Transcript
Speaker: Hello everybody! Can vegans really disrupt the capitalist game with vegan businesses that raise the profile of animal rights? What a big profound question! Well I'm Anthony and my friend Richard and I are going to be talking about that in this episode of Vegan Talk.
Speaker: So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butt is used for! Protein. Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida.
Speaker: Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry. True education. younger generation are getting to know how brutal these practices are. That leaves a lot of pizza delivery companies in problems with things.
Speaker: What is this? What kind of movie is this? It's comedy gold. Any form of social...
Speaker: As long as you don't get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
Speaker: I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. Hello, I'm Richard. Welcome everyone that's listening to this episode of Vegan Talk. And thank you for being here. Indeed, indeed, thank you for being here. Whether this is episode 1 for you or episode Yes, this is episode If you have listened to every single one of those 300 podcasts, well done. Give yourself a tick. There's actually been about 305 because sometimes we re-release an episode we've we've done before. But anyway, new episodes. This is number 300. So thank you everyone for being with us. You might have noticed this one is called Vegan Talk. That it means it's something that is a bit more timeless. So we do have our vegan week shows where we talk about the week's news, but this one is one where we're talking about something that could apply any time of day or any year or anything like that. We released one yesterday too. we We're just crowbarring an extra one in to celebrate our 300th episode. And if you like the idea of vegan philosophical conversations or film reviews, book reviews, ah chatting, sometimes we'll chat about an article we've seen on social media or something like that. They're all timeless bits and they're in your podcast feed. So just go back and you'll be able to hear them.
Speaker: There. Richard, let's just take 60 seconds. Come on. we recorded episode one together. did. We recorded episode two and three and like the first dozen or so. Three years ago?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah. but By the time this comes out, it will be coming up to three years. September 2023. Goodness me. goodness me You can't have enough of a good thing.
Speaker: You know, so go back and listen to those episodes. Yeah, they're pretty good, actually. Like I will say, like a lot of um a lot of podcasts, they'll say, oh, goodness, have you listened back to the first few? It was really scratchy recording equipment and we were still getting our format. I mean, the format we have tweaked, but it's still more or less the same.
Speaker: And like you say, I think they're worth listening to. Like there's some decent stuff back there. Yeah. And I guess it's like everything, you know, just adapt. We started in a format and things evolve because you need to adapt to the situation. The same as our topic today, I guess. Oh, absolutely. Yes. Today, as we said, right at the very top of the show, we are talking about business, specifically vegans working in the world of business, perhaps starting their own business and trying to disrupt the non-vegan business world and
Speaker: um maybe a separate topic, the the non-capitalist world, although that's that's a bit harder, perhaps. And that's how we met, isn't it, Richard? When when we were running our own businesses.
Speaker: Indeed. And that must have been 2019? Yes, I think so. Yeah, I think it was early 2019. It was very fortuitous, really. I was staying...
Speaker: overnight in Cardiff. And I thought, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll i'll go for a run this morning and I'll finish my run at a vegan cafe or or something like that if I possibly can. So I fired up Happy Cow and I saw about five miles from where I was staying there was a vegan cafe. I think I could have gone a different direction and gone to a different establishment. Maybe it was a veggie one. I can't quite remember, but it wasn't just, ah Oh, that's the only one.
Speaker: Um, but there was this, this vegan cafe that had this brilliant blue smoothie bowl on the happy cow page. And I was like, I'm running to that cafe and I'm getting that smoothie bowl. And, and when I arrived, It wasn't on the menu anymore. It was a special, but but you guys made it for me. and and that was the first of many visits. What ah what a serendipitous day. It was glorious. I know.
Speaker: i If I'm honest, I do not remember the specific of that day in terms of, you know, because it's a long time ago and we've met so many times after that. um But I do remember one of the things that came to my mind is you are not alone.
Speaker: You meet the people that are within your sort of circumstances and that's a breath of fresh air. And i remember the first time I i went to um your cafe, the excitement like, we're going to see someone else's cafe and we know them and oh, I want to try everything and talk to them and how you do this. and Yeah.
