Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome to the CCDA Podcast. My name is Lorenzo Watson, President and CEO of the Christian Community Development Association, and I'm your host for this episode.
Speaker: Today, I'm honored to be joined by Ms. Elizabeth Perkins. I call her Auntie Liz. who is the co-president and program admissions coordinator of the John and Vera Mae Perkins Foundation.
Speaker: Auntie Liz is a leader and practitioner and an important voice in the continuing story of Christian community development. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. In particular, I'm excited to explore the heart of CCD, reflect on some stories that have shaped it, and talk about why this work continues to matter for the church and our communities today.
Speaker: So I'm happy to be with you, Auntie Liz. I'm happy to be with you, Lorenzo, nephew.
Speaker: All right. Well, before we get into Christian community development as a philosophy, I want to start with you and with your story. So many of our listeners will recognize the Perkins name and know something about your dad and his influence on Christian community development.
Speaker: But you've had your own journey, your own experiences, and your own perspective on this work. So I'd love to start there. So tell us a little bit about Elizabeth Perkins, who you are, and what experiences have shaped the way you understand community, faith, and Christian community development.
Speaker: Well, I am Elizabeth Perkins. My name is Vera Elizabeth Perkins. I was named after my mom and I serve as the co-president of the John and Vera Mae Perkins Foundation here in Jackson, Mississippi.
Speaker: I am the youngest of eight. There were four boys and four girls and ah both of our parents. So it was 10 people in the house. And so I feel like I've been a part of this work as far as I can remember.
Speaker: ah But it was not... We didn't know it as CCD then. It was just a way of life for us. And I've had my own journey. You know, and people ask that question, you know, why why are you here? and and But you got to understand, God has taken me through my own journey and led me here.
Speaker: Yes. it's not I'm not here because my dad. I'm not here because of my mom. I ended up here because of the calling on my life for this. And it started up with children at Harambe. I was working with the youth there and and their families, and it just moved from there. Now i'm here at the Perkins Foundation, where we are continuing to serve children and families and community through ah youth development, through mentoring, leadership development, those kind of things. And so for me, you know, this is deeply personal. Yes.
Speaker: Because, yes, my family is a big part of starting what Christian community development is. And so that part is personal.
Speaker: But the other side is the spiritual, yeah where the Lord you know called me here and I'm here because of him. Y'all don't understand. If God didn't call me here, I would be here.
Speaker: That's right. But when I wasn't here, I felt like I was walking in the wilderness. Mm-hmm. And I wasn't here for five years. And so that was a wilderness period in my life.
Speaker: And the Lord led me back. I never thought I would be back. but my life was so empty yeah when I was gone. But go ahead. Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker: And I believe you're absolutely right. One of the things that we talk ah about on the staff is the need to really be in tune with not just the activity of Christian community development, but that spiritual formation of spirit of Christian community development, right? Because all of the things that we do day-to-day flows out of our relationship with our Creator.
Speaker: And so it's it's exciting to hear you reinforce that idea that this work starts with responding to this to a deep call from from God, our Creator.
Speaker: I'd love for those who are just getting to to know you and to hear your voice, I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about what's happening today at The Foundation. Today, through the Perkins Foundation, we are continuing to serve children and families and churches and communities through youth development, leadership formation, Christian community development, justice pilgrimages, and opportunities to bring people together and ah around the gospel.
Speaker: Yes. ah Well, around the gospel of justice, love, and reconciliation. lu hu Amen to that. And I know that you know part of part of that work involves pilgrimages, where you you take the ah kids and they do you know these these journeys that allow their spirits to be formed as well. I mean, there are so many really cool things that happen.
Speaker: like i know you travel to like the Pacific Northwest from time to time, and you have your Perkins Fellows. Yeah. you know what's as As people learn more about the foundation, like what's um what's one thing that you would want them to know about the foundation today? like What's one activity that you're really excited about?
Speaker: would say the pilgrimages. Okay. Okay. And that's where my heart is now. Yes. It's about getting people to take this journey.
Speaker: Take this journey. A lot of times people say these things happened so long ago, but do you know about them? Right. Have you experienced them? and And it's an opportunity for people to ask questions in a safe space. Right.
Speaker: You know, sometimes people don't want to go on pilgrims because they think they're going to get shut down. And here at the Perkins Foundation is a safe space for people to ask questions, to...
