Transcript
Nate Day: Welcome to Adaptation, the book to movie podcast. I'm Nate. And I'm Chris. And we have a very special guest with us today.
Jay: Hey, I'm Jay.
Nate Day: Hey, this is Jay.
Jay: Hey, this is Jay.
Nate Day: Hi, Jay. Jay, thank you for joining us. are you doing today?
Jay: Good, doing great.
Nate Day: Today, we're talking about Rebecca, written by... hold Hold on. i think I think rapid fire, everybody takes a swing at it.
Nate Day: Okay. Can I, will you highlight it so I can read it? yeah Daphne du Maurier. Yeah. Daphne du Maurier. Oh, I didn't know we were doing accents.
Jay: Daphne du Moyer.
Nate Day: Oh, I'm the lamest one. Wait, is yours the correct one, Jay?
Jay: No, not at all I have no idea.
Nate Day: Oh.
Jay: I very intentionally did not look.
Nate Day: Oh, yes. Are you going to look right now? Yeah, I'll look. You keep talking. Okay. Yeah, Rebecca by Daphne something, adapted famously by Alfred Hitchcock and then later Ben Wheatley. But before we dive into that, Chris is going to tell us the pronunciation, i think.
Nate Day: This looks like, I actually, I think Jay was the closest, according to the IPA here.
Jay: Let's go.
Nate Day: to maurier oh oh Oh, I was the closest. You were the goodness gracious.
Jay: Let's go.
Nate Day: I was prepared for a lot of options, but not that one.
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: Well, eat your heart out. When is a a short O-7? Okay. French names. Yeah. In France. Jay, what have you been reading and and watching lately besides Rebecca?
Jay: Yeah, just before Rebecca, I finished a very thrilling nonfiction, The Death of Trotsky, which the plot to assassinate Stalin's greatest enemy.
Jay: i just got back from Mexico a couple months ago, and I had no idea that Trotsky finished his life in Mexico City and was friends with Diego and Frida.
Nate Day: Whoa.
Nate Day: Whoa.
Jay: and And then this book came out just shortly after.
Nate Day: Of course.
Jay: So it was a pretty fun a pretty fun read
Nate Day: Wow.
Nate Day: Wait, did you, did you go to the house, the plot with the cactus fence?
Jay: Lots.
Jay: No, no, did not make it all the way down, down there, but thought it was very interesting that he ended up in Mexico city.
Nate Day: Okay.
Nate Day: It's a ways out.
Jay: And i feel like I learned so much history while I was down there. i was like, Oh, this is also super interesting part of Mexico city. I would love to learn about. So that's what I read most recently.
Jay: and then I think devil wears Prada two is last movie I saw.
Nate Day: Oh yeah, that was a fun one.
Jay: which was aggressively fine, in my opinion. It's
Nate Day: incredible with it yeah incredible description I'm just glad that it wasn't yeah exactly I'm glad that it wasn't bad you know so many of these sequels that are coming twenty thirty years later like ruin the original almost for me and and this one yeah it was like a glass of room temp water you know I mean it's become like nearly a trope right Spider-Man did it the Matrix did it like what to reboot years later
Jay: great to see my friends, but yeah, sorry.
Jay: Yeah.
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: No, just for the second one to be garbage. Oh, fine. Yeah.
Jay: yeah
Nate Day: Oh, oh, garbage. Yeah. Yeah. Remember Matrix Reloaded? i Actually, one of my hot takes is i don't even like the first Matrix. Okay, you're wrong. Never mind. Cool. I've fallen asleep every time I've tried to watch that movie.
Nate Day: That's insane.
Nate Day: Good for you, dude. What a fun trip.
Jay: Yeah, it was a good time. Good time.
Nate Day: Yeah, sounds like it.
Jay: Saw the pyramids.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: So, yeah.
Nate Day: You know, the famous ancient city of Teotihuacan. Yeah, saw the pyramids.
Jay: Saw pyramids.
Nate Day: they're Still there.
Jay: Climbed up them.
Nate Day: how How about you, buddy? What have you been reading? Oh, I was just telling Nate about my blunder with my book club. We read Knight the Seven Kingdoms.
Nate Day: Have you read that yet, Jay?
Jay: Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yep.
Nate Day: And Nate had suggested the show So... so
Nate Day: we discussed it because I read the book before probably two or three episodes ago. And I mistook Nate and I discussing it for book club discussing it. So then when they pitched meeting like five days later, I panicked and thought I had not read the book yet, whatever the new book was.
Jay: Okay. Okay.
Nate Day: So I just scrolled through the discord, found the most recent book someone pitched, which was The Will of the Many. Something Eilington. I'll find it later.
Jay: James.
Nate Day: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jay: the
Nate Day: Thank you. Have you read them?
Jay: Yeah. Real good.
Nate Day: Smashed those 640 pages in four days.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: And then it turned out not to be the book club pick. And I just did that for no reason.
Jay: That's so, I mean, it is a great book. Like not, you didn't waste, you didn't waste any time reading it.
Nate Day: Phenomenal book. No, not mad at it at all. I honestly, I genuinely think a book to what is it? It's like the voice of the few or something.
Jay: strength of the view.
Nate Day: Yeah, I think that might be book one for my little road trip endeavor today.
Jay: Yep.
Jay: Yeah, great move.
Nate Day: Because the first one was phenomenal. Incredible writing. Very, very fun. Weird. The concept is this universe where the power is held by... Essentially, society is a pyramid scheme.
Jay: Mm-hmm.
Nate Day: Very Romanesque. They're all wearing togas. They have a Senate. But you... seed your will to those higher above.
Nate Day: So the higher up you get, the more of the plebs you have seeding their will to you. And it just makes you like super powerful and more focused and better. It's okay. Very good. Sounds like the real world right now.
Nate Day: I'm just saying. I'm just saying.
Jay: Yeah, it's it's turning turning subtext to text a little bit, is what...
Nate Day: Yeah, not wrong. Yeah. i would I would be surprised if we don't have an adaptation of that in the coming years. yeah I think that would make a phenomenal. That'd be cool.
Nate Day: Maybe not a movie, but a show for sure. Yeah.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: So that's what I've been reading. Cool. Let's see. Let me look. I'm a little behind on watches because I was out of town and then visually impaired. We're going to dig into that? or No, not here. okay I saw the movie Is God Is. Have you guys heard of this? It was based on a play by Aleshea Harris.
Nate Day: Aleshea Harris. Really interesting like revenge story if you get a chance to see it. I think it's one of the best movies I've seen this year.
Nate Day: Wow. And then just the other day, I saw this new horror movie obsession that everybody's talking about. I don't know if you guys have heard about this. I actually didn't like it that much. I didn't think it was that good, but I'm in the vast, vast minority. So I don't mean to not
Nate Day: endorse it. The trailers look sick. Yeah, I just I had a lot of issues with the writing. I don't really want to poop on something everybody's excited about here on the pod, but not my fave.
Nate Day: But yeah, and we were going to go see The Mandalorian last night, but we had more more fun offer come up. So we skipped it.
Jay: And based on what I've read about the movie, it's probably okay.
Nate Day: I'm not that sad. Yeah, I've heard that too.
Jay: It's going to be a it's gonna be an awesome watch on Disney Plus one day.
Nate Day: i What I keep hearing is that it looks like a Disney Plus movie. So I'm like, okay. That checks out.
Jay: Unfortunately.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Tell us a little bit about how this text came into your life and and what about it like sparked your interest to talk about it?
Jay: Yeah, the funny thing is I was trying to remember who it's that classic Goodreads thing where something shows up on your list and then you read it and you have no memory of who recommended it.
Nate Day: here
Nate Day: Yeah. Yes.
Jay: So I have no idea where this started from. I was very just intrigued by there's one edition that's like, oh, it's the greatest novel of the century. And I was like, well, I feel like I got to read.
Jay: I got to see what this is about.
Nate Day: Whoa. Yeah. Yeah.
Jay: And it is not up my alley Really at all. Like I really, I, I in high school read Jane Eyre, Weathering Heights, The Awakening, like I, like this kind of genre.
Jay: I don't love a lot of Gothic fiction. And I read Rebecca and I gasped out loud like four or five times as I was reading it.
Nate Day: Whoa. Wow.
Jay: It completely blew me away. And I wasn't even suggesting it for like the pod. Cause I didn't know really about the adaptations either. it was just one I read and I immediately was like, Chris needs to read this.
Nate Day: Sure.
Jay: I think he is going to love this.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: So that's where like that initial text went out. I was just like this book, it feels so fresh. It feels like you get, you know, 70 years of kind of human history, like not to improve, but like from where Jane Eyre was, from where Wuthering Heights was, it just feels very 20th century, but still taking a lot of those themes that were present and kind of some of the other Gothic literature.
Jay: I just was completely gobsmacked by it when I read it the first time.
Nate Day: Wow, that's cool. Is that sort of, without giving away too much, is that sort of how you felt as well? so So it's interesting. First of all, right off the bat, throwing the script out the window, Jay has already answered one of the questions I slotted in.
Nate Day: yeah So do you guys mind entirely unorthodoxly, based only on unorthodoxly?
Jay: Good enough.
Nate Day: Yeah. We're just going to start with one of our discussion questions, which we never do, because that is exactly what I was thinking. So Jay texted me. Okay. Same. I had no idea there was a film adaptation, but I looked it up immediately and i was like, wait, there there are films of this. i should just So I immediately texted Nate, was like, let's get Jay on the pod. This would be fun.
Nate Day: My very first, not very first, I think it was maybe... Actually, i know exactly where it is. Chapters four and five, when it is revealed that the first Mrs. de Winter has passed away in a grisly way and you're getting the gothic vibes.
Nate Day: I was like, Jay Weiler suggested this because you are historically not a spoopy fellow.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Spoopy?
Jay: Yeah, there's there's literally one scene, i don't even remember what happened, but when I was reading Jane Eyre in high school, there's one scene where I was like scared because I was like, this is not for me.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: I think, well, the other funny thing is I thought this was actually going to be a literal ghost story when I picked it up just because of how it is talked about.
Nate Day: Oh. Fair. Yeah.
Jay: I thought that like Rebecca's ghost was actually going to be present in the house very specifically and literally.
Nate Day: Yep.
Nate Day: One may argue she was, but okay, continue.
Jay: For sure, for sure. I have a hot take on that later if we get into that.
Nate Day: o Mm.
Jay: And so i i literally read it the first time thinking this is a real ghost story. And so it was very interesting to have it kind of doled out that first read that it's not a literal ghost story.
Nate Day: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nate Day: yeah
Jay: And so I think i my expectations of being very scared were high, and then there was no actual ghost. So I was able to kind of get through. But yeah, I agree with you, Chris.
Nate Day: i I just immediately was like, because j Jay famously is not a fan of that. Okay. Genre area. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I was just like, how is this like from Tucker would have made 15 times more sense to me as a wreck.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: You know what I mean?
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: Okay. So I'm glad that you, that you got into that. So before before we dive in, I just want to give a really quick rundown for those that have not read or seen it.
Nate Day: the Good idea. Yes, yes, yes.
Jay: Great idea.
Nate Day: Because we because we get kind of just talked about the part.
Jay: Great idea.
Nate Day: The movie follows a woman who I believe is unnamed. She is in the movies. Does she have a name? The new Mrs. de Winter
Jay: No, she does not have a name, famously.
Nate Day: Yeah, right.
Jay: are i Some fun facts about that.
Nate Day: Okay, cool.
Jay: She writes in the her original author's note that she didn't give the protagonist a name because she couldn't think of one. So she just started writing the book with no with no name.
Nate Day: I love that. That fucking rocks.
Jay: And then as she got writing in, she's like, well, now this is just a technique challenge for me.
