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#29.b - Zach "It's Aliiiive" Oakes
40 Plays8 years ago
Our theory was that one day, with enough swearing, we could reach a zen like understanding with our guests.
Here's the proof.
Watch the heck out 2018.
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Transcript
Introduction & Episode Overview
00:00:15
Speaker
Welcome to Death and Episode 29, Part 2. In order to keep last week's episode below everybody's daily allowance of expletives, we decided to split it into two. Here's the second part of our conversation with Zach Oakes. I think we are slightly above the time, unless we have any other topics that we want to talk about. Yeah, but the time can go fucking self as well. We've got Zach on the show. I mean, you know, this is... We can't stop. We've spent a lot and we're not letting him go, you know.
00:00:43
Speaker
We all just hit pause, take a toilet break and we come back and keep on rocking.
Live Coding: Twitch & Notch
00:00:50
Speaker
One of the things that we can do is like, you know, like the Twitch sort of thing, you know, we just keep clicking links on the screen and then talking. And there are people watching people playing video games. So maybe it's not watching. Yeah. That's what I've been seeing. Um, it, uh, the first time I saw it was when notch, uh, a lot of coding of a game for, uh, Ludum dare.
00:01:17
Speaker
Yeah, the gaming competition. And of course he had a massive following. And I was watching, I was like, this is actually kind of interesting. And part of it is because he's just like me, he's a terrible coder, like his code is awful.
00:01:35
Speaker
But he's just constantly- So he's just like you in a sense that you have, I don't know, a gazillion dollars? Well, not yet, but soon, you know. Eventually. I'll get there. But like, his code is awful, but he's like constantly moving around and he's making, even with Java, he was coding with Java, and he's making use of code reloading, the very somewhat primitive trying that Java has, and he's using it constantly. And it's just like fascinating watching him do this.
00:02:03
Speaker
So I don't know if I could be that interesting, but the actual concept finally made sense to me after I watched that. I was like, I could just watch you code and not do anything, but drink beer. This is awesome. Exactly. Well, the funny thing is that all the conferences these days are all about live coding, aren't they? You know, everyone's live coding, live coding, live coding. Yeah, yeah. And if you're, well, why go to a conference? Just do it online, you know? You're kind of, yeah, you're giving us a clue here.
00:02:33
Speaker
I've been watching some coding things as well, I mean it's really nice to see how people use their tools and how they're thinking and sometimes some people speak when they're writing code because they know that there is some audience and there are some guys who are in their own mind and then just typing the code and you know it's really fascinating and they're like why did this person do that you know you keep looking at it and
00:02:56
Speaker
And there are things that you can learn.
Advent of Code & Educational Value
00:02:58
Speaker
Actually, we were talking about this advent of code last time. Maybe we can get some of the advent of code people, the closure guides, to do some of this live coding, like a Twitch stream or something. Because that would be quite nice. I've been following some of their repositories, and there are really some excellent coding coming out of there. And you can learn a lot of stuff from these guys. But it would be nice to see how they're doing it.
00:03:20
Speaker
I've never actually used Advent of Code. I keep hearing people talk about it. Why is this so popular? What is about it? I think it's just like a series of challenges, like over 20 days leading up to Christmas and it's like people in different languages try to solve it with, you know, with Go and Python or Closure or C. Oh, it's multi-language. Yeah, I mean, it's just a series of programming puzzles and you can pick them up and then do it in whatever they want. I see. Then put it in your own...
00:03:49
Speaker
There are a couple of things like that these days. Of course, advent of code and then there is some coding game or something online where you make exercises by building up a game.
00:04:00
Speaker
So it could be an idea for your tech actually, because if you want to do all this kind of stuff online with low friction. Sure.
Exercism.io & Multilingual Challenges
00:04:10
Speaker
Exactly. I think one thing I really think you should take a look at is there is something called exorcism.io. I'm not sure if you have heard about the website.
00:04:21
Speaker
Okay, it's called exorcism and then they have programming problems for every language. So you can like closure has 60 or something and then you they have a command line tool that brings in the next problem and then you do it and then push it and then other people are looking at your code and commenting. I see. So integrating into that kind of thing could be super awesome because then I don't need to.
