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Episode 5: Agriculture industrielle : comprendre ses racines, imaginer l’après
26 Plays8 days ago
Dans cette épisode, je reçois Jacques Caplat. En tant qu’agronome, il a travaillé dans de nombreux rôle, en tant que conseiller agricole, puis dans plusieurs organisations liée au développement de l’agriculture biologique et des semence paysanne. Jacques est aussi conférencier et écrivain. Il est l’auteur de plusieurs ouvrages, dont Une agriculture qui répare la planète, coécrit avec l’écoféministe indienne Vandana Shiva. Dans son dernier ouvrage intitulé Agriculture industrielle, il décrypte les origines et conséquences de ce modèle agricole que l'on considère maintenant comme conventionnel, et met en lumière des alternatives.
📝 Notes de l’épisode:
Agriculture industrielle et Une agriculture qui répare la planète, de Jacques Caplat
Et le monde devint silencieux, de Stéphane Foucart
Le printemps silencieux, de Rachel Carson
Silence dans les champs, de Nicolas Legendre
Champs de Bataille, l'histoire enfouie du remembrement, de Inès Léraud avec Léandre Mandard et Pierre Van Hove
Paysannes. Histoire de la cause des femmes dans le monde agricole, de Jean-Philippe Martin
Les moissons du futur, de Marie-Monique Robin
Il est où le patron?, réalisée par Maud Bénézit et le collectif Les paysannes en polaire
FNAB, la Fédération Nationale d’Agriculture Biologique,
👋 Restons en contact!
https://tierraylibertadpodcast.org/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tierraylibertad_podcast/
✊Soutenez-nous: https://fr.tipeee.com/tierra-y-libertad-podcast
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Transcript
Introduction to Tierra Libertad
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to this new episode of Tierra Libertad. In this podcast, we give the technology in agriculture and the dangers the capitalism.
Meet Jacques Kaplan
00:00:35
Speaker
In this episode, welcome Jacques Kaplan. the development of biological agriculture and the semences paysan.
00:00:50
Speaker
Jacques is also conference and writer. He is author several books, including Une agriculture qui répare la planète, co-written with eco-feminist indian Vandana Shiva. In his last book, Agriculture Industrielle, he describes the origins consequences of this in light an alternative.
00:01:12
Speaker
like mercidawaep they saidmitta from but massin moaged Hello me.
00:01:24
Speaker
and zo um so but quo Yes, I'm a of
00:01:46
Speaker
And then I worked at the where I worked on a lot more national and european. At this was is so se most to jo donque And codo sister kenjibu could have a year z and they found that third you resource morepe and co de giqueler franco on
00:02:30
Speaker
European Union and all the tintouin. And then, since 2008, because it was now little old,
00:02:39
Speaker
I am a Electron Libre, an entrepreneur of agronomy, auteur of books, conferences. My main activity is a conference and auteur.
00:02:51
Speaker
also supported anthropologist in social anthropology. I am also an anthropologist.
00:02:59
Speaker
and I work also for the Association Agir for the which I've been long-term administrator and responsible, and for which I'm now a certain number of issues, agriculture and alimentation.
Failures of Industrial Agriculture
00:03:12
Speaker
as egypted annualmon the the chieddoian sitri nutamo the one is twelve but but jobbu just rimo a mo that's been evolo president du of franises de mon but du fi astrobuant nationalal okay if you have some view on soon next page for um don't she pri don theform france meci said present presentation In your book, agriculture on industry, we stop and think about it.
00:03:39
Speaker
You dress a agriculture. A does not allow majority of farmers to live correctly in their work, seems incapable of responding to crises like climate change,
00:03:58
Speaker
and who, at the are at origin of many environmental issues, social and health issues. So, a
00:04:15
Speaker
It's very important for me to say that. It's a very good question. I always start my conference with this explanation. Because it's fundamental know, then, the understand what's specific in agriculture is to change the etc.,
00:04:41
Speaker
They think that it's the single agriculture, universal, unique, etc. that it riav pesu simmer can so like jobba was just la ditine a sohimi ah pea nu andduri rental steve works sauce fact restaurant these ah dis i mean moremar And or exist in fact.
00:05:06
Speaker
There are some agriculture.
Diversity in Agricultural Practices
00:05:08
Speaker
Of course, the concept agriculture exists, there is no singular use. And
00:05:28
Speaker
but yes And it's one of the points of invention agriculture. One big mistake that Today, we know at least a dozen, there are probably that are not yet identified by archaeology.
00:05:49
Speaker
There are some in China, there are some in Central America, etc. yeah you don't sopo ah ummidore ah arao ferillo comreo um seba of vaic yesururra de cur de cerreala pi on cuturece is cportton paco c de kuu is a sojarete i mean optimization ah does conper And the there is one culture.
00:06:11
Speaker
your <unk>u In you have only one. conservative doesarant believe a could you believe It's logical when we talk about agriculture, because we are in this vision of the logical. Most the world's agriculture are not based on pure cultures.