Speaker: So sort of being able just to reach out to someone that's so, so encouraging, so necessary. You don't feel like you're on your own. ah it's it's massive it's absolutely massive isn't it and it's it's interesting because like you know I think it's fair enough to say like we both had business partners that we were running our cafes with but nonetheless just you're you're in that I mean call it ah a a terrarium or a glass dome or or or whatever. It's a sealed system, isn't it, that you're working in. And it can it can feel a bit cabin fever or it can feel a bit like, gosh, this is these are the same four walls that we see every day. and And so just, yeah, knowing that there are other people out there doing it, Just emotionally, it felt like what you were saying just then was like an emotional response. But then there's all the practical bits too, isn't there? And, you know, we shared a ah lot of practice. We were best part of a hundred miles apart, I think, geographically, yeah um but doing basically the same thing. a startup...
Speaker: vegan cafe in areas where there was not one already. Neither of us started our vegan cafes in Brighton or Bristol, did we? You know, London or... Yeah, exactly. So that's, that was part of the mission, I think, for both of us, wasn't it? But, and and so sharing, sharing those experiences from a a practical sense and, and kind of other bits of business now, yeah, just so, so invaluable to, to have that, isn't it? Goodness. Yeah. I'd forgotten that, to be honest, how important that is. Oh, gosh, yeah. I remember that very clearly. Like, even if ah we didn't reach out every day to you, we knew that in the face of some difficulty, some doubt, there's always the option of let me call my friend.
Speaker: And even beyond a friend, in terms of we share a common mission, we share... in our own way, you know, same mission, same goals, same aspirations in the same type of businesses. Obviously, that have been different, you know, the menu is is different. If not, it would be sort of a franchise, you know. But yeah ah no, that that's so important. It puts your mind to rest.
Speaker: Yeah, it does. And something else that I just thought when you were talking there about the like the excitement of of going to the other person's business is that actually my experience of running a vegan food business was that you know we were trying to kind of create the sort of food establishment that we wanted to go to ourselves.
Speaker: But that didn't mean that we created that for ourselves and that we we couldn't experience that. We couldn't be customers in our own cafe because you're thinking, oh God, I'm eating the stock. Or, you know, you you don't look at it in the same way. You can't enjoy it in the same way. And that sounds a bit ungrateful, but...
Speaker: was my experience you you couldn't enjoy it so actually you were still without that kind of vegan cafe in your own town so you had to drive but back then you probably didn't have to drive 100 miles down the road ah there were closer places but to go somewhere and be like oh brilliant this is this is perhaps what some of my customers are experiencing enjoying i get to i get to have that excitement too that's that's nice thing isn't it Yeah, probably have enjoyed your cafe more than yourself.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Oh, 100% and vice versa, I'm sure. So the the question we're looking at today then is, is it possible for vegans in the name of animal rights, in the name of the vegan movement to to start businesses, to lead businesses, to run businesses in a way that that furthers the cause of From your experience, Richard, and we perhaps we'll both answer this individually, do you think that that is possible to do in some shape or form?
Speaker: yeah The short answer is yes, but I need to explain what I mean. And usually this and least there's probably more, but two of the ways you start a business is because you find the need in the market or you find the problem in the market, or even maybe you just ignored it and you just go ahead because it's what you want to do and after you go back to a job. But anyway...
Speaker: um If you can solve a problem or you find a need in the market, then you are providing that for the customers. Now, we do we do something beyond that.
Speaker: it's in In my case, and probably it's not the right approach, but you're not trying to solve a problem for people. You're trying to solve a problem for the animals. So your customer are the animals, and that creates a big problem because you are you are trying to fulfill a need.
Speaker: but by doing that But in order to be able to do that, you need to transform how people perceive what you do. So it's a double sort of barrier you have there.
Speaker: You might think, okay, there's a need for a hairdresser. Not in where I live, there's too many of them. but um So I'll open a barber shop or a hairdresser, problem solved. What you're trying to do is like, listen, as a species, we need to change the way but we behave. We eat, we clothe ourselves, we, you name it.
Speaker: But we need to give people the option to be able to do that. But of course, you're not solving a need from the customer. I mean, I've never found customers saying, you should start a vegan business.
Speaker: yeah Are you vegan? no No. So it is difficult in that way because you are solving a problem for the animals, trying to change the perception from consumers and showing them that you are a valid option, and that takes a lot of effort. I don't know if you think different.
Speaker: No, I really resonate with what you said there in that as well as well. When you were speaking, I was thinking, well, yes, we are trying to solve a problem for the animals, but actually, you know, there are vegans out there who would really like in our example, and we're not just talking about vegan cafes, but that's that's been mine and Richard's ah business experience um in terms of having and starting our own business.
