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Could robot pets ever replace the real thing?
244 Plays5 months ago
Broadcaster and journalist Kate Quilton speaks to entrepreneur and CEO of Ageless Innovation Ted Fischer and animal behaviour specialist Dr Leanne Proops, Associate Professor in Animal Behaviour and Welfare at the University of Portsmouth, about the role of robot pets and what it could mean for animals in future. Ted shares how robot pets can transform the lives of older people experiencing isolation and loneliness, and whether others could benefit from them too. Dr Proops discusses her research into how children respond to robot pets and their potential use in therapy, whether they could ever replace real animals and whether they might even one day become sentient like the real thing.
The Animal Futures podcast is part of the RSPCA Animal Futures Project which explores five future scenarios of what the world could be like for animals in 2050. People listening between 5 and 21 February or 17 March to 6 April 2025 can join The Big Conversation. After that, you can find out more by playing the interactive Animal Futures game.
Host: Kate Quilton
Guests: Ted Fischer and Dr Leanne Proops
Produced by: Mark Adams, Chris O'Brien, Emily Prideaux and Jo Toscano
Animal Futures Project: https://www.rspca.org.uk/whatwedo/latest/animalfutures
Animal Futures Game: https://www.rspca.org.uk/webContent/animalfutures/
Animal Futures: The Big Conversation: http://rspca.org.uk/bigconversation
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Transcript
Introduction to Robot Pets
00:00:00
Speaker
ah RSPCA presents Animal Futures hosted by Kate Quilton. Episode one. Could robot pets ever replace the real thing? Welcome to the very first episode of RSPCA Animal Features. I'm journalist and broadcaster Kate Quilton, and today we're talking robot pets. They're being increasingly used in settings like care homes with great results. But could they ever replace the real pets that we love so much? I spoke to Ted Fisher, co-founder and CEO of Ageless Innovation. His robot pets are helping tackle loneliness and even helping people with dementia.
00:00:43
Speaker
So Ted, robot pets. Tell me more. Why robot pets? Well, ah thank you for having me. So why Robot Pets? um we We started this brand, the Joy For All brand, about 10 years ago at Hasbro, the world's largest you know toy company. I was brought in to think about ways that Hasbro could leverage their assets in new markets and new channels. We chose health and wellness as sort of the the the larger
Joy For All Brand and Its Mission
00:01:09
Speaker
umbrella. And within that, um we we found some insights that a toy that was 20-something years ago intended for four to eight-year-old girls
00:01:17
Speaker
um was being bought by mom, not for their daughter, but about 20% of the time being bought for an aging loved one. um And that insight lead that led us to sort of really dig in. And we found two key insights. And and one was ah when we we spoke to older adults, there was this incredible need for interactive companionship. It wasn't as discussed as it is today after the pandemic, but pre-pandemic, there was already an epidemic of loneliness and isolation that was gripping our older adult population. population And the other insight was that no matter how many older adults we spoke to, there was one answer. They wanted more fun, joy, and play in their life. And so um we we did concept testing with all sorts of different, you know, whether it be a tablet device or arts and crafts, and ah far and away the this idea of an interactive companion pet rose to the top. And so
00:02:08
Speaker
In 2015, we launched the Joy For All brand as part of Hasbro. um And the companion pets are these really realistic, um you know interactive, it's just this idea of give and take. So you do something, you get something in return. So you pet it, or you talk to it, and it mows and barks, or it rolls over. And so that's why that's why robotic pets. Wow. So what do these robotic pets look like?
00:02:34
Speaker
I got to work with some amazing engineers and designers. and When we talked to older adults, they wanted realism. um It was one of the top things, as we said, so what does it need to do? what does it mean and They said, I want it to look like a cat. I want it to act like a cat. I want it to look like a dog. and so um our Our pets actually are fairly life-sized, our cats look like cats, our dogs look like dogs, we've got three different breeds of the cat, two different breeds of the dog, and then our walker squawker, which is a bird, we have two different ah breeds of those birds. And the detail level of of understanding the realism is, so if you have our walker squawker, our cardinal, um the sounds are actually
00:03:09
Speaker
cardinal sounds. they're not And then we have a bluebird, and they're bluebird sounds. And they sound different. They they make different you know chirps. and um And so it's that level of detail, like on the cat. Our cat has technology in it. So what we heard from older adults is, when cats purr, there's a tactile vibration that they're that they feel. And that was hugely meaningful to people who are cat owners. And so we created a technology called Viber Purr so that when our cat purrs, it actually has that tactile vibration. So if it's sitting in your lap, you not only hear the purr, but you feel the purr. And those type of realism details were, I think, you know, why today we've got, you know, almost 700,000 of these out around the world.
Realism in Robot Pet Design
00:03:49
Speaker
How did you settle on which breeds to make? Yeah, great question. I love that because people can get very specific about, you know, what's their favorite type of dog, favorite type of cat.
00:04:02
Speaker
yeah Yeah, so ah we you know we started with we we tried to go with the most popular, right? Because we yeah we were starting this thing out. We still had to sort of prove out the concept. So ah in the in the dog category, which the cat came out first in 2015, the dog was a year later. And for that entire year, we heard from that 50% of the population that a dog lover is like, when is the dog coming? you know And so people are very specific. And so with the cat, the most popular cat was the orange tabby cat.
