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Free Weekly Episode - Pogba Doping SHOCK, Juventus For Sale?, Spalletti’s Debut Disaster, Azzurri’s Attacking Crisis, Does Serie A Have Too Many Foreigners?, Donnarumma Decline, Italy vs Ukraine Preview & Much More (Ep. 358)
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From Paul Pogba doping bombshell, Exor and Agnelli family potentially selling Juventus, horrible debut for Luciano Spalletti as Azzurri coach, Italy's almost 15 year long attacking crisis, why should Gianluigi Donnarumma leave PSG, why so few Italian players in the Serie A to previewing the Euro 2024 qualifier against Ukraine at the San Siro and much, much more as Nima and Carlo break down all the main talking points from a jam-packed weekend in Italian football.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Italian football podcast. Hello everybody and welcome to the Italian football podcast. I'm Carlo Garganese joined as always by Nima Tavalli. On today's show we will be reviewing Italy's Euro 2024 qualifier against North Macedonia from Saturday.
Italy's Euro 2024 Qualifier Challenges
00:00:22
Speaker
A disastrous debut for Luciano Spoletti a 1-1 draw which puts Italy's Euro
00:00:29
Speaker
2024 qualification hopes in some jeopardy. We will analyse what went wrong. There's been a big debate on the state of Italy's attack. Why can't Italy produce top attackers anymore? That was so apparent on Saturday. There's also been a debate on the lack of Italians who are playing in Serie A and the lack of youngsters, young Italians playing in Serie A.
00:00:55
Speaker
What changes should be made for the must-win game against Ukraine on Tuesday if they have no other alternative they have to win? Is Gigi Donnarumma in decline after his big mistake against Macedonia? And should he even be dropped? There's been a lot of calls for
00:01:11
Speaker
for Tottenham goalkeeper Vicario to take his place.
Juventus Sale Rumors and Financial Insights
00:01:16
Speaker
We'll also, away from the international scene, discuss a bombshell story this morning in Il Giornale, which reports that Juventus have been put up for sale, the Aniele family ready to sell the club after 100 years. This has been denied by the Juventus' holding company XOR, but is there anything behind the story? We'll talk about that.
00:01:38
Speaker
I would say to everyone, do stay till the end for one of the all-time great prem faces of the week. You will love the one. We've got a few this week. So for all our first-time listeners, this is our free weekly episode, which we do every Monday, reviewing the weekend's Serie A action and all the biggest talking points in Italian football. If you want to support the Italian football podcast and receive all of our content that we do throughout the week,
00:02:02
Speaker
including a weekly Q&A episode every Tuesday where we answer all of the questions from our Patreons, plus the weekly Thursday midweek review show, plus interviews, post-match reaction and much, much more. Then go to patreon.com slash CIFP and become a subscriber for just $2.99 a month plus VAT.
00:02:18
Speaker
You can also sign up to be a paid subscriber on Spotify now. We'll provide the link in the description. Same price, same terms. For all of you that do listen on Spotify, Apple and iTunes podcasts, we'd really appreciate it. Give us a five-star rating. Give us a follow and a like. We're on YouTube as well. This all really helps us to grow and do more quality content.
00:02:42
Speaker
So let's get into today's show. But first, a word from our sponsor. Making your own podcast is fun, but the production of podcasts can also be challenging if you don't have the right software. With Zencaster, the whole process is quick and straightforward.
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Speaker
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Paul Pogba's Doping Scandal
00:03:43
Speaker
It's time to share your story.
00:03:47
Speaker
So about an hour after we recorded this podcast, the full podcast, there was the news, an absolute earthquake of Paul Pogba failing a doping test. So what we did is Nimr and I decided to hop back on and record
00:04:05
Speaker
10, 15 minutes on Pogba and the news. And we've added it to the start of the podcast. Originally, we started talking about Juventus, the news of Juventus and the Aenele family potentially selling Juventus. So if everything is a little bit disjointed, that is why. But it's such a huge story that we had to talk about it. So what has actually happened is Ansa,
00:04:34
Speaker
announced this afternoon that Pogba had shown elevated levels of testosterone in his blood test. He was tested after the opening day win away at Udenezi, 3-0 win of Juventus on August the 20th. Pogba didn't actually play in that game. He was on the bench for the whole game, but he was one of those that was
00:04:57
Speaker
chosen by controllers to randomly chosen to undergo a test. So those tests have come back, and they have found elevated levels of testosterone in his blood test. So just so everyone's clear, Nimr, can you just explain what actually happens now with Pogba? Well, different sports usually have a different process. But usually what happens is that
00:05:28
Speaker
The player can request a counter analysis to check that there were no errors in the sample. And I think within the next seven days, a B sample will be analyzed by the same laboratory that tested the A sample. And then if the positive test is confirmed, then that player is automatically suspended awaiting a verdict.
00:05:51
Speaker
We are yet to see anything from Juventus, an official statement. I expect that to come as soon as possible. If the test is confirmed positive,
00:06:06
Speaker
know, he will be suspended. And obviously, there'll be legal proceedings where he will have to explain how he got testosterone, which is the substance we're talking about, which is an anabolic steroid. I mean, that's what it is. So that's what we know now at least. So yeah, it's quite the
00:06:29
Speaker
And if the B sample comes back positive, then he risks a ban of up to four years. Yeah, I mean, more even. I mean, it depends, doesn't it? I mean, we've seen people get lifetime bans. I mean, from what I understand, this is his first
00:06:52
Speaker
So yeah, I mean I'm not I don't want to say too much because I've not we're not exactly had time to look everything up here. But yeah, I mean several. Yeah, this is breaking news. This is breaking news. I don't want to say too much. I just want to you know, because.
00:07:08
Speaker
I want to wait. I want to do my research and do my reading properly. Yeah, we haven't had a response from Juventus. We haven't had a response from Pogba. You know, it depends what he, you know, how he would, if the B sample comes back, how he would then fight it, assuming that he fights it and he doesn't admit that he took the sample. I mean, those, that Dopers rarely do admit it. So how does he fight it? How does he present his case? You know, does he say that, you know, it was taken unknowingly?
00:07:36
Speaker
can it be down to a medical issue? Some players, some people with medical issues have to take drugs and that can result in drugs in the system. So we're at the very early stage now to see what could happen. But just so we understand, the only thing we know is that it's testosterone.
00:07:57
Speaker
That's what they, and I mean, what are they? So, anabolic steroids are drugs that athletes take to boost their strength and add muscle. These drugs are also called anabolic androgenic steroids. They are made to work like a hormone that the body makes called testosterone. And testosterone has two main effects on the body, helps build muscle and causes features such as facial hair and a deeper voice.
00:08:23
Speaker
And the anabolic steroids that is used by athletes, they're often forms of testosterone made in a lab. We don't know how anything more than it's testosterone that it is. We don't know how it's gotten into his body. We don't know who, how, whether the... I mean, we don't know anything. So it's very, very, very, very preliminary, other than him having tested positive. An A sample has been tested positive for testosterone.
00:08:50
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, if confirmed, you know, and he gets this band, I mean, it's the end of his top level career. Let's be honest about that. I mean, some would say that his top level career is already over, but it would definitely confirm it. It would be the final nail in the coffin of what has been a
00:09:14
Speaker
A disastrous return to Juventus. I mean, it's been a total disaster from day one. The number of injuries, eight different injuries, he's missed over 50 games, well more than 50 games. He started one match since returning to Juventus, which he returned, remember, in the summer of 2022 on a free transfer from Manchester United. He's paid 214 minutes of football, zero goals, just the one assist, which came in the Europa League.
00:09:38
Speaker
Um,
Italy's Struggles with Attacking Talent
00:09:39
Speaker
so, you know, and you look at the number of injuries he get, he gets, he got another one in the, in the last game. Um, and I mean, he is, let's, let's, let me be clear. I mean, this is something that actually could be good for you. And to say it in a horrible way, because they will have grounds to, to sack poker, you know, there are, but you've got to be careful before we get to that, because if he's tested positive,
00:10:05
Speaker
No, but you see, that depends. How did he get it into his body? They have to find out how did it enter his body. Potentially. Potentially, this is another thing. If it was something the club doctor prescribed, then Juventus don't have grounds to sack him. Then usually, the contracts are written that way. But again, I want to wait. I want to be very, very
00:10:32
Speaker
If it's without the club's knowledge, if it's not via something the club doctor prescribed or approved of, and he's had this in his body, then yes, potentially Juventus could tear up his contract. We have the case with Adrian Mutu, if we remember a few years later that Chelsea sued him,
00:10:55
Speaker
from breach of contract, that could possibly happen. I mean, there's so many possibilities that could happen. Yeah, it depends. Absolutely. Now you're spot on. It depends how, you know, what the decision is in terms of how it got into a system and what can be proved and not proved. But Juventus potentially, like you said, if it wasn't prescribed by the Juventus doctor or proven to be, you know, accidental, in which case if it's proven to be accidental, then he's not going to get suspended anyway.