Speaker: there are vegans in those communities that would really like a ah vegan cafe. However, my experience was that the vast majority of our customers were not vegan.
Speaker: Same here. and And that's not to say that the vast majority of customers, oh, I'm going to do some sort of double, triple negative here. Let me just start again. There were a lot of folk who would come in as people who aren't vegan,
Speaker: because they're coming in with a vegan friend. There might be a vegan friend who brings in three non-vegan friends. Most customers aren't vegan there. However, arguably none of them would have come in if it weren't for the vegan. Then you have people who are curious, people who are interested. However, the bottom line is if you are just relying on exclusively vegans to serve your business, you probably need a really niche concept that has a price point that that those vegans are willing to pay. And I don't think that's a cafe. That's not that's not a low price point thing. you know We've um both been in touch with like vegan accounting firms and things like that. There you have
Speaker: a much higher price point for your product. So it's it's possible to have a business that can run just serving vegans. However, like it's, it's not enough to just think, oh, we'll be able to just have vegans tick things off and we'll be fine. mean, it depends. It depends on your circumstance. If, if you were,
Speaker: on a high street or doing a food truck or something like that and had very low rent, very low overheads, a very low bar for success, maybe you could get away with just serving vegans. But in the world of business, you you probably need to appeal to a much broader set of customers. And so, like you say, Rich, it's about persuading people that there is a problem that they need to help solve.
Speaker: but but but But most customers in a capitalist free market don't operate like that, do they? They're like, oh, like you say, I need a barber, I'll go to a barber. You have to be a very disruptive business to to meet someone at that problem, oh, I need my haircut and say, well, don't go to a barber. What you need is this laser Android drone that comes into your house and that completely flips things. it's some It's quite a complicated thing really, isn't it, being a a vegan business owner?
Speaker: It is complicated. it is also the case that if you do not have business experience prior to this, yeah it's I mean, there are more resources nowadays of people that have started vegan businesses, how they've marketed things, how they've done things. But you're a bit on your own, aren't you? You start, you have no blueprint.
Speaker: um you might have a very different background. I mean, in my case, I didn't have a cafe background. I haven't spent the last 20 years working in a cafe and making my way from um kitchen porter to manager. it was just like, okay, we'll serve coffee, food. We need to do it well, quick, fast and good.
Speaker: And it needs to be profitable because we need to keep going on with the mission. and And that was my experience too. And it's fair to say both of our businesses had hundreds, thousands of customers through the door, really, really busy periods. Like it's not that it's impossible to do without prior experience, is it? You you know, and that's that's a really wonderful, exciting thing is learning things as you go. making mistakes, being like, oh, wow, turns out I can do social media. Oh, wow, it turns out I know how to well create a new recipe for such and such. Like you can learn so much on the job and the the margins for error, that the the the more margin for error there can be, the better because you'll you'll just be making mistakes every day. So there needs to be enough space for you to make those and not go out of business next week, you know? Yeah, you've touched on something very important and it's mindset. We are to use nowadays of what's your career path and what's your progression path and whether you see yourself in one year and maybe you need to take this test and talk to your manager and see how they can promote you and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: Now, that's all very good, but if you really want to start a business, that goes out the wall out the window. sorry you You're no longer dependent or relying on anyone to approve what you do.
Speaker: You need to take ownership. You are the one dealing with things, and you Because of the fact that you don't need approval, you need to be good at finding solutions because you are the one in charge. You can't fire yourself and you can't quit the job.
Speaker: Or you can't quit it in the same way that you would quit a regular job. You just don't give notice. I mean, you don't go to a customer and say, I've just decided I'm quitting. i'll I'll give myself my resignation and, you know, close.
Speaker: And I think that's very important, that mindset, because it gets gets gets you into problem solving in a way that the job doesn't. Yeah, yeah, ah absolutely. And it's it's one of those things, if it was some just something that you started doing when you were 18 and maybe, let's say, you live in a situation where if it all goes wrong, your your parents or someone can bail you out, you're not doing it for animal rights reasons. It's just, you know, you you've started your own business selling toothpastes or paper clips or events management or or whatever it is, then the stakes, whilst they're still high, I think the kind of being entrepreneurial and and and running one's own business, like it's some it's not a comfortable existence.