00:04:29
Speaker
And so we created that orange tabby and then a silver with white mitts and then originally ah a creamy white cat And now we've also got a tuxedo cat ah And discontinued the creamy white cat because it would get too dirty pretty quickly and then so you you learn things even though people love it Yeah, so um because people treat like the real pet they interact with it and and so you want to make sure that you know you can maintain the hygiene and do all those things and it was harder with a white cat so um I guess the c coat isn't washable. You can't just unzip and throw it in the laundry. You can unzip it and throw it in, but there is a we've we've gone to the lengths of of having an infectious disease doctor do a protocol, a cleaning protocol that actually um passes every test that we need to need to in terms of infection control and cleaning. And so we do have a... It's a wipe and a you know spray and it's ah it it works and it you know and can sort of restore the cat back to... Um, anything you need to. And then, uh, as far as the pup, the golden retriever was the, uh, was the most popular. So that was the, the pup breed in the UK for sure. yeah viva Okay. Wow. And so you've, you've made what, 700,000 of these? Almost. Yeah. but There's, there's been, uh, over 600,000 pets adopted now in about 30 countries around the world.
00:05:52
Speaker
And what is your core demographic? so we ah So I had mentioned that we started the brand at Hasbro in 2015. We ran it there for almost four years. And then it was getting more difficult inside of Hasbro to focus only on older adults, which became our passion. And so we did a a friendly management spin-out. And myself and the team that really conceived of this and launched it, ah we left Hasbro, formed Ageless Innovation, and then acquired Joy For All.
00:06:21
Speaker
and And the reason that we did that is because we were so passionate about the older adult population and we knew that there was just this incredible need for more fun, joy and play and very few people focused on that. So in 2018, we spun out of Hasbro.
00:06:37
Speaker
um And you know we've been so our demographic is older adults and their families, and that's what we focus on. So we have the pets, and now we have games um that are really you know reimagined for older adults to be more inclusive and fun, intergenerational, and and those type of things. So that that's our focus. Can you tell me a little bit about the function? So how do these robots work?
00:07:01
Speaker
Yeah, so they're self-contained technology. And inside of these pets, there's actually quite a bit of technology. And we very rarely talk about it, because I'd rather kind of talk about the magic that happens when somebody... Well, tell me about the magic. I mean, what do they do? And tell me about when they interact with people.
00:07:20
Speaker
one One of the things that that I love about our product is the simplicity. um And so basically, you know, you read and I've watched it now thousands of times, yeah you know, you gift this or or give it to someone um and they immediately name it, you know, either an old pet name or something that that reminds them or how it looks, you know, rusty or so fluffy or whatever it is. And then it's just so that you don't have to read the instructions. Like most people understand how to interact with a pet. So as you start doing it,
00:07:49
Speaker
you know With the cat, yeah there's a few unique things. so Cats from you know all the research that we did never do what you want them to do when you want them to do it. They're they're on their own schedule. and so ah Despite the sensors and and motors and things that are inside, like just because you pet the bat back of the cat, you're not going to get the same response every time. so it's ah It's a random, we call it a random play pattern because that's what cats do.
00:08:14
Speaker
And so you know they roll over, and they preen, and they purr, and they meow. But um it's going to be on their schedule. So you know you could be petting it for 10 minutes and and want it to roll over, and it doesn't. You turn away, and then it rolls over. i mean it's just you know um And then the pup's a little more predictable. So it responds to sound, and it has this barkback technology where you talk to it. it kind of talks back in puppy barks to you in almost the same length as what you did and it has a subtle heartbeat for when you're resting and we were trying to we were trying to liken that to the vibro pro right that tactile sensation as you're sort of you know sitting there and sort of interacting so um there's there's a different and unique features and the walker squawker ah has two different modes one where you know it can be just held in your hand and you can play with it it'll chirp and coo and um and then once you put it on there's ah a perch that you put on ah a mobile device or a walker
00:09:04
Speaker
And as you move, it sings songs. And the more you walk, ah the more songs get unlocked. So we're trying to incentivize healthy, active movement. um But the real feature is as you stop and maybe walk you know move away from your walker, it gives you a little reminder so you're not forgetting your walker. Because what we know is that about eighty percent of falls that happen with older adults that have walkers fall because they forget it and so we've tried to create this really engaging you know companion but also something that's giving you some cues and reminders to not not get too far from your walker. And is there responsibility tied in like a Tamagotchi you know do you have to interact
00:09:46
Speaker
You know, when when it is someone's, they name it, they own it, um you know, they brush it, they interact with it, and there's this, um the that that piece of I'm caring for something has been really important. So we have about 15 published research papers, some, you know, published peer reviewed, validated on the impact of loneliness, isolation, dementia, Alzheimer's, depression.
00:10:10
Speaker
um And the positive impact that it's had and in all of it some of the underlying You know, I think power of what we do is that when it's your pup or your cat or your butt you, you know You feel a need to sort of care for it And so I wouldn't go as far as Tamagotchi, you know type of you know, it's if you just leave it in the corner It's not gonna wither away or anything, you know, but um it goes into a sleep mode if you stop interacting with it and and like the cat for instance, uh, responds to changes in light. So I have one in my office that every morning I come in, I flick the lights on, it gives me a little, yeah lets me know it's there at night. I flick the lights off, it gives me a little, and whether I play with or interact with it during the day or not, it doesn't matter that kind of happens. And, um, and so it just depends on your use pattern and how you want to interact with it. Oh my
A Personal Tale of Robot Pet Interaction
00:10:58
Speaker
goodness. Have you got a loss at home?
