Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to the Italian football podcast with John Solano, Carlo Garganese and Nima Tuvali.
Speaker: Hello everyone and welcome to the Italian Football Podcast. I'm Carlo Garganese and now it's been a week since Italy were eliminated from the World Cup. The fallout continues. As we've discussed here already on the Italian Football Podcast, there's a number of reasons why Italy failed to make it to Qatar.
Speaker: But one of the deeper rooted problems in Italian football that has undoubtedly, in my opinion, played a key role in the Azuri failing to make it so two World Cups in a row, is the problem that Italy has when it comes to youth development and
Speaker: especially the lack of opportunities that Italian youngsters are getting in in Serie A and you know this is something that Roberto Mancini has has complained about and he's not been alone and while Italy has has been declining badly really with this production of young players other countries such as England
Speaker: have really stepped up their game. So today I wanted to have a little discussion on this issue with with two academy coaches in England, both of Italian descent, both Italian. And we have, first of all, we have Elio Salen, who is a good friend of the show, he's been on before, who is the youth development phase coach at Peterborough United, who are in the English Championship.
Speaker: and Daddio Seminario, who is the under -12s and under -13s phase lead academy coach at Cambridge United, who this season had a famous win over Newcastle. So first of all, Elio, Daddio, thank you so much for joining me. I want to really get to the bottom of what is going on in Italy and what Italy can learn from in England. So I'm sure you can both help me there. So first of all, how are you doing, guys?
Speaker: Yeah, I'm really well, thank you. Thanks for having me on, Carlo. It's good to be talking to you again. Unfortunate circumstances, but yeah, I'm sure we'll cover some interesting stuff.
Speaker: Yeah, I hope so. And welcome, Daddy, as well. Thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thank you for the invitation. Really pleasure to be here today. Okay, great. All right. So, so to start with, I'll come to you, Elio. Right, right now, there are only three teenagers playing regular football in in Serie A, and only one of these is Italian, Destiny or Dogi, who plays for Udenessa.
Speaker: um in addition to that some some i saw some figures the other day but celia is the ninth worst league in the world when it comes to the amount of minutes given to under 21 players so just want to get your initial reaction first about you know what when you hear these stats what what goes through your mind unfortunately i'm not surprised i don't think i don't think any of us are surprised um you know in in italy you're still young when you're 30 so
Speaker: I don't think they have the patience for young players. I really don't. I think it is. It can be. It can be that simple, you know, and it's easy for me to to reference you there because you know that they're the team I follow and.
Speaker: You go back to the start of the season and you hear Legri talking about Kiesa like he's 17, 18 years old and you know he's 23, 24. He's an established professional, established CDR player with experience. You know and you go a little bit further and you watch the documentary and it's got a tone of how they almost don't trust the young players with the same responsibility as they do the others.
Speaker: So it doesn't surprise me at all that there's limited numbers of young players at that age playing in Serie A. I think it's not so much for me at the 18, 19 age. I don't think that's the case across Europe that there'll be loads of players at that age playing in the top league. But once they start to enter 20, 21, 22,
Speaker: We don't, we still don't see them playing regularly. And that's where I have a little bit more of an issue with it. These guys at this age should be established to play in Inceria. And I don't see the reason why, why they're not. Um, because you can't tell me that there's, there's better players playing for. So let me down and, and you can't tell me these guys, these guys that they bring in are better than the young players that we have in Italy. I don't believe that's true.
Speaker: OK, and Daddy, you came to England just over a decade ago to cope, so you know how the Italian system works very well. Is it? Is it a problem of a lack of opportunities that we have so few youngsters playing in in Serie A? Is it that they are not good enough because they're not being coached properly? Is the pathway to first team football not correct? Is it a bit of everything? I mean, what what is the reason why you think that there's so few youngsters playing?
Speaker: In my opinion there are lack of opportunities and this is connected perhaps with our culture because there is lack of patience in the first team environment and sometimes is the fault of who runs the club because if a manager keeps losing games in a short
Speaker: period of time he will lose his job so to play a youngster straight away is a risk but a risk for the youngster but it's also a risk for the manager because as I said before if lose games is out and we know historically that in Italy managers lose their job quite easily and we got some very chairmans with a strong character
Speaker: They don't hesitate to change managers within their club. For example, Zamparini, when he was a Palermo, Venezia used to suck managers every month. So in one hand, we understand the manager has to win the game. And unfortunately, perhaps a cost of risking to play in a youngster.
Speaker: I also think there is a lack of investment in youth. So, for instance, now we have the under 23 potentially then can play in CvHG and the only club they embrace these opportunities are is Uintas. So what about all the other clubs? Because I personally think is a brilliant
Speaker: a pathway to the first team, having an under -23 playing professional football in a real environment, in real stadiums, with a little bit more pressure, and playing against men, where he's brilliant. I think Fagioli is one of the players now coming through the under -23, potentially going to Juventus first team. And that's also, as you mentioned before, his static culture, where the old player is preferred,
Speaker: but it's linked to the manager pressure. If I'm a manager and I need to win at all costs the next four games, I will play somewhat with more speed and guarantee me some performances rather than having the risk to take. A few players in Italy are good enough.
Speaker: It's not just in this era, it's our history. We didn't win four World Cups and two European Championships by chance. We won these titles, we're good players, and I think also there is a strange statistic in the 90s, which I believe was the best Italy ever. We didn't win.