00:11:26
Speaker
And I mean, it depends. I mean, accidental. They're very stringent with these things. And like I said, it's we will discuss this more at length and we have more information. But right now we have to discuss this because it's breaking news. It literally is. And this is where we are. But we will definitely. Well, all I'm saying is at this stage is potentially, you know, if you know, potentially Juventus could have grounds to to to release Pogba. And if that was to happen,
00:11:53
Speaker
It could be a good thing for Juventus because the salary, he's got three years left on his salary, he's on astronomical wages, I think it's 24 million net over three years, so however much that is gross, 40 million or whatever it is. Yeah, something like that, yeah.
00:12:11
Speaker
And Juventus have already been in talks to try and extend this contract to amortise the cost more. And spread it over more years. Yeah, spread it over more years. So, I mean, this could end up being a good thing for Juventus, but obviously, you know, it's not good for the club's image. It's terrible for Pogba's image. It puts a bit of a black mark on his career, you know, if the B sample comes, you know, if this all ends up being, you know,
00:12:36
Speaker
true, then, you know, it's not good. I think we're at the beginning of a very long and legal process here. But the next thing to wait for is, of course, you've entered a statement, Pogba statement. And of course, then the B sample. And of course, Pogba will be given a chance to make his defense.
00:13:04
Speaker
We're in for another legal circus featuring Juventus. Fantastic, can't wait. That's all I've got to say about that.
00:13:18
Speaker
Okay, then. Right. Okay. Well, this is what we did. We did this after the end of our podcast, which we recorded before. So now you're going to listen to the start of the original podcast. So we'll leave that with you guys. Enjoy the rest of the show.
00:13:39
Speaker
Okay, right, before we talk about Italy, I want to start with a breaking story this morning in Il Gionale, a bombshell of a story, maybe a sensational story, time will tell, in Il Gionale, which states, reports that the Aenele family have decided to sell Juventus, that the club is in crisis with the judicial and legal problems,
00:14:05
Speaker
and with the balance sheet economically which is devastated between losses and debts and it's now been urged by the family
00:14:14
Speaker
after an accounting cleanup to put the club on the market. Now, this story has immediately been denied by XOR. We've put out a short statement saying that it's completely without foundation. It's not true at all. So, you know, that is what we would expect, of course. But Nima, what do you make of all this?
00:14:42
Speaker
I can't remember which episode it was, but I remember us talking about this, that maybe with Andrea Niel leaving and the Elkan wing taking over, they're not interested, and given the amount of money that they've had to put in, X or cash injections,
00:15:03
Speaker
Time changes. Times change, rather. There is no need for the annually annexors to own Juventus anymore before it served a kind of social currency purpose. But now it doesn't. It just costs them. And the recent events of the last year and a half has definitely frustrated
00:15:29
Speaker
that side of the family and EXO's shareholders are anything but happy about the cash injections they've had to do. So I remember us talking, I remember vividly saying that, look, I think that might actually happen. It could happen. I still think we're a long way away from that. And by that, I mean, I still think we're a couple of years away from the Aniali family or from EXO selling Juve.
00:15:57
Speaker
But I wouldn't be surprised if it happens. In fact, I'm starting to feel that...
00:16:06
Speaker
more than not, more likely than not, we will see a Juventus without the EXO, the Elkan and the Elle family within five, six years, maybe. I think it's likelier than not to put it like that. Doesn't mean I'm saying it's going to happen. We should clarify the same journalists that run this story. I think it's Tony Damasch.
00:16:31
Speaker
Tony Damaschelli, I think his name is. And Osvaldo de Paulini. And Osvaldo de Paulini. Now one of these two, I'm not sure which one it is, I think it's the former, reported exactly the same story in 2006 that Juventus were for sale. So, you know, that obviously didn't happen. So take that with a pinch of salt. I read this story and I thought it was very,
00:16:59
Speaker
It was very decisive of it's going to happen. I don't think so. I think that these discussions are being had. I think they are being had in a much more serious way than at any point prior in Juventus' history. Because Italian football is such a structural mess, as well as financially, structurally, and all of the things that we speak about quite a bit.
00:17:30
Speaker
that XOR are just a multinational company now. This isn't like it was back in the day when La Vocato owned it or ran it. It's a completely new time. It's a completely different time. And I think Andre Agnelli, the shameful way that he was pushed out or had to resign,
00:17:56
Speaker
and completely give up all of his political capital in not just Italian football, but international football as well. I think XOR, together with the cash injections in the hundreds of millions that they did,
00:18:13
Speaker
which their shareholders were not happy to do. I mean, let's remember football is not an Italian football, at least. You don't make money off of it. Most clubs don't. So, for example, this is just a giant black hole that sucks money.
00:18:31
Speaker
and doesn't give anything back. And that's the thing with Italian football as well, the direction is going in. And we spoke about this at depth on the last show, about the TV deals plummeting every year, TV ratings plummeting. I remember Agnelli and getting mocked for it. And Agnelli, for all of his mistakes, for all of his mistakes that he's made, he's got so many things wrong in his last few years at Juventus. He was also very forward thinking. He talked about the Middle East being the next
00:19:00
Speaker
He talked about the drop in interest among the younger generation in football.
00:19:11
Speaker
you know, how difficult it is to make money from football. And he also, you know, if there's any club or any person that tried to modernize Italian football in many ways, but all the other mistakes that were made, it was Aniele, what was Aniele? It was Aniele driving that at Juventus, you know. Well, Aurelio De Laurentiis was also talking about things like that. But the problem is that
00:19:34
Speaker
No, but I mean, if you look at the things that are modern, that are actually modern, Juventus are the most modern club in Italian football, by quite a distance, you know, starting from the stadium, being there first with the stadium, to all those kinds of things. And Yellie was fighting a lone battle on many of these things, not everything, but you know, because he made mistakes, of course he did.
00:19:53
Speaker
big, huge mistakes. And we've seen the results of that. But, you know, I think that the bottom line with all of this is that Italian football was in this situation where, you know, we complain about it every every week on the part and we went big on it. And in the last show about, you know, about Italian football is never is never going to modernize and and and we're so far behind the rest of the world. And for that reason, what hope is that if you've enters, you know, if if Exo and the Aniele family
00:20:21
Speaker
or the Elkan brought you already don't care as you said John Elkan isn't he doesn't care he doesn't have a clue about football either he's just uh you know um so you know John isn't his name Johan Johan John Elkan I think it's Johan Elkan no John Elkan
00:20:42
Speaker
Is it John? I thought it was Johan Elkan. I've always thought it was Johan Elkan because he's got like this kind of German
00:20:57
Speaker
Germanic, I mean they do have, they're not straight up Italian as well, they also have like Germanic roots, don't they? I think Swiss or Austrian. His dad is Alan Elkan who is I think French-Jewish, I think. No, okay. If I'm mistaken, yeah, not mistaken. Yeah, so I mean I think that if they're weighing things up, what is the future of Italian football? And from a financial point of view,
00:21:26
Speaker
you know, I think the financial value of having new events is then yeah, I can understand why this would be a consideration doesn't mean I'm saying they're going to sell the club in the years, but I do see that as if you're making a business decision, you know, where, what direction is Italian football going in and football in general? I mean, I think it's something you consider, isn't it?
00:21:50
Speaker
I completely understand them and I think this was inevitable and I think that because I don't see Italian football changing structurally changing anytime soon. So therefore I think that the investment is going to be similar to the
00:22:07
Speaker
redbird kind of groups, if you know what I mean. Those kinds of entrepreneurs, they come in and modernize it that way. Anyone hoping for Arabic saviours, sorry, they're not going to do that. There's no need for them to do that. They're too busy with their own projects. Also, they're not stupid. They see everything. Everyone sees the problems.
00:22:36
Speaker
And people are thinking, well, why should I invest in that? It's like the Newcastle, it's like PIF said. Amanda Stavely said it best. We were considering Inter and AC, but we decided against it because Italian football is structurally a mess. That's just a fact. People can get triggered as all they want about that. That is not hyperbole. To me, that's just an objective fact.
00:23:02
Speaker
And as long as that's true, I mean...
