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After Dark: Blackadder's Youngest Prime Minister - Behind the Scenes of Dish and Dishonesty
11 Plays1 day ago
Joshua Paisley is joined by Simon Osborne, the actor who played William Pitt the Younger in Blackadder III's opening episode Dish and Dishonesty, for a behind-the-scenes look at one of British sitcom's most beloved political satires. The conversation traces Simon's path from a Cornish village watching Poldark being filmed to landing a Blackadder audition at sixteen - having specifically asked his agent for something like Blackadder - and recalls the moment producer John Lloyd approved his casting on the strength of a falling-apart bow tie and a scruffy carrier bag. From Ben Elton leaning over to dictate entirely rewritten dialogue on the studio floor, to the BBC wardrobe department sourcing costumes directly from Georgian-era political cartoons, and from the real Pitt's six-foot stature and his blocking of the Prince's Regency to the tantalising possibility that Simon may actually be distantly related to the man he played, this episode gets closer than any other to what it actually felt like to be inside the rotten borough of Dunny-on-the-Wold.
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Transcript
Introduction to Observations After Dark
00:00:08
Speaker
Hello, my name is Joshua Paisley and welcome back to the Observations podcast series, After Dark. This is the series where we pick a fictional election from a TV show, novel or movie and try to flesh it out.
00:00:21
Speaker
This
Focus on Blackadder's 'Dish and Dishonesty'
00:00:22
Speaker
podcast will focus on the opening of Blackadder the Third, the episode Dish and Dishonesty, a series that will go on to win Best to Comedy Series in the 1988 BAFTAs.
00:00:34
Speaker
but it's a big moment for the podcast today. We're making history with our very first Prime Minister
Portraying William Pitt the Younger
00:00:39
Speaker
guest. Joining us is none other than William Pitt the Younger, or as he's going by today, Simon Osborne.
00:00:46
Speaker
Welcome, Simon. Thank you for having me. Actually, before we get going, do you want to be known as, well, asked as Simon or Mr Prime Minister? whatever you like.
00:01:01
Speaker
Simon, can you tell our listeners about what you do and your role as William Pitt, the younger in Blackadder?
00:01:09
Speaker
um Well, they the the real life William Pitt was actually 24 when he became prime minister. And I was 17. It was just a week after my 17th birthday. so But he's still always, you know, he's still our youngest prime minister ever.
00:01:24
Speaker
So yeah um they were just exaggerating it slightly more for comedy purposes. I mean, he was a hugely successful prime minister. he um He turned around from the disaster of the previous prime minister with the losing of the American colonies, built up the Royal Navy to be the the biggest Navy in the world, making sure that we were safe and wouldn't wouldn't lose wars again. and of course, that's what in the end led us to defeating Napoleon.
00:01:54
Speaker
or the evil dictator, Napoleon Bonaparte, as I call it. Hearing that is uncanny, I have to say that. Well, I guess thinking about that role, can you tell us how did you land the role?
Acting Journey and Role Acquisition
00:02:08
Speaker
What was your story to get into that position?
00:02:11
Speaker
Um... Well, I'm from Cornwall. And in the 1970s, they were filming things in my village in Pendine. Poldark was one of them.
00:02:22
Speaker
And I used to go and watch them filming. And there was a boy acting in it. And my father spoke to his father about how did he get into Because I was always interested in in doing things like acting. And they said, we've got an agent in London.
00:02:35
Speaker
She's called Sylvia Young. who recently passed away, unfortunately, give her a course. My father did. went up, had an interview. And um I was then on the agency books. But living in Cornwall, of course, going for auditions in London, it had to be if there was a good chance of me getting the role.
00:02:55
Speaker
So after a few times of going up to London on the overnight train, either my parents or with my grandmother, um I eventually landed a role with Thames TV. And how old were you at this point? um Well, I was filming during my 11th birthday.
00:03:11
Speaker
Wow. It was a lead and guy called Matthew Guinness played um my uncle in it. It wasn't until about a year after we finished filming that I realised he was Alec Guinness' son.
00:03:25
Speaker
had Had I known at the time, would have gotten sign some Star Wars things, but probably just what I didn't know. The following year, I got another role um for the BBC this time, a thing called A Church in the Village, set in the 1600s.