Speaker: Historically, we have good players. And as I mentioned before, the pathway from the youth team to the first team is quite decent because the Primavera league, which is the equivalent of the youth team league in England, is well run, in my opinion, is well competitive.
Speaker: played in proper stadiums at times, you know, lower level stadiums. And the atmosphere is quite real. Football is not playing a training ground with 20 people watching. It's a proper, there are proper games there. And as I said, if more clubs embrace the under -23 options, I believe Italian football can flourish again.
Speaker: So again, it's a lack of opportunities because of no culture and organizations at the same time.
Speaker: OK, we'll come to the pathway after. I've got a question on that about the loan system that I want to discuss. But just just just to come back to you on the point about, you know, you're saying that some managers will feel under pressure. They might get the sack if they play youngsters. You know, some teams will be going for, say, a Champions League play. Some teams will try to be brought in relegation. They don't want to risk. But I mean, that's the same in in all leagues, really, isn't it? If you think about it, I mean, you know, in England, I mean, all all countries, all teams in all leagues will have this
Speaker: this same pressure so you know why is it in Italy is it even more in Italy or do you think more because it's a lack of
Speaker: of understanding the process. They want the outcome rather than focus on the process. And Barcelona nowadays, you know, they went out to the Champions League for reasons around the Europa League, and there is a project. And this project might take 12, 24 months. So I believe the board is willing to wait for that. In Italy, I'm not saying everyone is like that, because Atalanda, for instance,
Speaker: I think we've lost Daniel there for the moment. I was just going to add to what you were saying. I think it's part of the mentality thing in terms of we like safety.
Speaker: Italians like safety and I think, Daddy, I mentioned it a couple of minutes ago in terms of the way clubs have run and the people that oversee the projects of that club, if you like, is so volatile.
Speaker: and I think we'll probably touch on this later, in terms of the loan system, but there's no continuity with any clubs in CDB as well. I'm a bit generalising there in saying any clubs, but the majority of them, and I think it is a safety. If we hire a new manager, who have I worked with before that?
Speaker: that I can take, that I know is a saidy ad robot, if you like. And he's been there, he's seen it, he's done it all before. And I know there's an element of that in all football. I get that managers allow players that they feel more secure with. I get that, but there's got to be a little bit more open -mindedness in terms of what something different that we can bring.
Speaker: Yeah, no, for sure. We'll try and get Dario back because I'm going to ask him a question about how the youngsters are actually coached in Italy and whether it's the correct kind of coaching. But we'll come back to you first, Dario. So I wanted to know, like, what is the approach and some of the key facets to youth coaching that we have in English academies? Because
Speaker: I mean, I remember in the 1990s, I was a youth team player at Lewton South as a teenager, until I was about 15. And when I look back now, at that coaching, I mean, I know it's come back a while, but
Speaker: I can't believe England produced any players. And losing time is actually one of the better academies at the time, believe it or not, in English football. It produced quite a few decent youngsters back then. But now, if I look at when England failed to qualify for Euro 2008,
Speaker: And they really revolutionized their youth academies. They built the St. James, not St. James's Park, St. George's Park, St. George's Park. And since then, we have to be honest, England's production of youth players is, I mean, there's just so many that are coming through at all age levels, and you'll see it firsthand. So, I mean, what is it that England changed? What is it they're doing so well? I mean, you do it yourself.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I'd go as far as to say, I think they almost changed everything. You know, if you go back to the early 2010s when they
Speaker: when the Premier League implemented alongside the FA, the EPPP, so the Elite Player Performance Program. And then not too long after that, England themselves, the FA implemented their England DNA. And what does an England player look like? What does an England team look like individually, collectively, in different phases of the game? And I think with the EPPP, the investment that came with it was
Speaker: was fantastic really. And it really developed the infrastructure that gave many clubs in this country a platform to succeed. It wasn't just investment in players. It wasn't just investment in facilities. It was coaches. It was education. It was psychology. And they're in a position now where it's almost harder for them to fail in terms of developing players. As long as you've got the right elements, they've got unlimited resource.
Speaker: And there's a continuity between what the English DNA looks like and how a lot of clubs develop their players. Now obviously every club will have their own way of doing it and that's right because ultimately they spend 90 % of their time at clubs and they're developing players for their own first team. So each club will have their own little way of wanting to do players.
Speaker: But if you look at the players that have come through in recent years, you can see similarities in them in terms of their technical qualities, their versatility in positioning their physical attributes, their awareness of the game and those kinds of things. And I think it was
Speaker: It's geared towards the top academies being able to get hold of the best players. Now, the system isn't flawless, but the Premier League would argue that it works. The category one academies develop players on a regular basis that can play in the Premier League, in the championship, and
Speaker: And it's not a surprise. And like I said, they have the opportunity now because of the Premier League money as well, which has helped them. They can go and get the best players around the country pretty much whenever they like.
