facebook. Or I looked it up in there and I found a group of x two by two And um there were people in the group.
00:41:20
Speaker
I hesitated for days to even join the group because you know it's a private group so people can't see that I joined it, but it was just terrifying to so to join an ex two by two group. yeah um do you think partially because it like put a name to you?
00:41:36
Speaker
Yes, for sure. yeah Yes. For so long, you don't you don't have a name. So having a name felt kind of terrifying. Like, oh, I'm a part of this group. Okay. um But also, like, are people going to be, like, are other people in the group that are going to see me? And are they going to, what are they going to think?
00:41:52
Speaker
Even though they're in the X group and probably X's as well. um But I joined that group and seeing other people's stories made me realize and that was the point where I realized like, wow, I think I have stuff unpack here.
00:42:07
Speaker
i think, I think I have to think about my past a little bit more than I have. Um, that group now has 5.6 thousand members. Yeah. So that hearing other people's testimonies actually showed you where God wanted to heal you. Yes.
00:42:24
Speaker
Which is like the power of the, of sharing our testimonies with other people. It's like, I'm not alone right in what I've gone through. Right. So, I would say, um you know, from four years ago when I joined that group or five years ago, um I've come a long way. And like you said, and just not being afraid of people, because i do have I've all of my extended family still in it.
00:42:47
Speaker
I have family that owns convention grounds, you know, like we are deep in this. And. on both sides, you know? um i have friends, I have close friends that are in it. And i think my biggest fear in talking about it, you know, whether it's online or in person is that I don't want them to think that I'm bashing them. I don't want, I just don't want it to come across at all. Like i um don't respect them because I do. And I've been there and I know I wasn't there as an adult.
00:43:16
Speaker
And I think that's a little bit different. I think if, this all hadn't happened with my baptism, I might still be in it, you know, and i didn't have to make those hard decisions as an adult with a family.
00:43:27
Speaker
who So wow I feel like that, you know, I respect, I respect those people that are still in it. Um, just as I respect any other person. And I just really hope that God brings them out too.
00:43:40
Speaker
Yeah. Well, Joel, thank you so much for sharing this and sharing your story because there's something that we we have said and you've heard me say it, but I always say like on the other side, you set other people free because once you've gone through it and you are sharing your story, other people have they're experiencing your story the way you experienced those other people. yeah And it gives them a chance to to sit with it and go, oh, like maybe the gospel isn't this heavy thing that I have to perform for and I have to work for and I have to see if I'm worthy.
00:44:18
Speaker
Maybe the gospel is actually something that is freedom and goodness. So thank you so much for joining us today. I appreciate you. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining me for today's episode and this interview. I hope it was a blessing to you. And if so, please leave a comment on our YouTube channel or leave a review on iTunes or Spotify. helps other people find both this episode and this show.
00:44:41
Speaker
And if you would like to join us in our new freedom from legalism course, We would love to have you as a part of our online community. This takes place in the Circle Communities app or website.
00:44:53
Speaker
The app is both Android and iPhone friendly. And inside the course, you're going to find seven modules walking you through how to discern legalism, how to find freedom from legalism, how to understand what scripture says about the gospel and the Christian life, how to heal from legalism and spiritual abuse when it crosses over with these environments, and then how to share your story.
00:45:17
Speaker
I hope this course is a blessing to you. And if you are like Jill, a member, former member of the 2x2 church and interested in taking this course, we have a special discount code for you.
00:45:30
Speaker
And we would love to give that to you. You can email Felicia at FeliciaMasonheimer.com and we can give you that discount code so that you can grab the course at a discount. We want to serve your community as you are navigating um this time of finding a new church home and rebuilding your faith after legalism.
00:45:50
Speaker
Thank you for listening and I'll see you next time on Verity Podcast.