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Limitless Em - Emma Campbell - Writer - Speaker - Parent
43 Plays1 year ago
Emma shares her story of being diagnosed with breast cancer while pregnant with triplets, the challenges of navigating cancer while raising young children, and her journey of finding mental resilience and a new appreciation for life after facing multiple cancer recurrences.
Emma discusses:
Her initial diagnosis: A lump in her breast, discovered while dealing with fertility treatments and a difficult pregnancy.
The impact on her family: Managing her diagnosis and treatment while raising four young children, and the emotional toll it took on everyone.
Her secondary diagnosis: The devastating news of a recurrence, and how it impacted her mental health, causing anxiety and fear.
Her approach to living with secondary breast cancer: Emma talks about the importance of staying active, finding joy, and embracing the "limitless" potential that she believes everyone has.
The importance of sharing stories: Emma emphasises the value of sharing her story and connecting with others in the cancer community, as well as the need to raise awareness and make a change in how breast cancer is perceived and treated.
Emma expressing a desire to continue making a positive impact, affirming the strength and resilience of those living with cancer.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest's Busy Life
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, Emma. Hello, thank you so much for agreeing to come on my podcast. um I feel incredibly honored and know how busy you are right now and always are. Do you want to give a bit of an intro on what you're famous for? Famous for being a, um and it was certainly not not famous for anything other than we were just saying, weren't we, about being Well, that's sort of overwhelming. I was saying today, I'll get her off school and I'm not normally a late person. You're famous for being overwhelmed. Overwhelmed, juggling lots of plates. But now I'm, yeah, i I suppose in terms of Instagram and maybe your followers, and I'm sure we've probably got some mutual followers as part of the and c incredible cancer community that we're in.
Living with Secondary Breast Cancer
00:00:51
Speaker
Yeah. I host my own podcast. I'm a speaker.
00:00:53
Speaker
I'm a writer, I'm a mum of four and I live with secondary breast cancer so I was diagnosed in 2010 and had a secondary diagnosis at the end of 2014 so I am a patient for life like many of us and but I'm currently in a in a good place which is a lovely thing to be able to say. I mean what I normally do is talk about the initial diagnosis I'm not, I don't feel like I've actually read it, read about your 2010 diagnosis, how you found the lump or, or was it a lump even? Yeah, it was. So I'd had a lump for a few years before that in my right breast and I'd, I'd got it, I'd done the right thing. Eventually I'd got it checked probably two or three years before. And I was sent for a mammogram and was told it was a cyst, nothing to worry about. So I kind of put it out of my mind, but it was a lump that was always there and it remained unchanged.
00:01:47
Speaker
but it was a niggle and it was something that I'd sort of always find myself, you know, you can't help, but feeling it, absent-mindedly having a little prod, but it, so I was always, always aware, but, you know, I thought, okay, they told me it's fine, it's fine.
Initial Diagnosis and Pregnancy Challenges
00:02:01
Speaker
I had my son, been trying for several years to have a second baby. And so had a round of, you know, had some fertility treatment, IVF, found that I was carrying triplets, which is obviously an incredible kind of wonderful shock, a miracle, but also quite, you know wow that kind of life is never the same from that from that moment. So I went through a very sort of intense pregnancy following the fertility treatment hormone levels obviously kind of through the roof carrying multiples and all sorts and I was aware but it was a very very stressful time because sadly my relationship with their dad was also it was crumbling at that time so I was kind of it was far from a blissful
00:02:42
Speaker
belly-stroking pregnancy, it was very much a kind of fight or flight, you know, everything was like, where are we going to live? How we are we going to, you know, relationship dramas and all of that. And just trying to somehow get my head around the fact that three babies are going to appear, you know, imminently. And I was aware of changes in my right breast. But again, it's kind of, it's very easy, isn't it? And especially for me, as I've often talked about, and I am very good at denial. and not facing things. And that's an ongoing, kind of an ongoing issue for me. And in certain areas of my life where I just kind of, you know, I don't push things aside and forget about them. I i almost live with the anxiety, but I'm too scared to take action. But I guess it was quite easy for me to think, okay, well, fertility treatment, you know, but babies. And then, you know, when they were expressing around the clock, lost lots of weight due to
00:03:39
Speaker
all sorts of reasons. So maybe that's the reason why I can't really feel this lump anymore and my breasts felt very different. But it wasn't until the babies were about four or five months old and I had separated from their dad and I was feeding them, you know formula feeding at that point, middle of the night and I felt a little lump under my right arm.
Treatment Journey and Emotional Impact
00:04:03
Speaker
So that was the moment in my armpit. So that was the moment where I kind of, you know everything stopped. I remember that moment so clearly, you know, one baby in my arms, two asleep on either side, and it was probably two or three o'clock in the morning. And it was just like, it was one of those, I just knew, I just think I knew in that moment. So I i did call the GP and I was seen quite quickly. And yeah, it all happened quite quickly. And um basically the like the five centimeter lump that I, sorry,
00:04:38
Speaker
We can edit this slightly. philipin go to say that quite a big that's ah That's a big lump. So basically the cysts that I'd always felt, which then had disappeared and these changes in my breasts that I wasn't really, I just couldn't work it out. But I remember I'd lie on my tummy at night in the rare moments that I slept. So I felt like I was lying on something. And it turned out that that small cyst had become a five centimeter tumor. Wow. Yeah. I mean, that whole, that whole breast was just, you know, that, and there were what they call little islands of disease, you know, so you have had the big tumor, but there were just specks sort of everywhere. And there was lymph node involvement. So because of the size of the tumor,
00:05:22
Speaker
I was given chemotherapy first to shrink it. And I remember even that feeling like, no one else I know is having it. You know, I just felt, if I got the biggest tumor, I didn't, I couldn't, you know, you get to know other patients and you hear other stories, but I seem to be the only one I knew that was having needed chemotherapy first of all, to actually shrink it. But it worked. The chemotherapy was incredible. I hadn't had an amazing response. And by the time the mastectomy happened, I think there was barely any disease at that point, but had the mastectomy. lymph node removal, all my lymph nodes removed, reconstruction. And, you know, we, as we know that, that recovery, radiotherapy, and then 18 months of herceptin. And physically I did really, I mean, I did really well as in, you know, long recovery, but I was young fit, you know, resilient and our bodies are incredible a lot of time and I recovered well, but as I've often talked about the emotional aspect was devastating.