Speaker: automatically it's put in the best with the best in the best environment. And does it make it harder for some clubs? Absolutely it does. But like I said, they would argue that the system works. So, you know, they really went back to the drawing board of it and they come up with these plans and
Speaker: And like I said, it's working, it's working, but the investment in the infrastructure and in everything around it was pivotal to that and wanting to have homegrown players or more homegrown players available to play at international level, play at top clubs, it's there. And there's things along the way that have undoubtedly helped them. Like I said, the Premier League money, they've benefited from, and perhaps something that we haven't benefited from yet in Italy, but
Speaker: if you look at the younger age groups in the national team, you know, in terms of the migration and the heritage from different countries, I think that's massive. And you look at countries around Europe who have already benefited from that and England undoubtedly have benefited from that. And once you chuck those elements into all the other stuff that they planned and they've built towards, you go, you know, it's almost a perfect
Speaker: perfect remedy for everything to work. Yeah, no, I think that's definitely the funding. Absolutely. Like Daddy, I said before, I mean, there's so much money in England, English football, now the Premier League, that allows the, that will allow the academies to have the best facilities, the best coaches, the best nutrition, the best recovery, you know, everything. And I guess you put that all together. It's a perfect, perfect,
Speaker: It's incredible to go to some of these clubs and see the resource that they've got. The amount of staff that they can call upon at any given minute to help a player in any way that they need it. It's unbelievable really and it just gives them an ideal environment to develop players. And if they don't develop players,
Speaker: then they're failing because they've got everything that they need. They've got everything they need. You know, these top clubs who take the best players, like I said, they'll even take the best coaches, the best youth coaches in academies. They'll go around the country and go, right, we want him because he can do this and we'll take him. So, you know, it's, it's ideal. It really is ideal. It's just one final question on this. And I want to come to Dario and ask how they do it in Italy in terms of the coaching. Is there a specific
Speaker: What kind of things do they specifically try and coach into the youngsters in England? Because we're not, again, going back to when I was a player at Luton, I mean it was the English youth systems, they used to get laughed at for being kick and rush.
Speaker: like some of the stuff that I mean I got released when I was 15 years old and because and I quote I was told I'm too small that's what I was told I'm too small and I was and I'll say it myself technically I was the best player in the whole academy technically but I was small you know I wasn't you know the big players that got picked were the big big six footers that were stronger they were better in the air they were more physical you know I mean it seems to me that now England's gone completely the other way now I mean
Speaker: What kind of player do they try and coach, try and mould and create? I think what they've done really well is caught the trend of modern football and seen ahead of it, if you like, and gone what are players going to look like in the future and how do we develop that.
Speaker: I think, like I said, each club will do stuff differently in order to mould players for their team. But as I mentioned before, there's a lot of similarities between the players that have come through. You know, you're talking about them being able to dominate situations 1v1, which is really key. And you'll see a lot of emphasis on that. You'll see a lot of emphasis on
Speaker: possession and positional play in terms of being able to maintain the ball for longer periods of the game. You'll see emphasis on intensity in terms of pressing and being able to press high at the pitch or being able to counter press and win the ball back quickly. And I think they've just
Speaker: They've just created an environment that they can go. Players can handle multiple situations of the game and be able to face them comfortably. And like I said, with the resources that they've got, they're almost creating universal players now that you can go right. Well, he's comfortable to play out on the left. He's comfortable to play out on the right. You can play through the center of the pitch. He can play deeper in the pitch if he wants. And obviously there is more specific players than that, but
Speaker: You look at those, they look at some of the players in England that they've got now, for example, you know, you've got a Trent, who's a right back, but he's a playmaker. He could play, he could play in cent midfield if he wanted, you know, you go, you, like I said, a Sancho, for example, he could play left, right, centrally. Bellingham can play pretty much every midfield role. He can play as a holding midfielder, number six, number eight, box to box. He seems to, they seem to be multifunctional, like you say.
Speaker: Yeah, and I just think there's been a real emphasis on being proactive and being dominant and wanting to take control of the game in every phase of it. And I think the coaching has been centered around that. And like I said, the best players play with the best players and play against the best players for as often as they can make that happen. And that is undoubtedly beneficial for them because they're going to get stretched for as long as they're in an academy system.
Speaker: Okay, well let's come back to you now Dalio, we've got him back. So we've discussed there a little bit about how the English youth academies do things and why it's been so successful at the moment.
Speaker: Go into Italy because you'll understand the system very well there. Some of the people I've spoken to, there has been some complaints that there's still a bit of too much of an emphasis in Italian youth coaching on tactics, the obsession of winning, rather than so much on development.
Speaker: technical skills, the modern skills that Elio is talking about that. I mean, is that a fair assessment or is it over exaggerated? I mean, are the youngsters being coached correctly, do you think, in Italy? Yeah, I think it's a fair assessment and I believe in
Speaker: In Italy, the standard of coaching is good. In my opinion, it's about find the right balance. I will say I personally believe that there is nothing wrong with coaching tactics because that's the game of football. So tactics allow the players to learn, acknowledge of the game and make decision making decision and develop the decision making process.
Speaker: So again, if it's obsessive tactics, and then you will kill the players development because of the tactics, that's wrong. So as I said before in Italy, find the right balance when you coach the tactics and allow the players to acquire knowledge, but more importantly, to help with the decision making process so the players understand why. And the tactics doesn't always, should aim always to win the game, but to coach part of the game, so the players trying to learn.
Speaker: In regards to the mental side, I think the psychology is quite essential in football. It is important to understand which attributes you want to develop. You want to be smart and waste time and dive to win the game and slow the game and kill the intensity or be more resilient and have the ability to be adaptable to situations. Again, the mental side is important to be coached.
Speaker: It's about finding the right balance and the right attributes to all the players. In Italy, yes, if you want to win, you slow the game, kick the ball out, you pretend the cramp. So situations like that, which this is more for men's football, not for young players. And winning, similar, I don't think anyone that plays football in any country, in any part of the world wants to play too loose.