00:23:07
Speaker
The, you know, nothing changes. This is how it's going to be. And the problem with this is that when you have the Calcho is back thing to me is just that add as funny and silly as it was. This is how deluded that people running Italian football are. They really think that because they had three teams of the final of all European competitions for the first time ever, that Calcho is back. Literally, that's what they think. And that to me,
00:23:37
Speaker
shows a level of delusion. And they're conquering North America. That's again, that's rooted in the delusion. They are deluded because they don't live in reality. They don't understand how far behind they are. And when you have people that don't even understand the problem, how are you going to solve it? So I think this is classic Italian problems in the sense that in Italy, things have to go straight to hell.
00:24:06
Speaker
like pear-shaped on an almost biblical scale for things to be able to build up again. I think that with the Elkan and the Aniele family leaving Juve, you have to find a buyer first as well. They're not going to sell Juve for cheap, just like Suning are not going to sell Inter for cheap. With all due respect to Milan,
00:24:33
Speaker
Elliot kind of still owns Milan. Essentially, Redbird bought Milan with the loan from Elliot that needs to be repaid. You've not really seen a sale there, even though legally you have. There's been a transfer of a deed and blah, blah, blah. I'm sure by the end of it, Jerry Cardinale and all these guys will deliver the money to
00:24:54
Speaker
to sell it, to buy it fully on. I think it's just one of those payment plan things. But that's Milan. Okay. So it's not going to be easy for you. Or I think I think that Nimr, I think that the Super League was a was a desperate final move. One that was executed, one that was executed terribly as we discussed. This was the Super League. It was out of good intentions, I think from Aniele that it was a desperate move to make
00:25:20
Speaker
But from Juventus' point of view, and to a lesser extent the other teams in Serie A that went along with it, but from the way that Juventus was seen it was a desperate move to make the
00:25:32
Speaker
Juventus sportingly and economically viable because right now it isn't and we've seen the mess the Juventus are in obviously a lot of those with their own mistakes but you know the balance sheet as this report said is a mess it's improved a bit but then what happened last season with Juventus now being thrown out of Europe has now kicked them in the butt again so it's a mess the club isn't a mess so I think that that is the reason why
00:26:02
Speaker
However much truth is in this story, I think there definitely is some smoke there. I think.
00:26:12
Speaker
I think you're right. I think you're right. 100%. Let's move to the Italy national team then. Well, not on to better news. Some more bad news. So the debut of Luciano Spelletti on the Italy bench, his first game after replacing Roberto Mangini, who of course resigned last month, it was a crucial game in North Macedonia, which Italy really had to win.
00:26:38
Speaker
and they could only manage a 1-1 draw. They took the lead just after half time from Chiro in Marbella and then a free kick in the close in 10 minutes got a share of the points for Macedonia. Again, Italy failed to beat Macedonia after the humiliation of being knocked out of the World Cup qualifiers and the World Cup playoff last year. So, NIMA,
00:27:08
Speaker
This was a terrible performance and a terrible result, wasn't it? It certainly was. The performance is one that I find more worrying, especially in the attacking third. I thought Italy's weaknesses were ruthlessly exposed.
00:27:29
Speaker
Um, and they were a little bit unlucky, of course, defensively as well. Although you could say you could really kind of argue they were kind of lucky because they, you know, North Macedonia, Mr. Sitter, didn't they, in the first half. And I'd say a draw was probably in the, in the fair. That was the fairest result. I mean, um, I felt Italy were toothless. Um, I don't blame.
00:27:59
Speaker
I don't blame one player or one like, so this is Chiroi Mobula's fault, or this is Zakani's fault, and none of them were, neither of them were very, very good. I think Barilla was pretty much the only one that wasn't of any decent quality, if we're perfectly honest. But relevant DiMarco for me, the others that made it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, for me, Barilla was a clear man of the match. But for Italy, that is. But yeah, I'm hearing a lot of
00:28:28
Speaker
Oh, the pitch was this and, um, and it was, it was a Bismol pitch. It looked like a potato farm. And I think that, you know, but you know, it's, it's unacceptable though. They play on a pitch. This is what I mean. I mean, also, also from, uh, from a point of view, you know, uh, players can get injured, you know?
00:28:51
Speaker
And that worries me. It really does. No, it was. It was is the one of the worst pictures of it. It looked like gang wasteland behind my dad's shop. That's how bad it is. We have this plot of land behind which no one ever goes on. And honestly, that is a case for stories. That is kept in better condition. So what?
00:29:13
Speaker
Your dad has a cake shop, it's a pasticheria and it's really good, but behind it there's gang wasteland. There's just a bit of land behind it which no one has ever ventured to since 1991. It's like Terry Waits allotment.
00:29:34
Speaker
And that grass is, honestly, is better than the... I mean, it was terrible, the pitch. I mean... No, the pitch was terrible. And in this day and age, I think it's really pathetic that we can't, like, that Ioiifa and FIFA can't, like, go in and somehow financially build, you know, these countries and, you know, get it sorted because it's, come on, you know?
00:30:00
Speaker
But again, the pitch was crap for both teams. And Italy just didn't look prepared. That's what I think more than anything. I didn't feel that Italy were mentally prepared, but I don't feel they were tactically prepared. I think Spaletti needs more time.
00:30:20
Speaker
And to be honest, everything happened really quickly before he was appointed, and then all of a sudden he had to pull out a squad, you know, name a squad, and so on and so forth. But no, it wasn't a good squad. It wasn't a good performance. I think Spaletti has his work cut out for him. I think everything we said on Friday, I don't want to toot our own horn, but I'm incredibly proud of what we did, our preview.
00:30:42
Speaker
going into it. I thought our tactical analysis of everything, well, basically was true. It's what come to pass. And also the, the, the, the, the, the, the emissions, Skamaka and Udoji, they would have, they would have definitely helped Italy in this game. Um, I think Skamaka for sure, having someone who can hold the ball up, Chirimabula doesn't hold the ball up. And that's not his role. That's not who he is.
00:31:09
Speaker
And I know he scored, and I'm not blaming him, but, you know, again, Cristante Zarigista, you know, back three, Gianluca Mancini got injured, Zagnolo, I mean, it's just, it was everything that went wrong. The attack was just abysmal. We'll come on to the attacks. We've got a segment where we're just going to look at the attack and this crisis.
00:31:30
Speaker
this decade-long, or longer than a decade now, crisis that we've had in Italy's had in producing attackers. We'll come onto that in a bit. But, I mean, we didn't create many chances. I think Sonali hit the post in the first half when he went through. There was a few kind of chances that could have been chances, but didn't come to pass for a bad final ball in the first 15-20 minutes, when DiMarco was very dangerous in those first 20 minutes. There was Mancini header off a corner from a DiMarco corner that went just wide.
00:31:59
Speaker
And that's about it. After Immobiliz Go, I can't pick a single chance Italy had after Immobiliz Go. No, not a single one. But the mid-field, and you said about the analysis that we did on Friday, I did point out that one of my concerns was
00:32:17
Speaker
who's going to be the Zelinski player in the Spoletti system? Because the Spoletti system morphs from a 4-3-3 to a 4-2-3-1 in the same game, in the same moves. And I don't see Barella or Tonali as being that kind of player. They're Metsalas, basically.
00:32:36
Speaker
So who was going to be the link? And we saw that there was no connection between the midfield and the attack, the natural fluid connection between the midfield and the attack. So who is that Zielinski play going to be? We'll talk about who the change is going to be. There is some talk that Pasina could come in. But I think that was an issue. I would love to see Pasina come in now. Yeah, he's a possibility. Also, like you said there with Christante, there was no build up from the six.
00:33:05
Speaker
again, as I said on Friday, for all the golden generation Italy have had in central midfielders, right now, if we're assuming that Verratti and Giorginio's Italy careers are over, or they certainly passed their best anyway, then Italy don't actually have a ready-made
00:33:25
Speaker
register right now. No, they don't. They really don't. They don't have anyone who's the natural. They weren't from two fantastic ones to not having anyone, which is so quintessentially Italian football. Everything's so extreme, isn't it? But yeah, right now there isn't. And that's what I'm saying. Georgina Orvarati, who do you pick? I probably go with
00:33:50
Speaker
has to be variety. Yeah, but I mean, he's going to cut up. So yeah, I mean, it's not, it's not ideal. But you know, I think that, you know, without laboring on the point, I think that there was there was some some structural issues there. But more but there was certainly quality, quality issues. But I do think that Spoletti, I don't think Spoletti had a great performance, but himself are the things that he could the changes he can make, of course,
00:34:15
Speaker
you know, he didn't have time for the squad. So that's one thing altogether. But the squad selections, we were critical of Schemaka and Udoji should have been in, should have been in the squads and both could have been handy here. Like you said, the starting zakani I didn't, I didn't get. I mean, I don't think he's, I mean, for me, it's clear he's not an Italy national level player. But then I would say that about a lot of vast majority of Italy's attacking options. But certainly not zakani. And then why he stayed on the field for so long, I think until like the 83rd minute, when he was having such a bad
00:34:45
Speaker
irrelevant game, he was doing nothing. So that was a mistake. Bringing on Zagnolo, I mean he's nowhere near match fit, Zagnolo. And he gave away the free kick for the goal. He did one of the worst, I don't know if it was a shot, a pass, a cross, I don't know what it was in the second half when he like
00:35:06
Speaker
he kind of up-toe poked it sort of into rosette. It was the most abysmal thing I've ever seen. Zagnolo is very frustrating when he plays like he played on Saturday because I don't think I've seen a player that makes so many unforced errors, like so many unforced errors where there's no one around him.
