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Inclusive Leadership: The Double Bind, the Data, and the Future
37 Plays12 days ago
In this episode, we sat down with Dr. Wei Zheng, professor of management and leadership, to explore what inclusive leadership really looks like in practice. Wei shared her research on women leaders and the double bind they face: the pressure to project both competence and warmth. She also unpacked why leadership is less about title and more about adding values aligned with organizational goals. We dig into how AI might reshape inclusion by tracking participation gaps and surfacing information blind spots, and why systemic change, not just individual effort, is what moves the needle. Tune in for a thoughtful, grounded conversation about building workplaces where inclusive leaders can truly thrive.
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Transcript
Episode Announcement
00:00:01
Speaker
Before we dive in, we wanted to share that this will be our last episode for the summer. We're gonna be taking a quick break over the summer and we are planning on coming back in September with brand new content. The other thing is while recording this episode, we ran into some technical issues with the audio. Hopefully it's not too noticeable, but we just wanted to put that out there. Anyway, enjoy the show.
Introduction to Dr. Wei Zhang
00:00:30
Speaker
Welcome back to another episode of Hidden in Plain Sight, your podcast for all things Asian in the workplace. I'm Jenny. I'm Duke. And I'm Echo. Today, we're joined by our very special guest.
00:00:41
Speaker
Dr. Wei Zhang is a professor of management and the Richard R. Rossett Endowed Chair in Leadership at the Institute of Technology, where her research sits at the intersection of leadership and inclusion.
00:00:54
Speaker
She's published her work in leading journals and outlets like Journal of Management, Human Relations, and Harvard Business Review. She has a TED talk called Inclusion in Action, where she talks about inclusive behaviors that make people feel seen, heard, and empowered.
00:01:10
Speaker
ah She's interviewed over 120 executives as part of her research. And simply put, she's one of the leading voices on what it actually means to be inclusive or lead inclusively.
00:01:21
Speaker
So welcome to the podcast, Wei. Yeah, welcome. Is there anything else you want to add, Wei? No, I think that's a very nice introduction, Jenny. Thank you very much.
Dr. Zhang's Background and Leadership Journey
00:01:33
Speaker
Okay, so I think we can just jump right into the first question, which is Wei, could you tell us a little bit about your origin story? Like what got you into leadership research? Well, thank you. That's a wonderful question ah for me to think about because usually I usually was reflecting on my process before we started recording. I was reflecting on my process of thinking about this, thinking about, OK, usually when I give give speeches or workshops, it's never about me. It's about the work. It's about what I find and how it's relevant to people's work and how they can use the knowledge. And this time it's about me and I feel very uneasy. i think that might be my upbringing about not putting yourself in the center or self aggrandizement, but really it is a helpful process for me to think about, okay, what's my origin story. And I would say I'm originally from China and
00:02:25
Speaker
I'm an only child. And so for me, there's no normal practice of sparring with your siblings and negotiate and fighting and discussing and communicating that sort of skill development. I didn't have I started, I think I started to get leadership lessons in school or because the i was doing very well academically. And so since third grade, i started to be nominated by our teachers to take on some student leadership roles because I was seen as I could afford some non-academic activities because academics was the central piece in the Chinese educational system is
00:03:02
Speaker
So I had my training there. I made a lot of mistakes. So I was chosen to be student life representatives or academic representative, which is collecting homework, basically, or a student life representative for organizing social activities or representing the school to do something, to give a speech or to speak at the all school assembly. All of these were very scary experiences for me. And I made a lot of mistakes. um For example, i I thought authority was enough for leadership. Not the case with teenagers. So um I even offended my ah very good friend because I forcefully collected her homework without her consent.
00:03:42
Speaker
Wow. How? I know. Oh, wow. That didn't work. Even with my good friend. I was fortunate though, I had some teachers who gave me feedback and There was one teacher remember was a very stern one and she kept telling me I need to be more bold and assertive in Chinese to be more poor. literally it means just to be bold and spicy. And that's what she heard feedback to me because you're so soft spoken. So she nudged me. She gave me opportunities to speak in school assemblies and always prodding me to do something uncomfortable. So that was very helpful for me to learn some lessons.
00:04:22
Speaker
how to lead or how to stand out on your own and how to establish credibility and or to be seen by other people so that was very helpful i had another middle school teacher who actually thought i was so soft-spoken so she thought she thought of a method just for me she led me to her office she closed the door and she left and she asked me to shout at the top of my lungs in her office so nobody else could hear me. She thought that could cure me, cure my soft-spokenness.
