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Hayley Gullen - Drawn from Resilience: A Cancer Journey Through Cartoons
25 Plays9 months ago
In this inspiring episode, Hayley Gullen—cancer survivor, talented cartoonist, and soon-to-be published author. Hayley shares her deeply personal journey of navigating cancer treatment and how she turned to cartoons as a creative outlet to express her experiences and emotions. What began as a way to share her unique perspective on treatment has grown into a powerful body of work, resonating with others facing similar challenges.
We discuss how Hayley’s honesty and humour not only helped her heal but also captured the attention of a literary agent and publisher, leading to her highly anticipated graphic novel, set for release in 2025. Hayley talks about the power of art in storytelling, advocacy, and survival, proving that sometimes resilience can be drawn one frame at a time.
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Transcript
Hailey's Cancer Journey
00:00:12
Speaker
Good morning, Hailey. Hi, Bill. Thank you for agreeing to talk. um I'm fascinated to where your kind of, I want to say cancer journey, I want to say book journey now, is give a quick overview ah of yourself. people haven't Yeah, i should they maybe I should start by saying the reason we're speaking a second time is we recorded this episode a few months ago, but so much has happened since then.
00:00:38
Speaker
that it's out of date now so now I can talk more freely about everything that's happened which is great. um So I was diagnosed with primary breast cancer in May 2022.
Survivor's Guilt and Reflections
00:00:50
Speaker
I was 37 years old um so I found a lump in my breast. Thoughts of nothing off it of it just thought oh I'll go and get it checked um and it was something so thank goodness I went. um And I had eight rounds of chemo I had breast conserving surgery, I had 15 doses of radiotherapy and 13 cycles of cad-sila after that. And now I'm on tamoxifen and a couple of other bits and bobs. there's always There's always something isn't there in the long-term with cancer. I've got a bit of lymphedema in my right arm as well as a side effect of the surgery.
00:01:31
Speaker
um but I'm managing that okay. um So medically, that's where I am. I finished active treatment just over a year ago.
Managing Lymphedema and Staying Active
00:01:40
Speaker
Shall I talk a bit about my comic then as well now? Well, no, i was got I was gonna ask, how would you I mean, that's a long list of things that you've had to kind of like go through. We actually didn't discuss a lot of that last time, but how are you actually feeling right now? Because that's a lot you've been through.
00:01:57
Speaker
It is, yeah. Pretty good. Do you know what? It was actually, um last Friday was my two years cancer free anniversary and I completely forgot about it. I only noticed, I only realised a couple of days later, it completely passed me by, which I think says a lot. Is that actually progress? Is that, you know, you might feel guilty or people might make you feel guilty because you've not celebrated, but is that, is it actually quite, you could see it in another way that like, that's a good thing that it's kind of,
00:02:25
Speaker
fading away a little bit maybe it is absolutely i have unfortunately
Early Detection and Follow-up Care
00:02:30
Speaker
lost three friends to cancer in the last two months as well which is really awful um so is there a bit of survivor's guilt there maybe um it's lots of complicated emotions isn't it um Get realising I had lymphedema a few months ago was a big shock. I was really hoping to avoid that. But so that's when you get a chronic swelling in your hand and arm and that's obviously my drawing hand. So I was very worried about that. But I've been to the lymphedema clinic. I'm managing it well. I wear a compression sleeve at night. I've started swimming regularly um and exercise is good for all sorts of reasons. But that is something that can really help.
00:03:08
Speaker
manage it so I've come to terms with that and I haven't had to go back for checks for a while now like every time you find a little lump or whatever you contact the breast nurses you go in I haven't had to do that for a good few months now so I think that's his progress. ah you How old were you in in 2022 when you were diagnosed did you say? 37 and I just turned 40. So yeah I saw the um did you go you went um was but I saw a party. Yeah, yeah i had a party I had a big birthday party for my 40th, which is great. Yeah, that's cool. What's the scores regards kind of like follow up for you? Because I mean, I kind of had to check in with my oncologist every year. do Are you getting mammograms now? Is that a thing? or Yeah, I get an annual mammogram and that's it as opposed in terms of regular check-ins. And then I'm still under the breast clinic for another few years so I can
00:04:08
Speaker
get seen quickly if I have any worries,
From Novels to Comics
00:04:10
Speaker
but in terms of routine things, it's it's only the annual mammogram now for me. Yeah. I kind of wondered, I mean, ah you know, it's obviously it's completely different for men, but, um, I do, you will, you will have that continuously now until you, you step into the normal screening kind of program, I guess. I mean, that's good. Cause obviously, yeah, that's good. That's good. That's what I want. I want to need some kind of like risk awareness and then diagnostic tool. Cause obviously, you know,
00:04:42
Speaker
the young you are, dense breast tissue, all that kind of thing. did that Did that factor in at all when you were diagnosed? Did that delay your diagnosis at all? No, I was diagnosed very quickly.