00:35:26
Speaker
and he'll just give the ball away or he'll overrun it or we'll miss control it like under no pressure at all and he's very very he's just way too inconsistent in that way for all this talent but most of all we're talking about the dodgy being left out in Emma
00:35:42
Speaker
He brings on in Biraghi for the final 10 minutes when it's at 1-0 to try and win the game as your left back and Biraghi just proceeds to basically hit cross after cross into the full back, straight out the full back.
00:35:59
Speaker
What the hell is going on there? This is what he had on the bench. Biragi shouldn't be on this team. I just don't think he's good enough. As much as a fantastic free-kick taker he is, and he is a fantastic free-kick taker, but that's about it. His crosses are abysmal. I remember when he came to Inter during Konta's first season, I think he was, and I was very happy for him to come because
00:36:24
Speaker
He was a player with a background at Inter's youth teams in Interista, he stood in the Kurban, and I was like, well, that's good for the club and the culture of the club and the team to have someone like that so close to the club and the colours. He really wanted him to do well, and his weaknesses were so ruthlessly exposed that season.
00:36:49
Speaker
positionally, his timing, his read of the game, his crosses are... He makes Candreja look unbelievable when it comes to cross accuracy.
00:37:03
Speaker
He's not good at that, especially against collector defences. This is the simple way of analysing it. Baraghi is just nowhere near international quality. No, he's not. He's really not. It's just as simple as that. You don't need to go into any depth with Baraghi. He's just not good enough. He's embarrassed. No, he's really not. I mean, he's at the old.
00:37:24
Speaker
No, yes, that's another thing. It's this kind of, you know, why are we resuscitating the Biragi thing again? I mean, it's just, I mean, hopefully he's understood. But I want to talk about, I really, really want to talk about Donaruma, because now we're talking
00:37:42
Speaker
He has stagnated in his development. I think the worst thing he could have done was to go to PSG. He doesn't fit in there, and he hasn't improved.
00:37:56
Speaker
that he shouldn't have let that go in. I'm sorry. No, that's a huge error. If you let in a free kick on the side that you're protecting, then it's a goalkeeping error. If the free kick taker curls it over the wall and puts it on the wall side, then assuming it's in the corner or the top corner, sometimes you just have to
00:38:19
Speaker
clap your hands, take your hat off and say, well done. But if you get beaten at the side that the goalkeeper is protecting, I don't care if it's 150 miles an hour in the top corner, it's a goalkeeper mistake. And so that's a huge error. It's a massive error. And it was, I mean, it's his fault that we, okay, Sanjolo, stupid to give away the free kit, but ultimately,
00:38:43
Speaker
it's uh it's a safe donner rumor has to be made it's not just that it's it's also the fact that i just don't think he's stagnant i think he stagnated in his development i don't think you could say that he's improved but it's not been it's no no he's definitely not improved he's definitely not improved i mean what i was saying even if you want to make the argument that he has improved he has but it's not been by much and that's the thing that the the trajectory he was on he's deviated from that
00:39:08
Speaker
Before we recorded this podcast, I actually, I went to our friends, Robin Baerner, who's one of the top kind of French football journalists and experts. And I asked him back down the room, I said, you know, what's he been like in his two years at PSG? Would you say he's done well? Has he lived up to the hype and everything? And he says, no, he hasn't. He says he hasn't been bad, but he hasn't really been good either. He said he would give him a rating of five out of 10.
00:39:36
Speaker
I think the French grade a little bit lower than say the English or the Italians do. Well the English for sure, the English grades in football are ridiculous, everyone gets a 10. Assuming someone has a good game, they're, I mean it's just so ridiculous and when they're bad they're all given ones. It's like, there's no... Yeah, well Don Aruma was bang in the middle at five and he, yeah, I mean from what I've seen him at PSG, I mean he, I mean I thought he was unlucky with
00:40:03
Speaker
with that one when when pierce you got that baram a tree where you got this is the thing about but you know he he yeah he hasn't improved and and i think that
00:40:15
Speaker
certainly his kicking is for the longer term. I think his kicking is becoming a concern because we know that this is the way that modern football is going now that pretty much all goalkeepers need to be good with their feet. We can see it's a clear trend and
00:40:34
Speaker
you know if he's going to get clumsy with the ball he looks so clumsy well he is he can't use his feet his feet were about size 20 feet i barely got control of his feet he's like the bfg you know he really looks i was going to say he looks like it he looks like he he looks it doesn't look good and i'm sure you can improve that in training if you work on it and
00:40:58
Speaker
I'm not saying that you can develop a technical ability, but I'm saying you can improve so it doesn't look like that. Well, I think he has improved a bit. I mean, do you remember when he was 16-17? I mean, he could barely kick the ball. He was like, you know, you get those Sunday league goalkeepers where the fullback takes the goal kicks because the goalkeeper can't kick the ball. He was like that, basically. But I think some of the fullbacks did take some goal kicks from Milan.
00:41:26
Speaker
Yeah, they do. The thing is, though, I think two things. I think he has to leave PSG as soon as possible. And secondly, I think that it would do him a world of good if given the form Vikkari was in right now for Tottenham and how good he is with his feet right now against Ukraine, I'd probably play Vikkari.
00:41:48
Speaker
I'd probably play Bucario. Yeah, because Italy have to get a result. They just have to. And also, sometimes getting benched is good for you. And if you can't take that the right way as a professional, well, then you're not a top player. Simple as that. All top players have been benched at one point in their career, and they've taken it the right way. And if Donaruma can't take it the right way,
00:42:11
Speaker
then he's not a top player. It's a tough one. I mean, I don't know if I would, I don't know if I would drop him for this game. I feel like we need to retain some stability and some experience because we've already lost Bonucci, Verratti, Giorginio. We're coming off a negative result. Do we want to go in there and throw in another, another, another player? Just for this game, I would especially, especially if you've got, here's the problem. You've got Christanta and Donnarumma doing your build up.
00:42:39
Speaker
Like, seriously, you need to have someone who's good enough. The caro is decent with his feet. He is. He is decent with his feet. He's not amazing, but he's not pretty good. No, no, no. But we're not talking about amazing. I'm not saying that he's onana in terms of the passing. I mean, onana is unbelievable when it comes to the build up phase.
00:42:59
Speaker
It's like playing a pillar on goal at some time, some of the vision, the timing. I agree that he has to leave PSG, though, Nimmer. I think that club is a circus. It's not good for the stability of anyone. But to be honest with you, I feel like if Luis Enrique is still there at the start of next season, I don't think Donnerim will be there. I think Enrique will look to move Donnerim around because we know Enrique. He wants his goalkeeper to be good with his feet. It's a crucial part of his game. The rumors, which were all denied that he wanted him out already this summer,
00:43:30
Speaker
I do think that there's possibly, again, I think there's probably some smoke there. No, I think he needs to leave. And I think he would be open to leaving. And if he wants to leave, where does he go? Well, who can afford him in Italy? Can anyone afford him? Yeah. But I mean, I've always thought that he's got Juve written all over him. To me, anyway, unless we see this kind of mad PSG coming with Don Aruma plus ridiculous amounts of cash for a mignon.
00:43:59
Speaker
Maybe Saudi Arabia. If Donald Obama goes to Saudi Arabia, then it would depress me because that would be the end of his career at the top level.