00:04:53
Speaker
I don't think it worked, but it gave me the the impetus to think about, oh, how can I be louder, literally and maybe figuratively. I think for me, it was the college experience. In college and I was in the English language and literature department and we had a student organization and it's called the English Club where our goal was to help students practice spoken English. And so I was asked to lead that club. was a fun experience. I was able to ah recruit my own team. So from across campus. including my future boyfriend and i love find my roommates. and Authority. We were able to create all sorts of new activities that we we could thought of at the time. It was in the At the time, it was unconventional. like We start had open-air concerts and had people talk about instruments and music in English. um We had dances, we organized book sales. And we poached participants from other universities. So we were able to like increase our participants by tenfold.
00:06:01
Speaker
So for me, that was such a great experience. It was fun. It was creative. was helpful. People tell told me how useful that was. And I had a blast working with my roommates and and future boyfriend. So that was awesome. Such
Academic Pursuits in Leadership
00:06:15
Speaker
a good experience. So I got curious about, OK, what's the alchemy of leadership, like getting a group to work together? How do we catalyze the sort of motivation, inspiration?
00:06:26
Speaker
inspiration and where we we would go, what we can do together. And so that got me started. And so then after college, always thought I would be a journalist. And so I did an internship when I was in my junior year at ah the press. And I ah did a lot of stories. I was assigned to go to different places, interview people, do stories. But I didn't like it because he was i had a couple of days to pursue a story. And I have to speak in very authoritative terms on the newspaper about this particular thing. And I felt uneasy.
00:06:58
Speaker
I didn't do enough research. And my editor, of course, regularly changed my write-up without my consent. And so journalism was not for me. And so I started to pursue other things. And then I started to i went to the University of Minnesota to pursue first my master's degree in international education and then my doctoral degree later in human resource development, which is focusing on workplace learning. I started to do research on learning and organizational learning, knowledge management, that sort of thing, but which eventually led me to leadership because
00:07:32
Speaker
leadership seems to leaders, formal leaders seem to have a disproportionate influence on the outcomes. And when I interview people or do research, people point to their leaders as those who are exerting a lot of influence and and shape the outcome. So I studied leaders in small organizations, large organizations, in highly innovative R&D teams in national laboratories, um and even studied together with a student, the people, participants in the leadership development program in a lay minister, the Catholic diocese, their lay minister training program. So this variety of leadership experiences, exposure for me caught my attention and how the alchemy of leading works or how the alchemy of a group
Pathways to Leadership and Asian Professional Challenges
00:08:16
Speaker
of people works. Sorry, the very long answer to your question. Wow.
00:08:21
Speaker
Wei, can I ask you a question? um i caught this very earlier in your bio there. You were told that and basically your, forgot it's your advisor or one of the faculty members encouraged you to be Paula.
00:08:37
Speaker
And I know where you're coming from because i but believe we're coming from the same city. And the woman from that city is by Chinese standards, very polar, meaning like we're actually being very vocal, we're actually loud, and we we are the one that is spicy, that wanted to get on the hard things um with people.
00:08:57
Speaker
And so I'm curious, like, how does that translate? Because i for anyone, like, who, if they know the background of you, probably wouldn't say that that you are the one that is shy, that it doesn't to be a vocal, but I think the stereotype type of people from our city is actually quite aggressive by Chinese standards. So I'm curious how ah how that contrast and feels for you at a time.
00:09:25
Speaker
oh Well, I was very soft-spoken. I still think of myself as soft-spoken now, but I'm better, but still, um I'm not as assertive as I'd like to be. i don't identify myself as Chengdu Nis, purely Chengdu Nis, because I'm not. I'm 50% Chengdu Nis, and the other person is a Henan Nis.
00:09:45
Speaker
um So my paternal side and maternal side are completely different. And I wanted to share this story maybe later, or maybe now I can share it. So... My dad's side come from Henan province, which is northern China. It's more hierarchically gender inequality, more gender inequality. My my grandmother on my dad's side had bound feet. Yeah.
00:10:08
Speaker
It was very, very, very archaic. and yeah, tradition in China where women had to bound their feet so they become small when they grow up. And they it was very, I saw her feet before. it was, yeah, very painful and she couldn't walk far. but And she took care so she never had a career. She took care of my grandfather all her life, but she was a very smart, very hardworking woman. And then on the other side, my mother's side is completely the opposite. So my maternal grandfather was a priest.