00:03:41
Speaker
And off the back of that, the agency, Sylvia Young, had started at a stage school. And she invited me to go to the stage school. So we moved to London when I was 12. Then it was much easier to go to auditions. So I had a few things. had a grain chill for three years.
00:03:56
Speaker
um And then i left there when I was 16. And then as I left school, again, at 16, I was asked, what sort of thing would you like to be in?
00:04:07
Speaker
So I said, um comedy, ah preferably for the BBC, something like Blackadder. And then what comes knocking on your door? Maybe like nine, 10 months later, get, oh, you've got an audition for Blackadder.
00:04:22
Speaker
So I turned up, met Mandy Fletcher at BBC, read some of the scripts. I kept all the scripts and they they changed a lot. I was going to ask if there were any changes made during the process of the actual filming of that episode. The original, what I read at the audition, which must've been maybe in May 87, I,
00:04:44
Speaker
I'll be filmed in June. um It was... Look at it now. it bears no resemblance at all. Really? So what what are the changes there, Simon? ah Dialogue mainly. Some scenes taken out entirely. Some added in.
00:05:01
Speaker
um My opening speech has... There's no resemblance at all. And that the script I've got um is for that scene is it's the old one from day one.
00:05:14
Speaker
And it's my handwriting beside it with the new what we actually broadcast. And I remember Ben Elton leading over me, dictating what he'd just written and saying, right, you can cross out that old one. you're saying this now. And they're hurriedly writing down in pencil. and You compare the two, they're not alike at all.
00:05:32
Speaker
But anyway, so she liked me about a week. No, but maybe maybe like five days later, I had a phone call or... My parents had a phone call. I was out and stage door, the theater i was working at the Miserable. said, oh, you had a phone call. Blackadder, you're in it, apparently.
00:05:50
Speaker
Said
Political Elements and Filming Atmosphere
00:05:51
Speaker
the stage door man. So that's how I found out. but Later then, I had a phone call from my agent saying that John Lloyd, the producer, wants to meet me.
00:06:02
Speaker
So I went back to the BBC, and I walked in and he said, to ah, right, okay, well, I've seen you now. You can stay and ask me some questions if you'd like, or you can go, I'm happy with you. I said, well, you haven't even spoken to me. And he said, well, no, i usually a director and producer will pick someone for Blackadder and Mandy did it on her own. But he said, as soon as you walked in, I could see you look right, you sound right, and I can tell you're a real actor. And I said, well how?
00:06:28
Speaker
So when you've come in. He said, I can see yeah your boots are falling apart. um I was wearing a bow tie, but it's like hanging off. um and It wasn't a clip-on, was it?
00:06:38
Speaker
No, no, no. um and And carrying a ah sort of scruffy carrier bag with all my stuff in it. And he said, had you walked in looking immaculate and carrying a briefcase, I would have thought you're someone pretending to be an actor.
00:06:50
Speaker
He said, because you've walked in like that, um you are an actor. and that and And that was it. So I definitely definitely had the part there. Since we're on the topic of John Lloyd, actually earlier in the week we spoke to Jem Roberts about Blackadder and he said in addition to dishonesty, that episode is far more black political and actually strays away from what's normally Blackadder just focusing on comedy. Did you feel this in the production? And to be fair, Jem Roberts kind of attributed that to John Lloyd being involved in that episode?
00:07:24
Speaker
um Possibly. i mean, John was yeah he was very involved. i I mean, I assume that he was involved in all of them in the same amount, but he had a lot of say in what was kept in, what was taken out, what should be changed.
00:07:41
Speaker
um I mean, Mandy was directing, but he still had a lot of input. um It was, I mean, we filmed... about two days after the 87 election.
00:07:55
Speaker
Yeah. ah So some things were added in. the Can you remember any of those which were added in at that time? Um... I think they altered slightly the election scene.
00:08:10
Speaker
um ah I did have some lines in it before, then they took it away and gave it to Pitt the even younger, and they wrote whole new scene for me. The scene that was but but my end scene i walk in and...