00:04:56
Speaker
um I remember when I went in for my examination,
Social Media and Book Deals
00:05:01
Speaker
ah the surgeon said, oh, I won't send her for a mammogram because she's younger than her desks to bre ah breasts are dense but when i her dense breast But then when I went to the radiology department a couple of hours later, they they said, yep, you need a mammogram, you need a biopsy. So they they spotted something that, because he couldn't spot that, that you needed to do the you know the scan to actually see it but they clearly he saw something of concern. So what was the first kind of scan that you got? was o It was radio, so I was had a physical examination from the surgeon first, he he could feel the lump, he then referred me across to
00:05:42
Speaker
radiology, they did the breast ultrasounds, that's the one, isn't it? I was kind of curious,
Authenticity and Humor in Cartoons
00:05:50
Speaker
but thats I mean, that's kind of like, that's probably how in in younger women, how the system should work, rather than just turning them away. and just Because obviously, at the back of that doctor's mind, they were probably thinking, too young for a mammogram.
00:06:05
Speaker
Yeah, I think the first time he examined me, he probably assumed it wasn't cancer. I mean, he said as much because statistically, it was unlikely to be cancer, but I was the anomaly, wasn't I? And he did the right thing sending me for the extra test because he said and he did say any lump can be anything. So I will send you for these tests just to be sure. And that was obviously the right thing to do.
00:06:26
Speaker
Yeah, no it's ah that's that's reassuring that that the system kind of like worked that way absolutely. Oh yeah, i was about I know it's not the same for everyone but I felt taken seriously by the GP, by the surgeon, by everyone and I was diagnosed
Getting Published through Social Media
00:06:40
Speaker
within two weeks one week or no two weeks of my GP appointment. yeah which is amazing. yeah um It's fucking shit, but it's amazingly effective. yeah yeah And you know i mean i'll I can repeat the exact same thing, which but again, like weirdly, you and I are kind of similar in that way, because we're like the the minority, we're the anomalies that kind of like normally get will get missed. How old were you when you were diagnosed?
00:07:11
Speaker
I mean I was 44 but obviously just being a bloke under the age of 60 or being a woman under the age of 50, it can be a battle. I mean obviously you will have spoke to people and and I know I've definitely spoke to people where that that's a major issue um
Technical Aspects of Cartoon Creation
00:07:31
Speaker
in this country. I think it's getting better with awareness because I think a lot of doctors They just, the because they've not seen younger women or younger men with lumps, they just assume, they've got no reference point. in my i think you know I think it's good that you know we can we can share our stories. i I know a couple of surgeons follow me, or GPs, but they're the people that
00:07:57
Speaker
No, but yeah right lady So it's we need to obviously educate the people that don't know that's the that's the kind of dream That's what I'm kind of like looking for so on to the the juicy the juicy stuff I'm kind of concerned about your hand that like are you taking any? um not not I'm not bringing this up to obviously concerning
Balancing Career and Family
00:08:20
Speaker
you, but are you are you learning to draw with your other hand? No, I can draw with it. um So when I was first diagnosed with lymphedema, I could tell, I think my my right hand was twenty about 20% bigger than my left hand, which I could see, the swelling was very obvious. But I have been, so I saw the lymphedema nurse and I was taught to manage that with self-massage, exercises, compression, garment,
00:08:47
Speaker
And I had a follow-up appointment recently and it's gone downloads. You'd only notice it really if I pointed it out to you. It's not something you'd notice if you just met me casually. um So I can draw still, it's fine. As long as I take, you know, I'm a bit more careful to take regular breaks, um but no, it's...
00:09:07
Speaker
whats Once I learned how to manage it, it became okay. And
Breast Cancer Awareness and Pink Washing
00:09:10
Speaker
luckily my case is mild. So don't worry, I can still draw. Yeah. and In case anyone doesn't know, it's a it's a case of once lymph nodes are removed from the armpit, you're at risk of lymphedema, isn't it? so And it's a chronic swelling, essentially, because your lymph fluids don't drain drain as effectively as they did before. Ah, right. so i as effectively really shows me that you can manage it and help it and yeah ease it. So that's good. Cause I just assumed it being a chronic condition, that it was something that you literally, it would which just continuously be there, but that's not the case. Well, it is there. It's just something I have to manage. So if I don't take care of my arm, it risks swelling up again. So if I do all the things to take care of myself and my arm,
Impact of Personal Cancer Stories
00:10:00
Speaker
I should be all right. um But I sort of view it a bit like, you know, a toothpaste tube, when you're trying to squeeze the bit out at the end, that's sort of what might happens to my hands sometimes. I just have to sort of move all the fluid down, yeah which is a bit gross, but, you know, we all overshare now as cancer survivors, don't we? this that This is our community. Welcome to the community. Well, um actually, that's one of the things I kind of, you know, I'll see your your stories pop up and I'm like,
00:10:29
Speaker
theres like you You get, your engagement on social media is like, is it is amazing. And I think thank you your, i you're kind of brutal brutally honest about the treatment that you went through. And obviously the other thing is that the the uniqueness of how you're delivering that information, it seems to really
Publishing in Medical Journals
00:10:50
Speaker
resonate with people, you know, via your cartoons. I know, um remind me because i'm pretty certain you said you this is your your cartoon drawing is is is only since your diagnosis is that right well i've always doodled like my whole life i've always liked drawing but i've never um really committed to a big project before because i was trying to make it as a writer like writing novels i've written five novels failed to get any of them published um
00:11:21
Speaker
During cancer treatment, I had this, because it's so dehumanizing, the whole process, you're you're seen as a patient, I went through chemo, so I lost my hair. I just felt like i wasn't see i just felt this urge to express myself. And i I felt like I was looking for a way to express myself. I just felt there was something missing, there was something I needed to do.