00:10:41
Speaker
So from the more Western, more egalitarian gendered culture. And my grandmother grew up in that family and being very, very independent, very assertive. And she was taken care of all her life by my grandfather.
00:10:56
Speaker
it was quite a contrast in terms of family culture. And I see those two women living in the same city. and within like 30 minutes from each other, but they live completely different lives.
00:11:09
Speaker
So for me, that I think that sold the early seeds of gender inequality in me because I was able to see both that reality can be so different for the two of them. So coming back to your question, Echo, so I don't necessarily identify as Cheng Dong-Yi's. I'm sort of mixed.
00:11:28
Speaker
I'm sort of mixed.
00:11:45
Speaker
Where does the Minnesotan aspect part come in with this half and half? The Minnesota nice part. yeah Yes, yeah. The indirect part, right? the indirect part. The subtle part, right? Yeah. I like that you pick up the little pieces, elements of you and reassemble them in yourself as you go, right? It's hard to pinpoint what is the Minnesota part, what is the Chengdu Nguyen's part, but.
00:12:09
Speaker
I think we do pick up all the the places, the people. It's like my doctoral advisor, he used to say that ah you your advisor becomes part of you. That's true, you have the voice. You have their voice in your head. And her parents too, the place, the cultures, all the things become part of us. And so we are quite an assemblage.
00:12:32
Speaker
Wei, about origin stories, so one part of your research is on leadership or leader origin stories. So how leaders talk about and think about and narate narrate their own leadership ah stories.
00:12:45
Speaker
And we were wondering how might this apply to Asian professionals in the workplace? Because, you know, we're raised to be, for the most part, generally speaking, we're raised to be humble, you know, not to rock the boat, to deflect credit, to work hard,
00:13:02
Speaker
but don't you know don't be the loudest person in the room. And so I'm wondering, how do you think that might influence how Asian leaders talk about their own leadership identities?
00:13:15
Speaker
That was a wonderful question. um For me, from that from that research project where we ask people, how did you become leaders and that sort of thing, it is really opening up the options or possibilities of how people become leaders. I thought before the project, I thought, oh, maybe a lot of them are loud and assertive in the first place, and therefore they gravitate to toward roles that include leadership responsibilities. um But it turns out it's not necessarily like that. at least More than a half of the participants actually had different paths of leading to leadership. So a common understanding of how people become leaders is that, well, there are certain folks who are naturally more dominant, assertive,
00:13:57
Speaker
outspoken, and so they're more likely to be seen as leaders, which is true for some of the executives I interviewed. And there are also some related things, patterns. For example, some are chosen as leaders because they have special talents or they have the ability. They were seen by others as being able to offer helpful perspectives or resources or the ability to assemble, gather people together toward the same goal. But there's another pattern of executives, which is the most interesting, which is they were not anointed by someone else to become leaders. They actually decided to step up to solve a problem.
00:14:40
Speaker
or achieve a goal. For example, one person talked about while she saw conflicts between two large work groups at work and she decided to help mediate that conflict and she emerged as a leader from that experience. Or another person started an organization and she emerged as a leader like that. Or other folks, when they saw business opportunities, they um asked to take on, ah to try and approach or strategy that they thought would work. And they ah were seen as leaders from then on. So this is a group of people, the pattern, which I think gives a lot of agency to the people who actually is stepping and take up the actions. And I think a lot of us, especially those who are not naturally seen as leaders, maybe are more introverted or people who don't don't fit the profile, typical profile of these business leaders.
00:15:34
Speaker
And for them, there actually paths. There is a path to leadership, which is to find out what you're passionate about and what you'd like to achieve. What's your vision for an organizational community? And then start taking actions toward that.
00:15:49
Speaker
So that is the biggest learning for me. And I think it's very empowering for individuals who would like to take on leadership roles, but may think that their personality is not helping. But our actions actually can help.
00:16:02
Speaker
So it's less about personality, more about perspective and actions. I think my findings apply to Asian professionals a lot. For example, the study about pathways to leadership are relevant to Asian professionals because maybe some of the Asian professionals are likely to be seen in a stereotypical way as not loud.
00:16:24
Speaker
not assertive, not dominant. And so there are other pathways to it. For example, offering some special skills you have and highlighting those and connecting those two things that you can help the organization to achieve.