00:06:18
Speaker
But that that was that was the initial primary diagnosis. That's how that happened. So it was a very, very, very challenging time because obviously also I was managing the babies.
Family Support During Diagnosis
00:06:29
Speaker
So when you actually found out were you, you know when when when you when they said the words, we think it's cancer, were you kind of you know were you there with four kids on your own kind of thing? So at home it was it was very much like that. Everyone was rallying around because of, I think when you have multiples you know, if you're lucky enough to have friends in the family, they rally around anyway, pre-cancer. That was enough of a drama in Adverted Commons almost, you know, especially as I found myself kind of, you know, as as a single mum. And then, but I always sort of say that the day that I think I pretty much knew from the first moment that the, my breast surgeon examined me, you know, what I was going to hear. And I remember going into the appointment with my dad on my right, my elder sister on my left on that day.
00:07:16
Speaker
And yeah, he was like, yes, it's it's a cancer. And I remember thinking, what does he mean, a cancer? You know, cancer's cancer. But I just remember that kind of, I might have misheard, but I feel like I remember just remembering the way he phrased it. And it was, but I was already at such a rock bottom. You know, life was, I kind of, it was like, almost like I was already so depleted, so emotionally wrung out, so emotionally in a state of fear and kind of overwhelm and exhaustion and this, you know, trying to manage every day dealing with lots of drama around me that when I heard those words, it was, I honestly don't think I could have got any lower, you know, life already felt despite the miracle of the babies and my beautiful older boy. I felt like my life was already kind of- How old was your your eldest son at that point? Yeah, he was nearly seven. He was nearly seven and the babies were six months old. Do you understand what was kind of going on or?
00:08:13
Speaker
I did the classic kind of, you know, he'd probably, he'd been, there'd been lots of people gathering around over that last week or two where whispered conversations, you know, kind of me weeping, you know, more people than usual kind of coming into the fact that we were living in, you know, two bedroom flat, upload to stairs, helping, helping with the babies, just being there as a support. So I sat him down one day and I'd ordered the kind of that book that lots of us know, I think it's called Mummy's Lump or Mummy's Got a Lump. and I, he was in his Spiderman costume and I read him the book. And I said to mummies, I don't know if I read him the book, actually. I think I might've told him first thing, given him the book, but I just said, look, mommy, you might've seen lots of people, more people than usual coming and going. And mommy's, mommy's got a nasty lump. I've got a nasty lump in my breast and the, but the doctors are going to give me some really strong medicine to make it go away. But it might make me look a little bit silly for a while because I'm going to lose my hair.
00:09:11
Speaker
And I just remember him, you know, Mr. Spider-Man just saying, okay, mum, you know, okay, what's for dinner? And it really was, it sounds kind of, I'll kind of have a biscuit, you know, and and and off he went. And I think that's the miracle of that age, you know, because fast forward a few years later when, you know, I had to talk to him again, and then again, it's very different. But I think as a six year old, fortunately, I'm sure his yeah it he he took it in that moment. And I guess our kids believe us. you know i i I suppose I felt I could reassure him at that point, even though I was terrified myself. I i kind of thought, right. I had enough people around me saying, come on, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay. We just got to get you through this. You've got to get through the next six months, the next year. you know yeah So how old was he and when you got your secondary?
00:10:02
Speaker
So the second diagnosis, he just started, he was a term into secondary school. So he was 11, he was 11 and a half. And yeah, I mean, I think the time I remember the most poignantly was when I got my third diagnosis and he was 15. That was when I feel like that he was just almost like a young adult at that point. And then with the babies, of course they were oblivious first time round, second time round, they didn't lose all my hair. So they were kind of, again, they've, But yeah, it's been a very different experience having one older child and then three much younger ones. I think they would both say, I'm sure when they're adults and they sort of look back, they'll they'll describe their experience of mum having cancer or living with cancer in very different ways, I think.
Impact on Family and Cancer Community
00:10:43
Speaker
Yeah, so and that's one of the interesting things, obviously, in the cancer community online, it's everyone's, it's always first person, what what the person is going through. And occasionally you'll see like what the family's,
00:10:58
Speaker
how it's affected them, but you know the majority of points of view is is' from the patient, isn't it? Not that you forget that, obviously it affects people beyond that person, but we don't you don't see a lot of it. I mean, it's interesting, I think if I'd been on Instagram, a platform like Instagram, 14 years ago, I don't even know if it existed then, I think it did, I can't remember, but but I certainly wasn't on it. And, you know, I probably, it would have been a huge comfort, I think, to have been able to find myself in that community much, much earlier on. And I've been sharing so much more of how it was as a mum with tiny babies and then toddlers, excuse me. yeah But um now, of course, you know, it's not really appropriate for me to to share that.