Speaker: And winning is an outcome. And again, it's about understanding the process and develop the place in that process to win the game by ensuring we develop the place. Again, find the right balance, for me, is very important. But I wouldn't say in Italy everything they do is wrong. There are some very good ideas, some very good coaches there. And again, it's about finding the right balance. In terms of skills,
Speaker: there is a trend still I can hear and see by Italian methodology so you know they do lots of physical drills separate and then they do technical drills which I don't want to say they are out of the date but nowadays we know that
Speaker: having game -based sessions where the intensities are, you can develop physical attributes, the technical attributes within a game environment rather than having half an hour streaming conditioning session and half an hour passing drill and oppose. So that is also what makes Think
Speaker: slower. It's easy to blame the coaches in the clubs but my biggest criticism is to the Italian FA because the coaching courses are B license, B license, A license, pro license. There is little as far as you know
Speaker: especially the courses for young coaches like the advanced youth award the youth award in England which are making the coaches specializing in youth development rather than doing a B license and A license which is tactics and aim to win a game of football.
Speaker: So that links to what I was saying about the introduction of the EPPP and the way it was changed in terms of the coaching courses, introducing things like the youth modules where it wasn't just aimed at professional
Speaker: coaches if you want to say professional coaches it was aimed at all levels so you know you're talking about how to create a positive environment for young players what kind of exercises practices can they do at those young ages that can perhaps put them in a position to develop to going into an academy and you know they thought about it at all layers and I think
Speaker: mentioned the word balance and that's absolutely key and if you look at Italy's players now in the senior squad
Speaker: Italy create a lot of robots, I think. And I think that's probably because of that heavy focus on the things that you've mentioned in the way Dario said that they have the training. Chiesa is an outlier. How many chiesas do we see? We don't. We don't have plays that beat, you said, the one -on -ones. We don't have plays that eliminate their opponent, do we? You know, spin -off solar, chiesa.
Speaker: probably it's been as well as the only full back of the of these of these typing in Italy really in terms of being an Italian fullback and you know he didn't start in that position and a lot of full backs don't end up don't start as a as a fullback but if you look at the rest of them you know you go in
Speaker: they're all so similar if you like i know they'll have different traits but even in midfield players and don't get me wrong italy are brilliant midfield players i'm not criticizing their midfield players but is there loads of variety between tonali locatelli pellegrini
Speaker: Are they massively different? I would argue probably not, but they are excellent football players. More to the point, it was about, where's the next Chiesa? How many Chiesas do we develop? And I would say they don't, because they haven't got the patience for him. It was like when he first came to UVA, everyone was questioning, how is he going to deal with the game tactically and all this kind of stuff? Just let Chiesa be Chiesa. And they won't, because they haven't got the patience for him. They haven't.
Speaker: No, no, absolutely. No, I totally agree. And do you think daddy or that its lead needs to revolutionize its youth Academy? I mean, does it need to make big changes to their system? Like we said, like England, when you when you were off the call, we said how England in 2008.
Speaker: after England failed to qualify for Euro 2008, they completely changed everything with their youth academies. Germany did the same after they were struggling in 2000 and then France did it going a lot further back in 1988 when they built Clairefontaine Academy. Do they need to do something as big as that or do they just need to make small changes, do you think?
Speaker: not revolutionized but modernized. So put some updates on the on the methodology and in the whole approach to youth football. I remember many years ago Lee Piseid if you like winning stay away from youth academies. If you like developing players
Speaker: stay in the youth system, because Lippi was, I believe, a talent, the youth team manager, so his first job, and because he was obsessed with winning, and then he decided to go and see the Chidua back in the days to start to work in men's football and win games. So again, modernized, so understand the profile of the coach, they can work with young players and help the players to develop.
Speaker: but in Italy we have a bad habit in my opinion because we have let's say we miss the World Cup and then Manchini won the Euro so the fact Manchini won cleared everything. Back in 2006 I think in Italy they had the same problems in the last 20 years it's not because we lost against Manchidan. They said 20 years
Speaker: where we stuck in our way is no more than many more and 2006 won the world cup happy days and then we had another long day i would say decade of no winning and then we won the euro everything is fine now we lost we're not going to work up
Speaker: but i doubt things will change but i hope that you know with the science now there is so many researches universities are doing lots of researches about coaching the science of coaching our players develop so
Speaker: My opinion, there are three things that Italy needs to really modernize. It's the focus on individuals. We're not making teams like under 12s, under 13s, 15s, 16s, 17s. Focus on the individual that needs to know how to play in a team. There is an interview, for instance, Mancini said, Zagnolo needs to learn how to play with the others. But he's brilliant. He's a brilliant individual.
Speaker: has been developed. Now let's help him to play in a team, but we need to make sure we don't lose the focus to the individual, to the variety of individuals, upskill coaches, because the only way you can get knowledge of youth development in Italy is by going to university. If you study sports science, then you get the knowledge and all the techniques
Speaker: But not everyone can go to unit, so we need to upskill all the coaches at the old levels. As you mentioned before. And do not underestimate the use of technology. Do we do enough clips and match analysis and not we're talking about kids or young players as so important to see yourself playing and understand how you move? Why you cannot use your left foot? What type of passes you can make? And I think the technology still a little bit backwards within the football academy field.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Okay. I want to move on to the loan system now. We talked a little bit before about the pathway to first team football. Now, in Italy, the approach is that youngsters should, in Max Allegri's words, I'm going to quote in here, serve their apprenticeship in so for a cellular team like Juventus youngsters from from Juventus would have to serve their apprenticeship in cellular chi.
