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Reflecting on Atlanta and Baltimore Gentrification and Community Development with Derek Moore
175 Plays7 months ago
This week on Defying Gentrification, I, your host Kristen Jeffers, talks to our first guest, Derek Moore, who came by to talk about their experiences with land use and gentrification. Stay tuned to the end to hear what I did after having this conversation! Plus our hot topic this week is how the remaining residents of Chinatown who are Chinese have to take a long bus ride to a grocery store that truly services them. I recorded that part at a store that serves the same role for me and reflect a bit on how that’s affected me over the years, as well as issue a call-to-action for the news site that it came from, as I usually do.
About our guest!
Derek Moore (he/they) is a Central West Baltimore-based Urban Planner and Non-Profit Development professional. He grew up in an Army family and has since lived in many cities across North America. Derek is a transportation advocate - co-founder of local urbanist group Friends of the Underground, Greening chair of Madison Park Improvement Association, and City and Regional Planning master’s student at Morgan State University.
Our hot topic reference article for this week — https://wamu.org/story/24/04/16/dc-chinatown-chinese-residents-leave-city-grocery-shop/
The WAMU takedown that I somewhat reference — https://www.washingtonian.com/2024/04/19/why-did-wamu-close-dcist/
An analysis and webinar on the lack of grocery stores in Black neighborhoods, focused on the Washington region (DMV) — https://ggwash.org/view/89226/premium-grocery-stores-are-missing-from-the-regions-high-income-black-neighborhoods
Learn more about Eden Center — https://edencenter.com/stores/
(Note, they do NOT have an H Mart, but there is one nearby in Fairfax County, VA)
Purchase from Kristen's Bookshop.org store and support the podcast!
Never miss an episode, subscribe to our Substack or on LinkedIn
You can also find Kristen @blackurbanist or @kristpattern.
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Transcript
Introduction to Defying Gentrification
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back to Defying Gentrification. This is a podcast where we defy gentrification. Number one, it's hosted by myself, Kristen Jeffers. And beyond just thinking about gentrification and all its tentacles, we also touch on all aspects of land back, land use, community, transportation, et cetera.
Guest Introduction: Derek Moore
00:00:20
Speaker
And this week we have our first guest, Derek Moore. We're going to have a really wide ranging conversation about really urbanism in the South and Atlanta and Baltimore and changes. Good stuff. So definitely stay tuned for that.
Hot Topic: Grocery Store Access
00:00:35
Speaker
And before we get into the interview this week, we, I can't not do a hot topic and this week's hot topic is definitely hot.
00:00:44
Speaker
It's about lack of grocery and lack of culturally competent grocery stores. So as usual, I do my intro here. We take a little ad break and then we get into our hot topic. So yes, take a break with me and we'll be right back after I pay a couple bills.
00:01:09
Speaker
Bookshop.org is my primary sponsor right now. I'm an affiliate and it's a wonderful place to go buy books if you don't want to support that website that starts with an L. I am constantly adding to the collection of books that are available on Bookshop.org.
00:01:26
Speaker
And usually, I like to highlight a couple books that come up in the conversation. So yeah, definitely stay tuned to the other two ad breaks in the show where I recommend two books in particular that are very relevant to our conversation today. And so if you want to find my part of Bookshop.org, of course, you can just go to Bookshop.org. There's a lot of great bookstores there, a lot of great people to support. But if you want to support this platform in need, Bookshop.org.
00:02:04
Speaker
And now, let's get into our hot topic.
Case Study: DC's Chinatown Grocery Issues
00:02:09
Speaker
Welcome back to Defining Gentrification. I'm your host, Kristen Jeffers, and this week for our Hot Topic, I decided to record this. I'm literally sitting in the bowels in a parking deck in one of the few Harris Teeter groceries that is actually in the District of Columbia. And this store for me is one of these stores that seems to think that it can move away from me.
00:02:33
Speaker
And that's why I thought this would be a great place to start this week's Hot Topic. This week's Hot Topic is about the WAMU article about the folks in Chinatown DC who have to go to the grocery store in Virginia.