00:16:37
Speaker
And there's also the agency part that's becoming ah We can become leaders ourselves. We can start taking on actions or roles and try and experiment with different projects, different groups of people.
00:16:51
Speaker
And start to develop this leadership presence and to contribute to a group of people and be recognized as such. However, I'd like to say that um the cultural expectations or cultural upbringing of a lot of the Asian professionals could be um one part of their leadership story. There really needs to be another part to complement the the cultural part, which is because we're not likely to be automatically assumed to be assertive, strategic, decisive, or or dominant.
00:17:30
Speaker
So we need to be very clear or cognizant when we interact with people, especially those who are not familiar with us, and be sure to make it clear to them that we are humble and we are assertive.
00:17:43
Speaker
We are self-promoting.
Leadership Strategies and Inclusion
00:17:46
Speaker
We are other-promoting, and we can speak for ourselves too. And it's adding to our repertoire, of these skills and behaviors so we're not subject to cultural stereotypes and miss out on opportunities to take on bigger impacts for the organization. i remember one executive I interviewed who is an Asian woman and she worked most of her years in consulting so she has a lot of domain knowledge
00:18:17
Speaker
in general and then she moved into a corporation where there's a more specific knowledge that she doesn't have. And so when she moved into that position, she said, I made sure i'd do two things at the same time.
00:18:31
Speaker
One thing is I would be very humble, open to learning about that particular organization, their particular industry. And at the same time, I make it really clear to people, this is where I'm strong in. Like, I'm strong in connecting the dots. I'm strong in designing strategy.
00:18:49
Speaker
I'm strong in connecting different pockets of resources and people. So she said in every meeting she meets with the people, her new colleagues, she made sure to ask 10 questions. So she has these typical 10 questions. She makes sure she understands how their work context. She also made sure she has opportunities to talking about her past work experiences, her past knowledge, and how they connect, contribute to their current work together or their future work together.
00:19:18
Speaker
I thought that that is a very interesting and helpful example to think about that we don't have to completely change who we are. She's still humble and open and eager to learn from other people.
00:19:31
Speaker
And at the same time, she's also self-promoting. She makes it clear to people, here are my specialty and how I can help with the collective interest, our collective objective.
00:19:43
Speaker
And so she does both. And I think that really helped her to be seen as a credible and also inclusive leader. And and for me, I'm becoming more aware and conscious of making sure I do that. For example, in a meeting, I make sure to talk about how my knowledge and how my past experience contributes to the conversation, the topic that we're discussing, and also be very open to asking other people's opinions.
00:20:09
Speaker
um I think it's always a balance in terms of how much you do this and how much do that. And we just have to experiment with the balance in different work contexts. Maybe being some work contexts, you really need to be of spending more time asserting your competence. And in other contexts, maybe you're already seen as a leader and more of senior person, you want to spend more time indicating inviting others input.
00:20:34
Speaker
So that one is subject to context. We need to be really agile to the contextual demands.
00:20:51
Speaker
Well, I really like what you said about that there are different paths to becoming a leader because so often we're told that to be a leader in the corporate space, you have to be agentic, you have to be loud, you have to be all these things that sometimes go against or how a lot of Asians and even Asian Americans are raised in their culture. And so I'm i'm glad to hear that there are different paths that people can take. Based on the research that you did on leader origins, what is one recommendation you might make or give to, let's say,
00:21:21
Speaker
someone starting out in their career, especially if they are of our background and they are aspiring to be a leader like Yue. So a lot of times when I teach leadership classes and students usually wanted to know how do I get others to see me as a leader or to select me, elect me as a leader. and I think what's important is that you have to flip the question because leadership is not like, oh, I'm i'm the leader. Can you see me as a leader? It's more like, what do you want?
00:21:50
Speaker
Can I help you get to what you want? And I get this group to to do to get what they want or what is it we want to want as a group. And so to identify, to understand others, understanding other people, and then to get this group to work together. So for me, leadership is more from that perspective. It's finding the ah catalyzing individuals, aligning them, inspiring them, or organizing them, depending on what group of people you have.
00:22:18
Speaker
And then... people will naturally see us as leaders. So that's my personal perspective. um So I would say as but people who are who aspire to be leaders, understanding other people, understanding their needs and how you fit in and what is needed in the situation. i think that is kind of leadership. I want to share a story from one of my interviews. remember this executive and he said, well, once he's in a hospital setting, he said he was invited to leadership He was recruited to serve as a CEO of another hospital and was a bigger one, was a good opportunity, but he wasn't sure he wanted to take it because it was there was a very famous one, well-known, well-liked CEO before him. He wasn't sure he can fill in that person's shoe. And so he went to his he couldn't decide and he went to his mentor and said, oh, should I take this role or not?