Speaker: just learn more about their history, learn more about justice and reconciliation and why it's important and how this is a biblical thing. These these are these are biblical things. These are not just fly-by-night optional issues. you know These are biblical. So that's one of the most important things for me right now. Also, our interns.
Speaker: Okay. Interns are important because so you know they they're young and they're excited. And and then this is a great time for spiritual formation.
Speaker: Yes. To have them become part of something bigger than themselves as they grow. you know And so I'm excited about that. Yes. Yeah. Well, that's that's really good. I want to go back to something that you were you were saying a little bit earlier as you were introducing yourself and talking about your commitment to the work.
Speaker: And that that's as i've got as I'm getting to know you, that's one thing that I would say I truly admire is your deep connection to your neighbors and to your city. and Because it reminds me of the stories that I heard about you know how CCDA started. So that's that's one thing that I've always appreciated, is that this work didn't start with people just getting in the room you know and writing theory on a whiteboard, but it grew out of real people doing real work in real places, trying to follow Jesus and responding to that call through their actions. Yeah.
Speaker: So what drew you to CCD? It's funny when people ask that question because, you know, realized I never had a moment when I discovered Christian community development.
Speaker: I was born into it. And long before was a name for it, I was watching it lived out in my house and with my family. And I watched my parents love Jesus and then try to work out what love required of them, you know, and and where where God planted them.
Speaker: So I didn't first learn about Christian community development as a philosophy. I learned about it as a life, in a lifestyle. Amen. And thank you again for for sharing that. And I absolutely agree. You know, when we think about Christian community development, at its very heart, its very nature,
Speaker: It is loving God and loving neighbor, doing life with those who are around us and not just doing, you know, making our neighbors the the target of our ministry, right? It's not about seeing them as people who need to be fixed, but as seeing our neighbor as individuals who journey with us as we so both seek the the face and the heart of God.
Speaker: Absolutely. Loving God and loving neighbor. So, Auntie Liz, as folks get to know you and to hear more about your story, I'd love for you to share what was it like growing up in the Perkins family?
Speaker: I always smile when people ask me that question. And I smile because, you know, he wasn't Dr. Perkins, Dr. John M. Perkins, and Mama wasn't Dr. Vera Mae Perkins. They were Mama and Ed.
Speaker: And but being the youngest of eight, I already told y'all I was named after my mom. Right. She's like my shero. And I, and I feel honored to have her named. And, and, um,
Speaker: My middle name, Elizabeth, was named I was named after Elizabeth Wilson. And she was a lady who her husband, pop mom and papa Wilson took daddy under their wing when he went to California. They had just lost their son. And so okay he was like a god scene of a son for them.
Speaker: And I've always counted it privilege to be named after those women because they're very strong women. And our house was full. too ah Like I said, there's four girls and four boys and and and whoever else stopped by.
Speaker: And Mama, she worked all day and this' every evening she came home and had a a hot meal for us and and and whoever else was around. And I think now and wonder,
Speaker: how mama did that every day. And the reason I'm talking a lot about mama is because people hear so much about daddy and, and she was the wind beneath his wings.
Speaker: And so she did so much and she was so faithful and, you know, we call her Proverbs 31 one, you know? Yes. And I think some of my earliest theology came from watching her, okay you know, ah but I didn't know it was theology then.
Speaker: You know, I just saw a woman who loved God and it's showing her how faithful she was. And so when you talk about what was it like, we had people coming through our home like Fannie Lou Hamer, Charles Evers, Medgar Everson.
Speaker: We had Bill Pennell, Tom Skinner with his camera, you know, and a lot of people don't know he he used to always have have a camera. Yes. And Chuck Colson, Dolphus Weary, who's my surrogate father, and Tony Edmonds, and just a host of other people. But, you know, ah as a little girl, I didn't understand the significance of all that.
Speaker: Those were just people coming to our house. um They ate, they laughed, they, you know, we had fun together. And they prayed together. and day um And so that was what our home was like. And for me, that was normal.
Speaker: Yes. That was normal. So I didn't think anything of it. i didn't think it was extraordinary. I just thought it was ordinary. and ah Then I grew up and I began to see the influence that my parents had on people.
Speaker: And I think I really didn't fully understand it until a few years ago, you know. Even more so with daddy passing.
Speaker: And so that was something. But yeah, my our house was was an open door. Sounds like it was really active. Lots these lots of people in and out.
Speaker: What are some some memories that helped shape your understanding of of what community is? Watching my mom and dad, you know, every, no one was a stranger.