00:02:51
Speaker
Well, yes, there is this Harris Teeter that I'm sitting at that's accessible via bus line. There's another Harris Teeter that's on the other direction in the district. There's a safe way that they can walk to that's still technically kind of in the Mount Vernon Triangle Chinatown area. However,
00:03:11
Speaker
A lot of things that are specific to Chinese cuisine, a lot of fruits and vegetables are unaffordable. And many of the folks who still live in Chinatown DC are on fixed incomes, social security, family members helping them with funding. And so yes, this article in WAMU details
00:03:36
Speaker
how they have a special bus that comes and picks up everyone, and they drive them to Falls Church. Falls Church is home to a lovely complex called Eden Center that's really centered on Vietnamese businesses, as well as a number of Asian groceries, H-Mart being one of them, and then some other smaller independent grocers, produce vendors, meat vendors, etc.
00:04:06
Speaker
For context, this isn't like they're just driving across the bridge. So if you know DC geography, you know exactly what I'm talking about. But if you don't know DC geography, basically Chinatown DC is about a block from the White House. It's definitely not far from the Potomac River. On a good day, it would be about like a
00:04:32
Speaker
20 minute, maybe 20, 30 minute walk depending on like what angle you're approaching Chinatown. Chinatown is the center of Chinatown is definitely where the arch, we have a friend, we do have a friendship arch and we do have businesses mostly kind of corporatey stock exchange and some maybe private businesses that aren't Chinese owned.
00:04:56
Speaker
And they all have like the symbols. So like you have like one good example, we have a Chick-fil-A in Chinatown, DC, and it has the lettering on it that says Chick-fil-A in Chinese, supposedly. This is definitely one of those cases where yes, there's letters, there's a friendship arch, there's a metro station, and yes, our hockey and basketball arena, which will be staying there. Those of you who may have been following DC
00:05:25
Speaker
uh building politics may know that that that arena was almost abandoned and it's been it was the big story from around the christmas holidays through really just about three or four weeks ago when
00:05:41
Speaker
Virginia relented to let that team move to Virginia, and DC gave an incentive package for that stadium to stay. But of course, this isn't necessarily about the stadium, but let's think about it. Where the people have to go to the grocery store or where they are bused to,
00:06:01
Speaker
That is that is past where that stadium would be. That stadium was going to be a waterfront stadium. This is still you get you get on to our highway and it's a good 30 minute drive if you're driving by yourself. And so the bus that the the article highlights
00:06:22
Speaker
is a private bus that's arranged by some of the organizations that are helping the Chinese communities that's still living there in Chinatown have as good of experience as they can. And there is, before y'all come after me, there is a Metro bus that comes and picks them up and can, but that bus is easily an hour, hour and a half.
00:06:49
Speaker
Have you ever tried to carry your frozen foods anywhere for an hour, hour and a half? This is why, in theory, you're supposed to, in urban neighborhoods, at least have a corner store, a corner store that has fresh fruits and vegetables and your frozen goods that's right down the block so that you can walk or even just roll maybe a wagon if you, if
00:07:12
Speaker
you know, walking with these or you can't carry weight or, you know, you can roll, you can at least roll into these stores. Of course, you know, New York, New York still has this. New York still has obviously the Bodega top style corner stores, what we would call convenience stores down South, your 7-Eleven type stores in other places besides New York. I know there's 7-Eleven in New York, but it's more, it's more private type, like individuals own those stores.
00:07:41
Speaker
and then same with that even the full service grocery stores that's more individualized you don't have as many chains even new york-based wagmans isn't as much of a presence in like manhattan and brooklyn it's there i know there's one in brooklyn now but it's less of a thing well here in dc what we have set up is we pretty much have all chain grocers we have a lot of 7-elevens we have a handful of sort of the private
00:08:07
Speaker
corner what we also call them corner stores corner convenience bodega type stores owned by individual people chinatown dc of course used to have more chinese residents and they used to actually have a grocery store that spoke to the needs and the cuisine chinese cuisine as well as to the prices that were available however that has changed and in that changing in that changing now these folks
00:08:36
Speaker
are food deserts. This is a food desert for them.
Exploring Food Deserts
00:08:40
Speaker
They go to Safeway, but they might not be able to afford it. And we've already had at least one Harris Teeter's closed in the district. CVSs are closing. You go into some giant Safeways, either the food is expensive or it's not all of the food of a certain cuisine. And yes, now the Safeway that's closest to my block has gates up and makes you scan your receipts.
00:09:06
Speaker
And yes, we know people are taking things out of the store, but we are also in a crisis where people don't have enough
00:09:14
Speaker
food assistance when we ended the pandemic emergency. And even prior to ending the pandemic emergency in the United States, some states, some jurisdictions are already releasing the increased food aid that was given to people while the expectation was that everybody stays home. Everybody might, people might have lost jobs with stores being other non-essential stores being closed. Of course, we know the grocery stores were essential and we were clapping for grocery workers back then.
