Transcript
Speaker: Hey, everyone, it's Mike Potenza here for another episode in Becker Accounting Podcast. And my guest this week is a gentleman by the name of Matt Fargo. And Matt, like a lot of us, started out as an entry level CPA and worked in public for a bit.
Speaker: But then he did something really interesting. He started his own firm and turned that firm into the largest locally owned accounting firm in the state of Colorado. So he has a really interesting story. I think you'll enjoy it.
Speaker: And with that, I'd like to say, Matt, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the show. Happy to be here, Mike. Very excited. Well, thank you. I appreciate it, my friend. And assuming now that you have this big firm that you're a managing partner in Colorado, is that where you're from? Did you grow up in the state of Colorado?
Speaker: I didn't. I actually, ah so i was born in California. We moved from Northern California up to Anchorage, Alaska when I was five years old. I spent all my formative years in Anchorage and then moved to Scottsdale, Arizona, right at the beginning of ah of high school. um Spent my high school years in in Arizona and Scottsdale and then the came to Colorado for college and have stayed here ever since. So I went to University of Colorado at Boulder.
Speaker: All right. Well, let let me just back this up for a minute, because you just said something kind of interesting and strange to me at the same time. You said you were born in California, but then you grew up in Alaska. So somewhere along the lines, your parents said, you know what? We don't like California. We're going to get out of here. We're going to go move to Alaska. I've never interviewed someone from Alaska. Tell me, how did that happen?
Speaker: I think my parents were like, hey, the weather's too nice here. We need to move somewhere worse. ah No, no, really. ah my My dad worked for a company called Burroughs Unisys Corporation, and he was transferred in, I guess this would have been 1984, 1985.
Speaker: up to Anchorage, Alaska, um spent a few years with the company there and then ah left and and with a business partner, bought a company for a dollar out of bankruptcy, um grew the company over the course of a number of years to a 1200 person company with offices across the United States. We moved the corporate headquarters from Anchorage, Alaska down to Scottsdale, Arizona when I was in high school.
Speaker: um And so that's that's kind of how we ended up there and and ended up back in Scottsdale later on. Wow, that is a pretty big change to move from Alaska to the desert in Arizona. And I get it. You know, hey, your parents have to go where business tells them they need to go. But, you know, as a, you know, I'm not going to say child, but, you know, as a teenager, how is that for you to move from Alaska, then totally different climate into the desert?
Speaker: Yeah, for me, i you know, to be frank, I was kind of pissed about it. All the sports I was good at were on the ice or the snow or in the short summer season. You know, we were mountain biking and things like that. But um I wasn't super excited about moving to the desert. I super appreciate it now. I think Scottsdale is a beautiful place. It's got a lot of great things going on. But at the time.
Speaker: I took every chance I could possibly get to go back up to Alaska in the wintertime to go skiing. ah In the summertime, I worked for the Boy Scouts, either at the Boy Scout camp or I was a mountain guide for their high adventure program for a number of years as well, doing, ah you know, adventures in the Chugach range.
Speaker: And um I I wasn't a big fan of the desert, but but. but ah i I get I still get up to Alaska these days. I go up heli skiing at least once a year with some of old ski team buddies and some good friends here from Boulder. And ah we usually get up for a week and run a couple of helicopters and go jump off the side of mountains. It's pretty fun.
Speaker: All right. I would love to do a podcast just on heli skiing and maybe follow you around with the camera for that. That sounds pretty wild, but yeah we we could deviate all day and talk about that stuff. But now you said, okay, born in California, grow up in Alaska, move to the desert in high school, and then somehow wind up in Colorado for college. So you're like going all over the place.
Speaker: How do you wind up in Colorado for college? And where does accounting fit into this picture? Sure. So, you know, Colorado, University of Colorado Boulder was brought up a lot when I was a kid. um A lot of folks in Alaska in the oil industry or in the in the military um or or they're in um you know travel. I think those are the big ones up there. And so i heard about ah I heard about University of Colorado from people who in the oil industry went to ah Colorado School of Mines, which is in Golden, Colorado, not too far from here, about a 25 minute drive.
Speaker: And so it was high on my list when I started looking for colleges and um came here after a long visit with a whole bunch of other schools. It was kind of like a packed in week and a half of visiting schools or so.
Speaker: And I was walking through campus and I still remember it's snowing. It's beautiful. There's a little bit of fog above the flat irons here. And my dad kind of looks at me. He's like, so when are you going to wipe the smile off your face? And ah so that's that's how I knew i was going to come here. This this was a great place.
Speaker: um You know, I I'll get into the accounting thing in a second, but, you know, I so i started out my entrepreneurial journey really um my freshman year. I was I was a i was looking for a fraternity to join going through fraternity rush and met a few other fellow Eagle Scouts, actually.
Speaker: um And this is late 90s. And so extreme sports are cool. Yeah. And why do you come to Colorado? You come to Colorado to go rock climbing and ice climbing and spend time in the outdoors and and all these other things. And so you didn't come here to, you know, do keg stands, even though that's fun. ah And I did a couple. ah But, um you know, that that was really why I wanted to come here. and And so I actually got together with those guys and the six of us started a fraternity. on campus and ah our um our freshman year. And so I just got to spend alongside my business school education here at CU.
Speaker: um I also got to have a really great education on on growing an entity ah with a group of people from scratch. How do you recruit people? How do you get your brand out there? How do you compete with companies that are or or fraternities in this case that are much, much larger than you? How do you get the best people to come and join you, um even though, ah you know, they don't you're not the obvious choice. um And so by the time I left, we were probably about 60 guys.
Speaker: And last I checked, that fraternity that I started ah with those guys is now the largest fraternity at CU Boulder's campus. um And we actually have a couple of guys working at the at the firm now that ah we we're members of that fraternity. So um kind of come full circle. It's kind of fun. yeah Give a shout out. What's the name of the fraternity?
Speaker: It's called Theta Xi. Okay. So I'm going to just make a few notes here for podcast number two, heli-skiing fraternity keg stands. Got it. That's going to be a great episode. I can't wait for one. It's going to be awesome. Yeah. All right. So you're in school. You're fully immersing yourself. You're loving life at Boulder.
Speaker: And now you have to get an education somewhere between the keg stands and the skiing and forming a fraternity. So what tell me about the accounting? Was there someone, a mentor who guided you there? or Was it something you always wanted to do? How did you decide accounting?