Speaker: then if they do well there then they maybe move up the next season alone at Serie B and then to Serie A lower table team. You know, what do you think of that approach? Is that outdated? Is that the right way for a player? I know there's different levels, you know, but for a player from Juventus, for example, like Fagioli, for example, or like the new, what's his name, the new under -19 start in Meretti.
Speaker: Yeah, what's the correct pathway for these kind of patients? I mean, should they be going down to the cellular cheese? Does that really help their development, Elio?
Speaker: I think it's a difficult one. I think that I mentioned something about individuals and you have to know what's best for that individual player at that time in his career and what's going to suit him best in order to help his development. I think they have to have clarity around why they're sending these players to certain clubs. Now I could get
Speaker: You know, I mentioned before that there's better players that you young Italy players than some of the players that are playing in Serie A. And I understand from some of the clubs in the bottom of Serie A, they might not want to take a player from Milan or Juve or Romain alone because they'll be thinking, why should I develop your player? I get that. I do get that. And I think it also links to something that we'll probably go on to is. Well, and I just mentioned about why, why do you send the players there?
Speaker: There has to be an identity around, I'm going to send him to this club because they do these things a certain way, which falls in line with my club. And it's going to help this player develop towards my first team. So you mentioned for jolly, why I said, I know he's playing criminals at the top of said he'd be fine. Why has he gone there? Why is someone else gone to this other club? Why someone else gone to this other club? I don't, and I mentioned it earlier as well.
Speaker: The situation in Italy with managers and clubs is so volatile. You know, you send a player to said he be. He might be in a team that are in the playoffs this season. But you can't rely on that club to be in the same situation next season. There might be bottom of the league next season. So again, it goes back to what I said. Why are you sending these players to these clubs? You need to understand why they go in there. What's going to help their development? How they going to? How is that going to benefit?
Speaker: you as a club and him as the individual player, I've got no problem with the loan system in terms of sending players out to get experience, but they've got to play and it's got to be at the right place in the right environment with the right challenge. You know, we ditch the colour ownership system.
Speaker: which was, well, flaky at best, but at least you could argue for the clubs that co -owned players, if they improved that player, there was some financial reward in it for them, which I get that as well. There isn't that reward for players, for clubs, sorry, in this situation.
Speaker: So I think it's a really tough question, I think it's a really tough situation to answer and I think it links to so many other things that unfortunately I don't have the awareness of but what I see from outside, I don't see it's there.
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's a very good point understanding why and they prefer the player is going to go alone in the lower leagues. So I'll give you a fresh example, which has been treated for this discussion is I come from Catania, which is in Sicily and they currently are playing series. They're financially basically bankrupt. So there is no expectations. They're not. They don't have any aim apart to make sure they avoid the relegation.
Speaker: and there is no many fans. On a bright days, Catania has 25 ,000 spectators, very high expectations, because it's a big club, used to play in Serie A for many years. I think Padua sent Luca Moro along to Catania, he's a 19 -year -old striker.
Speaker: which has scored more than 25 goals. And now he's in Italy under 20 and has been brought to by social. So if I think about more. If Katania was in a better financial situations and the club wanted to win city chief to go to city B, I don't believe more would have been able to play to Katania because the first mistake or the first penalty was missing. It would have been booed and it would have been psychologically destroyed so.
Speaker: Yeah, I was mentioning about more in the right environment or the right lab for the environment situation because Catania normally is a very demanding environment. They normally have 25 ,000 spectators and their expectations are really high. So perhaps for a 19 years old, if psychologically it's not ready to embrace the challenge, it might be a hard step. On the other hand, he has been fortunate because this season in the environment is completely different.
Speaker: Again, it's back to my previous point, when the culture has to change to allow youngsters to express themselves, because there cannot be sometimes immediate able to perform the full potential. Yeah, no, no, absolutely. Okay, right. Question that I really want to ask both of you about, I'll start with you, Elio. It's something you brought up just a minute ago about when you send the player out on loan, you need to have it have in mind, you know, the identity of the club.
Speaker: that it helps them to then maybe come back and fit into their own team. So I wanted to ask, do you think it is beneficial? I mean, and also, I mean, please tell me what is the case in Italy in the moment, probably Dario can answer this. When you go through the age groups in Italy under 8s, under 9s, under 10s, under 11s, under 12s,
Speaker: all the way up to Primavera level in the senior team. Do these different age groups all play the same kind of football, the same formation? Do they have the same philosophy? Or is it every coach, the under -8 coach says, oh, I want to play 4 -4 -2? The under -9 coach will say, OK, I want to play 3 -5 -2. The under -10 coach, I want to play Guardiola kind of football. And then the under -13 coach says, oh, I want to play a Legley football.
Speaker: Is there any kind of system put in place that this is how this is what the identity is going to be because
Speaker: you know, they surely can't help the player develop if they're changing the style and the formation and the type of football. So, let me come to you first, Daniel. Is there any consistency through the age groups in Italy of the type of football that they play? As far as I know, I think every age group has got the head coach, the assistant coach, and it's run like a team rather than an academy.