00:06:32
Speaker
all the other areas of agriculture, it's based on a mix of cultures, and not on a plant the parcel. donnctai rammonzaportton sat the point depart se eic cuola tuta faun that per performmo So which takes as presuppose that we only one plant in the parcel, which already orientes a lot of the techniques that we put in the
Historical Shifts to Reductionist Agriculture
00:06:55
Speaker
work. And then, after winning Europe, especially the Mediterranean, and then the continental Europe, this agriculture, beyond the notion pure culture, has developed a vision which was scientifically called the reductionism.
00:07:09
Speaker
The reductionism scientific It's a heritage of the the The problem is that in the scientific-reduction system, we stop there.
00:07:33
Speaker
while in a thought that we call systemic, it will just be an attempt to go to a vision that puts the elements in relation. The problem of this thought reductionist is that is not be able to make this relationship and think that it is enough to cut the in small pieces to have the solution.
00:07:50
Speaker
Typically, we say that in the trees, the rendements are less weak, so if I want to increase the rendements, I have to cut the trees. It's typical of a an instant T. In a
00:08:14
Speaker
When we look at the rendements in the of the parcel and in the time, we see that if it is surrounded by trees, de run ma omius fromemeie could also get the
00:08:28
Speaker
And in the a certain number of renewables of minerals and infiltrations of water, etc. which makes the levels much more stable and better also at long term. So, when we enlarge space and time, the reasoning is not at all same.
00:08:42
Speaker
So this idea reduction is very profound in agriculture. And a important element that is important and that is to understand in the history this conventional agriculture, is that in the 19th century, when we realized that the plant needed, for their activity and to create organic material, of six atoms in particular, carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, azote, phosphorus, potassium.
00:09:06
Speaker
ah Carbon, of course, because the life is based on carbon, it's we call organic molecules, it's around carbon. then oxygen, hydrogen, phosphorus, potassium. Hydrogen, oxygen, the plant is found in the air and in the air. But phosphorus, potassium, they have found in the soil.
00:09:23
Speaker
And the problem is
00:09:37
Speaker
for that plant can be absorbed, it needs to be cassated, that these molecules are released in the soil. this is what they are, by the xwili has seen is short but activity activity of the soil.
00:09:50
Speaker
Some microorganisms are nourishing the humus and, in they are able to absorb as the plants absorb. And one thing that said the scientists at the 19th century when they discovered it was to say that for in fact, it's a lot more, but it's the six main elements, we will bring them directly to plants. It be much easier to depend on the soil.
00:10:17
Speaker
yeah don't go up orloads ah ah disangre ah don azot fu for poassium donmon shimi fan dise shi mix So
00:10:31
Speaker
The problem in doing that, It's performant when are all the time in superfusion, but a total imbalance. Because when there is no mineral mineral mineral
00:10:45
Speaker
leantte noiqui per de demonineerro corit mool le libert e la vi deante a vi so so unadequous you know a blue lap plotto on sim meto so in feroy plantte relanci rus sortus and roque kawales a portus who form mineral cerebl even if it's raining or is absorbed in mass as it is brought in form of soluble.
00:11:12
Speaker
and have plants who are gorgées of minerals, which they practically don't It's like a guard-emanger grand ouvert, then there are parasites, diseases that be installed.
00:11:23
Speaker
So we have made the plant fragile, with this approach which was typically reductionist. have made equation. ah poor ph in the better years so so czimonish For to
00:11:39
Speaker
It's that another element of of the 1813-1814 in France. ah It's easily datable with invention the academies for other reasons. In other disciplines, it's very clear.
00:12:03
Speaker
And in agriculture, it's very clear. Since this time, there is
00:12:19
Speaker
And when we join with the reductionist vision of the occidentity science,
00:12:24
Speaker
We obtain aberrations, such as for example, pla siri the of plants and animals. We have put in That is to reproduce in the the equation the selection the selection.
00:12:48
Speaker
So we have plants who can have this great rendement, unless they have all the
00:13:03
Speaker
So we will have pesticides, massive. So, engrais, pesticides, irrigation, which become necessary for this agriculture. And finally, it is very well this agriculture conventionally.
00:13:16
Speaker
It is based on the desire to artificialize the world, to control the world. In fact, the nature of the environment becomes an adversary to control. And after the control, we get a formidable level.
00:13:31
Speaker
But if we are not able to will not. It is not what happens in the And fact, we call conventional because it the agriculture that is the world today.
00:13:49
Speaker
That Europe has imposed the world via the conquest of 1970s.
The Spread of Industrial Agriculture
00:14:00
Speaker
And, according to all these historical steps, it's today agriculture, which present little around the world, which structure the world's economy economy.
00:14:10
Speaker
And in fact, it's convention in the institutions. That's why we call it conventional. It's not a judgment. It's sometimes extensive, sometimes intensive. It's not always very productive, sometimes it is.
00:14:22
Speaker
For me, it's the the moment, we're only in a technical After, don't know if you want to go on the economic description of agriculture.