Speaker: Yeah, it was it actually happened by accident, to be perfectly honest. So, yeah. I remember, you know, starting business school. Nobody, not nobody, but very few people start business school. And you're like, you know what I want to be? i want to be an accountant.
Speaker: Right. So um I think most people happen to and into it. But, you know, i so I started taking a few accounting classes and and one professor that was particularly and interesting interesting. But um I wouldn't say that I got the best grades in the first couple of accounting classes. The whole debit credit thing didn't line up with how debit and credit cards worked. And so it was all very confusing to me.
Speaker: Um, but I, but I do specifically remember, i think it was towards, uh, I want to say it was towards the end of my sophomore year. It might've been, uh, might have been junior year time frame, but um a girl I was dating who's my wife now, I ah i was in Scottsdale and she's actually from Scottsdale to funny enough.
Speaker: But um we're at her house and she was from Paradise Valley. And anybody that knows the Scottsdale or Paradise Valley is the fancy part. And ah so we pull up to her house and her dad had this really cool Mercedes and they got to the circular driveway and it's got a fountain out front. I'm like, oh, my gosh, what is your dad doing? and She's like, he's a CPA. And I was like,
Speaker: I'm going to that, whatever that is. So um I changed my major to accounting and in the system. And so I think what happened was PwC must have been going in and scraping every accounting so or accounting student.
Speaker: that had a 3.5 or higher GPA or something in in that realm and sending out a blast email that they were coming to campus for ah for interviews. And so I remember getting an email and this is like the beginning of email back. You know, this is what, like 2001 or something like that. And so I get an email and that PricewaterhouseCoopers is coming to campus.
Speaker: I've already got a job set aside that I'm going to be a mountain guide in Alaska um for the summer. But I was like, gosh, PricewaterhouseCoopers. I bet I've seen their name in the Wall Street Journal. I should probably just go put on a suit and show up to that interview.
Speaker: So I literally showed up to the interview and I had no idea what the company did. No clue. I didn't know they were an accounting firm. They could have been like a waste management company. Who knows? And we went through the whole interview. And at the time, the popular thing was um it was interviews and and you basically had it was situational interviewing. So you talk about, you know tell me about a time that you went through a difficult situation and did you deal with it? You know, do you have any leadership experience? You know, all those types of things. And it's really just tends itself or lends itself towards storytelling.
Speaker: And I had lots of cool stories. I worked for the Boy Scouts. I was a mountain guide. We went rock climbing all the time, started fraternity. And so we just kind of BS through the whole interview. And at the end of it, I left.
Speaker: And ah it was actually a couple weeks later, maybe a week later, something like that. I was skipping class because I was going to go powder skiing up in Vail. And I get a call on Vail Pass from the head recruiter. And they wanted us to come back in for a second interview. So.
Speaker: I call my dad. I said, hey, you ever heard of this company, PricewaterhouseCoopers? He goes, yeah, you idiot. It's the largest accounting firm in the world. And I was like, oh, that's awesome. So that's that's how it kind of got started. i figured out what they did after that. and the second interview was a little more informed. But.
Speaker: But I had a great internship. It was awesome. um And i I actually got on the Vail Resorts engagement. So I got to live most of the summer for my summer internship up in Vail, Colorado, working on the Vail Resorts engagement.
Speaker: ah So that was fun just to begin with. and And then they sent us to Disney World at the end of it ah for for a later ah week-long leadership course with all the other interns from it throughout the United States. So it was an awesome experience.
Speaker: thing. And I was like, man, you never work past five o'clock. You live in the cool places. You get to go to these great trainings like who wouldn't want to work in public accounting. This is just great. So that's how it kind of got started.
Speaker: Well, that's a pretty interesting story. And thank goodness for you going in there blind and cold that it all worked out, and that you had a lot of good stories to give. So good for you. Now, I will say also as a skier, you know, working Vail on that engagement, that must have been absolutely amazing. I assume you got to take advantage of some of that and ski some of the best terrain out there.
Speaker: Unfortunately, the ah the internships in the summertime, so it's just there's great mountain biking there in the summertime, though. So I did get to get out in the mountain bike quite a bit and and enjoy the outdoors. But, um you know, I was on the audit team. So during the day, you're in an interior conference room with no windows, with the air conditioning cranked all the way up. Right. So ah that part wasn't so great. But after work, before work, super fun.
Speaker: So when you graduated then, did you go straight to work for PwC? I did, yeah. So I finished the internship, ah finished my senior year with a job offer already in hand.
Speaker: um And actually, what's funny, my head of my tax department, Megan, ah was interning at the same time, and she has a lot of the same stories, which which is fun So now you start working for PWC. Did you do it out of Boulder or what city were you in? And at what point did you start preparing for the CPA exam?
Speaker: Yeah, so i was I was in the Denver office um when I started working for them. um yeahp i was I was in their technology group. So it was technology, information, communications, entertainment. That was kind of the division we were in.
Speaker: um And i so I started full time. So interned in 2002. I graduated 2003, started with a firm in 2003 towards the end of the year. ah But for anybody that remembers that time frame is pretty tumultuous in the technology space right around that same time. And so I was i was involved in technology companies and companies that were pre IPO, you know, all the tech startups, that the kind of stuff. But that stuff was falling off pretty fast. And so um Where are people that know how to deal with equity and debt and venture capital and all these other kind of things? Where would they be great?
Speaker: Mining. So I became a mining expert shortly after. And um so I traveled a lot. So I had to go out to Elko, Nevada. i was on the Newmont Mining Corporation engagement, Apex Silver, whole bunch of other ah mining companies. So I actually traveled probably 60%, 70% of the time, even though I was based in the Denver office.
Speaker: So did this start just as soon as you started working? Did you have much prep time? Did you feel confident in what you were doing? Did they prepare you well for this? So, you know, PwC has great training. Big four does. a lot of national firms do. So the first thing you do is you go to you go to a training and and then the internship itself was was a great training ground as well. So I went from an audit internship into being an auto associate.
Speaker: You go to ah I think it was a week or two long training in San Francisco right out of the gate. So yeah. I mean, you're as prepared as you can be, but you don't know anything until you start. And then it takes another year or two before you really know anything. um You know, i was I was already working on my CPA. So back when I did the CPA exam, um it was offered twice a year. I think it was May and November.
Speaker: um And so ah my goal was to take the first component of it. ah ah in November after I started with PwC. so i So I think we all started in September, if I remember correctly. And so um I had studied all summer long. So as soon as I graduated, I went up to Alaska and I worked as the head of the waterfront at a Boy Scout camp. So i was the head lifeguard.