Speaker: And and I think the coach has the freedom to choose the way the style of play you wish to play. Obviously it needs to be able to justify why is playing set the style? What's the benefit? The technical benefits of playing certain style? I don't as far as I know. I don't know any club that plays the all the same style of play across all the edge groups. The only one I picked was I think last season I watched at the land. You've you've primavera game against
Speaker: and I could see Apalanda playing exactly the same style the first team so perhaps the Primavera the youth team and the first team have a similarity but I'm not sure about the younger ages. I read a story this morning actually funnily enough that blessing the new Genoa coach is his now bringing the Red Bull
Speaker: model through all the youth teams so he wants to every single youth team to play the same football at Genoa from the start which and I it's funny that I saw that this morning before we had our discussion because in my opinion that's exactly how things should be and that's what I wanted to ask you Eddie I mean do you think it's beneficial for clubs to create an identity that you know is imprinted in every age group for example I mean Barcelona and Renee are probably the two best examples through
Speaker: the last decades you know they always play the same 4 -3 -3 formation the style of football to keep the ball you know from under rates to senior and in my opinion that makes it easier for you know a player to make the step up in age groups but then make the step up to the senior team because they already know what what they've got to do they've just got to put it into a different level
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's imperative and I've banged on about this identity theme a lot in this conversation that we've had and a lot in general. I think, you know, it's no surprise that we just mentioned Atalanta and if you could pick one team in Italy in the last few years who have had a number of their own players play in Serie A, it's Atalanta.
Speaker: because there's continuity there. And, you know, you mentioned Ajax and Barcelona are the two biggest examples. They just have consistencies and obviously they have to change and adapt along the way, but they have some fundamental principles that they don't go against and they know what their players have to look like in order to get them to get them through the club. And you can't tell me what a Juventus are.
Speaker: You can't tell me what a Milan are. You can't tell me what a Latio are. You can't tell me what these football clubs, how they play, what their identity is. Of course, they have a way of playing, but it could change year on year. You know, you very prime example, last three years, they've had three different coaches have played completely the different way.
Speaker: and you know you hear people going about now we need to we need to get rid of Manchini why we did this to Prandali in 2014 because they went out the group stage at the World Cup so you're going to get rid of a manager and then what you bring someone else in who will do something completely different potentially so all of a sudden everything that you've built towards is gone
Speaker: So there has to be these principles in place for these football clubs, because if not, you're just going to keep repeating these highs and lows. And like Dalia has mentioned earlier, of course, Italy have good players. You don't win World Cups and European championships without it. But domestically, Serie A isn't very strong. It's a really enjoyable league, but it's not very strong.
Speaker: They haven't won the Champions League in 10 years. They haven't won a European club trophy in 10 years. That's not acceptable. 12 years actually. Exactly, 12 years. It's not acceptable and it's no surprise that you look at a city who have a defined way of playing throughout the club and they've got a hat full of players that could step up and play in the Premier League probably at this moment.
Speaker: You know, I'll give a personal example of when to play Liverpool a few weeks ago with, with, uh, and the fourteens. Their team played exactly the same way as you'd expect a clock team to do. They press, they win the ball back and they're gone. They're running and they're playing on the counter attack and you're like, well, what's going on here? So they're, they're matching players up for if to be ready for the, for the future. And Italy just doesn't have that. The clubs just don't have that.
Speaker: the national team don't have that, the FA don't have that. I think Manchini has tried, I think Manchini, just to come back to you, I do think Manchini has tried to implement a more modern, progressive, not just the style of football, but the mentality and the identity, the crazy things, that some of the crazy things, this is what's wound me up the most about Allegro, even more than his football season.
Speaker: It's just his mentality. Some of the things he says, you know, like you said, treating Kiesa like he's an 18 year old, talking about how, you know, the team needs to be more mentally stronger rather than talking about playing better football, talking about, you know, serving their apprenticeship instead of, you know, just the whole mentality. I think that it's not trusting the youth players, you know, for example, given Meretti one minute against Solenitana, you know, this whole identity, this is, I think Mancini's got it the right idea.
Speaker: But you can't do it himself. You can't do it himself. He needs the support of everyone. I absolutely agree and that's why I can't make any sense of the thought that he should have been sacked. Is it a disaster? Absolutely it is. But you look at the bigger picture and if I ask either of you, what does a Portuguese player look like? What does a Portuguese team look like?
Speaker: at a national level. We could give a generic response to what that would be like. The same with Germany, the same with Spain, the same now with England, the same with France. You say to me, what's an Italy team going to look like in two years at national level? I'm going to go, could be anything. It could be anything.
Speaker: And the same with the clubs. The same with the clubs. They could be anything. Whereas now you can go, say Guardiola for some reason, whatever, left Man City today. They've got a blueprint. They've got an understanding of what they have to do. The same with the Liverpool. The same with the Chelsea. The same with the majority of the clubs in the Premier League. And you know, it just isn't there. It just isn't there for me.
Speaker: So we need to create an identity. What would you like daddy or what do you think our identity should be? Because I saw it's been a big debate. I saw Fabio Coppello was complaining the other day saying that Italy's try to play have an identity too much like Guadiolo's identity of keeping the board. Even though I don't particularly agree with that. I think the press in.
Speaker: of Guardiola's equally as important as the ball possession and ball retention, but anyway he thinks we should go more for the German model of the counter -pressing, the Geggenpressen as they call it. I mean do you think, what do you think Italy's idea, if we are going to create more of our own identity again, what should it be? Like what type of football should we be going for?
Speaker: I think the first step is to ever clear the player profile of, have a player profile in each position in a variation of player profile, as I said at the beginning, variation of midfield is rather than an identical place.
Speaker: So I think in my opinion this is the first step, the player profile and then establish your identity. Second, your identity needs to be matched, the player's ability to execute certain actions, otherwise it will stay where it is. So we need to clearly understand first how to develop a certain player profile.