Frustrations with Healthcare System
00:11:40
Speaker
And I found out that my surgeon was going on paternity leave for a couple of weeks.
00:11:46
Speaker
um and I really liked my surgeon, but he he was very kind, but also quite distant and sort of, you know, as you, as you expect. um And I just had this idea to draw him a card of um his baby passing him a scalpel as he was about to operate on me. So it's quite a funny little cartoon card. And he loved it. And he he wrote about it in my medical notes. And that just made me think, oh, that's interesting. Cartoons are a really effective way of communicating. And you know it was a nice card to give someone, but it was also a way of telling him something about me and expressing something that we didn't have the time to cover in that short appointment. you know by ah he knows you know He knows all his patients and people. but
00:12:27
Speaker
they're under so much pressure aren't they? um
Influencing Patient Care and Medical Practices
00:12:30
Speaker
So the what the way it was received um just made me think there was something there and I was just burning with an urge to tell my story and that there wasn't really anything quite like what I was doing so um I started work on the book um and I completed the book about a year ago. I got an agent, a literary agent in the summer and now I've got a book deal so that's pretty awesome, thanks cancer.
00:12:58
Speaker
I mean, if if there was an example of kind of like how cancer can change your life in a positive way, there's there's another example. I think it's amazing. I think it's, well, I think it's really important that we share stories like this and and encourage people to, if they have some kind of burning desire to go and do something, you know it might not work out, but why not use your diagnosis as an excuse to go and kind of do it?
00:13:26
Speaker
Yeah exactly, exactly. Life's too short since we know all too well. I mean that obviously this is part of being in the community that you do, we lose, we lose people. Everyone in the community is kind of contributing in a small way towards kind of like trying to make the whole beyond the community better I think. I know that's definitely my kind of like goal. um The idea is to kind of like as well as supporting people in the communities to stop people entering the community almost it's kind of like we don't want people to be part of this amazing club but if you are make the best of it. yeah of thing yeah i So come on then, obviously when we spoke last you were on the verge of the publishing deal
00:14:08
Speaker
I was on the verge of getting an agent, I think actually not the publisher. Oh, right, okay. I know it was, you were, it was so, you were like, yeah, I can't really mention that. I can't mention that either. I can't mention that and I was like, okay, that's, because obviously but I think people are genuinely interested in in how you've done it. Yeah. Obviously they know your motivation. What was the thing that kind of like had the biggest impact on actually, you know, getting the agent and getting the publisher from your point of view?
00:14:35
Speaker
Well, I think the engagement on an Instagram has played a big role in that. And it's quite funny because I was never on Instagram. I only joined it for the first time a couple of years ago because someone said to me, you should be on Instagram to promote your art. And I thought, oh, social media is evil, but OK, fine. And I got on it and I thought, oh, actually, I've got an opportunity here because obviously that's where the cancer community is mainly online is Instagram.
00:15:00
Speaker
um and I could see straight away I was so i was building a following um through because my work resonated so much with people that you know what you want on Instagram is shares and people were sharing my my work a lot which is great. um Then it turned out one of my followers is um the mother of the culture editor of the eye paper and so I got approached by the eye paper um saying would you like to do a feature about your work and I was like yes brilliant so they ran a feature about my work and then which I wrote and then I was approaching agents you have to submit um you know samples of work your work to agents to try and get them to take you on because you you need an agent usually if you want a traditional publishing deal I know you went the self-publishing route but I wanted to have a see if I can have a shot at the traditional route first
00:15:54
Speaker
um So I'd been pitching to agents and then I followed up with a few of them after my piece came out in the eye to say, look at me, I'm in the eye paper, FYI. That resulted in a couple of offers actually from agents. um But the one I went with Julia, i when I spoke to her, she said, Hayley, I know exactly who I can sell your book to.
00:16:21
Speaker
and and she was right, she did sell it to them. um So I think it was Instagram, it was getting in a national newspaper certainly helped because agents get overwhelmed with, I mean, they just, their inboxes, they just get so many submissions all the time. It's like, I knew my work was good. i I needed to find a way of getting in my head above the power pit. So Instagram in conjunction with the piece in the news in the newspaper,
00:16:49
Speaker
is what really got me there I think. Yeah I mean it sounds like your agent they knew, agents want to find a good product and and they they have a person lined up for it I think that was you know. Yeah they need to know they can sell it yeah. The publisher you know not all publishers are going to look favorably on all um you know publications are at the end of the day so I think your agent's done an amazing thing. So it comes out next year doesn't it? Was it is it May or June? I feel like it's No, it's September in the UK and November in the USA. Next year? Yeah. It is finished though, isn't it? Yes, at the moment I have to redo all the lettering. So look so I have to make so quite a few technical changes just to prepare it for print. I did notice, I didn't make a comment, but I did notice on Instagram you are now using a font rather than your handwriting. yes yeah not the fon Is that the font that you you need to substitute in the book?