Speaker: And i had all the Becker books lined up and ah shout out to Becker. So I had the hard copy Becker books with all the CD ROMs to listen to the the videos on.
Speaker: And um and I was really diligent. I got through. fully through so three sections. So it was everything but tax. And I can't remember exactly the section names at this point, but all the areas but tax.
Speaker: And my goal was to finish the tax section while I started PwC. I just work on it at night. You know, no problem. Right. You only work till five o'clock. Right. So um I started and it was right as Arthur Anderson went under um and we had picked up a lot of their engagements and we were re auditing a bunch of years. And so um I was on an engagement that we're working until 10, 11, 12 o'clock at night, every night, all over the weekends, everything.
Speaker: So I maybe got halfway through that tax section before that, that sitting for that CPA exam in November. And I passed three sections of the exam and I barely squeaked by with a high enough score on tax to let, give myself credit so I could take it again the following May.
Speaker: Um, and that was tricky. I was pretty pissed off. I thought I worked really hard. Um, But it kind of gave me an understanding of like how important and how how valuable the CPA license is. It's not easy to get.
Speaker: You know, you can't just come out with good grades and and sit down and nail this thing. You really got to put the time in. And, you know, the Becker course, we actually buy the Becker course for everybody in our firm. um And ah because I believe in it, but I think.
Speaker: i I spent the time as soon as I didn't pass. i I actually took we only got two weeks of vacation when I was at PwC at the time. So before the exam, I took two weeks off. I was going to take the exam at the end of the two weeks.
Speaker: I sat down with a Becker course. I had it all set up. I was going to do one section a day. I went to the law school at CU every single day. I'd spend 10 hours there every single day, taking notes, watching the videos, doing the review, everything. And I nailed it that next time. So that was good. But um that was hard. You're working long hours and studying. So vacation was the only way to get it done.
Speaker: I feel the pain. i lived it myself. So I know where you're coming from. So you do it now. You're working for PwC. You're learning a lot. You're getting experience. You have those three beautiful letters after your name. So how long do you wind up staying at PwC before you decide, you know what, I need to move in another direction?
Speaker: Yeah, so I was I was there. 2004 2007 was and maybe to actually to timing. So it's about four years um approximately and um it was great i mean i worked my but off i had I had a regular busy season for normal busy season. Plus, I had that Vail Resorts engagement, which was an off busy season. They had a six thirty thirty year end. So we were working long hours all the time. i didn't really get a summer off or anything like that.
Speaker: um I was I was definitely one of the hardest chargeable, if not the highest chargeable associate in the office for a number of years. um And to be perfectly honest, like I loved it at first. It was awesome doing recruiting on college campuses, all the training.
Speaker: You're just absorbing information fast. um But towards the end, I was getting burned out. um And I just I'm starting to look around at some of the folks above me. And you always look above you to say, like, hey, do I want those guys jobs?
Speaker: And at the time, it just didn't seem like was looking at some of these guys. I'm like, i don't I really want to be that when I grow up. um And so um I luckily had. ah a really good family friend, um his name Sam, worked for KPMG.
Speaker: um He was he was out of the Michigan office, but and he he ran the internal audit for I think it was General Motors account. And um we're up in Durango. It was a southern Colorado and at at my family's house down there. And um we're sitting by the fireplace.
Speaker: drinking some good wine. And I was telling him what I wasn't liking about public accounting. And I said, you know, I think I'm going to leave public accounting. I don't think it's my thing. I think I'm going to go into sales or something like that for like a technology company. I just i just don't want to be in public accounting anymore. And he goes, I hear you.
Speaker: You're going to hate that. and And I said, well, why is that? And he goes, I don't think you realize you're working with the top of the top folks. Like these are the hardest working.
Speaker: These are the top tier people in the industry. And you're going to go in and you're going be working with people that are just punching the clock. And he's like, that's not going to scratch the edge for you. And so we got into a really great conversation about entrepreneurship and the things that I was really hoping for out of my career.
Speaker: And he's like, you know what, Matt, I've got a friend that works at another national accounting firm. And um they have an office in l L.A. I'll introduce you to them. You should talk to them, ask them about the firm. And they also have an office in Denver. So if you dig it, I'll introduce you the Denver office and and you can interview there. And so I ended up doing that, had a great conversation with the managing partner, of the L.A. office of this firm ah and went interviewed in Denver and ended up joining this national firm that was on a growth tear. They were doing acquisitions and um
Speaker: And so I was really excited. i was scratching a lot of those itches. It was, um you know, it's a national firm that had grown to a national firm almost overnight. not Not really, but like they'd done a ton of acquisitions. And so what are the problems you have? You got all these different offices that operate differently that now need to come under one umbrella. And how do you get that to happen?
Speaker: You got to build national training. You got to build national technical offices. You got to have to have you're going to have, ah you know, through that, you're trying to create ways of doing things that go across everything. So leadership training, things like that. And so um in addition to being on the audit side for that company and I got to work on publicly traded companies,
Speaker: You're not at PwC anymore, so you're working on peak pink sheet listed companies and smaller public filing companies and IPOs and things like that. Super fun. um i was I was one of our experts and now in complex equity, complex debt arrangements, things like that.
Speaker: ah So that was really interesting. But i also, we were building our national training program. And so I got hooked up with a guy who was who was leading that. And I got to be a national instructor for the firm. I got to help build some of our training programs that we'd fly everybody out to Kansas City and teach those things twice a year.
Speaker: um We were pushing out of the Denver office, which was one of the biggest offices for that firm. um We were pushing out leadership training and all these different kinds of programs. um So it was really cool. It was super fun. And we got to help build our our college recruiting as well at that firm. So you think about a national firm getting built overnight and building all these things out.
Speaker: ah That's exciting. And then 2008 hits. yeah So um and of course, like anything in public accounting, you're not on the leading edge. of It's like a year later before 2008 hits the accounting firms in a big way. And so by the time 2009 went around, the firm that I was at was dealing with a lot of different things. We were doing layoffs. um lot of the folks i joined and knew were leaving people i had recruited were getting laid off and so i was looking around the room once again you know are are these the guys i really want to be a partner with in the future um and i was on that partner track there and um my my really good friend chester kurtz who i actually started kurtz fargo with uh he and i were talking a lot and and we finally said
Speaker: You know, I don't think this is where I want to hang my shingle. I think I want to go do this somewhere else and and I want to do it myself. And so he and I left that company and started Kurtz Fargo um in 2010, August 2010. And it could have been called Fargo Kurtz or Kurtz Fargo. We were trying to come up with the right name. I feel like it was my idea first, so it should have been Fargo Kurtz. But everybody's got to think about what's the abbreviation that you're going to use in the work papers. Should it be FK?