00:44:15
Speaker
with all due respect, because it's one thing to, you know, for outfield players, but a goalkeeper standing there in Saudi not doing anything for the next couple of years. No, no. We'll see. We'll see. Let's move on, though, from one crisis to another, to the crisis in attack. And because this crisis, we've spoken about it before, but it was so clear in this game that, I mean,
00:44:45
Speaker
Italy just didn't have anything in attack, nothing at all. But this is a crisis that has been going on for over a decade now, probably the best part of 15 years almost, since the kind of del Piero
00:45:02
Speaker
Totti, Inzagi, the Katani generation were in their mid-30s, they got into their mid-30s and kind of around about Euro 2008 kind of time. Since then... It has been a problem. There's been nothing, there's nothing being produced at all. I don't understand it, I don't understand it. Italy has for 67 years produced world-class goalkeepers, central defenders and strikers.
00:45:30
Speaker
And now goalkeepers are fine, but central defenders and strikers, well, except for Bastoni, who else is there in central defense? And if we look up front,
00:45:48
Speaker
it's very well look at the current look at the current crop of attackers for this match after the quieso withdrawal we had zacagni, immorbele, politano as the starting trio i mean that's with all due respect that's a conference league standard attack zacagni, europaleg at best i mean politano i like enapoli but i feel that anybody that plays alongside osseman and kovarec scalia is going to automatically be 50 better than they are and that's how i feel with politano and i like the guy i enjoy watching him he's got a bit of pace he's nippy but
00:46:18
Speaker
his level is raised massively by playing next to two phenomenal you know so cool and we saw that we saw that he was terrible in this game and then you look at the others in the squad we've got Rettaghi, Raspadori, Nionto, Zaniolo and now Orcelini has now been called up to replace Politana now who do these players play for?
00:46:37
Speaker
None of these players play for big teams. And when I say big teams, I mean elite teams. I mean, Latzou and Napoli, you'll get some... No, but Latzou and Napoli are big teams. They're not elite teams. You know, Genoa. Well, Napoli are genuinely reigning champions. But other than Napoli, it's Genoa leads them to championship. Genoa leads a championship team. We've got a player from the championship playing for us. And again, I like you until I believe in his potential, if he can have the right development now. Then we have a player that's Galatasaray slash Aston Villa. We have a player at Bologna,
00:47:07
Speaker
or Bari. Or Salini doesn't even start for Bologna. He's not even a starter for Bologna. He's back up. He's back up right winger since Undoy and the other guy, the Swedish lad came in. Karlsson. He doesn't say he doesn't even start for, he's not even a starter for Bologna right now. He's been called up and according to the latest reports,
00:47:30
Speaker
may start against in a muscle in Ukraine game. Now this is the level of crisis, you know, then the other alternatives, we're looking at Grefo, who's played a lot in the last year or so, who plays for Freiburg, even Shkimaka, who we all want to play and who we both believe is, you know, got the biggest potential of everyone. He plays for Atalanta. Again, these are not elite teams. And this says it all, because if your attackers are playing for this team, that tells you how big the problem is. And
00:47:58
Speaker
You know, this is like I said, this has been going on for 15 years, the crop from the last 10 to 15 years, you can go through all of them. I mean, look at look at you in 2016, we had Edea and Pele. Let's see an Opelle playing as our front choice attack. That was all down. I mean, that was just down to a miracle from Antonio Conte.
00:48:16
Speaker
I will die on this hill. That is his greatest managerial feat to get that team as far as he did and to beat Spain the way they did. It was just unbelievable. But then look at us, the World Cup 2018 playoff to qualify against Sweden. Manolo Gabiadini was our starting striker for that.
00:48:35
Speaker
The World Cup that we just failed to qualify last year in the playoff. Who comes on? Who did we bring on as a substitute to try and rescue the game? Zhao Pedro from Caliari. In your 30s. Yeah, like 30 or 31 years old coming on. I mean, this is a crisis. Let that sink in. Yeah, exactly. This is not hyperbolic to call it a 15-year-old crisis. That's what it is. It is a 15-year-old crisis.
00:49:05
Speaker
It has been going on for long. I mean, okay, the 90s were ridiculous. Vialli, Mancini, Bajo, del Piero, Inzaghi, Totti, Quiesa, Ravanelli, Signori, Montela, Zola, the lowercase players were Dicagno and, you know,
00:49:23
Speaker
Del Vecchio would be a superstar in this team. Del Vecchio would be a star. To put it into perspective, this is insane.
00:49:47
Speaker
I don't understand what's going on because it's been so long now. It has been far too long. It can't be put down to just a bad signal. It's been 15 years now. There's always ebbs and flows with Eddie Nation. Yes, but it's been more than a decade, Carlo. More than a decade. But it has been 15 years because, like I said, those players I mentioned at the start, like in Zaggy and Del Pier, they were still pretty good into their mid-30s. So they kind of still hung around, didn't they?
00:50:15
Speaker
You know, until Dean Atale was still really good. Dean Atale was unbelievable and he bloomed in his 30s. But again, that was just, you know, he belonged to that kind of older generation, didn't he? Yeah. But this is not good enough. And I look at the under 19, under 20, under 21s. It's the same problem. Yeah, there's no one. We're not producing anyone. Those teams don't have any attackers either. You know, Sebastiano Esposito, Andrea Pinamonti.
00:50:46
Speaker
Jesus, that's depressing. No, I mean, the under 21s, the reason they went out, I mean, I even predicted it before. Italy was the last one. It's probably the last time quality, but there were other issues. Did you watch under 21s draw nil, nil against Latvia? They drew nil, nil. They couldn't even break down Latvia the day before on Friday.
00:51:09
Speaker
first qualifier of the new under 21 team. It drew 0-0 at Latvia. Exactly the same problem. Nothing can attack. Latvia put 10 men behind the ball. Our attack, we couldn't break them down at all. It's the same problem.
00:51:27
Speaker
This is endemic and you know, what is the cause of it? I mean, you know, I guess part of it is a wider problem of talent production, which will come on to this a separate segment I want to talk about. But I think changes to the game have hindered us. I think I was going to say the number 10 disappearing has definitely.
00:51:43
Speaker
been affected. Well, the classic number 10, you no longer can have the tracortista slash fantasista jogging around on the pitch. It's a faster game, more athletic, and then that doesn't necessarily suit it. Also, the death of the penalty box striker as well. That's another position that has died, the kind of
00:52:05
Speaker
people in Zagy, Ged, Muller, Gary Lineker, kind of striker. Yeah, Fox in the box. Fox in the box. Yeah, exactly. Now that has disappeared and the number nine now needs to be able to, you know, be more all rounded and be able to play. The thing is, it's not just an Italian problem. We do have a crisis in number nine, top number nines in world football in a way that I can't remember ever in my lifetime. I mean, aside from Harry Kane, Erling Hall and Robert Lewandowski,
00:52:34
Speaker
those are the best number nines are all in their 30s aren't they 30 or over there's very few in their 20s i mean how many how many top number nines in your 20s can you name and i think that is a that is a that is the effect
00:52:50
Speaker
a direct effect of the tikitaka explosion, the false none. To an extent, yeah. I think it's that and the fact that we don't create specialist footballers anymore. There's no, we don't get specialist positions anymore. It's all, everyone has to be complete. God, I can't wait for this era to be over, the Guardiola era to die and literally I will come, I will be the guy with the, you know, that jiff of the dancing. We don't want to do that anymore. The guys from the Ghana,
00:53:16
Speaker
who who who bury some are dancing when they bury the guy like that's me burying tikitaka it has been the most depressing era in football ever where where football is this like ridiculous you know abstract art form and everyone's supposed to be good at everything and you end up having no specialists anymore and no one's really good at anything it's just oh i can't stand it yeah tight with footballers isn't it
00:53:40
Speaker
It's getting worse then. We've now got inverted fullbacks as well. Vomit. Vomit. No, I think that's affected because I think that, and I've said this before, I think that one of the reasons that Italy was so successful for so long is number one, we always had the best defences and the fence is dead now also because of...
00:54:01
Speaker
changes to the game. Well, you're not allowed to defend anymore. Yeah, you're not allowed to. Rules don't let you defend anymore. The offside rule, the everything, you know, so that that affects us. But also, because we were smarter, Italians, the way that we still have the best managers in the world, because because we are the best thinkers in the game. And but on the football pitch as well, we were the best, we were the smartest, you know, the football, the being able to get away with little things here and there. But also,
00:54:27
Speaker
you know, if you want to translate that into forwards, kind of forwards being smart. And you know, that includes penalty box strikers and number 10 penalty box strikers, you know, in Zaki, in Zaki was a genius. He's one of the people saying that he was not a good footballer or idiots. No, in Zaki, in Zaki for me is one of the most intelligent footballers in football. He was so smart. I'd probably have a pattern of like his movement pattern, his timing, knowing when to do what it was.