00:11:47
Speaker
their thoughts about it too much. that's the law no no i mean library say it was It was more that obviously the impact of this. yeah you know It's very easy. The one thing that I thought about a while back was you know the the thing that the diagnosis every 11 minutes is it or something and all the statistics beyond that. and you could say to the government you know we need to we need to invest more money it's affecting x amount of people but you know there might there might be 55 000 people diagnosed with it in a year but that affects hundreds of thousands of people like it's it's a big thing and then you know the impact
00:12:25
Speaker
is almost kind of not, there's no statistics on the impact for the, beyond the family or actually the family and how, you know, they might have to stop work or they might have to change their lifestyle to support patients. And, ah you know, I do think it's it's quite important that we do. you know, we we hear stories beyond the patient. I mean obviously the patient is the most important thing. And note one of the scary things recently for me, exactly what you just said, it's amazing that people are allowed to go onto Instagram and share their story and you can see someone in a very similar
00:13:03
Speaker
position as you but recently i've started following a lot of people and they and they're like i was diagnosed in november 23 i was diagnosed in december 23 and i'm like there's just a new wave of people which i knew i knew that was going to be a thing but it's still quite shocking and the other thing is the amount of like young people these aren't people that are you know lining up to get them their 50 50th birthday mamagram there there this there's a lot of young people being affected by this and i it's more and more so and i think what the conversations that we've had as a community over the last year or so with the losses of you know friends and close friends or you know friends virtual friends but all of those connections that we make this sort of
00:13:55
Speaker
Devastating realization that it's become normal to us.
Normalizing Cancer Conversations and Long-term Survivors
00:13:59
Speaker
You know, an abnormal situation of of of ah waking up and looking at your phone and seeing that there's another loss or someone's had the worst possible needs. But would you agree that that normality for us hasn't reached out into mainstream really in reality? I don't think it has. Yeah, no, I think that's it. And I think I think when we come together and have these, I think of some of the conversations with with friends where we kind of go, you know, for example, when Nicky, amazing, you know, Nicky Newman died last year and and it was just like, but this is not normal, in terms of commerce, for us to be at another, saying goodbye at another funeral to kind of be adjusting processing. And that's just us as the often peripheral friendship group. But it's, and I think when you've been living it,
00:14:51
Speaker
in a situation for so long it does become that you it becomes your own normal but it's it's only when I occasionally friends of mine who haven't been affected will say I cannot imagine you know the we're in this sort of bubble aren't we at times you know and it's um I guess that's why it's so important that we that we do what we're doing which is chair and talk and connect Yeah, i think I think the key to changing the situation is to break into mainstream. So the likes of...
00:15:23
Speaker
Amy Dowden, like with such a high profile being diagnosed with breast cancer and then actually being willing to share it is an amazing thing. You know, the likes of Victoria Echinoy, having again another platform where we can just get this normality. And you know, it's not very, it's not pink and fluffy, but it needs to be, the way it's gonna change is we we normalize talking about about it, to not maybe not to the extent of what the community does, but that we just, we normalise, you know, the self-checking and we normalise the going to the doctor if you think anything's wrong with you. and I think as well that normalising, you know, and I think of myself in a very privileged position of being someone who's living in the long term and has had long periods of good health and stability in, in you know, since that secondary diagnosis.
00:16:22
Speaker
is also, I think, I feel that I, you know, shining a light on those of us who are living, you know, almost as though it is a it's a chronic, you know, ongoing situation. And it's not like that for everyone. I'm very, very aware. But if there are more, as more diagnoses happen and there's treatment advances and outlooks improve over, you know, as slow as that can seem, there are going to be more and more people in, in you know, in in the working world, you know, who were living in the long-term with a diagnosis and and leaving work and going to hospital every three weeks, then coming back and picking up and having. And I think those conversations are really important as well, you know, that it isn't just something that's over and done with. And there is a sort of a middle ground of of patients who are wonderfully, you know, got aspects of their life that are kind of ticking along.
00:17:17
Speaker
but they are also living in an longer, in a long-term way. Yeah, well, I mean, that's got to be the long-term goal for the and NHS, I suppose, because I mean, I've always said, you know, shouldn't the A and B switching the, all the money that is spent on the kind of more aggressive treatments, shifting it to, you know, prevention and monitoring and new de detection kind of equipment. But obviously, You can't then neglect people that have got a secondary diagnosis because they they need to continue living. and And of course, there's always going to be people that diagnosed ah are diagnosed with secondary breast cancer who need support and need their life extending. So what what um what treatment are you on now? are you Is it like the injection? Is that the thing that you're on? I have an infusion every three weeks at the Royal Marsden and I have a drug called TDM1.
00:18:12
Speaker
which at casillo is the is the brand name. And it's, again, it's got an an element of Herceptin. You know, my my cancer is HER2, so it's been always been very estrogen driven. And Herceptin is the sort of magical, you know, one of the original incredible game-changing drugs for HER2 patients. So I have, it's it's Herceptin based with an element of chemotherapy sort of attached to it. And I'm never great at explaining but I have that every every three weeks in the chemo ward but it is very you know it's it's as you can you know happy the the impact the physical impact is nowhere near as great as as other types of chemo that I've been on and most of us ah have at the beginning when we're initially diagnosed. Yeah I was going to say what are the side effects of that is it? I think the side, I also have the zonodex injection every month so my
00:19:04
Speaker
I mean, I would be probably, I'd be menopausal now definitely because of my age, but it, I've, you know, my ovaries were shut down in a medically induced way sort of eight years ago or 10 years ago. And so the side effects, I think I definitely feel like neuropathy, you know, is the kind of something that I'm having to just adjust to and kind of the tiredness comes and goes. Zolodex has a bit of a hormonal impact on me. So my feet and my hands, I feel that kind of tingling and that kind of my grip in my hands isn't, isn't brilliant. And nosebleeds, I think it's a funny one, isn't it? You get these side effects. You think, is that the drug? Is that, um, and you look up, but like I, yes, but none of them are, none of them are terrible and none of that, or they're all very manageable is what I should say. They're all very, very manageable. And yeah, cycle 102 this Wednesday for me.