Speaker: no It's got to be KF. That sounds way better. So that's that's kind of how we came up with the name, right? Wow. so So that's a lot to digest here. So youre you decide to leave PwC. You get connected with this other company and then ultimately bad economic time. So you feel that, hey, the writing's on the wall. We need to get out. How long are you were at that company and this Chester Kurtz that you started this firm with, was he in the same role you were at this firm where you were working?
Speaker: Yeah, so i was at that firm for about four years as well. So I had a great time there. um But it's three and a half years, somewhat something like that.
Speaker: um But ah Chester, Chester, so Chester and I both, so I worked primarily on the publicly traded side of the business. So I worked with companies that were going through IPOs or were already a publicly traded company. And so that was really where my expertise lied.
Speaker: Um, Chester worked primarily with large privately held companies. And so he worked with some venture capital and private equity back businesses, things like that. Um, and, uh, he was actually my coach, I think is what they called him or career coach or, um, your mentor or whatever at at the firm. And so, um, that's how I got to know him, but we actually had offices next to each other in the Boulder office. I, I spent time between the Boulder and the Denver offices when I was at that firm, but, um, we, we got pretty close cause the Boulder office was, was quite small at the time.
Speaker: but When we first met, you you told me a story and i can't remember it exactly, but it was it was interesting. I remember there was something about you wanted to sponsor something and they wouldn't let you sponsor it, but you did it anyway. What was the story behind that? Yeah, Chester, he's he's the guy to talk to us about this stuff. He was constantly hearing of as my coach or mentor.
Speaker: He he got a lot of guff. I was always breaking the rules. So um that particular story. So and this is probably 2008 time frame. And. eight ah time frameme and um tech accelerators were becoming a big thing. So Y Combinator out in Silicon Valley and then here in Boulder, Colorado was Techstars. And those became the two largest accelerator programs in the technology space. um And so i I had met with Dave Cohen, who started Techstars. I saw ah something in the newspaper about this new tech accelerator starting. So I went met with him in the basement of this building downtown, super small startup at the time.
Speaker: And um I was trying to understand whether ah they would want an accounting firm as a sponsor. I i looked at who they were talking to and at who they were connected with. And these were some of the best, most influential venture capital related folks in the entire country at the time. And and so I thought this has got to be an awesome place for us to get involved as a firm.
Speaker: And so David and I sat down there. We talked for a while about what you know our firm was about and how we could help them and what these kind of companies need. These are startup companies, right? Like brand new ideas, you know, and then they're going to grow. They're going to raise capital right after the accelerator program. These are the best of the best companies that kind of been, you know, uh, uh,
Speaker: filtered out and these are the top ones. Right. So I thought this would be great. So I came back to the company. I think it was like a three thousand dollar sponsorship or something like that. I came back to the firm. I said, guys, we got to do this. i don't I don't know what it's going to do, but i think it's going to be awesome. We got to know these guys.
Speaker: And um they said, well, you need to write up like an ah ROI white paper or something like that about how we're going to get a return on this investment. And I just thought that was the stupidest thing ever. And anybody that knows me in this firm knows that like I'm not quiet about that kind of stuff. And so i What I ended up doing was I went up around. There's a lot of managers that have lunch budgets, but they didn't really use them.
Speaker: And so I had a bunch of people allocate me their lunch budgets and I just sponsored it anyway. And so I got in trouble for that. And I remember Chester, he he came up to me and he said, hey, you know, i had a conversation with a couple of the the main partners in the office and they said ah they said that, you know, they didn't like that you broke the rules. And and ah and and I told them they should fire you. And I was like, what? He said, well, I told him that if they want to build custom homes, then that they should let you run. And if they just want to build a bunch of beige houses that ah that that they should just fire you because that's not what you're going to do. And and I said, are they going to fire me? He's like, no, they thought that was really cool. And they i wanted to stay on. So anyway, that was that was actually one of the first and and one of many ah kind of butting of heads of. And it wasn't really that that was a bad firm in any way. We just had different ways
Speaker: of how we wanted to address the market. and and And I had a vision of doing certain things. I like to move fast. I don't like to have consensus decisions around things. um I think that slows companies down.
Speaker: And so um I just, it it kind of, you got the flavor over time that if you really want to do something and make make some waves, you're going to have to do it somewhere else. How did that investment work out? Was it worth it?
Speaker: Yeah, ah not for them. I built I built some great relationships, you know, to this day, like one of my favorite podcasts was ah is the all in podcast. um And ah it's this Jason Calacanis, a whole bunch of guys. And um I remember meeting Jason back in like 2008 at some investor conference. And so, I mean, you get to meet all these different folks that now are like,
Speaker: The top of the top in the in in the industry and some of the best venture capitalists out there. and And we got to be a part of that. And some of the coolest companies were were coming out of these these groups. And so and I learned a ton from those programs. And so um we got deeply ingrained in that in that tech ecosystem here in Colorado, here in Boulder, especially where it was just on fire as a result of that that one first risk. Right.
Speaker: Sure. So you and Chester see the writing on the wall, you get together, you're like, you know what, we should go out and we should start our own firm, our own business. Walk me through that. Did you really put together a detailed business plan and how you were going to do that? Or you know how did the whole process ah unfold?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, like anything, you start off pissed off, right? And you're like, this is stupid. We got to do something different. ah Yeah, a detailed business plan. It was a spreadsheet. That's what accountants do. We build a spreadsheet, right? So, you know, story we we like to tell, whether it's true or not, I'm going to say it's true.
Speaker: Chester and I got a six pack of beer. We went to his house. We built a spreadsheet. That part's true for sure. Our wives actually were at the pool and with he had two little kids. And um and I do remember at one point talking about measuring his basement just in case it didn't work. that I would have a place to move into because he had a bigger house than me. He was a senior manager. I was only a manager at the time. And ah so it was it was ah it was it was a fun it was a fun early moment. But, you know, the the One of the things we learned from working with startup companies, and this is, you know, watching these guys on stage and watching these guys build companies, you start to get a different flavor for risk because, you know, as an accountant working for a big national accounting firm, that's what you're supposed to dream of when you're in school, right? Getting a job with one of these companies that has a name like that. That's a big deal.