Nate Day: Yeah. Hell That's cool.
Jay: And so she wrote the whole book with no name.
Nate Day: Good for her. That is cool. Oh, wow. I was feeling like I was just blanking on it. How did I not notice that? Well, I didn't. eat We'll talk about it later. Okay.
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: But anyway, the story follows this unnamed woman who... basically is on vacation, falls in love, marries a guy and, uh, moves in with the guy and every, everything, how would you say it? Like is very influenced by this guy's first wife who has died. Yes.
Nate Day: who is the titular Rebecca and how she, haunts proverbially this new new wife's life.
Nate Day: Now point of order she was not on vacation in Monte Carlo but they douche-tastically refer to it as Monty Oh, yeah.
Nate Day: Often. yeah that's right.
Jay: Oh, yeah.
Nate Day: Which, goodness, you can it's you can feel that scene.
Jay: Amazing. A
Nate Day: This wealthy dowager from New York going, oh, Monte is so boring this time of year. So she's working. She is a professional companion with wow
Nate Day: Van Hopper. Hopper.
Jay: hopper.
Nate Day: Yep, with Van Hopper.
Jay: Mm-hmm.
Nate Day: who's like the socialite piranha chasing down Mr. de Winter and then she flirts with him and they get married instead. Which is, that's not to be that's not to be rude to your synopsis.
Nate Day: I think that is critical in the storyline that she's there for that time's social norms.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. She was working for someone that was on vacation. She's a working girl. Yeah. With that, take it away, buddy. Yeah, good synopsis. I'm glad that you started with that.
Nate Day: published in 1938,
Nate Day: Has never gone out of print, which is astronomical.
Nate Day: So the edition that I marked on Goodreads came out in 2013. And so I spent the entire read thinking this was written...
Jay: I see.
Nate Day: A couple years ago. 16 years ago.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: And I was like, wow, this is this lady did her research.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Entirely incorrect.
Jay: Yeah. I
Nate Day: Entirely incorrect. Written in 38. We have a bad streak that we need to break. This is another gothic.
Jay: was thinking about that.
Nate Day: I don't know.
Jay: I was thinking about this.
Nate Day: Another Brit.
Jay: Yep.
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: Our next one's American. Finally. Some good American-made product.
Jay: Well, and I know, and and like, I thought she was French. Like, what is this?
Nate Day: Right?
Jay: what do you mean you're British? What do you mean?
Nate Day: Yep. Makes no sense. Makes no sense. And once I found out she was British, I thought, okay, this is a pen name. Nope. Family name. Du Du Maurier
Nate Day: Maurier Yep. I should have kept it up. That's canon now. Each time she comes up, we all have to try to pronounce it again. Both her parents were, her mom was an actress. Her dad was a actor and manager. I believe her grandfather was as well.
Nate Day: we've This is just a classic Nepo baby in the world of entertainment who wrote a phenomenal novel. And I can see that because it's so sort of melodramatic and soapy.
Jay: So,
Nate Day: I can totally see her being the child of performers. This would have been like seven or eight phenomenal seasons of Passions in like 1995.
Nate Day: first and foremost, I want your thoughts.
Nate Day: The first... I'm going to guess 12. twelve Well, when do they, when do they leave Monte Carlo in the movie? Very early. Okay. So Jay, for you, like chapters one through three, what is your vibe of her emotional, psychological state?
Jay: I think she is like desperate to be working any other job. I think that she hates her life. You know, she has no family. This is our only prospects.
Jay: It just feels like she is desperate to be anywhere else in the world is the vibe I get.
Nate Day: Mm-hmm. Yes. Okay. Nate? Yeah. Yeah. She's focused on working. Yeah. She's not there. I think that's why it's important that that you made that distinction. She's not in Monte Carlo to enjoy herself. No. She's there so Miss Van Hopper can enjoy herself. Honestly. Honestly. And what a twat. Yeah.
Nate Day: Yes. Okay. I just wanted to make sure that we were on the same page. Exact same vibe. She's like clearly not even clearly unhappy necessarily.
Nate Day: It's that weird unhappy of like a I want to do a good job and Van Hopper is such a jerk. complacency almost. Yeah. Yeah. But to me there's an evident drive there that I think is what makes the turn so good.
Nate Day: 24 chapters later. Right.
Jay: yeah so
Nate Day: That was all to set up what is undoubtedly no longer a fun aside. She's sitting there. Von Hopper is obviously just a jerk.
Nate Day: Starts chatting with Mr. De Winter, gets upbraided for talking too much in that first meeting in which she didn't speak at all. And then Von Hopper's sick.
Nate Day: She's having lunch with De Winter alone. And like cannot tell if he's stoked to see her, if she's just amusement, a better use of his time than sitting alone, essentially. And she tries to ask what he's thinking about. And he says, I'm thinking about who's going to be bowling for Surrey today against Middlesex.
Nate Day: And it wasn't against Middlesex. I think it was against Hertfordshire. But as I got to that part of the audio book, I was watching Surrey Cricket.
Jay: Oh, that's very funny.
Nate Day: And i I literally laughed out loud and I was like, this is this is not something anyone should be laughing out loud at.
Jay: okay
Nate Day: But it felt it felt crazy to have that connection to the book 100 years on. Okay, the actual book, not Cricket. We have this weird juxtaposition of a clearly deeply unpleasant Mr. De Winter.
Nate Day: we Okay. yeah Maxim. Maxim.
Jay: Maxim.
Nate Day: this feels like a crass description, so I would appreciate assistance.
Nate Day: This, this offer of marriage three weeks on, he just seems so unhappy and so unpleasant.
Nate Day: It obviously later is more revealed, but I think part of the brilliance of the writing of this book is the agonizingly slow pace. And I don't know how they translated that to screen.
Nate Day: Similarly. It's a very slow burn, I would say. I mean,
Nate Day: The passage of time is like more or less its own character in in the exposition of this story.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: So he's clearly deeply unhappy and then suddenly offers to marry this gal. You know, they're going for their little afternoon drives, which I think is Yes.
Jay: Yeah.
Jay: And there's some, there's some hilarious language in the proposal. He calls her a little fool. He says, you're almost as ignorant as Mrs. Van Hopper and just as unintelligent.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: He says at the moment, I don't think you realize anything at all. Which is just, I was, that's one we read and you're like, is this, did this read differently in 1936 compared to 2026?
Nate Day: Mmm.
Jay: Because I don't know, like, I i have to assume he it it reads like he was being a jerk then as well.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: But I was trying to translate that a little bit.
Nate Day: You got to imagine
Jay: I just, it is the most unromantic proposal in in history.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yes. I think the the key factor in that question is is like remembering that this was written by a woman as well. So there probably was a lot of he might be a representation, honestly, of like how fucked up women had it. oh Right. Like because he doesn't really give much of a shit about her. Ever.
Nate Day: Well, not ever. For a long time. For a long time. Yeah. yeah Oh my gosh. I'm so, yes, yes, yes. So I have, I also have two quotes from that exact scene. i mean, the, the writing is objectively good.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Cool.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: It keeps you, it keeps you engaged in what should be dry and moving too slowly, which is why I say, I think that part was deliberate as well.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: So when she finally says, I love you, he does not say it back. And instead of being like, yo, what the fuck, you just proposed to me. She like rationalizes and tries to logic her way through it and decides this is not him being the jerk that he is absolutely being. She decides that this is an original response.
Nate Day: on his part and he just doesn't want it to be some like cliche or sappy proposal right no you're just picturing this poor girl and you're like nah this guy ain't it right there's a scene i loved this line when they're they're going for these little drives and there's a clock in the dashboard of the car which rocks yeah i suppose they all have them but for 1938 that felt surprising that was yeah i mean i think that was a money thing yeah then yeah yeah uh and she she says she's happy for his silence yet eager for his words my only enemy was the clock oh because one was gonna run out uh-huh
Jay: Thank you.
Jay: That's it.
Nate Day: And you're like, this guy doesn't, yeah, doesn't give two shits about you. And you are savoring every minute of these little afternoon drives. Oh, what a, I mean, once again, for like the thousandth time, if this were not for the pod, I don't know that I would have fought through the beginning, which objectively would have been wrong on my part.
Jay: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nate Day: But yeah, just deeply unhappy dude. Suddenly, hey, I'm going to propose again, considering the social norms of the time, which comes up often throughout this. This is an era of chaperones.
Nate Day: for young people's dates of extraordinary courtship and even engagement expectations.
Nate Day: And suddenly these two are just like, yeah, sure. 47 year old dude, let's go. right she She bought a postcard of his estate previous to knowing him.
Jay: Yep.
Jay: Yep.
Jay: in her defense, she had no idea what Manderly was.
Nate Day: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Jay: She, because she bought the postcard and she was like, she had to ask the person at the shop what it was. So, you know, I i think there is an interpretation that she was like headhunting him, but it does strike me that it was completely accidental.
Nate Day: Oh.
Nate Day: Yes. Yes. This is this is firmly oh firmly is far too strong a word. This is a genuine meet cute. She's not gold digging.
Jay: Yep, for sure.
Nate Day: Right. Right.
Jay: And she has almost no agency, like, during any of these scenes. She's, like, and then, honestly, throw throughout the whole book, like, she is going along with the with the waves the whole book.
Nate Day: Yes.
Jay: No pun intended.
Nate Day: Just being buffeted and... all
Nate Day: don Don't get ahead of us.
Jay: Uh...
Jay: I don't mean to, i don't mean to, uh, to interject, but I'm very curious how the Hitchcock movie, uh, treated that. Like, how did the movie treat their like romance when they were in Monte Okay.
Nate Day: And Monte yeah. They... I actually think it's kind of one of the flaws of the movie is that, especially watching it all these years later, the movie came out in 1940.
Nate Day: Immediately after the book. you You really feel how deeply inappropriate the relationship was because they they just met. They were sneaking around while in Monte Carlo.
Nate Day: He's twice her age. He's twice her age.
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: He's a total dick to her. And actually they met... I don't know if this is how they meet in the book, but she stops him from, uh, like jumping off a cliff in the movie.
Jay: Oh, that's, yeah, that's different.
Nate Day: Oh yeah.
Jay: That's an addition.
Nate Day: And, he's really rude to her and like sort of get lost so when they run into each other again and he's kind of nice and like wants to spend time with her she's like what that what is going on here so it's it's really bizarre to answer your question i think unfortunately i mean the movie is known as a masterpiece so i don't mean to say that like somebody else could have done it better but i do think that
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: especially in modernity. That's a a flaw of of the movie is how it handled the romance.
Jay: Mm-hmm.
Nate Day: You're just like, I don't understand any of this. That is curious.
Jay: Now, I will say in the in the Netflix version, they have like a torrid love affair. Like they are sleeping up together on the beach.
Nate Day: Oh. Oh.
Jay: They are like making out in like there's they they injected a lot more passion.
Nate Day: Okay.
Jay: Also, I think the two actors are a little closer in age. Like the age difference doesn't really show up in the Netflix version.
Jay: And yeah, it was, you know, it it makes more sense of why they're together when you watch the Netflix version, but it also kind of ruins a lot of the themes that like are kind of implicit in the story.
Nate Day: yeah interesting romantically yeah okay interesting
Jay: Yeah. yeah It's cause it makes a lot more sense that they are together, that she, that they love each other. Yeah. In the Netflix version.
Jay: So I thought that was a very interesting change in the Netflix.
Nate Day: Yeah. That sucks.
Jay: I agree. I tend to agree a lot.
Nate Day: Yeah. That's a horrible... Okay.
Nate Day: That sucks. That's entirely incorrect. That they...
