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Are we ready to talk to animals?
233 Plays3 months ago
Society has always been fascinated by the prospect of one day being able to talk to animals.
But if we did all turn into Dr. Dolittle overnight, what would animals want to tell us? And would we like what they have to say?
And amid the growth of artificial intelligence, will we soon be able to communicate better with our animals than ever before? Or is the proliferation of bad advice online, and the way some animals remain undervalued by society, mean we're a bit tone deaf to animals' wants and needs?
Broadcaster and journalist Kate Quilton is in conversation with Professor Daniel Mills, from the University of Lincoln, who has spearheaded research about the variety of facial expressions pulled by cats, and utilises computer vision technology to interpret what they mean. He discusses how we process information about what our pets are thinking and feeling; and considers whether animals would ever even want to have conversations with humans!
Kate also catches up with the RSPCA’s own Dr Samantha Gaines, who is the charity’s Head of Companion Animals. She talks about whether we are any good at reading our pets signals, and how the internet can be both a force for good and bad in sharing animal training information. In a must-listen moment, she also grapples with the challenging topic of how we can ever truly know if the pets we share our homes with are happy.
The Animal Futures podcast is part of the RSPCA Animal Futures Project, which explores five possible scenarios of what the world could be like for animals in 2050. People can have their say on the future of animal welfare by joining The Big Conversation, and playing the RSPCA’s Animal Futures game.
Host: Kate Quilton
Guests: Professor Daniel Mills and Dr Samantha Gaines
Produced by: Mark Adams, Chris O'Brien, Emily Prideaux and Jo Toscano.
Animal Futures Project: https://www.rspca.org.uk/whatwedo/latest/animalfutures
Animal Futures Game: https://www.rspca.org.uk/webContent/animalfutures/
Animal Futures: The Big Conversation: http://rspca.org.uk/bigconversation
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Transcript
Introduction to Animal Communication
00:00:01
Speaker
um RSPCA presents Animal Futures, hosted by Kate Quilton. Episode five, are we ready to talk to animals?
Can AI Enable Conversation with Animals?
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome back to RSPCA Animal Futures. I'm broadcaster and journalist Kate Quilton, and today we're going a bit Doolittle. Artificial intelligence is starting to influence all of our lives, but might it mean we will soon hold an actual conversation with animals?
Decoding Cat Expressions with AI
00:00:31
Speaker
Daniel Mills is Professor of Veterinary Behavioral Medicine at the University of Lincoln and has used AI to help decode the facial expressions of cats. I spoke to him about what this could mean for animal welfare, if we'll ever view cat YouTube videos the same way again, and how science fiction sometimes gets it right.
00:00:53
Speaker
Morning, Daniel. Thanks so much for having a chat with us. Morning. I tell you what, let's start at the beginning. So you're a professor of veterinary behavioural medicine at the University of Lincoln. Can you tell us a little bit broadly about that?
00:01:07
Speaker
I qualified as a vet and I went into initially working for an animal charity, um, and then went into general practice and then moved into academia, um, without any higher qualifications. But I always had this interest in companion animal welfare and, um, in sort of the human animal bond, um, and behavior.
00:01:31
Speaker
And, um, um, And sort of Lincoln just had that opportunity to really develop this field. Now this was sort of mid-90s and people just didn't think that you did real research with cats and dogs. and Same way sort of up until the 1960s, people didn't think domestic species were worthy of research.
00:01:52
Speaker
um But then you had things like, you know, Ruth Harrison's book on animal machines, and people started to realize there's far more, you know, that we should be studying in farm animals and and the like.
00:02:03
Speaker
But sort of companion animals, again, I think were a bit of a blind spot for a lot of people because they tended to think of their welfare in terms of, you know, cruelty cases. Yeah.
00:02:15
Speaker
You know, everybody loved their pet except those that were cruel to them. But actually, you know, i guess sort of because of my interest in behavior and managing problem behavior, I saw a lot of people, um and I think also working with the charity, people who love their pets and wanted to do the best for them but just didn't have the information,
00:02:35
Speaker
to effectively manage them as well as they could. So I happen to be in the right place at the right time. And, um, you know, we've built here at Lincoln, one of the largest research groups working with companion animal behavior problems in the world, if not the largest, I don't know.
00:02:55
Speaker
And because I'm surrounded by colleagues from other disciplines, I think, you know, we've we've really looked at some fairly fundamental issues. So I have colleagues in psychology and they very much fed into my interest in animal emotion. And that's where a lot of my research is focused.
00:03:13
Speaker
But ah equally, I work with colleagues in the business school, um looking at the economic significance of companion animals. And I guess it's one of those things that because people weren't working in the field, there's so much to explore um and so many questions that are of interest. Almost anything you do is is novel.
00:03:32
Speaker
What would you say are the biggest barriers when it comes to understanding animal behaviours and their emotions?
Understanding Animal Behavior
00:03:39
Speaker
I think when it comes to companion animals in particular, people think they know already.
00:03:45
Speaker
And, you know, yeah I do research and you publish a paper, you're really proud of it and you think, oh, that's really good. Somebody says, well, I knew that already. And think, no, you believed it.
00:03:55
Speaker
you know Every time, and if I'd got the opposite result, I'd probably have somebody else telling me, well, I knew that already. Um, so there is always that challenge that we think we know more than we do. And I think one of the things that I've learned over my career is, is humility in relation to that, but actually we don't know,
00:04:15
Speaker
um And there is a danger in supposing that we do know because then we only focus on the things that you know we think are important rather than keeping that open mind.
00:04:28
Speaker
And again, it it comes from working with colleagues from diverse disciplines and they say, well, you know, in this species, we'd be worried about this. And you think, oh, yeah, yeah. And one of the things that I've worked on over the last 25 years or so is really trying to develop a more systematic approach for what emotions might exist in cats and dogs and in all species.
00:04:52
Speaker
and Even in the human field, there's not an agreed definition of what emotions are. um And so we started to sort of say, well, these we think are quite important emotions and and develop that approach. And I think that's that's one of the exciting things going forward is now that we have a mechanism for justifying emotions that we can defend in a scientific way rather than just sort of, well, my dog is feeling this, then we're in a much more powerful position to bring that emotion
00:05:25
Speaker
to you know um sort of to the research and say, okay, you know this this behavior of the dog meets all of these requirements.
00:05:37
Speaker
Now, what is it what is it that helps to define it? And that's where using AI and things like that can really help because they will look in a much more objective way.
00:05:48
Speaker
We know you know we have our own biases. If you look at a person, you spend more time looking at their eyes. yeah ah that's just one of the things because the eyes are very revealing for us. And when we look at a dog, we tend to focus on the eyes.