00:19:59
Speaker
Ah, right. Yeah, I think I saw something on you. Yeah. yeah ah Number 100.
Secondary Cancer Diagnosis and Emotional Toll
00:20:05
Speaker
Can I ask how you felt when they when they actually said, I mean, how did they how did they tell you when it's a secondary? I don't think I was never told you now. have I mean, it was just I think I asked that question because it was the word that I'd terrified. It was the thing that I dreaded for those four years in between the initial initial diagnosis and getting the secondary diagnosis and why my mental health was in such a poor state. was because I just spent my whole time living waiting for that to happen. Even on paper, everything, you know, I'd had a complete pathological response. You know, I was sort of fit and it fit as a fiddle and in in many ways it was like, right, you've done it, you know, you had primary with breast cancer two, three, four years ago. So when it came back kind of out of the blue,
00:20:48
Speaker
And I knew, I knew, I almost didn't need to ask, I knew what it meant, but I think with me as well, I mean, it was the, that was, it was just the darkest day ever, because in my mind, again, I went from, and life at that point, unlike the initial diagnosis, life at that point had found a lovely balance, you know, I was in a much better place emotionally, my kids, the kids had grown up, they'd started, you know, reception, I had a little bit of headspace, I'd, i'd met someone who went on to be my husband. So there was lots, i'd got my I felt like I'd got my life back. So it felt just in the way that, I mean, it's always cruel to get ah to get a cancer diagnosis, but just in the way that when the diagnosis initially came and the babies had just been born and I desperately, you know, I've been trying for years for a second baby and I had this miracle of three and then the cruelty of feeling like, oh my God, and now there's a chance I won't be here. And then for the second time around, it was like,
00:21:44
Speaker
we got through this incredibly difficult first four years there at school, Jake's at secondary school, we're all doing well, we've survived it. I've met someone, I'm falling in love, life, you know, get the bunting out, like life's kind of going to be okay. And then the the absolute blindsiding devastation of its back. And for me, the the then the kind of mental aspect was I'm going to die. I'm going to die. I'm going to die soon. I'm going to die prematurely. I'm going to die painfully. There was no gray. I couldn't find any perspective. And again, because I'm not very good, I never asked about a
Finding Hope and Gratitude in Adversity
00:22:21
Speaker
prognosis. I never, I mean, I, I, so many questions I haven't asked over the years because that's just not my way of, I don't really want to know things, but I again was very, very fortunate. I had a
00:22:32
Speaker
and amazing response to the chemo and and the cancer came back in my skin which meant that it couldn't be operated on but the skin is an organ obviously which is what put me in that category but I suppose I still kind of hold on to a feeling of well it's it's in that it was in the chest area you know it was um it came back very sort of vividly in that area but it did respond fantastically to the to the drugs but I've been on um treatment ever since yeah time yeah that's i mean yeah it's fucking shit what um when did when did limitless m kind of show a face limitless m because i'd i'd been m plus four i was you know i was m with the with all the kids so i had a blog ah multiple kind of ah i found a website meandmyfour.com that was my blog that was my fur that was i started got a chinese person owns it now
00:23:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's not online anymore. It's like, yeah. I don't know what's happened to it. I mean, it's, I've got, I think I've got all the entries somewhere just, but no, so I started blogging near my four then found Instagram M plus four and it was, it was kind of, I was in with all the kids, all the babies. And, and then I think around the time of the third diagnosis, just before the third diagnosis, I'd having reached, having reached another real sort of emotional rock bottom of just living as though I, as I've often described it, living as though I was dying, even though on paper, I'd had a complete response. I was, you know, no evidence of active disease. I was living as though the end was nigh. And so I was joyless. My parenting was affected. I didn't know how to be present with the kids. I didn't know how to be present in any moment because I was so consumed with fear, but I did. watch I mean, that's weird because like some people would say it be the it'd be almost the opposite. You'd be appreciating. Oh, I, I, well, it was that crossover time of I was just in a very poor mental state and
00:24:30
Speaker
But then I think having reached a rock bottom, reaching out to my GP, sort of opening up to people around me, really being honest about how much this was the fear of dying was consumed and the fear of recurrence and the fear of not being here for the the babies and the kids was so all consuming that once I, I guess like anything, once I did shine a light on that. I mean, more slowly, but surely I had found the Instagram community and I was observing the way other women in particular were were living. and managing and I was starting to get a sense of perspective because before Instagram I would just be my I'd be ruled by what the current daily mail headline was on a person in the public eye and it would tended to be very negative you know because the headlines would be you know. Do you remember who you kind of. Well Bernie Nolan from the Nolans
00:25:18
Speaker
was diagnosed initially in 2010, pretty much within a week, while I was about a week behind her. So she was part of the Nolan sisters. they That generation, you'll know we'll you'll not know, but so we had very similar diagnosis, large tumors, chemo, mastectomy. I think we had a mastectomy in the same week. And then I became sort of very fixated on her journey in a very unhealthy way. And every day I developed almost like a sort of, but ah not phobia, like a trauma response where Every day I'd almost wake up and go online, typically the Daily Mail, knowing that if her cancer had returned, it would appear on there or on, ah you know, you walk past the shop and there's Hello! magazine. And and I was living on my, note I just was living in this state all the time. And then, and then tried you know, heartbreakingly a couple of years in to my remission. I remember seeing this, you know, Bernie Nolan,
00:26:18
Speaker