00:09:44
Speaker
Now here we are in this state of affairs with this. And so yes, this is why I wanted to make this my hot topic. I will include this link to this WAMU article in the show notes. I will also note that WAMU, this is the kind of coverage we do want from you.
00:10:00
Speaker
Yes, this is a sad story, but sometimes we do need sad stories because these sad stories will provide solutions, bearing witness to the things that we need as communities of color, even when they're sad, is what we need in order to grow as people and as Earthlings.
00:10:20
Speaker
Yeah, we can have happy stories, but sometimes we do need to bear witness to things like Chinese people in a neighborhood not having losing this piece. And yes, even in a world of Orientalism and exoticism, day to day, the actual living of people is not necessarily guaranteed. We are happy here in D.C.
00:10:42
Speaker
They just have a Chinatown with letters, an arch, and one residence, and only of people who can really afford it, and some community members taking their legacy family properties and trying to cash in on the global economy, but not taking care of their own people.
00:10:59
Speaker
That is my hot topic for this week. Yes, I didn't spend as much time on the hot topic this week because yes, we are about to have a wonderful, wonderful conversation with Derek Moore about Baltimore and Atlanta and being black kids, black queer kids and adults going through gentrification. And yes, as I promised,
00:11:19
Speaker
They are going to challenge me a little bit on some things that I've said and perceptions I've had. And of course, I'll come back at the end of our conversation and talk about something that I did as a result of recording this conversation a few weeks ago. With that, I am going to do what I normally do. I've got some books for you in an intermediate segment. So listen up. And then after that, we will be back with our interview. This is Defining Gingerfication with Kristen Jeffers. We'll be back.
00:11:44
Speaker
So, if you want to really get ready for our next part of the Piecast, I have quite the book for you over at Bookshop.org. Yeah, Bookshop, as I told you earlier in the Piecast, where I have my store and where you can support me, it's over at Bookshop.org slash shop slash Kristin E. Jeffers. And yeah, spell my name, K-R-I-S-T-E-N-E-J-E-F-F-E-R-S.
00:12:09
Speaker
And so I wanted to highlight a book that talks about the suburbanization of Baltimore as it started way back in the 1800s. Yeah, in the 1880s. It is called Not in My Neighborhood. And it really does lay out that suburbanization is not new. Segregation was definitely not new. And as I mentioned in our last episode that
00:12:38
Speaker
Baltimore was the lead in a lot of these residential issues. So go and read it, download it over at Bookshop.org, support the show and get read for the rest of our talk or just hang out and we'll be in our interview part next. All right, y'all, welcome back to the Define Gentrification podcast.
00:13:07
Speaker
Once again, I'm your host, Kristen Jeffers. And as I have been promising for the last couple of episodes, we will be having guests and we have a guest this week to talk about their experiences with gentrification and the various things. So.
00:13:25
Speaker
Derek Moore, why don't you tell who you are?
Derek Moore's Background and Urbanism Views
00:13:29
Speaker
And of course, get us started. Like just in general, maybe get us started with childhood experiences or, you know, if you're if you want to rant about how gentrification is bothering you today, that's also great. But just in general, get us started and tell the folks why you decided to come on the Defining Gentrification podcast and tell your gentrification story. All right. Yeah. So hello, everyone. My name is Derek Moore.
00:13:54
Speaker
I am a Baltimore resident, but I'm an army brat. So I grew up mainly along the East Coast, but I don't claim just one state. I kind of see myself as, you know, American, all the states, you know, claiming them all. So I moved to Baltimore four years ago from Brooklyn, New York.
00:14:16
Speaker
before that Atlanta, and then before that Sacramento, California. So did a little bit of traveling post, you know, graduating high school being in college, where I went to Georgia Southern University, Statesboro, Georgia, the armpit of Georgia as I affectionately like to call it.
00:14:35
Speaker
About 45 minutes from Savannah to the east. So a very interesting place to be to just soak up black history and just a lot of interesting things that are happening down there.
00:14:50
Speaker
But yeah, so I met Kristin, thankfully, at a birthday celebration for another friend and fellow transit enthusiast. The incomparable Jerome Horn, who has been on my original podcast. And yes, I am asking Jerome to come on this podcast among other people. But Jerome said, interview Derek first.