Speaker: They all, you know, they always had, like mama, but I think about mama, I think about how she was nurturing the women. she was ah She always had a a woman who she was mentoring.
Speaker: m And that's why um so i always had a person in my office. um you know I have my own office, right? But I always had person sitting over there because I wanted to be speaking in their lives and and hearing what they're thinking and and ah yes and doing the same.
Speaker: yeah My dad, he was just this big personality. My mom quiet. She was quiet, but she was a very, very important part of this dynamic. Yeah.
Speaker: Of all the visitors, is there anybody that that stands out? I'm only thinking, and maybe it wasn't like this for you, but, you know, just given some of the folks that you've, that you named, and I would imagine being a young child in that space trying to sneak and hear and listen.
Speaker: do you have any memories like that of where you were just kind of in the background, but soaking in that information? I think with Fannie,
Speaker: i remember them being out front in our front yard, all sitting around in in chairs talking about justice. yeah Talking about the civil rights movement and and the next moves and that kind of stuff.
Speaker: and ah And I remember Tom Skinner. we were in When we were in Mendenhall, not when we not when we're up here in Jacksonville, when we were in Mendenhall, he would just go around. We'd be in summer camp. We'd go around and he was taking pictures. I have a picture to this day that I enlarged that he took of me as a little girl. It was one of the only pictures that I had that somebody else took, you know.
Speaker: um But the the conversations, I think I didn't fully understand the conversations, but I knew something important was going on.
Speaker: when i was When I turned 18, I said to Daddy, I started saying, let's make a memory because he worked all the time. And so if I wanted to spend some time with him, i would go up to him and I would say, let's make a memory. And he began to understand what that meant. That meant I wanted to spend some time with him.
Speaker: Yes. And so we would get in the car and drive. I mean, up until died, we were doing that. So let's make a memory. I would get him a Diet Coke. I was going to die Mountain get him some chips and get me some chips. And we just ride and and ride around town, you know, looking at stuff. And he's pointing out stuff.
Speaker: And, you know, he belonged to everybody. Yeah. right But I had to, I made my time. You know, I took my time. And I feel like that was important because he didn't have, he didn't have parents. He didn't know if he needed to do that.
Speaker: But I knew what I wanted and what I needed. And so I got it. You know, I took it. I took it. so You took your time. Awesome. Awesome.
Speaker: Well, I'm i'm sure he he appreciated it as well. you know as you talk about it, it's clear that you certainly appreciated that time you were able to take and make. So what do you think people often misunderstand about your dad's work?
Speaker: I think sometimes people know daddy without knowing the center of daddy's work. You know, they know the civil rights. They know the books. They know justice. They know reconciliation, community balance, all those things.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. and even the speeches, you know. But Daddy's life made no sense without Jesus. And so he believed that our deepest human problem is ah separation from God.
Speaker: That was foundational for Daddy. He said, Talked about when Paul says in 2 Corinthians, you know, God was reconciling us into himself in Christ and then entrusted us to the ministry of reconciliation.
Speaker: That was foundational, I believe, for daddy, you know. And and i think that's one of the main reasons he set out on this, the journey he set out on, because it was all scripturally based. Yes.
Speaker: It's so funny. yeah What I'm thinking about is how people hear little things that he said. well How can I put this?
Speaker: You know that one where he talks about giving a man a fishy fish for a day? Yes. Oh, no, give a day ye man a fishy fish e for life. And then he says, no, the man who owns the pond.
Speaker: Yes. Determine who eats. Mm-hmm. and And someone said that to me the other day, and I was thinking about, that was so clever, and it was so true. And those are the things that people remember.
Speaker: but But underneath even that saying, there's a spiritual connection there. you know And so it's deeper than what people are actually hearing.
Speaker: Yeah. so and And when he talked about reconciliation, it wasn't just about black people and white people being together. It was about us true people truly being reconciled ido and how that reconciliation begins with God.
Speaker: You know? Yeah. Yeah. It's like some things that we think are simple. And I think because we're in this circle, they're simple. Right. But they're not simple.
Speaker: Right. They're not simple to people. Sometimes they're easy to say, but we don't always remember it and keep it at the forefront, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you get approached all the time, you know, with with people wanting to tell you about you.
Speaker: Just kind of how do you deal with those misrepresentations? You know, what do what do you hope that people will will do as they learn the reality?
Speaker: what What do you hope that people would be saying as they come across, you know, his story and and and your story and the foundation's work? and that Daddy loved people.