00:06:01
Speaker
Dogs have learned that actually eyes are quite important with people and they're very focused on people's eyes. But when dogs look at other dogs, they tend to spend more time looking at the ears and things like that.
00:06:12
Speaker
Wow, that fascinating. Really? So with other dogs, they look at the ears? They tend to look at the ears and the eyes. but But and the interesting thing is when a dog inspects another dog, yeah, they focus on the ears, which we know are really important in signaling, as well as the eyes.
00:06:28
Speaker
And when they look at people, they focus more on the eyes. Whereas people tend to focus on the eyes, whether they're looking at a dog or a person. So dogs are actually probably better readers of emotion than humans are they know where to look.
00:06:41
Speaker
Wow. Gosh, isn't that fascinating? Yeah. Wow. and Do you have a dog at home? I don't actually. People find that really weird. I don't because I travel a lot with my work and I don't feel that I can look after a dog in a way that I would like it to be looked after because of my lifestyle.
00:07:02
Speaker
um But I have lots of dogs at work. So when I need my dog fixed, I can get it during the day. We're kindred spirits because I'm exactly the same. I don't currently have a dog. I have at different times in my life when I have been more centered at home. But right now, yeah, it's tricky. But yeah, I just wondered if you had your own dog, whether you tuned into their ears. One of the interesting things is um a Finnish group found that people who are very experienced with dogs use bits of their brain to analyze dog-dog interactions that they use for human-human interactions.
00:07:37
Speaker
whereas people who are less experienced with dogs don't. So it seems that if you're immersed and sort of skilled in reading dogs, then you use the same bits of the brain as you do for analyzing human interactions, which access all sorts of other cognitive abilities.
00:07:56
Speaker
Whereas if you're not, then you might know what to look at, but you're possibly not using the right bits of the brain to process it. And I think this is, I find this a fascinating piece of work because it's not a knowledge problem with teaching people how to read dogs.
00:08:17
Speaker
You can tell them they need the practice and they need to keep doing it so that the right bits of the brain kick in in order to do it effectively. and there is a real danger that actually people get into the habit of reading the wrong bits.
00:08:31
Speaker
We also sort of change what we look at according to our distance. And again, you know, at a distance, we will look much more the outlines. So things like the tail and stuff like that have become much more important. But as we get closer, so the face becomes more important to us.
00:08:47
Speaker
And same seems to apply to dogs as well.
AI's Role in Animal Pain Detection
00:08:50
Speaker
Just to check in about well where you're at with ai I mean, there are a lot of people out there in the world who are quite fearful of it right now.
00:08:59
Speaker
Where you're at and your experience of using it, have you got any concerns? Yes, but fortunately we had the movie Terminator a long time ago. um And I think, you know, that was, it's it's it's funny because that actually was an incredibly prescient movie. And I used to tell the students about this, you know, that the thing is, if you leave AI unsupervised, it can be a problem.
00:09:24
Speaker
The sensible way to use AI is to supervise it and to use it to augment human ability, not to replace human ability. Yes, there are certain routine tasks, but That's the sensible all way.
00:09:37
Speaker
And yeah, there are issues when it comes yeah to things like defense, because if AI can make a decision quicker than human, that gives you an advantage, you could argue, in in that setting. So there are those nightmare scenarios. Yeah.
00:09:54
Speaker
But ultimately, you know there there are dangers that it starts to make the wrong decision. And if you give it that degree of autonomy, you can't switch it back.
00:10:05
Speaker
So good science fiction, actually, these they can have they can warn us about some of these issues. So for you, when did you start getting interested in AI?
00:10:16
Speaker
We started, I'm trying to think, probably 10 years ago or more now. um we We were interested, first of all, in painting cats.
00:10:29
Speaker
And we at that time, we had a ah sort of philanthropic backer who said, you know, She was interested in it.
00:10:40
Speaker
Could we do it? And you're probably aware, you know, the whole field of computer vision, um, you know, has really taken off.
00:10:52
Speaker
And we said, well, in theory, we should be able to do this. And when you say computer vision, sorry to interrupt, what do you mean by that, computer vision? Computer vision is so being able get to get computers to analyze videos and images and be able to pick out things.
00:11:07
Speaker
In the human field, and again, this goes back to the idea of the fact that you know i work with colleagues from other disciplines. I had a colleague in um computing here who was working on pain detection in babies.
00:11:19
Speaker
Um, you may or may not be aware, but in the nineteen eighty s they were still not routinely giving painkillers to babies. Um, cause it's, oh, well, they you know, they don't feel the pain, you know?
00:11:30
Speaker
So because they're nonverbal, um you know, they they started to develop these systems to look at pain faces in children. And as I said, I had this um friend who was very much interested in cats.
00:11:45
Speaker
And, you know, it came out from conversation sort of, given this friend that I had in computer vision, the sort of question came up, could we do this in cats? And so she started to bankroll the whole business.
00:12:01
Speaker
And it was early days there. It was challenging. You know, the the big challenges we saw it initially was cats have furry faces, babies don't. And, you know, ah often when you're analyzing pain in people, you're looking for wrinkling and tensing, and that's difficult to see. So that was, it was another level of problem. So the computer scientists liked it because of the other level of problem.
00:12:22
Speaker
There was a little bit of difference between breeds, ah but not as much as there is in dogs. And dogs is a whole other level of problem because of the facial differences. So we started to do that, and we started to make progress.
00:12:34
Speaker
ah we We basically started to build computer masks where you annotate different bits on the face, and you look to see how they change relative to each other. One of the challenges actually was finding conditions where you could be confident that the cat was in pain.
00:12:50
Speaker
Because if you think about it, you know well, if you give a cat painkillers, then you don't know if the cat's face is a pain-free one or perhaps a slightly sedated.
00:13:02
Speaker
So if you do a painful procedure, you don't really want them to cause cats to suffer as part of the work. So a lot of the background work was sort of getting that the date initial data.
00:13:14
Speaker
Okay. And ethically, you know, what is appropriate in terms so of obviously analyzing cat's face when it may be in pain? Yeah, we wanted spontaneously occurring painful conditions.
00:13:25
Speaker
For people who've got pictures of their cats, they've got a diagnosis. We had a group of experts who said if a cat has one of these conditions, it's painful. for And so we've published some of the work, showed that people were starting to produce what's known as grimace scales. they're starting to say, you know, you can look at a cat's face and In a lot of species, you see a tightening of the muzzle when they're in discomfort.
00:13:46
Speaker
And we were seeing similar sorts of changes, but we were looking at things like differences between the ears that changed as well when cats seemed to be in pain. So we got these, and we were able to look at one part relative to another rather than just say, look at this one sign, which again is one of those mistakes people make is they look at one sign and they think they can read the animal. You have to read it all within context.
