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Hand Them Over to Satan: Understanding One of the Bible's Most Controversial Verses
18 Plays1 month ago
There is a shocking command in the Bible: "You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord" (1 Cor. 5:5). What does this mean? Find out in today's episode as Brandon, Chris, and Rob dive into the Scripture to discover how love and holiness go hand-in-hand, and how Satan is even involved in the process.
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Transcript
Is "Deliver This Man to Satan" Scriptural?
00:00:22
brandon g b
You're to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. Is that statement scriptural? Sounds like something out of a horror movie, or at least too harsh to be biblical.
00:00:36
brandon g b
Well, those words are not from an angry old preacher that's just grumpy about this and that, as preachers tend to be. These are actually words from Paul, and he's talking about a practice that Christians are to adopt and churches are to implement.
00:00:54
brandon g b
But man, that sounds just way off, doesn't it? Hand this person over to Satan.
00:00:58
Christian McKenzie
Mm-hmm.
00:01:01
brandon g b
Well, the reason we're talking about this today on the Faith 168 podcast is there is a video going viral, as they say, on the Tic Tacs, TikTok or whatever, whatever kind of app it is. I'm not sure if it's a video platform or something you can plug into your clock at home.
00:01:21
brandon g b
But there's a video going viral about this fellow preaching on this, and it's just caused a lot of controversy because it just doesn't seem very loving, very graceful. I mean, God is love, and and it just doesn't seem to line up with Scripture. So we thought it'd be good for us to unpack this subject today, and we do welcome you to the Faith 168 Podcast.
Hosts Introduce Themselves
00:01:44
brandon g b
We're glad to be together recording another episode.
00:01:47
brandon g b
and We are joined by Chris and Rob. The three stooges are all together.
00:01:54
Christian McKenzie
Mm-hmm.
00:01:54
brandon g b
How's Chris doing?
00:01:56
Christian McKenzie
Oh, Chris is doing all right. Can't complain. My wife still loves me, hasn't kicked me out of the house yet, still preaching the word of God. And we got a baby on the way. So a little girl, Eloise.
00:02:07
brandon g b
Congratulations.
00:02:10
Christian McKenzie
So we're we're looking forward to that.
00:02:11
brandon g b
That's beautiful. What a blessing.
00:02:11
Rob
sb
00:02:14
brandon g b
What about you, Rob? What's been going on with you, man?
00:02:17
Rob
A little bit of everything. um It's summer, and so I'm not in school. However, I keep myself busy, but I don't have to wake up at a certain time, so that's nice.
00:02:29
Rob
That's been peaceful.
00:02:32
Christian McKenzie
yeah
00:02:33
brandon g b
There you go. Until school starts, then you got to get back on that schedule.
00:02:36
Rob
Right.
00:02:37
brandon g b
Hit you like a ton of bricks.
00:02:39
Christian McKenzie
yeah
00:02:39
Rob
Absolutely.
00:02:39
brandon g b
All right. Something for look forward to there.
Reacting to a Viral TikTok Preacher
00:02:43
brandon g b
um So we've got some raised eyebrows when it comes to this statement about handing somebody over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh.
00:02:53
brandon g b
And before we get into the scripture and such, why don't we just hear this clip from TikTok?
00:03:05
Rob
the hands-on.
00:04:05
brandon g b
Man, that was intense.
00:04:05
Rob
It's good.
00:04:06
Christian McKenzie
it Makes you think that, you know, as that's playing, you just want to go up to someone that's been causing some trouble and slap them across the face. You know, like, listen to this.
00:04:15
brandon g b
Yeah. Yeah. That sounds like a WWE entrance song, man.
00:04:19
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:04:21
brandon g b
You know?
00:04:21
Christian McKenzie
Yeah. Oh, man.
00:04:23
brandon g b
Even if what he said was totally heretical, which we're going to get into, I'd have to believe it with just the charisma that he used and the background music, you know?
00:04:32
Christian McKenzie
Mm-hmm.
00:04:34
Christian McKenzie
Yeah, well, ah you know, it's almost like a headbanger right there. he but
00:04:40
brandon g b
So we could never figure out what this guy's name is. I've been looking him up in the background. I know he's in Atlanta, um and it's like a newer church plant.
00:04:51
brandon g b
And this fellow, there's a lot of things he says that are are really good, I think. I've heard couple of things he said.
00:04:56
Christian McKenzie
Yeah, I've heard a lot of good things from him too.
00:04:58
brandon g b
Yeah. um But this one's out of left field, it seems. So he's talking about somebody that seems to be wandering from the church, maybe living in open sin. And he pretty much says, look, I'm not i'm not praying for them to get better.
00:05:14
brandon g b
I'm not praying for God to bless them. I'm handing them over to Satan so they can basically hit rock bottom and they've got no place else to look but up. And what I think should be our task
Understanding Paul's Words in Context
00:05:27
brandon g b
in this episode is to talk about whether or not this statement is biblical.
00:05:27
Rob
Thank you.
00:05:32
brandon g b
And if it is, what on earth does it mean? Because again, it's very horrifying. So what you guys think? Bible or no Bible? Truth or untruth?
00:05:43
Christian McKenzie
Truth. Well, I think the important thing that he points out there, ah when people hear this video and and this audio at first, they might not realize that he just read that right out of scripture.
00:05:59
Christian McKenzie
It wasn't something he was making up. But when you turn over to 1 Corinthians 5, the verse he's referencing is is verse 5, where it says, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
00:06:21
Christian McKenzie
and then what was going on was there was this guy at the church of Corinth. If you read up at the top of that, that chapter that was practicing sexual immorality.
00:06:35
Christian McKenzie
Uh, he, he was, he had taken his father's wife to, I mean, like a crazy ordeal. And, and we act like things like that don't happen today, but I mean, there's a lot of crazy things that happened today.
00:06:44
brandon g b
Yeah.