Jay: yeah the the movie missed a lot of themes in general but yeah that's kind of the first one where you're kind of like oh that's a very interesting change and it does make it more palatable to a modern audience but uh you know at but at what cost of the rest of the story
Nate Day: in The Netflix thing? Yeah. yeah
Nate Day: Fair. Yes.
Nate Day: Right. Right. The story. Yeah. I mean, it, it, I would have, I'll be totally honest. I would have been happy if the first four chapters moved a bit quicker, but also I see why, like the, it, it made sense.
Nate Day: Okay.
Jay: Thank
Nate Day: That's crazy. Yeah. The, the social customs are once again, nearly, an additional character here. They're coming back to the estate. He's been gone for so long.
Nate Day: Uh, it's finally revealed that the first Mrs. DeWinter, uh, died in the Bay. Yeah. Drowned or went, went missing, right? Does she go missing? I don't remember. Danvers is describing it too. I think, I think she full on tells her that she drowned in the Bay. Okay.
Nate Day: But the yeah, all of the the the tension is nearly entirely due to his wife passes away. Ten months later, he comes back from this essentially bereavement with this new and new and younger addition, just playing his best DiCaprio here.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah. He is. And everybody's got their feelings about it. And you don't know why. You don't know why everyone's being weird. Why is Frank answering her questions in this way? And we have, I loved this choice.
Nate Day: Big fan of a non-omniscient narrator.
Jay: Yes, completely agree.
Nate Day: Okay. we We are learning all of these things as she does. As she is. And learning them incorrectly in some cases as she does. Yeah. Or or only her interpretation, right?
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: Yeah, she brings a lot of assumptions into her new living situation.
Nate Day: Yes. Typically to her detriment, but also that makes her infinitely more relatable.
Jay: Almost always.
Nate Day: the the the stream Not stream of consciousness, but the her inner monologue makes this such a raw and intimately relatable tale from a circumstance that none of us should relate to. Right.
Jay: Yeah, completely agree.
Nate Day: Right. Again, social customs in mind.
Nate Day: Jay, wonderful work. You've led straight into the next point that I wrote. the The power here comes from this outlandish situation. None of us could imagine living. You meet some dude in Monte Carlo, get married three weeks later, again, keeping these fairly rigid, would this be, Victorian social norms?
Jay: Well, we'd be like post-World War one So like there is some, you know, there's some opening stuff here happening.
Nate Day: So 38.
Jay: We're not quite Victorian, but but we're still in England.
Nate Day: Some. Yeah.
Jay: And like he clearly has customs that have been passed down through the centuries.
Nate Day: Which are expected, yes, as the landed elite, right?
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: Set in the late 20s or thirty s Yeah. Which is never, i don't think it's I don't think a year is ever given explicitly yeah in the storyline.
Jay: No, not specifically.
Nate Day: Yeah. So, yes, rigid, rigid social structure, certainly expectations, if nothing else. And then we we have this unraveling of absolutely raw, intimate, horrific expectations.
Nate Day: interpersonal happenings. Right? Her talking to Frank, her meeting Danvers. I mean, you the staff of the house, yeah you hate it Oh, yeah, sorry. I don't know why i apologize to you Sorry, dear listener, the staff of the estate.
Nate Day: You just hate Danvers from the get go.
Jay: Can I read? can I read how Danvers is introduced?
Nate Day: Yes, please.
Jay: Someone advanced from the sea of faces, someone tall and gaunt, dressed in deep black, whose prominent cheekbones and great hollow eyes gave her a skull's face, parchment white, set on a skeleton's frame.
Nate Day: I just got chills.
Jay: When she took my hand, hers was limp and heavy, deathly cold, and it lay in mine like a lifeless thing.
Nate Day: Damn.
Nate Day: Jesus Christ. She sounds like vampire.
Jay: And every time... Yeah, and every single time that they're having a conversation throughout the book, she calls Danvers, or she says Danvers has a skull face, or a white skull face.
Nate Day: so she' So she's just meeting 2026 Celine Dion. That's what. Why?
Jay: but
Nate Day: You keep ripping on her. this which She looks like Skeletor. stand by that.
Nate Day: That's the second kind or third time Celine Dion's come up in the last couple of days. That's who I pictured.
Jay: That's...
Nate Day: In reading that description, I pictured Celine Dion in a neck high black gown.
Jay: i'll I'll reserve judgment until I research this later.
Nate Day: I don't reserve anything. it It requires two Google images to certify my statement. Yeah. do You get, you get this, this horrific and that's, when these details are being given to her slowly and through the lens of each of these characters, personal relationships with the former Mrs. DeWinter, not to get ahead of ourselves.
Nate Day: All I could think, I think it was around chapter 10. I just wrote a note to myself that said two tortured people. You're just sitting in it and being miserable with them.
Nate Day: Right. But this is, this is what I think made it powerful. Right. you have the dark realities of each of our daily internal feelings, second guessing ourselves, negative self-talk, things that are, we've, everyone has experienced this.
Nate Day: so heartbreaking when you voice it, right? And it requires a vulnerability that is all too rare to go to a dear friend, a family member and voice, you know, this thing you've been saying to yourself every day as this character is.
Jay: Mm-hmm.
Jay: so
Nate Day: And it's heartbreaking, you know, when you find out your friend thinks they're overweight, thinks no one likes them, you know, whatever, any insert, any of this plethora available to all of us and happening to all of us daily.
Nate Day: And then this was like, that's the knife going in. Right. And then the twisting of the knife is, when she goes to finally maybe voice some of these thoughts, finally ask some questions, finally get some details about this new ridiculous life.
Nate Day: And, some of them are genuinely quite close to reality.
Jay: Mm-hmm.
Nate Day: Someone goes, this is not from the story, but a... exaggerated example someone goes oh yeah i had a weird time at the party i feel like no one there likes me and you know we all there's a little bit not fishing necessarily but you voice it and you're waiting for someone to go no no you're good dude and someone's like yeah you i mean you were a little weird in comes danvers yeah and yeah nobody likes you you're correct yes we don't want you here
Jay: Yep. Yep. Well, and not just that. She goes, nobody liked you. Oh, and by the way, everybody loved Rebecca.
Nate Day: Uh-huh. Oh, Danvers is like the head head maid, or I don't really know what the position is called, but she's sort of like the number one person that, that our protagonist is interacting with yes throughout this story because her husband is gone a lot.
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: Yep. And, Danvers is really kind of the tether to this reality.
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: And, uh, That's yeah, that's super unfortunate that it's horrible. Psychologically speaking for our protagonist. It's horrible. I want to give another example of this. So she meets Frank Max's attorney yeah manager. They always talk about this office.
Nate Day: I don't know that they ever said it more detail. I think they literally say manager and I'm like, but of what?
Jay: Yeah, yeah, everything.
Nate Day: so she meets Frank, who obviously we find out much more later why his feelings about the late Mrs.
Jay: Amen.
Nate Day: DeWinter are Rebecca. I should just call her Rebecca. That's the name of the fucking book. so he's describing Rebecca, again, through what we find out later, she was essentially trying to seduce him for fun to hurt his friend, Max, absolute messy behavior.
Nate Day: And he essentially says, forget the past, giving no thought to the reality of her lived experience. That is, no, this is my house now. This is my husband now. for Forget how, right? Right.
Nate Day: And she, I genuinely shed a tear at this one.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: So they've got Jasper, this dog rolling around the house, right? I'm just picturing Penny the whole time. There's this old decrepit dog. Hey.
Nate Day: God, this, oh, I went back like seven times to make sure I wrote this quote down correctly. He, the nameless protagonist referring to Frank after he tells her to just forget the past.
Nate Day: He did not notice every day as I did the blind gaze of the old dog in its basket in the library who lifted its head up when it heard my footstep, the footstep of a woman and sniffing the air drooped its head down again because I was not the one she sought.
Jay: bit.
Nate Day: Damn.
Jay: yep
Nate Day: Even the dog. Oh, in I'd be packing up. Only one in a room. You walk in. Oh, at least the dog's excited to see me. Two sniffs.
Nate Day: Oh no, you're not her. Head back down.
Jay: nope
Nate Day: I hate to admit it, but that is exactly a thing my dog would but Yeah, but Penny would do it deliberately and maliciously.
Jay: no
Nate Day: Yeah. That's the difference. Yeah. I just. Penny wants to hurt your feelings. Yeah, that blows. you You have no family. You have no other connections. You finally think you've met this love of your life, even though he won't say I love you as he proposes.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: oh yeah. Ignoring that. Go to this insane estate that everybody knows, that everybody reveres. And even the fucking dog's disappointed in you.
Jay: yeah
Nate Day: Yeah. some weird Some weird notes, obviously, on the chaos after that. Why is Danvers still dusting Rebecca's rooms daily? Because she loved her.
Nate Day: This broad's been gone 10 months. That's creepy and weird.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Because Danvers is so sane. I mean, what? No, I literally just wrote insanity. Yeah. She, she meets the sister Bea and Maxim sister. Sorry. Thank you. and she's like, you know, the obligatory, yes, let's have tea. And I loved this. She thinks to herself, perhaps I can have influenza then.
Nate Day: oh God. Who hasn't done that? Who has not done that? Yeah.
Jay: Honestly, yeah.
Nate Day: Oh boy, maybe I can be sick that weekend. That's, that doesn't.
Jay: Ooh, I don't know. My throat's already feeling a little scratchy.
Nate Day: Oh, right. Yeah.
Jay: Maybe.
Nate Day: What is it? Oh, six months. No, no. It's going to be scratchy then too. Yeah. Loved it. But yeah how, how unhappy do you have to be for that to be your first thought? Right. Very well portrayed.
Nate Day: How deep do we want to dive into the meeting the grandma scene? grandma. Yeah, Max's grandma. That's not a thing in the movie. well I don't know about the 2020 version, but it's not in the 40 19.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Okay.
Jay: so the grandma in the Netflix version is just a long when Bea comes. So it's it's kind of combining the two scenes. So she's meeting both Beatrice and the grandma at the same time.
Jay: So basically what happens is the grandma, like, I think it's implied she has dementia or something like that. She just, yeah, she, so she just basically screams out like, where is Rebecca? I want Rebecca. What have you done with Rebecca?
Nate Day: Okay, so it's just another example of somebody not digging the new girl.
Jay: Like, who is this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Day: And you can see it coming. Now, for me, did this. And this did happen. Because you can see it coming from the onset of the scene.
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: So an individual that shall not be named came to Minnesota with me for the first time. Met Grandma Louise, is 94, is not all there. Oh.
Nate Day: Whoops. Just... called her Called her my ex-wife's name.
Nate Day: It was the exact same scene. And honestly, reading this felt as palpable as being there in that room. Because you can see it coming one bajillion miles away. yeah Oh, we have to go meet Grandma. We have to. They walk in. It's weird. And it's just, you're waiting.
Nate Day: Right? You're like, she's going to call her Rebecca. It's going to happen. She's going to do it. Oh my gosh.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: What a painful, horrific thing.
Nate Day: Yeah. Okay. this is totally an aside. when she when they When they finally have all of the friends over, and then the next morning she goes, I wondered if this is the same in every home, the exuberance of visitors leaving.
Nate Day: Oh my God. Everything's so bad. just I am so stoked. They are gone.
Jay: So whole funny.
Nate Day: So what bugged me, and I really wanted your thoughts on this.
Jay: Thank
Nate Day: She, the, the weird scene where Danvers clearly again, deliberately and maliciously suggests she dress as the late Mrs. DeWinter for the party that had to be in the movie. Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Nate Day: You can see both sides. I think his response, maybe for the first and only time in this entire book, is justifiable. Honestly, the only person, because Danvers was just acting in character as well, suggesting right that she dress as his dead wife for a party. yeah I hold her culpable.