00:14:33
Speaker
Allons-y, if you want to a who farmers or I don't know what.
00:15:03
Speaker
But on ah say lo la la pison the so ah la but viison deter parliamentle move mon deannclo ju no guterre pri le the movevmo colonure de yeah one avanine propri teri laterre is a datala they didn't preie It the
00:15:44
Speaker
on the rest of the world, in the occidental world, because it is already a jugement biaisier because europeo-centred,
00:16:03
Speaker
it is developed in this agriculture that is called industrial, based on an obsession of massification, It was very important to produce lot in uniform, standardised way.
00:16:16
Speaker
It was very important to have uniformity, so to calibrate the fruits, have animals with particular conformations, allow a transformation of mass industrial, and then a transport by train, which was a absolute revolution in the human history,
00:16:43
Speaker
ah it we ah de yeah circuit distribution i't said said volunted a massive uniform is standard ah con use yes sainttra ise log And to We will centralize the selection, that comes to that I talked about earlier.
00:17:05
Speaker
We have a variety completely standardised. We have centralised the organization of the agriculture in and no longer than a sous-traitant.
00:17:20
Speaker
In France, until the middle of the XXXX, there was still a duality. There was an industrial agriculture which was already very, very present, much more than what we have the impression by the history history or by some historical historical work. There was already a half of the agriculture which was clearly industrial since the XIXXX in France.
00:17:39
Speaker
But we had still a countryside agriculture until 1960, we had shift in the So if we talk about this shift,
00:17:49
Speaker
don't sim page tomato so best cumon You just explained that the origin industrial agriculture is quite far, but that there was a turning point that started first before the World War that it really accelerated later.
Debating Industrial Agriculture's Impacts
00:18:04
Speaker
Can we say that there was form of consensus on need to Yes, it was even more clear we look at the 19th century, where it was really theorized. In the 20th century, it was almost already become a sort evidence that we didn't discuss anymore.
00:18:28
Speaker
In the 19th century, it was a little more discussed, and some of the contested, think, a great thinker of the 19th century, who was Elisabeth Recluse, who was a very very very good geographer, who was very popular, who was really revolutionized the geography, and who was a great figure of the anarchism, and he was contested more.
00:18:50
Speaker
yeah lilo contee de montage
00:19:07
Speaker
ki of fodija ara dondo and assemblly ah ah what one ah ah you visit ah sati for olivia like milra strong the de laishcheisonipish visit in noral quaque ferre so so model andrie permete do do do on ah don't yeah of normal. for la la la mait diterre seta bartone seterri kuurre
00:19:41
Speaker
do do con men no And then there was in I the
00:20:07
Speaker
this d knew their own fboudo de jeantroagre And the it for
00:20:27
Speaker
The prosperity du ro citypo classicic on sweet camem oiban and grandbotan of and the exploitation of the colonies.
00:20:46
Speaker
and that the allowed to better nourish the population. That making mass production standardised, we would better nourish workers, we would better the So
00:21:08
Speaker
a pri dont donourroach's sister sat the corri bizarre ah zre pasu favikaul And the I ku ah promarkx really bi um cons situated in class oois because they were both proprietors of their medium of production and workers to increase their wealth of production. In fact, they were both exploits and exploits. So, being both proprietors and workers, they were hors class, they were not in class, they were in class.
00:21:58
Speaker
And this regard, they were obstacle to the Marxist revolution. it was sain for the Marxists to reduce the to transform either in a salary or a salary in the cities, to give them a class in a sense. So
00:22:26
Speaker
can do ze know Why find this sidérant, is that this analysis is monstrously genrées. It's because of the the agriculture of the 19th century, it was women.
00:22:43
Speaker
And women were not proprietors of their medium production. Those who had a men. Women brought their main-due, and They didn't increase their capital because they didn't have any.
00:22:55
Speaker
So, it is false to say that the peasants didn't fall the division marxist of work. They were in the middle of
00:23:15
Speaker
So there was still situation very Marxist the country, even if the farmers had a duality in their identity. And so for all these reasons, in fact, a little everyone was favoring to the industrialization.
00:23:31
Speaker
It seemed to be the human progress.
Rethinking Agricultural Modernization
00:23:35
Speaker
And it was only some thinkers like Elisabeth Recluse, say, but attention, this agriculture in order to destroy the world.
00:23:50
Speaker
So there are maybe some problems behind it. But before there was this ecological prise of consciousness, it seemed evident. And at the middle of the XXXXX, it like Edgar Pisani is very interesting to this point.
00:24:03
Speaker
He was the great minister of agriculture. I a a He was always known the minister of very,
00:24:41
Speaker
e or fe sa you do trere if i'm playing the bo volranty and de bofo He wanted modernize the French agriculture, and it was very sincere. And why I say was sincere?
00:24:54
Speaker
Because in this the ecosystems.
00:25:20
Speaker
» Et en fait, il a les erreurs qu'il avait faites comme ministre. Ce qui prouve bien qu'il était de bonne foi. Alors c'est une question que je trouve extrêmement intéressante et que me pose souvent à moi-même.