00:11:00
Speaker
I've got a couple of yeah, I mean, there's always there's always pets here. I've had, you know, there there have been times when I've had like 10 at home, and then I'll meet somebody who could really use it. So I give them away. So ah but yeah, they I mean, it's it's really interesting. So I'll tell you a funny story when I started this brand.
00:11:16
Speaker
um My grandmother who was in, she was going from assisted living to memory care and she was in her 90s and she actually was actually on our first packaging. So she was our, I used to call it a swimsuit model on the cover of our first box, you know. And so, but she was, as her she taught me so much because her secret to dealing with this loss of of memory and, you know, cognitive decline was laughter.
00:11:42
Speaker
So no matter what you said, she laughed. And so I used to joke that my grandma laughed at everything I say, usually before I say it. She didn't even care what was coming out of my mouth. She thought I was a great crazy grandson. I used to give her crazy gifts. And so as I watched her interact with our first versions of these pets, it just occurred to me that there's We were all pretty close by, right so within 10 miles of her community. But even if we visited every day, there were still 20 hours a day. she was ah you know She was by herself. I mean, we couldn't all be there for 20 hours a day. wait right So people go have meals with her and whatever. but so So having something that you know was was sort of interactive and
00:12:27
Speaker
As I you know started to bring the concepts home, I would sit on my you know my chair at night. I'd be petting this cat and my wife, who I've been married to for a long time. as nobody I've been allergic to cats my entire life. and so um and they She had cats when we were dating, and I used to sell this have to sit outside sometimes because I couldn't be in the house. I i had this cat in my lab. My wife's like, hey, you know I've seen you do a lot of different jobs. She goes, the cat salesman thing? I didn't see that coming. I didn't see that coming.
00:12:56
Speaker
you know is' that It's been a joke forever that ah you know that I started a company that makes cats and I was allergic to them my whole life. so And the good news about our cats, hypoergenic, there's none of that issues. And so we have you know we hear we see stories and reviews all the time about people that have been allergic and have always wanted to love a cat and couldn't because they couldn't get near it and now they own our cat and they're so happy. And so in your household, have you traded real pets entirely for robot pets?
00:13:22
Speaker
Yeah, so we we had dogs um for years ah until the kids were at a certain age where we were traveling so much for sports and all that stuff that just wasn't fair to you know leave the... So um we we haven't had live pets in the house probably for 15 years.
00:13:42
Speaker
um so yeah I guess I'm not sure we made the trade because I we i hadn't quite you know gotten to the point of of Joy For All and the and the pets yet, but we made more of a family decision that it wasn't fair to a pet to leave it behind all the time when we were traveling all over the country, ah going to lacrosse games and everything. Obviously, you've experienced both. What are the pros of a robot pet?
00:14:02
Speaker
yeah So, I mean, I think in the older adult population, certainly the pros are um and what we heard from
Companionship Benefits of Robot Pets
00:14:09
Speaker
older adults. It's not just our, you know, whats what we think. It's actually what we heard from them. And um is you know you get to a certain place in your life and whether it be health reasons, residential requirements, ah longevity issues, they're just people can't own a pet any longer or have to give up their pet.
00:14:28
Speaker
We just did a delivery at a V of Veterans Administration home a couple weeks ago in Rhode Island and we gave one of the vets an orange tabby cat and he said, oh my gosh, this looks just like Franklin who I had to give up to lou to move here. So in order for him to move into the VA, a they don't let they don't allow people to own pets, he had to give up his 15-year cat.
00:14:48
Speaker
and now we gave a one that look just like it and it was um it was a really heartwarming story but um yeah we we see it all the time that i think you know the benefit and we talked about a lot we used to have a tire line was you know no litter box just love and no vet bills just love so it's it's we're hoping to bring that pet interaction to people who. Desire it but can't have it in a lot in life anymore and take some of the.
00:15:15
Speaker
reasons why they can't have the live pets, you know, the care and feeding part of it out out of the equation so that they can just enjoy it and get sort of the the loving benefits. And what kind of bonds have you witnessed emerge between, you know, the owners and these robot pets? Yes, I can tell you i could tell you a lot of stories, but I'll give you just a couple of examples. So a story that we've heard now pretty, you know, numerous times ah are So for whatever reason, whether it could be music, it could be pets, it could be whatever, there's this you know thing that happens when the right thing hits. And so we've seen a number of instances where it's been given to somebody who's been nonverbal for maybe two years.
00:16:00
Speaker
So living in a community-based or care home setting hasn't spoken to their family, haven't spoken to the other residents. And yet and they get our cat and they're like, what a beautiful kitty. And like the room is stunned. I can't believe. so and and And it's not just our product that does that. right For some people, it's music. And you know there is no one thing for everyone. We know that. but we where We're blessed to hear that story a number of times where it's it's brought people to a different place than they've been you know maybe for a while. um and Whether that's for reminiscence or it's you know this the power of of pets, I can't explain it, but it's magic when you do see it. so That's part of the magic too. and then the The other story that if you had told me this when we started this brand in 2005, 15 that there would be people who these pets meant so much to that ah We get letters that tell us that you know So-and-so had this pet they went to hospice and they loved it so much that they you know when they passed They they buried them with the bed And I don't think I could have ever imagined that that our product would have that type of impact gosh, that's incredible, isn't it?