Nate Day: our nameless protagonist. How did you look at that and not think there's a connection here? Maybe I should look into this further. Why would that portrait be there?
Jay: Interesting.
Nate Day: Do you know what I mean?
Jay: Nate, I'll let you take that first. take Why don't you take that from the movie?
Nate Day: Okay.
Jay: That's interesting.
Nate Day: My impression from the movie was, uh, there's this huge portrait of a woman wearing a very elaborate ball gown and like a Kentucky Derby type hat. And Danvers says you should get that dress made and wear it to the Halloween party yeah that they're throwing at Manderley. Wait, is it a Halloween party in the movie?
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah.
Jay: Well, it's it's a costume party, so it's I don't know when it is.
Nate Day: Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Jay: But yeah, because everybody is showing up in kind of stranger costumes as well.
Nate Day: okay yeah
Nate Day: Yeah. My understanding was that the portrait was not necessarily Rebecca, but it was a
Nate Day: I think it's up with a bunch of portraits of his ancestors.
Nate Day: Yes. So it could it could have been anybody.
Jay: Yeah, I think it's a great aunt or something.
Nate Day: Yeah. Okay.
Jay: her name is Her name is Carolyn, so it's Carolyn DeWinter.
Nate Day: Okay, so it is a DeWinter, but not Rebecca.
Jay: Yep. It's a, it's a, mm-hmm.
Nate Day: So I disagree with you because it's like our nameless protagonist did not know that Rebecca had also worn a dress like that to a party.
Nate Day: Okay, hold on. So you're rocking my world. So I misunderstood it. This was not a portrait of Rebecca herself.
Jay: Yeah.
Jay: Correct.
Nate Day: Rebecca also mimicked that.
Jay: So.
Nate Day: Oh, okay.
Jay: Correct.
Nate Day: No, no, no. That's way, way better.
Jay: That's exactly right.
Nate Day: Okay. Okay.
Jay: Yep. Yeah.
Nate Day: I misunderstood that.
Jay: So it's, again, I don't know if it's as great onto who it is, but it's Carolyn DeWinter and Danvers is really in the book is really sneaky about it. She's like, why don't you take a look at the galleries?
Jay: I I've always been really partial to that. I think it's white in the book, the white dress.
Nate Day: Yes.
Jay: the Netflix version changes it to red for some reason, which is just like, what, for what reason?
Nate Day: Cool. Okay. Yeah. Come on.
Jay: Anyway.
Nate Day: Well, so heavy handed.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: Anyway, so yeah. And one of the interesting things too is that this is one of the only times in the book that she's called, like, i got a little confused again because she wants to be introduced as Caroline De Winter.
Jay: So it's another it's another kind of moment that she's kind of called a different name and we still don't know her real name.
Nate Day: Oh.
Jay: It's it's a very interesting
Nate Day: Wow, that's cool, actually. Yeah. Yeah.
Jay: Yeah, it's it's a very interesting theme. So yeah, it is it was not a portrait of Rebecca, which would definitely change.
Nate Day: Okay.
Jay: That would be crazy if she... Yeah.
Nate Day: No, that's what I thought it was the whole time. I thought it was a portrait of Rebecca. And I'm like, you dolt. What are you? Yeah, he's going to respond poorly.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Hey, dude, saw a picture your dead wife.
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: Thought you'd love me dressing like her.
Jay: How do I look?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah. Ask the drummer to stop and give her an entrance first. They're going to love this.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Okay. I feel so much better out knowing that. All right. All right. So you started going, she's culpable. I was like, no, yeah. Cause I think you and I have to have a talk about morals after this. Anyway, guys, she did everything wrong. Weird moral to the story.
Nate Day: So that, I mean, that seems obviously crazy. And immediately for the first time in the book, when I actually want some space to breathe, same night of the ball, they find the sunk ship.
Nate Day: So, well, no, not skipping ahead. That's incredibly important. So this is when it is, oh gosh, what's the best order to describe this?
Nate Day: What are you talking about?
Jay: Like what happened? You're asking like what, what happens next?
Nate Day: So, find a ship. So, first of all, Max does not come to bed. She goes into this party dressed just like his dead wife was, and he's reasonably furious.
Jay: Mm-hmm.
Jay: Okay.
Nate Day: All the partygoers leave. She can't find him. He does not come to bed. He disappears for the night. Next morning, a ship is...
Nate Day: beached, I guess, in the bay. Scuttled.
Jay: Yeah. Yep.
Nate Day: Yeah, scuttled. They went for the wrong bay. This one's too shallow. The tugboats are out there to get it. Divers are going down trying to see if they can get it loose and they find Rebecca's boat, which she was supposed to have been thrown from and killed.
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: And Max identifies the body at the morgue. And this diver's like, yo, guys, I looked in the window. There's a body in the boat.
Nate Day: magnificent because it is not clear at all.
Nate Day: I'm curious how that could possibly transfer to film because at least, well, I guess, I don't know. I would love your opinion on it, Jay. To me, not clear at all.
Nate Day: You're like, who's the body in the boat? There's another person. we already found Rebecca's body.
Jay: Yeah, the first time I read it, yeah.
Nate Day: Who's is this?
Jay: This is where, like, I started in my first read, I loved the twists and turns of this because I had, i was i was not guessing any of the next steps.
Nate Day: Yes.
Jay: It was just like, oh my God, who's this body?
Nate Day: Yes. Yeah.
Jay: You know, from there.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: Like, it I think it is so masterfully done during this scene.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Do they, is it, is it immediately clear in the film that it's Rebecca or is some of that mystery maintained? Uh, no, there's definitely like a, WTF element because I think in the movie he mentions that he buried a body. Yes, he went. He.
Nate Day: and So you're like, well, what is going on here?
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: But yeah, I mean, this it's an interesting structure for a story because of that slow burn beginning. It all leads up to one night and this night could not have played out the way it did without that.
Nate Day: Yes. Slow burn beforehand. So you you everything happens. Yeah. The night of the party. And I guess maybe over to the next 20. Yeah. The morning after. Yeah. Yeah, you're totally thrown for a loop.
Nate Day: Okay, still not thrown. Okay, and I guess they did say, you know, 10 months bottom of a bay. I think they did specify it's essentially a skeleton at this point. Or unidentifiable.
Jay: listen
Nate Day: Yeah, I think they like identified it by the rings on her hands or something. Okay, that detail wasn't there, right, yeah.
Jay: Yeah, yeah, her engagement ring, her wedding ring is still on.
Nate Day: of
Nate Day: Yes.
Jay: One fun thing, did you look up the name of the boat and what it means in French?
Nate Day: No, no.
Jay: So the name of her boat is Je Réviens. i don't know how to say it in French, obviously. That translates to I'm coming back.
Nate Day: fuck's sake. Oh, I got you. Oh, yeah.
Jay: Yeah, amazing.
Nate Day: Oh, yes, she is.
Jay: So you have a night where where like her dress shows up, like basically possessing our protagonist, and then her boat resurfaces in the same night, and that's the name of her boat, I'm Coming Back.
Nate Day: Oh,
Nate Day: cool.
Jay: How cool is that?
Nate Day: That fucking rocks.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Oh, so spoopy. so So this is, we, we talk about we need to coin a term for this. I'm sure someone already has every book to me. There's a point where like, Oh no, I need to read this till the end.
Nate Day: Right. This tipping off point.
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: And that was undoubtedly this scene where like could not put it down from that point, have to get all the way to the ending. Now that's called the climax.
Jay: Yep. Yeah.
Nate Day: No, but I want, I want, I want a different name for it for, for the,
Jay: So in, i don't know if you've read any Brandon Sanderson books yet, but he, he, his, or his term is the Sander Lynch.
Nate Day: Obviously.
Jay: where just like the climax is just like the last third of the book. I don't think he calls it that, but his fans do, where it's just, it is just going to be constant.
Nate Day: That sounds like an s STD.
Jay: The Sanderlanch, you can just take a course of antibiotics. They'll clear right up. So 24 hours, you're good to go.
Nate Day: 24 hours. we'll We'll have that out Yes, yes. Okay, that's exactly it. That's what I'm talking about. And this is un undeniably that point for this book. This was the part I feel moderately hazy on. This is where she finally goes to him and he says like, yo, big dog, I murdered her.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: I feel like I'm skipping stuff, but I don't.
Jay: No, but i think I think to get too bogged down in these details would probably be a little bit too much because it is a lot of like twists and turns.
Nate Day: Okay.
Nate Day: A lot from here.
Jay: And I do think we should, I know we said let's not care about spoilers, but we can leave some of this stuff to the imagination.
Nate Day: Oh, okay.
Jay: I think the important thing is that he killed her. He sunk the boat. And he couldn't get it further out. So it's just like right in the shallows.
Nate Day: right there. They found a body.
Nate Day: 100%.
Jay: Yeah. And I think the motivation for the murder is the most interesting part of this.
Nate Day: hundred percent Yes. Okay. Thank you. Okay. This is when he finally says, I love you.
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: After revealing, no, I killed her and there's going to be an inquest now. And as the reader, you are super stoked.
Nate Day: This is the definition of a moral quandary. The happiest I was in the reading up to this point was when we find out dude murdered somebody, obviously.
Nate Day: For. Well, I don't endorse murdering people. Exactly. That's the problem. That's the problem you have, right?
Jay: If they're mean to you...
Nate Day: Here's the problem. Yes, we're given boy you know her 13 reasons why she he hates her. Weird pull
Nate Day: Well, because they think that she... Just saying. the final The final determination is that she killed herself. it' Come on. i thought I thought that was medium clever.
Jay: No, and very good. It just was so unexpected. just
Nate Day: oh I had to.
Jay: It also did not feel intentional. So I think that that's where we were coming from.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah.
Jay: It's like, did you do that on purpose or?
Nate Day: Right. Yeah. No, I stuttered. First and foremost, in my mind, I was halfway between 1001 and 13. Oh. Second of all, I haven't watched it. So I had to stop and remember if 13 Reasons Why was the suicide one.
Nate Day: Yes, it is. Yeah. Because she... No, that was... I stand by what I said. That was a good one. Okay. Yeah. this is where we get the, the, an immediate illustration of, the proverb.
Nate Day: One man's story seems right until another comes forward. Right now.
Jay: the
Nate Day: Suddenly everybody has their opinion on it. The papers, the neighbors, her weird kissing cousin. Uh, and,
Jay: More than kissing.
Nate Day: And underneath all of this, you are finally relieved. They are finally happy for the first time. That's nuts. That's crazy. the Oh, my gosh.
Nate Day: My husband murdered his wife. Thank goodness.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: But because it's because there's been so much tension hanging over everything that it's like popping a big zit.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yes, yeah yes, yes. and she And she said more than once, this relief for her on her end was... Oh, he didn't love her.
Nate Day: Cause she's feeling, you know, inadequate compared this whole time. And she is just so, so stoked. Oh no, no. She was a jerk to him. He didn't love her. This is fantastic news amidst my husband killed his wife.
Jay: Yep, yeah.
Nate Day: Oh, brilliant. Brilliant. think, I think that's actually, well what did I say? The phenomenon of feeling so relieved, uh,
Nate Day: that he did not love Rebecca and she was a bad person and he murdered her. And as the reader, you were just cheering yeah in the in the bleachers observing this.
Nate Day: That was the last note that I had because the ending is crazy. And I agree, we could leave a little we live a little meat on the bone.
Jay: Yeah, we'll leave a little bit, yeah.
Nate Day: Okay, yeah okay. Okay, well, that's the book. That's the book. Let's talk a little bit about the movies. There's two major movies.
Nate Day: One that I watched and it sounds like Jay watched the... Did you only watch the 2020 one?