00:25:42
Speaker
And in 10 or 20 years, might say, how could you believe that or to make this decision? So it's always interesting to look And in this podcast, it's a bit what I'm trying to do, especially on the subject technology, a domain that I know a little bit, and on the myth of the technological progress in agriculture.
00:26:10
Speaker
And many people, or most people, see this progress something positive or at least neutral. So, to
00:26:33
Speaker
in fact, for this approach, what is important is to always ask the question, why it we do?
00:26:39
Speaker
And in fact, the big problem, and it's true in agriculture, like in many other areas, is that we have a tendency to continue to choose choice without asking the question, but in fact, why we do it at a moment?
00:26:51
Speaker
To which question we answered? And to bring a response question which we no longer have. it fed the reveiraimo rotore tori butre excremon And portton pacar saidoirra a loine nawar but umme the the the
00:27:12
Speaker
at this moment, we can question it. There is one part this question, which is why the And The knowledge has evolved.
00:27:25
Speaker
And what seemed like an inevitable response to a period, can't be the best answer later. Typically, the question selection of plants today, the question, even more global, of the use of the synthesis, of the ingredients, we can say that at a seem the best solution.
00:27:47
Speaker
But it's not the
00:28:12
Speaker
But there are other ways doing the selection that arrive also to a very good result in terms of the rate, but based on another reason. And since the reasoning, which was the only possible at an era, led an ecological impasse,
00:28:28
Speaker
Our responsibility is to ask if we have no other solutions. all the challenge the agriculture is, face to ancients questions, are we not yet to have a new solution today? And for almost all, my answer is So it's time to change.
00:28:42
Speaker
Thank you for your answer. And in what are the choices that we make today for agriculture? They're going to be simple production food? Because in fact, agriculture is very important to understand.
Agriculture's Environmental Impact
00:28:58
Speaker
It goes to be when we say it, we don't always have it in mind. It's agriculture, for example, in France, occupies the half the territory.
00:29:04
Speaker
yoor pescon nepu yeah pa de forrey were together the plot has jean down pesque dere tulip so um so pati for la pond riular mi me on a ca san onossono teritorio cupi but like you se consider bla ah connect kuoonna approach or connectivity misro dis ye de sa um ah don't care hes pass on ni kujura And
00:29:29
Speaker
Notamment, il faut savoir que l'agriculture pèse entre un quart et un tiers du dérèglement climatique.
00:29:56
Speaker
Agriculture is also one of the main causes of the defunding biodiversity. It's also the IPBES, which is the equivalent the GIEC, but applied to biodiversity.
00:30:06
Speaker
It's the international experts on biodiversity. The IPBES identifies five main causes of the defunding biodiversity. which is also dramatic as the climate climate. We don't take care of it, but it's absolutely terrifying and the consequences are in the way to figure it out.
00:30:22
Speaker
And this is a bomb. but And this climate climate climate, among these main causes, there are three of them liars to agriculture. One, it's the climate climate, which is for a quarter or quarter liars to agriculture.
00:30:32
Speaker
The other, it's the toxic which are essentially due to agriculture. Not that, the and the the the the etc. so,
00:30:59
Speaker
don't ah So agriculture has a considerable impact on these two big crises, the climate crisis the biodiversity crisis. Agriculture also has the essential oil today in France.
00:31:13
Speaker
ah The majority the oil used by humans are now going to agriculture. ah du So it has an impact very very heavy on the on the activities, on the life and on resources that are crucial, which are at heart of the human life. And then, when we build a capitalist empire around agriculture, we contribute ah the zo pure ah capitalist to tolerriu and contribut
00:31:43
Speaker
to the extremely dangerous dynamic is a deep dynamic of accumulation of richness.
00:32:02
Speaker
in fact, more I work on the history of agriculture, more it is evident for me that the problem of humanity today is the capitalism. Why? Because the capitalism, by definition, it's the accaparement resources in the hands of some of others.
00:32:18
Speaker
It's the basis. It's that the capitalism, it's not something else. And
00:32:32
Speaker
We have rich who are more rich and poor who are more pauvres and more nombreux. And so, at a moment, it will explode. It's not possible. And in agriculture, we're aware. And so, because they only have the way to buy the land the land of small farms.
00:32:51
Speaker
So, progressively, we have a phenomenon the land of the land of the land, which makes the of the land so enormous that no one can buy it. And now they are bought by multinationals or banks. ah
00:33:12
Speaker
We have all this logic of accaparement of the richness, which is also social logic, which is very grave for our society. And then, we have all the choices, how to do this model agro-industrial, which has intérêt to encourage the malbouffe.
00:33:29
Speaker
And that's... Well, we're going to go to the agricultural, agricultural, but it has an impact on our health and our way of living.
00:33:53
Speaker
There are a lot of model just not available at medium and long term. You started to explain at the
00:34:13
Speaker
This dynamic has accelerated after war, face to the production problems, and this agriculture has been perceived as solution. Today we hear a lot of talk about sovereignty alimentary.