my cancer's back and this time it's incurable. and And I remember that moment looking on my phone and ringing my sister. I think it was like a Sunday evening mail online. I remember ringing my sister. I was sobbing. And it was as though I'd been handed my own diagnosis. That's how it felt. That's how that's how reactive I was to everything around me. And and that's how hypervigilant and catastrophic. and And I couldn't differentiate between someone else's diagnosis and story and my own. And I think that's been a massive thing. I think actually, as I'm saying, it's really important to highlight is one of the one of the but sort of huge positives that have come out being part of the community of is not kind of, oh, I'm all right, Jack, because I'm in a better place than that person. But it is kind of realizing that that word, that cancer word is so different, so brought across all. And actually, we're all have dealing with our own story, our own
00:27:16
Speaker
body chemistry, our own genetics, and our own responses. And that's helped me kind of slowly but surely not be tortured by the information that I'm seeing, you know, and placing myself in a, oh, you know, I don't know, just some kind of perspective. And but so the limitless M came, I guess, as a result of having reached a rock bottom, having slowly kind of sought some help, you know, started having some therapy, started taking a low level of anti-depressant, which did kind of help. And and then really delving into the the way of thinking that I'd always believed, so having the self-help books by my bed, having those, but never really living it. So I guess, as I've said many, many times, practicing got really kind of stepping into practicing gratitude. and And I've talked about this for hours endlessly over and over again, but just how that became the and my starting point was,
00:28:12
Speaker
My fear in this moment is so great. I'm sitting in the waiting room, so convinced, even though there's no real evidence that I'm going to hear the worst possible news today. And the only way, the only the starting point for me was literally sitting there going, just saying thank you, because I didn't i knew you I understood that anxiety and gratitude can't occupy the same place. and Yeah, well, yeah. um I think i think the the interesting thing what you were saying there is I think everyone has a very similar kind of response.
00:28:44
Speaker
and they'll go out and say, you know, I'm going to go grab life, but then actually implementing that into your life is is a completely different thing. And if, I mean, obviously, if you, if by saying things, it makes you feel better than that, potentially a good thing, but obviously I'm hoping now you're going to give me an example of where you went. No, I took action. I did this thing. yeah Oh my God. It like, woo. Well, I think that the subtle beginning was, was looking at life, beginning to look at life through a different lens. And then iron ironically, really tying in with the kind of shift to having had this beginning of a mindset shift. And I all tied in, you know, so pre the third diagnosis in January, 2019, I'd begun to kind of find a way of, you know, I'd i'd written, my book had come out. I was, i I really had stepped into the Instagram community. I made some wonderful friendships.
00:29:41
Speaker
again, observing how other women or any people were living their lives. You can't help but think, look at how she's embracing life in this moment. It always like a drip feed, drip feed, drip feed. And I really tapped into that mindset, even the neuroscience side of things. You're really kind of committing to consciously trying to shift my thoughts and turn the volume down on that, that endless repetitive negative dialogue and fearful dialogue. And that was the was the kind of like one book that helped you achieve. For me, it's more of a listening thing. I mean, I'm a huge fan. I mean, I've always very much believed that our thoughts are very powerful, but it's less it was it was less a book, probably in more, you know, always been a listener. So whether it's, you know, there's an amazing man called Dr. Joe Dispenza, who's a very well known, you know, he's a passionate sort of, well, neuroscience background, you know, so he talks about the power of
00:30:37
Speaker
And we can that neuroplasticity and we can shift our thoughts and we can form new habits. And really, and then Deborah, you know, amazing Balbabe was a huge example in the running, the running as I got that third diagnosis. And Jake, my son had said the words to me that I've talked endlessly about the day that we I told him that my cancer had come back and we went for a walk and he said, mommy just got to live like it's not there. And that all seemed to kind of synchronistically come together of I have to change the way I live with this. And actually from that kind of time onwards, I really did. I have found ways of, I found more joy. I found more ways of embracing joy and
00:31:22
Speaker
literally saying yes to life and loving life than I ever have.
Embracing Joy and Human Potential
00:31:25
Speaker
So in a, in a very kind of ah surprising way, despite everything that's gone on in the last five years, which is, was that third diagnosis was the end of my marriage was, you know, heartbreak was losing incredible friends and having my own health ups and downs and anxieties and low, really low phases. I fundamentally feel that there's been a shift in me in how I view life. So I just, know that I have to, i i even on the dark days, i live I live with such an acute awareness of how precious life is. It doesn't mean I'm not grumpy, irritable with the kids, not worrying about money like the rest of us, not feeling knackered, feeling lost or whatever. But underneath all of that, I feel like I have to believe that my life
00:32:19
Speaker
can continue to be full and fulfilling and full of little miracles, big miracles, unexpected joy, and I've just become someone who is much more embracing of life. And I think that's- I mean, from from an outsider's point of view, I mean, I think that's what I've observed, but I was kind of wondering if there was a, you know, to what extent, if you could imagine anything, what would the the actual limitless kind of thing be, what would be the The limitless thing is, is that I do believe that we all have limitless potential. I do believe that as humans we are, we have incredible untapped potential. So the limitless m change change was about not that every day I feel limitless. I'm so limitless. I can do it. i can It was more, it's more to me as a daily reminder. So it's not, look at me, I'm limitless. it's We're all limitless. If only we could just find ways of tapping into that.