00:23:11
Speaker
And his mentor said, oh, that's the wrong question to ask. His mentor said, the quiet question is what's your vision for this role? Because once you have a vision, if you have a vision, you should take this role and carry it out If you don't have a vision for it, it's not only should I take this job or not, it's about vision. If you don't have a vision for it, you can see whether where you want the organization to go, then don't take this job.
00:23:35
Speaker
So I think it's interesting to reframe it's thinking about, oh, should I be a leader in this situation to what can I do in this situation? What's the value added I can provide to the situation, to this organization or this group of people?
00:23:50
Speaker
so I thought that would be my advice for people who aspire to become leaders in various settings. Think about what what's important to you, what's important to you, what's your value added to this group of people. Sorry, Wei, we're quiet, I'm at least in awe and thinking about like when I interview for jobs or other roles, I have been asking that question, like, is this the right role for me instead of what is it that I can bring given my knowledge, my experiences,
00:24:19
Speaker
my leadership capabilities. So there's all these little neurons firing about, oh my gosh, have I been doing it wrong all this time? And I'm having this eureka moment with with you on the podcast with us where like,
00:24:36
Speaker
oh my gosh, I should be asking my leaders these things too. What vision do they bring to the organization? How do they see ah this and that fitting into and all this working together?
00:24:51
Speaker
Now, whether they were qualified for the job or knew the right people or you know had the best interview, but what is it they can do to enable others given their insight in previous experience and what they can do now.
00:25:08
Speaker
think that's wonderful. Wei, I see what you did. You changed the flow was ended question, yes or no, to an open ended one. That's right.
00:25:19
Speaker
Good afternoon observation there, Jenny. i like that. and like that. And i would also add there is this ah strong feeling that you already convinced yourself you are the leader. You just want in letting other people see you the same thing that you see yourself. So I think the powerful reframing comes from you already believe in you yourself versus the other one that you're trying to convince other people that you are the one. Yeah. yeah
00:25:50
Speaker
Thank you for the reflection. So for for me also, it's a self-serving thing because if I think about, oh, should I take that leadership role? It feels like because leadership is seen as higher status, oh, should I take a higher status role? And that's very uncomfortable for me.
00:26:08
Speaker
But if I think about it, oh what's my value added in that role? That lifts so much pressure off my shoulder. I feel like I'm still, I'm i'm helping. This helping frame is really helpful to think about, oh, what's what's my value? What can I do? What can I help in this situation?
Challenges for Women and Asian Professionals in Leadership
00:26:25
Speaker
and that's so much more proactive and less about position and status, more about value I can provide to be useful. And so for me, that's alleviating my nervousness, my anxiety or worry that people think, oh, this person is too ambitious. So we can reframe a lot of the questions, a lot of the ways we think about leadership to feel it's more authentic to who we are.
00:26:49
Speaker
That's so subtle and nuanced that in a way it's like I'm going to take control and position myself in a way where I'm not going to even entertain, you know, am I qualified or not?
00:27:05
Speaker
I am. and here's how it is. And how is it? I can help you. It's it wow. I was also thinking because so many times I walk into a situation and I'm thinking, wait, are they going to see me as a leader? Yes or no.
00:27:21
Speaker
Versus your recommendation is how can I make them see me as a leader? And I really like that reframing. because it's open-ended and it also, it's something that I can control.
00:27:32
Speaker
i can't control what they think, but I can control how I come across. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're actually taking the leadership role by thinking, what's my value added? Where should this group be going? Where should we be headed? what would be useful to our patients, for example, for a hospital and, or what would be helpful to our students? So in that realm is, are you already taking this leadership role? If informally, nobody can, nobody needs to anoint you. You are by, by acting in that way.
00:28:02
Speaker
I like that framing too. I feel it's very empowering to me. Like, You don't need to identify with the direction, but I'm trying. I'm doing what I can to provide value to the situation, not claiming this spot, this position, but I'm just trying to provide value to the situation. So that that that is very helpful to me, to not feeling pressured that I'm asking something that I shouldn't be asking.
00:28:25
Speaker
You know, um so another ah area of your research way is looking at women leaders and how they navigate the tension between being seen as communal, you know warm, stereotypically woman versus agentic, which is stereotypically male.