Speaker: But the situation I just described, I would say is a damn sight more comfortable than if you have saved up some money in your twenties and thirties, and then you're saying, right, we're gonna invest that in a ah a business concept to improve the outcomes for animals, to raise the profile of veganism, our incomes on the line here, our mortgages on the line here, all of those things, like then the stakes become so, so high That's an intense pressure cooker you're putting yourself into, isn't it?
Speaker: Oh gosh, yes. You're worried. I mean, it sounds all very good. Like I'm worried about the mission and we need to transform the world to a vegan place. While at the same time time, you need to say, I still need to be profitable. If I have employees, I need to pay them. I need to pay my suppliers. I need to pay the rent or the lease. ah I need to live myself. you know i and it's It's a tough situation, but on the other hand, it's very fulfilling.
Speaker: it The sense of fulfillment that you get out of it, it's nothing compared to any job I've ever had. Yeah. Yeah, i would 100% agree. I'm incredibly glad that it's something I've put a portion of my life to.
Speaker: And I don't know if it's i don't know if it's possible to to do it in a way that is safe emotionally, ah financially, ah perhaps if...
Speaker: like I say, you you happen to be doing so in a context where you've got, you know, several houses that you don't live in that you've got as collateral or you've got, you know, rich great grandparent has recently died or or what have you, if you've, if you've got that safety net and,
Speaker: then maybe it's possible to to do it in a way where you're not having to insert yourself into that business seven days a week, 52 weeks a year. And there isn't that that big risk of, goodness me, if this goes wrong, like we're going to need to yeah we're going to need to file for bankruptcy or flee the country or something like that. But like I don't know many people who who are in that situation and you know life's for living and and that's part of the thrill isn't it and course yeah getting outside your comfort zone and if if there are listeners that have ever thought about or are thinking about starting a business one of the things and you might agree or not but one of the things i found is you are never ready You will never have all the answers before you get started. It's just one day you think, I've been researching for the last three months or three weeks or two years.
Speaker: And ah can't just wait until everything aligns. i At some point, I need to walk rather than just gather information. And from that moment, things flow.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. In terms of making a difference, Rich, I'd i'd be interested in hearing your opinion on the scale that one aims for with a business in that I think it's fair to say that you and i we aimed at a similar scale in that we both opened bricks and mortar, physical premises, and like you know like a traditional cafe that you walk into. It's there seven days a week or however many days you choose to open. And that's the model we were trying to insert ourselves into.
Speaker: But that's not the scale that... every vegan startup business goes for. I mean, you know, where we have high profile celebrity investors, I'm thinking of say Lewis Hamilton and Neatberg. I mean, that's probably quite an outdated reference now, because I think they've they've gone up and then they've come down again. But, you know, opening 10 premises at once would be another scale um ah or another scale might be to have a a food truck or to turn up at a street market or to have a bake at home kitchen.
Speaker: If the purpose is to improve outcomes for animals and to raise the profile of the vegan movement, obviously you've got to feel comfortable with things personally. There's there's no point saying to somebody who's really nervous about it and never had any experience or resources, well, unless you open 10 premises, you're not doing any any use for the animals. But...
Speaker: Did you have a hunch as to what scale things needed to be to feel worthwhile for the animals? That's a very tough question, you know. um My first first thought is I need to be able to transform the neighbourhood I live in so the more people there adopt a vegan lifestyle or at least...
Speaker: are familiar with what veganism is gravitate towards veganism. In my wildest dreams, I wanted to have 50 outlets, you know, 50 and open in different places. But i I always thought, like, if I've only changed the life of 10 people, 5 people, 100 people, and even if I close, they start eating more plant-based foods,
Speaker: or they go vegan, or they might even open a business of their own. It's worth it because you can't put the price on how your life is worth in terms of how much change you've created. Rephrasing that, would you ever say, oh if I don't change a thousand people, it's not worth opening that business? Mm-hmm.
Speaker: You know, it's difficult. Yeah. Yeah. Everything is relative, isn't it? And I think each of us will have like our own gut instinct as to what we achieve. And i commend anyone, anyone.
Speaker: working within their comfort zone or pushing themselves um to to new possibilities for the sake of others, whether it's whether it's animals or or whether it's a different social justice cause. you know What a commendable thing to do with the time and resources you have on this planet.
Speaker: What a fantastic thing to do. And I loved, I loved meeting people like yourself who were taking that step of like, do you know what?