00:06:49
brandon g b
Yeah, for sure.
00:06:50
Christian McKenzie
And, the The rest of that that passage underneath that is don't boast over these things. don't Don't applaud these things. Don't just pat people on the back and say, oh, we'll get past this type of thing.
00:07:08
Christian McKenzie
He said that dude that's practicing sexual immorality that took his father's wife. and is doing something shameful, give them up to Satan, like hand them over.
00:07:21
Christian McKenzie
ah and And the point of handing them over is out of love. I think what that guy said, his name is Philip Anthony ah Mitchell.
00:07:31
brandon g b
Yeah, I found it finally.
00:07:31
Christian McKenzie
Is it? Yeah. Philip. Yeah. Okay, good. Okay. Yeah. Philip Anthony Mitchell. What he said right there was, was very on board with what the scripture is, is declaring is that we love you so much.
The Purpose and Pain of Repentance
00:07:45
Christian McKenzie
We would rather you experience the pain of your sin that leads to repentance than to die and go to hell forever. And, and so, yeah, I think that's biblical. He just, I mean, he took it right out of the scripture.
00:08:00
brandon g b
Yeah. Just seems like it wasn't because you don't hear about it often, you know?
00:08:01
Rob
Thank
00:08:06
Christian McKenzie
it's ah It's on the unpopular side of what we like to talk about. ah but But the grace of God is in that, too. And the fact that we deserve everlasting punishment, but we're given an opportunity to repent.
00:08:22
Christian McKenzie
and And repentance is sometimes painful ah because it requires us to look the awful, sinful, ugly self in the eye who we are in the eyes and, and turn away from that man to, to follow Jesus.
00:08:41
Christian McKenzie
So
00:08:43
brandon g b
Right. Yeah, we'll get into the passage here in a minute where you mentioned there was a little bit of grace there. So hold your horses, preacher.
00:08:49
Christian McKenzie
yeah.
00:08:49
brandon g b
um
00:08:49
Christian McKenzie
ah
00:08:50
brandon g b
Rob, what do you think, man? Biblical or unbiblical? And why why not?
00:08:56
Rob
Yeah, absolutely. I think like most things, it needs to be considered in context and understood. um This isn't a prayer that you pray just over anybody.
00:09:09
Rob
This isn't a prayer you pray over, somebody that's given you a hard time. um And i think it's also,
00:09:15
brandon g b
Right.
00:09:18
Christian McKenzie
Man.
00:09:19
Rob
that's never right there also needs to be an understanding of the context of what it means to be turned over to Satan. um I don't think we are saying, you know, Satan is just going to have every right to to just completely devour you.
00:09:38
Rob
God is still sovereign. He still is in authority. What the church is able to do is to release the member from the church back to, um in accordance to what this man was saying, it sounds like um he's worried about his soul.
00:09:59
Rob
We know that God's grace is sufficient to cover all sin. And so if we're worried about the soul, we're not worried about a sin that is committed by a Christian, but a sin that's committed by somebody that's
Church Discipline's Role in Restoration
00:10:11
Rob
not saved.
00:10:11
Christian McKenzie
Thank you.
00:10:12
Rob
And so what the church has done is they've come to the understanding, um this person might not even be saved. We're not sure. And if you're like if you're not saved, you don't belong in the church.
00:10:26
Rob
um And so we're going to hand you back to where you were before in hopes that seeing what you're doing, seeing where you how far you've fallen,
00:10:39
Rob
that you'll repent and come back. and And hopefully, um, the, uh, invitation, and it sounds like it is from Philip and it is from Paul, the the invitation is to get them back.
00:10:53
Rob
It's not just to leave them with Satan, but it's to get them back in the church, in Christ, a part of the ministry going forward.
00:10:54
Christian McKenzie
Mm-hmm.
00:11:02
Rob
Um, It's going to lead to embarrassment. It's going to lead to um so some ugly things. But it's all for the sake of that person's soul.
00:11:14
Rob
But it's also important, even if the man is a Christian, if he's leading other people astray, especially non-believers, to thinking that sexual immorality or whatever sin of choice the congregation has, that's okay, and it's unrepentant,
00:11:34
Rob
um he's going to be in danger of leading other people, kind of what Jesus said about the Pharisees, where he's he's making disciples that are twice as fit for hell as he is.
00:11:39
brandon g b
Mm-hmm.
00:11:47
Rob
oh And so it's important that we do that, not just for the sake of that one man,
00:11:48
Christian McKenzie
yeah
00:11:55
Rob
but for the sake of many. um And so it's not something that's done out of hatred. It's something that's done out of extreme love, love for that individual, for them either to get back in right standing with the church and repent to God or to be saved and then to lead people down the righteous path, not down the path that leads to um separation from God.
00:12:03
Christian McKenzie
yeah
00:12:15
Christian McKenzie
you
00:12:18
Christian McKenzie
yeah
00:12:24
Christian McKenzie
Well, it's kind of like if I were to have a cookout at my house and you have my family there, you know, my wife and my kids and then people from the community come over and ah they they can come and they can be there and they can have fellowship and And be a part of it.
00:12:42
Christian McKenzie
But if someone from the community comes over to my house for this cookout. And they do something against my rules. They're out of there. Get out. You don't you don't belong here.
00:12:54
Christian McKenzie
Get out. Go home. But if my son does the same thing. I don't kick him out and say get out of here. I might say go to your room.
00:13:06
Christian McKenzie
But he's still there. And so I think that kind of summarizes a little bit about what you're talking about. You're telling them to go back where they belong. Hey, you you are welcome to hear what we've got to say.
00:13:19
Christian McKenzie
And we've let you sit here. We've let you fellowship with us. But now you're doing this to your dad in the scripture or your you're living an unrepentant life.
00:13:28
brandon g b
a
00:13:31
Christian McKenzie
You're living in sin and you're glorifying sin and you're not repenting of sin. therefore we're now looking at you and realizing this isn't your house.