Speaker: And then we can work in the identity. And I still think we are not there yet in the national team. In general, I think it's a more random process. When a player comes through the system, he just came through. He's a random. He's a random. And then sometimes we have a
Speaker: two, three, four years we wouldn't see a player and then all of a sudden we go free for players coming through. It's all randomized rather than having clear ideas on player's profile identity and then having some players basically through the system.
Speaker: And I think that the young national teams are doing well in recent years. They've been doing well. They've been performing well. The under nine teams have done well this week. I know it's a spot. If you look from 2015 upwards, there's been success in terms of progression in tournaments and things like that. But where are these players? And that's the thing. We just don't know where they're going to be, if they're going to be anywhere.
Speaker: that's it's fine having the players there but if they don't get if they don't get the opportunity and let Italy have some fundamentals and some stereotypes if you like that they've always been good at
Speaker: And they're always likely to be good at because of the system. But how do you go on around that? So how do you how do you build on their resilience and their mentality? And, you know, those games where they win and you go either only Italy could win those games. You know, there is characteristics in Italians that has served them really well and will continue to serve them well.
Speaker: I'm glad you brought that up earlier because I was going to say do you think these characteristics and stereotypes to which Italy have always been the best at and I would pick out too. I think Italy throughout history have always been the best offensively
Speaker: no doubt about it we've produced the best offenders more defenders world -class defenders than any other nation by a mile if you pick the probably if you pick the 10 best defenders of all time probably about seven of them would be Italian. Number two we're smarter than any other nation you know tactically we're smarter and even still now and we can talk all about the great youth coaches in England but
Speaker: I think an English manager actually hasn't won the Premier League since its inception 30 years ago, whereas Italy still produces bursty amazing person. So we got great brain still. So those two things, but I'm talking about the place here. Do you think that these qualities in the way that modern football has gone where it's become more about
Speaker: the physical qualities, the pressing, the intensity, let's say, do you think that that's kind of taken away what our strengths have been through the years? Because the fence is kind of, I don't want to say it's dead, but you can't defend like Italy have traditionally in the past, you know, backs of the world, like we saw against Holland, the Euro 2000, you know, only Italy could have done that, you know, you can't defend like that anymore. That's why a lot of people say that Allegra's football is outdated, because you can't play
Speaker: deep defence and then just try and counter it's that that football doesn't work at the moment it doesn't seem to be working anymore so do you think that Italy that kind of works against Italy as well? Yeah I think it does because I think it lends to this discussion that Italy in Italian football doesn't really know what it is anymore and you can look at the the centre backs that we've we've got now under Bonucci and Killini like
Speaker: who is it? There isn't another Bonucin killing and there isn't going to be but all of a sudden we've seen to have been caught between trying to do maybe develop something different but we've lost a little bit of what made us great and like Dario said it's very random and all of a sudden we've randomly produced lots of very good midfield players.
Speaker: So it almost seems like it's become, we've become generic because we don't know what direction to go in, whether to stay as Italy have already traditionally been with those things, with the mentality, with the resilience, with the tactics and the defending and in being that, or do we be a modern nation and try and play and go towards a modern football? And at the minute, it doesn't seem like we do
Speaker: we do either. And Mancini was fortunate in the sense that actually he was being, he's been able to bring the two of them together, perhaps through having people like Guncinkilini and the team, but having a little bit of a modern flavour in it with a spin of Sola Chiesa and Baralla, those kind of players.
Speaker: But it is a bit of a concern in terms of what happens next. Do we have to just fully go to a modern way, if you like, and how are we going to do that? And are we ready to do that? And do we have the players physically, the characteristics physically? That's always been my concern for the last years. Do we physically have the characteristics as a
Speaker: you know, as a people, Italian people, like we're not generally physically the best, you know, without wanting to get into all that kind of stuff. But you know, you know what I mean? I agree. And I think
Speaker: I can imagine the tendency for young players in Italy that if you do have those physical characteristics but technically you're not in a place of strength in terms of other players, I could imagine you're quite easily dismissed because I've used the word patience a few times. If you're willing to have patience with those players and put time into them and work on them technically,
Speaker: If they've got the physical attributes, you're into producing something that's really ready to play modern football. But if you haven't got the patience to do it, then you ain't going to get those players. And look, some of them you'll get there and some of them you won't. But yeah, the physical thing
Speaker: is a is a concern but I do just wonder and I don't know daddy if you can answer that question but or that that thought process of mine do do we have the patience for someone who maybe have the physical attributes but can't match it up technically but I don't know.
Speaker: Yeah, I think also the trend in Italy has changed recently in the recent seasons. If you think more more teams now are pressing high as visa swirl over on a Fiorentina at Alanda. So the idea actually I think that most of the managers now they are updated up becoming a little bit more modern in their defensive approach. I think one of the critic my personal critique is the way our referees run the game because in European football.
Speaker: referee let play more and the intensities you know stopped as much as in Italy and this is another criticism obviously we are discussing coaches and players but we need to remember that also the referee play a part in the in the development of a player unfortunately and
Speaker: And this is another thing we need to get better at. I think the standard referee will always produce great referees, you know, Colina or other referees able to ref and officiating finals or big events. But the standard again doesn't help for the referees. So many every touch down on the floor. Stop freaking.
Speaker: And that doesn't help the level of intensity. That's why when we go into our Italian clubs, playing the Champions League, the struggle for me was a little bit embarrassing. Personally, as a Milan fan, playing Milan against Liverpool beating and we still lose to one. I hope.