Speaker: We're going to really get in there and get in and amongst it. We're not going to take the relative safety of yourself. you know, a food truck or ah ah ah a market stall and what have you. And those do great good. Don't get me wrong, but like really getting in there, my goodness. And that was my instinct. And it kind of, I mean, I still have that bias, you know, of kind of like, oh, wow, brilliant. You guys. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Keep, you know, keep going. If if people are really doing that. And that's the
Speaker: That's the model and the path that I took. And there was a ah lot of collateral damage and in terms of close personal relationships and financially, you know, we we properly we properly rose and then crashed through the floor. You know, I've never had so much money and I've never had so little money. And and that's frightening, you know, it's so, so frightening.
Speaker: And it was all it was all to try and better outcomes for animals. you know When you do things like this, lots of people have opinions of you and and that's being in the public eye, isn't it? that's I mean, that's another that's another thing to watch out for, I guess, in that every man and his dog feels like they can give their opinion on things. Yeah. you know i i had a few people say that i was doing it for my ego or any anything like that absolutely not like i paid myself last like if i put myself in social media things it was to promote the business it wasn't you know to to wax my ego and and all of that is is frightening stuff and it's difficult and it's risky stuff and we do it for the animals and it's it's a real hard balance isn't it
Speaker: Yes, and I would say it's a good thing that people have opinions about you, you or me, I mean. yeah um If you don't, means you're not doing anything, you're not affecting anyone, you know. i <unk> It's good that you create that and and you can look back in life and say, well, at least I did that, I tried it. Did I succeed? No.
Speaker: um or not in the scale I wanted to, yeah but I did it. and Yes, everyone has an idea of how you should be pricing, what you should be serving, why you're vegan a cafe and why your cafe is great and why your cafe is so bad. And, you know, the other cafe is so much better than yours.
Speaker: And you always polite people. um You know, i've I have a mantra for myself that... I don't kind of mind what people think about me. That doesn't change the opinion I have of over them.
Speaker: you know, it's their choice to think whatever they want about me. That doesn't change my motivation, what I want to do. I'll get feedback. Don't get me wrong. If 10 people say that um smoothie you're selling is not good.
Speaker: And that's okay. It's their opinion. I don't care. No, it doesn't work that way. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. um yeah But I think one of the things I wanted to say before you go ahead is that we we are obviously talking about vegan cafes or vegan sort of food businesses. And um probably it's one of the things that us vegans, when we go vegan, is one of the things we go towards where we can make the biggest impact. And we always kind of gravitate towards us food. And there's other people doing amazing things outside
Speaker: food but um this was our experience yeah yeah absolutely and um with that goal of improving outcomes for animals and making the vegan movement more attractive and a vegan lifestyle more attainable there's many many different ways of doing that can we touch on just for a moment the idea of how we conduct ourselves or or what game we play in the sense of my opinion of, I don't know, capitalism, for example, now is very different to my opinion of capitalism when I was playing the capitalist game of starting a business and and running a business. And that was probably quite necessary because I think otherwise I would have been tearing my head apart. You know, I would...
Speaker: been feeling like a I was acting contrary to to my beliefs and what have you. But to what extent do you think, maybe just speak for yourself, Rich, like that you should just play the game as it exists already. So just just act like any other the business, but you're vegan.
Speaker: Or is it important to us to try and do things in a way that is more ethical and more considerate that's maybe challenging the very concept of free market capitalism or or something else?
Speaker: Or is that too risky? Does that dilute things? Are we trying to do too much at once if we're trying to play several games at once effectively? Should we just be focusing on the vegan game? That's a very interesting question. So I think in my experience, my own experience, we were not only vegan, we were vegan organic and palm oil free. And we realized that we made the niche of the niche that was so niche that it even made it difficult to find people that wanted all those things. um
Speaker: It's a difficult one. difficult one i mean, One, whether we like it or not, we live in a capitalist society. That is great in terms of if you have an idea, you can put it out there. You do not need to wait for anyone to approve what you need to do.
Speaker: The bad thing is that moral... I'm not saying other ways of doing economy arm more or politics are more moral. But what I mean is... If you are not profitable, it doesn't really matter how the good you're making to society. That's only filtered by the lenses of how much money you're making.