00:04:41
Speaker
My next thing that I would love to do is get into more esoteric ideas. I've been doing all these beginner tools with Clojure and I feel like I've basically exhausted my pool of ideas here. It's like I'm on my seventh Clojure IDE and that's something you've got to stop. That's true.
00:05:08
Speaker
But I'm still fascinated with this whole idea of how do you make programming more accessible?
Accessibility in Programming: Scratch & Eve Inspiration
00:05:15
Speaker
I think my next thing is going to be something a bit higher level. You won't be coding in Clojure. I'm sure I'll make it in Clojure. But I want to draw from things like Scratch, which is a block-based programming tool. And then you've got some crazy stuff like Eve. Yeah, that's what I want. And I think I have my own ideas for that space. And that's what I want to do next. I don't think I can do anything as sophisticated as Eve.
00:05:44
Speaker
But I have my own interesting ideas and also, I think they're taking too long. It's been like three years. It just feels like a yak shave to an extent because of that. But also, I have some my own ideas for how I want to tackle that problem. So I want to do that next. And like I said, you're probably not going to be coding enclosure per se.
00:06:10
Speaker
But it's going to be in the same space as some of my older stuff, except maybe even a higher level and probably another waste of time. But it'll be fun anyway. Have you seen, I don't know if you remember, there was a guy called Tommy Hall that did some of these Asha drawings and some of these other bits and pieces.
00:06:36
Speaker
Is it Sam Aaron the overtime guy you know he did the sonic pie stuff and they're all about like teaching kids how to code and what you need to do is you need to code it like you know at a different level it needs to be like not all these kind of like low level programming language type thing it needs to be.
00:06:55
Speaker
something logic based, you know, something that just, you know, brings blocks together. That's what the playgrounds are doing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then eventually, eventually, you can kind of surface the underlying assembly type language if you if you need it, you know. Yeah, like, I don't think everybody is going to be a programmer. It will always be a specialized skill. But it's kind of like the same way that you could do simple things on your car without being a mechanic.
00:07:26
Speaker
And I think we're going to get to the point where people can at least do simple things with an ultra simple scripting system.
Excel: A Tool for All
00:07:36
Speaker
And maybe that will save us from the AI dystopia that is going to take over.
00:07:42
Speaker
If we let the computers do everything then we're fucked. We got to let average people. Something's for us. But I always think about if you think, I mean it's kind of a weird thing, but you go to corporate environments and they're all writing Excel.
00:08:01
Speaker
They're all writing Excel. Every fucker is writing Excel. Everyone in that building doesn't matter what building you're pointing at. That building is full of people writing Excel. What the hell is that all about? That's a crap system. Yeah, it's full of people who are like me. They don't care about their tools. They just want to use what's ever in front of them. They want to analyze their data. They want to get the results.
00:08:25
Speaker
No, it makes sense though. Excel is like, in a way, it is a very well-made programming system that also happens to be really accessible. I mean, the Eve guys talk about it all the time. So, yeah, I mean, I think that's one window into what it could look like.
00:08:48
Speaker
I don't know. This is one of those things I want to try to do. I think it shouldn't be Excel, but I think my point is that Excel is what people are using now for solving their problems, a bit like people used, I don't know.
00:09:05
Speaker
like, like, uh, like five bar gates back in, you know, back in the sort of middle ages, you know, but we've got, we've got better stuff than that now. We've already got better stuff than that, but it does feel a bit like an abacus or a sort of crappy tool XL in the modern age, but people are still using it, you know, because they haven't got access to this stuff. Can you translate that analogy into American? Cause I don't understand it.
00:09:30
Speaker
You don't know what an abacus is. No, bad guess? Abacus. An abacus. Oh, abacus. I know what that is. Okay, good, good. Okay, so I think we
00:09:52
Speaker
We looked into the future, so now we all know that Ray hates Excel. I never use Excel. What did Excel do to you? I just finished my MBA, so I'm not an Excel king.
00:10:09
Speaker
But I don't want to put it on my CV yet. I want to be a social media influencer. So I watched that guy. I don't know if there was a YouTube video about a Japanese guy that does painting in Excel. I don't know if you saw that. Yeah. But that's like Excel has got everything. Everything is in Excel. You know, it's like it's a whole world. It has a flight simulator. I'm not sure if it is still there or not. I remember back in the Excel 95 or something.