00:54:55
Speaker
Yeah, his read of the game, his anticipation, his everything. So those kind of players, you know, those kind of players have died. And even someone like Imobile, as much as we criticise him, like if he was around 30 years ago, it would be much better than... As I've said, this part and others, when I've done deep dives on Imobile, I think he's unlucky. He was born in the wrong era.
00:55:19
Speaker
If you'd been born in an era before that, you'd have much more respect. Football's changed. The number nine that he is is not where football is right now. I do think there is a huge element of that.
00:55:33
Speaker
No, there is a problem. And I think that Spoletti needs to do what he does when he comes in. He needs to just basically phase out people. He needs to this immobular being captain nonsense needs to stop. He needs to build around Skamaka. To be fair to Spoletti, he did come out and say that, you know, the
00:55:50
Speaker
the tradition of the most capped player automatically being the captain needs to change. It should just be the one that's the leader. I missed that. That's music to my ears. He did say that, to be fair. So fair play. Again, like I said on Friday, it was out of his hands. So I don't blame him for that, but it is. Yeah. But this is good that he comes out and says that. That means he's going to change. That means
00:56:11
Speaker
Well, if he's got the power to, I don't think he said it was out of his hands. It wasn't his position to make. So, but, you know, I think that I think that there's these changes to the game have affected.
Impact of Serie A on Italian Talent Development
00:56:20
Speaker
And I think obviously the lack of infrastructure, the Italian football, everything that we criticize about how badly it's mismanaged from top to bottom, you know, that affects the talent pool. You know, if the club game is run badly,
00:56:32
Speaker
then that has a knock-on effect. One of the reasons why England, and we're going to talk about the number of lack of Italians that are playing in Serie A in a minute, but one of the things about England, about the Premier League, is that even though their numbers are pretty similar to Italy in terms of the number of English players playing in the Premier League,
00:56:51
Speaker
They're producing much better players and much more and far more youngsters in England because the infrastructure, the academies, everything from top to bottom, the nutrition, the best doctors, the
00:57:07
Speaker
the stadiums, everything, you know, the training grounds, everything is allowing these players to develop and develop into better players. And obviously that, I mean, you speak to anyone, I remember reading an interview from Fabio Cannavaro because he's coached outside of Italy. He said that, you know, I would never would have realized this if I hadn't coached outside of Italy, but the infrastructure in Italy for producing and developing players and training players,
00:57:37
Speaker
compared to what he's seen, even in China, which is not a footballing country. He says it's just Italy's light years behind. And that, I think, obviously, is an issue in producing players. And obviously, the attacker is a certain type of player. Why it's only attackers we're not producing while we're producing not some infielders, I mean, I don't have the exact answer to that.
00:58:04
Speaker
It's a combination of everything you've met. I think it's a combination of all of the above.
00:58:09
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, so let's move on to this foreigner debate because this has become a debate. Sky Sport were talking about it at the weekend. I tweeted it out yesterday, some of their figures, about the number of Italians that are playing in Serie A, which is one of the lowest in Europe for minutes played. And I'll read it out just so that everybody can see. So these are the number of foreigners in Serie A squads.
00:58:38
Speaker
Udenezer, 30 of their 35 big squad are foreign. Lecce, 22 of 30 are foreign. Milan, 21 of 28. Torino, 21 of 26. Genoa, 21 of 28. Selenitana, 21 of 27. Verona, 21 of 32. Bologna, 18 of 26. Fosinone,
00:59:00
Speaker
18 of 31, Napoli, Roma and Atalanta, all 17 of 26 are foreign, Inter 16 of 25, Lazio, Fiorentina and Sasualo 16 of 28, Caliary 14 of 30, Juve 12 of 24, Empoli 12 of 28, Monza 10 of 28, so only 14.
00:59:20
Speaker
have more than 50% of their squad are Italian. And it's even worse if you look at the start in 11, so I'll quickly go through that. Milan have one Italian that starts, Calabria.
00:59:34
Speaker
Napoli 2 or 3 on average, Inter 3 or 4 on average, Juventus the same 3 or 4, Roma the same 3 or 4, Genoa 2 or 3, one of them is naturalised, Retigui, Caliurin, Torino 3 on average, Udenezi 1 or 2 and one of them is a goalkeeper, Sassuola 3, one of them a goalkeeper, Lecce 2 and Bologna
00:59:54
Speaker
if we're saying that Orsolini is no longer a starter, as he hasn't been this season, then Polonia is zero. So those are the stats. Just want to make it clear before I ask your view, Nima, this isn't about blaming foreigners, right? So before anybody gets twisted, that we're all, you know, Nigel Farage. No, I'm not Saul Rovini. Yeah, Saul Rovini or Brinson Ford. This is about, this is just
01:00:19
Speaker
This is just about a basic logic that if you don't have many Italians playing football, then you're going to struggle to produce. Here's the thing. I think it's a little bit more difficult and convoluted, if you will, than that. I think the previous point you made was, well, actually, in the Premier League, the English players are similar to this in terms of how many they're playing. The difference is that the English players actually play.
01:00:45
Speaker
and they're producing better players due to infrastructure, due to everything that you mentioned, the way that they view the game, it's more modern.
01:00:53
Speaker
and the high intensity and all that stuff. The homegrown rule, I think, is a brilliant idea with the Premier League, which makes sure that money stays in the country, meaning that it doesn't leave the league. Basically, by having that homegrown rule, they have basically not only inflated the value of English players, but it also means that the money stays in England in the Premier League, in the English ecosystem, not just the Premier League, the championship or whatever.
01:01:23
Speaker
because they're such a high sought after asset, the players, which is really, really smart. But then it's also everything else we discussed in the previous segment. I do think that there is a problem
01:01:38
Speaker
with the number of foreigners in the seria, given those numbers, it's not just the number that's who's starting. That is more relevant to me. Not the number of foreigners, but how many are starting. Milan 1, Napoli 2 or 3, Inter 3 or 4, Juva 3 or 4, Roma 3 or 4. I mean, when you go down to Bologna and Lece and these clubs, and you're talking one or two,
01:02:01
Speaker
And Empoli, I mean, Empoli is where most Italians start. That's a huge, huge problem. And the gap between the Serie B, where it's mostly Italian, and the Serie R, that is a much more interesting debate. And the only conclusion I draw is the quality of the Italian players being produced are not good enough. If they were, they would play.
01:02:28
Speaker
and that's again tying back to our previous point that now the shit has really hit the fan.
01:02:40
Speaker
get triggered and they look at the end result and they just simplistically go, well, Italy are not producing enough players. That's why Milan have only got one Italian, you know, otherwise they would, you know, why should Milan have to, I've seen a lot of Milan fans getting really triggered over this debate, you know. Well, why should Milan go out and buy an Italian just to help the Italy national team if they're not good enough? We want to buy, you know,
01:03:03
Speaker
So I think we've got to look at the beginning, we've got to look at the start, the beginning of the problem rather than the end of the problem, because this is the outcome of all these issues.
01:03:14
Speaker
You know, I do, though, think that youngsters absolutely are not given enough of a chance in Italy. And that ends in these numbers because of that. You know, Italy this summer won the Euro under 19s and they got to the final of the under 20 World Cup. They should have done better in the under 21s. They certainly had enough good players to do better than they did. Now, how many of these guys are playing in Serie A now?
01:03:41
Speaker
Have a look at the under-19 winners, have a look at the under-20 World Cup. How many of those players are playing for Serie A teams now? That's the biggest difference between England and the Serie A is exactly that. The pathway isn't there. I think what a team should do is a homegrown. I think the homegrown rule should be
01:04:01
Speaker
is something Italy should go on. I mean, that would raise the value and profile of Italian players. There's no issue with signing foreigners because they enhance the league and the players can learn from the players. But when you get an issue, when are under 19's and under 20's who are as good as many of these players that are brought in are not getting chances, then that obviously is a problem. And the pathway just isn't there. I mean, Nionto talked about it, about how he had to move away from
01:04:31
Speaker
from Italy, from Inter, in order to get a chance because he knew he wasn't going to get a chance either at Inter or at another club. He would have gone down to the Serie Achi and he'd have had to work his way up from Serie Achi where the level was just not good enough.
01:04:47
Speaker
I just remember that interview he did that triggered you to the point. Well, you see, that's absolute. But that is actually absolutely the issue. This is it. This is why people like Allegri are a problem for Italian people, because this is their mentality. This is what the culture needs to change. You don't go down to Celiaci, you know, so people like Nianto had to move out of the country in order to in order to work their way up because to find a pathway.
01:05:12
Speaker
to all of this was to bring it down to what this is our legacy spot. You know what you're doing now. But you know, I think that I think it's I don't think it's right. I mean, look at Milan. If I'm going to if I'm going to criticize Milan, right, they're back up.