00:08:25
Speaker
and say he's beaten, I've got my votes anyway, and all this sort of stuff. And I've written a poem and and all that. That was added in later on. And I think some of John Hanna's lines were changed. And of course, he was a real, um not John Hanna, Vincent Hanna. He was a real reporter, political reporter at the time. So for him, not being an actor, he did very well.
00:08:51
Speaker
and So so did it did it feel very political when you, as you say, just off the 87 election, when you were acting, did it feel very political when you're getting a coffee and things like that? Or was it very calm?
00:09:04
Speaker
I think Tony um spoke a lot about politics. He was a Labour supporter. So, and I was like, they just lost. um No one else did hugely. Yeah.
00:09:19
Speaker
I think actual actual politics didn't really come up very much. But no, I mean, there was small discussions, maybe, mainly instigated by Tony, but um there was no real... We're trying to make fun of the government at the time or anything like that. But I think it it it sort of helped, I think, with filming it just after a major election and... ah it was more interesting for the audience and they could add things. You've got to remember that when you're filming front of an audience, you have um a warmup man. So for us, it was Ben Elton.
00:09:54
Speaker
see He was a co-writer. So, and he was doing all the the jokes in between the things being filmed. So he, of course, was always political.
00:10:05
Speaker
I mean, his catchphrase at time was a little bit of politics, bit controversial, little bit of politics. Uh, so it was always anyway. And Vincent Hanna, uh, grabbed the mic at one point and said a few things about what he thought about the current government and things like that. And how was it being as such a young actor at that time, only 17, how was it being in the presence of figures such as Rowan Atkinson, Tony Robinson and Hugh Lowry?
00:10:28
Speaker
Um,
Experiences with the Blackadder Cast
00:10:29
Speaker
well, I'd always been a big fan of Blackadder anyway, which is why when I left school, know, they said, what do you want to do And I said, Blackadder, um, So if I just walked into the BBC rehearsal room on my own, it would have been maybe a bit terrifying with them all there already. But I got in the lift at the rehearsal rooms in Acton, BBC rehearsal rooms, with this figure walking the same time as me, but the same height as me, wearing biker leathers and a crash helmet.
00:10:56
Speaker
He removed the helmet. I could see it was Tony Robinson. He looked at me and he said, uh, Pitt, the younger. And I said, uh, yes, uh, I'm Simon. shook his hand and he said, I'm Tony. And I said, yes, I know who you are. Uh, and he laughed. And then of course walking in together then to rehearsal rooms, he could then introduce me to everyone else, but everyone was friendly. And, um, no one, uh, felt that, you know, even the guest, uh, actors for that episode, I don't think anyone was made to feel that they weren't part of, of one thing. and i never felt that, um,
00:11:29
Speaker
There were the three regulars and well four because of Penn and Atkinson Wood regulars. And then there's everyone else. It was everyone was one thing. who And I guess from your experience from the cast, who do you think in the Blackadder cast would have been the best at actual politics?
00:11:46
Speaker
I think probably Rowan, because he's always quite level headed and doesn't have outbursts. um I think Tony probably would have wanted to at the time, but I don't i think he may have there'd be lot more outbursts if it had been a bit been Tony.
00:12:03
Speaker
um If things went wrong, there's always lots of swearing coming from his direction. I guess getting back to the episode at hand, oh I'm going to ask you a few questions here. So actors often bring their own unique process to each role, I feel. So I guess you've got Daniel Day-Lewis, for instance, is famous for his method acting.
00:12:22
Speaker
And I wanted to ask you a series of questions to find out how much of William Pitt you see in yourself. So at the start, our introduction to William Pitt is in the House of Commons, where he identifies three enemies of state. The first, i mean I mean, do you want to do it?
00:12:37
Speaker
Do you? No, no, no. Let's see if you get it right. the fuck I mean, I'm paraphrasing here. But the first Napoleon Bonaparte, the second-year-old geography master, and finally the Prince of Wales.
00:12:49
Speaker
I was wondering, Simon, do you share Pitt's dislike for geography teachers? um Actually, slightly, yes. um Going to stage school, we did geography for my first term.