00:15:16
Speaker
They've got the story that we need to hear first. I'm just me. I'm like, okay, Jerome. But I want to go back to talking about Georgia Southern. So I, I love Savannah, like it really is a beautiful city. And it was so interesting. The last time I was in Savannah was for the seeing you and I believe it was 2018. Okay.
00:15:45
Speaker
and I was on the panel and I was on the stage and like a lot of these spaces and this is why there's been gaps in like me doing these kinds of programmings because when I would make them in the past, I would have to represent everybody. And so I was in a situation where I had to represent black, you know, I wasn't out to the world, well, at least I wasn't out to like people outside of DC yet. So a lot of my professional community did not know I was queer. I wasn't, I didn't really,
00:16:14
Speaker
hone into being non-binary until a little bit later. Thank you, pandemic. But like, who knows? And then, of course, we were on the stage representing the, not the gentrification, but you could say it was a gentrification because it was generations with a white boomer male, straight, white, straight, Midwestern,
00:16:41
Speaker
Gen Xer, male, like, you know, and me.
00:16:46
Speaker
very femme presenting, very Southern black, you know, and woman's one of the genders. So I'll still say woman and just that energy's there. That's what I'm perceived as. And the thing is like, when I'm around my black family, I don't have that trouble with like absorbing those roles, but definitely Savannah was very comforting, the tree cover.
00:17:13
Speaker
every just they tell you that you can't have urbanism with trees. Savannah proves that wrong. Yeah, it really does. And I like it. And I also wanted to highlight, you know, my, my cousins actually working down there at Georgia Southern.
00:17:31
Speaker
Yeah, loves it, has been in Student Affairs. And I think it's Georgia Southern. They'll listen to this and correct me. But yeah, they're at a university in that region that I believe is Georgia Southern. And they love it. And they've been doing their doctorate at UGA. So yeah, they've been doing that drive. They've been doing that drive. It's a brutal drive. Yes, and coming. Yeah, I avoided doing internships in Atlanta just because I did not want to do that drive.
00:17:59
Speaker
That was a wild drive, because what I ended up doing was the friend who was picking me up to drive me down lived in Chattanooga. Oh my goodness. Yeah, they drove from Chattanooga, picked me up at the airport in Atlanta, the, you know, that wonderful urban and small of an airport that's connected to MARTA. So, you know, if MARTA could just go all the way to Savannah and it just feeds you down,
00:18:26
Speaker
the road and track to connect you properly. Greyhound, you know, there's even a Greyhound station in Statesboro. And I'm like, that's the market where students would want to make that connection. But yes, what do I know? And so you know how it is when and of course, those who've driven on the coastlines. Yeah. And you notice the trees are getting smaller and smaller and smaller and then do have a clear cut.
00:18:54
Speaker
This is another place where you can see clear across the land. But depending on where you are, you're not seeing beachfront. You're seeing a swamp. Yeah, I always tell people, Savannah, I guess people, when they haven't been there, they think it's on the coast, like a beach city. But no, it's like more of an inland river city. Yes. And Tybee Island is there. Yes. And that's where you go. Well, you can go not all year round, but it's pretty warm most of the year.
00:19:23
Speaker
Just like right now, why is it 84 degrees and thunderstorms? And then it looks like it's still 84 degrees. Cause the, the day we're recording this, it's, um, it's April 15th. Of course my taxes are like bothering me. And of course that is a storm in my head and it's a storm outside. And that was, and that was the thing I was like, gosh, sit like that region in the South, like calls me in such a way, but.
Gentrification in the South
00:19:53
Speaker
It's, it is still the South. And one of those things is like, that's probably why it took me so long to kind of embrace this concept of gentrification. Because one of the things we notice in the South is there's, it seems like it's unlimited land. Gentrification's racial element looks different. We have, we had other things that have happened.
00:20:17
Speaker
Uh, in a future episode, I will talk about this pipeline or depending on when this airs, I mean, I've already talked about urban renewal to gentrification, at least sort of the state side. Yeah. But then here you go. And you get into this urban planning profession and people are talking about gentrification and all of a sudden you notice that they're asking you about it more often, but your connection, like at least you've lived, you were army brat and you lived in other cities and you lived on installations and you. Yeah.