00:17:46
Speaker
ah I'm doing so I'm doing it in my own handwriting still but they wanted they want me to submit a font as well in case they sell translations um so that's why I want me to be to do a font but it's it's quite cool I've never done a font before and I was quite pleased with it so I'm using it on quite a few things now. Ah now so um is that font that font isn't the font I've seen is not your handwriting though is it because you can do a you can make your own handwriting into a font can't you Yeah, that is that's when I drew myself. Oh, right. It looks it looks quite... It looks a bit different, yeah. Yeah, it looks quite um kind of regular. It doesn't look... Well, I guess because each letter is identical now, so it will inevitably inevitably look a bit more regular. But also, I tried really hard to make it neat harder than I tried on some of my old posts. I think your handwriting was...
00:18:41
Speaker
i quite lot your I like your handwriting, it's it's very readable. Thank you. I'm surprised. I mean, obviously, i've because I've got a background in kind of like design and graphics, ah you know it intrigued me. caught It's something I spotted quite quite early on when you switch from your handwriting to the font. And I was like, oh, I wonder what the kind of like backstory is behind that. Most people aren't going to care, but I was kind of curious.
00:19:05
Speaker
um yeah the translation bit is kind of it's quite interesting i mean have you are you gonna have to make any bubbles big as ready to yeah possibly there there might be further work for me to do because you know all those words you draw that in comics like splat and bam and pow like they can't buy the font that they're different from the font they'd have to be redone so it could be quite a lot of work but i mean it'd be if it's if it's work to get it into more countries that's gonna Oh, absolutely. I'd be more than happy to do that if they sell divides to and in translation. Absolutely. But we'll just have to wait and see. So so what are you kind of working on now? you've got If you've got the publisher in the summer and then it's you've got till September next year, are you relaxing now? Are you doing anything with regards to the book?
00:19:56
Speaker
Well, I'm still finalising the text for the pages. So my deadline for that is in a couple of weeks. I'm nearly there though, that's fine. um Then it's going to go to a copy editor. um So now there might be a few edits after that. um Then I think it will all be done by end of January, um because then they need a few months to prepare to sort out the printing and all that. and And then at some point next year, I'll speak to the publicist and we'll sort of ramp up the promotion, but they said that would be quite close to the book publication date. So probably September is when it all starts. But in the background, I'm trying i'm i'm working on building relationships and you know people who might give me endorsements and just making sure people know about me in my book is is sort of what I'm doing.
00:20:44
Speaker
yeah how does it differ because obviously if you've tried to get a text-only book published how how is it kind of like once you've got the finished article how is it how is it different or is it or isn't it different but you know graphic novel versus you know textbook is it just the same process or well i haven't been through because i've not had a prose book published i don't really know but i imagine they wouldn't involve me in the design and layout as much as they are because, you know, that's...
00:21:18
Speaker
you know if If you're just supplying the words, the publisher, their designer takes care of everything else, but they are involving me a bit in the, normally with like, ah say the cover design, they um they just do it themselves. um And they have a designer that's leading on that now, but they are very much involving me in that process because they want my artwork on the cover. So I am getting a say in that. And I'm looking at- They can't put your book out without your your imagery on the front. Absolutely, and they know that, yeah.
00:21:47
Speaker
Yeah so I am being involved in that process. I haven't seen the um any mock-ups yet but um I will soon I'm sure and I'm looking forward to it. I'm sure yeah I'm sure that's going to be one of the most kind of exciting unveilings. I was going to say is there another book in you but I mean I think you've done you probably that was a daft question because I know you're in the middle of it you're in the thick of this one aren't you still really i do I have an idea for my next book but I will be very boring and say I don't want to talk about that now. I'm doing the same trick now aren't I like asking too far ahead. I mean I'm so um i'm just so pleased. is it Is there any other kind of like non-book related kind of activities that you want to kind of do post-diagnosis? Is there is there a Himalayan track in you? is there a No.
00:22:38
Speaker
ah that I feel I've entered a career as a cartoonist now and I just want to develop that. like i so i have a I have a day job, I'm part-time, I work as a fundraiser so I write grant proposals for charities around looking after my daughter who's six now and I really enjoy doing that.
00:22:56
Speaker
But so I've been doing that with doing a bit of cartooning on the side the last couple of years. But now I'm a cartoonist trying to fit in my bra, rising around everything. And, you know, I really enjoy that work. Still, I want to keep it up. But I want the cartoon that ah stuff to be more and more of what I'm doing. But financially, I have to make that work, obviously.
00:23:17
Speaker
Yeah, I was just looking, there is no option as you've put you got artists down on your um on your profile, but could you could put cartoonists there. I don't think cartoonists is an option. I think I could either go for artist or author and neither of them quite know. I'll put it in the description. yeah so i think I think it's obvious in my profile what I do though, isn't it? so ah think it's I see a lot of people who like venture into new territory and then they're kind of like, they hesitate about using the proper. Oh yeah, I really have. um Imposter syndrome. Yeah. Yeah. um So, you know, i um I think it's quite good that you're like, yes, I'm a cartoonist. That's, I mean, everything's going in the way that like, it's just going to go from strength to strength. October.