01:05:29
Speaker
their backup for Giroud was Colombo. Both of us like, I mean, I think we see this clear potential there. Of course, he's nowhere near the finished article. He's an unpolished diamond, but there is potential there. Now Milan, if they were to loan out Colombo, let him get more game time. I'm fine with that. If the replacement they bring in is then someone
01:05:53
Speaker
Well, you say that, but I just see Luca Jovic calling a hat-trick in the Derby this weekend because it's just totally going to happen. But they're bringing in a player that's been a complete flop for three years and they're getting rid of Colombo. So if they're foreigners that add value to the league, absolutely. But when I see someone like Weston McKenney taking the spot,
01:06:19
Speaker
of Fajoli, for example, you know, then I'm like, well, what is going on here? So I think that clubs would rather, Italian clubs would rather sign a cheap, unknown foreigner. Well, there are financial reasons for that as well, because of the, you know, the decreta crecitta, which was supposed to bring money to the country and, you know, invest, attract investors in capital.
01:06:42
Speaker
That's part of it as well. But yeah, no, I honestly think the homegrown rule would be a step forward. I think something similar to how the Premier League have pretty much, you know, in terms of that, you know, they demand
01:07:00
Speaker
that certain, if I'm not mistaken in the Premier League, they have this requirement that a certain share of your squad has to have to be homegrown players, don't they? Yeah, I'm not sure exactly. I know Champions League requires that, and that's where Italian teams have a huge problem. Yeah, but they just don't know. But listen, listen. Their third goalkeeper always has to be. Always has to be.
01:07:24
Speaker
No, basically, it's a maximum, from what I understand, 17, maximum of 17 non-homegrown players, and the squad size is maximum 25. I think that's where we are. Yeah.
01:07:45
Speaker
Well, that would be that would be a start. I think to be classified as homegrown, one has to be on an English team for at least three years before the age of 21.
01:07:57
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, something has to be done because, you know, I mean, La Liga, 83% of the players in La Liga are Spanish. In Liga, it's around 60%. And you've got to remember that Spain and France have far more foreigners, far more of their own players playing abroad. Italy, at least now, a few of the players are starting to go abroad more now. Some of our top players, I think that's more down to the league weakening. It's every hour weakening that we're seeing players like Tonali, you know, move abroad.
01:08:24
Speaker
Spain and France, especially, have so many of their players playing abroad. It's as much about being able to give... I mean, the Bundesliga, I mean, Germany are in crisis. Germany are in a similar crisis to Italy in terms of player position. They haven't been revolutionised things in the 2000s after the Euro 2000.
01:08:46
Speaker
Yeah. They have fallen off. I mean, they're in as much of a crisis as us. I mean, they've just sat their manager as well, actually, yesterday, didn't they? Hansy Flipp got this out. I mean, they are. And they used to see their strikers. They're even worse than ours. Yeah. I mean, Niklas Fühlkrugh or Fühlkrugh or whatever you said in the World Cup was just, you know, snaggle toothed, random guy they picked off a pub, it looked like.
01:09:07
Speaker
is bizarre. And we're talking about a country that has had Rudi Faller, Klinsmann, Miller, Ruminiger. The number of Germans playing in the Bundesliga has actually fallen a lot as well. But I mean, Spain, they have that place where the Spanish players can develop.
01:09:23
Speaker
France, Ligueur has a much larger number of French players playing in Ligueur, so they can develop there. If you look at the other top nations, Brazil and Argentina, their leagues are all of Brazilians and Argentinians. Now, that gives them the chance for all these young Brazilians and Argentines, even though most of them are very young, to play in their leagues at a reasonably good quality. It's not high, high quality, but it's a pretty good quality. And then they move to Europe, so they've got that chance to develop
01:09:50
Speaker
as teenagers or in their early 20s, then they moved to Europe. And in Italy, where do they play at a high senior level in order to get that chance to develop? We just don't have that place for them because Serie A, there's just over 70% of foreigners and hardly anyone's playing and starting.
01:10:11
Speaker
And then what? Serie B, the quality is so low. It's not like Serie B in the 90s. You know, that famous season that we always talk about. Remember, in the 90s. F.M. Berg and Battistuta and the Serie B. Yeah, but do you remember? In fact, I'm going to find it now while we're talking about it. So, the B off was playing for Ascoli. Yeah, I think it was a 1992, 1993 Serie C. Simone Inzaghi was in Piacenza. Filippo Inzaghi was in Piacenza, I think. It was crazy.
01:10:37
Speaker
Yeah, F.M. Bari and Bati's daughter were in 30 B for Fiorentina. Yeah, it's insane. Right. So let me find this. Yeah. So, so this will, this will show you how much the quality was back then of the Serie B. So 1992, 93 top scorers. No, it wasn't 92, 93. I think it was 93, 93, 94. Yeah. Cause it's when, after Fiorentina got relegated to the season. Yeah. Cause I remember Bati's daughter was
01:11:02
Speaker
Yeah, so look at these top scorers list. We've got Massimo Agostini, he was the top scorer, forget that here. And then we've got Oliver Beahoff, Gabriel Battistuta, Giuseppe Gaudarizi, who was a former Italy international, won the Scudetto with Verona. Agostini was good as well. Andrea Carnivale, again, former Italy international, Italian 90, won the Scudetto with Napoli, Enrico Chiesa. Then we've got Pippo Inzagi, Dario Hubna,
01:11:28
Speaker
Oh, Christian, Christian, Christian Vieri. I mean, this is, this is the Serie B top scorers list of 93, 94. I mean, so this is the, so Serie B is a very high quality. And I think that's another thing that's really good for England as well is the championship is of a very high level, very high level. I would say it's top 10 in Europe for, for quality of league. So, you know, obviously the number of English players in the championship is much, is much higher than in the Premier League. And that gives them a, again, that's a good breeding ground for the players to
01:11:56
Speaker
Yeah, but I'm sorry, but we're talking about like, Celia B. Do they even know how many teams are playing yet? No, I mean, I'm sorry. But like, this is this is what I mean. No, no. Brescia got reinstated. Brescia finally got reinstated. Yeah, Brescia got reinstated. Despite being relegated and robbing Fodja, robbing my Fodja of a place. I
Italy's Tactical Approach Against Ukraine
01:12:15
Speaker
have to say that. Well, this is what I mean. Like you have the dysfunction with three match four match days in, however many match days we're in now.
01:12:25
Speaker
You have an unnamed, like, look at the Suryaibit standings, okay? Literally go and look in them. There is, there's a, it literally says, you know, up until recently, it says, you know, team, you know, they inserted a team.
01:12:47
Speaker
No, the 20th team was TBD. That two games into the season. Seriously? What are we talking? What are we discussing here? I love that. I love that.
01:13:04
Speaker
Enough of that. I think we agree that there's a big big problem here I mean the thing is with the attack coming back to the attack though England put seven goals past Macedonia Seven goals that that shows you the kind of level that we're talking about and Italy struggled to create three chances in that game and that shows shows the gap in attacks and the ultimate result of that is
01:13:25
Speaker
You know, Italy qualification, automatic qualification is in jeopardy now. The game against Ukraine is an absolute must win. It's a must win because Italy have played three games. There's eight games to play in the group. Ukraine have played four games. Ukraine are three points above
01:13:43
Speaker
And Italy have to win. And Ukraine have already played England home and away, right? They're not going to drop any more points. They're not. So away from the Italy games, Ukraine have to play Macedonia at home and Malta. So they're going to win those two games. So if they win those two games, that means they go nine points ahead of Italy.
01:14:01
Speaker
Italy then will play Malta and Macedonia at home, so we would expect them to win the game. So that puts us back to three points behind Ukraine with the two home and away games against Ukraine. So in theory, Italy could win
01:14:18
Speaker
at home against Ukraine and draw the last game away at Ukraine and they'll win on better head-to-head than Ukraine. So in theory, they could do that. But the bottom line is, it's an absolute must win. No, no, they have to win this. They have to win. They have to take four from six points from Ukraine. It's as simple as that. There's basically no room for error now for it. And that's the problem is, can you trust this Italy team right now to make no errors? And that's the concerning thing, isn't it? The final point I want to make is,
01:14:48
Speaker
I was going to scroll back and maybe I'll do it if we don't get a result against Ukraine on Tuesday. I was going to scroll back and have a look at Italy's results in September, in the last, well, since forever, because I bet you it's probably a negative record. It's probably a negative record.