00:28:40
Speaker
And I feel like there's a lot of parallels or a lot of application for Asian women because Asian women also have to navigate that tension, especially because we're seen as not agentic and then highly communal or you highly submissive.
00:28:55
Speaker
And so I'm wondering how might that double bind play out for Asian professional or Asian woman professionals navigating the workplace and what what advice might you have for for people like that?
00:29:06
Speaker
Yeah, I so i did. Thank you for the question. It is a very interesting study because it's more like like a self-healing, self-therapy too. How do I navigate the workplace too? i want to hear from the best people or people I can find who are willing to talk with me. So I think it applies to Asian women. What I found is I had, I think I had a mixed group of mostly ah white women, but I had ah tried to diversify the participant pool. So i I did have different women of different ethnic and racial backgrounds.
00:29:35
Speaker
um and it seems it's very very, very common that women have to demonstrate their competence and to demonstrate their kind and caring nature for other people. So it there is a double bind for our asian for with Asian women in particular, maybe competence is not necessarily a strong area people would suspect that we don't have, but assertiveness, strategic vision, or deter decisiveness and things like that is assumed to be lacking in general in Asian women. So that would be another ah area that we would be faced with the necessity to demonstrate both.
00:30:12
Speaker
assertiveness, strategic vision, and caring, kind, and helpful. So I did that after doing that study. i have disseminated the findings and shared the findings in different venues, but I really didn't quite like it. It's like, oh, individual women should do all these things. But for men, it's not necessarily so. So by the way, just a little bit background on that particular study, i studied ah I started to study the women leaders,
00:30:39
Speaker
I interviewed 63 of them. But people kept asking me, what about men? What about men? Because these things may apply to men as well. And so I had to go out and find another 60 men who are similar to the women executives. And I compare the answers. It's so interesting. The men never have to say both. They usually just say, I'm i'm collaborative.
00:31:01
Speaker
They don't have to say, I'm collaborative and I'm confident. but Women have to say that. Isn't that interesting? Oh, okay. I thought there's no difference, but they they there are actually differences. Men never, rarely have to say both. like go I ask them, what are your characteristic leadership characteristics?
00:31:21
Speaker
And women will say, I'm competent and assertive and caring. And men will say, I'm caring or I'm a collaborative or something. I'm confident. they There's less need for them to demonstrate both, but there's more need for women leaders to do, to say, state, show, demonstrate both.
00:31:41
Speaker
um So coming back to your question for Asian women, I think it applies to women ah leaders a lot. And I think so that study actually drove um drove me slightly away from the topic of individual individual women's success strategies to organizational responsibilities. so So I shifted a little bit to study inclusive leadership because one leader,
00:32:05
Speaker
can have more influence on the group than individuals. And so if we can train leaders to become more inclusive, then we don't have to fix the women to get them to having to say both, to demonstrate both all the time. So so so in recent years, my research has shifted to more focused on, okay, the bigger question. So I one study, I look at gender equality practices in organizations, whether the practices, the policies, structures, or of norms, that would help men and women to have smaller differences in their career outcomes. And then another batch of studies really look at inclusive leadership behaviors. What specific behaviors practices do leaders engage in that actually give people a sense of belongingness, uniqueness, and authenticity in their teams?
00:32:54
Speaker
So that was an impetus for me to start thinking about the bigger question. How can we get leaders to be more inclusive? Yeah, how do we get the system to change it's not just the individual changing?
00:33:06
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I realize there are two parallel things we can do. One is helping individuals to understand the constraints put on them because of their backgrounds. um On the other hand, we can also work actively to change organizational stereotypes or prototypes or expectations of leaders.
00:33:27
Speaker
um I remember in one organization that i interviewed, and that organization is very much focused on expanding their leadership protocol or leadership prototypes to be more caring because So they're a healthcare care organization, so that sort of comes natural. So their leaders, they need demonstrate caring caring qualities to their team members and colleagues.
00:33:48
Speaker
And so I thought that would be a way to go if our all organizations add necessary attributes of leaders or expectations about caring, developing their careers, collaborative into their requirements or expectations, then the whole organization can benefit and individuals, all individuals in it can benefit
Fostering Inclusivity in Organizations
00:34:09
Speaker
from it. that there will be a larger, more leverage or more efficient way of changing the environment to help Asian women or Asian men to be successful.