00:24:10
Speaker
can be a difficult monster exciting month, exciting months, emotional months. How, obviously we're in November now, how was, um how was October for you? Was that a, is that a daft question? Is that? No, not at all. I mean, I was very aware of breast cancer awareness, obviously. No, I wouldn't say I'm particularly emotionally affected by it. I would just say I do get irritated by all the pink.
00:24:40
Speaker
Um, as I'm sure, I'm sure you have an opinion on that as well. You know, well, look, right. Like I'm, I'm not daft. I've got accents of pink. I'm like, I'm going with it. It's, it's just, I think there's no getting away from it. Let's be honest. Yeah.
00:25:00
Speaker
And I feel the pink washing thing does irritate me. Like if if companies give a significant proportion of their profits away, okay. I still don't love the pink, but okay. But if they're just using it as sort of, you know, a veneer to make them look more caring than they are, I think it's really irritating.
00:25:22
Speaker
I agree. I, yeah, I agree. Have you had any experience directly? with pink washing, brands, companies.
00:25:36
Speaker
Oh, I don't want to get into that. and ah there's There's particular brands that um irritate me about this, but I i think i I don't want a bad mouth anyone. You've got a public persona now that you need to protect and they could sponsor your book or something. like You just know that idea. um ah Did anything significant happen? Oh, so when when did you, well, you got your publisher in September. So like,
00:26:03
Speaker
Well, I actually, I agreed, I accepted the offer back in the summer, but it takes a while to get contract stuff um sorted out. So there was quite, um so I didn't, I couldn't really tell the world about it until I'd actually signed the contract. So that's what happened in September. Yeah. Would you recommend going the route that you did when it cook came to your book?
00:26:24
Speaker
It really depends. So you say, it's interesting to hear you say, self-publishing is so much easier because i I look at everything you have to do, marketing, distribution, designing the cover, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The benefit of a traditional publisher is they do a lot of that, in certainly terms of distribution.
00:26:45
Speaker
um and making it look nice. like I don't know how to design a book cover. you know I can draw cartoons. i don't ah i um'm I'm not a graphic designer. you know um So um I'd say the hard thing about getting a traditional publishing deal is getting it. It's taken me 15 years to get to this point because I've written five novels before, failed to get them published. you know That's fine. You've got a tape rejection on the chin. That's just how it goes.
00:27:15
Speaker
um So I think your book works because you it it's come up from a community so you have an obvious audience to sell it to. um You can say the same about my book um but I think the reason I wanted to try for a traditional deal before taking the self-publishing route is that I think it has potential to reach a very large audience, you know it might not but
00:27:46
Speaker
I can only do that with ah a big publisher behind me. um If I have a chance to reach for the stars, I wanted to take it. um So, you know, they've got that engine behind them. They've got the links with, them map that they've got an American office, you know, they know how to sell translation rights, all that kind of stuff. I i can't do by myself. yeah um So that's why, you know, you probably get a, you know, you'll get a larger share of the income by self-publishing, but then I'm essentially paying them to do that work for me. Yeah, yeah they need to be compensated. like I get that. Yeah. mean I donate or just... for Yes, of course, of course. yes It's all for charity, isn't it? I donated 100% of that. In fact, I probably, I topped it off a little bit, so it would it was rounded up. so um But yeah, I mean, that was... again because I had originally announced that book in October and I was like it was on the back of someone say talking about pinkwa and i was like i'd be it be kind of like two-faced of me to kind of like chrisize pink washing and take a cut of the book for me so yeah yeah you know it made sense from my point of view you celebrated your 40th birthday was that was that a combined 40th and celebrate the book publisher thing or did you have another celebration did you celebrate
00:29:11
Speaker
the book I sort of It was sort of it was always gonna be my 40th birthday party and then it was Oh, I've got a book deal. Let's celebrate that as well. um I'm sure I want more celebrations I feel like i've I'm still I'm working on my deadlines once I've got my deadlines out of the way um And I want to have a ah launch party How Whether I, I would like a massive launch party, but the question is, well, who's going to pay for it? So I'll have to see. I'm guessing they'll probably want you to pay for it, but you know, a nice launch party would be a good, a good thing. it would get Yeah. be Yeah. i i Yeah. That would be brilliant.
00:29:51
Speaker
um And it's interesting, I've just said about how, you know, the great thing about having a publisher is that they do a lot of that distributing distribution but still ah it's it's become very clear to me that I need to be very active in that process too. I need to be the one driving relationships, getting myself out there, talking to people, like doing this today, um because I can't sit back and let them do it all because i i it's about me, it's my story, it's my relationship. so
00:30:22
Speaker
I think my book will be more successful if I, you know, keep posting on Instagram, keep, you know, building my profile and building a community around me. Yeah. What do you think you would have done if, if you hadn't of kind of like, not stumbled upon the cartoon and do you do you think you would have been working on something different kind of? Well, actually before I, um,
00:30:47
Speaker
did the cartoons. i e i'd I'd started dabbling in screenwriting and I'd actually written a pilot episode of a sitcom about having cancer. um What was it called? I didn't have a title yet. It was my first attempt. It had some good jokes in it but it wasn't the right medium. I think I did it because I realised I had a story to tell but it didn't quite jail in the way, I was hoping. um And then I came to cartoons. And the great thing about cartoons and comics is it's a very, like, the comic scene is is is fueled by self-publishing, like everyone produces their own scenes. The whole ethos of comics is you could just do it yourself and get it out there, um however you can. And I think if you want to get a TV show made, I mean, that's a very big process with lots of people, lots of risk.