00:33:16
Speaker
part of ourselves where we're filled with self doubt and fear and responding for everything going on around us. And actually it all comes back down to our own, our own selves and our own beliefs. And I, and that said to me, it's more of a way of that, that, that handle change on Instagram was to serve as a daily reminder to myself. That was, that was the Yeah. That was the feeling. So it's it's the the things you want to achieve and the things you think are out of your reach or relative to each person. yeah i know I know for me, and I looked at kind of like my Instagram host, Nicky, because when Nicky died, that kind of like I was actually, I know i everyone was upset.
00:34:03
Speaker
but that kind of hit me quite hard. and And then I was like, you know what, I did a post about just, you know, obviously see I don't use the term limitless, but kind of just try and do something like, you're not you're not here, you're not here very long. And, and yeah, you know, you know, I'm not living with a secondary bru breast cancer diagnosis, but my, my ethos was kind of, everyone that has that diagnosis kind of goes, shit, life is precious and valuable and enjoy the small things. And like I, like I wrote in in the book, it's kind of like it's all the cliches, that that they actually are true. You've got to implement it in a way. I mean, I think it's impossible to have, even if, if, you know, I was lucky enough to know Deborah and I knew Nikki.
00:34:58
Speaker
And, but even if I'd just been observing them, you know, from my phone, it's impossible not to be impacted by the approach they had. And and so many, you know, of us try to, to have of essentially it's that whether it, whether it was Deb saying yes to a physical challenge when her body was really, you know, struggling or running slowly, but defiantly, you know, near her home or to the Marsden or Nikki being in the looking and talking about the big ball of joy in the sky when the sun came out. It really is, that is what it is. It's those moments and they were both, I think they were both absolutely when Nikki just embodied that, didn't she? The loving, the the simple things and embracing the the pleasurable, tiny moments. And i it all comes back again, whether they were practicing, intentionally practicing gratitude, whether ah if I'm sitting here with a cup of tea,
00:35:56
Speaker
on a Monday morning that might feel quite challenging, but I can take a moment and go, oh, it's a cup of tea. Got this cup, right now, this cup of tea. You know, it really is about bringing it back to the now. I think that's, doesn't come naturally for so many of us, but I think one of, if there's anything we can take from such a shitty set of circumstances, bloody hell, the highs that I feel and the and the connection to the good emotions are so much more magnified than they ever were. So, you know, I don't think I had the capacity to really feel the good stuff. and Yeah. I mean, well, in comparison to what you've described eight years ago, 10 years ago, it sounds like you're in a even before the diagnosis initially, I don't think i but I think I was someone who was quite limited by fearful thoughts all the time. So life, I kept my life quite small and safe. Yeah.
00:36:45
Speaker
but obviously it's quite It's quite good that you've, like you say, almost the the change of handle on Instagram almost was kind of, it had it wasn't really about the name change, it was about the reminder. and That's it. one many anything So that's good. I'm reminded to you, but that I think people like your username and you know I think the people I spoke to whenever i' if I've ever mentioned you, they're like, oh yes, she's amazing. So that's good. get my kids on and see what they say but yeah i think we're and that is it's nice I mean I'm i'm you know not that like my intention was to my intention was to be a little bit selfish and go right yeah you know unfortunate enough to be in the position I'm in but left like I want to yeah i want to use cancer to kind of like conjure up some new things that I've never even dreamt were possible
00:37:40
Speaker
And yeah, what what you know the reminder for me was to tell people, don't wait for a cancer diagnosis to try and do some random shit that you always thought you'd like to try, try it. i you know you you You already said it, say yes more and and go and go and do those things. i Yeah, I feel really, I really do have a solid belief that life can still bring incredible moments and incredible experiences and incredible connections and relationships and And as long as, you know, as long as we feel the changes at the, but you know, that we just all keep moving forward together and we all believe that change is happening and that. and that
00:38:21
Speaker
But change definitely needs to, something
Advocacy and Personal Growth
00:38:23
Speaker
needs to happen. I think for me the thing recently is the amount of, well it was soon after Nicky died and I thought I'll start a petition to try and, you know, I'm sure I can do something. And then I and and i found a couple of petitions already running and then there just seems to be a and new wave of petitions and I'm like, It just seems a bit, we're all trying to achieve the same thing, but we're all kind of watering down our effectiveness. And I think something, if we can kind of group together, I mean, we've got to do something we can't, it can't carry on. but You're amazing because you are, you're very, very consistent online and you, your, your passion and and desire to make a change and, and encourage us all to take action is really,
00:39:11
Speaker
palpable. So I do, you know, I think there's a lot of us that have a lot of admiration for you. I'll bless you. Like that's, I mean, I do get, I do get occasional feedback, which I, um you know, I'm humbled by the community anyway. I take people are like, just say thank you. Just say thank you and and accept the compliments. But I'm like, my, my mind is like, imagine if I could actually like help change, like, I will, I'll jump on board anyone's kind of petition. I'll, I'll support anyone's kind of thing. And to be part, a small part of something that actually turned into something big would just be, you know, amazing. It changed, doesn't it? And see, and you've already started that. So just hold that, hold that vision and keep doing what you're doing. And we have to also kind of trust that, you know, at the timing of things and that if we all have a, it can all seem very fragmented. Like you said, we've all got
00:40:11
Speaker
you'll know what needs to happen, but the water down, it's a good way of describing it. But I think if we keep doing, if you certainly keep doing what you're doing, you'll find there will be a ah way of, and the book, you know, the amazing the amazing book that you you created and you put. Well, that was well and so that was it. you you know You were asking me about the book on when we spoke in August? September. It might have been September and the unexpected thing about the book is I think even on Saturday someone came up to me and was like I'm just like so I'm an author I'm a published author and I'm like I didn't even think I just went through the motions of
00:40:55
Speaker
You know, I didn't think about the emotional impact that like a book would have of someone being in that book. I just went through the process of how do I create a book? How do I publish it? How do I do this? And just, and in the end, the result is, you know, I had that day at Future Dreams house and all these people came and was like, I was just like, I'm just so, I can't believe I'm in a book. And it's almost like it's one off their bucket list. And I didn't even, that wasn't even in my view of it of being a thing i just thought they would go oh right it's a book whatever and be a bit blase about it with people like oh i'm i'm in a book i'm like they're so proud and i helped luckily i helped them achieve that and now i've just i've got a facebook group where i'm showing people how to actually publish their own book now to self-publish well i'm just trying to like i'm just trying to think because i want to show people how to
00:41:51
Speaker
ah because I went through it, how'd you start a podcast? like it's It's actually quite simple-ish. Marketing it is a completely different thing, but actually creating the actual thing is is actually relatively easy, but it took me a few tries. And I'm like, all these things that you think are at a reach are actually achievable by most people. And, you know, I think, I think that's where your, I just, you know, your and name the name limit was seven hours. Oh yeah. I just, I think from just day one, I was like, Oh yeah. I liked that kind of like ethos behind that. is night mr It's a good thing. Shall we, it's quarter to now. Do you need to? finishsh yeah in a yeah I did make a couple of notes cause I didn't realize cause you did a column in a running magazine.