00:17:10
Speaker
Do you think it's kind of, you know, those kind of examples are fascinating, isn't it? It makes you think, wow, do we as a society undervalue play? Because for you as someone that's reintroduced it almost to these people in the winter of their lives, you know, they're they're leaning into it, aren't they?
00:17:31
Speaker
and Absolutely. and And I think that, you know, one of the biggest surprises as we went out in and we were just exploring early on is how Every single older adult we spoke to wanted more play, more fun, more joy in their life. And culturally and in society, you get to a certain age and people say, you're too old for that. you know and And honestly, it's one of the things we've been trying to dispel since we started the brand um is that the power of play has these amazing benefits that that no one really understands. I mean, simple things. so And I've spoken about this before, but I had a good friend who
00:18:09
Speaker
Uh, he used to visit his father every week. He would, you know, my friend would come back and he'd say, geez, he goes, my father asked me the same questions over and over every 30 seconds. So I'll answer it. And then, you know, how are the kids? And, you know, he said, yeah and so he said, you know, I, I.
00:18:25
Speaker
The other day, I just decided to turn it on its head. So he asked me how the kids are. And I said, well, you know, Ryan just get out of prison, you know, kind of thing. They totally made something up. And and his father reacted differently to that question. So the questions kept coming. So how are the kids? He just answered it differently every time. and It became like a game between them. And it made it, you know, it made them both laugh like it. And that's that's just simple play. Right. There's no there's no recipe there. It's just, you know,
00:18:52
Speaker
People think it's all the mundane and the difficulty of dealing with people as they get into this this part of their life. and And there's some pretty simple solutions. And we've found that you know bringing people together around games and making things intergenerationally fun and appropriate are so important. um And ah you know if I can tell one more quick story about that, when we were doing the research on this brand, there's a place within within Hasbro it's called the Fun Lab. And the Fun Lab is the greatest place in the world. So it's sort of a controlled environment where on a normal day,
00:19:27
Speaker
You know, one of the brands would bring their new concepts in and it'd be like a living room setting or a bedroom setting. And then they'd bring a bunch of kids in, they'd sit behind a glass wall and they'd watch it all happen and take notes and figure out what's easy to get, what needs more instruction, what's not working. um And so we brought a very different population into the Fun Lab one day.
00:19:47
Speaker
And the person who runs the fun lab, which by the way is a great job, ah she she said this was the best right bag she said yeah she said this this's the best day we've ever had. And I'm like, really? So we're sitting there watching older adults interacting with all these things. And there was like they were all happy, but there was this added joy in the room. And I talk about this actually a lot. um And I was trying to put my finger on it. We're sitting there. and What I realized is kids get in that room, they expect to play. So the expectation is you run in there's toys. That's what I do. The older adults were not only having fun, but they were so happy that someone was thinking about them in this way.
00:20:26
Speaker
that they are people who should have joy and fun and play in their life that so is the added level of joy was just this. These folks like someone's finally thinking about the things we actually want right more fun more joy. So so that was the epiphany of how we are we said we're on to something here and launch launch the brand but that was that was the day that the light bulb went off.
00:20:49
Speaker
Gosh, that's fascinating, isn't it? I think just for you to have acknowledged, actually, there's there's a real need for play, whatever age you are, whatever point you are in your life. And why is it, do you think these robot pets help people with dementia in particular?
Robot Pets in Dementia Care
00:21:11
Speaker
Yeah, it goes back to kind of what I said before. I think there's just this reminiscence piece. There's this familiarity piece. And we found, even with non-pet owners, non-pet lovers, that just having something that you know is interactive. And so we've seen situations where, you know in some of the studies that I talked about earlier, um you know an older adult who maybe has dementia, living in a care home, memory care home, and ah really has a difficult time with transitions or agitation. um And in some cases, the answer is medication, right psychotropic medications. um There have been studies of our pets where instead of that, they give the cat and people just joyfully kind of make the transition and don't get agitated. into it Don't try and take it away from them, is what we heard. But you know once once they have it, their demeanor changes.
00:22:05
Speaker
So as the world advances and we look into the crystal wall, what does AI mean for this space, for robot pets? Yeah, the that's the million dollar question, right? So we've been thinking a lot about it. So we've we've won a, in the US and National Science Foundation grant with ah Brown University and their humanity center robotics initiative to explore that. So we spent about five years doing some research trying to figure out, and this was before the you know the advent of you know like the chat GPTs of the world that was just, AI was ah defined a little differently than it is today where it's just so much more robust.