00:31:43
Speaker
and it's like, don't want to do that, or I just want to get my story out there now, I'll do a comic. I mean, you never a know, there can be a comic to TV conversion quite easily, I imagine. Yeah, possibly, or a film, that'd be awesome, yeah. Well, let's aim for the movie then, never know. Exactly, yeah. You know, Apple, Amazon, if they're if they're interested, and it get it something. Contact my agent, yeah. I mean, that's quite a cool thing to be able to say, isn't it?
00:32:12
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I don't want to be talking about cancer forever i because something I said to my agent when I met her for the first time was, I, you know, whatever I do next, I want it to be not be cancer because I've got one cancer book in me. This is it. But I don't want to be pigeonholed into only talking about this. Well, I every time I spoke to you, it feels like that's why I made a point of asking about your diagnosis at the beginning, because I feel like we don't actually talk about cancer. We're actually talking about the book about cancer, not about cancer. So. Do you know what I mean? I don't actually feel
00:32:49
Speaker
I don't feel our conversations are about cancer. I feel they're about like seeing an opportunity, like finding a creative outlet. Oh yeah, our conversation today, but in terms of, um you know, I'm talking about cancer every day on my Instagram page and um I will when I hopefully get publicity and do more podcasts and and interviews and that kind of thing. And I'm happy to do that. I just don't want to be doing that in 10 years time. I want to be onto the next thing by then.
00:33:19
Speaker
So what is the, um obviously you bring up quite a lot of different topics when it comes to cancer. Let's ah let's ask the cancer question. what's the What's the one kind of like topic or subject or awkward moment or situation that has kind of like resonated the most with but the community? In terms of my what I've shared. Yeah. I think it's when I share posts about what to say to someone. I did a post which is any statement that starts with at least just don't say it like you know you're going through chemo and your friend says to you oh at least you're losing weight you know you know that would be an incredibly insensitive thing but any and I certainly have people say things to me like um
00:34:06
Speaker
Oh, at least you won't lose your breast or at least it didn't happen to your daughter or whatever. No one actually said that to me, but I've heard people who've had, you know, yes, it would be worse if it happened to my daughter. That would be awful. But just because the worst thing hasn't happened doesn't mean that what I'm going through now isn't awful. And I just want you to recognize what I'm going through is so grim and just sit with me in that discomfort because i think I think where it comes from is people find it hard to sit with someone in their discomfort that that can be triggering or whatever for I understand and people want to try and make it better with words because they don't like to see me suffer they're trying to cheer me up but the thing is any bright side they can put come up dredge up
00:34:49
Speaker
I've already thought ah of. they're not going to If it could be solved with words, we wouldn't be here, would we? it's just Some things are just grim. You have to endure them. You want people to be there alongside you. There's no right words to say. What you want is to be listened and acknowledged. And so I think my posts that resonate the most are the ones where I'm talking about that. And actually another interesting thing is that my book is really very much about my active treatment but I am sharing more stuff on Instagram now about where I am now on my camp cancer journey. I hate that phrase, but there we are. um You know, it's lymphedema. That's that's a arisen since my active treatment. um How I'm feeling about myself and my body a couple of years out. um All that kind of thing is is sort of sparking conversations too. Yeah. what um What should we call it instead of cancer journey?
00:35:45
Speaker
i I don't know. I mean, it's one of those things, it's an annoying phrase, but it's also quite accurate. Why is it annoying, do you think? Because a lot of people say this. I think it's a bit of a cliche, I think, but then cliches are true often. It's like, I hate being called a patient. I was like, no, I'm not a patient. I'm a person. But it's also fine to be called a patient within the context of the NHS, because I am a patient or was a patient, but it still annoys me. It's just a contradiction. It's like there's no
00:36:17
Speaker
as I think it's good to be mindful of language and try and find better terms, but I'd hesitate to say, this is the right term to use because I think it's different for everyone. Like I'm fine calling myself a survivor. I know some other people don't like that word, but I'm personally, I'm okay with it. You know, that's just personal opinion. Yeah. It's a real complicated thing. And I think the only way it can probably improve is we talk about it more.
00:36:43
Speaker
Yeah and I think ah because when someone says to you oh at least this at least that it's just it's very isolating because you don't feel heard or acknowledged and that's why it's painful. What's the exact thing that's kind kind of going through your head when they say at least you're getting a free boob job?