00:14:07
Speaker
Yeah. And then i had another friend at another and university who started to see our work. And she said, if you've got the videos, I think we can do something. And this is where AI really started to kick in. And it was, you know, it was that those learning processes. so it wasn't just a vision problem. It was the learning data sets.
00:14:28
Speaker
And she was collecting data from various people and starting to pull it. And we could start to look at it. and So that's video of cats?
00:14:38
Speaker
So that's using video of cats and the latest paper actually, which is currently under review. um It may be out by the time this broadcast comes out. Actually, in one data set, we've got over 90% accuracy of what is you know in detection of pain.
00:14:57
Speaker
Now, bear in mind that people are generally about 70% accurate. That's quite amazing, you know? Wow. So people are, if you've showed people images, when we we did the experiment where we showed people images of cats, the same cat, in pain, not in pain, most people get about...
00:15:18
Speaker
60 accuracy people who've experienced a cat in pain um then you know they're a little bit better and vets who've had their own cat experience pain were better but they they were less than 70 in that study things have improved and vets people generally about yeah 70 ish on this sort of task now We used a single data set of very consistent images, but it shows you what the AI can do.
00:15:49
Speaker
As you start to look at different breeds of cats, so it doesn't become as good, but we're now on the cusp of really being able to do this. What we really need is big data sets. That's what the computer scientists want.
00:16:02
Speaker
If we can get into that sort of um situation whereby we can create these large databases, I i think it's we we're very close now to having an automated system.
00:16:14
Speaker
Where you can just determine, is it just whether a cat's in pain or not, or are you looking at other emotions?
Interpreting Animal Emotions
00:16:22
Speaker
So this work is largely focused on pain because, as i said, it's it's slightly more straightforward to define the pain because, as said, we've got conditions that we know are painful.
00:16:32
Speaker
It's still challenging um to get that data set. But I say one of the things I've been working on is what are the discrete emotions that might be important? And we recognize there's a number of core emotions, and hey it gets fairly complicated because you know one of the things about emotions is that emotions we can always make more complex with our thinking.
00:16:59
Speaker
So, you know, you might be anxious about something and because you're uncertain about something, but you can then blow that anxiety up to a really big situation and then it becomes, you know an anxiety disorder.
00:17:14
Speaker
and We sort of construct emotions. And with humans, you know, we have a big diversity of feelings that we blend together and that's how we feel in any given state. So at the moment, you know,
00:17:25
Speaker
You're listening to me. i hope you're interested. So you've got, you know, those positive emotions, but you might be thinking he's not answering my questions. So there's a bit of undercurrent of frustration there, etc.
00:17:37
Speaker
I've not done anything scary, so hopefully you're not scared of me. but So how you feel is that blend of different emotional states. And if you've, you know, if you stubbed your toe, there'd be an element of pain in how you're experiencing, even though you're talking to me, and that would affect how you interact with me.
00:17:53
Speaker
So that's how you experience it, which is almost infinite. So the question then comes, what are the bits that make it up? And that's what we've been looking at. So we think that sort of from a fundamental point of view, you've got things like fear, frustration, pain, desire.
00:18:10
Speaker
We then recognize there are a whole range of social emotions, and they use some of these, but from a clinical point of view of managing the behavior, we consider them separate because they they've they've got other hormones, et cetera, that make them distinct.
00:18:26
Speaker
If you leave a dog alone, you know, the dog, we talk about separation anxiety. That's often the dog is very frustrated when it's left alone. It's not scared. Sometimes they are. um They might feel insecure.
00:18:37
Speaker
But problem is they're surrounded by four walls that they can't escape from. So that's a frustration problem. But because it's associated with distance from an attachment figure, again, there's extra hormones and a simple frustration um if the owner was there.
00:18:55
Speaker
So from ah again, from a clinical management point of view, but from a facial point of view, we would largely see expressions of frustration. So now we're in this position whereby we can start to talk about how do we evidence these fundamental states like fear and frustration?
00:19:12
Speaker
and And then what are the facial features? And I think that's something that, again, If we can gather the videos and get the right information to tag those videos, then we can start to answer those questions and start to get much more reliable information. Most of the stuff now that's out there on you know pet readers is fairly gimmicky. um But we I think we have the potential to ground it in real science to get an idea of how the animal is feeling.
00:19:41
Speaker
One of the things that we established fairly early on when we started to look at the breed differences is when you look at a Persian cat face, it actually has many of the features of a cat's face that's in pain.
00:19:54
Speaker
They have broad they've they've broad space between the ears and they have this short muzzle, which looks like a tightened muzzle. Now, for me, there's fascinating questions here because, first of all, we know that humans are drawn to care for other individuals on the basis of certain superficial features.
00:20:13
Speaker
So, you know, if you look at cartoon features, you see big eyes, high foreheads, ah and relatively small mouths. These are all features that you get in babies.
00:20:24
Speaker
And the majority of people go for the one with those little features. they they And they don't and know there's a difference, but they can't necessarily say what it is. Is that to do with, I guess, human beings and nurturing babies?
Impact of Human Preferences on Animal Breeding
00:20:37
Speaker
and Exactly where it comes from. And this is where we have the problem with brachycephalic greeds, because they have these features.
00:20:45
Speaker
Oh, okay. Now there is a dark side to this, which takes us to both the brachycephalics and also the Persian cats. Tell me what brachycephalics are. Short-nosed breeds like pugs and things like that that have difficulty in breathing.
00:20:58
Speaker
Right, okay, but we, I guess, as human beings, just have a preference for that kind of dog. They've got big eyes, high foreheads, broad faces. They've got many of that, what we call the baby schema, which subconsciously we find attractive.
00:21:16
Speaker
So again, telling people that these dogs have difficulty breathing, what's some work we're doing we've done at the moment, we' not published it, but if you tell somebody, you know, these dogs have difficulty breathing, you you would the idea of a campaign is to say, therefore, we shouldn't be brief breeding these dogs because they're suffering.
00:21:35
Speaker
you If you're attracted to these dogs, you process the message more as, well, these dogs have difficulty breathing and I like them, so I ought to get one so I can care for it. So you have the exact opposite effect in your welfare campaign.
00:21:49
Speaker
You actually encourage ownership by campaigning against it and talking about all the faults because of the way people process information. Oh, gosh. So anyway, let's go back to the ah Persian cats. Yeah, I mean, yeah, this is absolutely fascinating. Okay, back to the Persian cats.
00:22:05
Speaker
So with the Persian cats, they have a lot of these features that we associate with pain. So the question then comes up, we know that these breeds of cat have difficulty in breathing.
00:22:16
Speaker
Have we bred a cat that looks like it's in pain because we find it attractive? Because the other thing that we find attractive are things like, you know a toddler, the way they walk.