00:20:46
Speaker
in like towns and compounds and seeing these different types of urbanisms. Yeah it's been an interesting interesting life journey let me say. Yeah but that but yeah there's the resource but I do put the listeners to understand like for me it was like
00:21:02
Speaker
OK, why is it such so bad? Don't we want things? Because, you know, we've been in, you know, we've been trapped on the campus and there's only a few things on the campus. And then, you know, I'm avoiding Atlanta and we were like, what is so, you know, Atlanta is what it is, but there's still opportunities. And then you talk to somebody who said they moved to Atlanta and then you ask them really hard and you find out it's Marietta.
00:21:31
Speaker
or it's Morrow or it's Stone Mountain. That's real. Yeah, I feel like when I when I moved there, it was right after I so I graduated. I walked across the stage. I had two graduations. I walked across the stage and then I finished my credit. So those were two separate. Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:51
Speaker
But after I walked across the stage in May of 2014, I started AmeriCorps in CCC, which is National Civilian Community Corps. And that's kind of like structure like Peace Corps, but it's in the United States. So you get deployed to a part of the country.
00:22:08
Speaker
I was deployed to Sacramento, California. So we were part of the Western region, which is my first time being on the West Coast. I was, let me tell you, when I got that letter and I was like, I didn't know where I, you know, where I was post-graduation or what I was doing right before. Man, I was so happy. I was like, well, that's it, like life moving to California, like going from Georgia to California.
00:22:32
Speaker
And, you know, in that program, you know, they pay for your place to stay and all your food and, you know, being in that age group of, you know, being chronically broke. That was a, yeah, it was also its own blessing. But so that really shaped how I like experienced cities at a younger age being supported by this.
00:22:53
Speaker
you know, kind of paid internship type, you know, situation. Sacramento is a weird transit city, like it does have a couple rail lines, but I mean, all of us who are like the programs geared toward like 18 to 24 year olds, so like everybody's in an age group of
00:23:11
Speaker
you know, being more scrappy. So we used the transit system, although like now I'm like, that was kind of inconvenient. Like I don't think I would have walked 20 minutes just to get to the train station to get downtown now. But then we were like, yeah, let's do it. 20 minutes, it's a train. And we all moved from like different parts of the country as well, right? So we were experiencing city together. And when we may have moved from a place that didn't even have bus service, right? Or if it did, it came like once a day or something, right?
00:23:41
Speaker
in Columbus, where my family moved to, where they decided to settle, I guess, eventually. It's the third largest, no, now it's the second largest city in Georgia. And it only has a bus system that runs like once every hour, if that. And my parents lived near their first house that they were fortunate enough that they were able to build both of the houses that they owned. So I've always very,
00:24:09
Speaker
you know glad to walk on the shoulders of my parents who worked really hard and grew up in rural poverty mind you like they grew up you know rural Mississippi and rural uh well a couple different places because you know I got a father stepfather you know yeah you know black families yeah let's go um but just having all of those influences um bringing into my adult life
00:24:31
Speaker
living in California at that, coming from Statesboro to Sacramento, was that eye-opening urbanism experience for me. And then also, the most pivotal part of that was my first semester of my senior year in 2014, my car that I had since I was 17 at that point. So from like 21 to 17, I had a car. That was a hand-me-down car, but it came in handy. I took care of it.
00:25:01
Speaker
It just, it just went out on me, you know, like lost the car completely. I was about to graduate. Like you live in like Southeast Georgia. You need a car. Like it's not even a, it's not really an option that you're not having a car living there. And I hadn't experienced anything like, you know, not having a car since then. Both of my parents always owned cars since they were in the army. They could, they can get their car problems fixed sooner. Right. And so that happened to the car. They were able to fix it.
00:25:29
Speaker
So I never had to go without a car until this moment, really. And that was like, you know what? Like, maybe I should find a place where I don't need a car to get by, right? And then that California experience happened right after that. So I had some, I guess, like, fateful moments that kind of led me into, like, urbanism light, right? Had, like, urbanism with spinning wheels on.
00:25:55
Speaker
No. And I want to let me pause you there because that's there's a lot of overlap with my story. Like for me, it was my parents would not get me a car until I graduated from NC State. So I graduated from NC State a semester early into December of 2007. I started in the fall of 2004. Like I was so driven. Everything clearly three and a half years and probably part of it was like, OK, well, maybe my life will start after this. Now, I love being on campus because we had
00:26:24
Speaker
We had campus bus system where our campus is so big because we're one of the flagships. So we had, and not only did we have our campus bus system, the Wolf line, we also had, um, now this was predates the air that target was on Hillsborough street, like our main drag, but we had a K mark still Wolf line would take you to the K mark and the Wolf line would take you to Bojangles and cook out like that's an outside of the dining halls.