Speaker: and And if you lose a job or just leave one of those companies, like what the heck are you doing? Right. um And and like, how are you going feed your family? And so the the concept of the risk associated with leaving your job feels huge.
Speaker: um In reality. Go start a company. Try it out. If you're not good at it, stop. And now your resume is even better when you go back and get the job you used to have. And maybe you get a better job than you had before at ah at a different firm.
Speaker: No problem. um But we we were really nervous. um But the the business plan was, is it was enough business plan in order to get an SBA loan from the bank. that's yeah that's That's about what we did.
Speaker: Excellent. Excellent. So give give me an idea age-wise about how how old are you when you do this? And I assume you're still relatively young at this point. I don't even know if you're 30 yet. So how old are you? And then how are you going out and finding business where people going to say, or we're going to trust this kid to provide services for us and pay him money.
Speaker: Yeah. So I was, I was 29. Chester was 35 at the time. So we were both super young. um And, but we had great experience. I mean, both of us had national firm experience. and We had worked on really hard stuff and,
Speaker: You know, as anybody knows, working in anything, it's it's all about the repetitions and hours. Right. And so, you know, working two busy seasons, volunteering for everything I could polish possibly volunteer. I would put my resume at eight, nine years of experience up against anybody with 15 plus years of experience all day long. I know I worked my butt off harder than most anybody out there can. And so um I got a ton of experience as a result. And Chester was exactly the same way. I mean, he signed up for everything. And if there was a way to do it, he would he would do it. He'd fit it in.
Speaker: um And so, you know, when we first start got started, though, our our our first initial plan was was this. um We were watching early stage companies that were fast growth.
Speaker: ah Whether that's venture capital backed, whether that's private equity backed, whether that's businesses that are just bootstrapped. um These companies go through a life cycle and the business is changing every single year.
Speaker: um And a lot of these companies were getting the recommendation that they needed to work with a national accounting firm. And so and and the reason was, is they wanted the expertise and the capabilities and all the things that that come along with a brand like that.
Speaker: In reality, a company that's that small joins a national accounting firm and we assign all our interns to their job, right? And so they're not getting the best advice.
Speaker: They're not getting the best of what we do. They're getting a great tax return or a great audit. But all the things that the the insights that come off of those that are really were the values at, they weren't getting. And so that that was our initial go-to-market strategy was let's focus on planning, strategy, and communication and and building a relationship with these companies. They don't have complex businesses yet, but they will. They got to make the right decisions. They need somebody to call. Hey, we're putting a stock option plan into place. We're raising capital. Should I be a C Corp or an LLC? You know, all these different questions. And they just need somebody to bounce that off of along so alongside their attorneys. And so that's who we wanted to be. And that's that's how we started it out.
Speaker: um And then that evolved over time. it was It was technology businesses first, and then it started, and then our eyes opened up and were like, oh, wait, this isn't just technology businesses that have this problem. It's almost every business. Any business that's a growth business has these issues. The business is changing every single year. The things that we talked about last year may not be relevant anymore. They need more advice. They need more planning. They may need more strategy.
Speaker: um They need somebody who's connected in the marketplace. you know Do you know the attorneys that know this space well? Do you know the bankers that work in this space? Do you know the venture capitalists and the private equity funds that can bring the capital to the table for growth support? All those types of things. And so we were young, but we're also working with young entrepreneurs.
Speaker: And one of the things that's cool about Boulder, and I think any an entrepreneurial environment is the same way, is it's not about your age. It's about your capabilities and your network and everything else. And so You know, we showed up to everything. We learned as much as we possibly could. And I think we we provided really outsized value to these companies early on.
Speaker: So that's really interesting. So you're you're now looking for clients basically that have an upside with respect to growth, maybe involved in private equity. And as these companies are growing, I'm assuming that you're kind of growing with them, right? You have to provide more services. You as well need more resources. So how does that translate into your firm? How how long does it last just Chester and Matt for before you know the employee count starts going up and you need to bring in ah HR and all the other things that come with growth in any company.
Speaker: Yeah. So, I mean, we, we started out, you always start with the end in mind, right? And you don't actually know what the end is going to be, but you always say that, right? But we were never building a firm to be a lifestyle firm. So it was never just going to be the two of us.
Speaker: We had, we had, you know, ideas, we had a structure that we wanted to build. And so, you know, it was probably, i bet it was six months in to building the firm that we brought in our first employee. And then shortly after that, another employee, um, You know, one of our one of our first employees ah was a guy named Jeff Starkey, who actually was a tax director at the previous firm that I was at, who had left before us. And so he didn't have a non-compete agreement or a non-solicitation agreement.
Speaker: And um he was yeah he actually was on a lot of my publicly traded companies that I worked on. And so I had a ton of respect for him. And. um I was uniquely really good at selling things that I had no idea how to do. So I hadn't done a tax return since my senior year of college other than my own on TurboTax. Right.
Speaker: We sold a very large company tax work that had filings in every state. um And and. and ah So i was like, oh, my God, I don't know how we're going to do this tax return, but we got the job. This is awesome.
Speaker: And so we got Jeff to come over. um He kind of was working part time for us for a little while until we could ah fully afford him. um But I don't think Chester and I actually made a salary for the first three and a half years, maybe four years, something like that, because every single dollar that we brought in.
Speaker: We would plow back into new employees, new equipment. um And we we were really focused on growing the business. And so it was about year four before it really flipped around and we could start paying back some of that debt that we'd been borrowing to pay our living expenses for years.
Speaker: All right. So where are we now? How many years has Kurtz Fargo been around and how big has it grown to this point? Yeah. we've, we've pretty consistently added 30 plus percent growth every single year since the beginning. And we were just meeting with a bank the other day and, um,
Speaker: That was a comment they had made to say, you guys have been growing about 30% a year the whole time pretty consistently, which which is awesome. and um And that's all organic growth. We've never done an acquisition. So this has all been annual organic growth, going out to the marketplace, bringing in new clients, referrals, you know new business through our networks.
Speaker: um How long have we been around? We've been around about 15 years now. so um So we started August So years, a little over years now.
Speaker: And what have you grown to? How many employees, do you which ballpark would you say you have now? Yeah, knew were going to ask that. So I looked today. So I think we're right around 85 today. So we just did an all firm meeting yesterday. we had our Denver office, our Boulder office and our Durango office ah calling in. And then we had a bunch of people down in the Denver office where we have a big classroom. And yeah.