00:22:28
Speaker
You think, oh, isn't that cute? that you know They're stumbling all over. So actually, maybe we're attracted to animals that are lame or have got signs of pain because it brings out that nurturing because the features that a cat or dog shows in pain are quite similar to the features a human does.
00:22:44
Speaker
And again, as a social species, we're drawn to care in these situations. So we don't know whether or not with the when it comes to a Persian cat, we don't know whether we have a cat that looks like it's in pain and we find attractive or whether or not because of the breathing problems they have, they are all in pain.
00:23:03
Speaker
So pain detection using AI incursions is going to be a lot harder. And this is where we're going, is that, okay, identify the breed or type of cat face, then tell me if it's in pain. So you build in these extra layers, and this is how you build it up.
00:23:19
Speaker
There is another ah bit of an experiment that we did, and I i don't don't think we published this bit. We asked people a little bit about their background, and one of the questions we asked is, do you have any training in animal behavior?
00:23:31
Speaker
And we actually found that people who said yes to that question seemed to be amongst the worst in doing the classification. And I think what was going on there, and again, this is sort of going back to ah so how human brains work, that um if when you look at a face, we process it, what we call holistically, you look at all of the features and you draw conclusions.
00:23:54
Speaker
Whereas the people with the training in animal behavior have been taught to break things down. it said Eyes, nose, mouth. And he looked at them individually, and so they missed the holistic picture. And so they they may well have fixated onto one of the individual features rather than just gone with their gut.
00:24:10
Speaker
Beyond the home, outside of domestic pets, how can your work have a place when it comes to say farm animals? Do you think that we in the future will be analyzing the emotions of farm animals and therefore adjusting welfare or adjusting how we keep
AI Monitoring for Farm Animal Welfare
00:24:31
Speaker
them?
00:24:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think so, because, I mean, i know other guy sort of said, look if you think of dairy cows, if they go in into to be milked, you've got a perfect situation there to be able to monitor their faces and perhaps pick up that they're uncomfortable. Maybe they've got, you know,
00:24:48
Speaker
ah problems with their feet, which is a big problem for dairy cows. And so maybe AI could actually tell us that you know twice a day. In fact, as the cow walks in to get milked, then you get a flag that says, know Daisy's not feeling too good today.
00:25:04
Speaker
And again, you know i think there's an interesting argument about depending on how much we interfere with an animal affects our level of responsibility to it. So something that we keep confined and limit their choices, then we have greater responsibility.
00:25:20
Speaker
I think that's a fair, you know, to me that's a fair system. And, you know, it's what I call a social contract. but you You don't just get your way just because you can do things. You have to consider. in the same way as Because you can dominate.
00:25:34
Speaker
Because you can dominate. That's all all the more reason why you need to consider the other party because they are at a disadvantage. And so it's easier to unintentionally abuse that situation.
00:25:47
Speaker
So if we fast forward to 2050 with the rapid technological progress we're seeing, particularly in the space of ai Like if you look in your crystal ball, in terms of improving our communication with animals, where do you think it could go? i I'm going to come at it with my own biases.
00:26:08
Speaker
I do think that we will have these systems for recognizing emotions. I think they will be supervised, though. They're there to alert people as an aid. I don't think, I'm not one of these people that thinks, as say, we're going to be we going to let AI take over the world. I think we're going to stay in control of it.
00:26:27
Speaker
And that's the smart thing to do. um we will see disparities. um I think one of the big challenges, you we're already seeing this, is different countries have different welfare standards.
00:26:46
Speaker
And we've got a society that's increasingly um disparate between the the wealthy and the poor. um So people are, you know, those people that can afford it may well be in a better position to make decisions for better welfare, but other people, you know.
00:27:09
Speaker
So i think some animals are going to be worse off. I think some some animals are going to be better off. And the question will start to come, you know as we start to go with animals we share our lives less closely with,
00:27:23
Speaker
um Obviously, you know, we think about mammals, we think about birds, but people are starting to talk about emotional processes in insects. Now, whether or not they have that experience of feeling, which is slightly different, um we're not entirely sure.
Do Animals Want Conversations?
00:27:42
Speaker
And what do you think about direct communication with animals? Could that be on the horizon? It's an interesting one. It depends what you mean by communications. I don't think, I almost enjoy having conversations or or talking with their pets.
00:27:56
Speaker
Absolutely. I don't know that animals particularly want to have a conversation because again, you know, it's because we elaborate on things that,
00:28:09
Speaker
To me, a conversation is, you know, two people or more talk about something, they have an opinion, and at the end of the conversation, they've changed their opinion because they've learned something.
00:28:21
Speaker
You know, that's that's what a conversation is. Otherwise, it's just speaking at someone or whatever. You know, you've got to be prepared to change your opinion if you're having a conversation. You're going to learn something from the exchange. I think, you know, the more I've studied...
00:28:34
Speaker
um the minds of other species, cats and dogs in particular, and horses, the more I thought they don't think that much. that's They can be smart. They're incredibly sensitive.
00:28:48
Speaker
They're very, very perceptive, but they don't clutter their brain with all of that extra thinking that we do. Now, it's very, very difficult for us to get into that frame of mind. If you do meditation, then you might have a glimmer of what it is to really be in the here and now.
00:29:04
Speaker
So... don you know I'm not sure we could have the conversation that we'd want with our animals because they wouldn't understand what we're talking about. we can um they We can ask them, are you happy?
00:29:15
Speaker
I think AI can tell us that they're happy.
00:29:19
Speaker
But how do I communicate to a dog what happiness is with the words? You know? And does a dog experience happiness beyond, I guess,
00:29:31
Speaker
carnal needs, being satisfied and, you know, bowl of kibble. And yeah you know what I mean? It's interesting, isn't it? Because they are so present. Actually, is it easier to make a dog happy?
00:29:45
Speaker
When it comes to whales and elephants, maybe we could have a conversation. But I think for most of the species we deal with, we will be able to understand them better. But I don't think, you know, your cat do you think your cat really wants to have a conversation with you?
00:30:01
Speaker
I don't. No, have a bat. So, you know, he's not interested in what's on my mind. Well, it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you.
00:30:13
Speaker
Incredible. um I'm loving all the tales of the cat whispering and I cannot wait for the next chapter and I can't wait to read your paper, hopefully. Should it be will it be out soon? um It's under review at the moment, so it should be out relatively soon.
00:30:28
Speaker
I hope it gets accepted. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Daniel. That was absolutely fascinating. A peek into the crystal ball. Absolute pleasure. Thank you.