00:22:44
Speaker
And most recently we went through a rp which is the the big national organization here that represents older adults. They have an age tech ah collaborative accelerator. So we went through the accelerator program and did another ah segment on it, really exploring you know what does a connected device look like? What does an AI device look like? and And I won't sit here and tell you that we have the answer, but certainly I think um one of the unique differentiators I think we have, and the and the connected home is coming. It's already here in some cases, right? where um There's a lot of monitoring going on, whether it's through sensors or cameras and those type of things. I'm a big proponent of dignity and, you know, there's a fine line between, you know, if my grandmother were alive, what I would want, you know, ah for her and her life at what stage to be, what are we watching? What are we doing? so
00:23:35
Speaker
um I think almost all of those products that are part of that connected environment, if you will, are not for the older adult, right? They're there to monitor the older adult and and provide information maybe for somebody who cares, which I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm just saying, but our product is actually for the older adult. It's it's something they want to interact with. And so our challenge is to figure out with all of the developments in AI and technology, how can we take that and still maintain that
00:24:07
Speaker
Really fine balance of you know but not being invasive and being respectful and dignity um But what are the things that we can do with the device that they're happily interacting with um To provide some additional benefit right so whether that's you know user Functionality or data or information for people who care about you know their well-being How do we do that and so we're
AI Enhancements in Robot Pets
00:24:30
Speaker
I don't have the answer for you, but it we're definitely working on it and I mean, when you when you look at, I guess, the growth in recent years, can you see a world where most homes will have a robot pet in the future? I'm not advocating for this to be something for everyone. i just i read If we truly have a person-centered design, philosophy, and mentality at our company, we've never designed a product without older adult, without them.
00:24:55
Speaker
um we We go ask them what they want. We don't build it and they will come. and we iter like it's not It's a process. like we have We have care homes and nursing homes and and we visit them often. We bring things. They tell us what's right, what's wrong. We go back and tinker and we go back and say, did we get it right? and They say yes or no. and so you know i think that there's certain situations where the products that we make are really relevant and are helping ah helping people. And I think there's you know there's a lot of situations where you know you know you see the the pet in the family and the love of a dog. I'm not trying to replace that. right ah I'm trying to make sure that everybody has that opportunity at the time when they might need it, um as opposed to say, yeah, every home should have a robotic pet.
00:25:46
Speaker
I think anybody who needs one and wants one should be able to have one, so I think the option should be there. um But i I really believe that, you know, um I don't see a world where we're replacing pets. Pets are, you know, pet and y I've got one team member right now who's dealing with um his two big dogs and one of them is is in not in very good shape. and um I've watched how it's impacted her over the last few weeks and just, you know, it's part of the family and and it's ah it's something that's really you know meaningful to people and I'm not trying to replace that. I'm just trying to say, hey, what what the when when you get to a place where that's not an option, you know, is there something that can give you some type of similar joy?
00:26:29
Speaker
Brilliant. Full power to you, Ted. I mean, as the inventor, maker and seller of robot pets, that would have been a very easy question to say, Oh yeah, hell yeah. Everyone needs one of these in their lives, but I love how they're completely bespoke for the people that you make them for. And they're tailored for these older people that ultimately are in a position where a real life pet maybe isn't quite practical. You got it.
00:26:55
Speaker
Thank you so much for that Ted. I love how all of it is inspiration to play. We must p play war as people. I totally agree. Thanks so much for for having me. And we we really appreciate and respect the work of the ah RSPCA. ah And you know ah we we have some great collaborations here here in the United States. And anything we can do to you know improve the lives of older adults, whether it's through you know real pets or robotic pets or games and toys, ah let's make sure that they they have the ability to have fun, joy in playing their lives.
00:27:33
Speaker
Fantastic. Thank you so much, Tares. Thank you. Thanks for having me. What do you think? Could robot pets have a role to play? If this chat has sparked your interest, you can get involved in the biggest ever conversation about animal welfare, animal futures, the big conversation. This is your chance to have your say on the future you want to see for animals. Search the RSPCA website to find out more.
00:28:02
Speaker
Next, I spoke to Dr. Leanne Preeps, Associate Professor in Animal Behaviour and Welfare at the University of Portsmouth. She's been researching how children respond to robot pets and their use in therapy. Hi, Leanne. Thanks so much for having a chat with us. ah Pleasure to be here. Thanks.
00:28:22
Speaker
Now, can you tell me first, tell me how your journey began with robot pets? So my research is in animal behaviour and animal welfare, particularly with domestic animals. Horses and donkeys primarily actually, but also dogs,
Children's Engagement with Robot Pets vs. Real Dogs
00:28:39
Speaker
cats sometimes. So I'd done a little bit of research looking at the therapeutic potential of um horses, so equine therapy. My background is also psychology in general, so I'm interested in those sort of human-animal interactions. um But coming to robot pets, I really um have Olivia Barber to thank for that. So she's ah she was a former student of mine who who led some of these um studies. So she came to me as a master's student and she had a therapy pet.
00:29:08
Speaker
um and was really keen to look into sort of the roles of therapy pets. We initially did some research with um looking at children reading to dogs in school classrooms um and then we just really wanted to look initially at comparing dogs and trying to understand what it was about dogs that seemed to be ah beneficial to people so we wanted some kind of comparison Object entity that was as close to a dog as we could get without actually being alive because we we really wanted to understand If it's something really special about a living dog or whether other objects and other similar Entities if you like and could could have similar effects. So that's really where we started with this and tell me about your recent studies So where did you get to?
00:29:58
Speaker
So we have done a number of studies looking at so in particular children's responses to dogs and therapy pets. We have three studies across three different contexts really that we looked at. The first study we went into schools um and we provided children with the opportunity so this was 11 to 12 year olds with the opportunity to interact with a real therapy dog um or um a robot dog. or They had one session with a therapy dog and it was just a free play session. So we provided them with toys and balls and things that they could interact with the dog with.