Speaker: It's pretty interesting to see that many people. And we just started a bunch of summer interns too. So um it's pretty exciting. But yeah, eighty about 85 people. And then we're going to be adding a bunch more this year. that That is great. That's ah you know kudos to you and the growth that you've had in such a short time.
Speaker: And this is a question I love to ask people in your position, you know managing partner, really you know have the pulse of the firm and make a lot of the important decisions.
Speaker: What is your model for billing your clients? Is it the traditional hourly rates or is it per project? Like how do you envision the best thing for Kurtz Fargo with respect to billables?
Speaker: Yeah. Well, I think that that question probably goes back to, you know, how we think about the industry as a whole. um You know, when when we started the firm, um I had a little black book on my desk and it was it was kind of ah had a sticky note on the front said the things that suck about public accounting.
Speaker: and And I would just take notes and put bullet points in there. But the the point of it was that I just wanted to regurgitate on paper. The things that I didn't think the business did well.
Speaker: And it's an old industry. And so, you know, as it with any old industry, especially one like accounting, where you can trip over a bad accounting firm that is successful, um, by accident. Right. Uh, and so, you know, if you want to be better, you almost have to look at the business model and say, does this all make sense still? Or, or is this something back from like the 1920s still?
Speaker: Uh, and so, um, there was a whole host of things that we looked at early on and we didn't address every single one right away. Um, but billing was one of the big ones. And, and, and there's a couple others actually, um You know, I think hourly billing was one of the ones that we said sucks. ah but We shouldn't do hourly billing.
Speaker: um Hiring behind revenue was another one. um So what that means is, ah are we doing bring the clients in first and then hire more employees and and run our teams hot all the time? ah Or do we plan for the growth and hire people ahead of the revenue? So clients are coming into capacity and people aren't getting burned out as a result.
Speaker: um You know, a focus on compliance. We thought sucked. You you shouldn't be focusing on compliance. That's table stakes. ah Clients want planning and strategy and communication and relationships.
Speaker: um And a lot of people are just pumping out tax returns or pumping out audits. And we'll see you next year. Right. um Partner compensation models. we have I still remember being in these meetings where we're fighting over the staff that are going to be on our jobs.
Speaker: and And if you really boiled it down to what the fight was about, it was about who was going to have the best realization because they had the best people on their jobs. So it was really about running individual verticals within their firm and rent sharing effectively rather than running one firm together, all pushing in the same direction.
Speaker: um firm ownership models and and and you know do we have an equity model or are we just sharing the income every year you know is there something of really a value that's being created in the firm and i remember looking at that we can talk about this later but um ah accounting firms were trading in the market for damn near nothing and and you're talking about firms with recurring revenue sticky clients really high value services and they're trading for less than investment advisory firms. They're trading for, you know, they're trading for five X EBITDA or less. Come on.
Speaker: That doesn't make any sense. And so what was what was causing that? And so we didn't know what was causing it at the time. We just know it sucked. um And then. You know, ah partner retirement planning, things like that. You start to once you start to understand like what some of these partner retirement models were.
Speaker: Go. What the heck are you working here that many years for for that at the end? Come on. That doesn't make any sense. And so these were all the things that we kind of like wrote down. And billing, honestly, was one of the big ones that I'd like to say that we had the vision to know that it mattered this much.
Speaker: But it was just one that, to be honest, the way we came up with it was. I was working on remodeling a house and we've been talking about doing fixed fees engagements and we'd gone to seminars and trainings and all these kind of things. And everybody's got a different thing bill by the page and this and that. And there's all these ways that everybody is trying to come up with a methodology for for pricing. And it all kind of boiled back to ours in some way.
Speaker: But I was remodeling my house and I met with a group that was here in Boulder and they were a design build firm. And ah this is probably like 2012 or something like that.
Speaker: And um they came and said, we do fixed fee work. So we're going to build the scope. We're going understand your company what you want to do. We're going to come to you with a price and it's going to include all the scope that we're going to do.
Speaker: And there's going to be a contingency in there. And that's going to be the fee that you pay. And if you want to change something, there's going to be a change order. But as long as you don't change anything, that's going to be the price. And by the way, the timeline that we say is going to be the timeline, too. And we're going we're going to hit the timeline. i was like, for the love of God, like you're talking about a company that does home remodeling, being able to give a fixed price and a fixed deadline.
Speaker: How the heck can we not fix price a tax return? Like what's really the difference? And it's because most of the time people are just too lazy to understand the inputs that go into it. But also, on the other hand, what's the value the client's getting out of the output that you're giving them? And so there's there's an art to it. There's no science to it. And if you try to apply science to it too much, ah you end up with the wrong approach or you end up just using time at the end of the day.
Speaker: And so you got to look at what, what is, what is this worth to the client? What value can my firm bring to this particular situation? You know, can we save them a ton of money? Can we give them some objective insights they've never heard about before that are really going to move the the business forward?
Speaker: You know, these are all the things that get factored into pricing. And then you come up with a fixed fee and you say, for this scope of work, this is going to be the fee. And if we misprice it, that's on us. If we miss scoped it and we have to add scope, then we'll talk about some additional scope costs that that go into that.
Speaker: But you move forward really together with the client because now you've agreed up front on the hardest thing that's going to happen in your relationship, which is the the fees and the billing. um And so once that's done, now we can all focus on delivering great service to the client, a great output.
Speaker: But the other cool thing is on the inside of the company, that's where real change happens. And it's even amplified more with the advent of ai and all these other tools that are making our jobs a lot faster.
Speaker: But um it doesn't change the value the output to the client. And so now our teams, instead of teams trying to figure out how to charge the most time possible because they're getting graded effectively in the firm on their chargeable hours, they're trying to drive downtime because the more efficient they get,
Speaker: the more profitable that job is because we can move on to another job. And if we're hiring a head of revenue, if we can get jobs done quicker, that doesn't mean that they're going to get penalized. Now we can start looking at, we can start measuring outputs rather than inputs.
Speaker: Hours are inputs. That's a stupid thing to measure. yeah like You should still measure it, but it doesn't really make sense and it doesn't really... to define the value of the engagement. um And so, you know, I'll give an example. Let's say a client signs up for a $10,000 a year tax return.
Speaker: And the first year, it takes about $10,000 worth of time because you got to put a bunch of extra time in documenting things and getting the team up to speed and everything else. So it didn't work out so great the first year, but it's okay.