00:30:40
Speaker
So Daniel doesn't think we'll be having one-on-one conversations with animals anytime soon. but even if we could, would you want to? Have your say on this topic and more by taking part in Animal Futures, The Big Conversation.
00:30:56
Speaker
Search RSPCA Animal Futures to find out more. Next, I spoke to one of the RSPCA's own experts, Dr. Samantha Gaines, a dog welfare specialist and the charity's head of companion animal science.
00:31:10
Speaker
She talked to me about how technology could help us decode pet behavior.
RSPCA's Evidence-Based Approach to Animal Welfare
00:31:18
Speaker
Hello Sam, thanks so much for joining us. Hi Kurt, it's lovely to meet you. you're Head of Companion Animals at RSPCA. Can you tell us a little bit about what that entails?
00:31:32
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So um i am in a very lucky position that I work with a team of specialists. We are all scientifically trained with a lot of practical experience working with a whole variety different companion animals.
00:31:46
Speaker
And our role for the RSPCA is to basically use evidence to drive forward positive change for animals that are kept as pets, that are used for sport and are also used as working animals. And what we are trying to achieve through policy change, behaviour change,
00:32:02
Speaker
change within corporate bodies is ensuring that all those animals have the opportunity to experience a good life. So we are tackling some quite chunky issues as well that affect companion animals and particularly animals in sport.
00:32:16
Speaker
So we're looking at how we can tackle um extreme breeding, for example. So where we are selecting animals to look a particular way, but which then unfortunately leads them to experience significant health issues. We're also looking at how can we provide horses with a good quality of life.
00:32:34
Speaker
We're also tackling issues like greyhound racing. We want to see an end to greyhound racing. So we are doing a whole range of different activities but typically are very focused on cats, dogs, horses, and then lots of small fairies. So rabbits, guinea pigs, hamsters, chinchillas, gerbils, hamsters, mice, rats, and also pigeons and doves.
00:32:54
Speaker
So we've got a whole array of different animals that we get to work with and really try to influence life for the better. I think even your job title is interesting, as in, you know, I guess at the RSPCA you've chosen to call them companion animals.
00:33:10
Speaker
It's a term that probably isn't best understood when we're talking about our relationship with animals, perhaps with the general public. We're typically talking about animals that we keep as pets.
00:33:22
Speaker
But I think, you know, to be fair, actually, in many cases, the reason why people bring animals into their homes and choose to have them as part of their family is because they want companionship. So actually, that's probably more talking about the role that we expect these animals to provide for us. and But obviously, in some cases, you know,
00:33:41
Speaker
Horses are a really good example where we don't always have them for companionship. We actually might have them because we want to take part in some sporting activities or we might want them for leisure purposes.
00:33:53
Speaker
But yeah, I often have to explain what my role actually is as head of companion animals um and head of pets doesn't quite sound the same, does it? And when it comes to those companion animals, what do you think the biggest challenges are right now regarding welfare in and the
Breeding Issues and Public Misconceptions
00:34:07
Speaker
UK? Well, I think one of the the really big challenges is just the ease with which we can acquire animals keep in our home and also the ease at which people can breed as well.
00:34:19
Speaker
And we're seeing a huge influence at the moment on what people find desirable being played out in the animals that they want to choose to bring into their homes. And probably a really good example of this is when we look at dogs, we are seeing a huge boom in certain breeds and types of dog. For example, those that have been selected to have flat faces.
00:34:39
Speaker
The research is now suggesting that they account for something like 19% of our population of dogs, which is around 12.6 million. So that's a huge number of dogs who we've selected for a particular look, but whose look actually results in really significant suffering for many, many of those dogs.
00:34:59
Speaker
So, you know, the fact that we have selected for a really short muzzle really impacts upon their ability to breathe. So we've got dogs who have the same amount of tissue, for example, in their skull compressed into a much, much smaller space, which is why it's so hard for them to breathe.
00:35:17
Speaker
And with that, you then end up with dogs that have got much larger eyes, tend to have skeletal problems, skin problems. So our desire for this look and for something that's cute has come at a huge, huge cost to dog welfare.
00:35:30
Speaker
And we are now sadly also seeing that being played out for selection of other extreme body shapes and in other companion animals as well. So it's a huge, huge issue that we're trying to tackle and one that the RSPCA has really put up as a priority issue that we need to be tackling if we want to protect the future of companion animals and we want to ensure that they can all experience a good quality of life.
00:35:53
Speaker
What we also see, unfortunately, as well, is behaviour that people see as desirable in some dogs is a direct result of the fact that these dogs have got such significant health issues. So, for example,
00:36:04
Speaker
When people are talking about some of these flat-faced dogs, they will refer to them as being lazy or not needing much exercise. And so that's traits that some people find really desirable, but it's actually because obviously for some of these dogs, they have such problems with their breeding that they're not lazy. They're just not actually capable of carrying out much exercise without becoming short of breath.
00:36:29
Speaker
The extent to which we've altered dogs' body shapes actually does make it really difficult to read some dogs. So, you know, what we've also seen in recent years is a real surge in ear cropping.
00:36:40
Speaker
And so this is where dogs have had their ear flap either shirked or entirely removed, again, because people desire a particular look and having a dog with cropped ears often makes them look more intimidating or more dangerous.
00:36:56
Speaker
But aside from the pain that that procedure causes, it also has a huge impact on their ability to signal how they're feeling. So dogs will typically use their ears and a whole range of other body signals to tell us how they're feeling.
00:37:11
Speaker
And they are very, very good at communicating to us. They try incredibly hard, but we are not good at reading those signals. And we've made it even harder for ourselves when we've bred dogs who perhaps can't changed their ear carriage, have got such thick folded skin that it's difficult to see when they're tense or when they're relaxed or we've potentially changed their tail shape you can't see when it's relaxed and hanging loose or wagging.
00:37:38
Speaker
So, you know, we we really have made it harder for ourselves to read dogs because they incredible communicators. And they are always trying to tell us how they're feeling. They are always using elements of their body tell us whether they're feeling happy and relaxed, whether they're worried about something, whether they're feeling angry ah whether they're feeling sad.
00:38:01
Speaker
How well do you think we now understand animal behavior?
Reevaluating Dominance Theory in Dogs
00:38:10
Speaker
Do you think we've got a good level of comprehension you know with our pets at home?
00:38:14
Speaker
i would probably argue that we don't. um And I think this, again, is for a number of different reasons. I have to say, though, that I've been with the RSPCA now for 16 years. And in the time that I've been with the RSPCA, we have seen some huge advances in our understanding around pet behavior that has really, really helped us understand how we can provide for the welfare needs of our pets, how we give them happy lives.