00:13:06
Speaker
And then the older class didn't pass their O levels as they were at the time. So they fired the geography teacher and didn't replace him. So we've never taught it.
00:13:18
Speaker
um I never had a geography master. No, but I do remember being at ordinary school for a year first. um And i was I was quite excited, I think, when i first went to secondary school to be learning about the world and all these different places. And then found out, well, it's not really. It's crop rotation and geology rather than geography that gets taught. So um i was very pleased going to stage school where the first thing I remember where we were made to do was to learn um all the English, Welsh, and Scottish counties and districts.
00:13:54
Speaker
And I thought, what well, this is now, this is real geography. And then we did that. And then, of course, the guy left and we never learnt it again. But I've taught myself geography. That's what it's come to.
00:14:05
Speaker
And yeah, and I think that you have to sort of teach yourself. If you're interested in a subject, you teach yourself. If you're not interested in a subject, then you can't be taught it.
00:14:18
Speaker
I guess you can. You're probably sounding like William Pitt the younger right now as well. Okay. Going up when William Pitt finishes his speech to the comments, he tells the house it is now time for the opposition to test him on his Latin vocab.
00:14:32
Speaker
i was wondering, Simon, do you have any Latin? No, no. Almost, almost none at all. We definitely didn't learn that at stage school.
00:14:44
Speaker
I did the history degree as an adult, but I, um I, did learn a little bit of like Latin and Greek, but only a literally like a few words because of um part of the one of the courses we did was to translate tomb writing things like that. So you got to learn a few a few words because they kept coming up, but like son of or or whatever, or conqueror of. um But that's a while ago now, so I've i've forgotten most of that.
00:15:16
Speaker
So maybe you've got to join Pitt in your practicing on your Latin vocab, maybe. Yes, maybe. And so later in the episode, Pitt expresses a particular dislike for blackcurrant jelly.
00:15:28
Speaker
Do you share the same dislike, Simon? Or is it no just Pitt? Everyone, so many people assume I do. Like it's that was min and saying that not the that. The funny thing is, it just it just says in the script, when he says black current, just says like E-U-E-U-G-G-G-H-H, like the sound. And that's that i found that the hardest thing to do in the entire episode. It wasn't until John Lloyd said, imagine Jennifer Saunders doing it.
00:16:00
Speaker
What sound would she make? and i And I came up with what I did. and he said, yes, that's it. So that that's how it stayed. I don't know if Jennifer Saunders would have made that sound at Blackcurrant Jelly, but just that's just what I thought at the time.
00:16:15
Speaker
So what was some of the inspiration for these lines? Would it just be off the cuff? They would change a line just instantly? Or would it be a lot more thought process? Well, um the old rehearsal rooms the BBC had were sort of like... the built on in floors, but like a great big room to rehearse in where they're all like taped out for different rooms or sets, how it would be on the floor. And a small office next to it, a different room where the writers are would would have an office. Now, most things I've done, the writer would come in and say a few things. You don't see them again, but um the writers, Ben ah and Richard Curtis, they they were in an office next to rehearsal room and they were all day, every day changing things. Partly it's because they knew um how Tony would play things. They knew how Roman would play things and Hugh.
00:17:07
Speaker
They don't know the guest actors. So they have to get to know you to then write something that suits you. So they would change things every day. It was mainly my things, I think, changed quite a lot because as they got to know me, they thought I could do more of one thing, less of another, maybe.
00:17:25
Speaker
um But we were also given a lot of room to change things ourselves. You're allowed to try things out a lot more than anything else I've i've ever done.
Filming Process and Challenges
00:17:34
Speaker
So how long is the process of filming?
00:17:38
Speaker
The actual filming is about three hours. Wow. Because you have an audience. No, you have an audience, so you have to get it done by a certain time. um But they ah rehearse for five days.
00:17:52
Speaker
um Then on the filming day, you're there at the studios quite early. and you're going through the whole thing, and they're checking the lighting, the the costumes. and So you're doing over and over again. Then um the audience come in at, say, half six. You start at seven. By 10 o'clock, you have to finish.
00:18:10
Speaker
um So yeah, there's a half-hour episode. Three hours of filming is not a long time, really. So most most things are done in one take, unless there's really big, obvious mistakes.