00:34:19
Speaker
So Jenny pointed towards something, and um I was, I think, on the same similar mindset of changing the system through inclusive leadership.
00:34:31
Speaker
For the longest time, you know we we get trained on you know the the system, the the level of thinking, right? At the individual level, the organizational level, and the system level. And that we can't have individual solutions for systemic solutions problems We need systemic solutions for systemic problems.
00:34:53
Speaker
And as I'm hearing you speak and as I hear Jenny bring up, it's addressing the systemic issue when we bring in one inclusive leader, two inclusive leaders that perpetuate and bring others in that are aware of the constraints on the system, but purposely trying to go against it to bring others along.
00:35:21
Speaker
And that incremental add with each inclusive leader brings the organization along, brings the system along.
00:35:34
Speaker
And that's that's just my thought. That's that's it. And I was just thinking how your work influences one leader, two leaders, a hundred leaders, thousands leaders.
00:35:50
Speaker
And should they practice this, it changes the organization and should organizations practices, it changes the system.
00:36:02
Speaker
And I'm pretty sure like in that kind of corporate culture or the, the, uh, Institute can culture itself, it will further positive reinforce that caring message back to the quality of the service that the healthcare deliver, right? Like, so it's almost like a positive from the corporate culture itself, inference on the leadership styles, the inclusive leadership and um reinforce the reinforced message being caring to everyone. I like that.
00:36:36
Speaker
i love it. That's profound. That's profound. I love that. I love where you're going. That's your work. My dream is I can train a thousand inclusive leaders um and they can bring maybe just a snippet of it back to their organization. That's success for me. um So right now in the environment, the societal environment we're in, it the work is not going very well, but I'm hoping that it'll pick up. It'll pick up soon.
00:37:04
Speaker
I'm still building like, yeah, and inclusive leaders. That's why I focus on behavior. Jenny and I focus on practices because even if somebody who doesn't want to be inclusive or, or they don't see the value of in inclusivity, if they can behave that way, fine. It's fine.
00:37:22
Speaker
it's fine Because then they invite other, for example, at meetings, they invite people because it's a norm. You're supposed to invite everyone at the table to speak and contribute ideas. If the organization has the norms like that, we can even, oh, you can even not say convert, but even just get people to behave in that way. And then more people benefit from that kind of inclusive norms or culture.
AI's Role in Inclusive Leadership
00:37:46
Speaker
And you're right, the systems is hard, very hard to change too. But I have in my study of inclusive, and Jenny and I, my study in looking at inclusive leadership practices, there are some small things that people can do. Like at meetings, we just make sure we use round robins, making sure everybody has the chance to speak. Everybody's expected to speak. Or one leader said, I make sure everybody's on the agenda.
00:38:10
Speaker
So they have a chance to showcase their work. It's as simple as that. Or it could be having meetings. We'll have a meeting, have meeting notes for any remote meetings. Everybody can access it even if they can't attend the meeting. So it can be small things that leaders can change that's within their control. And that's what I wanted to focus on rather than changing the whole policy of the organization, which usually takes a long time and a lot of politics and which is a worthwhile effort. um But my effort hopefully is in the method domain. It's in the domain of leaders, things that leaders can usually have the autonomy to change and implement and experiment with.
00:38:55
Speaker
Wait, I have a question. So we have to address the skeleton in the room, which is the state of leadership in this political, sociopolitical, cultural climate.
00:39:06
Speaker
ah Where do you see leadership going and what would be your message to people who are trying to do inclusive leadership work in organizations where it doesn't really feel safe to do it right now?
00:39:18
Speaker
um I think there's so many thoughts. know where to start. I'm very discouraged by the current climate in terms of DEI work and or associating DEI work with inefficiency or favoritism or things like that. But I think inclusion itself, making sure we are leveraging everybody's talents,
00:39:39
Speaker
That is essential to organizational success. So i've been I've been creating materials for people to see the benefits of inclusion rather than to tell them. For example, one of the my colleague and I have been developing an inclusive leadership workshop for first-year students. So at the beginning, several years ago, we we did all the great lectures, showing them the numbers um and the practices, principles they should follow. And it sort of is there.