Speaker: Yeah. And that we love people here. Yes. And we we want to be an example of that community that that you come to and and people understand that they're loved here. and You know, what I hope when it comes to my dad is that they read.
Speaker: his books so they can really see a ah deeper person. In his speeches, he's he's it's all philosophy and and his spiritual stuff there. but But in the books, let me tell y'all something.
Speaker: Last week, I listened to let Justice Roll Down on Audible. Okay. So I'm listening to it in my office every day, right? and it's a beautiful, beautiful story.
Speaker: And I knew that, but I hadn't heard it since daddy died, right? i You know, you have your before before death, after death, right? yeah right and and And so in that book, the last four chapters, if you want to know about CCDs,
Speaker: That's what you need to listen to or read. Because Daphne Swery and Artis Fletcher, they they were doing the work of CCD and opening, opening, having a ah flow ah ah wonderful youth program, having opening up a health center, those things that people are now doing all across the country.
Speaker: They did that in little old Mendenhall, Mississippi. And so if you want to understand his work, I say, go back to those last four chapters.
Speaker: You will see his heart in those chapter in those chapters as well. And so that's what I believe. um I believe that. And in I really want to share how important Dolphus Weary is in this whole thing.
Speaker: Okay. Okay. We'll talk about Christian community development. Yes. Dolphus Weary is a pivotal person in the work of Christian community development. Artis Fletcher is a pivotal person. We talk about having the youth program. we talk about having the ministry side. That was adoption. Yes. We talk about having the church side.
Speaker: That was Artis. Okay. So those things were pivotal when we talk about Christian community development. And I want people to know that those two people are super important. Yes. In Christian community development.
Speaker: Yes. Dolphus helped start CCD, but I don't ever see his name anywhere. What do you want to tell us a little bit more about him? Like what is just like ah maybe a brief snippet of his story?
Speaker: Okay. Dolphus Weary was a teen. okay And he began coming to the ministry when when they first started the ministry and stayed with artists.
Speaker: ok And so after he graduated high school, he got he went to college and ended up going to master's college. okay and And he was out there when Martin Luther King got shot.
Speaker: and war um Oh, and it was this. You have to read his story. He wrote a book. ah I ain't coming back. Okay. But he did. Okay. it and um And got used him. One of the things that Duffer says is he'll say that John Perkins wanted me to come back and raise my support.
Speaker: I went to college so people could pay me. You know, without having to raise support, it right? Right, right. So ah he came back, married Rosie. And they began this ministry, you know, ah men being the ministry work with daddy and mom. Right.
Speaker: Okay. And after daddy went Jackson, ah the office was the one who was doing the CCD down there with a team of folks.
Speaker: And so he is so pivotal in this story. And an artist was the the pastor and and nurturing the collective people, right?
Speaker: Right, right. and And you said that, you know, they they both connected when they were teenagers. is Yeah. That's right. Artists was the person doing the civil rights movement. This was just on a regular day.
Speaker: Okay. He had his Volkswagen. And Daddy said, take me downtown. And so Artis, as a teen, was driving him downtown. And they parked downtown. And the man who beat him up, Goon Jones, Sheriff Goon Jones, came up to the window.
Speaker: And Artis told me this story on video. And he said, Goon Jones leaned on the side of where Daddy was sitting. And Goon Jones said, I'm going to ruin you. ah i'm gonna um Right now, I'm finding out where you're getting all your money. Because, you know, he's he's getting donations from all of the country.
Speaker: Right. Find where you get your money, and I'm going destroy you. Wow. And about a year and a half later, that's when the Brandon beating happened. Wow. So he was intent on making sure that he tried to ruin daddy.
Speaker: But God. but the god bug guy But God. But God. Amen. But, you know, it's like those are stories we don't hear and we don't know. all And she can't put them all in everything. But these are those are all behind the scenes stories, how God is wheeling stuff together. you know But when you write a book, it's hard to put all those pieces in there.
Speaker: But I'm going to write a book and put all that in there. You should. You should. And those those are very real investments into young people. Yeah. And I think there's a ton to learn from that. you mean, you talk about like, know, artists and Dolphins being invested in while they were young and you know energetic and and excited.
Speaker: And then they were able to grow in it and then offer you know offer skills back later on. i mean, just, I don't know if you you want to talk more about just the the need to invest in our youth as ah as a part of ministry. It's very, very, very important to invest in our youth. and in And we have, and it's harder It's harder now because of the phone.