00:30:36
Speaker
and And we just sort of let them lead the experience and recorded their behaviors. And then we also offered ah a similar session with a robotic biomimetic robot. So one that was designed to look like an animal, but actually this particular one is ah is a Miro-E that we used and it was so just a general animal-like creature. So it wasn't designed to look at particularly like one particular animal. So we let the and children just interact with those two entities on two separate sessions. And then we just asked them how much they enjoyed the experience, how they felt, of how their emotions, how they felt during the experience. And we also asked them their attitudes to to dogs and robots.
00:31:20
Speaker
in general. So we wanted to understand both how children interact um with these entities, but also how they felt about them and how it made them feel. um So that was our first study.
00:31:35
Speaker
um the second study we took a similar idea but we went into a Winchester Science Centre in the UK so it was a much more naturalistic environment that's very busy children were coming in and out and we set up um an area in the Science Centre where people had the or the children had the opportunity to come and meet a therapy dog the robot um animal and then we had a sort of very basic toy dog that would just walk around and bark when you pressed it and the children were just sort of um able to come and go choose which individual they wanted to meet, were but all three if they wanted to. And we just watched children's choices, how they interacted, and again, you know, what they thought about the experience. um And then the thought the third one was just an online study where we showed videos of dogs and and robots and robot toys. And again, asked the children, which one would you like to interact with? How much do you like them and what what they thought about them?
00:32:34
Speaker
and And what did you uncover? What were the results? um So it was really interesting actually. So in the the school study with the slightly the older children, they spent more time with the robot actually than um the the real dog in the sessions. um But they actually sort of um tended to prefer spending time with the dog.
00:32:57
Speaker
um So even though they spent more time in sort of exploring with with the the robot, um they still had that preference, but but they really enjoyed interacting with both. um And that was the same at the Science Centre. So children spent um bit more time with the with the dog actually or similar time sorry with the dog um and the robot at the science center um but but overall enjoyment was really high so we said the you know out of 10 how how much did you enjoy this experience um and so they reported really sort of positive emotions with both um so so overall in terms of behavior it was all very positive um but again interestingly when we looked at
00:33:42
Speaker
the exact behavior so we looked in a bit more detail at exactly what they were doing with the dogs and the robots and they spent more time stroking the dog and then they spent more time doing what we called investigative behaviors with the robot so kind of probing it and trying to understand how it was made or ah touching it in in ways that we didn't see them sort of interacting with the dog.
00:34:07
Speaker
um So we could tell that even though there's a similar amount of time interacting, they kind of knew the difference between the two and they were sort of exploring them and interacting with them in different ways. um And occasionally we saw, so when they were might poke the eye of the robot to try and see how the eye was opening and closing, but thankfully we didn't see any behaviours like that with the real dog. why do you think Why do you think the kids spent more time playing with the robot?
00:34:33
Speaker
Well, we we don't know. And so this is only a sort of guess, really. I think there are two reasons that I i've think might be possible. The first one might just be a novelty value. So um children are much more familiar with dogs than these kind of sort of high tech.
00:34:51
Speaker
robots, we have lots of cuddly toys. So it could just be that that it was a new object. So they were spending more time exploring that. um And I think research needs to to really look at long-term effects a bit more. I think that's something we don't understand very well at the moment.
00:35:08
Speaker
um and The other thing which was quite interesting that we found is we also um looked at the behaviour of the dog and of the robot. The biomimetic robot was often much more responsive to the child. so which would engage a bit more sometimes than the the dog. um So that could be part of it. And that's perhaps one of the potential benefits of robots is that if you train them to always be attentive to the to the human, it doesn't need to go off and sleep and it doesn't get bored. So um that could be part of the reason as well. um That's interesting, isn't it? So the robot was actually more responsive than the real dog.
00:35:53
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there'll be different dogs and different relationships, of course. and I think of my dog who will you know play fetch for hours and hours on end and not seem to get bored of it. But um but yeah, the the the robot obviously can be sort of programmed to do that as well.
00:36:08
Speaker
What do you think the benefits of robot pets could be now and in the future?
Therapeutic Applications of Robot Pets
00:36:14
Speaker
The most or the most obvious sort of or perhaps less controversial place that that robots have a role is in context where it's not appropriate for real dogs to be. I think it could be very stressful for for dogs to go into certain therapeutic environments. Sure, many dogs are quite resilient and enjoy meeting new people, but I think There is quite a lot of research now that that shows that even if the dog seems okay, it can often be quite a ah difficult and stressful experience. I think we can probably empathize with that. So I think that there is a real role for robot pets in places where
00:36:54
Speaker
either the welfare of the dog, it wouldn't be appropriate really to have dogs in that environment, or in in sort of pet context where people just can't keep pets. So if you haven't got the time, or you haven't you know got the funds, or um you're not perhaps someone who isn't just physically able to go for a walk, things like that, then then I think that's really where and robot pets can can play an important role. What kinds of settings are you thinking of?
00:37:24
Speaker
um Well, there's been some research, so in terms of therapy, um again, I probably say this again, we there's not a great deal of research out there, but a couple of contexts where it seems quite beneficial. um The first one is in um in an elderly sort of elderly homes and with people with dementia. There's been a number of studies that show that these robotic pets, so Paro the seal is one of them that has been used quite successfully in that context.
00:37:54
Speaker
um And there was a recent ah really nice, um really controlled and longer term study that was done um by researchers in in Plymouth and they again found that with people with dementia, they really benefited from having this robotic.