00:13:43
Christian McKenzie
You know, you're not a part of this family. Uh, and, and so you got to go home until you are, uh, until you realize what's going on here. So,
00:13:53
brandon g b
Yeah, good stuff. um So I think we've established that what Philip ah Anthony Mitchell was saying was biblical, that most of what he was articulating is straight from the scripture from 1 Corinthians 5 verses 1 through 5.
00:14:11
brandon g b
But let's dive into this just a little bit more. um When he talks about hand this man over to Satan, let's be really clear. What is he not saying?
00:14:23
brandon g b
What does that not mean? I like how Robbie already clarified that, you know, it's not like ah this is not a daily prayer guide, you know, like you're in traffic and you get angry, like at Lord hand these people over to Satan, you know.
00:14:32
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:14:35
brandon g b
um This is a special circumstance. This is not. um Well, it's it's a unique circumstance, basically.
00:14:44
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:14:44
brandon g b
There's no other way to describe it.
00:14:46
Rob
Thank you.
00:14:46
brandon g b
But what does he not mean by hand this man over to Satan?
00:14:53
Christian McKenzie
Well, I mean, there's a lot of avenues for, for that question in particular, but, he's not saying that every time there's controversy, uh, that, that, you you've got to make a huge fuss.
00:15:10
Christian McKenzie
And I think that's something we can go both ways on this.
00:15:10
brandon g b
Right.
00:15:13
Christian McKenzie
So often, like we can go to the extremes both ways. We can allow way too much, which it seems that's what was going on in the church of Corinth at that time. And we're too relaxed about things.
00:15:24
Christian McKenzie
And sometimes we can be way too stern. And then someone, you know,
00:15:30
Christian McKenzie
doesn' it doesn't sit in the right pew. And then all of a sudden you're like, you sat in my pew, I'm delivering you unto Satan, you heathen. And, ah you know, it can't be personal.
00:15:41
Christian McKenzie
It has to be biblical. And i think sometimes we try to merge our personal feelings with biblical truth, and it it just doesn't work.
00:15:44
Rob
Thank you.
00:15:54
Christian McKenzie
ah There's people I don't get along with. And I still serve right beside them because they're my brother. ah oh Who was it that and a couldn't get along in the book of Acts?
00:16:06
Christian McKenzie
They had to go separate ways. I can't remember. It just left my head.
00:16:09
brandon g b
Paul and Mark.
00:16:11
Christian McKenzie
Yeah, Paul. Okay, yeah. Paul and Mark. Yep. So Paul and Mark, they didn't deliver each other unto Satan. They just said, we can't get along right now. So I'm going to go this way. You're going to that way.
00:16:22
Christian McKenzie
They were still brothers, um you know, and, and oh, Barnabas.
00:16:25
brandon g b
Paul and Barnabas, actually. Sorry.
00:16:27
Christian McKenzie
Okay. But Mark, de Mark went with Barnabas, didn't he?
00:16:31
brandon g b
ah Yeah.
00:16:31
Christian McKenzie
Or yeah.
00:16:32
brandon g b
And then Paul took Silas, I believe.
00:16:32
Christian McKenzie
Okay. Yeah. Okay. So that's, that's where Mark was in that.
00:16:36
brandon g b
Robbie's son.
00:16:38
Christian McKenzie
Yeah. But yeah, I think,
00:16:38
Rob
what
00:16:40
Christian McKenzie
but yeah i think
00:16:40
Rob
Yes.
Balancing Biblical Approach with Discipline
00:16:42
Christian McKenzie
I think sometimes we can get a little personal with this and, and start misusing it. And then every time someone makes you upset, well, it's time, it's time to hand them back over to Satan.
00:16:54
Christian McKenzie
But this, this really, I think is focused more on, uh, the unrepentant unbeliever that is a lot of times posing as a believer, uh, uh, within the ranks of believers.
00:17:08
Christian McKenzie
So,
00:17:11
brandon g b
So would we agree that 1 Corinthians 5 is about the topic of church discipline,
00:17:21
Rob
Yeah, absolutely.
00:17:21
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:17:22
Rob
um I was going to say, so one of the commentaries that I use said something really cool about this verse, ah specifically with the turning someone over to Satan.
00:17:39
Rob
It's less about turning them over to Satan and more ah but about delivering the person into Satan's spear of influence.
00:17:52
Rob
um
00:17:52
brandon g b
Hmm, that's good.
00:17:53
Rob
Satan satan has very limited authority. The only thing he can do is what God tells him he can do. um And so delivering him over to Satan, he is still within um the care, wish it which is gracious and loving and good of God.
00:18:15
Rob
um However, I like that distinction. I think it helps us understand um the the nuance. It's not...
00:18:26
Rob
that we're just sending somebody straight to Satan. It's we're letting them have to deal with, uh, the way I see this is Israel, uh, walking through the wilderness.
00:18:30
brandon g b
Mm-hmm.
00:18:38
Rob
They, um, start talking about, about Moses and Aaron and God lifts his hand of protection up off the, um, off the community
00:18:46
Christian McKenzie
Yeah. some Don't talk bad about your pastors.
00:18:50
Rob
Right.
00:18:51
Christian McKenzie
yeah
00:18:51
Rob
And what happens? Snakes come in and start biting the people. oh You know, what happens when we we rebel against God?
00:19:01
Rob
God lifts that hedge of protection. The good news is, is that God always is in in the business of restoration. For those people... He told ma Moses once they repented, hey, hold up a bronze serpent and anybody that looks to it will be saved.
00:19:19
Rob
ah For us, similarly, Jesus was lifted up. And all we have to do is look look to him and we will be saved. But in the same way, um i think what we see here is that in the same way that God lifted his hand off of Israel,
00:19:41
Rob
what What Paul is really praying is that God would lift his hand of protection off of the believer so that their sin could be realized so that they could repel.