Speaker: That's and then I think that Milan, I didn't watch Milan quite regularly. Yes, the way Milan execute possession and auto position is a good good idea. But the intensity is not there and every time I watch a game is always I don't want to be so critical to referees. I don't want to be a fan here, but we need to modernize also our referees. And let the game flow a little bit more rather than stopping every 20 seconds.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a great point. That's a good point. I haven't thought of. Okay, well, just to finish off, obviously, it's not going to be at the World Cup. So now it's all about going forward towards Euro 2024. Qualifying doesn't actually start for a year, not till March next year. So we've got a whole year to prepare for that really give some yelps as a chance, hopefully, I mean,
Speaker: I'll start with you, Daddy O. What team would you like Manchini to go forward with ahead of Euro 2024? Do you have a... You don't have to give me the whole 11, but is there any certain players who think, right, I want to see him, those players, given the chance?
Speaker: develop. I don't have a list of players in my mind, but I literally wish that we got more Italian players playing the Champions League regularly. They will prepare you for the World Cup or European Championship, so it's not enough place. I think Donnarumma Berati took
Speaker: I think I would like to say, before thinking about much, 16, 18 Italian players regularly playing the Champions League and being in the knockout stage, they would be delighted. Okay, go ahead. And Elio, anyone that you want to say, Raspadore, Schemakta, these guys? I think there's a few obvious ones, you know, like Domeroma's obvious, Bastoni as well.
Speaker: you know, tonali, definitely for me, but a lot of variety as well. You can, you can stick by these players. Keyes are depending on how he comes back from, from injury. I think those five or six players have got to be the core of the team.
Speaker: but you know, the problems around it, what do we do at full back? You know, you've got players in the end of 21s like Balamova, for example, who's regularly playing for Caliura. I know that towards the bottom of Serie A, but, you know, for me, players like him need to be playing in a national team as well now. If he's playing in Serie A, he's a young player, then start playing him.
Speaker: And, you know, these players like Skamaka and Raspberry and even Zaneola to an extent, these guys need to be playing in the Champions League. Yeah, they should form pretty much the rest of Manchini's team going forward.
Speaker: With complete respect to Saswara, it's no good. It's different. It's completely different. And you want to push the levels. You want to push the boundaries of these players. They've got to be playing against the best players as often as possible in the best clubs. And they're not doing that at the minute. And we really need to
Speaker: to solve that issue. The players are there. That's part of the development, isn't it? You play for a Champions League team, you play for a top set of our team, as opposed to a Sasuola. I mean, look at the forwards Manchini had to pick from. Sasuola, Lazio, Caliavi,
Speaker: uh you know even Napoli let's say you know they're not top top european clubs you know so yeah it's such a contradiction because if you look at C Milan as go Ibrahimo each in Giro so why Skamaka for instance a potential our best striker future striker doesn't play for Milan
Speaker: And now Milan are now negotiating right now. I know speaking to people working on the deal for Divock Origi from Liverpool, who's a sixth choice player for Liverpool, 27, 28 years old. I mean, that doesn't help Italian football either.
Speaker: to be honest with you and he's not even like he's a good a great player he's all right he'll probably do a job instead yeah but you know so yeah that's part of the mentality thing as well. The front three for Sosuolo surely should play european football on a regular basis the front three for Sosuolo and they should have started if there were more experience in the gaming as a match Adonia.
Speaker: No. I think we need, I think also we haven't had the benefit of foreign influence in Italy either in terms of coaches. We haven't really, there hasn't been that benefit and we haven't risked losing our young players either because young players don't leave Italy and if they do, they don't really travel well.
Speaker: that there's two bits there for me that we've seen in other countries that we don't see in Italy still. We don't have foreign coaches at the top of the league that you've gone, wow, he's almost revolutionised a way of playing in Serie A. We've not seen before. We don't have these young players that leave Italy and go on to play well in a Bundesliga or in Portugal or somewhere like that. We don't have it. They don't leave
Speaker: And they don't travel well. So we're missing these things. And then like you said, that's all the players. They need to be playing at the top of city and they're not. But as long as Manchini moves away from some of the players that he finished that game with the other night, we'll see what happens. Yeah. Yeah, we sure will. We hope for a better time. Well, thank you guys so much. I really, really enjoyed that. It was fascinating. Really good to get your insight and
Speaker: Let's hope that some people in Italy listen to this and make some changes. We don't want to miss another World Cup. It's crazy. I was speaking to someone the other day. Can you imagine a youngster born in Italy at the age of, say,
Speaker: you know, say, let's say born in 2008. And they were maybe six years old in 2014. So they were a little bit too young to really understand that World Cup, they're going to miss the 2018 World Cup, they're going to miss 2022. But the time 2026 comes along, they'll be what 18 years old, they basically not seen a World Cup. So that can't be good either, can it for for developing young young footballers in Italy, because that's what inspires you as a kid, isn't it watching your team in the World Cup. So yeah,
Speaker: Yeah, sad. Okay, well, again, thank you so much. Just before we go, you can follow Elia on Twitter at at Elia Salerno 87. And daddy are also on Twitter at at daddy or seminary or before I let you guys anything else you guys want to promote? No, for me.
Speaker: No, I hope the next step is to speak to Spain, to Germany, to England. I hope the next, and then we'll see improvements. That's all I wish. Yeah, that would be fantastic. There was some links with you, a couple, two, three years ago, unfortunately didn't happen. Okay. Well, thanks everyone for listening. We will be back on Monday to review the Darby Titalia. Until then, Chag