Speaker: So you have to be more creative in how you invest and in kids and how you pull them together. ah And, you know, I'm finding that with him not just with the kids, but with the interns.
Speaker: Mm hmm. and But they won't. they're They're so committed. and they're they I say this generation has a justice the spirit.
Speaker: and And so we have to get around that with them yes and lead them toward biblical justice, not just social justice. Biblical justice.
Speaker: And so, and which leads to biblical reconciliation, which leads to all these other things. And I just feel like if you don't have somebody you mentor right now, then get somebody.
Speaker: You got, everybody got something to pour into people, you know? So it's like, you should always have somebody and As we begin to to bring our conversation to a close, let's talk to those individuals who may be questioning the the relevancy of the church today. If we look at just kind of what's happening in the world, people are asking tons and and tons of questions about, you know, how is it that the church and and the people who who call themselves Christian, how are we to be showing up?
Speaker: And so we've talked about where Christian community development came from and some of the convictions that have helped shape this work. But our communities and our country have changed in significant ways since those early years.
Speaker: And at the same time, many of the questions that gave birth to CCD are still with us. Like, you know, how do we love our neighbors well? How do we confront injustice while building something better?
Speaker: and And what does it look like for the church to be faithfully present in a particular community over time? So as you look at our communities today, why do you believe that Christian community development still matters?
Speaker: and And what does the the philosophy offer the church for the moment that we're living in right now? You know, i've thought about that a lot this year. And since Daddy went home to be with the Lord, you know, i heard so many stories about Jesus.
Speaker: how he impacted their lives. You know, at the celebration in Mississippi, you know, i heard stories and at the memorials that we've been doing around the country, I've heard stories and people come up to me and tell me things I've never heard before. They told me how, you know, daddy changed the trajectory of their lives and and how some told me how he introduced them to Jesus And you know some even talked about the change of their their their ministry and their family and their calling.
Speaker: And so I've been hearing all these stories and it reminded me that God does some of deepest work do the relationships.
Speaker: And so it was really all about the relationships. And that's why I believe that this conversation matters right now. And we're living in a time where we have communication. We can communicate with someone across the country and in the world in seconds. Right.
Speaker: Yet people can live next door to us and don't even know us. Right. And we're divided in so many ways. We're divided racially, economically, systematically, politically, generationally, all these different things. And even sometimes in the church, we're divided.
Speaker: And here comes Jesus saying, Love God, love your neighbor. Here comes Paul saying, in Christ we have been given the ministry of reconciliation. And then here comes scripture reminding us that every human bears the image of God.
Speaker: And those truths are are just as important today as they were when my parents began their work. Yes. So maybe we are asking some different questions, you know, in this era.
Speaker: We're asking different questions, but so humans still need Jesus. That's right. And people still need community. People ah still need dignity and people still need justice. All of these things still matter. And people still need reconciliation. Yes.
Speaker: So for me, that's why I think this is still matters. And the church. Yes. The church is still a place where good news still need to be told and it needs to embody yes good news.
Speaker: Yes. You know, the good news of the gospel, not just good news, the good news of the gospel. and And we also feel like we need to thrive where God has planted us. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: You know, we we we're always searching for the next best thing, not realizing that if God, if I've been placed here, maybe God has something for me here.
Speaker: I think that's important. Yeah, that's really good. And you know you i mean you you stated it extremely well, and you like despite all of the complications and complexities we see in the world, it comes down to, are you loving God and are you loving your neighbor? And you know at the heart of it, people need relationship and community.
Speaker: you know that that's ah That's a fundamental need. And so so thank thank you for for bringing us back to that center, right? Just kind of. Are you helping people be in relationship?
Speaker: And are you helping people move their lives and into greater alignment with the with the Holy Spirit? Yeah. That's awesome. Well, thank you for listening to the CCDA podcast, and thank you, Auntie Liz, for joining us today.
Speaker: If you want to learn more about CCDA and how you can get involved, check out the show notes of this episode. In a few weeks, on September 2nd, I'll be joined with Auntie Liz again, and during that conversation, we're going to do a deeper dive into the the principles of Christian community development.
Speaker: The information will be in the show notes for that as well. So, Be sure to take a look. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker: This episode is produced by Sarah Callen in association with Christina Fore. We will be back soon with another episode featuring CCD practitioners who are committed to seeing people and communities experience God's Shalom.
Speaker: We'll see you then.