00:38:43
Speaker
And probably the best example I can give is just our understanding of dogs and social behaviour and what drives aggression in dogs. Because when I first started 16 years ago, we typically thought that, of the general school of thought, was that if you had a dog who was using aggressive behaviour,
00:39:02
Speaker
It was because he was trying to achieve a higher status. He wanted to be pack leader. He wanted to be top dog. And that so that challenge was basically for that top position.
00:39:15
Speaker
And we were told that if you wanted to then manage that aggressive behavior, you had to show your dog that you were pack leader. And you could do this through a variety of different ways. So some quite benign ways were don't let your dog on your bed, don't let your dog at the top of the stairs, don't let them through a threshold first, make sure you eat your dinner before them.
00:39:35
Speaker
But it also was coupled with some really quite aversive training techniques that can cause pain and fear. So we would see things like if a dog was believed to be challenging or trying to take control, them being pinned to the floor or rolled over onto their back.
00:39:51
Speaker
And the idea being here is that in the wild, that's what another more dominant dog would do to show that dog that they were not top dog. And thankfully, what we then found out was that the basis on which we'd made these assumptions around behavior were completely um unreliable. And what it had come from was a small captive population of wolves that were observed in the 70s.
00:40:19
Speaker
And what was seen with those wolves was a very rigid hierarchical structure whereby one or two individual wolves would maintain control of the rest of that group.
00:40:32
Speaker
And what you would see is that structure be maintained through aggression and certain individuals placing really strong value on resources. Now, what was then found out was that actually that was not representative of natural wolf behavior at all. When you look at wolves in the wild, they live very much like family structures. It's very cooperative.
00:40:50
Speaker
And then when we looked at dog behavior in free living, free roaming dogs, we saw that the relationships were really, really fluid. So you'd have some individual dogs that had placed value on certain resources, but that would change over time.
00:41:03
Speaker
So it really started to challenge how we were looking at dogs and how we expected them to behave and how we would modify and manage behaviour. And thankfully now, all of that theory that was known as Donnan's theory and pack theory has been debunked.
00:41:18
Speaker
And we know that if dogs are using aggressive behaviour, is typically because they are experiencing a negative emotional state. They're not trying to challenge us. They're not trying to take control of the world.
00:41:30
Speaker
Actually, what they're trying to tell us is that to some extent they may be in pain, they feel threatened, they're worried, they're anxious. And I think now that has really helped us better understand our dogs because it means we can take appropriate action, we can get help from vets, from behaviorists, rather than resorting to what were really quite horrific training techniques in some cases.
00:41:53
Speaker
And do you think that that knowledge is widespread? No, and I think again that is the problem because what we do have is very, very easy access to behavioural information via the internet.
00:42:08
Speaker
So we probably had 10, 15, 20 years ago a little bit more control over what information could go out to people and individuals would come to organisations like the RSPCA as trusted sources or they would seek advice from their vet.
00:42:22
Speaker
What we now know and certainly through some of the research that we've done is that people do rely on the internet to get information around behaviour. and unfortunately, that's a complete minefield. So it's very easy still to access out-of-date behavioural information that has the potential to compromise welfare.
00:42:40
Speaker
Have you seen in recent years ah growth in our understanding of our pets? I mean, how do you think we've got better at understanding our pets?
00:42:51
Speaker
We have done research looking at this um and yeah we've done a lot of research in relation to dogs. We were really keen to understand actually and back in 2018 how in tune owners were around their dog behaviour.
00:43:06
Speaker
And we had some really stark results that came through that made it really clear that there's a lot we need to do to help people understand dogs. So we asked dog owners what emotions they thought their dogs could feel. And 90% of them said that they thought the dogs could feel happiness, but only 63% said that they could feel sadness.
00:43:28
Speaker
2% of the respondents said that they didn't think that dogs felt any emotions. Really? That is interesting because ah you'd think that we all know about the tail wagging. Even then, that's tricky because you know we we but we most of us think that a dog with a wagging tail is a happy, friendly dog, and that's not the case.
00:43:48
Speaker
So depending upon where the dog's tail is positioned and the frequency with which they're wagging also tells us about how they're feeling. So if you've got a dog who has got a very high tail and it's rapidly wagging, that's generally a dog that's feeling a little bit worried about a situation.
00:44:08
Speaker
And this is why it's very important that when we're looking behaviour signals and but you know and the communication that dogs are giving us through their body, we're looking at all of their body and that we're not just honing in to certain parts of their body. There's lots of signals that dogs give us that people potentially misinterpret. And I think that that is what is concerning. a really good like example was around dogs being left by themselves.
00:44:35
Speaker
So when we asked people, you know, how long do you think that dogs should be left alone for? 80%, 87% them would say, well, you know, it's really important that dogs have company during the day, but then 20% of dogs were left for more than four hours a day by themselves, which is more than what the RSPCA would normally recommend a dog to be left alone.
00:44:56
Speaker
So we have this challenge where people have potentially a good understanding around behaviour, but whether that actually then is translated into how they behave,
00:45:08
Speaker
creates another problem. So we have dogs that really want to be with us, but our lives don't always correspond with that. And I think COVID was a great example of showing that at a time when people really needed a companion, we saw this huge surge in interest in people getting dogs and lots of first-time owners bringing dogs into their home.
00:45:31
Speaker
And it worked really, really well. People were at home, they could give the dogs all the attention that they need. But then obviously when we went post-COVID and people went back to work, we then had this generation of dogs that actually hadn't learned that it was okay to be left by themselves.
00:45:46
Speaker
And we've now got a generation of dogs that are really struggling with being left on their own and are showing a whole range of behavior when they are left by themselves. So, you know, dogs who are vocalizing when they're left alone, they may be destroying ah items with their home. They might be also going to the toilet.
00:46:05
Speaker
And some signs are really subtle. So, you know you might see dogs that are panting or salivating. And it's very much a hidden issue because obviously by its nature, it happens when you're not there.
00:46:17
Speaker
So people don't necessarily even realize that their dog is struggling to be by themselves alone. They see that when they return home, the dog's super excited. but what they haven't seen is what's happening when they're not there.
00:46:28
Speaker
So again, one of the things that the RSPCA encourages is people to actually video out their dogs when they are by themselves so that they can have hopefully the reassurance that their dog is very happy and relaxed and actually is just fast asleep whilst you're not there or that they are occupied and being kept entertained by perhaps a toy that you've left them with.
00:46:47
Speaker
But it is one of those issues that we really fear affects a huge number of dogs and the scientific research typically suggests it's around 20% of the population.
00:46:58
Speaker
But there was some really pioneering research that was done by Channel 4 and the University of Bristol a few years ago that suggested it could be anything to eight out of ten dogs that struggle to be left alone and then but yeah when they're on their own.