00:10:32
Speaker
You just type in some magical thing and then press tab and then it gets into your flight simulator and you're like awesome. You just press escape when your boss is around. Yeah, when I worked in these corporations people use it for planning, they use it for... It's not... Number crunching is the least thing it's used for. It's the most boring task. Everything else it's used for, you know. Anyway, bye-bye. Okay. That's the future. It proves that it's one of those tools.
Excel vs JavaScript: Ubiquity & Limitations
00:10:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's a general purpose too, actually. It's got everything in there. Exactly. But it's awful. It's truly awful. Yeah. It's bad at everything. What are we talking about? But it's accessible. Yeah, Excel. Excel is on every desktop because of my- I thought you said you never used Excel and now you're like- No, I don't use it. No, I have used it. I have used it. Oh, okay, okay. I don't use it anymore because, you know, I'm not an animal.
00:11:22
Speaker
I used numbers instead. Anyway, sorry. It's a tool that's got everything in it. But all of those things that are inside of it are all bad. They're all kind of like worst in class.
00:11:42
Speaker
But they're accessible. Because they're on everyone's desktop, because Windows is everywhere, it is everywhere. And you can't remove Windows because everyone wants Excel now. It's kind of like that cuckoo type thing. That's the wrong analogy. But somehow it's kind of like got into the world.
00:12:00
Speaker
And it's used by everybody. And even though it's awful, no one can get rid of it because, ah. I mean, it's the same story as JavaScript. Yeah, yeah. Or the JVM. Pretty much everything. Yeah, everything works that way. I'll be saying that we should have a closure instance that runs on top of Excel, because I think that could be a nice runtime. Compile down to Excel macros. Wow. Excel macros.
00:12:26
Speaker
How do I get that idea out of my head? Disturbing me. We probably should stop at that point though, I think. You can already pick the file extension. It's going to be xljs and then you'll be all right. Oh no.
00:12:42
Speaker
Okay, I think before we actually push you on the edge and then make you start on that project, we'd like to stop it there.
Supporting Creators: Zach Oakes' Patreon
00:12:52
Speaker
Did we miss anything? Any famous last words? Did we miss anything, yeah. Yeah, in the projects.
00:12:58
Speaker
I mean, you missed a lot of shit. You guys did a terrible job. That means you just have to come back, Zach, you know. Exactly. Now, this was fun. I want to be a regular. Can I be a regular? You know how, like, Ronnie Dainter would always show up on Johnny Carson? He would just like show up, not even invited. He would just like appear.
00:13:22
Speaker
You did it like a hundred times. I just want to do that. Why don't you join us as a co-host, Zach, for another show. Yeah. We'll just invite someone else along. You can come along as a third person or a fourth person. I can third wheel as good as anybody. Let's do that. Let's do that. This is on air. It's a promise. We'll have you on. Hell yeah. Perfect. It's time for one of us to retire.
00:13:55
Speaker
This is our exit strategy, you know? Because the show started with the feedback, right? Fuck you guys, okay. This is all we wanted to hear, finally. Now we can pass the bait into someone else who can hear the fuck you guys from someone else. I think that's like passing the test, isn't it? Like the cheering test. As soon as you can say, fuck you guys, you're in, you know? That means we are popular.
00:14:23
Speaker
That means we are popular. That's pretty much it. But before we step on to the next one, well, not next one, but the end of the show, I hope.
00:14:37
Speaker
I just want to mention that you have Patreon as well, right? It's patreon.com slash sekow oaks in the reverse. That's right. All I'm trying to do is pay off that damn server that I'm running my coders.net on and I almost got there.
00:15:00
Speaker
Yeah. So so people who are listening go there and then support him so he can keep running the server. And of course, I mean, he's going to come back and then join us again and then again and again and again and show up on the show. And then and then maybe you can do a small segment with Bob Ross sort of shit in the middle. Yeah. That'll be amazing. The happy guy. Making some some notch money. Then then it won't matter until then.
00:15:28
Speaker
Until then, I'm, yeah. You know how rich we are from, from defense. So, you know, you're welcome to the club. We'll be like super rich people. We need to get some sponsors. That's what you needed. No, we don't, we don't want to. No, you want to keep it totally anti-capitalist. Yes.