00:37:03
Speaker
Well, I didn't get that one because I kept my boot luckily, um but um it's you're not listening to me, you're not acknowledging me, you don't understand. That's that's the kind of thoughts I i was having um because if it felt like they were minimising my pain and sort of skating over it as opposed to properly acknowledging me and listening to me. Yeah, I don't know. it's ah it's ah It's a weird thing. At the end of the day, I think as long as we can get more conversations started about about it in more mainstream places. It's got to improve with understanding because I think a lot of it is just like, it's ah it's ignorance and not in a bad way.
00:37:43
Speaker
And I found myself, I didn't want to get all, well, they don't understand me. So I'm going to make them feel awful. I didn't want, I wanted to be trying to be compassionate because people didn't know what to do. They felt they were, they're sort of adrift. And if they were being clums, some, but some attempts to like connect with me were very clumsy, but if they came from the right place, I wanted to, you know, be compassionate back and, you know, acknowledge that they were trying. And I think that's, that's really hard when you're going through cancer because that's enough for anyone to go through. but yeah to try and offer them that generosity I thought was really important. But it it can be hard because I know you know you could have five interactions with five different people and they can all be clumsy. Yeah. And then you you've got to personally kind of process that yeah whilst thinking about
00:38:35
Speaker
you know the reality of your future or what you're going through that at that moment. So it's incredibly complicated. um I guess you'll educate people a lot. I hope so. I think the feedback I've got, so people who've read it, who've had cancer themselves, or just who've seen my posts say it helps them feel less alone. um And I think my book will be um a yeah sort of a die because I walk as you read it you'll walk through my entire treatment journey and how I felt and at different points and that's a great thing about the comics ah medium because you can see me going through a situation and there's a thought bubble so you can see what's in my head at the time and it might not be what you expect. so um So I think that will be educational for you know people who care for their loved ones and also hopefully doctors and nurses as well. um So yeah I think it will
00:39:34
Speaker
shine light on it in a way that hasn't been done in quite that way before. Yeah. What was the hardest chapter or chapter? Is it chapters? It's not divided into chapters section. What was the hardest section to kind of write and kind of was there a section that was really really difficult to do?
00:39:58
Speaker
Yeah, to tell my story accurately, I needed to bring up quite a few difficult situations and difficult feelings. And actually, the the thing that was most upsetting about my cancer experience, I'd say, was not was not the diagnosis, wasn't even chemo. It was the way I was treated when I went for radiotherapy. So I um had 15 appointments, so every weekday for three weeks.
00:40:27
Speaker
and each appointment will be at a different time every day. um So it was it wouldn't be like noon every day, that would be quite manageable. It would be like noon one day, 6 p.m. the next day, 3 p.m. the next day. And it's like, how do I manage childcare around that? Luckily, my husband worked from home. so But then the other thing was they would change the times and dates at the last minute. So what ah my first one, i I thought it would be like Friday at 12 noon, and the day ah the day before it was due, it's like, oh no, it's actually, I got a text saying it's 3 p.m.
00:40:57
Speaker
And so my husband had to do the school run because I couldn't. And I was literally about to walk through the door at the cancer center where I had a call to say, just to confirm your appointment today is at half past three. I was like, no, it bloody isn't. I'm nearly there. You're not confirming anything. You're just changing it again and not even acknowledging the inconvenience. And it was just that whole process. It was the system that upset me because it was so dehumanizing. Anytime I met,
00:41:25
Speaker
you know, a professional, a healthcare person, they were all kind, they were all nice to me. um But it was just the way they changed just that lack of care. um The system was set up to benefit the system not to benefit the patient. I just felt so out of control. I felt the stakes were so high that I couldn't make a fuss. And I ended up breaking down the tears one day on the radiotherapy machine and they They were really nice to me, but um they they clearly didn't really understand why I found it so upsetting. It's because I was trying to organize my life and I've been through so much already. There's a cumulative impact of everything I've been through. um And it was just so upsetting. And I think that that is just not acknowledged. So I i think the great thing about the comics medium is I can walk you through that whole experience and just why it was so upsetting. So you see it from my perspective.
00:42:19
Speaker
um so But was that was that was that difficult to draw? Was that difficult to retell? In terms of the feelings it brought up, yes. And actually just speaking to you now about it, it's bringing up those emotions again. like And i did I talked about that in therapy afterwards and it sort of I think if if I had just done radiotherapy in isolation, it it would still have upset me, but it wouldn't have just upset me quite as much. But given that I'd been through so much already, it was just like another indignity added to the pile. um And it's no way to treat people. And I don't think the NHS can claim that it's healing people if the process of accessing that care is so traumatizing, because I was traumatized by that experience.
00:43:10
Speaker
Sorry to bring that up. No, no, it's fine. i'm I'm happy to talk about it because I want i want to people to hear about what it's like. Yeah. And did anyone else, have you actually shared that on, because obviously some of the ready radiotherapy ones I'm not going to be able to relate to because I didn't have it, but have you shared that story online? Yeah, I actually got my radiotherapy pages published in a medical journal. I was approached via Instagram by an editor of a radio radiotherapy medical journal.