Jay: Yeah, i only watched the Netflix adaptation.
Nate Day: Yeah. And we'll talk a little bit about why the 1941 is so hard to track down. But... you just want this over there? No, I don't. Okay.
Nate Day: Released in 1940, the credit for writing is a little bit strange. The screenplay is officially credited to Robert E. Sherwood and Joan Harrison, who is the first woman to be nominated at the Oscars for best screenplay.
Jay: Oh, cool.
Nate Day: Sick. But there's two other guys, Michael Hogan and Philip McDonald, that are credited with the adaptation. I've never seen that credit before, so I don't know what that means.
Jay: Interesting.
Nate Day: It sounds like there was a lot of... The script was really hard to nail down, which i'll I'll get to more later. So I I'm guessing that it was kind of just like a, whatever version of the writer's guild they had at the time kind of making sure everybody had credit. So there, do I understand you correctly? They're credited just for adapting, but someone else wrote the screenplay. Yeah. Based on these credits, but there's, there's a lot of, confusion around who wrote what and, uh,
Nate Day: like how much of their words are in the screenplay because it was so it was written and rewritten and rewritten and rewritten because the director Alfred Hitchcock, one of the greatest directors to ever live, was really butting heads with the studio that that was financing the movie.
Jay: Hmm.
Nate Day: He wanted to make a lot of changes. Hitchcock did. And the studio wanted like fidelity to the book. So there was it was just a really sticky situation. Like I said, Hitchcock was the director. He's known as one of the greatest directors ever. he's Mostly now we sort of look back at him as a king of horror because he also did like Psycho and the birds.
Nate Day: And this is, I think, kind of a horror story. a lot of horrific things.
Jay: Mhm.
Nate Day: Certainly, certainly gothic. But really his whole career is is about tension. There's a lot of plot twists in his movies, suspense, like thrilling stories. I'm sure you've heard the term Hitchcock Blonde because a lot of his stories center around women and he really had a thing for blondes.
Nate Day: So so okay
Jay: just
Nate Day: so our our main character that doesn't have a name is sort of a classic Hitchcock blonde, like a stunningly beautiful woman that has blonde hair.
Jay: Thank you.
Nate Day: Starred Laurence Olivier, who we talked a little bit about in Wuthering Heights, one of the most legendary actors of all time. Joan Fontaine played
Nate Day: a woman without a name and judith anderson played miss danvers all three ended up with oscar nominations pretty cool hitchcock was he read the book while he was making his previous film which was called jamaica inn also it s not yeah also a de maria moya adaptation
Jay: Thank you.
Nate Day: And, uh, he, he tried to purchase the rights to that book, but could not afford them on his own. so David O. Selznick, who was, the owner of Selznick international, which was a huge, movie studio scooped up the rights and then gave Hitchcock the directing gig.
Nate Day: And like I said, it was, uh, there was a lot of head butting between the the two of them, for a lot of reasons. partially because Hitchcock wanted to make all these changes.
Nate Day: This is a sort of strange film in Hitchcock's filmography because nothing happens sort of until the end. That's not usually, i mean, if you've seen the birds, like the birds are mad the whole time.
Nate Day: i don't know you've ever seen that movie, you but it's, but that's, it's, it's, it's almost like anti-Hitchcockian or like,
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: diet Hitchcockian, except that you're so frickin walloped by the end of the story that you're like, there it is. That's what he was into this story for.
Jay: yep
Nate Day: Some of the rewriting they had to do as well. I was really curious about this. They had to tone down some of the suggestive material because at the time in the 40s, you couldn't put some of the things that were in the book on screen, including Rebecca's death.
Nate Day: had to be an accident. Was that the case in in the book? the Well, he killed you said he killed her.
Jay: it
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: Yeah, it was yeah definitely intentional. She definitely like goads him. like She's definitely seeking to be killed, but it's it's not accidental.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Day: That was a crazy statement. It's kind of...
Jay: You do disagree?
Nate Day: I don't, especially with what what you know what's revealed at the very end.
Jay: She is pushing all of his, but she, I mean, she stopped.
Nate Day: But seeking to be killed. Yeah, she sucks.
Jay: She's like just short of putting the gun in his hand. Like it is basically like, I think that in my opinion, she was, that's the outcome she was looking for that night.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Oh, well, and which Max also says.
Jay: Yeah. Because anyway,
Nate Day: Yeah. Okay.
Jay: yep
Nate Day: Wow. The way it's written in the movie is that it's, it's sort of a happy accident or like the perfect storm is what ends up killing her.
Jay: Hmm.
Nate Day: And then he's able to like hit the ground running in this sort of cover up and, you know, reclamation of his own life when she dies.
Jay: Thank you.
Nate Day: So in the Hitchcock film, he does not kill her. I don't believe so. now Now I'm starting to doubt myself. But I mean, like Jay said, it was like it was going to happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. how And then she okay, okay. Yeah. and And that's again, it's just because we lived in such a more conservative time, they couldn't put a man getting a specifically the problem was that he gets gets off. Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah, it it they felt it read like an endorsement of marital violence, which I guess fair. And they also had to downplay some of the relationship between Rebecca and Danvers, because it's I think it's very heavily alluded to that the two of these women were in a relationship.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: of some kind.
Jay: Oh.
Nate Day: Oh, Danvers and Rebecca. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. Neither of you picked up on like in a safe sense. Yeah. No, no, no, no. She, she was Rebecca's nurse literally from childhood and just has this lifelong devotion to an employer she's cared for, for presumably three plus decades. Okay. So this, one of the changes is that Danvers in the movie is much younger.
Nate Day: Oh, and, Pretty heavily implied that her and Rebecca were getting it on. I mean, not off brand. The the would fit in, in my opinion, share in the book seamlessly.
Nate Day: and And so they had to downplay some of that relationship because you couldn't have two kissing girls.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Can't be gay. Yeah. Massively successful movie, both critically and commercially. Won Best Picture and Best Cinematography at the Oscars that year with 11 total nominations. And it was one of the year's most profitable movies. I don't have hard numbers because inflation since then is so wacky. I couldn't make heads or tails.
Nate Day: I did want to throw in here. i wonder if you guys saw this at all in your research. After the film's release, there was a plagiarism claim from an author named Edwina McDonald, who wrote, it sounded to me like it was a short story that was included in a larger book.
Nate Day: And that book was called Blind Windows. And it was about intermarital murder.
Jay: Thank you.
Nate Day: I just thought it was very interesting because this story is so famous. and I had never heard of this claim, which ultimately got thrown out, I believe, in part because Edwina died.
Nate Day: So they just dropped it. just were like, well...
Jay: Yeah. i So she wrote about that in her like author's note. She said, I had never heard of Mrs.
Nate Day: Okay. Okay.
Jay: McDonald or her blind windows. The novel was sent to me and I glanced through it. It was nothing like my Rebecca, save for the fact that the man in the book had been married twice.
Nate Day: Yeah, I read a little bit about the story that McDonald wrote, and it seemed to me like you could maybe make the claim that the stories were similar with a gender reversal.
Jay: So.
Nate Day: I think it was about a woman killing a guy or something like that.
Jay: nice
Nate Day: just I just thought it was interesting that it would has kind of gone under the radar. You know, we're so sensitive in 2026 to things like the Michael Jackson movie is unethical because of what he allegedly did. So to have this story have a plagiarism claim and that not really be a part of its legacy was super interesting me.
Nate Day: Another sort of fun fact, the movie opened the first ever Berlin International Film Festival, which is one of the biggest in film festivals in the world every year and is used primarily to launch like prestige films,
Nate Day: marketing but also for awards so it's just always i mean of course it's hitchcock so of course it was always you know going to be sort of prestige but it just very much was built into its dna this movie rarely streams on major streaming services i don't totally i couldn't really find a clear answer why
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: but several versions are available for free on YouTube and they have like millions of views. So i don't think like Hitchcock's estate has an issue with it or anything.
Nate Day: So are his other films on like Netflix or they, they will stream regularly. Like they'll pop around streaming services. It's just kind of strange.
Nate Day: I don't know why this is the one that doesn't, but that would be why i don't know if you looked into trying to find the 40 version.
Jay: I did try to find it, but yeah, it wasn't on anything.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: And I did see the YouTube versions, but ran out of time to watch both movies.
Nate Day: Right.
Jay: So went with the one that was more easily accessible.
Nate Day: Yeah. there It's long too. The 19, yeah.
Jay: Yeah.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: then there were two mini series adaptations, one in 79 the BBC and one in 97, on PBS. I thought it was kind of interesting.
Nate Day: Charles Dance and Diana Rigg. from Game of Thrones were both in that show.
Jay: Mm-hmm.
Nate Day: And Diana Rigg won an Emmy for playing Danvers, I believe. So I did not see those ones. I don't think they are streaming. And then as we've alluded to a handful of times, in 2020, Netflix released a remake directed by Ben Wheatley.
Nate Day: Mostly does B action movies. I have no idea why he was interested in this movie. There's not a ton of literature out there about this movie. I scrolled through even the Wikipedia page for this movie is sparse.
Nate Day: And I sort of decided not to watch it because I was like, the little information on this page is telling me that I'm not be very happy watching this movie.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: And you had said that you were going to watch it. So I was like, check. yeah
Jay: Yep, yep.
Nate Day: Stars Lily James, Armie Hammer. Obviously Ruffalo could talk about ethics.
Jay: Unfortunately.
Nate Day: Yeah. Uh, uh, pre or post candle. This was right before it actually was kind of interesting because army hammer was like really trying to launch himself into like superstardom as an actor, right around this time.
Nate Day: And, uh, i think it was maybe a year later that the cannibalism and rape claims were made, which I covered.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: I also covered extensively as a journalist. And another reason I just can't look at it after all, everything that I wrote and read and learned, i was like, I don't want to look at this guy.
Jay: Yeah. And it's uncomfortable. Like the couple of scenes where he gets angry, it's like, Ooh, I don't like that.
Nate Day: Yeah, yeah.
Jay: That makes me feel bad.
Nate Day: Right.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: You can't you you can't not think about it. Is he I presume he plays Max? I believe so.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: Mm-hmm.
Nate Day: Kristen Scott Thomas and Ann Dowder in that movie as well. A couple of good actors, but I just couldn't. It got terrible reviews, partly because it's just a remake of a classic, but it sounds like it also thematically you didn't understand what the book was going for.
Jay: It missed a lot.
Nate Day: yeah
Jay: Yeah, it missed a lot of themes for sure.
Nate Day: And it actually performed quite poorly on Netflix as well. didn't People were not that interested. I think that because...
Jay: Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Day: i think that because The original doesn't stream. I think it sort of feels like a lost film within Hitchcock's filmography because he's got some like vertigo and the birds and rear window are all of these just Titanic films that are all over the place all the time. So I can see how a remake of this would trip and fall flat on its face, even if it was a good movie, just because it sort of gets buried in Hitchcock's filmography.
Nate Day: But that's all I've got. I wanted to move quickly because the movies are so famous and so accessible on YouTube. I would encourage anybody listening to to check out the 1941. Should we move into some DQs?
Nate Day: Yeah. Can we, since you watched the Netflix one, besides the glaring issues you've already discussed, was there anything else that you were like, why?
Jay: Yeah.
Jay: Yeah. So the characterization of the protagonist is completely different. Like she's basically, i don't want to say inept in the book, but she has no agency whatsoever.
Nate Day: yeah Right.
Jay: And she constantly tiptoes around. Like she won't even say Rebecca's name. She doesn't want to know about Rebecca. And she's constantly like, how'd your wife die?
Nate Day: Oh
Jay: Do you want to about your wife? And it's,
Nate Day: no.
