Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 3: Une sortie du capitalisme par la terre
134 Plays22 days ago
Dans cet épisode, je reçois Tanguy Martin. Agronome de formation, Tanguy est aussi un militant engagé de longue date sur des questions cruciales comme l’accaparement des terres, l’agroécologie et l’alimentation durable, à différentes échelles du local à l’européen. Il est impliqué dans plusieurs collectifs, dont Ingénieur·e·s sans frontières et Reprise de terres, et travaille depuis une quinzaine d’années avec Terre de Liens, une organisation qui accompagne l’accès au foncier agricole.
Notre échange s’appuie notamment sur son essai "Cultiver les communs. Une sortie du capitalisme par la terre". Dans ce livre, Tanguy revient sur le rôle fondamental que l’appropriation de la terre a joué dans la naissance du capitalisme et sur les effets destructeurs que cette logique continue de produire sur les sociétés, les écosystèmes et les droits humains. En contrepoint, il explore la piste politique des communs, et en particulier ce que cela implique de penser la terre non plus comme une propriété, mais comme un commun à instituer collectivement.
👋 Let's connect!
https://tierraylibertadpodcast.org/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tierraylibertad_podcast/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/tierra-y-libertad-podcast/
✊Soutenez-nous: https://fr.tipeee.com/tierra-y-libertad-podcast
📝 Notes de l’épisode:
Collectif pour une sécurité sociale de l'alimentation
Mouvement des Sans Terre (MST)
“Reprendre la terre aux machines”, l'Atelier Paysan:
“De la démocratie dans nos assiettes – Pour une sécurité sociale de l’alimentation”, de Tanguy Martin et Sarah Cohen
“Quotidien politique", de Geneviève Pruvost
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Tierra Libertad Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to this new episode of Tierra Libertad.
00:00:20
Speaker
technology in agriculture and the dangers the capitalism.
Guest Introduction: Tanguy Martin
00:00:33
Speaker
In this episode, I receive Tanguy Martin. An agronome of training, Tanguy is also a local to European.
Exploration of Land Appropriation and Capitalism
00:00:50
Speaker
Our exchange is mainly focused on his essay, Cultiver the Commun, a release of capitalism by the land. In this book, Tanguy comes back to the fundamental role that the appropriation of the earth has played in the birth of capitalism and on the effects destructive that this logic continues to produce on societies, ecosystems and human rights.
00:01:09
Speaker
In counterpoint, he explores the and
00:01:21
Speaker
Hello Tanguy, thank you for accepting this invitation and welcome to the podcast Tierra Libertad. Hello, you for the invitation. So for starting, could you tell us more about you and your journey?
00:01:33
Speaker
I'm Tanguy Martin, work and I'm working on the agriculture, democracy, justice in agriculture and alimentation.
00:01:49
Speaker
France. pria pre de manard beevval mil don de ferranes pass ah not tamon they callif se saint frontier is the ter one call ah collective pool security so elderly mo as merci togepo said prisonestion don pore or viv du sogege rure par don livre couere anti tule tv le comma sortted with capitalism butla And of
00:02:19
Speaker
umfeziana andtre androla In a
00:02:38
Speaker
It's to the the
00:02:59
Speaker
And so the peasants who, in the regime of the feudal, the problem is a guaranteed access to the land and their subsistence. They will not have access to their subsistence, they will have to sell their work force continue to nourish themselves.
00:03:16
Speaker
And so in creation capitalism passes by a rise land, luc said please doter directly liisan cruure ah or you unique investors So in
00:03:39
Speaker
to be able to launch capitalist exploitation by the land taking into the colonial space. The capitalism
00:03:55
Speaker
So that is really one of the fundamentalists of capitalism. Vast subject, we can talk about it for hours. So to France, field?
00:04:14
Speaker
not mon for procy Yes. ah as you beie do thepartia goodant and die m ccpi to more van m six said do dear likepato be don doesn in take you and yeahvi de division to incorporat letter some system fiel shitish almon de raisono composisance pireu lumoage sitimu po javao butre po jean gen alu that the modern or the capitalist period, because I think not at from the problem. It could be analyzed for a we a little tendency fall into these traverses.
00:04:54
Speaker
There are some inspirations in the medieval period that we can take, but it wasn't better before, far from there. And, actually, there are plenty of things pretty moches that been passed in agriculture,
00:05:09
Speaker
sous la pression du capitalisme au XXe siècle, notamment France. Mais il y a eu aussi des conquêtes sociales, des choses extrêmement intéressantes, et qui se du
00:05:32
Speaker
There is a reform that comes with the
00:05:44
Speaker
A right access to land with a loan fixed by the prefectural law of a modic way, It has a very long time for the proprietor to commit the practices of his locator.