00:40:08
Speaker
People who already believed in that, they practice it. People who don't believe it, they don't practice it. ah Recent years, it's more like, let me show you. I don't even talk about DEI. I just show you, for example, using a hidden profiles exercise. where each person has unique information. They have some shared information. They also have unique information. You cannot solve the puzzle until it gets everybody's information, especially the unique information. So we created these finding a dog. Max, finding Max. Max is a dog and dog is missing. And some people saw him at the park and this trail, the mountain or something. So create this game. So people naturally see. So what I got from feedback from the other facilitators, we train other facilitators to run this parallel program for our students. And they say, oh, you know, by the end, we don't even need to talk about inclusion because it's obvious. It's obvious. The teams that were able to get information out of each person, they're able to solve the puzzle. And for teams who don't, they can't solve the puzzle correctly. So I have been, so i'm thinking, okay, can we show people the value? And there's a lot more work to be done to to help people to see why inclusion is important rather than associating immediately inclusion with other types of work.
00:41:30
Speaker
um I'm curious to get your thoughts on this way is how do you see the impact of AI on the inclusive leadership or vice versa? How do you see the inclusive leadership might do things differently for for the age that we're in?
00:41:48
Speaker
That's a wonderful question. That's a question I've been thinking about these days because I wanted to do some research in that front. So several areas. So one thing I'm curious about is how AI can help Inclusion, for example, in meetings like this, like what we're having, it's relatively easy to have a bot who can track how many minutes, how much airtime each person has. And maybe they can remind us at intervals saying, well, Wei has been speaking too much.
00:42:18
Speaker
Or Echo, we haven't heard from you as much. Would you like to share more? So these bots, these AI um bots or AI assistants, they can help with people identifying gaps, identifying information that hasn't been surfaced, but may be necessary for decision making.
00:42:35
Speaker
so I was hoping AI can help us do that. And i was I'm starting to work with a colleague in information systems to see, can we can we try that? Can we experiment with something like that and see whether that works or not? And maybe there are downsides, like inefficiency or getting unnecessary information or having difficulty for leaders to integrate the information. There could be downsides. So let's let's see how AI can help us or harm us. and So that's one area. And another area I'm looking at is um how human AI teams, because it's now rarely to have only human teams now. It's usually human AI and it's the trend, I think. So how leaders can facilitate inclusion in those teams, because it's no longer people, it's AI, how people interact with AI, how people trust or distrust AI's reports and things like that.
Episode Reflection and Conclusion
00:43:23
Speaker
How we use AI, I think, makes a difference in terms of inclusion or exclusion.
00:43:30
Speaker
Thanks for sharing that. I mean, I think there's so much to explore in this area. And we are so glad that we were able to have you on our podcast to talk about inclusive leadership and how it might apply to Asian and Asian American professionals in the workplace.
00:43:47
Speaker
We can truly tell that it's a calling for you and doing the work that you're doing.
00:43:54
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm having so much fun in my life, like doing this inclusive leadership research, working with you folks and being able to produce these training programs so I can use the research and also um to feed the questions from the training programs I do to my research. I'm having a ball of my life. I wish I could have got to this place sooner. But I don't see how it could happen given my one step at a time trajectory. But that's the only thing. But I i really like where I am right now. It doesn't mean it's 100% pleasant. There's still times like committee meetings or meetings. The umpteenth time of revising the manuscript, right? But in general, I'm so grateful that I have a job like this that can play.
00:44:41
Speaker
Really ah of a blessing to be able to do the work that you love. h So Wei, at the end of each episode, we read a haiku based on the topics or themes that were covered in the podcast or the episode.
00:44:53
Speaker
And Echo usually feeds... ah ChatGPT or Gemini or a Claude, um some of the topics, and it gives us a haiku. And so that's how we usually end the episode. We have covered so many rich topics. um I had a hard time choosing the one that fits the scenes like entirely. So I'm going to drop both of them. and I like to get way thoughts on which one is more representative of today's conversation. Echo, thank you for the haiku. I'll read the first one.
00:45:28
Speaker
Code shifts the systems, sparking change in unknown light. Fairness finds its way. Is it way, W-A-Y, or W-E-I?
00:45:40
Speaker
Oh. i think I think that's a good one to end with. Yeah. OK. all right. Well, I know we're over time, but Wei, thank you so much for spending your Friday afternoon with us. It was great talking to you. I'm a honored. Thank you for giving me the space. And the questions are so helpful for me to think, thinking through about my own trajectory and where I'm going. And thank you so much for all three of you for giving me the time. i appreciate it.
00:46:09
Speaker
Well, thank you listeners for listening. We'll catch you on our next episode of Hidden in Plain Sight, your podcast for all things Asian and the workplace. Thank you.