00:18:21
Speaker
But the there's a scene with in Parliament where i pop up, and say to to Baldrick, are you a new bug? Come along and vote with me. That was a very late added one.
00:18:37
Speaker
I see. Do you have any personal favorites of scenes that you really enjoyed acting? um
00:18:45
Speaker
Well, all of them, but I think the ah the the scene with um Hugh and Rowan in the Prince of Wales, the main room he uses, uh, that was a lot of fun because with those two. And that's not, that was very hard to do because, uh, the, the, the stupid faces, Hugh would just a slight change of his face and he looks really, um, stupid.
00:19:12
Speaker
Um, and, uh, how he can just change just from himself to being this really stupid prince with, uh, just a slight look, slight changes. Look. So, and his reactions are always,
00:19:26
Speaker
Great. so But Rowan was the person who you had to watch out for, really. But that's the one scene I did that wasn't in done in one take. So I walked in ah and we do a couple of lines and they say, cut. So we did it again.
00:19:40
Speaker
and they said, cut. um And then maybe one more time, they said, cut. And because the audience, you don't want them getting fed up with the same scene. So Hugh went, oh, what, what, what? What is it?
00:19:54
Speaker
and uh someone said oh it's it's none of you it's a camera problem and he said well i know it's none of us we're all professionals um so that sort lights into music and mood again and they sorted out the camera problem and we went and did it in one take quite a long scene to do in one take um and i i i know when i watch it that i'm about to laugh so many times um So I'm doing sort of an angry face, but I'm only doing it because I have to do something with my my face because I'm to burst out laughing. Was that common when you were filming though? You just burst out belly laughing?
00:20:29
Speaker
A a little bit. I've always done it a little bit in rehearsals. um The problem is if you get to doing it in a scene in rehearsals and it becomes a habit, you almost can't stop yourself.
00:20:47
Speaker
if But um but so no one did. Rowan would try and make people laugh, though. If he wasn't on camera... He'd try and get you. Yeah, they hit all the time. And he's quite a quiet quiet person.
00:21:01
Speaker
um But on the filming day, he was ah he was the one to watch out for, pulling faces and stuff. I guess thinking about coming out of that acting job, are you able to take any props or costumes from Blackadder the 3rd that you still have today? ah No.
00:21:18
Speaker
um It's all BBC wardrobe and and everything. and the I think they they hired the waistcoat, but they had it altered. The waistcoat I wore was um actually a Georgian waistcoat.
00:21:34
Speaker
I think I'm the only one to actually wear a Georgian waistcoat in in the series. But they cut it to fit me and um put it back together again, which I was quite at the time. But this is like 300 years old. What are you doing? um And that's one of the times but my last scene with Rowan, where we're waiting for the cues at the action.
00:21:55
Speaker
And I'm one side door, here's the other. He opened the door and said, oh, Simon, that's a real waistcoat, isn't it? said, mine's just made up with adders and things on it. we're having a conversation about waistcoats.
00:22:07
Speaker
And he could hear them about to say action. and And he went, on oh, you must be Simon, in a funny voice, and and slammed the door then open and opened it and started acting the scene, hoping I would laugh, but I didn't because i I'm expecting something.
00:22:23
Speaker
So was Rowan the biggest practical joker on set, would you say? Definitely, yeah. so But he's not on camera pulling faces, and no one can pull faces like Rowan Atkinson can. So ah the regulars be aware of it, but I learned quite quickly to can almost not look at him at times.
00:22:43
Speaker
but i mean, when he says Pitt the toddler, that always... i don't but It just sounded to me and um so if you sortly Surely, Pitt the glint in the milkman's eye is funnier. No, it is clever.
00:22:55
Speaker
But Pitt the toddler was was the one that kept getting me because it just sounded so ridiculous. people People quote things at me. I'm always hearing Pussy with knobs on.
00:23:09
Speaker
um You lower middle class yobbo. ah And some people know the the speech probably better than I do. The parliamentary speech.
00:23:20
Speaker
People get things wrong as well, though. They always think Hugh's saying, what is a rubber button? But it's actually rubber. um like I think the subtitles get that wrong as well.