00:26:51
Speaker
Chick-fil-A was on campus. Taco Bell was on campus. Oh, wow. Ooh, I don't think I would have survived freshman year with the Taco Bell on the campus. Well, honestly, that was the thing because we had, and that's it, just like we had so many things self-contained. I could walk the Harris Teeter like a few blocks away, or I could get on the bus and Food Lion was right there. And of course,
00:27:15
Speaker
for the folks who, young folks who can't fathom the fact that there was no food delivery, like easy food delivery, like you were getting like Domino's, Papa John's, or one of those little things. Some of those little places owned like the main little college drag was delivered because they knew, one, there was another kid like driving and that was their job. And two, that was, everything was there and then you were on meal plan and all those things, everything's so self-contained.
00:27:45
Speaker
That's interesting. Yeah and the Georgia Southern you know like I feel like as opposed to more campuses that I'm noticing like we're very integrated into the town of Statesboro so like Georgia Southern was about like 20,000 and it was sort of it was in town but like more not quite like in the center but like off to the side. Yeah we were off to the side too. We off to the side.
00:28:07
Speaker
Yeah. So, but, but, you know, students lived in Statesboro, like they rented houses because it was affordable, you know, so it was affordable. And so people integrated into the town. And I feel like that, that made the, now transit wasn't any better for that reason. Sadly, our, our transit system, they had like a couple of little buses that would go around, but like it wasn't, you might as well just walk really. No, cause we had, well, the thing is like NC state has its core campus.
00:28:36
Speaker
And it's core boundaries and that's where most of the undergraduate campus was in the mid aunts. The government like the state of North Carolina magically got a whole other parcel. Our governor is also an alum of the school and really is proud of it. And so they had this excess parcel. Some of it is now Dix Park where Dreamville happens.
00:28:58
Speaker
Another part of it became what's called the Centennial Campus. Now, when I was an undergrad, it was mainly just going to be like a baby Research Triangle Park, specifically for the Raleigh community because, you know, the original park was built to be like the resource for all of the main three schools.
00:29:18
Speaker
That's why it's called the research triangle or the triangle because of the schools are the points of the triangle. But basically the schools also like to compete with each other. So now that's like now there's like this whole, cause of course there's two food lines at service campus and those two, one of those food lines is by the other Centennial and Centennial has like this fancy like golf course.
00:29:43
Speaker
and the chancellor lives out there now, and there's like a dorm there. There's a second bell tower, because of course our tradition is lighting it red, as many people learned during this whole March Madness, we light our bell tower red. There were actually probably two celebrations. Now the old one got promoted in the core campus and the old campus where the chancellor used to live and there's other things, but there's literally so much land asset
00:30:09
Speaker
of this university. Literally NC State could be taken out of Raleigh or they could de-annex everything kind of west of downtown on that. And that's the other weird thing about Raleigh. Raleigh's downtown literally is down. It is the bottom of the city.
00:30:26
Speaker
Yeah, I actually went to Raleigh a couple of, like last month, actually, and went downtown. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, and once you get like, if you, and then you got Raleigh Union Station, and you probably rode through, if you took the train, if you took the train. We walked, yeah, I walked, I walked by because, you know, transit nerd, I was like, what's, you know, what's going on in this Amtrak station now? That Union Station wasn't existing. It was a different one. It was not the functionality.
00:30:54
Speaker
Yeah, they have a little urban outfitters down there, like a couple little restaurants. I'm like, okay, you know, that was not the Raleigh now that was building because everybody was sitting there coding in their dorms and since they were providing us so many dorms and they had built us our own little technology campus and the engineering school was over there and I did do some work in the comms departments of the engineering schools
00:31:18
Speaker
All of that is there. And then, of course, my uncle has a pretty big role in like working with like manufacturing and helping manufacturers stay intact. And that's actually through the university. So there's there's all these things like we have this whole self contained university.
00:31:33
Speaker
And in having that self-contained university, it's a city within a city. And so you're sheltered. And so yeah, you don't really have to leave leaving as optional. And yes, there's an ecosystem. And yes, we used to be able to use our student ID cards and get on Raleigh transit, but we didn't need to, we really didn't need to leave.