00:06:10
Speaker
because the the
00:06:27
Speaker
it lu So sorecha islet more lesultareuc says it the say that it's a quasi-proprietary. ah when i said jeu lufi du travalater deandro these desire bi re ah blarinoic ah or uppiar and That the example, an example of reform very interesting and
00:06:56
Speaker
which has perhaps vocation to need to.
00:07:16
Speaker
um iquifioparttinit trado letter acujily equalka it soundswy between indian and a a Unfortunately, these institutions are rather devoted and instrumentalized with a vision and identifiable of the agriculture and and don't have the right to say anything in this story.
00:08:00
Speaker
We can keep in mind that the XXe siècle in France im needconque sua ah a ahotu or sortto de luqueli beral ah or do we need to
00:08:14
Speaker
Effectivement, the syndicalism agricultural in France a complex question, which I will surely discuss in another episode. Why is regulation of the agricultural only by the market? Is it not adapted to the issues that it is around the market? What it that the idea that the soil is the soil and la la It could be, or could be a the
00:09:02
Speaker
niandra um What does that mean? That would mean that it would be a like
00:09:22
Speaker
son bien peut détruire la chose appropriée, qu'on appelle l'abusus, un droit qui est issu du droit latin.
00:09:33
Speaker
Et donc ça, ça pose tout un tas de questions sur un petit peu le... you didn't yeah doop work ah let remember a works on a planet don't don't getism you don'tudanniuch in ontaldo and i lo rome the to everything is encadrado by the laws and it's not caricatured and simple as But it's really a lot of questions.
00:09:58
Speaker
don And in a capitalist caps telling and remarhi function don deu and with the to give resources in the way of accumulating capital and so to maximize the rentability the investment for making profit.
00:10:14
Speaker
And if we take that, to Allouer la Terre aux usages les plus productifs, au sens productif de profit.
00:10:37
Speaker
de l'espèce humaine, parce que l'usage le plus productif de la Terre aujourd'hui, c'est de faire du logement. Donc fait, si on devait allouer les terres de cette manière-là, en disant qu'on allouait l'allouer à...
00:10:52
Speaker
to what is the most efficient in terms of profit, we would have an immense zone of aviation on the whole France, for example. And so we could not live on the whole earth. So there is and and how we will renew this resource.
00:11:14
Speaker
in addition, there is a need to be able to superimpose different uses on the same surface, on the same place. Because fact, the Earth is what we call It serves to produce food, but it also provides the landscape. It an event recreational space for a walk. It can be a spiritual space for a lot of people.
00:11:37
Speaker
um so so you carbon probablytro mathematics so aqui dulaverity sovakyoerpa faimo nizma ah proju moation menly butisted parme It's a to mean you could Well, the same thing is
00:12:18
Speaker
The anthropology and history are going be able to manage the terms of the land that by the market. And even historically, for example, an economist like Leon Valras, who is one of the pairs of economics classic, who doesn't necessarily be someone who is opposed to the market.
00:12:33
Speaker
They said that the earth is complicated in economy, in addition, it's not a merchandise that is manufactured, so maybe would be the case of the nationalization. And that's the pair of the classic economy that says that. So we can still ask ourselves questions, according to a large pen traditional ideological tradition, that the market is not the right way to manage the earth.
00:12:54
Speaker
Justement, it's what I was asking. Is it the idea of releasing the alimentation of the capitalization of the sphere is necessarily a gauche, or a revolutionized? mean, from there, we can start with big theories all, love it, but...
00:13:10
Speaker
um are little bit of a schematical and we look at what's going on in history and in the world since the capitalism exists, we see that the an it doesn't work in any case.
00:13:36
Speaker
What I know about the is and devalorized.
00:13:56
Speaker
And so even because the agricultural agricultural, the mechanization, the chinesis,
00:14:06
Speaker
Today, farmers, yes, have perhaps physical work less difficult than before, but, despite everything, they always have lot of work. we see that despite the the the free exchange,
00:14:33
Speaker
the likeyro on is that called ybraon the food in the world has not regressed since. And even in France, which is supposed to be a great agricultural power, there are plenty of people, there are about 10% of the population who recoured to the alimentary. There are a number of people, so not people who are under the soil of poverty, who are eating a meal of food for economic problems. So it's not very effective to fight against the food. And in addition, it has a very environmental cost absolutely astronomical. It defies the biodiversity, it participates to the climate, it perturbe the cycles of the water.
00:15:05
Speaker
or really it's a system that doesn't work I think that what we can say about that is that if we study really in a naive and empiric the thing the capitalism in the alimentation think we could do it in a lot of activity but in the alimentation in the agriculture it doesn't work and so I have to say that it's question survival So, after, is it a question of gauche?