Speaker: That's the only lens, right? And up to a certain point, you can think, well, if I'm making a lot of money with a vegan business, therefore, and I am doing a big impact. So you do have... you know, the upside of thinking, yes. Now, when you try to do, in my experience, as I said, too many things at once, you are probably getting diluted because you are hoping that people will embrace every single change you're making and people are moved by different things. Like many vegans are interested in eating vegan, but it might not be the case that they're interested eating
Speaker: Generally they are, but they might not be interesting in eating organic or they might not be interesting and interested in other things. So I've come to learn that probably we need different businesses with different focus to be able to cater to everyone's needs. I don't know if that answers your question. Yeah, no, no I, I think so. And I think,
Speaker: Really, i mean I often say when we're talking about different kinds of vegan activism, we can have very strong opinions on what works and what should be the right way of doing things. Really, we're all, to use to use an interesting phrase, we're all pissing in the dark. We have no idea. We don't know what works. We don't know what improves things for animals really, because we've not actually got that much data. There are some things that we can say, that kind of activism really seems to turn everybody off. I've never met anyone who's who's been swayed by that or what have you. There are some black and white things. but it's pretty gray. And therefore I kind of think the most important thing is that people feel empowered to do what feels right for them.
Speaker: And like I say, I, you know, seven, eight years ago, i just thought, well, I'm just going to play this game and I'm just going to do it as well as I can. and I'm going to do it in a vegan way. And that's all that matters.
Speaker: Now with the with the perspective of hindsight, I'm sort of thinking, well, so for context, we took over two premises from non-vegan businesses. One was a delicatessen and a few years later, a non-vegan restaurant that that we bought. And we did much better than both of those prior businesses, both of which exploited animals. So you can look at that in one way and you can say, this is brilliant, it's putting veganism on the map and that animal exploitation is no longer happening in those premises. If we hadn't taken over, non-vegan businesses would have filled those spaces and animal exploitation would have continued. And I stand by all of those things now.
Speaker: And because we were more successful businesses than both of those prior businesses, we were creating way more waste than either of those businesses ever were. And I'm not saying that waste is equitable to an animal's life. You know, I would still say yeah the animal's life trumps that, but it's not clear cut.
Speaker: And for some folk, for some folk, they might question certain business paths or or decisions within their business. Or like you said at the outset, you said, do you know what?
Speaker: we think this needs to be organic. We think this needs to be palm oil free. They felt like priorities. And then as as you go, things can change or you can say, well, if we can't do it like this, then we won't. I mean, this there's folk who live their lives as vegans who start non-vegan businesses and do their very best to promote the vegan stuff within that.
Speaker: But they will say this business wouldn't work if it was 100% vegan. Sometimes I would disagree with that statement, but I mean, certainly historically that would be the case. 15 years ago in in the city that I was running a cafe in,
Speaker: i'm not I'm not sure that we could have done it 100% vegan, so should we not do it at all? Or it's you kind of just have to listen to what feels right and and listen to feedback, I guess. and yeah Yeah. It's not straightforward. It's not straightforward. And um I was thinking also...
Speaker: When you said about the impact we've had on all this, I would say when you go to Tesco, when you go to Aldi and all these places, you have a big range of vegan food now compared to what you would have seen 10 years ago. yeah That's not because Aldi decided, you know what, or Tesco or whoever, I'm going to do this.
Speaker: There's many entrepreneurs that took the risk to start making different sort of food, plant-based food, burgers, whatever. And these companies, these supermarkets saw that they had a there was a market share, that they were profitable. They might have copied you know and do their own brand. But this is the result of the effort that came before us. So I think whatever effort we can put, we don't know what we'll see in the future. You you never know.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And um yeah, anyone that chooses to to use their energies to to improve outcomes for people with with some or lots of degree of risk, then wow.
Speaker: what ah what a thing to do with your time. Rich, we need to start winding up in a moment, but I just wonder before we go if between us we've got any just real quick tips, do's, don'ts, if there are listeners thinking I'd be interested in starting a business or maybe we've got listeners who know somebody that is on the verge of doing so or who has just started to. You don't have to learn all your mistakes firsthand. You can listen to other people who've made them or who have avoided them. Like what do's or don'ts would you give folk?
Speaker: Well, I would do a one minute do's. And if anyone wants to listen, I can do a three hour podcast on don'ts. But you can do encyclopedias of of both. Let's let's not be too self-deprecating. 30 seconds for each. Okay. Go on. Do surround yourself from people that have done it or that can help you guide you. big, but start small and always be realistic on where you are, what you can afford. Try to spend as little money as possible because you'll never know when you need to replace her a machine
Speaker: All the expenses you you'll have are higher than what you expect. And just work hard because and one way or another there is a reward. But just surround by surround yourself by people that know have done it in the past if you can't.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What would I say? Yeah, I would echo, it's not exactly how you said it, but the smaller your overheads are, the better, the the the less you have to do to break even and to keep going, that the better. You know, if you've got a business plan that's like, well, if this this this, this, this, and this all work, then we'll be fine.