00:19:49
brandon g b
Yeah.
00:19:54
brandon g b
Yeah. It's kind of like, you know, some lessons you can only learn when you're flat on your face. You know, um you know, sin is harmful.
00:20:02
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:20:07
brandon g b
It's destructive. But, you know, God, he speaks very clearly about that in his word. People around you can speak very clearly to you that it's harmful and destructive.
00:20:19
brandon g b
But if those means of instruction don't keep you from doing it, then God's means of discipline is to let you do it so that you get so hurt from doing it that you'll come back to him, hopefully.
00:20:33
brandon g b
I kind of look at it like this.
00:20:33
Rob
yeah
00:20:34
brandon g b
So as our listeners know, my wife and I are foster parents and our first foster placement, who's no longer with us, was, well, he's not like, you know, um't rest in peace, like he's just not living here anymore.
00:20:47
Christian McKenzie
i
00:20:48
brandon g b
No longer with us.
00:20:48
Rob
you
00:20:49
brandon g b
Not the right choice there of terms.
00:20:50
Christian McKenzie
in the arms of an angel.
00:20:52
brandon g b
Yeah, right, right, right. So that was beautiful, by the way. But anyway, um so he wasn't really a good listener at times. And children tend to be that that way. I tend to be that way.
00:21:05
brandon g b
um And he likes to play with a machete. And I'm like, hey, buddy, that's not a toy.
00:21:08
Christian McKenzie
Oh, I...
00:21:12
brandon g b
You know, if you want to go cut some weeds or something or, you know, forge a trail, you go ahead. But you need to put it, you need to put it away. And I would find him often getting it out of the garage and playing with it in the yard like he was some kind of samurai or something.
00:21:25
brandon g b
And I just thought, you know, I'm going to let him learn this lesson on his own because he ain't listening to me. It was like a million times I told him to leave it alone. And he learned his lesson because he threw it up in the air one time and tried to catch it by the blade.
00:21:41
brandon g b
And he came in bleeding.
00:21:44
Christian McKenzie
but
00:21:44
brandon g b
And, yeah, so –
00:21:47
Christian McKenzie
You should laugh at that.
00:21:49
brandon g b
So, yeah, not not a great um way to catch a machete.
00:21:51
Christian McKenzie
good
00:21:55
brandon g b
But anyway, you yeah,
00:21:55
Christian McKenzie
yeah I played with the machete a lot, too.
00:22:00
brandon g b
the good thing is it was pretty dull, so it didn't hurt him too bad.
00:22:02
Christian McKenzie
yes
00:22:04
brandon g b
But um the funny the funny redemption of that story is after that, the machete came up missing.
00:22:04
Christian McKenzie
Right. Oh,
00:22:11
brandon g b
I think he got rid of it. So, yeah.
00:22:13
Christian McKenzie
wow. He's no, I don't. It's too much temptation.
00:22:17
Rob
Thank you.
00:22:17
Christian McKenzie
i need to keep that
00:22:18
brandon g b
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So and just so you know, the foster agency was aware of the machete situation.
00:22:27
Christian McKenzie
good
00:22:27
brandon g b
So just so I don't get flagged. so
00:22:33
Christian McKenzie
What is this guy doing? We're giving them kids and he's giving them machetes. Yeah.
00:22:38
brandon g b
Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:39
Christian McKenzie
And this was, to clarify, this wasn't a little kid.
00:22:40
brandon g b
Exactly.
00:22:43
Christian McKenzie
This is a teenager. i used to run around when I was like nine years old with a machete.
00:22:44
brandon g b
Yeah.
00:22:49
Christian McKenzie
And ah yeah, I tried to catch it by the ah blade too a couple times though.
00:22:50
brandon g b
Yeah, it wasn't like a four-year-old.
00:22:52
Rob
Yeah.
00:22:56
Christian McKenzie
So
00:22:56
brandon g b
Yeah, yeah, that infant just didn't learn. Yeah.
00:23:00
Christian McKenzie
it's like, Okay, oh I got a way that I can go home now and, you know, no, Katie, we got teach this boy a lesson.
00:23:00
brandon g b
yeah
00:23:06
brandon g b
Oh, man.
00:23:07
Christian McKenzie
He's two years old. He can throw that machete.
00:23:08
brandon g b
Oh, I'm sweating.
00:23:10
Christian McKenzie
Brandon said so.
00:23:13
brandon g b
Goodness gracious. Anyway, I didn't intend for that to be that funny. But...
00:23:19
Christian McKenzie
Well, got some kids, so we we find that hilarious.
00:23:23
brandon g b
Yeah. Well, we've all been teenage boys living in a state of danger. But anyway, so the point being, spent too much time on that.
00:23:29
Christian McKenzie
Hmm.
00:23:34
brandon g b
Some lessons, you just have learn hard way.
00:23:36
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:23:36
brandon g b
Tough love.
00:23:37
Christian McKenzie
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:23:38
brandon g b
um And you'll think about Jonah too. you know that's That's kind of an ah instance of tough love as well. Like he let him run as far as he could run. you know And it just got worse and worse and worse.
00:23:49
Christian McKenzie
yeah
00:23:50
brandon g b
you know It was a storm at sea. Then he was at the bottom of the sea and you know he like halfway fulfilled his duty, just stepping in the door of Nineveh pretty much.
00:24:01
brandon g b
And then he went out on the hill to mope and God made it hot. So all to teach Jonah a lesson. And I think we should be grateful for the severity of God's discipline because, I mean, he would be perfectly justified in just letting us, you know, plunge headlong into our sin without disciplining us because,
00:24:09
Rob
you
00:24:21
brandon g b
You know, we deserve whatever punishment's coming to us. But as we know, guys, you know, God disciplines those he loves. And it's the church's job to discipline church members that we claim to love.
00:24:34
brandon g b
It's very loving to do this. um But one thing we should talk about probably is, is this like the first thing you need to do when somebody's in unrepentant sin?