00:15:31
Speaker
I have the impression that the right is nihilist and so, I have the impression that, aujourd'hui, it is defended only by people who are being elected. me But, uh, well, it's...
00:15:45
Speaker
The phrase of Marx was that the capitalists will perish in the ice ice ice ice. The question that we have today is that, as far as we are going to go, we will perish with them in the ice ice ice ice. It's not very cool, so it will have to do something quite quickly.
00:16:02
Speaker
<unk> But, is it an idea revolutionary? don't know if it's an idea revolutionary. In for So
00:16:32
Speaker
Thank you Tanguy for this very interesting answer. And going to continue on this question of transition in order to capitalism. Can you tell us what role the state plays or could he play in a communalization the agricultural land?
00:16:48
Speaker
And what are, according to you, the limits of his intervention? and Just before say what I'm going to say, I'm insulating in a and which is
00:17:08
Speaker
au dépassement ou au dépérissement de l'État, en tout cas de l'État au sens moderne
00:17:21
Speaker
Voilà, je m'inscrive pleinement là-dedans. um But at the point of it's very pragmatic. si We see that the options revolutionary at short term, the perspectives of grand soir are not necessarily there.
00:17:38
Speaker
And that the wait or o a c du costre or like condition possibility du go so may also designed to to the intermediate action would be in an an ah jole ram puro marism a ah boston there is the to a battle.
00:18:26
Speaker
ahnita it um dulabata
00:18:44
Speaker
at traver le re with the state as it is today, we can build institutions who are radicals, who are already there, in a post-capitalist society. And the idea on the table is, for example, the social security system,
00:19:07
Speaker
We have to can put to make great radical reforms that are already there and that could survive the of capitalism
00:19:55
Speaker
and So the configuration rapport force, can allow this type of radical reform. So it is necessary to do it.
00:20:05
Speaker
So it is not to
00:20:15
Speaker
But we can still have an ambition before have abolished the Etat. I think that what is...
00:20:28
Speaker
C'est-à-dire d'avoir des choses qui se créent. La sécurité sociale, finalement, elle est instituée par une loi ou des ordements en 45-46. the you know some system tipo sobi ra family a but know as je frankeloppeo robville be jail as security rianttere but vi j later the
00:20:57
Speaker
gfer but in fact, after it capitalism. ah well you see in The is se paraer i and know sortmo if for back what i certainly in this strategy so that the
00:21:22
Speaker
revolutionnaires, proto-revolutionnaires, qui, finalement, favorisent le dépérissement de l'État ou pourraient survivre à l'État.
00:21:40
Speaker
Je pense qu'on a des institutions qui relèvent vraiment ces déjà-là, donc voilà, je... I'll give you little teasing, but we'll come back later. But there are examples agriculture this subject. There's no class IQ.
00:21:51
Speaker
Maybe you could talk a
00:22:04
Speaker
Yeah, well, actually...
00:22:19
Speaker
um see ah luinis material schna more less solo visual perceive eucommunismism ah and that, as it's quite easy to build because Stalin the USSR
00:22:43
Speaker
well telling the your assessor on sotupaullinist and na ne gro cho zavoir have gen while we measure non-communism what else says to more and build mo satam a la yeah onru um even what were the cold cause and the soft cause.
00:23:23
Speaker
in the the of the Soviet bloc. And, for example, think that one of
00:23:45
Speaker
and mon in the Soviet Union and that they did not have at benefit from the capitalization. that it created feeling, and that this feeling was then captured by the extreme-right, which is another problem. But really, there are many to imagine the collectivization of the Earth, which is not the great bond front of Mao, nor the cold cause and the soft cause.
00:24:12
Speaker
and and in Berman it's really to study how it was going to happen in cold cause and the soft cause there were maybe things that weren't as bad as that in these organizations and in plus it evolved to the level of un nivo you storie are The in 17 is the it I to
00:24:50
Speaker
be me ahroilillarois franc booialet terre grico de la lu maant so There's something very interesting with the that production and the entry of France in the capitalism.
00:25:13
Speaker
put that said like have original frances prisonir neutrally umla look in arranging the co previous eerpa you dont say look at c desonquere issu called svila napoleo ninety two hundred are circuitulate yeah ahfin on
00:25:30
Speaker
It's the of it In fact, between 1804 and 1950, agriculture will remain an agriculture um dis vison cat ah ah dis new sun saant leg culture valesttin like equal culture proto-capitalist where farmers produce their own subsistence sell the surplus to the cities.
00:26:06
Speaker
And so there, we will have between 50% and 30% of the active population française who will work the land.