00:34:27
Speaker
Can you explain the
00:34:48
Speaker
toto ah these are ah pre limon anto pool maybe one booppo to address this question, it of it It is one of the errors of this model, to make sure that it allows to fight against end, and a contradiction interne, because it has been developed to nourish world, and in fact it cannot.
00:35:23
Speaker
He can't because, as the
00:35:34
Speaker
And in fact, what happens is that, in the hands of the rich in the hands of some of the people, we create poverty.
00:35:43
Speaker
so we have some poor people. we have some poor people, have some who have bad nourish.
00:35:59
Speaker
And again, it does not have much too much of an industrial plant which is not enough of resources for nothing. and umre we boup du monda si um prio meeffa liva aevver visriel like it soky for me family that's too cool ke complex collect it by they you see me tuel verrielsis shiy fukidi kidilla biron yeah podi berio um monte po raisum maionion de ah So,
00:36:23
Speaker
So, today, we can't have a problem 12 to 15 billion humans.
Hunger and Poverty in Agriculture
00:36:28
Speaker
is there a faim in world? Because of poverty. And it's like the Brazil, for example, which is very excédentary country on the field, sees 5-10% of its population suffering from the faim.
00:36:42
Speaker
Because it is on a bit of the fishing and the local production. And so, face this reality, and also France, there are people who suffer from the faim France,
00:36:56
Speaker
yeah a verum mala we can be yeah except mour yeah there's um yeah thes jokin suur but lafa so du so ramo like he onen examplebi pu ruti if as saad a souentier dimotel sin noion kiripu demo pa um <unk>voki just come And So to
00:37:21
Speaker
is autonomy?
Autonomy and Sustainable Practices
00:37:22
Speaker
It is being a master of his choices. very important because when talk about agriculture bio, which is one of the
00:37:37
Speaker
But no, autonomy, it's at all being fermated on soi-même. When say that we're doing an infant for being autonome, it's not learn to live in small, in a small, in a small, in a small, on the of his choice. It's the same in agriculture.
00:37:50
Speaker
The autonomy, it's to manage his techniques, it's to manage his economy. ah It doesn't mean not to sell outside and sell outside. doesn't mean not to use the techniques that come outside, and it also goes to the technological debate, which could be a subject in itself to develop.
00:38:08
Speaker
It means that we have to use some techniques or some products or put in place areas, etc. in a way conscientious, controlled. When we talk about autonomy at the level agriculture,
00:38:23
Speaker
We're going to talk about autonomy. When talk about autonomy at an end of a society, it can be France, it can be Europe, it can be the Bretagne, we can articulate different levels.
00:38:34
Speaker
At Bénin, it can be nor duinna ah za puere conher totle fri du west on a planetche okay longpo ah deinir roque on poddiir said no san ofenter montter mon sepa the the
00:38:51
Speaker
It's human group who decides all of want, for which environment, for which alimentation, for which organization they want.
00:39:31
Speaker
France. ah kol preros andruro and is the the humanity. the number of countries adherents to Via Campesina.
00:39:43
Speaker
And this movement of peasants is very interesting because it is both for going to agriculture of type agriculture biologically and peasants, D'autre part, il est pour l'émancipation des femmes de façon très vindicative.
00:39:57
Speaker
Il est pour la défense des droits LGBT.
00:40:01
Speaker
Il est pour la défense des droits autochtones. ah
00:40:12
Speaker
ah Donnant sociétés les moyens de faire leur choix. C'est ça la souveraineté alimentaire. And in is the
00:40:32
Speaker
ah liberte corrective ah iro lae par sub reism <unk>in ferut shovin to say it's better at home. So it's not that at all the point.
00:40:43
Speaker
It's not to say that French production is better than others. It's just to allow French to make their French word on their choice agriculture and in agriculture. So we have a lot of things discuss here. You mentioned Brazil and I'll take look at the question about the international exchange of environmental issues which have increased.
00:41:04
Speaker
he says dog montte Even the the
00:41:25
Speaker
This question is important. What can exportations have in a agro-ecological world?
00:41:32
Speaker
And that also leads us to the distinction between autonomy and autarcy. In fact, Lula is a little bit a mystery. I see the dynamic in which he was found, but it's a deceiving, I could say.
00:41:46
Speaker
mayor misses deceancepoja It's a person who comes from a syndical world, and a dogmatistic ideology. And
00:42:09
Speaker
His first and second mandat, and now, the Okay, it's always possible choose the worst when we can choose.
00:42:31
Speaker
But Lula, today, for me, is not at all a
00:42:43
Speaker
Well, exactly. There is so of its itself system system key <unk>ni bar co you a and the
00:43:04
Speaker
We can't live autre than by compromises, especially in a complex world. may me But on the subject of agriculture, I think it has turned out of my point view because it depends on So
00:43:36
Speaker
ah nomadiri So he is obligated to give the cash to those who are the financials. So he is obligated to export the soja ah lajado tohie and no voud the exportage soja
00:43:51
Speaker
on the soil that had been forested since 2008, while it was interdit. There was an international agreement for all the soil issues from 2008, which would not be able to do the international commerce of the soja. the countries tiers. lets go to a certain cynicism ah dont vo a don kiss so so less so a sat as sin but so he han because knows as reppi may mil re die patir rika but ah if he the bad. And then, the Brésil is a of complex compromise because the Brésil, I if it's always the case, at an age, there were two ministries of agriculture.