Steps and Outcomes of Church Discipline
00:24:44
brandon g b
what's what What should we do? What order should we follow?
00:24:48
brandon g b
Where does this appear in the order of church discipline?
00:24:51
Christian McKenzie
ah Well, I mean, if you go look at what what a Jesus talks about in Matthew 18, you see kind of an order of how things go it doesn't come before the church until the very, very end.
00:25:06
Christian McKenzie
First you go one-on-one, then you go with a few, and then you bring it before the church.
00:25:06
brandon g b
yeah
00:25:16
Christian McKenzie
And then if it keeps going, that's when this step, this is the the final, final step. And that's kind of the order of it, I think.
00:25:30
brandon g b
I just wanted to be sure we clarified that because um somebody perhaps unfamiliar with the scripture, um, or somebody who wants to read first Corinthians before they read Matthew might think, Oh man, this, so this is what I should do when, you know, sister Betty is caught lying in the church or when brother Larry or whoever is complaining about the church services or whatever.
00:25:44
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:25:59
brandon g b
Um, no, you don't hand them over to Satan immediately. There's a, gracious process God has ordained in his word where it's private confrontation. What?
00:26:09
Christian McKenzie
yeah
00:26:10
brandon g b
Was Larry a bad choice of name? You guys are laughing.
00:26:14
Christian McKenzie
No, i I'm still thinking about the
00:26:18
brandon g b
um Okay. I know. And machete can be misunderstood. I was thinking about this too. Like, it's not like a katana or anything. It's like, it's not like one of those, you know, that like,
00:26:32
Christian McKenzie
It's just a sharp, pointy object like a katana, but not a katana.
00:26:35
brandon g b
Yeah, yeah. it's
00:26:37
Rob
with sharpened blade.
00:26:40
Christian McKenzie
yeah
00:26:40
brandon g b
To save my name and reputation, it's Fisker's brand. So it's dull, it's no good. Well, I'll
00:26:46
Rob
but the
00:26:47
Christian McKenzie
Well, now we're going to get sued by that company. So...
00:26:51
brandon g b
what mr well i'll tell you what, ain't going to find no evidence on me, boy, because it's it's been gotten rid of. don't know what happened to it.
00:26:58
Christian McKenzie
with evidence now.
00:27:00
Rob
but
00:27:00
Christian McKenzie
Good night. We're digging a hole.
00:27:02
brandon g b
I promise I didn't get rid of it. I should have got rid of it begin with now i think about it. But anyway.
00:27:08
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:27:08
Rob
You
00:27:08
Christian McKenzie
Yeah. Oh, man. Anyway.
00:27:12
brandon g b
So anyway, yes, there there is a gracious process, as you outlined, for church discipline.
00:27:13
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:27:19
brandon g b
Confront the person privately and graciously. Don't air their business.
00:27:24
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:27:24
brandon g b
Many people will repent when you do that. They'll be like, you know, i had a blind spot. You're right. I'm glad you brought this to my attention. ah Some people need a little more counsel, a little more help. So that's why Jesus says, then you bring two or three witnesses with you. That is, just bring a group of concerned Christians and in love for this person that's caught in a transgression, you try to restore them in a spirit of gentleness, as Paul said in Galatians 6.
00:27:50
brandon g b
And if that doesn't work, and a lot of times that's usually all it takes, but if that doesn't work, they there's something wrong with their heart.
00:27:58
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:27:58
brandon g b
you know They're showing a spirit of unrepentance.
00:28:02
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:28:02
brandon g b
And that's when Jesus says, treat him as a tax collector and Gentile because they're not acting like a true believer.
00:28:06
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:28:09
brandon g b
And I think that is in harmony with what Paul is saying here, where he's like, at this point, you know this guy's sin is so serious. He's sleeping with his father's wife, hand him over to Satan. And it's for his own good.
00:28:21
brandon g b
You know, he said in verse five, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. So.
00:28:27
Christian McKenzie
yeah And I think it's also important to understand the way that, well, not necessarily the way, but the reason that we do it.
00:28:39
Christian McKenzie
the The reason is for restoration, but if we're doing it, it has to be in love, not not in anger.
00:28:46
brandon g b
Yeah.
00:28:48
Christian McKenzie
and And I think sometimes we like to get everyone gathered up with their pitchforks and
00:28:58
brandon g b
There were Shaddies.
00:28:58
Christian McKenzie
torches and and the machetes, even the dull ones. And they they like to go on the attack as soon as someone messes up.
00:29:09
Christian McKenzie
And they do it not out of love, but out of anger. And we really have to search our hearts before we even start doing this process.
00:29:20
brandon g b
Mm-hmm.
00:29:21
Christian McKenzie
Before we go to someone one-on-one, the prayer should be, why am I doing it? am Am I doing it because my feelings are hurt and I'm going to go and and just rage against them and I'm going to show them how how bad it is to come against me? I'm going to show him my wrath. Well, you know, that's what James warns us against because the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.
00:29:47
Christian McKenzie
So when we go into these conversations, it has to be founded in love. not founded in vengeance or wrath.
00:30:01
Christian McKenzie
If it's founded in vengeance or wrath, you might as well be ready for this to happen to yourself eventually.
00:30:09
brandon g b
Yeah.
00:30:10
Christian McKenzie
So...
00:30:12
brandon g b
Rob, what do you think? We've been glossing over you lately.
00:30:15
Rob
um I think another important distinction is what it what type of sin we're talking about, um what what repentance means, um and
00:30:27
brandon g b
Yes.
00:30:35
Rob
the the fact that that can be a process um that takes a long time. And so church discipline can be going on in private or with ah a few church leaders and an individual for a long period of time where the person is actively repenting and and seeking restoration, even though they're struggling with something um and did not get to this point.
00:31:04
Rob
Right. And so.