00:23:32
Speaker
Yes. think they get it And what's the other thing? they going Oh, um Banana Breath Scrigshanks is the geography master. And people mishear that as well.
00:23:43
Speaker
There is, but if you you look at the script, in the book of scripts, um on the night, I made a mistake and I kept it in. Really, what was that? was supposed to say, I'm most shamefully of all astonishing £59,000 on socks. But I said, I'm most astonishingly of all an astonishing.
00:24:03
Speaker
So I said, i've said astonishing twice. And they said, and and and oh just I went, oh, no, I made a mistake. And they said, yeah, we'll just list it upstairs, and because upstairs where the director and producer is. And they said, no, they like it. But but but Tom, I made a mistake.
00:24:17
Speaker
So they know, but they're going to carry on because they don't care. And I think it's because you're limited on time. um It's a long speech to get right anyway. So they want to do it in one take because it's, I think they they thought it was funny for the audience to see me suddenly appear on when they say, ah Mr. William Pitt, the new prime minister, and I stand up and and I'm young.
00:24:42
Speaker
um they They didn't want that impact to be lost. So they just kept it in. And the script books now have that written down as though it was meant to be, but it
Impact and Historical Accuracy Discussion
00:24:52
Speaker
wasn't. So yeah overall, how do you look back on your experience of playing William Pitt, the younger? And how do you think it's stayed with you your whole life?
00:25:01
Speaker
um Well, it was a massive, massive thing. to do and I think well that's that's when I started getting recognised in the street and things like that people go that's Pitt the Younger and I thought um i was wearing a wig and stockings and stuff how can you recognise me you know I still have to show you I still have this it's not it's not the wig Wow.
00:25:27
Speaker
But it's a George story. And of course, it's the same colour as my beard now. Although people still refer to me as Pitt the Younger at times. I'm 55, so I'm not... Well, you've grown into the role now.
00:25:41
Speaker
Yeah. su um But I i give a lot of, as well as acting, I give historical talks and things now. So I always start off with you might know me from. and Yeah, that's a good, is it's a good icebreaker that i have to say.
00:25:54
Speaker
i was going to say how much of the producers actually based off real historical facts and was that something which was another consideration in the writing? Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. um They,
00:26:06
Speaker
um about a week before filming I went to according to BBC wardrobe and makeup department and they had cartoons from the time of the real Pitt the Younger and that's what they based the costume, makeup and and wigs and everything on um so so that i they they had to get as much right as possible the set designers and everything nothing could be out of place, none of them saying that a candlestick can't be wrong you know um
00:26:36
Speaker
and Pitt and the Prince did fall out um they were enemies the Prince backed the opposition in Parliament all the time ah Pitt was friends with the King instead and to get back at the Prince he blocked the Regency for pretty much all the time he was in power so although I'm battling the Prince Regent really it's the Prince of Wales he wasn't the Regent at the time that Pitt was there because Pitt stopped it from happening do you know why that change was made? or
00:27:09
Speaker
I think it's just um they weren't trying to set it in a particular year. It was um the Georgian period, the period where you've got Prince George, whether he's Regent or Prince of Wales or whatever, it doesn't matter because they're all sort of the times are sort of mixed up.
00:27:26
Speaker
um You've got also got some people meeting that... they wouldn't have been about the same age. They would have been either very elderly and the other one very young type thing like that. so um But it's it's people of the time without being specific.
00:27:41
Speaker
So I think i but the Prince Regent sounds much funnier than saying Prince of Wales, I think. Yeah, it does. In that respect. um So I think it is is right to to say that. But of course, in my in my speech to the pond, call him the Prince of Wales.
00:27:57
Speaker
So whether that was on purpose or not, I don't know. But thank you for
Episode Conclusion
00:28:02
Speaker
joining me tonight, Simon. It's been a really interesting conversation. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
00:28:08
Speaker
Wherever and however you are tuning in for this episode of the After Dark series, thank you for listening to today's episode. If you found yourself interested in our discussion and want to hear more, stay tuned for more episodes.
00:28:21
Speaker
We're available YouTube and all your streaming apps at Observations Podcast. Thank you very much. Thank you.