00:26:15
Speaker
but luxessisyre franzeky gi wrotepe on capitalismism the capitalism sit on donny manufacture don justri evenvan tremon don and meva pa remo sitton or don don like get to e and So but France. And it will be until the end of the Second World War.
00:26:31
Speaker
And...
00:26:53
Speaker
we, that yeah yes it's a there is this not
00:27:27
Speaker
And so, the the
00:27:32
Speaker
state decides to make the agricultural capital with the aid of a minority of the farmers. And for the do, it will have to embark this minority the farmers in their demand rights, in their giving power.
00:27:46
Speaker
it's going to be the creation of these institutions.
00:27:58
Speaker
They had touched rampant financier, they were the oil in this system. So it's going to broken the proprietors. to raise their arms and modernize the agriculture, to make the tractors and the chiming in the fields.
00:28:11
Speaker
And for that, it's important to embark on the farmers, because we don't have envie of having revolt of 30% of the active population, it's not at all acceptable in the political world. And it's important to embark on the farmers there.
00:28:24
Speaker
ah a du conva create this institution likeel lano um ah And because street ah sta fer me is any wasant yeah didn wellform so Edgar Pisani is the minister of De Gaulle, even if he is a socialist, be a socialist after the end of his life.
00:28:41
Speaker
And he will be in place ah you know complex So, and lisa fer nux marie devan de ta rico institution coger ri and hospitalit is saniaricco you an re nire dirma tellter is hapa vonduea tellperson is chandria terut troperson ah evos regularly ah lurid lavo the tarigorilu lupri de tago la france so restta asimundic papo uriter of va brazilta um And the second thing is
00:29:24
Speaker
And so, also, for being able to sell a the right of the modern, classic. It is also the accord of the state, it is to suite to an study ah do it of the right to buy by a commission which is the agricultural and the state.
00:29:48
Speaker
It's called the Commission Department of Orientation Agricola. It's not very interesting, but it's just to keep in mind that the allocation of the resources in the is shared between the market for the market,
00:29:59
Speaker
paul levan and institutions who are all over the land, independent of the regulation, so the SAFER and the control of the structures.
00:30:10
Speaker
So we have already there, there are institutions who exist, who exist, who are completely capitalistic, even in a way ah liro du lu in person The
00:30:47
Speaker
The right to access the land by location not to a merchant.
00:31:10
Speaker
and so, of the way counterintuitive, these social conquests are what will allow to and So
00:31:36
Speaker
ahandres sula co de monier So it's not really a fantastic guy the end. You mentioned the
00:32:03
Speaker
And if you
00:32:14
Speaker
Very quickly, the the
00:32:37
Speaker
It's a particular society because we have the the associations of protection of nature and the environment.
00:32:51
Speaker
Their role is buy and to sell some land. But when they revend the the fix the state says that the priorities for access to land, it's going to be...
00:33:24
Speaker
And so, the FFAR, they have to, in regard
00:33:37
Speaker
So, this function that is
00:33:45
Speaker
a little bit on the logic marchand, or in any case, the logic capitalistic maximization of profit, because there is no competition in the most off-froats. The second thing is that they are titular of a law of preemption, so that means that when there is a bank who happens out their intermediary, they can eventually, according to some criteria, again once, fix by the state, substitute a initial acquiesce, buy buy
00:34:16
Speaker
du va varietyor pump sore san revis criier caci has this team could appreciate roche to runfo simone dehiterchie parletta elvoardiaba amre the um So,
00:34:36
Speaker
So, we see that our lives are very, very, in-dehors of the logic of the classic, liberal, that we can know in this system, and that it comes to act that the earth is not a merchandise like this. So, this is very beautiful, and, actually, for...
00:34:55
Speaker
ah who All our neighbors, and even ailleurs in the an institution that allows us to get out of the market on their purchase and their price.
00:35:18
Speaker
The problem is the organization of the agricultural sector. is to say that the syndicality and the institutions have been created an where the agricultural population was the majority of the rural population and part the substantial population.
00:35:37
Speaker
yeah in participantseldo de lapo france Today, the are 1,5% of the population, population. So and a decision to decide.
00:35:53
Speaker
But they behave in a start the principle that the farmers want to define all them what is good for agriculture, but it means what is the territories, the landscape, the alimentation, the environment, the climate.
00:36:08
Speaker
without having no money to the all of its orientations. ah For reasons both symbolical, because the agriculture remains figure very French and and all the and and capacity capacity to blockage.
00:36:42
Speaker
but this capacity bo casually detpa power ab jaance delay touch on on the re long milon cat manyday rutor ah ah don look at we can he <unk>o like a pastit dere of by letri okay yeah so do in restaurant like i best them at har or the will So the and
00:37:20
Speaker
and So, I think that, in a
00:37:39
Speaker
For example,
00:37:50
Speaker
in these organizations, so it would be necessary to integrate them. ah The system of representation of the syndicalism agricultural, today, is completely biaised. I don't want to go into detail because will take while, but it's quite documented.