00:31:06
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:31:06
Rob
Just because you're you're struggling with a sin doesn't mean um and that you keep doing over and over and again. Doesn't mean that you're going to be delivered to Satan as long as you're actively trying to repent and working through that with a church leader ah who is leading and guiding in that.
00:31:28
Rob
But one thing i I want to talk about is the sin In particular, it's it's not that he had sexual relations with his father's wife.
00:31:42
Rob
It's that the word, the tense of the word, is that he has had and is continuing to have sexual relations.
00:31:50
brandon g b
Hmm.
00:31:52
Rob
And so it's an ongoing relationship that is
00:31:54
brandon g b
That's a good point.
00:31:56
Rob
that is continuing. And then not only that, but the idea here is that there is pride in that relationship, whether it's pride from the individual or even the church, ah they're they're boasting in sin.
00:32:05
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:32:13
Rob
um And so what Paul is saying is that not only is there sin, not only is there's no repentance, but there's a boast. There is pride.
00:32:24
Rob
So sin compounding on each other um that is happening that is leading people astray. um And so just a few things. The sin isn't something that was done once.
00:32:39
Rob
It's happening over and over and over again.
00:32:41
brandon g b
It's true.
00:32:42
Christian McKenzie
Mm-hmm.
00:32:43
Rob
Another thing is there's no intent to stop or no desire to stop because But there is a pride in I am going to keep doing this no matter what you say, no matter what scripture says, no matter what God says, I'm going to keep doing this.
00:33:01
Rob
ah And so we all struggle with sin. Even your pastor struggles with sin. um What we do is when the Holy Spirit reveals to us that we have sinned, then we repent.
00:33:10
brandon g b
true
00:33:18
Rob
We turn the other way. We turn towards Christ. um and we move forward. oh But if we're going to keep walking in it, something has to be done.
00:33:25
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:33:29
Rob
And so um just some more clarifications on the how this process works out. um It's not that this man slipped up once. It's big slip up if it happens happens once, right?
00:33:44
Rob
But it's not it's not even that.
00:33:45
Christian McKenzie
yeah
00:33:45
brandon g b
Yeah, for sure.
00:33:48
Rob
It's that it's continuing to happen with intent. for it to continue to happen.
00:33:54
Christian McKenzie
Yeah. Well, and and there's two people that are, you know, two groups trying to be saved here. oh you're You're trying to bring this unrepentant person ah either to a realization in their faith that that is not something that represents Christ or a realization that they have no faith and need to repent and turn to Christ.
00:34:15
Christian McKenzie
But you then you have the church in general, too. ah Because that that chapter continues on, little leaven leavens the whole lump. And that's why you're not supposed to associate with the sexually immoral.
00:34:30
Christian McKenzie
And Paul's saying, and if you allow this, if you turn a blind eye to this, here's what happens. It becomes normal.
00:34:41
Christian McKenzie
You just, it won't be long until you're like, oh yeah, we know he shouldn't do that. Well, it's not actually that bad, is it? Well, you know, my father's wife's starting to look a little pretty over there, and then a little living, living's the whole lump.
00:35:00
Christian McKenzie
And so you got to cut it out before it gets to you.
00:35:05
brandon g b
Yeah, that's good point.
00:35:05
Rob
And there are no examples of churches like that in our world today, are there?
00:35:11
Christian McKenzie
Well, I don't know. We got a big world. ah yeah
00:35:15
Rob
Yeah.
00:35:16
brandon g b
Oh, surely. Yeah. We're far removed.
00:35:17
Christian McKenzie
yeah well there's there's There's a lot of churches. I'm sure there's a her a couple of these situations arisen somewhere. so but I haven't personally seen this before.
00:35:29
brandon g b
Yeah.
00:35:34
Christian McKenzie
I've seen some crazy things. I'm like, what in the world? This is real. I haven't seen this one yet, but ah I'll let you know when I run across it, I guess. so
00:35:48
brandon g b
Yeah, that'd be a what in tarnation moment for sure.
00:35:51
Christian McKenzie
Yeah, well and I'm hoping that we're talking about Stepmother here, but you know I don't know which one we're talking about, honestly.
00:35:52
brandon g b
um
00:36:02
brandon g b
Nothing would make it good.
00:36:02
Rob
I think Ray Stevens wrote a song about this, didn't he?
00:36:03
brandon g b
That's for sure.
00:36:04
Christian McKenzie
Yeah, neither one.
00:36:04
brandon g b
Who
00:36:05
Christian McKenzie
It's good. It's not good.
00:36:10
brandon g b
Who did?
00:36:10
Rob
I'm my own grandpa, Ray Stevens.
00:36:11
Christian McKenzie
I wouldn't doubt it. I'm old grandpa.
00:36:18
brandon g b
but well There was a kid's show called Uncle Grandpa for a while. What was that about? How does somebody become your uncle and your grandpa?
00:36:26
Christian McKenzie
Oh, man. Oh, my goodness.
00:36:29
brandon g b
That show was psychedelic.
00:36:32
Christian McKenzie
So...
00:36:33
brandon g b
Good morning. That's what he'd say.
00:36:36
Christian McKenzie
hey
00:36:36
brandon g b
That show's crazy. Anyway, fellas. I think we've covered a lot of ground here.
00:36:45
Christian McKenzie
Oh my we all really got to work on.
00:36:45
brandon g b
And I've laughed so much that... ah My forehead is shining, sweaty.
00:36:52
Christian McKenzie
We got these shiny foreheads.
00:36:55
brandon g b
I know, man. Mine's fixed to be real shiny by September. If the Rogaine doesn't take and doesn't look like it's taken, it looks like the, my hairline's excommunicating Rogaine.
00:37:06
Christian McKenzie
yeah You delivered that hairline unto Satan.
00:37:07
brandon g b
Uh, yeah, man.
00:37:10
Rob
Thank you.