01:15:09
Speaker
Italy, in September, they always fail. And there's a simple reason for that. It's because Italians love their Ferragosto. And we have to start the season late because of bloody Ferragosto. We have to start the season at the end of August, or even in the past. We used to start it in September, back in the day, back in the 80s, the Serie A seasons used to start in the 80s. And as a result, we'd always, we'd play our September games completely undercooked, and we'd drop points. And
01:15:36
Speaker
know how many times you know when we haven't failed to qualify that it's usually been down partly down to chopping points in September. So yeah something maybe to think about but obviously nothing will be done. Right just before we finish off with Badger and Prem Face of the Week, what changes do we want to see for the for the Ukraine game in terms of personnel? I'll tell you who
01:16:02
Speaker
that the Italian media think will be the team. They think there's going to be five changes. Now, two of them are enforced because Politano and Mancini have pulled out with injury. Or Solini has been called up to the squad. So they think that either Zaniolo or Solini will replace Politano on the right wing. Scaldini will replace
01:16:24
Speaker
I know, it's the Preston, isn't it? Scalvini, Bologna Reserve, is the right-winger. Scalvini will replace that. Watch him score now. I can just see that. Listen, I'm more than happy to jinx him, more than happy to jinx him. No, it was so funny, because our good friend Patrick Kendrick, he was tweeting, saying, oh, what is Selena getting called up, and his biggest hater, Nima, and he tagged me, saying his biggest hater is like, I'm not his biggest hater, I just don't think he's good enough for each other. Because certain people said that he was going to be able to- It's better than he is, but yeah.
01:16:53
Speaker
Certain people have too much time on their hands. All I'm saying is if you have the time to go to the cinema and watch one and the same movie nine times, maybe you need to do something about your life and find better things to do with it. Anyway, move on. Films about destroying the world, yeah. That's right.
01:17:09
Speaker
So, Scovini is sort of mancini. Locatelli is expected to come in for Christansi, so they obviously don't give Italy more ball quality, but, you know, we've done to death about us not feeling that Locatelli is a set. No, but listen, if he's going to play Locatelli, look, this is the thing, Fratese Locatelli Barella
01:17:32
Speaker
What is he going to do with that game? They feel that Tonali could be dropped for this game and that Fratizzi or Pacino will come in. I kind of feel like Pacino would be a better fit for Spoletti's system of a 4-3-3 going into a 4-2-3-1. I feel like he might be a better fit. So who's going to be the Regista then?
01:17:52
Speaker
Jesus is going to be like a telly. I mean, that's obvious. Okay, so look at only there and then you put in Pacino. Parela will be right mid-sarla and then and then Fratesi or Fratesi is right mid-sarla and Parela goes left mid-sarla. I think it'll be Fratesi. It's the left mid-sarla.
01:18:10
Speaker
I'm tired of this, everyone like playing Barilla until he's like. You want to be rested for the dark? Yes, I do. Like I'm tired. Everyone just looks at Barilla like this, like, yeah, it's all right. He can, he can, you know, suck it up, Nicole, or you can, you know, you can get on with it. It's like you're going to burn him out.
01:18:28
Speaker
you know it's like i think that's happened quite a bit in the last two years already yeah and i don't like that it's it's like it's just because he doesn't complain and he just always gets on with it it's like the other the other the other position that that could be could change is and the left wing as the canyons not guarantee the starting spot it shouldn't be raspadori should be raspadorian oh god
01:18:52
Speaker
Yeah, look, if you're going to play Pacina, I wouldn't play Rasputin. What would you make any other changes? Would you know? I mean, if you're going to mobler, would you bring retigee in? I would start retigee in this game. Oh, I really would.
01:19:04
Speaker
I would do that. That means you're changing your entire front three. Yeah. This is just not good. It's just not good. How are we going to have any kind of fluency in the team for even changing two of the three attackers? It's just not good. I know it's necessary because they were terrible, but we're basically choosing between two bad options here.
01:19:29
Speaker
You know, whether we're talking individually or certainly collectively, this is not good. I think that they should build on our Rettigy and Skamaka. I've said that in the past and honestly, I think Skamaka Rettigy is who I'd build on. We need to find a way to win this game. I don't care how we do it. We need to find a way to win this game. And I'm just thinking, making all these changes is not ideal. Keeping the same team is not ideal. Like whatever we do,
01:19:50
Speaker
I'm worried. Just win. I don't care how it looks. Just win. The love of God. I don't care. Just win. Simple. And from now on, stop, you know, call up the best fit players. Skamaka, Udoji, like, you know, all that stuff.
01:20:06
Speaker
Well, he could have called up Scamaka. He still could have had the chance to call him up after Kiesa went out. He needed to have a winger. I mean, he's obviously going to take a winger for a winger and Scamaka's on a winger. No, but I'm talking about after Kiesa went out. Yeah, I know. He didn't call up anyone. He called up Orsolini to replace Pobletana. He still had the space available. He still could have called up Scamaka even as late as yesterday. And he did decide not to.
01:20:36
Speaker
Yeah, I don't agree with that. Okay, let's finish off with Bad Joe and Prince Base of the Week.
Miscellaneous Football News and Humor
01:20:43
Speaker
Do we have a Bad Joe? We do, we do. We have a Bad Joe. I saw one of the most beautiful goals I have ever seen in Liechtenstein, sorry, Luxembourg, I think it was, Bosnia played. Bosnia won that game.
01:21:04
Speaker
But the goal that, I think it was Luxembourg, let me just double check, I can't remember, I just remember seeing that goal and I was just completely blown away. It was, I'm looking now, it was Bosnia, I can't remember his name, I've written it down but I forgot it now. But it was one of the most, like that is how you shoot a volley. It's genuinely, yeah, it was,
01:21:32
Speaker
It was Liechtenstein. It was Liechtenstein. Go and look for Sandro Wolfinger's 2-1 goal in the 21st minute. It's one of the most beautiful goals I've seen in a very long time. Liechtenstein, eh? Yeah, Liechtenstein. Or Liechsteiner as one of my friends called him. No, Bosnia beat Liechtenstein 2-1 and Sandro Wolfinger's one, you know, cutting the deficit in half in the 21st minute.
01:22:00
Speaker
a wow. That is a bad show of the week. That is how you shoot. That is how you take a volley. It's from a corner, the ball goes out high and he just directly on the wall, he smacks it. The curve of the ball is just wow. It's truly, truly unbelievable. One of the goals of the season without a doubt.
01:22:26
Speaker
So definitely go check that out. OK, check that out. Prim Face of the Week. Nimmer, you have it this. This is this is gold. This is one of your son's great.
01:22:41
Speaker
Sky Sport UK were tweeted out, one of their employees, one of their journalists, one of their top guys, Carver Solichold, who I don't really have that much time for. I don't think he's very good at much. But when your own employer can't even get your name right,
01:23:01
Speaker
in the tweet, and they left it out for a good while. They called him, it was Carvus Solihull, that place in Birmingham. It's a park of Birmingham. His name is Carvus Solihull. They just pushed it out, and I just couldn't stop laughing.
01:23:18
Speaker
It's just so, so funny. They literally couldn't even get the name of their own, one of their biggest names. It was so funny. It was up for a good while before they deleted it. The best thing of all is that most people didn't even notice it.
01:23:35
Speaker
That's the best thing because they do, you know, most people didn't even reflect on the fact that that was. So what did they call him then? Sullyhull, like that part of Birmingham, like the place there, like very, very, very, very funny. It was just it was I just couldn't stop laughing.
01:24:00
Speaker
It reminds me of when I've seen this in the past when certain British English newspapers or media, like they use Google Translate to translate like from Gazetta or from Maca or from some foreign media, they put it straight through, but they make the mistake of putting
01:24:20
Speaker
someone, a person's name through Translate as well, and then it turns their name into liars. This is so good because I remember Andrea Ranocchia became Andrew Flo Froggli, which is so funny. Andrew Froggli is incredibly funny. And like, you know, what was it? Nicolo Barella becomes Nicholas Stretcher.
01:24:41
Speaker
and Alessandro Bastoni become Alexander Styx. It's so good. It's so, so good. That happens a lot. Yeah, it does. Nick Stretcher is incredibly fun. Brilliant. On that note, we will leave it. So we will be back on Tuesday for Q&A and then Thursday
01:25:08
Speaker
probably Thursday. Yeah, Thursday or Thursday. Yeah, for the for the review of Italy game and Italy. Yeah, Italy against no Ukraine. Sorry. Must've been game. So we'll review that and we'll look ahead to the weekend is the Milan Derby, Juventus, Lazio some huge matches this weekend. Okay, right. Have a good week, everyone. We'll see you next time. Ciao ciao.