00:38:03
Speaker
So there, there is a problem on the perimeter lookingour the the la as ah please sure it objective key with song ah bycriic simone pa um plaistron kolujiki trerebu crian char once his organization in a
00:38:36
Speaker
yeahosco servevo has strong effective upwards which is a aure ah yeah on the up you know modi du but the yeah And and Access to Land.
00:38:54
Speaker
There are plenty exchanges on what are the good the bad uses. There were reforms in to transform radically their farm regime? Could you give us some examples?
00:39:30
Speaker
going to be kind question I'm going to that fact, we have talked about it because technically in reform of the regime of the the
00:40:09
Speaker
in the economy, including the World Bank or the FMI, or other exchange exchange at the level smaller levels, will push to the merchandising of the rights fonciers. There are still countries where the land belongs to the state, so these are the state regimes and the state yeah yeah said This land is managed by the on basis in the South Africa, where it generates certain of conflicts.
00:41:06
Speaker
and the able to take problems. I think in Mali, for example, think one of the Sankara was assassinated and reversed was this relationship
00:41:24
Speaker
this relationship to maintain a right and or from cki the agriculture which was not fully integrated into the capital. I think that in the imaginary collective, the question of changement review foncier in the capital, it is associated with the idea reform agrares and associated with an imaginary rather latino-american.
00:41:44
Speaker
you clo genvo with cittra du So
00:41:54
Speaker
It's a slogan invented by Florence Magogne, Mexican revolutionary. And one of the great agres reforms, a little emblematic of the XXe century, is the reform agres of Mexican Revolution, which creates a common regime on the Mexican ah territory, which tries to emancipate the workers of the territory.
00:42:22
Speaker
It's not a the internal power and re-accapement of the agricultural economy by the old pali enant the land of have no land, but they have no land of economy.
00:43:00
Speaker
commerce. So they will put the peasants a regulated way in the commerce. So it has not completely worked, but it clearly in the right sense.
00:43:11
Speaker
And what's interesting that this regime of the city,
00:43:24
Speaker
finally, the abolition the regime of the Eridos, it's not Florence Magone who puts the word in place, it's the revolution zapatista. And in fact, it a little bit concomitant with the Oshia Paz, which is one of the great revolutionary movements around the issue of access to the earth, recent.
00:43:48
Speaker
And so, since the Eridos are abolished by the Mexican government, there a popular movement. The causality would be bit complicated to put in mind, but in all cases, there is a symptom of the cause of the communs concomitant with a and revolution in Mexico. So there, we have some interesting information.
00:44:15
Speaker
ah pay i song even dead but termi tuipposis so to ah do rio um celllo the ge committeeist ah pier um law t key k d liy vouchchatorque degen fraie so they do the se And put back to one yeah in u on google in correationtro as a first untralatability the region poli ear And
00:44:47
Speaker
And for example, they cite the coup state of 1964 in Brazil. um go yeah know proe from marero bra brazilli In reform for poor meronas super and you what ah are says sits setsp mi needs to And,
00:45:31
Speaker
agriculture is less important, or in the I in mind.
00:45:52
Speaker
lookses again move from my strong pay and tersson like out I'm going to change a little bit of subject to talk about
Social Security for Alimentation Discussion
00:46:00
Speaker
an idea that you defend, the social security of the alimentation.
00:46:04
Speaker
What would it be like, and according to you, in which measure is its work? Yeah, we were a little bit talking about that earlier when I said that...
00:46:17
Speaker
alimentary system oriented by capitalism has led to the exploitation of the in the transformation alimentary, are not a job super.
00:46:53
Speaker
the the chain, we see that there are environmental restrictions and that it doesn't allow an alimentation quality. or in quantity sufficient. So there is a And measure society?
00:47:37
Speaker
not so rivia cor um um and
00:47:49
Speaker
how could we start from what was done in 1946 with the and
00:48:08
Speaker
which is ze reant ah the and is So the
00:48:56
Speaker
So there we have the health insurance.
00:49:04
Speaker
this convention would be decided by social security and social health care, local, organized democratic and who would say that we would do a society together around such a food and 150 € per person and per month would be
00:49:30
Speaker
production, and in its quality nutritional, symbolical, etc. yeah So the second pillar the democracy. democracy The third pillar is is produced.