Jay: crazy Like it completely ruins because you know, it's kind of like what you're so you're saying earlier, Chris, about like, you don't want to vote like these certain things you just can't voice.
Nate Day: different
Jay: Because it's almost like, it's almost like manifesting its ghost.
Nate Day: Like breathes life into it.
Jay: And I think that a lot
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: Yep. And I think that she's so afraid of thinking about in the book, she's so afraid of thinking about Rebecca as this living, living breathing person that she doesn't even want to say her name or look at the r or see her signature.
Nate Day: Yes.
Jay: And in the book, she's constantly just like, how'd she die? You want to tell me about her? What's going on?
Nate Day: it It sounds like it's the 2020 -fication of if it's like if there's sex, then there's color.
Jay: I was like,
Nate Day: You know, the movie's in black and white, the original. So if they switch the dress to red, it seems very much like, yeah.
Jay: you Yeah. I think I have been thinking about this. i you know, it's kind of like in the, not to invoke this, but like in the Harry Potter movies, a lot of the criticism of particularly Hermione and Ron's characterization is that Ron turns into this clumsy, never solves any problems.
Jay: And anytime he solves something in the book, it gets passed to Hermione in the movies. It kind of felt like we can't have this like, totally weak character with no agency. And so they wrote in a lot of like positive characteristics for her.
Jay: So that she has more agency throughout the movie, which I think just kind of spoils
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: like things as it goes along i also think that the and pros and cons to this but like the age gap is as it is prevalent in the movie they've seen much closer in age and there's far less kind of classist or classism themes it's far less like fish out of water than the book is which i think kind of spoils some of that as well
Nate Day: Right.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Huh.
Nate Day: Yeah, it's like a total misunderstanding of yeah the... I think this is a strongly feminist movie and story because she's so intentionally written as an agency-less character.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: I think it's probably some commentary on Dumarié's part. yeah And it seems like they misunderstood that sort of nuanced approach to feminism, feminist storytelling for this 2020 version.
Jay: Yeah.
Jay: Yeah. For
Nate Day: I mean, she's certainly not, to to to my reading, she was not presenting this as a... I condone this. It was, right this is the bleak reality we live in.
Jay: sure. Okay.
Nate Day: Right, this is what happens. And I could i could very much see a true retelling now being reprimanded for, well, you can't treat women that way. Somebody misunderstanding what the story was trying to get at.
Jay: For sure. but but But it does miss the point.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: Two other notes. i just Just because I love this book so much that this is one of those, like a very classic adaptation of like it didn't do what I wanted to from the book.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: I very much am into that. But a lot of the subtext, particularly around like the haunting, is just turned to straight text. in the movie there's one line where where mrs van hopper when they're still in monty she's like her ghost still walks around that estate and then the protagonist the protagonist goes i don't believe in ghosts and storms out of the room and it's just like you're yeah you're missing so much of the point here
Nate Day: Oh. Oh.
Nate Day: okay Okay, dude.
Nate Day: That sucks.
Jay: Yeah, it's really bad. And then the other thing that I didn't, I don't think the movie did well, is that it's really hard to root for Maxim and our protagonists at by the end of the movie, because I think the movie does a really good job characterizing Rebecca on both sides.
Jay: It doesn't play up enough that everybody loved her and that she was beloved and beautiful. And it also did not do the turn very well about like her more insidious...
Jay: characteristics so you kind of are like watching them get away 100 you kind of watch them get away with murder and you feel bad about it which again you kind of miss like
Nate Day: which is like absolutely pivotal
Nate Day: Yeah, I can see that. No. Right. No. Right. Again, it seems like they were afraid to have like a flawed woman on screen because they're afraid to...
Jay: of
Nate Day: be accused of. someone Yeah. I mean, you to to tell this story, having not seen any film versions to tell this story properly in my mind, you first and foremost need to lean into a lot of discomfort.
Jay: yeah
Nate Day: Yeah. And this is, this is just the, the, uh, cowards way out at every one of those points.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Like even from the start, the, them starting as a happy marriage, derails like so much of the storyline.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: What on earth?
Jay: I completely agree. And it's, and it's little changes to like, so in the book, when they're going to tell Mrs. Van Hopper that protagonist is leaving and getting married in the book, only Maxim goes in the room to talk to her.
Nate Day: at At her request.
Jay: Yeah. At her request. But she also, she feels uncomfortable. Like I thought we would be like excitedly sharing this news to people.
Nate Day: Mm-hmm.
Jay: In the Netflix movie, they both go in together. And like Mrs.
Nate Day: No.
Jay: Van Hopper is like, oh my God, this is great news. So good for you.
Nate Day: No.
Jay: and again, it just, yeah, it starts off the marriage is too happy. It misses that she is alone and coming up with these stories in her head because she has nobody to talk to.
Jay: it misses, i think, it just misses the boat on a lot of these fronts.
Nate Day: Yeah, what a what a colossal fuck-up. It sounds like a different story, honestly.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Huh.
Jay: Yeah. I completely agree. It just, yeah, it, it almost makes me angry. Like again, because it does miss, it missed the so much of the point and tried to lean into like the ghost story aspect without really earning kind of that.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Okay. we need We need someone to watch the Netflix one.
Jay: Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Day: Like, I'm curious. Oh, did? No.
Nate Day: we need someone to watch the netflix one that has not read the book like i want to know if it's even a decent film oh regardless on its own text yes like do like thinking of it not even as an adaptation but just is it a good story because every every bit of that that that's truly a different story yeah
Jay: Yeah.
Jay: Yeah, it really is. They did make, I will say the one one thing I liked is the movie does, or I'm sorry, the book hits you over the head on a lot of things. Particularly the ending. i think it's simplified some of the like complicated legal aspects because the book just kind of goes on and on and like you're constantly being and I think it did okay in that aspect that's about the only thing I enjoyed but again it didn't stick the landing because you're not really rooting for Maxim to get away with it
Nate Day: Yes. Yeah.
Nate Day: Right. Right. Yeah. You're like, he should go to jail. He killed a lady.
Jay: and especially since it's Armie Hammer you're like I don't like this guy believe it or not straight to Joe
Nate Day: Yeah. Straight to jail. Lock him up.
Nate Day: so yeah I did too. I think you made a good point there, Jay.
Nate Day: Virtually the last, this undoubtedly the last two chapters of the book could and should have just been one. Arguably could have just done without the last chapter altogether.
Nate Day: That was like maybe in my mind when it just like goes astray and then they're going back to Manderly.
Jay: Yeah, what what do you mean by that? Which?
Jay: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Nate Day: It did nothing. It didn't. I don't know. It was a weird addition. That was, in my mind, like truly the only misstep on Madame Dumareau's part.
Jay: I can see what you're saying for sure. I think it kind of bookends just because the start of the book is so dreamy and so slow and so stream of consciousness. You know, because the epilogue, she actually wrote that first and then put it at the start of the book.
Jay: So she actually started with the characters, like all the bad stuff has already happened.
Nate Day: Oh...
Jay: she She had these fully formed characters in their kind of post- situational
Nate Day: Yeah. Interesting.
Jay: bliss, you know, and then that got, so I really liked the slow, but and I loved it actually a lot more on my reread.
Nate Day: Uh
Jay: I did not like it on the first read, but like the way it starts, they're already kind of in exile and it's slowly kind of, it's, it's like mist, like slowly shifting to Monte Carlo, but you're, so she's still kind of in the future.
Nate Day: huh.
Jay: So I think the ending of the book kind of works as a bookend to kind of how that stream of consciousness worked at the start.
Nate Day: Okay. Okay.
Jay: And that's my only, and then it ties together because then Manderley burns down. And so you, now, you know how they got to where they started type of thing.
Nate Day: uhu Oh, interesting. Okay. I like that. I changed my mind. and
Nate Day: Well, we already answered all of the questions I know that i wrote down, actually. Do you have some discussion additional discussion questions?
Jay: i I do have some questions I would love to talk about.
Nate Day: Yeah. Let's hear it.
Jay: First of all, did you are you a subtitles guy? are you watch it did you Were you able to watch the Hitchcock movie with subtitles?
Nate Day: I am a subtitles guy. I had to turn them off on this one because it's like YouTube's subtitles are not great.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: This, the way it, like you know, Netflix actually will upload a transcription. and YouTube is probably like AI or something. So I had to turn them off for this one.
Jay: Yeah, that makes sense. I was really interested, and we've already talked about this, I was super interested how the movies would handle her name.
Nate Day: Hmm.
Jay: and
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: i think that actually i didn't notice it when watching the Netflix movie that like just nobody ever addresses her.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: But one thing I thought the subtitles, when they're in Monte Carlo, when she speaks and it says like who's speaking, she was listed as mademoiselle.
Nate Day: Oh yeah.
Nate Day: Oh.
Jay: And then after she gets married, she's listed as Mrs. De Winter.
Nate Day: Interesting.
Jay: So I thought that was actually a fairly elegant way of like dancing around her name.
Nate Day: Yeah, totally. She is credited in the 1940 version, at least, as Mrs. DeWinter in the in the credits, just because they have to have something to write. Let me see what it says. and So one is just Rebecca and the other is Mrs. DeWinter?
Nate Day: Well, Rebecca never speaks. No, but I'm saying in the credits. Yeah, there is no Rebecca.
Jay: Yeah, they know this is actually, this is a great segue.
Nate Day: What?
Jay: I was so curious. There's no flashback scenes that ever show Rebecca.
Nate Day: Oh.
Jay: So there is nobody that's ever been cast. Well, I guess I don't know how the miniseries go. But there is no Rebecca. It's completely for your mind to just create this image of this person, much like our protagonist has created this image of this person.
Nate Day: Whoa. Yeah.
Nate Day: And it's so no flashback, no murder scene, no him and Rebecca.
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: No. Wow.
Jay: do you Do you guys have an image? Like, who would you cast as Rebecca right now if you had somebody?
Nate Day: Oh, who's the lady in that movie? we were making a movie in 2026, Rebecca, I think it would be cool if you could like flip an image that if we have an image of somebody like Kate Hudson is like a rom-com queen, you know, everybody is sort of endeared to Kate Hudson.
Jay: Yep. Yep.
Nate Day: i don't know if she could, well, Google are you her.
Nate Day: if If we could like flip that on its head, you know, This is exactly, this is this is what I was trying to, I was trying to find the cover of How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: This is who I was going to say. oh This is Kate Hudson? Yeah.
Jay: Oh, that's funny.
Nate Day: That's wild. Just because I think it would be, first of all, she's stunningly beautiful and that's got to be the thing, right? If you're casting Rebecca, she's got to be like jaw dropping.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: And I just think Kate has glee as one of her credits.
Jay: So funny.
Nate Day: And yeah, I think it just would be cool to to flip that image on its head that we have of Kate Hudson.
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: As opposed to somebody like...
Nate Day: was going to say, she looks a little too like kind and happy in my mind. okay Maybe, yeah.
Jay: So that's, here's my hot take. And I would love to see this person do this role.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Let's hear it.
Jay: And this is a theme for the pod and for the year and Hathaway.
Nate Day: Yeah? Oh, no. Yes! She would be really good.
Jay: Imagine because like, and especially if you were building the movie around more flashbacks, like she would do like, like, yeah, everybody's fallen in love with her.
Nate Day: She would be good.
Nate Day: yeah just haunting
Jay: Of course she's stunningly beautiful.
Nate Day: yeah
Jay: you know, like in the book, she's tall, slim, like all brown hair.
Nate Day: yeah imposing yeah yeah o i'm aroused that's i'm so glad you said that not just because it aligns with the podcast did you say you're aroused i didn't come on
Jay: Like I think I would love to see her do evil conniving. Like, I think that would be, i'm getting chills thinking about it.