00:47:10
Speaker
So again, you know, we've spoken about extreme breeding, but actually for dogs being left alone is potentially huge welfare issue as well. And my, my own dog actually had separation related behavior when I got her and we did have a very thorough, robust program that we introduced and that we use. And she now quite happily stays by herself for a couple of hours at a time.
00:47:34
Speaker
um So it absolutely is treatable. But obviously you have to know that it's happening in the first place to do something about it. We would encourage neighbours that if they hear their neighbour's dog barking during the day or howling and whining to let their neighbour know, because again, they just might not be aware. And once they're aware, they've then got that knowledge to be able to do something.
00:47:52
Speaker
And then it's making sure that they get the right advice, which is why we'd hope they'd come to somewhere like the RSPCA to find out what to do. So if we haven't got you in the room, Sam, helping us interpret how a dog is feeling,
00:48:05
Speaker
ah how do you feel about AI helping us with that in the future?
AI's Potential and Pitfalls in Behavior Interpretation
00:48:11
Speaker
Do you think it has the potential to help us interpret the behavior of our dogs?
00:48:17
Speaker
I think absolutely there is a place for AI in this and we are certainly already seeing some applications of AI helping us understand our own individual dog's behaviour. So we are now seeing, for example, cameras that people can install in their homes that basically observe the dog over a period of the day.
00:48:38
Speaker
They collect that information, analyse it and then can feed back to the owner what their dog did during that day and what different behaviours mean. But my concern around this sort of technology is the accuracy of it.
00:48:52
Speaker
So is it interpreting correctly some of the behaviours that your dog is displaying, particularly when we know, you know, we've just said that for some dogs it's very difficult for the them to communicate how they feel because of how we've selected certain physical appearances.
00:49:08
Speaker
For other dogs, they may change how they display behaviour through learned experiences. So if, for example, they get punished or told off for showing a particular behaviour, they might not then show that anymore because they're fearful of consequences.
00:49:22
Speaker
So there is the accuracy, I think, of the extent to which the AI can accurately then interpret that information. And with some of that certainly with some of the behavioural AI that's out there,
00:49:35
Speaker
That is also then telling owners how to modify and manage behaviour. And going back to you know our previous points about actually you can end up doing things that are really um serious in terms of the consequences on welfare for dogs.
00:49:50
Speaker
We have to just make sure that what's going in is good quality and what comes out is good quality. um So I think there's a place for that. But, you know, i think ultimately we just have to make sure that it is is' valid and it's meaningful and we're getting the right information.
00:50:06
Speaker
Do you think that we'll ever get to a point where we can effectively converse with our pets?
Balancing AI Insights with Pet Happiness
00:50:12
Speaker
ah So this is is just such an interesting question because on the one hand, I approach it very much as, you know, like we have to recognize that, you know, dogs are very different species. Cats are very different species to us. And so we're probably never going to be in a situation where we could have a conversation with our dogs or our cats in the same way that you and I are having a conversation now, particularly because when we think about dogs, dogs are, when it comes to communication, very much in a world of smell, we're very much in the world of vision and obviously verbal communication. So it's a bit different, but there is a bit of me that,
00:50:46
Speaker
that is super excited to think that we might actually have a much deeper understanding of what's going on in their minds. And I was thinking about this earlier because I i have a ah dog who I rescued from the ARIS PCA about 10 years ago.
00:51:00
Speaker
And she, on a night time, when she comes to bed, she always gets in her bed next to my bed. And then at some point during the night, she gets up and I think it's because she's cold and On most nights, she will get into bed with me and my husband and she wants to get right under the duvet and she does. But on some nights, she chooses to go upstairs to my daughter's bedroom.
00:51:23
Speaker
And I'd love to know why she's doing that. And you know I think the ability to understand some of that... has really, really great potential to actually allowing our dogs to experience really good, rich lives and allowing them to thrive with us because they could potentially then tell us what they really, really like, what they dislike, what they want, what they need.
00:51:46
Speaker
But I think with that then becomes a really potentially difficult situation where we might find out that actually the pets that we share our homes with are hugely unhappy.
00:51:59
Speaker
Now, having that knowledge would then put us in a really difficult situation because what do you do if you find out that the animal that you're sharing your home with is actually really unhappy for the vast majority of the time?
00:52:11
Speaker
Yes, it could potentially revolutionize the way in which we actually share our homes with pets and give us a lot more information and knowledge to do so. But I think it does potentially really open up a big question around then whether we should be keeping pets in our homes.
00:52:27
Speaker
you know If ultimately they are unhappy, then but you know the only people that are benefiting from that relationship is us. And I think that's that's what's interesting about AI and its potential, that we do make assumptions.
00:52:42
Speaker
You know, I look at her every day and I think that she's happy. You know, she spends a lot of time asleep. So, you know, she she gets to do the things that I think she really values.
00:52:54
Speaker
But, you know, there's certainly dogs that I see on a regular basis that I would probably question whether they are happy. i think a really good example is and when we take dogs out for walks, as people, we have a very different view of exercise compared to what dogs view exercise.
00:53:14
Speaker
So when we're going out for exercise, we're typically thinking that we want to go out, we want to potentially elevate our heart rate, or we want to get somewhere quite quickly. For dogs, they don't want to do that.
00:53:27
Speaker
Basically, what dogs want to be able to do is is to stop and sniff their environment because that's where they get their information from. So if you think about the number of times that you're walking around your neighborhood, you see people who are walking their dog, their dog stops sniffer lamp and they get pulled away.
00:53:45
Speaker
That is the equivalent of you looking at social media and someone snatching the phone away from you so you can't see it. Because where you're getting your information from is basically where is what dogs are doing when they're in the lamppost. So they're getting information around...
00:54:00
Speaker
which dog was here previously, were they male or female? like They get lots and lots of information. And similarly, when they're going out for a walk and they see another dog, they often will want to go and see that dog because they want to get information from them and they do that through sniffing.
00:54:17
Speaker
And so I think that's often what is really tricky for dogs is that they live in this world of smell, which is so incredible, but we can often deny them the ability to actually use that really strong sense.
00:54:31
Speaker
And what we think might be a really nice walk for them, 30 minutes at ah quite a fast pace around the block, actually for them was not that enjoyable because they didn't get to sniff the things that they wanted to sniff and they didn't get the opportunity to leave their scent either, which is often them telling other dogs that they were there.
00:54:48
Speaker
In the future, if we do go into more information using AI about what our pets are thinking and feeling, you think, well...
AI in Health Monitoring vs. Human Interaction
00:54:59
Speaker
That's got to be, I guess, a good thing.
00:55:01
Speaker
and One of the things that we're seeing is like an increased use of technology for veterinary consultations to make it more accessible for people to seek help around their pet's health, which obviously is not, you know, it's not going to necessarily be a bad thing. It should be incredibly positive.