Running as Therapy
00:42:41
Speaker
I did, I did. I was a columnist and for Women's Running Magazine for a couple of years, which I loved and running has, was an enormous part of my life, has been, and is, and it still is. It's just, I'm just reacquainting myself with it. So yeah, loved running, you know, again, running, writing about the emotional, emotional benefits. So I'm never going to be, I was never going to be the kind of, oh, I've beaten a, you know, personal best and this and this and triathlons, it was always about, when I run, this is how it makes me feel. And this is how it fills my cup. And this is how it reminds me that my body's working for me, not against me. This is what it does to my mental health and my feeling of I can do it. So tell me, what is it that running does to you? Oh gosh, I get, I get a run as high on the shortest of runs because however resistant I might be feeling to running and again, and I say it over and over again in, you know, and I hate anyone to think, well, it's all right, you know, I, why, or why can't I,
00:43:38
Speaker
Why aren't I feeling like running? I'm on chemotherapy. I'm very aware that I'm on a type of cancer treatment that allows me to be able to run. So there's no, part you know, everyone has to just do what's right for them. you don't and So slow, you know, but it really is just about me getting out. It was a way of me reconnecting with my body in a very positive way and it just tapped for me, it just immediately connects me with that feeling of possibility. Even you know even if it's a rainy morning and I'm taking 40 minutes to to run a few K, I don't care. It just makes me feel something happens and it's like a switch goes and I'm like, it's okay. it's goingnna i can I can do anything or I can do this. And and sometimes, you know when i I was invited recently to speak at the running show in Birmingham, which was incredible. And I did kind of have a lot of imposter
00:44:33
Speaker
It's syndrome at the beginning of thinking, oh, but I'm not really, you know, but it's like, stop it. It's not about, are you a legit? It's like, I go out and I run, therefore I'm a runner. Therefore I have something to say and I know I'm not alone in, you know. What was what was the what was the feedback at the show then? Just a very honest, yeah, again, just a very, very honest chat about when I started truly running, the reasons why, and how alongside, you know, alongside that third diagnosis, alongside a year that involved a mastectomy, lung surgery, you know, all sorts of ups and downs. It was like this steady, what's the word? It was just this wonderfully positive addition. And, you know, running with my lovely friend, Bryony, and it didn't matter if I, it was it was like therapy when you run with someone, you know. I love running on my own as well with my music and my podcast, but running with a friend two or three times a week, it doesn't matter if one of these crying, fed up.
00:45:30
Speaker
It's a rant as well as a run, but it is um I think it just gives us so much and I'm so grateful to have found it. Yeah. I mean, I suppose I get a little bit of that from walking because I'm not really a runner, but I don't i don't know whether you i don't know you liked it, but I did have my first run ever I went to, there's a guy, oh there's a park in kind of like South London and I was in London the other week and I was like right I'm just gonna go to his free run club and just turned up and I didn't have my glasses on he's like hi mate who are you kind of thing and I'm like it's fair cause we've been we've been chatting a while and I want to say the, I can't remember the name of the park it's not Bagnell Park
00:46:14
Speaker
Burgess Park, and he runs a free run club. And so I ran for the first time. My PT a few years back was like low impact. You're getting old and I fell. So just keep, just maybe power walk it round. But yeah, I think, I think for me power walking was, was my, was my thing. And yeah, your, your mind just goes to a kind of different place. And then you get all these amazing ideas and inspiration and motivation. And I think it sounds like it's the same. yeah on it And for me, i'm I'm a big fan of the 5K. I think a 5K is a beautiful thing, a humble 5K. It doesn't need to be 7, 10, 15, it needs to be a half marathon. I think I could even do a 5K if it tried. I mean, granted my toenails went black after a run for the first time. That makes you a runner. if you've If you've had a lost, I lost the toenail after the marathon and that was like, well, I'm officially a runner now.