Nate Day: But because after I said Kate Hudson out loud, it went through my head that Anne Hathaway is the better choice. Okay.
Jay: Yeah, I want to see it. I want to see that movie.
Nate Day: Additional option. Who's the lady? bad the I don't know why I'm looking it up.
Jay: Yeah, it's this is.
Nate Day: You'll just know. The the witch from the modern Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. Oh, Tilda Swinton? Yes, but dressed as the witch from Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. And then doing all of the Rebecca flashbacks.
Nate Day: No, no, no, no. The the crazy white makeup.
Nate Day: She's supposed to be like ugly in those movies.
Jay: I'm going to I'm going to.
Nate Day: that
Jay: yeah
Nate Day: That's not, sorry, Chris. He he suggests Tilda Swinton anytime.
Jay: Wow, everybody loves her at the party.
Nate Day: Yeah. yeah
Jay: Oh, I know. i this is my favorite part of the podcast is because Chris's actor knowledge is exclusively like BBC miniseries from 1990.
Nate Day: Hold on. if
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah. yeah Chris. Just her as Rebecca.
Jay: It's just not. Yeah.
Nate Day: Full crown and everything. For those that are listening, Chris just to held up his computer screen to the camera on a Google image search of Tilda Swinton Lion Witch Wardrobe.
Jay: hilarious
Nate Day: It did exactly what I wanted. This is how you know we're an hour and a half into the pod because Chris is losing it.
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: Man, Anne Hathaway would love She has dreads.
Jay: My other...
Nate Day: Yeah. Well, actually, wait. Also, counterpoint, Anne Hathaway would be phenomenal as the protagonist. Disagree.
Jay: I think that she wouldn't be...
Nate Day: What?
Jay: She's not, like, awkward and mousy enough, you know?
Nate Day: Yeah, she's too strong.
Jay: Like, that's the thing is...
Nate Day: Did you watch the first half of the first Devil Wears Prada? 20 years ago? Yeah. No, I watched it two weeks ago.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Okay. And she is the definition of Mousy. The first half of Princess Diaries. She she has a precedent set.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: You're talking about when she was a teenager. No, but she has a precedent set already in her body of work of doing exactly what the protagonist in this book does.
Jay: I'm compelled by this argument. She's too beautiful.
Nate Day: But then at the turn, suddenly she takes her glasses off and now you're like, wait, she's pretty.
Jay: Whoa. I think I wrote down Ella Hunt would be a perfect protagonist.
Nate Day: I don't know I know who Ella Hunt is.
Jay: Look her up.
Nate Day: Oh, the lady from like oddly in Les Mis with with Anne Hathaway. Oh, but yeah, that's pretty good.
Jay: I forgot cho was inly miss she was I really enjoyed her.
Nate Day: She could do it. Hmm. I don't know her you know her acting style or anything well enough, but I can see it visually. agree.
Jay: She was in Dickinson opposite Haley Steinfeld, and she played...
Nate Day: Oh, yeah. I know a lot of people really like that show.
Jay: Yeah, i mean, it's worth, well, worth a watch. I put in quotes, it's fine. But she plays Susan. So like, I forget who she was. The the person that it's theorized that Emily Dickinson had a relationship with.
Nate Day: Oh, okay.
Jay: Married her brother.
Nate Day: Oh.
Jay: But I think she could do that like awkward, i don't know. I think it would work.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: And then for Max, I want to see Bobby, I don't want to say his last name, Cannavale? Cannavale?
Nate Day: Bobby Cannavale. That's a good one. That's a really good call.
Jay: Wouldn't that be awesome?
Nate Day: Yeah. C-A-N-N. Oh, there you go
Jay: And I don't want him doing a British accent. I want it to be American Italian.
Nate Day: No. Yeah. Slimy. I like oh i like his sort of slimy vibe. Yeah, you're right. Perfect. just Just sitting at lunch, getting ready to propose to this girl, but totally flat affect.
Nate Day: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Jay: Yep. It would be perfect.
Nate Day: Phenomenal. Yeah, that's a good. Interesting.
Jay: And then while we're stunt casting, oh my God, why am blanking on her name?
Nate Day: Okay. For Max. Yep.
Jay: Oh my God. From this to be so embarrassing. Uh, from white Lotus.
Nate Day: Jennifer.
Jay: for Mrs.
Nate Day: Lisa.
Jay: Van Hopper.
Nate Day: Yeah. Jennifer Coolidge. Yes. 1000%.
Jay: Jennifer Coolidge for Mrs.
Nate Day: That's funny.
Jay: Van Hopper.
Nate Day: Seamless.
Jay: Which actually led me to thinking you could do the whole Monte Carlo scene as one of the B plots in a White Lotus season.
Nate Day: that's funny
Jay: I think you like you you could do just like some of the stuff.
Nate Day: seen was
Nate Day: It would not, yeah, it would not surprise me whatsoever if her character in season two of The White Lotus, once she got rich and had an assistant, by the way, it would not surprise me if Van Hopper was an inspiration.
Jay: Just White Lotus, Monte Carlo.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Who would I, hold on, hold on, Jarrett, you blazed two through fast.
Jay: Very similar.
Nate Day: So we did Rebecca.
Nate Day: Wait, did you say one for protagonist? No.
Nate Day: I don't know if I could come up with one. I think, honestly, I think that the protagonist, Joan Fontaine in the nineteen forty s this was like her breakout role that made her a star. And I think that works out really well because we're too familiar with somebody.
Nate Day: So actually Ella Hunt would be great for that because she's not a huge star.
Jay: yeah
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: i think I think in a since we're in a fictional wonderland anyway, i think in a film more focused on really drawing out and examining, you know, those last 48 hours or so,
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Wide Eyes, Queen's Gambit. Oh, Anya Taylor-Joy? Yeah, the the turn of... So rude. innocent, naive to...
Jay: yeah Yeah, definitely.
Nate Day: Like, if you if you if you truly leaned into... the the the joy, the the, oh, wait, this marriage will work because you murdered your wife.
Nate Day: I think she would do that brilliantly. She's pretty good at twisted, but she's a little bit too visually striking, I think. Agreed. Agreed. Like she's really got a look, you know what i mean? Yeah. she's She's very beautiful, but I mean, she doesn't look like anybody. Would not say mousy. Yeah. Yeah.
Jay: yeah
Nate Day: I don't think I have a good one for the protagonist. That's why I'm saying it needs to be somebody. I think Ella Hunt's a good poll. It's got to be somebody that we don't have a huge relationship to
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: as as like a star. Max. Max feels very interesting to me. I would enjoy. Okay.
Nate Day: What is the term? Humor me here.
Nate Day: Sticking with the he's 47, he's two times her age, and that's a problem. Ron Perlman. You love that guy.
Jay: But she should
Nate Day: he's He's like just sitting there. He knows two actors, Anne Hathaway and Ron Perlman. Not wrong. Hey, I have not suggested Dame Judi Dench for any of these roles yet.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Who would be a phenomenal Danvers?
Jay: but she should be mrs danvers
Nate Day: Yes! Who would be a phenomenal Danvers? Okay, Ron Perlman, but they don't anglicize him at all. He is like from Florida, has this estate, still has the weird cigar in his mouth from Sons of Anarchy.
Jay: yeah
Nate Day: And then, yeah, I drove a spike through the bottom of the boat because she cheated on me.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: So what?
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: You know?
Jay: I mean, you know, Leo could work in this role very well, actually.
Nate Day: Oof, duh. Oof, duh.
Jay: Like he's like, especially now he's the right age, but I think he could pull off like a moneyed, you know, but there's just like something he's a little slimy these days.
Nate Day: Unfortunately, yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Jay: Like, I think it could work.
Nate Day: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jay: Not
Nate Day: associated with ships sinking.
Jay: great point.
Nate Day: That was him in Titanic. Yeah, yeah. It just took me a minute.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: But yes, you're correct. I'm trying to look at guys that are in that age range, and I'm just not... Oh, Clive Owen's okay, actually, because he'd like... feels like an old money type guy.
Nate Day: But it has to be, I think the, I think the brilliance of this character as like a dynamic individual is they need to be for this story to work. And I'm just appalled at everything you've described of the next Netflix version. This max needs to convince you more or less that it is not only justifiable, but like, okay. And even laudable that he killed his wife.
Nate Day: You know what I mean? Yeah.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: And again, Cannavale is a good pick because he's very famous for playing gangsters. Cannavale would be perfect.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Who would, who would maybe, I mean, he's a great guy. He's a, he talk about an Nepo babies. He's like, uh, He was married to Lena Horne's kid for a while. I don't know who Lena Horne is.
Nate Day: And my computer just died. Let me look it up.
Jay: Actually, I don't know if I know Leonhorn either.
Nate Day: she was a jazz She was a jazz singer and an actress.
Jay: Oh.
Nate Day: L-I or L-E? L-E-N-A. Horne with an E. Anyway. Yeah, I think Cannavale's good.
Nate Day: Also, Ralph Fiennes, maybe? Ooh.
Jay: That could be fun.
Nate Day: You could use that Baltimore image. Yeah, bring some of that Red Dragon energy.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: What about... Red Dragon, the prequel to Silence of the Lambs. Starring Ray... Okay. Wait, have you not seen it? Have I seen a movie that you haven't seen? No, I haven't.
Nate Day: And it probably has a 20% on Rotten Tomatoes. love this for me. This is a big W.
Jay: Chris's favorite movie of 2021.
Nate Day: Yeah. Okay. I'm not entirely convinced myself, but... Cillian Murphy.
Nate Day: Sitting there smoking one cigarette after another. Maybe. He's always so introspective. Although that could work. 100%. But I don't know that Maxim is introspective so much as he's just like...
Jay: ed
Nate Day: This word means something different, but he's he's sort of he's closed off. I was going to say closeted, but I don't know. No, not that.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: No, but he's closed off because he's being interested because that's that's the brilliance of the reveal.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: You're sitting here viewing this three week charade. I've never said it that way in my life. Charade in Monte Carlo. And you're like, why is he being such a dick to her? Because in his mind, he is replaying the fact that he murdered Rebecca and he's still worried someone's going to find out.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: He didn't bury the body deep enough.
Jay: Yep.
Nate Day: Maybe. I just think that he has this quality of like, he's constantly stepped on. Killian Murphy? Yeah, he's never the winner. And Maxim, it comes from old money.
Nate Day: okays gotta be a yeah right broad shoulderer Okay. Okay.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah. No, I see what you mean. I mean, even in Oppenheimer, he was like, what the fuck did I just do? Yeah. No, no, no.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Okay. No, you... and see But i so I don't think that's as bad a pick as some of the other things you've mentioned. As Dame Judi Dench as Maxim?
Jay: Yeah. If, if it's, if it's between Ron Perlman and yeah,
Nate Day: I don't know that many people's names, okay?
Jay: I know that's why this is always the best part of the podcast. Yeah.
Nate Day: Uh-huh.
Nate Day: Danvers would be a really fun one to see a better a better casting. I'm saying the casting in a better version of. Yeah, something somebody really can't be.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: like Like Aubrey Plaza or something would even be Tim Curry. because Tim Curry as Danvers in the little French maid costume.
Jay: Fine, you know what? Gender swap the whole movie. Let's just go.
Nate Day: whole thing. the No, not the whole thing. Just that role.
Nate Day: I don't think he can even speak anymore, Chris. Tim Curry? Oh, that's too bad. Maybe would serve him well in this role. yeah I'm so glad you're not a casting director.
Nate Day: what did you people How many stars did you give the book good rates?
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Guys, I've got a career ahead of me.
Jay: That's a great great pivot. yep Let's talk about...