00:31:53
Speaker
So I definitely relate to that culture shock and I definitely didn't exactly need the vehicle, but I was having to get rides to Walmart because Walmart was still kind of outside of the range. So it's definitely friending people who had vehicles for the Walmart run. Target was kind of just out there and the Target at the time, I think they reopened it, but they basically like.
00:32:14
Speaker
shut one target down and reopened another like yeah just and it's on the black side of town because you know Target seems to be allergic to us as well and of course now targets right there on campus little classic bowling out like it's it's just so weird to watch this city within a city yeah ball and you're at your young years and you're that that to me was my exposure to urbanism
00:32:39
Speaker
But it was also interesting to talk about like your first few years out of college because for me, my first few years was that was my OK, maybe I don't want to depend on my car. We had I have moved from campus to an apartment complex.
00:32:57
Speaker
that was just east of the boundaries of the legal RTP. And in 2008, it was not legal to build housing inside of the actual legalized triangle. It was Sheraton Research Triangle Park, restaurants. I think somehow there's a Walmart on the edge, but like everything's on the edge. And so apartment buildings, they had started to sort of build those quasi gardens where there are box.
00:33:23
Speaker
they're trying to make you think it's like a city building but there's still the um the breezeway still there like it is in the south like the parking lot's still there there's no connectivity they're just popping up they're like they're they're still gardens because they're like little garden complexes right clusters with no connectivity
00:33:44
Speaker
you're still dealing with that the original terrain of the roads you're dealing with like rural areas and they're all spread out or you're going to i'm going to south point mall and there's a collection of things there super targets there but i have to get in the car like there's and thankfully i had it but i felt like i had moved the world away because
00:34:05
Speaker
for i-40 at rush hour and i-4 and 540 pre and post toll and then we didn't have the 85 connector yet we didn't have and then of course the saga of getting regional rail and the triangle yeah and so we were i if i had originally if i had stayed in school through my full semester the plan was that my senior semester spring semester i was supposed to have been able to walk out of my dorm
00:34:34
Speaker
And our light rail was going to be right there at the stop. So there was this anticipation for a lot of people, not a lot of people realize, because of course it's been here since I've really dug up the full lore of like how I got into this.
Transit and Urban Development in Raleigh and Atlanta
00:34:49
Speaker
That was me. I was waiting for this train to come. And then Amtrak was already coming through the campus right by the dorm. There's been several times I've lived right next to the train tracks. And I think part of it has been like, OK, this is urbanism, living next to the train. Never mind now how it's rattling. And then, of course, to fast forward, well, I do want to talk about it later, but I do want to also put in the universe
00:35:18
Speaker
Even in Baltimore City, I lived underneath the tunnel. I lived underneath the tunnel there, too. Oh, wow. I actually live on top of the old BNP tunnel. My house is directly on top of it. And sometimes late at night or really early in the morning, I'll hear a train whistle.
00:35:38
Speaker
i'm like where oh yeah it's right underneath me yeah like i know i lived under the active tunnel that they're replacing right okay and it's and at four at four thirty in the morning like clockwork did you kill nine thirty at night because
00:35:55
Speaker
Well, you know, and as you've seen the upper end, that's why when we were at the birthday party, we got in the car cause we weren't sure like what all of y'all's plans were. We thought we might have another bar in us, which we did not. Cause, and that's the thing is so weird because you, you get introduced at a young age to urbanism move around.
00:36:18
Speaker
And then you get into, well, I think this is a good time to talk about the Atlanta chapter because Atlanta is a very interesting- Definitely. It's a very interesting setup. So let's talk about Atlanta. Yeah, so I moved there after living in Mexico for four months. I did those couple credits, my walk across the stage graduation and my credits graduation. So the credits graduation happened in the fall of 2015.
00:36:51
Speaker
got re-enrolled and got my whole degree like turned into like an online degree. So I could finish it. I could finish those last couple credits online. I had to change majors, but by that point I was like, just give me the piece of paper. And so I went my life. But I was able to take classes, one with one of my favorite professors. Like she had started her tenure as an online professor for the sociology department. So I was lucky that I got to take a class with her.
00:37:09
Speaker
And I got my...
00:37:18
Speaker
And then a couple other classes that were like about welfare studies and just different classes that were actually really interesting that I was like, where were y'all when I was in the school and wanted to take these interesting classes? But I enjoyed my time. I got connected to this website called workaway.com.