00:49:47
Speaker
The idea is to have an income which is to regulate social inequalities. But it's to say that the produced in society because society exists and therefore society has ju donte yeah la partition said valer ah umummo walllihi i ba vi niro um madi in negelit duncovel restef chessis ne mu duvara du san san contoro pakistani pamoir a de pance shi ah de prodduy
00:50:20
Speaker
auprès de professionals conventionnés, le tout financé par de la cotisation sociale. C'est ça l'idée de sociale de l'alimentation. Et donc, ce n'est pas une sortie du capitalisme.
00:50:33
Speaker
Ce n'est pas tout à fait une sortie même du marché puisqu'il un marché très encadré, très régulé, mais un marché quand même
00:50:40
Speaker
of the food of the food of the food of the food.
00:50:45
Speaker
long pool she said the pririmin boli travao de fijali monter viu rimi laronos solveva viis le ramur ah yeah liprodu or just pri orchestra justellaer It also allows us to orient and transform the a substantial part of the food food food ah don show two su tetro de case ah the security association ma asron ah And so it's in that we defend. Is it realisable?
00:51:29
Speaker
um ah technically, juridically, yes. There is no need to the Sixth Republic. There no need to be released from the European Union. We have worked it the jurists.
00:51:39
Speaker
It is totally envisageable. After, the question is the
00:51:54
Speaker
which aims to popularize this idea, to defend it can do a and so the all kinds of experiments, of all kinds of practices at the exist before the Second World War II, that even sous Vichy, Pétain will create the location of the workers and in 1946.
00:52:43
Speaker
And so, to arrive at this level of appropriation. So, it goes through the education popular,
00:53:00
Speaker
It's not universal, it's... It's... It's... It's...
00:53:04
Speaker
misa perid ba duty still the work ispa is so mo she and allusic le aus are someones pure asquitileques su conreo de bi in seno france <unk> san san java la for toiamo e dulualle ah for a c the me complexity de reform ah you usual plant pool ruha ma javia yeah su dos on li remotea so yeah They could be instituted by the
00:53:43
Speaker
Thank you for the to the social security and alimentation. We could probably talk long about arguments for, the critics, the question of its feasibility, you have already made concise presentation and interesting.
00:54:01
Speaker
So now, for a little bit of activism, face to There is the political action.
00:54:23
Speaker
How do you evaluate the in and
00:54:49
Speaker
they say like he some suppose on fat ago And the world in general and perhaps in France and in some countries in particular. And it's a little bit in an between-deux, it's to say that for very long time, we were so the communist China. And in fact,
00:55:30
Speaker
these experiments at large scale, think they're going to have to be better worse. And it's not the place to make the best and worse of the
00:55:41
Speaker
the of these regimes, but in any case, it has about. And so, this know how much we can say things,
00:56:05
Speaker
There is no more models. In the on
00:56:28
Speaker
So we have two roles there. One is going to to etc.
00:56:55
Speaker
And the the
00:57:12
Speaker
Well, this is the end of the 90s. 20, 30 years later, we realize that it is not revolutionary it is totally incapable of reverse the vapor.
00:57:23
Speaker
And new two se on epu like is on the come on not i'm the she emon do miro experience command de fmar who kid you up all the from
00:57:42
Speaker
I think there is something that relates to autonome temporaire.
00:57:59
Speaker
» On
00:58:08
Speaker
La boue à Notre-Dame-des-Landes, je pense que les hadistes les plus endurcis sont pas fanatiques de la boue à Notre-Dame-des-Landes, mais c'est… what they have been doing for a long time, they say that want to
00:58:28
Speaker
and sa vier mu de ro restaurant soe ave de aroeritori some pade actually liberrter So to the So it means working with the elected elected officials, working with the political parties, working with the unions. I think one of the very strong points was the capacity to embark the CGT Vinci in the fight against Notre-Dame-des-Landes.
00:58:55
Speaker
ah in plan vocahuki sore she do And and we're going to be moving an alliance that will surpass just of ultra-gauche and political autonomy with different forces.
00:59:14
Speaker
That's from the point view the people the more radical and the more revolutionary. yeah do not cookte yeah tutanta And the
00:59:31
Speaker
very legalists and who, in fact, accept to who are revolutionists.
00:59:42
Speaker
And that I think it's really a very important creuset of the strategic alliance in France today and which has created something very interesting where la you this su out ah reformary revolution ah a lipalet mo if ii yeah to pronoun The But it is made of side with the idea of composition.
01:00:12
Speaker
It is to say that we don't have all same political horizons, we don't have same ideological traditions. but we are able to a
01:00:39
Speaker
And so that, it will be mobilized. So will be crystallized, I think, around the date of Notre Dame de Longue, but will be mobilized throughout a lot of fights. And think it's what they're doing today, the rise of the earth, despite the great difficulties action and the repression very strong. And I think that the repression of the rise of the earth and the height of the political ambition which is brought by this
01:01:22
Speaker
ah poantiste ah lareamon a gu duruchi retoreso the deepesttc ah in time day knew niconori kiss aafot charles that bay you show the pi um um it's a direct etcter du la napu said to the
01:01:52
Speaker
extremely different and anddu girba we ah in reform ah this affair or in reform ah ah dula restaurantron like say alaa far probably if you see i did not and fans of legalism and political legalism.