Nate Day: This, and I feel a little guilty about it, which is crazy. This woman's long dead.
Nate Day: i i
Nate Day: I have a justifiable explanation in my mind of all three options, three, four, or five. Oh, whoa. Okay. Because I can see a reread being very satisfying.
Nate Day: Yeah. That's actually something I said before we started recording is knowing that Jay was rereading.
Jay: a
Nate Day: I was like, I bet you everything comes out. Yeah. You know, it's like wringing out a towel.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: and You know, it's all coming. Yeah. i don't I've not convinced myself that I do intend to reread it. So for me, firmly a four. Okay.
Nate Day: Fantastic storyline. i don't i see why the pacing is the way it is. i would still, I think an editor could have helped her a little bit more. I mean, I'm sure she had an editor. I'm saying the editor could have done more. Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Day: How about you, Jay? Yeah.
Jay: Uh, it was a five, honestly, both times for me, I think I was so surprised at how good, like how good it was when I read it the first time. It was such a just a wonderful, just treat.
Jay: I think just because I was expecting, yeah, that was, I see why it's a classic, but it's not for me. And then to have it like be for me was just so so surprising.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah.
Jay: So it was a five star, uh, read both times for me.
Nate Day: Yeah. That's great. What about the movie?
Jay: For sure.
Nate Day: Yeah, that 2020 movie.
Jay: Oh, I mean, it's, there are some, I mean, Lily James is great, but other than that, there's, it doesn't have a lot going for it. So I don't know too.
Nate Day: Sure.
Nate Day: and
Jay: Like, I don't recommend like, it's not worth it.
Nate Day: Fair. Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: Okay.
Nate Day: Yeah. I think I would give the 1940 version i four as well. I do think it's a standout Hitchcock's filmography, maybe for the not the wrong reasons. But like I said, it's it's this weird.
Nate Day: inversion of what he not him does. And i think because of that and because of maybe some of that behind the scenes tension over the script, uh, I think you can pick up on some of those, those flaws.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Like, I don't think for a master of tension, i was like, why is she so freaked out by the, uh, what's called, like Letterhead or whatever. Oh, when she finds like the monogrammed. I was like, yeah, yeah you're in the dead lady's house, like you're going to find these things. And that's not and that's not a very Hitchcockian way to think about.
Nate Day: Like that really should have jolted me a little bit more, which is, but everything else is so perfect that I still want to give it a four.
Jay: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nate Day: I mean, it's a great movie. I just, among, considering we're talking about one of the greatest directors ever, I'm like, there's, you missed a couple shots. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's a lot, I mean, there's a lot of,
Nate Day: material there for him in particular. As you described it, I just got like a vivid image. Jay, you remember the part when when she like first looks around and like kind of has the conversation back to herself.
Nate Day: Like, oh, when she, uh, Max tells her he wants to go out for a walk. She says she doesn't have a raincoat. So he goes, oh, Frith, go get one of the Macintoshes from the, closet.
Jay: Oh, yeah.
Nate Day: And she's like, this is her coat. Now I know exactly what size her body was. This is her handkerchief with some lipstick.
Jay: Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Day: Oh, it's, it's,
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: verging on macabre yeah this description of, and those are her letters in the pigeonholes, and this is her blotter on her desk that I'm using, and this is... And to me, that should be a masterful Hitchcock scene of, like, no talking at all, looking around, and just so clearly having this horrifying realization.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: That that would work brilliantly on screen. I'm surprised you skipped it. Yeah, it just... It seems to me like maybe he struggled with her internal monologue in that stream of consciousness. I don't like narration in movies, so I'm not advocating for that here. But I do wonder, like I said, when she found the letter Rebecca's letterhead and was she like jumps out of her seat, and I was like, well, yeah, she just died. like You're going to find her stuff in the house. like that it wasn't That tension wasn't there, except in the i score is really told me of the movie is really what told me, like,
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: okay I'm supposed to be unsettled. yeah Maybe I'm looking at this to 2026 where I'm like, yeah, like I i find unexpected stuff all the time.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: That's not the surprise that she's finding it. The surprise is supposed to be that realization.
Jay: Well, the surprise is kind of her obsession. Like up to this point, she is like, i mean, in the book, she is ruminating on this constantly.
Nate Day: Yes. Yes.
Jay: Like all she can think about is Rebecca and how much Max loved her and all that sort of stuff.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: So it's just these little moments, like there's the signature in the poetry book.
Nate Day: Yes.
Nate Day: Oh
Jay: So like she also has that setup of like she's already seen the R, how like Rebecca writes it.
Nate Day: yeah.
Jay: Now it's on the letter. You know, so it's just I think the book does a really good job about like she is obsessing over this woman.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. in In the movie, it definitely feels less like she's obsessing and more like it's almost being imposed, which I think you sounds like maybe you could argue that that's certainly the case.
Jay: Oh.
Nate Day: This is both. And yeah, but I don't know that.
Jay: For sure. Yeah.
Nate Day: Like, I feel like the the character that I know, if if she could wave a magic wand and and everyone stops talking about Rebecca and the pictures are gone, she would she would do it.
Nate Day: Yeah. And it sounds like maybe that's different. The book version.
Jay: No, i think she would. I think that's i think that's right.
Nate Day: Okay. I think a TLBR version.
Jay: Because she wants to be Maxim's like only. Yeah.
Nate Day: yeah Okay, sure. Well, that's what that tension is what makes it. That's what causes the moral quandary of he just admitted to murder and we are happy for him.
Nate Day: It's that tension of her realization.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Oh, he never loved her. And you cannot have that tension without much initial implication of how much he loved her, how great she was. You need that first.
Nate Day: Yeah. Well then I'd be interested to think you should, you should watch it, Jay, and let us know what you think. And on, and
Jay: Yeah, it's definitely going on the list. i was I was sad I didn't get to watch it before we recorded because I really want to see how he handles some of that stuff.
Nate Day: yeah, yeah.
Nate Day: And some of the versions on YouTube, by the way, are actually really decent formats. There's some that are really shitty and like blurry. oh yeah. But the one I i found one, I think it was just the first search result was pretty crystal clear and looked and sounded good. And,
Nate Day: Yeah, so if you can put YouTube on the TV or whatever. And on that note, I would recommend, as long as you like Hitchcock, I think that's probably the gateway into this for recommendations, my recommendations.
Jay: Mm-hmm.
Nate Day: I think you'd like it, but you need to have understanding of Hitchcock to enjoy it. Because it is long and it's an old black and white movie, I can see a lot of people feeling very bored with the movie until the last 20 or 30 minutes.
Nate Day: But...
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: but Yeah. I mean, other, it it reminded me a little bit of Gone Girl too, where you're kind of like, what's what's happening? that' it should be.
Nate Day: But okay. Those are my recommendations. Well, follow that thought. Who would you recommend this to? Hitchcock fans. Yeah. I think, unfortunately, I think the 2020 movie is exactly encapsulating exactly what I'm trying to talk about. and In 2026, we don't,
Nate Day: consume stories, especially movies, visual stories, the same way that we used to. So this movie was extremely popular in 1940. I don't think people, I think they would say it's dreadfully boring if somebody that was not a cinephile and understood how Hitchcock tells stories or maybe you had read the book since you guys know that it's that sort of slow burn. You're prepared for it. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. But I, it's not like a blanket recommendation like so many other Hitchcock, like Vertigo and Rear Window. I'm like everybody. Okay. But this one, I'm like, I think you should understand. You need some preface. Hitchcockian storytelling or maybe you've read the book. Yeah. Yeah. yeah
Nate Day: Okay. Yeah. Jarrett. What about the Netflix movie? Jarrett. Is that what Jay is short for? yeah
Jay: Sorry, that's my real name. Yeah, that's...
Nate Day: Whoa, i never knew that. I thought you were just being a And this is the turn of the episode.
Nate Day: Also, Jay killed a guy.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Okay.
Nate Day: Noted.
Jay: I don't, I don't think I'd recommend the Netflix. I mean, maybe if you could like, I think if it was cast differently, you could maybe forgive like kind of a shitty movie.
Nate Day: Yeah. If he was the casting director.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: If Tim Curry was Danvers.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: He'd be like, whoa, this is a train wreck.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: I mean, no, it's just really like army hammer is so hard to get around.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Jay: Like you just can't like bypass that and like shut that part of your brain off.
Nate Day: You can't.
Jay: And then it doesn't pay off because the movie itself isn't that good. You could, you know, take a gummy and watch the movie and maybe have a fine time, but I don't recommend it.
Nate Day: Okay. Okay.
Jay: So
Nate Day: How about the book? Yeah.
Jay: The book, I mean, this is, I feel like Chris talks about this all the time. It's classics are hard, I think, for recommendations because you have to recommend it to somebody who like already, I think has a baseline in classics and has the capability to kind of get through, particularly a slow start, like to kind of power through the slow start a little bit.
Nate Day: Okay.
Jay: That being said, I think that the book pays off so well and it's worth a read if you know that you can kind of get there, I think.
Nate Day: Okay.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yes. Cool. Well, that was a great discussion. Yeah. That might be our longest discussion.
Jay: ye but Yeah.
Nate Day: undoubtedly. Except about maybe cats. Hold on. I'm going to recommendations. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Jeez. What Jay said. So that was the episode. No, I. Okay. What's interesting here.
Nate Day: Had I read it, you are absolutely not the person I would have thought of. So it's so fascinating to me that you're the one who recommended it to me. That's cool. The other person that was like vocally excited that I was reading it was Brett Shand, who also would be penultimate to you on the list of people I would think would not enjoy it.
Jay: Yeah.
Jay: Oh, mm-hmm.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Oh, I'm seeing a trend here. It's a bit of an enigma. Yeah. I totally agree.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Classics, tough. i would have a hard time suggesting it to someone who's like, I'm going to get more into reading as a hobby. Like, great, here's Rebecca. I don't know that that would be hard.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: think it would be this line of people now. People that I already know are into reading and who would perhaps ignore this title because it is outside of their normal wheelhouse.
Nate Day: I think I would give the impassioned plea of slow burn at the start.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: It's worth the wait. Try it.
Jay: Yeah, completely agree.
Nate Day: That's kind of interesting that we all three landed on the same. Yeah. you It's hard to recommend without prior knowledge. Yeah. yeah Yes, yes, yes, yes. Interesting.
Nate Day: Weird, weird story, but I mean. Brilliant. Yeah. Masterful. Yeah.
Jay: Yeah, amazing.
Nate Day: Cool. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Jay. And thank you all for listening to this conversation. This was so fun. We should do another Hitchcock. Maybe you're our resident Hitchcock adaptation guy.
Jay: We could do that.
Nate Day: Did he do One Flew Over the Kruku's Nest?
Jay: Yeah, what's next?
Nate Day: No. Was that Kubrick? Yeah. Okay. We'll find one. Was it Kubrick? I don't know. But yeah, well we'd love to have you back. yeah This was great.
Jay: I've been meaning to watch a Rear Window for the longest time. So if there's a book that that was based off of, I just, i only i only know it from the memes.
Nate Day: That's a great one. i'll look I'll check it out. just
Jay: So i it's been on the list for a long time.
Nate Day: okay Yeah, that one's... It is memeable, but it's really good. Talk about talk about a thriller.
Jay: yeah
Nate Day: Next up, we have an American, like I said, I believe an American author.
Jay: Yeah.
Nate Day: Sapphire and her novel Push, which was, of course, adapted into... The film colloquially colloquially known as Precious, but it's actually called Precious based on Push by Sapphire. That sucks. It's the title of the movie.
Nate Day: So we look forward to talking about that. We look forward to having Jay back. And thank you for listening.
Jay: Bye.
Nate Day: Bye.