Speaker: That sounds a bit too conditional to me. Like, keep it real simple. Keep it real low bar for success. I think as many exit plans as you have as possible. So like I'm i'm a director of it in in a completely different business now, ah one that I didn't start myself. And we're always talking about exit plans. What's the exit plan? What's the exit plan? Because things change, unexpected stuff happens.
Speaker: i I think just expect the unexpected, like the ah life the life that... I live post running a ah business is a lovely one. I'm very happy with it. And I've had those five years of of learning and rich experience, learning how to run a business and all of the the joy and and change that made. And it's completely different.
Speaker: And I think not everyone can afford business. whether that's a financial affordance or emotional or personal circumstances, not everyone can afford to go into something with the condition that your life could be completely different at the end of this, for better, for worse, for just different, let's not put a value judgment on just different. And yeah, I think that's a ah thing that can happen. um And if that sounds really scary, i think all of the things that me and Rich have just said probably don't apply
Speaker: to going to your local market once a month and doing a store with vegan food on, you know what I mean? That's probably, probably a lot safer and that can make a huge difference, especially if you can keep doing that for the next 20 years.
Speaker: You know, like doing a big high impact thing that lasts for two, three, four, five years. That's wonderful. And doing something small scale that keeps going for 20 years, for 30 years. Wow.
Speaker: What a big impact that could have. And one thing that I think we've not touched upon, and I think it's very important before you start, get some advice on the legal form you should adopt when you start a business. Should you be a sole trader?
Speaker: with the upside of certain things and the downside of maybe that you are personally liable for many things. Should you be a company which might be more expensive because you need the accountancy or more sort of proper ah accounts for the business but you are not liable in the same way. So do the research before you start the business on what sort of um legal form you should adopt.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. the the The more things you can know beforehand really help. And I always just took the attitude of if someone told me I'd done something I shouldn't done or you've actually broken the law there or blah, blah, blah. just go, I'm terribly sorry. I'm really sorry. That was not my intention. Let me put that right now with a smile.
Speaker: And it it generally worked. So... ah But there there are probably some mistakes you don't want to make. So yeah, goodness me, Richard, you and I could talk about this for a very long time. i know, i know. it's It's been very joyous to do so. Thank you so much. nostalgic, gosh.
Speaker: we need Yeah, I know. Goodness, goodness. Enough time has passed that we can go back there. Yeah. Yeah. um Listeners, we always want to hear your opinions too. I expect every one of you listening has encountered a vegan business, um even if it's not one of your own. So I'm sure this is a subject that lots of people have got lots to say about. And we'd be really keen to hear it, even if you're saying...
Speaker: Anthony and Richard were talking a load of old nonsense. Here's what you should actually do. That would be super too. Richard, people are going to need our email address though. What is it? Enoughofthefalafelatgmail.com Indeed it is. And yeah, we always read your emails. We always respond to them eventually. And we have mailbag shows where we talk about them.
Speaker: unless you tell us not to. But very often people send in stuff that is very thought-provoking and is the guise of a whole other episode. If you want to help us out, we've got a Ko-Fi page, not to line our pockets. This isn't a business sideline. It is just to get us nicer equipment that makes the show sound better. So it's ah for the benefit of everyone for the link in the show notes for that. There's other stuff people can do to help out though, Richard, isn't there?
Speaker: That's right. You can also rate us or leave a review on your podcast player. ah Subscribe to the show, which tells your podcast player that we create a great show, as well as giving you alerts when new episodes drop.
Speaker: And you can tell people about the show, you know, share it and um just get them to give the give it a go. Indeed. What's the worst that could happen? Thanks everyone for listening to this episode. Our next episode, episode 301, will be coming out on Monday. It'll be Vegan Talk. That's where we talk about the news. It'll be myself, Mark and Shane.
Speaker: Anyway, that's enough of the falafel for this episode. Thanks to Anthony for your contributions. Thank everyone of you out there for listening. We really appreciate you.
Speaker: And I've been Richard and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
Speaker: This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster.
Speaker: We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com. And sometimes if you're lucky at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr. Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
Speaker: This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
Speaker: around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
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