Speaker: But the second year, all that's in place. And now it only costs seven or $6,000 do the tax return. But you raise the price of the fee because it's the next year and there's inflation and all these other things.
Speaker: The client's still happy. They got the same output, maybe a little bit better output, maybe a little faster. um They don't value it any less, but you made a bigger profit because your team did something to benefit the company.
Speaker: And so um that that starts applying to now maybe you got a better technology that can help you. You know, you implemented ah AI software like so many are coming out now that can cut 60 or 80 percent of the time for preparation out.
Speaker: Awesome. That's great. um You know, all these other things now are a benefit rather than a detriment. So it's not something to be scared of. It's something to be excited about. Sure. And I do love that analogy of the home improvement company. If they could do the fixed fee, why can't we do it it? makes total sense. And we could probably do another episode on things that suck up public accounting and go through your book. But I just want to go through one more point on things that suck about public accounting. Talk to me about how you handle a busy season. Is it still you know a pain point for your organization?
Speaker: Yeah, of course it is. um You know, it's it is still the busiest time of year. um But one of one of the core values we have in our company is is we we say we don't have any sacred cows.
Speaker: I don't know if that's PC or not, but we we really value throwing darts at processes within our company and things that are ah just accepted as how it is. Right. And so when you think about busy season,
Speaker: The reason busy season is busy is because there's a deadline and a lot of. And and so let's just talk about the tax and let's not worry about the audit for a minute. um The tax deadline, the vast majority of clients, that first April 15th deadline or March 15th deadline is is is not an issue for them. They just think it is.
Speaker: And so and and and there's a lot of stuff you work on during that period of time that you can't finish during that period of time because more information comes in later, K-1s, whatever it is. And so you're really talking about load leveling. So when we, know, early on, we were looking at our busy season and and I remember seeing a number of returns that went out in August or September because we're waiting on K-1s that we had a large amount of time in February or March.
Speaker: It's like, why the heck are we working on that? You know, we we we do a lot of planning and strategy work for our clients. And so we're going into busy season with a tax plan for most of these clients. And so we already kind of know where they're going to end up. They're already you know, this is really an administration task than in in and less of a you know, this is how much you're going to pay for sure, you know. um And so we started looking at and say, you know, why? why are we working on these things and not these other things? And so what we did was, um and we're still getting good at this. um We're not great at it yet, but the team knows what the North Star is. And the North Star is we want to do something called micro scheduling. So we want to look at each individual client.
Speaker: And we want to have such a good relationship and help help them understand that we've got them so that they don't have to worry about the deadline. And I stole this one from the construction industry as well.
Speaker: When I was working with a really great ah to design build firm, You didn't have to micromanage the process because you knew they were micromanaging the process. You just to get to come along for the ride. You're the client. We got you, right? Just show up to the meetings. Give us your opinion when we ask you and you're good to go. You don't have to worry about it.
Speaker: And so we wanted to be the same way. So I said, okay, if we can if we can understand what clients have all of their information before a certain deadline, which clients don't have all of their information by a certain deadline. And then we go to the clients and say, this is your deadline with our firm.
Speaker: And this is when your stuff is due and and and this is when we're going to get your returns done. Now we can start being really specific with an agreement from the client and an agreement from our team that we're going to finish these by these these times. And now we can start scheduling out in in charts, you know, what work is going to get done at which times. So it's never perfect. um And lots of firms do scheduling, but I don't think they're digging into the the detail levels that we're digging into.
Speaker: um and in And our teams really bought into this. You know, I remember in our post-busy season meeting last year, it was it was a tougher season than we wanted it to be. And we asked the team what happened.
Speaker: And they were all really honest about, you know, maybe not scheduling certain things properly, not thinking about which returns were being worked on, not managing the process properly. And so we dug in and said, how can we do that better? What systems and processes do we need?
Speaker: What things do we need to be looking at? so the team's always trying to figure out how to do that better. So with respect to the micro scheduling, just to kind of come full circle on this, would you say though it's made a difference in the quality of the work life and you know people aren't maybe putting in those 70 hour work weeks, you're able to get it down to something a little more reasonable?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, we, we We hire so that our our hours in busy season are sub 50 hours. um And so we make sure that we have enough staff that that when we look at the total hours of allt that that needs to get work during these periods of time to hit the the the work that needs to go out the door during those periods of time, the the outputs.
Speaker: What are the inputs that go into that How many people do we have that are going to be chargeable? How many potential chargeable hours that we do? We have a handicap some of those for interns and things like that because you're not going to get a full chargeable hour out of each person.
Speaker: and you And you try to give yourself a cushion for new clients that are coming in or issues that pop up, things like that. But you're really trying to plan for less. Now, you know, you have some weeks that spike in some weeks that dip. But for the most part, you know,
Speaker: we We are not working the kind of hours that I was used to working at the big four. There's there's no way. And that the people that come here from other national and regional firms, they've they've reflected that as well.
Speaker: But I think the real difference is it's not perfect. and And we admit that. And we're always trying to get better. But I think the difference is is our team genuinely is trying to do better every single year. And the partners here are listening and saying, how what can we do to support that?
Speaker: you know because Ideally, I would love it if our team could work 40 hours a year, all year long or less, and get out all the work that needs to get out at the quality level that needs to get out and provide all the all the planning and and strategy and everything, communication to the clients that they want to get.
Speaker: If we can do that, that's awesome. That's great. and and and if you you can You can shave those peaks down quite a bit um with good planning. that That sounds like a very, very good goal to have, and I'm sure your staff is very appreciative of that, as I am appreciative of your time right now. And you know we've been talking a lot, and I don't want to keep it too much longer, but I do have to ask you one more question about a topic you brought out. and It is ah a hot topic in the industry right now, AI, right artificial intelligence. There's a lot of firms that are saying, you know what, we're going to cut our hiring. We don't know how AI is going to affect us. We want to be more efficient. We're investing money, so maybe we don't have as much for payroll.
Speaker: What is your take on artificial intelligence and the AI software that's out there and hiring? What are you doing and what are you seeing for your firm? Yeah. I think- Well, let's I think a lot of firms are really scared about this.
Speaker: And I think you can go back in history. I love history, but you can go back in history, electricity coming out, ah the spreadsheet being invented or Excel, ah right? The calculator. and there's There's all these major things.
Speaker: major shifts that that affected the industry or industries as a whole. And I think this is one of them. So we're going to go through one of those times. um And you can either be scared of it, but it's going to happen no matter what. Or you can lean into it and get really excited.