00:55:17
Speaker
And we're seeing increased reliance on AI for like health monitoring, which allows early detection of possible disease. Or you know if we see a change in normal behaviour, that can often be an indication that their pet is unwell.
00:55:29
Speaker
So absolutely, you know i think the there really is good potential for the use of AI. I think... There are just some areas where i am nervous um and in particular, you know, the replacement potentially of people providing social interaction to dogs.
00:55:47
Speaker
So there is already uprise in technology that is seeking to find a way of providing companionship and entertainment to pets who are by themselves.
00:55:59
Speaker
And, you know, I guess it's probably with good intentions to make sure that their dog their cat or whatever animal is not bored when they're left alone or, you know, are not suffering. But when we come to dogs, you know, I really would question to what extent we really can replace people with AI as a form of social interaction when we've spent such a long time selecting dogs properly.
00:56:22
Speaker
who are part of our family. you know, they they love us. They want to be with us. I don't, you know, i again, I'd love to ask my dog, you know, would she really want to spend time with a machine that can potentially throw a ball for her? Or would she prefer to be with me?
00:56:38
Speaker
And I actually think she would much, much prefer to be with me. If we look into the crystal ball, what do you think pet ownership will look like in 2050? If I look, think back over the past, what, 25 years and how things have changed in 2020, you know, we've seen some really, really good things that have happened for the better, but also things that have happened much, much more for the worse. And I just, I really, really hope that actually this is where ai really can help.
00:57:09
Speaker
and to just really set out a better understanding of the animals that we share our lives with so that we genuinely do know what they want and what they need and that we can basically behave according to that.
00:57:24
Speaker
I would hate to think that in the next 25 years we have dogs or cats or any species that we have selected even more so than what we're doing now that basically sets the animals up to experience a life of suffering because of, you know, a selection for a particular extreme feature. i'd I'd hate to think that that is the case, but at the moment it feels that that is a potential avenue we could go down. um And so I think it's it's hugely important, the work like the RSPCA and other organisations are doing to really understand how do we tackle these really, really significant issues that in 2050 we have a really, really good relationship
00:58:06
Speaker
with our companion animals, but equally they have a really, really good relationship with us as well because it has to be a mutually beneficial relationship.
Responsible Pet Ownership and Research
00:58:14
Speaker
What do you think we could be doing right now to ensure our pets have a better future?
00:58:18
Speaker
ah think a really, really key point for anyone that is looking to bring an animal into their home is to make sure that they do their research before they do so and Bringing any animal into your home comes with a huge amount of responsibility and commitment.
00:58:34
Speaker
If we're talking about dogs and cats, we're talking about animals that share their lives with us for, you know, like 10, 12, 15 years. Even some of the smaller animals like rabbits can live for eight or 10 years.
00:58:46
Speaker
So it's hugely important that before we bring them in we make sure we know that we can provide for their welfare needs. We know what they need in order to thrive in our homes, how to experience a good quality of life.
00:58:58
Speaker
and that we can do that. And I think that's, know, it's absolutely key that the research is so fundamental because it's through gaining that information and gathering that information that you can then make sure that you acquire your pet responsibly, you know how to care for them, how to manage them.
00:59:16
Speaker
If it's a dog, how you control for them and how you give them that good quality of life. And at the moment, it is just too easy for people to go out and acquire a pet. I could go and get a dog tomorrow super easily.
00:59:30
Speaker
no one would necessarily do the checks on me that they should be doing, depending upon where I go. so you know, there is a huge, huge risk for animals coming into homes where people are not prepared and are unable to care for them.
00:59:43
Speaker
And once they're there, they're there. You know, and I think... and We have to also, we've got but like 12.6 million dogs that are living with us. And I'd like to think you know that lots of them are are having a really lovely life and are thriving with their families.
01:00:01
Speaker
But it does take a lot to be able to allow them to thrive. And, you know, I just certainly the RSPCA, is very, very keen on making sure obviously that people do bring animals into their home where they can provide for their welfare needs. And so we are looking at things like licensing, which hopefully then would at least slow down, I think, some of the decision making that's made around acquisition um of companion animals and in particular dogs.
01:00:30
Speaker
So yeah could potentially provide a means of helping people go through a decision-making process so that when they come out the other side, they're making that decision with as much knowledge and information as possible. And it is an informed decision that they've made.
01:00:45
Speaker
Gosh, brilliant. Well, lots of incredible thoughts and facts there. Really, really interesting to talk to you. i mean it's... some I mean, just to get an insight on animal behavior in that way, you've totally opened my eyes.
01:01:01
Speaker
I'm going to look at a dog's tail wagging in a very different light going forwards. yeah it's amazing, isn't it? The abundance of, you know, communication and messages that is there ready to be interpreted.
01:01:13
Speaker
Dogs are telling us all the time how they feel. They are trying to communicate to us all of the time. We just have to be much, much better. at reading those signals, recognising them and understanding them and what they mean and being prepared to change our behaviour accordingly. And I think, you know, probably actually what is really important to stress is that this is particularly the case if you do have children and dogs that live together, because that's often when things, you know have the potential to go wrong because children are very physical little beings.
01:01:47
Speaker
You know, my daughter's 13, but when she was much, much younger, we had two dogs at that point. And I spent a significant amount of my time basically ensuring that what she didn't do was run up to them, cuddle them, kiss them, hug them in the way that she wants to express her affection towards me and other family members.
01:02:06
Speaker
Dogs don't like that sort of behavior. It's really threatening for them to be hugged and certainly to be kissed. It's not normal dog-to-dog behavior. So again, it's understanding that how we might show affection towards one another isn't always how we should show affection towards a dog or another species. And it's understanding what they want. So, you know, from my daughter's perspective, it was like, well, we can go and play with them in the park. We can take them for a nice sniffy walk. We can play ball.
01:02:35
Speaker
That's how you show them how you love them They certainly don't want to have your little hands flung around their neck and squeezed. Yeah. difficult lessons to teach young children but essential yeah brilliant hey thank you so much sam that was fascinating thank you
01:02:57
Speaker
it sounds like ai could be a vital tool to help us understand animals but there's also work for all of us to do to understand what our pets are trying to tell us Technology is going to continue to have an impact on all of our lives.
01:03:12
Speaker
You can explore more about what it might mean for animals by searching um RSPCA Animal Futures. Thank you to all our guests today and thank you for listening.
01:03:23
Speaker
Animal Futures was hosted by Kate Coulton. With thanks to our guests today, Professor Daniel Mills and Dr. Samantha Gaines. The series was produced by Mark Adams, Chris O'Brien, Emily Prudeau and Joe Toscanan.