00:44:33
Speaker
Just at the time, it was even before that Lula arrived at power. It was his predecessor, which I've lost the in
00:44:58
Speaker
It's to say that the situation local is very, very, very, very. particularly yeah But are there things to keep in the principle exportation? Well, on the idea exportation, in fact, it is not to stop the exportation. There is always a international commerce of export, even not only since the agriculture exists, since the human practice exchange. Before agriculture, the archaeology showed that even at the time of the fish, fish, fish, there were transports at long distance, certain agricultural, especially produce the pêche.
00:45:33
Speaker
ah don't on that tory did this is instruction long distanip page you to know So to a rich and an esclavagism, or in any case, a paupérisation the population? that's really the large part of the industrial agriculture today.
00:46:17
Speaker
of an importation that is quite saine. Today in France, hope that it not for tomorrow, we can't cultivate bananas, cacao, cacao, and is nothing to do with that we can import bananas, cacao, and cacao.
00:46:35
Speaker
I cite these productions because these are three typical examples of productions who can be made an ecological way. This is not the the But it's not an arbre, but
00:47:02
Speaker
We're not supposed to cut all big trees. Of course, it's not a big tree. But we can keep the trees of the equatorial trees, so can keep ecosystem all at right. and we can then practice under cultural environment.
00:47:15
Speaker
So we can combine the environment, the cultural environment and the export export culture, which allows us to provide a small amount of additional resources to the local population, something very useful to for that
00:47:42
Speaker
and that France produce agricultural productions that others do not. I think about wine, I think about corn, if we continue to raise animals. These productions are specific to French knowledge and which can be exported.
00:47:59
Speaker
However, exporting from France to the North to the Africa, it's a way to maintain the African agriculture in poverty. It's not at all an aid that we give them. Exporter de la poudre de l'économie agricole de cette région du monde.
Critique of GMOs and Standardization
00:48:33
Speaker
Because, for example, the Bretagne import from Brazil the quantities soja which equivalents to the surface of the Bretagne.
00:48:46
Speaker
So we add the surface breton and the surface supplementary of the Bretagne in Brazil for nourishing the bretail breton, we have the supply in protein in Britain which the double of the territory. So, the double of what the territory can evacuate.
00:49:00
Speaker
So, we have the excess of azote we have the problems ecologically. So, these reasons are made to a large part the export and import, but
00:49:21
Speaker
And in the case OGM, for example, the public debate very focused on but Could you more about this subject?
00:49:42
Speaker
Yes, it's a very important subject, especially in the context of climate change. Because as I said earlier, this conventional model, from the of
00:50:00
Speaker
So we're going to have very performative plants in very well controlled environment. It was But in Canada and Europe, this conventional model has been very performant.
00:50:23
Speaker
That's we say that it has level performance than the which is true. mr nireco no ro yeah is the yeah can But that control the environment.
00:50:44
Speaker
in fact, the OGM is worse. These are varieties which are made by definition in laboratory. It's the definition of the OGM. We can't get them other than an human intervention on the plant's biology.
00:50:58
Speaker
So we do that laboratory and
00:51:09
Speaker
that we then reproduce in the fields. So we have what we call a completely exogène technique. It's a technique that comes from the the control, can't control, can't control, and it's completely exogène even compared to the are. And the OGM works It costs so much, so is rentable, unless it is produced in large quantities.
00:51:36
Speaker
It is of course general problem of current semences breveting. But the OGM is even further logic where, for being rentable, it is standardised. It is necessary cultivate the same thing.
00:51:49
Speaker
So we add a layer in the standardization the problem of the industrialization. <unk>t to so soje pomatictic the the de marist korea And so fe deul ah the of mass standardised, which are completely different from the peasants. And it's an tool development. can't be an tool of development.
00:52:13
Speaker
The development, and but
00:52:28
Speaker
that the development
00:52:38
Speaker
So we're talking about the alimentary care that we talked
Towards Resilient Agriculture
00:52:40
Speaker
about earlier. It is necessary to have a control of their tools. So it is necessary to to make the the The OGM doesn't allow it.
00:52:57
Speaker
The OGM, by definition, are made to impose a country's economy, centralised, standardised. So, from an economic point of view, it's aberrant. And then there is a typical problem, archetypal, which is shown by the myth of the rice dor. We continue to see, in some places of pseudo-sthetetics who don't know anything about the domain that they talk about, but who try give a message to everyone.
00:53:26
Speaker
ah I see the same thing as an example but lorido ri yeah see nis of extraordinary the The example of what can be worse in agronomy.