00:37:10
brandon g b
Oh, it's already being destroyed. So, um,
00:37:13
Christian McKenzie
Mm-hmm.
00:37:15
brandon g b
Let's see. Anything else to cover here? So just ah just a summary. So handing somebody over Satan, it's biblical. It's not your first line of defense, though, when somebody in the church is living in unrepentant sin.
00:37:31
brandon g b
There is a gracious process outlined in Scripture that you can see in Matthew 18. And what we've been stressing through this episode is that this letting a person hit rock bottom sort of church discipline is not to punish them.
00:37:47
brandon g b
It's not to destroy them.
00:37:47
Rob
Thank you.
00:37:50
brandon g b
It is for their restoration. You know, you're hoping that they'll get sick and tired of the consequences of sin and then repent. That again is what Paul is getting at when he says, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
00:37:59
Christian McKenzie
yeah
00:38:06
brandon g b
He's hoping this person who seems to be probably an unbeliever, will eventually come to know Christ um through repentance and faith.
00:38:13
Christian McKenzie
Mm-hmm.
00:38:14
brandon g b
um And speaking of restoration, I know you guys know about this, but it is believed that in 2 Corinthians 2, the person described in verses 5 through 11, it's believed that that's the same person, but Paul's tone is totally different there.
00:38:36
brandon g b
It says, For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by so excessive sorrow.
00:38:41
Rob
you
00:38:47
brandon g b
So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. um Now that may be talking about somebody else, um but if it is talking about him, evidently, tough love was the right way to go, because this man understood the death of his sin, and it led to god godly sorrow, and
00:39:00
Christian McKenzie
Yeah. Let a godly song.
00:39:06
brandon g b
Paul's basically saying, look, he's he's repented. It's genuine. No need to bring this back up. No need to continue punishing him. Now what you need to do is give him a Christian hug.
00:39:18
brandon g b
you know Embrace him in Christian charity.
00:39:18
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:39:21
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:39:22
brandon g b
um Now, even if it's not talking about him, it is talking about somebody who was previously disciplined by the church who turned around.
00:39:31
Christian McKenzie
yeah
00:39:31
brandon g b
And we could probably be here you know all day long talking about people who have these restoration stories where, you know, many years down the line, they were thankful that their brothers and sisters in Christ cared enough about them to confront them when they were in unrepentance.
00:39:49
brandon g b
Because, you know, the reality is we all love sin.
00:39:50
Christian McKenzie
yeah
00:39:53
brandon g b
It's in our spiritual DNA. And sometimes we have a blind spot and we don't realize how harmful it is to our soul and our testimony.
00:39:58
Rob
you
00:40:00
brandon g b
And we need a wake up call for concern and loving brother or sister.
00:40:02
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:40:06
Christian McKenzie
And I think one last thing to add that this fellow talked about, the scripture, it's not represented in scripture here, but it's represented throughout scripture is the way that we pray for people too.
00:40:18
Christian McKenzie
that There's been a big big thing about, you know, like praying for blessings, praying for goodness and things like that.
00:40:26
brandon g b
Mm-hmm.
00:40:27
Christian McKenzie
But when we pray for someone to find blessings within their sin, we're not doing them a favor. And I think we can look at David, for example, the enemies that came against David, you know, he he would pray for them to have a tough time, you know, crush my enemies, God.
00:40:47
Christian McKenzie
And it wasn't in the sense I think of, of hatred, but that they were, they were literally pitting themselves against the will of God and that David really wanted to see ah change there. But if they couldn't God crush them, God, God make, make it miserable for them to go against your will.
00:41:12
Christian McKenzie
Uh, and therein we see the grace as well. And so, you know i have a prayer and someone someone asked me about it one time. I pray often.
00:41:22
Rob
you
00:41:23
Christian McKenzie
I pray, Father, if there's one here that doesn't know you, convict them of their sin so that they know that they need your son, Jesus. And that's what we want people that are living in sin to to realize is that it is wrong.
00:41:44
Christian McKenzie
that it is against the will of God and that they need Jesus. But we we definitely don't want them to have peace within sin and get confused that it's okay to be there.
00:42:00
Christian McKenzie
so
00:42:01
brandon g b
Really good thoughts. You got something add, Rob?
00:42:06
Rob
Yeah, I just, um I think two main things both already said, but um restoration, that's what this is all about.
00:42:17
Rob
um God is in the restoration business. um He wants us to be in a love relationship with him. And if we are stuck in sin that is unrepentant,
00:42:31
Rob
It hinders our relationship with him um and prevents other people from knowing him. um Another thing that i think that is important um is so a church that does not practice church discipline is not only in danger of not being obedient to scripture, being obedient to God,
00:42:39
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:43:00
Rob
ah but is in danger of becoming that very spear of influence that Satan has in general.
00:43:08
brandon g b
Yeah.
00:43:08
Rob
um There are even denominations that we could mention. i won't mention them just for sake of time and just calling people out.
00:43:19
Rob
But there denominations.
00:43:20
Christian McKenzie
call a man.
00:43:20
brandon g b
Yeah. There's been enough controversy today.
00:43:23
Rob
You're right. um There whole denominations that have
00:43:25
Christian McKenzie
I need to find my machete.
00:43:30
Rob
centered themselves not around Christ, but on loving and pride for ah community that prides itself in sin.
00:43:43
Rob
oh And understand that
00:43:43
Christian McKenzie
Oh, Episcopal.
00:43:43
brandon g b
right
00:43:49
Rob
we have to understand that it's for the good of the church as well as the individual, as well as the lost.
00:44:00
Rob
If we're not doing our best to follow Jesus in repentance, we're never going to lead people to Christ. So that hurts the unbeliever.
00:44:09
Christian McKenzie
Mm-hmm.
00:44:11
Rob
If we are living in unrepentance, it's going to hurt our relationship with God. ah And if our church is not practicing church discipline.