01:02:07
Speaker
e a la four ah la preion needs shali ba sin ah and lu fa ro rio likeron the the it i'm the fa so ccon A
01:02:44
Speaker
The OGM is to be authorized in the law. And in fact, we see that there is an interpensation between the fauchers who make an election illegal ah e de jacquesvo sayie de ferac deo ala some and the Assembly. So, there is all that.
01:03:04
Speaker
To talk quickly about the link where you work, can you tell more about the missions and actions this organization, but also about the limits that can find a model that even the organization assumes?
01:03:18
Speaker
Terre de de
01:03:35
Speaker
what is can we do with land and that it is a vocation to bring voice to the society civil the land.
01:03:58
Speaker
So that's the big principle of Terre de Lin.
01:04:08
Speaker
the question of the We need to talk about the property. And the best way to talk about the property is confront it pragmatically. And so one of the options preza v partage la turkeyqueish was say to the that
01:04:38
Speaker
in agroecology, in agriculture, and in agriculture, and in the territory. So to put in place a principle of solidarity between inhabitants the territory who have a little bit of money who will decide put it there rather than livre A,
01:04:52
Speaker
and allow the development agriculture. In this action, Terre de France on about 400 farms.
01:05:06
Speaker
ah a p you know instead i true once um and yourar ideas and ah sure aviion get off um lu i soundus yes good steve vernora a oka team he did the ji ba on actually could achieve on the day actually move So And
01:05:30
Speaker
ni pretty much as fond do but yeah <unk>ter de vinnao command de mar on la jeque and all It's complicated because we're not out the capital, so we have to pay attention to the capitalist society, to pay attention to the bourgeois. So all that remains little broken at some level, but it's already an enthousiasmant.
01:05:50
Speaker
yeah it's also something to say, look, the private private, bourgeois, the maximization of profits, it's not a fatal thing. In fact, we can organize it differently, including society. Today, we can find people who want to organize it differently. The link is mobilized.
01:06:09
Speaker
umni be neval leron chemer piach jean um ti dero associationity from The France today.
01:06:30
Speaker
So, see schmoke shoeske j j srena and respond to thema um sweet and I
01:06:41
Speaker
land in France is 28 million hectares, so 10,000 hectares on 28 million. It's not like change agriculture in France. It's not we're going change the the necessary to reflect on the scale.
01:07:05
Speaker
France. and So this limit is there. And then there's a way to find it in an economic capitalist economy. so depend should botro okay ah the connecty yeah and pafapa foren while yeah but did negative pi and then ni and well i plan these needers so and and It on it I
01:07:37
Speaker
and to say at the same time that the agriculture paisan and biologically works. We always say there is no solution for the agriculture in-deliver pesticides, there solution in-deliver of the endettement.
01:07:48
Speaker
And we are always trying to prove that there are different ways and they are not even in the
01:08:14
Speaker
that is the the the France at all sair the movie dis own and on edge yeah umris like It
01:08:47
Speaker
and of the side it would allow to lead this culture and eventually to go see the you it and
01:09:25
Speaker
and political actions, that lets us make force of putting a force which at the end could be gagnant. That allows you to rebondir on our question.
01:09:36
Speaker
You said that the actions of Terres de allows to move the lines. What are, the
01:10:10
Speaker
if we think about it, that earth would become a common, for example.
01:10:24
Speaker
in the idea that this resource is preserved and not destroyed. and call lu chancelet andla on the andutia shop no ah lales from like soer france So it's the community.
01:10:38
Speaker
What is the legitimate community for managing the land? And clearly, the current tour of the table of the SAFER or the control the structures for the market of the land, We not the and the so orientation.
01:11:02
Speaker
ah thear a ladies intro c a liisonetro Where are the
01:11:33
Speaker
ahpoli agriculture someletment decoratco The corralled by the agricultural needs, and
01:11:50
Speaker
ah example and The region is the Venice, which is the region of the Maritime region around La Rochelle, which in general produces only the blé.
01:12:01
Speaker
So people who want to everyone is only producing the milk. do only produce the milk? Because we have invested heavily in the port palace, we have export the grain.
01:12:13
Speaker
yeah i don' compet to ku media orientte we proja du gra lepaig gra or u is a bittanni terta projo gigra poor li partte partudan ah equal clearly viju betaak no and can So make sense.