00:53:38
Speaker
Because an agronomy durable from an environmental view, but also social, alimentary. It's an agronomy based on adaptation to the environment and the diversity cultures. There is a way to go from cultures as a way to go, to go from cultures associated, to mix of cultures.
00:53:54
Speaker
Because it's what allows you optimize the of when you have several cultures in a way to correspond to the environment.
00:54:14
Speaker
It's pure thermodynamics that I say. When you have a pure culture and a theory of OGM, if the conditions are not good this year, which happens regularly, as we see today in France with the climate climate,
00:54:28
Speaker
yeah lourennoi catastrophic duu eco ronoikaastroicta vierque diolle kiron quissonu the
00:54:38
Speaker
So it's a thermodynamic, a energy energy total. what is the performance, of the production of biomass, is a
00:55:05
Speaker
A the vitamin A to some populations asiatiques. But why do these populations asiatiques have today the vitamin A? Because we have imposed a industrial model based on a monoculture of rice.
00:55:16
Speaker
Their traditional agriculture alternated the rice, the vegetables, the fruits, etc. They had no carence in a vitamin A by a specialization. And if we wanted to do specialization by a rice which would bring the vitamin A,
00:55:32
Speaker
But it's just totally stupid from an agronomic point of view because we're going to eat the soil. it's stupid from an alimentary point because the solution for them to be to produce vitamins A is to allow them to cultivate vegetables.
00:55:45
Speaker
So it's n'importe what. ah do but synoed peres all poisos like audla the the like case you saniter like castron viron mont al vaca balonciron ofron mode And for to
00:56:06
Speaker
We're going to push even more into the wall of agriculture. We're going to caricature all the benefits agriculture. The solution to adapt climate change and autonomy of the country, so to be able to go to the animal, it's going to go to a diversity of cultures.
00:56:26
Speaker
It's going to go to what we call the semences paisanhas. you don't affect the sumos sp then sit sipa juleton so mon sanciiene efa na liideo vaovvini roamon sanciie but kiss so me on baba kiss onces in the the in in genetic and an evolution.
00:56:53
Speaker
Because in fact, the varieties who are cultivating today in the commerce, which are which are commercially accessible by the countries in Europe, are the varieties are European catalog. for being inscribed on the European catalog, they must be stabilized.
00:57:07
Speaker
if they are stabilized in their selection, it means they are not evolutive. Or, we need varieties which are again evolutive. why we are going to take the It's just something very pragmatic.
00:57:21
Speaker
It's the who allow the selection of the countries. And what is the selection of the countries? It's a adaptative selection constant. We're constantly adapting the the the
00:57:43
Speaker
and vitality, in a rapidity evolution which is without commutes with what we obtain by industry. Typically, the maïs, for example, not made for the sake being cultivated Europe.
00:57:58
Speaker
Because maïs, not only uses more than the blé, but done when it doesn't.
00:58:07
Speaker
He needs to be in summer, while the or um only yeah But in the summer, even a very good soil has no water.
00:58:26
Speaker
So the maïs in Europe is aberrant. And so it works only to be irrigated. But in fact, we can and to the canicule.
00:58:37
Speaker
That's what has proven an association called AgroBioPérigord, in Dordogne, especially under the impulse of someone who want to two agriculture.
00:58:59
Speaker
And in fact, they have put at point techniques of selection of rice bio-paysan, not not of rice hybrid, but of rice population, of rice pur, and in addition, in combination of rice, what we call it, population, like a troupeau of rice, in a way of having rice pur.
00:59:20
Speaker
And in fact, they have today some to the sea, which are adapted to the environment that we have in Europe. and as a viovfeti of aan on this case of and see <unk>av ver duniio pi only moen fer de six So the a
00:59:54
Speaker
Selon vous, quels sont les principaux défis à relever au-delà des champs pour soutenir la transition agroécologique?
Transitioning to Agroecology
01:00:08
Speaker
to the earth. it's time for Guy Martin, I'll talk about it, so won't even talk about it. Just to summarize that tall human, it's very complex as a notion, but bit of a case-goal, have to say.
01:00:33
Speaker
but any case, we have a
01:00:51
Speaker
ah de fatonelmo giontesque couldrugaand the per op hor because under the purrat So that's a first issue crucial. And why I'm talking about the question of the farm to human being a complex issue, it's that the solution isn't necessarily going to go to a family farm.
01:01:08
Speaker
and soau orisa but The
01:01:18
Speaker
and which allow to work to several, so to be able to get weekend, to get a
01:01:35
Speaker
After another issue, I mentioned, is the semences paysan. It's really a fundamental I think that today we will not respond to the ecological environmental issues and environmental issues if we don't put We have to develop a selection of the paysans adaptative and evolutive.
01:02:04
Speaker
Another important issue is, the to goal agriculture.
01:02:19
Speaker
Maybe tomorrow, there will be many other things to
01:02:35
Speaker
Today, the best answer the biological agriculture. To stop destroying the stop acquiring the the and capitalists and industrial industries. So we have politically to go in this sense. I a the the
01:03:16
Speaker
In the question of bio, how do we in question the chain of commercialization?