00:43:40
Speaker
um because she loved my work and I got it i got the eight pages, that that detail, that experience that I've just told you in a medical journal. And I actually had doctors emailing me afterwards to say, thank you for sharing this. We'll we'll talk to our teams about, you know, and even one of the oncologists who actually um saw me at an appointment once, he um he wrote to me and said, how like,
00:44:05
Speaker
hu it clearly had affected him and he was going to use that feedback so that was I felt like I was being listened to which was brilliant but it was also really frustrating because I did fill out the feedback form at the cancer centre um Did anything happen from that? I've no idea. But now I've done a comic, people are listening to me, and that's great. But I do think, what about all the people who have gone through a similar experience who haven't, who can't do a comic? So I hope my work can... Yeah, it's not the most um user a-friendly feedback system, that is it? phone, do a comment, get it in your medical journal, maybe the doctors will listen to you. Yeah, probably then you can make a complaint. But i I mean, I kind of wonder, you know, obviously you were just one person on each on each of those days, there will have been another
00:44:56
Speaker
but for sure And I've shared those i shared those panels on Instagram and people have written commented to say, yeah, they've had similar things happen to them. Yeah. Yeah. It's not, it's not unusual, but I think the doctors, they just don't realise, I think, I would i always assume. I always divide in that system because that system does not make any sense, does it? No. It may be it makes sense from their perspective in terms of how the machines work. I don't know. But like, I always assume doctors and nurses knew what it's like to go through cancer, but I don't think they do.
00:45:25
Speaker
I think, because they're in the room with you, they see cancer patients every day, but it's like a wall of mirrors, they're in such a different milieu to the patient, the power imbalance, the knowledge, it's all that, there's there's there's a big cast in there. They can't go through your personal journey, otherwise they'd they'd retire within a year, wouldn't they? Yes, of course, they need the boundaries for their for their emotional wellbeing, absolutely. No, but I think there's a lack of understanding sometimes about what it's really like to go through cancer treatment. And I hope that's something my book can achieve because I hope that I can speak for all patients, you know, everyone's story is different. But my story resonates because it people can relate to at least part of it. So I hope when doctors read my book, they will be reminded that patients are people and I know I know they know that but I think you know, it's so hard when everyone's on the conveyor belt you've got certain you're under so much pressure and I think
00:46:24
Speaker
We need to remind people that we're all patients, we're all individuals with weird thoughts in our heads at all points, and just what it's like to go through that process. um mean I mean, the fact that you got so much feedback from those, from the radiotherapy kind of event, imagine if you could do that with different areas and get that that much feedback, because I think that in itself feels like you've probably made a change, like that will have made a difference.
00:46:53
Speaker
I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, has anyone, have any of those other people contacted you since the initial? No, but I wouldn't necessarily expect them to. And hopefully, I think when you're trying to persuade people to change, it's not always immediate. well I think hopefully by work, people will read it. It will plant some thoughts in their head.
00:47:18
Speaker
over the course of weeks or months or years later, it might be one of a few things that causes them to change something. um So, you know, it's, um I hope my work brings about change um in terms of a kinder system. um You know, I think, you know, the and NHS is under so much financial pressure and they cut all the back office staff and they cut the managers and all that, but that meat that leaves you with a cruel system where you you can't get through on the phone or you your appointments have just shifted around with no notice and that's that that is what's unkind about the system and no one intends it to be that way but that's how it ends up being and I hope by bringing that human element to the story
00:48:06
Speaker
I can help people see that there's a need to for change. And I would love to get my book in front of West Streeting, actually. I want him to read it. I mean, I think that's achievable. Yeah. Also, he had cancer in his 30s as well. So um the Health Minister had cancer. Yeah, he had kidney cancer. I didn't know that. He's about the same age as me. Actually, he wasn't. We went to Cambridge at the same time. um I didn't know him there though. um So I want to get in touch with him and say, hey, I've also had cancer in my 30s and we were at Cambridge together. Would you like to read my book and change the whole NHS? I don't even think you should just like ah ask him to read your book. I think you just get a copy in front of him and force him to read it. Yeah, maybe I will. Yeah.
00:48:50
Speaker
um i just wonder i mean he's got a lot on his plate at the moment but yes of course i i think that's a definite goal for the future i like that as well i think that's um i think that's uh something to aim for thank you hayley for her speaking today thanks for having me i can't wait to see the the finished item and come to the book launch at the top of the shard i'm looking forward to that next year I'm thinking Royal College of Surgeons, welcome collection. Sorry, I was going for the more high, literally high profile place. Wembley Stadium. Yeah, we'll do the O2.
00:49:30
Speaker
ah Well, let's let's put it out there, what the College of Surgeons. I want the Royal College of Surgeons. I'm actually, um ah liz Dr Liz did a book launch, a book event there a couple of years ago and I ah went and it was very nice and I would like to do something there as well.
00:49:45
Speaker
Let's put that out into the universe, let's make that happen. I mean we they are i think I've got a good, it doesn't feel unrealistic. oh that's very nice of you to say I'm ah aiming for the stars and everything I'm doing at the moment and I might not get there and everything but I think it's I've got a shot and I'm going to take it. Yeah no I think it's amazing what you've done and and and obviously like I say I think the impact in the community is like you're saying it's like saying stuff that people are thinking so I think I think it resonates with people a lot so thank you what you're doing