Speaker: And our firm's excited. um But I think I think the best way to boil it down, I've heard a lot of people talk about this, been to a lot of conferences, and i think it's first helpful to understand some like core rocks or truths about the industry or or about AI in general. Right. And so I think one of the things that we talk about here is, you know, over time, and this isn't happening right now, but it will happen over the arc of time is the value of knowledge. Right.
Speaker: is just going to be worth a lot less or maybe close to zero, right? So um those folks that memorize tax code or memorized accounting ah ah regulations, that's at somebody's fingertips now and we can get it right away. And so the client that that is going to reach out to you just to get that thing that you memorized or that you can look up in only your books, that's not going to happen anymore.
Speaker: um And I think that's going to happen to a lot of industries, right? You can look up something on Gemini right now about why your stomach hurts. um That doesn't mean you're not going to go to the doctor, but you might have a more intelligent conversation to start with the doctor than you would have had had you not gone in there first, right?
Speaker: And so I think that's one thing you have to understand is, you know, we've got to think about our business differently as a result of that truth um or what we believe to be a truth. The other side of that coin, and and let's just think of it as like a teeter totter, if the value of the knowledge is coming down, the value of of expertise, the value of judgment, the value of advice, the value of influence in your marketplace is going up a lot.
Speaker: And so the the value of a professional that can understand the knowledge that we just were able to have at our fingertips and then give really great advice to the client.
Speaker: That's going to still remain. And so I think with those two things in place, I think there's a lot of things that come out of that. How do you train your people? How do you hire? um You know, because at the end of the day, you know, I was just at a conference. It was in San Diego and we were talking and we got to see ah ah some stuff from black or from accrual. um These are tax preparation tools um There were, you know i think Arminino's using accrual. I think there's Plant Moran and a bunch of other firms that are using black ore.
Speaker: But these preparation products are taking 60 80% of the time out 1040 preparation. That's massive. of ten forty preparation that's massive So there's a couple different directions you can go there.
Speaker: One is, you know, from your question on staffing, one is I want to be a firm that's going to be high volume, low cost. So I'm going lean on these platforms and I'm going get a lot more done with a lot less people and a lot less cost.
Speaker: So you're probably going to be in layoff mode, right? And I think there's a lot of companies just outside of the accounting industry and probably in the accounting industry, they're going to go down that route. And that's one route. I think TurboTax already played that out years ago. And I think AI might, you know, take their market share and move it up just a touch or the folks that kind of want that kind of service and and and be in that space.
Speaker: On the other hand, I think there's there's a room for the strategy that we're going to apply, which is a human-centric strategy. So we're going look at the industry and we're gonna say we're going use AI and we're going to use technology tools as tools.
Speaker: And we're going to rely on expertise, advice, influence, and judgment. And that's going to be our market advantage and that's going to be our value to our clients. And so you're really going after the high end, which is what we've always gone after. And so I think that those kind of truths and those that directionality are kind of focused on how we're going to address the market as these tools come out.
Speaker: is going to drive how we think about recruiting. That's going to drive how we think about which tools we're going to pick. ah um It's going to drive how we train people. um And we actually just had a big company meeting yesterday where I had a bunch of interns asking questions. Oh, my God. Like, are we going to have a job? Like, it sounds like it's going to be partner level conversations with clients all the time.
Speaker: I don't think that's true. Number one, we've always been hiring the top students from the top schools. And we've been we've been awesome at recruiting at schools. And when you talk to these kids, they have a great, they don't just have an accounting education. They have accounting, finance, management, operations. That's what they're coming into an accounting firm with.
Speaker: and then we're putting them in front of a computer we meaning the industry and we're saying do data entry for a few years for me don't talk to any clients and don't focus on big thinking but somewhere in the next five or six years we're going ask you to pop up out of the ground and start building a network and and thinking about the big picture and so i think we have to think about getting these kids that have an awesome view of a number of different things and just getting them to think differently.
Speaker: um We've been putting our staff in front of our clients early on for a long time, and I've never seen any negative results of that. they They take that that challenge on really well.
Speaker: And so I think, you know, as you know as I mentioned, we're still leaning into hiring. There's a lot less recruiting going on, so I get even better people. there's ah and um And we're going to continue to do that. And we're going to really lean into that planning, strategy, judgment, communication. That's going to be our competitive advantage.
Speaker: um And, you know, we always like to... I like to say you don't have to be the best accounting firm in the in the world. You just have to suck less than everybody else.
Speaker: So um I think there's a lot of room. And I think these tools that we're going to be seeing coming out in the ways of thinking about our business. It's really going to be incredible over the next few years. And there's a lot of other components of our business. And we I know we don't have time to talk about all of them, about the way we compensate our partners, the way we think about our ownership, the way we think about a lot of different things in the market that really gets everybody pointed and fighting in the same direction.
Speaker: um that's That's what's going to make us successful alongside all of these other technologies that are coming up. Well, Matt, I cannot thank you enough for all of this information. ah You're so generous with your time as well as sharing your knowledge. And I'm sure there's a lot of people listening that have been thinking, you know what, maybe I do want to become an entrepreneur. I want to start my own business, start my own firm. So you've really given a lot of great insights into that. And i cannot tell you how grateful we are to have you here to be our guest. And to do that. And I know there was a lot of stuff we didn't even get to scratch the surface of. And maybe we'll do this again at a future date. But again, I just want to thank you so much for being here and being my guest this week. Absolutely.
Speaker: Well, and I would tell anybody who's thinking about starting their own firm. If you're thinking about it, do it. You never want to look back someday and go, man, I wish I would have tried that. I would say the risk of doing it is a lot less than you think.
Speaker: And I know we talked about that earlier, but but, you know, change is scary and ah you just have to be OK with that. But remember that nobody ever became successful by playing it safe. So take the chance.
Speaker: do it. If it's not your thing, don't do it. But if you're really thinking about it, pull the trigger. um But Mike, thank you so much. It's been a lot of fun to be here and I really appreciate it. Well, thank you. That is some great advice. And ah again, just thank you so much, Matt. I really appreciate it. And just a little advice for everyone else listening. Make sure that you know that you can get CPE credit just for listening to this podcast. All you have to do is visit the link in the show notes to get your credit. Or if you're already a Prime CPE subscriber, you could get the CPE credit at no extra cost. Just log in to finalize your credit. So that's it for this week. Thank you, everyone. And I hope to see you again at another future Becker Accounting Podcast.