Organic Farming's Subversive Potential
01:03:22
Speaker
Because today I know and I have plenty examples that show that across France but also across the world, the bio has a great power subversive. Subversive in the sense very positive.
01:03:33
Speaker
It's those who adopt the bio are ravis and they don't have any desire to come back. including people who were capitalists industrial right. It's not a thing of gauche, for different reasons.
01:03:57
Speaker
kquesuela his um ahreque cunet ismoad dere lo some de valo de ra ahquiron conkas koirranque said valoris um ruov And
01:04:08
Speaker
And in fact, they find their autonomy intellectual, economic, technical, and it's pleasure for them. So, powerful.
01:04:23
Speaker
At the scale agriculture, it's for the moment even complicated. For the the
01:04:47
Speaker
gam on duni for vi wa pou said So to and actionnaires,
01:05:05
Speaker
It will be able to apply it at the level agroalimentation. I'm less expert in this area, but it will be able to launch a big job.
Future Directions and Optimism
01:05:13
Speaker
We have a lot of issues. Thank very much, Jacques.
01:05:17
Speaker
For concluding this interview on a positive note, I would like to ask you, what are, according to you, the zones of optimism? Or maybe you have an anecdote of lutte or other examples that you would like to share?
01:05:31
Speaker
I'm honest, today I have a lot of zones of pessimism because I see well that after a period where it was advanced in France, very clearly from 1997-98 with the minister Le Pensec,
01:05:48
Speaker
eaggerary compris lawati la go fan cycles ah so jupo ammonmonque koswapo yeah we have repjore like roijique ah yeah de mon ila defes the tree c clarimon de pre mil said if imoanglon to a like quion parliament with his mess tmonlaco yeah you have viage extreme over your law and off whole so And since 2020 in Europe, today there are plenty of zones pessimism because we are returning a little behind.
01:06:21
Speaker
I want to be honest, hour is not to be a great joy, you can do it. there are plenty of zones of optimism. And I have one very deep, which is that I was realized in working on the issue of agriculture in my last book that all the elements cool ah le ah fit two li demo all the little alternatives to agricultural, which developed 20, 30, 40, 50 years in France and elsewhere, and that have to consider it as a of
01:06:58
Speaker
and lift it trick so <unk>ri ducolirida baibaakivva and naan yeah and e but There is a little bit of a little bit some intellectuals left side these approach, thinking that it's too far, too limited, territorialement, to be a solution to a great scale.
01:07:15
Speaker
in fact, when we look well, all these solutions have a
01:07:31
Speaker
When we have movements like cap palmmo they de the etc.
01:07:59
Speaker
ah The AMAP also, which is the territorial link between consumers and producers. ah We have a multitude of initiatives which are all in common.
01:08:10
Speaker
d'être dans logique de re-territorialisation et surtout d'atomisation, de diversification, qui est exactement le contre-pied de la centralisation industrielle.
01:08:22
Speaker
Et donc, en réalité, sans l'avoir théorisé, le monde paysan est en train de mettre en œuvre exactement le contre-pied de l'agriculture industrielle. and beowski nefor seos seinni iva ah divers prena papu cons concert de lainite a So the international level, does this work.
01:08:49
Speaker
And I find it very, very, very, hope. Yes, yes, indeed. And it's a bit the turn of horizon that tried to do with this podcast. Thank you for having accepted this invitation. We have discussed many themes, so it's difficult to
01:09:19
Speaker
And for both in the notes of the on the platforms, but Well, it's not by egocentrism, it's just because the and
01:09:55
Speaker
In the very interesting books published in France recently, there is, for example, about the question the pesticides and biodiversity and political dynamics behind the book of Stéphane Foucard, and the ah leave the book of Nicholas Legendre, Silence the Chants.
01:10:19
Speaker
There is also a
01:10:32
Speaker
I think also the works of historian called Jean-Philippe Martin, who wrote lot of things on the history of agriculture. In particular, he came to do book on the countryside.
01:10:48
Speaker
And for me, it's really important to remember on the history of the women in the history of agriculture.
01:10:58
Speaker
um Who else can I name? There are lot of people, but I think I've already mentioned some.
01:11:23
Speaker
And then I can't finish without mentioning another one of the women's films in agriculture, which is very important. the in modiin the the mood benazit it depends and on poorer so re correct the fan ki It's ah except iul patron which is very interesting, on the place women in the French agriculture.
01:11:47
Speaker
for jeanque crus sula yeah dereoka maybe demono like e choio ah letsnab notammo may or see a rizokumak And to the the and the Confederation Paysan.
01:12:08
Speaker
think there is already a lot work. Thank you, Jacques, for all your recommendations. And I hope we'll continue this conversation next time. See you soon.
01:12:19
Speaker
See you soon, thank you.
Conclusion and Call to Action
01:12:22
Speaker
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01:12:34
Speaker
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01:13:01
Speaker
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