00:47:13
Speaker
Oh, you've done a marathon. I've done two marathons, yeah, very slowly, but I've done two marathons. Would you recommend a marathon? and I think the first one I did with but Deborah was absolutely one of the highlights of my life. It was during lockdown, it was, well, we were we did, it was the virtual marathon and we ran for the Royal Marston and we were able to design the route ourselves. It was properly, you know, very much part of the official marathon, but everyone was doing their own, you know, doing their own version of it. So we started on the steps, finished on the steps, took us over six hours, but it was phenomenal. And then the second year, the year after I did the, I did the, you know, back to normal and on the, on the route that everybody knows. And um it I found it, I did find it really hard and I.
00:47:56
Speaker
I'm glad I did it, but I i don't think, I'm um i'm not a marathon runner, but I would, gosh, we are I am a marathon runner. What am I saying? Limitless, then bloody hell. It's ridiculous. No, I am a marathon runner, but I, it's not something that I feel compelled to necessarily repeat. It's very, it was very, very, it's brutal. And I hadn't really trained properly. And, but no, I can tick it off. It's brilliant. but i think five ten I've walked a marathon. I did a local marathon walk. I took me seven and a half hours at my back. Yeah. The night, the shine walks and the moon walks and yeah, all of those. They're great, but they're hard. They're really hard. I feel like that. I don't really feel it. up but Well, my body certainly isn't made made for long distance running.
00:48:42
Speaker
ah sorry, I was going to say the imposter syndrome thing about the running. Do you
Imposter Syndrome and Positive Stories
00:48:47
Speaker
have any imposter syndrome about the your breast cancer diagnosis? In any way? No, I mean, yeah, well, the only way I sometimes feel and that's maybe that's sometimes why I spend long periods of time not really talking about it online is that I feel just so so aware of um where I currently sit. And I, and so, you know, when a being in this stable place I'm in, I sometimes feel that I just don't, um maybe that's not my role at this point to be that ah other than hopefully wanting to be in a positive example of someone living in the long term, I feel sometimes like I would never want to currently how things are for me imply that it's anywhere near as challenging it is for me at the moment that it is for a lot of other people. So I'm just very aware of that.
00:49:42
Speaker
Someone said to me of the other week, they said, because um mean I mean, I have conversations where I'm like, do people what even want to hear anything that I say? So I mix it up with random stuff. But someone said, people need to hear you positive stories as well. Someone said that to me. It's important. And, you know, if you, like I say, if you look at my Instagram kind of like growth over the last year, it was right after Nikki died. I was like, right, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to do something and I'm almost not ignore feedback, but you know, I'm going to kind of overcome this imposter syndrome. You know, should I even be here at all? And, you know, cause no one else is actually saying it to me. It's just me. It's in my head.
00:50:28
Speaker
It's all that, it's that inner critic and that inner voice that probably comes and probably permeates through other areas of your life as well. Because I think if we're prone to an imposter syndrome kind of in a dialogue, it tends to. touch other areas as well. does But even i'm I met a secondary breast cancer patient on Saturday and she was like, you know, do she doesn't feel she should even be in the secondary breast cancer kind of community. And I'm like, well, you've got secondary breast cancer. I'm like, that's it's it's a thing. So I don't know i don't know what is causing everyone to feel like an imposter everywhere, but
00:51:07
Speaker
I don't know. I think, I think the only, the only thing, and you obviously you've kind of touched on it then was like, sometimes maybe it can be a bit overwhelming to be like a hundred percent inside of everything that's going on at the moment with every person that you follow. It's can be quite a lot. And for my cope, my way of coping is I, that's not, I have to, you know, I have to make it okay for myself and my own yeah it's kind for you mike Yeah, exactly. My coping way has always been, if if I'm in this privileged position right now, of being able to kind of shrink the impact it's having on my life, then I, and also I'm very, I don't want to be defined by that. You know, i won I hope I see myself as someone very fortunate to be living in the long term. I hope that continues for as long as it possibly can. And and therefore,
00:52:08
Speaker
I want to make it a smaller part of my life, but at the same time it's a contradiction because I also want to raise awareness and I want to share my story because I think it's so important. So it's a constant kind of. I mean, again, I've met, I've met, I've met people who were like, I don't, I've had my diagnosis. I don't want to be part of the community. I don't want to talk about it. It's in my past and that's, and that's it. And I think whatever we, we are. kind of mulling it over and that means we kind of still want to be there and there's some benefit either we're giving or receiving. It's obviously is again it's like a it's like a reminder isn't it you know when you see people are kind of really struggling and you you know we can send you know nice messages and everything but it's I'm sure they would want
00:53:01
Speaker
they would want to feel that maybe they inspired you. you know i you know I mean, I think i think even that's the thing with like my my dad not being here, I always kind of like think, well, could I make him proud by something I was doing now? No, he's not here to kind of, you know to see it, just to be feel inspired in some way. I don't know, probably overthinking it, that's my thing. I wish I could just reach in and just you know just turn down that overthinking because when we see it in each other we recognise it but it's like you you your dad absolutely will be so proud would be so proud. but But I know that makes me me and it probably makes you you and you know the journey you've been through.
00:53:42
Speaker
and the position you are now, yeah life's still stressful but the fact that you're in this place where you you can talk about it and share and inspire people is I think that's testament to obviously it's all the words resilience and um but you know you wouldn't you wouldn't have got there if you hadn't have been through all these other these other bits so it's a journey i mean some people don't even like the word journey i'm like it's a yeah it's a journey everyone's journey is different yes but no arrival point with no with no that's what i think you know we just keep moving forward right are we going to um cut this short amazing to chat i hope we can meet up at some point in yes probably in london
00:54:29
Speaker
But yeah, it'd be nice to see see your face in real life again. and Thank you. Thanks for the chat today. It's lovely. Thanks for sharing. I appreciate it.