01:12:28
Speaker
in migaba con sweetna says so niceilap pourri irige lierriel convavavi nasisittala that's ah and
01:12:48
Speaker
i don't in building institutions of the land in common at long term which
01:13:07
Speaker
based on the aspirations of the population. And in branching, there are of the
01:13:35
Speaker
where they are. So there are these issues very pragmatic, very rapid, which require either laws or even regulations, which totally feasible in the VIII without being taken from the European Union. And at the same time, all this participates to build the idea that we could manage the food and food and food like communs at the end, in the capital.
01:13:58
Speaker
Okay. Are you seeing models or wars in other countries that could inspire you in France? Can you give examples movements in for an appropriation of the
01:14:37
Speaker
they can organize them to to
01:14:58
Speaker
which is to that he has been given by the past with political assassinats, etc. So there is something very inspiring.
01:15:12
Speaker
We talked a little bit earlier, but... and lavinun zapati disi special shepas so so so homoti mua sanzi thes abuleme second and this experience extrememo results um and caprea will sit tu ta one the mar sound the region ko mutammo and a ship saen maad dish so manypa and calledna on sankarico on a for and ki did do yeah and and pagu one zi berjaza likeeter each fute control is like apamentely go system cu find is it ah i film the productionand is triel andla yeah yeah dilutexreman piance So
01:15:58
Speaker
Well, certainly in the and
01:16:17
Speaker
yeah they were producing food for the
01:16:32
Speaker
ah on pense aussi à des luttes contre l'accapement des terres dans le delta du Niger, voilà, il y a plein de choses qui se sont passées là, et si on regarde dans l'espace européen, donc sur la question des communs, il y je pense, deux endroits où il y a des choses qui sont faites de manière intéressante, c'est-à-dire la Via Campesina, donc il y a une...
01:16:52
Speaker
a coordination of the the the population rural.
01:17:13
Speaker
very institutional, on the international law, which is not the most invested space today. he said theka astro you see the derivative um montte for laguov's de detectment i see when wantal when And
01:17:37
Speaker
they have in part managed and managed. So there are things very interesting to look at. yeah know far yeah laphon foncerri romonez And the to the land.
01:17:54
Speaker
so like so there in Ireland, which is an area of great landowners, with an exploitation very capitalist, even if it but very capitalist, very industrialized their work.
01:18:15
Speaker
And there is a foreign reform in Ecosse which is coming to sacralize some rights the village of the access to the land and to their alimentation.
01:18:26
Speaker
So it's very honest, but there are things that happen. Thank you on a
01:18:57
Speaker
Well, not only on the
01:19:12
Speaker
who has been a factor of radicalization on these issues of politics agricultural and alimentary. It's Reprendre la
01:19:27
Speaker
It's in the collection Anthropocène du Seuil. think it's really very nice to read. It's very long, it's very evocative and very mobilisative. So think that's really very incontourable thing today.
01:19:46
Speaker
And it's also a which in
01:20:11
Speaker
And it allows you to put a of challenges. After, we had produced a lot of things with the also the...
01:20:30
Speaker
did ro de subbelitter notaire because as's one of france when you want an astronnae libain like city fautter ah la prian to the the that
01:20:47
Speaker
but It's a 180 pages, but I but they're quite nice and nice, and then we can go to the same collectives.
01:20:59
Speaker
pre yeah click t from then kiunna And in a trimestriel called Fracas. of political ecology, which I on the the podcast platform.
01:21:28
Speaker
So, there's a question of the question of the water question of Deter, which is on the platform Blast.
01:21:53
Speaker
it's here like and are going to and a and sexual in agriculture um It's pretty good. So in fact... Even in the podcast. But in all of sudden, it's really important to inform you there.
01:22:40
Speaker
Thank you very much. You have made excellent recommendations, some that I And and complex.
01:23:10
Speaker
It's a is about it. There's plenty of things.
01:23:23
Speaker
as yeah potentialial Thank you very much for having taken the found it very interesting, but I also learned new things during this discussion.
01:23:45
Speaker
Thank very much and to see you, Tanguy. Thank you.
01:23:58
Speaker
I hope you enjoyed this conversation. If it's the leave a note of 5 stars on your favorite podcast platform. It's thanks to your support that more people can discover these essential subjects.
Podcast Support and Contact Information
01:24:10
Speaker
You can also support us by making a donation on our Tipeee page. It helps improve the quality of the episodes and to guarantee the perennials this podcast. The link is available on our website www.tieraylibertadpodcast.org If you have comments or ideas future guests, write me to thomas.com.
01:24:31
Speaker
The transcriptions of all episodes are accessible site and traduies in several languages. Finally, for not her newsletter direct to see you soon in Tierra Libertad.