00:38:12
Speaker
pet um in the environment um and this might be these might these are sort of potentially challenging environments to have a dog you may not have the resources as well the staff would have to keep a real dog um and so there would be lots of of difficulties and it's probably um in that context it could well be more beneficial to use a robotic dog. I guess in terms of the context one thing I thought was particularly interesting about Their findings was that those people with more severe bent ah dementia use this robot dog more and and it actually not only did it reduce loneliness um and depression it actually reduced some very specific dementia symptoms like delusions which.
00:38:59
Speaker
Which I found really interesting because perhaps you might ah it it you might expect that um having a robotic pet or a real pet would reduce loneliness, but these sort of particular you delusions or particular symptoms that it actually seemed to reduce, I found really fascinating and something we need to understand a bit more about. There's also been some positive work with people with autism.
00:39:22
Speaker
Again, that might be a good context. Perhaps the the people are not able to look after animals or perhaps they prefer a robotic dog. they might Obviously, everybody's an individual, but it might there might be contexts where people find dogs challenging or scary or they're allergic to dogs. um and In that context, that the sort of the robotic pet could step in and provide a relationship where where a real dog couldn't h Have you got any concerns about replacing animals with technology? um Yes, it's a tricky one, isn't it? um I think overall,
00:40:06
Speaker
in terms of the robotic pets, I am not too concerned at the moment with where we are with this. um there There's lots of research to suggest that we are very able to distinguish between animate and inanimate objects and we know the difference between the two. um and so i don't think um I think there will be separate roles for them um in society. i think um
00:40:38
Speaker
There are many contexts, as I've said, where perhaps animals are not being kept in the best conditions. And so perhaps it's no bad thing if a few less pet dogs are in you know in society and they're being replaced if it means that there are less dogs being kept in you know poor environments. so you know We're very busy increasingly as a culture here in England. It's very hard for people to spend time with their dogs. There are less dogs working alongside us through our day. um and so
00:41:14
Speaker
it it's It's a difficult one, but I think um if robot pets are used in those contexts, then I think that might be ah no bad thing for the animals themselves as well. and What would you say to people that may be, i mean particularly with kids, when some people might feel like, oh, it's a bit sad, isn't it, these kids playing with a robot rather than a real animal? What do you think about that?
00:41:40
Speaker
I think, first of all, it was very clear in all of our research that the children tend to prefer the the real dog. So it's not that the children are, as far as we can work out, if you said, would you like a real dog for Christmas? Or and and and would you like a real dog at home? Or would you like a robotic pet? Our research suggests that they're not going to choose the robotic pet. and So first of all, I think that if there is a space for for you know real dogs, real pets in someone's in children's lives, I think they're still going to want to to do that. and And it's very clear from our research that there's a preference for the living dogs. So I think um that
00:42:28
Speaker
it's It's only sad if, it depends if you what you compare it to. So so it's not sad if you don't have the option of a dog and you therefore do have the option of a robot robotic pet, then perhaps if we look at it in that way and perhaps switch the way we're thinking that it's not like The comparison is not, do you have the real dog or the robot? It's it's it's nothing or the robot because if you can't have it, do you see what I mean? So I think it's just about o um the comparison that we make or or having a dog in an environment that is not ideal for it because the family doesn't have time for the dog, then the robot may be a preferable alternative.
00:43:12
Speaker
And so you see obviously the, I guess, the advantages to animal welfare potentially with this. Obviously robotic pets don't have any of the problems of having to feed it and look after it. um So if they are used in places where dogs shouldn't be used or other pets shouldn't be used, then I think that, you know, that is a benefit really. um and And if that means that people only people that really have the time and ah you know and the and the the financial security and those kinds of things take up pets, then that I think that has that welfare benefits. um Again, if robots can be used in therapeutic contexts where it might be very stressful that for the dog, then again, that will be welfare benefits for the dog. So you yourself, you don't have a robot pet in any way? I don't have a robot pet in any way. No, I don't. And would you feel, I guess,
00:44:10
Speaker
any desire to have one alongside a real pet for you? I don't think I would do at the moment in this context. and I can't imagine I would, I feel like it, because I do feel that it's kind of qua you know qualitatively different personally for me and that might be why in some contexts it may work and in others it it it doesn't. um But yeah, I can imagine not Looking after it at getting bored with it so i don't think it would i don't think i have ah an interest in that at the moment maybe when i'm older and i don't have a dog and i can't look after. A pet perhaps that will change it's interesting yeah cuz you've got kind of the real mccoy why would you need that right now.
00:44:59
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, I, you totally see a place for them. I mean, I have some dear friends who I've known for a really long time. And at the moment they're in a period of, you know, ill health and they're really struggling to walk their dogs, you know, and you, and you see at different times of people's lives. Okay. Actually, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe looking ahead, walking a dog.
00:45:21
Speaker
Yeah. Once a day, twice a day, it's not feasible anymore. So then what is the alternative? And I mean, a robot dog could be a good option. It could be. It could be. and And they're getting more realistic again. So at the moment, perhaps not. But who knows, as AI becomes better, and um then they're only going to get become more realistic, aren't they? so And what is on the horizon when it comes to AI and robot pets? I think there's much more scope to for these pets to be tailored to individual responses and individual needs and ki you could potentially input, I'm sure.