00:44:23
Rob
We put ourselves in danger um of becoming the very influence of Satan itself. and And so we do church discipline out of love for God, ourselves, and the lost.
00:44:34
Christian McKenzie
here
00:44:42
Rob
ah That's all I got.
Closing Prayer and Reflections
00:44:45
brandon g b
Yeah, that's a very good thing to add. And think the seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation are clarifying in that regard where Jesus talks to at least two churches that are refusing to do church discipline and implement what Paul commanded.
00:45:03
brandon g b
And, I mean, Jesus starts out one of the letters by saying, i will war against you with the words of my mouth.
00:45:12
brandon g b
I mean, you do not want... the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to come against you with a sword.
00:45:19
Rob
I'm sorry.
00:45:20
brandon g b
And he's basically saying, say, Hey, I'd rather be cut up by my machete, frankly.
00:45:20
Christian McKenzie
Or a Mercedes.
00:45:23
Rob
so
00:45:28
brandon g b
um But it's, it's such a, how's this keep coming back to the conversation, man?
00:45:34
Christian McKenzie
I can't get it out of my head.
00:45:35
brandon g b
Oh my goodness. We didn't even pre-plan this either. um
00:45:40
Christian McKenzie
Oh.
00:45:41
brandon g b
Yeah. I would prefer the machete myself. um But yeah, I mean, kind of what Robbie was getting at, you're you're in danger of not even being a church. You're just, you know, you're in danger of just becoming a social club that has the title Christian if you don't practice church discipline.
00:45:57
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:45:58
Rob
Yeah.
00:45:59
brandon g b
It is fundamental. It is essential. I know it's not comfortable. um It's not comfortable be on the giving or receiving end of it, you know? We don't like to confront people, and we certainly don't like to be confronted either, but It's part of grace. It's part of God's design for the purity of his church.
00:46:17
brandon g b
And he'll do what he has to do to preserve the purity of his church if we won't have a part in it. I think we see that in the book of Acts where Ananias and Sapphira, the first white liars in the book of Acts, they lie about their offering and God purifies his church then and there by slaying them both.
00:46:40
brandon g b
And, you know, we can hopefully prevent some of that if ah if we exercise church discipline. But there are those who will not submit to it, though.
00:46:52
brandon g b
And for those who won't, the only solution is to hand them over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh. Let them go down that dark road until they come back yearning for the light.
00:47:03
Christian McKenzie
Yeah.
00:47:04
brandon g b
It's tough love, but it's love still.
00:47:06
Christian McKenzie
Well, and Paul practiced this too. He wasn't just telling the church of Corinth to do this. he He told Timothy that he did that. What were those? ah It was Alexander Hymenaeus, was it?
00:47:19
brandon g b
Yeah, in 1 Timothy, 120. Yeah.
00:47:22
Christian McKenzie
Yeah. Yeah. Where, ah you know, they were shipwrecked faith, you know, had a shipwrecked faith. but I think it was called. And and he delivered them.
00:47:31
brandon g b
yeah
00:47:34
Christian McKenzie
unto Satan. And it's it sounds against the world's idea of love, but I think that's where we have to make the difference. We're not here to share the love of the world.
00:47:49
Christian McKenzie
We're here to share the love of God. And let me tell you, the love of God, ah the very first moment I experienced it was actually a painful moment because what what I realized in that moment was how awful I was that very first moment as I realized that I was a sinner separated from God and that i deserved a place called hell that hurt that hurt more than anything but the moment after that as I was putting my faith in him and I realized that he was cleaning me up and that he was putting me on my feet
00:48:33
Christian McKenzie
And that he was calling me his beloved son.
00:48:38
Christian McKenzie
That, that was the most awesome feeling I ever had. Sometimes the love of God hurts a little bit, but it's always to lead to that best part of it, that you're standing on your feet and you're realizing that you're walking in his righteousness and in his love.
00:48:46
brandon g b
Yeah. Absolutely.
00:48:58
brandon g b
Absolutely.
00:49:00
Rob
I'm sure.
00:49:00
brandon g b
All right. Well, Rob, anything before we wrap up?
00:49:07
Rob
I'm good.
00:49:07
brandon g b
All right. Well, it's been a good episode. This has been very enlightening and we pray and hope that it has been Likewise, enlightening to all of our listeners, we thank God for all of you, those who tune into the Faith 168 podcast. We pray you've been blessed, that you've learned something from the scripture that can enable you to love God and love your neighbor more as well.
00:49:29
Christian McKenzie
Thank you.
00:49:29
brandon g b
And we will go ahead and wrap things up in a word of prayer. And Brother Rob, why don't you pray to close out our episode?
00:49:38
Rob
Absolutely. like Father, thank you so much for just this opportunity to gather together to to have fun and to laugh, but also to ah to consider the truths of your word.
00:49:52
Rob
Father, um we we know that you are a gracious and loving God, but you're also a God of of justice. And we know that when it comes to our sin, you paid the ultimate price.
00:50:03
Christian McKenzie
Yes.
00:50:08
Rob
um and And we should not take sin lightly. Sin leads to death. That's relational death, physical death, spiritual death. um And the last thing we want to do is for our churches to to be the spears of influence for Satan. So, Father, we just pray that um that you help us to understand these truths, that ah church discipline is a process.
00:50:35
Rob
It doesn't start with excommunication, but it it does ah ultimately lead there if there is unrepentance. Father, help us to understand that. Help us to apply that to our churches. And if, if Father, if there's ever a time that um the that we need that discipline, Father, i just pray that you would give us the the strength and courage to repent, turn back to you.
00:50:59
Rob
And Father, we just thank you once again for another podcast we get to to to spend time on your word. Father, lead, guide, and direct us. It's in Jesus' name we pray.
00:51:11
Rob
Amen.
00:51:13
brandon g b
Amen.
00:51:13
Christian McKenzie
Amen.
00:51:16
Christian McKenzie
oh watch up for