00:15:51
Speaker
We're like money, but we don't like people who... We got the Patreon. We got the Patreons. I mean, they're paying more, I don't know, probably 60% of all of our costs now. So that's pretty good. We're happy with that. It doesn't cost that much to do this stuff. Most of it's our time, you know? Yeah, right on. So, you know, we want money for our full-time job. Don't worry about that, you know?
00:16:17
Speaker
We want like nine to five sponsors for Shirei. But for this stuff, it's okay. Exactly. You know, we love our Patreons. The people who are sponsoring this show, I mean, you know, it's just, it's so amazing to me that the people that are doing this, I mean, you know, we, you know, we've given a bit of our time to the Closure community, but they're giving our money back and I think it's all good, you know? Yeah, right. Yeah, absolutely.
00:16:44
Speaker
So we will never take sponsors. I mean, because we would like to insult everybody on the show and everyone. So, you know, that means basically practically everyone else. So apart from us. And now we are offended as well. You know, we're getting insults as well. So we are part of the club.
Philosophy: No Sponsors, Creative Freedom
00:17:00
Speaker
Exactly. So it's all a happy coincidence now. That is a good point. I don't think you guys could hold sponsors even if you wanted to. They'd just be like, hightail out of there the minute they actually listen to you.
00:17:14
Speaker
I mean, what we like to have is like probably like, you know, the zenith of this podcast will be if Cognica starts to sponsor in our podcast. Awesome. This episode of DeafN is sponsored by Cognica. So maybe you should try to hear that one a bit, you know, other other podcasts. I think what we should also do, we should come up with a code of misconduct. Okay.
00:17:40
Speaker
Yes, we have to at least defend many people find that one. We have to say fuck you at least once in the show. You know, we have to earn our explicit tag, you know, it has to happen.
00:17:51
Speaker
That's true. It's brilliant. All right. Okay. Anyway, we should stop it. Yeah. Yes. I think I think we should stop before other people also show up and then tell us to fuck you guys. Stop it now. Again, a big, big thank you for, for all the patrons who are, who are supporting us. We have almost six people already supporting us. Almost six.
00:18:18
Speaker
Almost six. I'm not sure how many are going to stay with the whole Patreon fucked up thing and everything. Let's get up to double figures. No, the Patreon have backed down, haven't they? Yeah, yeah. So hopefully we'll get to the double figures. And of course, while you're at it, don't forget to look at Zach Ochs Patreon as well.
00:18:38
Speaker
So he can pay off his server and then spend rest of the money on sitting with us and then Joining us in the in the upcoming episodes. So we'll we'll figure that out how to work it out so that's it from us for episode number 29 with Zach oaks who is Bob Ross of closure and cowboy of closure sure I think you can cover the cowboy of closure for his making Victor of closure
00:19:05
Speaker
Yeah, so Zach I mean thanks a lot for joining us and it's been super fun to have you on the show and talking about Dynadox and all the projects that you're doing and especially making closure accessible to the beginners putting your time in.
Acknowledgments & Gratitude
00:19:20
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you. I had a good time as well. I hope to come back again sometime. Thank you. You will, for sure. Yes, of course. Should we say thank you to Pizzeri, the music man whose music is probably playing us out now, with the help of Mr. Wouter Dolat, who is doing the editing.
00:19:42
Speaker
Yep. That's a thank you. Yeah. By the way, what you said to us that, oh, you should you should have a can thing at the end at the beginning of all this kind of shit. But I said, no, forget it. Yeah. You know, we want to we want to make it completely like ridiculous all the time. Always annoying, you know. So sorry, Zach, you were going to say something. Shout out to the editor, you know, the unsung hero of the podcast.
00:20:04
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. It's a thankless job. It's hard. I've edited stuff. We don't thank it. We don't thank it. We hate him. I didn't expect you would. We never did.
00:20:17
Speaker
And we still don't know why he's doing this for us. Maybe it's some sort of a sadomasochistic thing in Belgium. I don't know. I have no idea. Yeah. Should I stop recording now? Yeah, let's do that. Yeah. Yes. Bye.
00:20:59
Speaker
you