00:46:06
Speaker
different personalities, if you like, or kind of program it to behave in particular ways that you you would like them to behave. um I haven't, I don't know what people are developing at the moment, but the kind of thinking about these questions, I think, again, in therapeutic contexts, there could even be potentials to exactly program these robotic therapy animals to be responsive in particular ways that the therapist perhaps thinks will be required in the therapy sessions. And I think that would be, that's quite an interesting um prospect to have the much more individually tailored programmable um to to different needs. Really. I think it's quite fascinating. Japan has recently launched that AI power pet called a Moflin. Have you seen that?
00:47:01
Speaker
I have, yes. It's like a little fluffy hamster. What do you think about that? Is it kind of a sign that actually this is going to become more widespread? um i think I think these things, but I think technology is becoming more widespread. So I think robotic pets will probably follow that trend, um as I say, to the extent to which it actually replaces real animals. like we have yet to yet to see. um Japan is a culture that really embraces these um artificial pets. So I think they will perhaps naturally receptive to this idea of robot pets more than um more than we are in the UK. But I do think that that as with all sort of technology, it seems to be generally going in in the direction that there will be more
00:47:53
Speaker
you know, more of these. Now, I guess this discussion as part of this project with the RSPCA kind of can be quite emotive.
Ethical and Societal Impacts of Robot Pets
00:48:02
Speaker
Why do you think that is? Do you think there's kind of a a deep-seated fear of us moving in this direction or fear of robots? um I mean, I think there's certainly fear of robots. We find it very and um unsettling to see these these robots that are quite human-like.
00:48:23
Speaker
It's interesting actually, I'm not sure if we have that quite the same effect when it's animal-like. um So I've seen some fairly sort of convincing animal-like robots and there are some ethical questions around that, but I don't get that sort of emotive response in quite the same way as you do with the with the human robots. But um I think with any new technologies, people ah ah ah kind can be nervous of that. And I think with new technologies, there are inevitably
00:48:58
Speaker
I think we're discovering that more and more with with our new technologies. There are benefits and there are drawbacks and it's not all you know necessarily positive and going in in the same direction. So I think it's understandable to be wary of of um the kind of introduction of robot pets. And I can completely understand that we don't want to see animals disappearing from our lives um and being replaced by by these robotic creatures. so So I can understand that there is i can understand why there would be that that concern. um For that, um ah we know as well, you know, this is sort of in the backdrop really of people
00:49:41
Speaker
not spending much time in nature with with with natural objects, with living other living creatures. And we know that that how beneficial it is to spend more time in nature. So so I think there is potential sort of problems with with new technologies and with new robotic pets just as much as there are potential benefits. ah Same with you know things like social media. We know that there is research that it can be a great social resource for people to connect when they can't connect in real life, when they maybe need to find their particular sort of groups and they're not surrounded by them in the real life. You can connect with people and online and that's hugely beneficial. But at the same time, there is the flip side of it being
00:50:27
Speaker
often very problematic and being a very negative social space. So I think that could be potentially the same situation but it you know with robotic animals, human-like robots, that there will be, if we're careful in certain contexts, there will be certain benefits, but there could potentially still be those drawbacks as well. And I think that's what we see across sort of new technologies.
00:50:52
Speaker
Where do you think we're going to be in 50 years' time? It's really fascinating. I think they will be more realistic. So I think and undoubtedly they're going to be more sophisticated. They're going to have potential to to learn over time and adapt their behaviors. I don't think we will see them replacing live animals sort of across the board. um I think we will maintain that desire to commune with animals we know are alive. Um, so I don't think we will, I don't think that we're going to lose our real pets as a result of that. But I do think that there will be some really, um, you know, really technologically interesting robotic pets out there. Um, I actually think that that that there's a debate going on now with AI sort of more, more generally about, well, when will we know that it becomes sentient if it becomes sentient and actually the ethics might be
00:51:51
Speaker
do we have to start treating our robotic pets more like real pets rather than the other way around and make sure that we do you know but we do care for them? We may be in 50 years' time at a point where we are asking those questions a bit ah bit more readily. Well, that's fascinating. So actually in 50 years' time, we might be required to care for our AI pets as much as we care for our real pets.
00:52:18
Speaker
It's certainly a and debate that people are having around AI generally. you know When will we know that it's it's feeling things? And if if if a creature feels things, we then have a moral obligation to treat it ethically. So we may be in that position where we're actually asking, well, what are the ethics of robot pets rather than than them replacing the real pets? I think that's quite an interesting discussion It's almost kind of, you know, I guess just technology advancing to such a degree whereby actually maybe there's not going to be a cat's whisker between the two of them. I mean, have you read, um, the Android stream of electric sheep or, or blade runner? So that's very much yeah about that question. You know, they can create.
00:53:04
Speaker
replicant humans and pets. And so the real animals still are very much a sought after commodity, um but they are essentially indistinguishable from from the robotic counterparts. So maybe we'll be there. Thank you so much. That was brilliant. While robots might not replace our pets anytime soon, there are some situations where they could have very real benefits.
00:53:34
Speaker
The role of robot pets is just one area explored in the RSPCA's Animal Futures project. To find out more, search Animal Futures. See you on the next episode. Thanks for listening.
00:53:48
Speaker
animal futures was hosted by kate coulton thanks to our guests this episode ted fisher and dr learne series was produced but mark adams chris o'brien emily preda and joe tuscono