00:37:40
Speaker
And it's basically where you go somewhere. They pay for your place this day and give you food and you do tasks for them. So I got hooked up with this hostel in this town called Salulita in West Mexico. It's near Puerto Vallarta. It's like a little, little city that's kind of a satellite to that. And yeah, just kind of stayed there for three months while I did those couple classes online.
00:38:06
Speaker
And what Mexico was like urbanism without rail that I was like okay so there's really no reason why we can't have this but like Mexican people are super hardworking they like they they getting it done they're going to do what it takes to get to where they need to go.
00:38:23
Speaker
Yeah. And the frills, they're like, okay, you know, we good. We don't really need all the frills. We get to where we need to go. So like the little, the buses that you pay like a couple pesos for to get from Salio Lita to part of our area, like whipping through a jungle and the bus was, the bus was like this big. And yeah, it was interesting in that, like, I was like, well, it could, it runs pretty often. People relied on it. Like it worked, you know,
00:38:49
Speaker
And then in the US, Greyhound's hanging on by a thread, right? Even though it's confusing why we have to have it. I mean, at least it's doing better than Megabus. For me, I had my car. I had that first Honda Accord from 2008 until 2015 when I moved to Kansas City. I drove it to Kansas City.
00:39:14
Speaker
My mom and I got a rental and followed me. My cousin actually sat in the car with me.
00:39:22
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that was just nice little bonding. Yeah, a little family road trip. A little family road trip because I needed that family with me because it was some questionable things that I saw. I mean, yeah, that's a real southern route right there. You went from when that was North Carolina to there. Yeah, you go through, you go up through West Virginia, then you cross, you actually cross into Kansas City through Illinois.
00:39:46
Speaker
Indiana, and then all the way across Missouri, you go through St. Louis. And so we stopped at St. Louis on the Illinois side, went to a subway. And I'm getting excited. I'm like, I'm almost there. Yay. This is just like crossing from Harley to Charlton. No.
00:40:04
Speaker
four more hours of desolation. And we had stopped the night before in Louisville. We stayed in Louisville. We drove from Greensboro to Louisville to Beckley. That was a stop. And of course, that part of the trip was beautiful. Then when the mountains go away, then when the rock formations go away, and it's just flat,
00:40:26
Speaker
It was telling. And honestly, this was also the same summer that the whole situation with Sandra Bland happened. And of course, thankfully I was not alone. But when I was getting tired of Kansas City and I wanted to come back East, I did not feel like driving myself again.
00:40:41
Speaker
Now, I had a friend who actually drove herself back to D.C., but she had her cat, at least. Yeah. They didn't have no kind of living creature to do this with. Everybody's like, we just got you to Kansas City. Why are you trying to move to D.C.? You know, we we did this for you once and they paid for you. Why are you waiting your job? Why are you doing all this? You know, the Black families. That's real. It's real.
00:41:06
Speaker
And that, and that's the thing, like it's, but what I was finding was the culture shocks. And I think it sounded like adjusting to Sacramento and Mexico wasn't as much of a culture shock. And of course those programs are great. Cause you're like young enough, you're not having to scramble for food. They at least told you where to get somewhere to eat and stay. But of course I'm, even though my company, well, it's really, it was on a nonprofit.
00:41:35
Speaker
They were needing to diversify. Yeah. So the idea was like, okay, Kristen's the black urbanist. Maybe we could put her here. You know, magic will happen. I don't think they had comprehended at one. They were going to have to move me cross country. I was building a brand here on the East coast. Like my, you know, my core people. I also was already looking at DC, the partner I had at the time he was DC based and
00:42:04
Speaker
All of my life was East Coast. I was like, okay, well, they're saying I have unlimited vacation and I have time. I didn't, you know, I didn't, there was so many things I didn't know. So I was already adjusting to a job, stuff, shift over stuff took weeks to get there. I had to live on an air bed.
00:42:22
Speaker
and in a chair in my empty apartment. I didn't really know a whole lot of people there. I do have a cousin and his wife and they're military. And so they settled in independence to be next to that VA. And so they had their setup. They were set and they were happy. And they're on the retirement end of things. Military retirement at that, kind of like your family where they just sat and chill. Right. Not a care in the world.
00:42:48
Speaker
care in the world and of course like my cousin came her all her family's from like Topeka and they've all moved to the Kansas City Metro there was still just it was just different like they were definitely like there and I did Thanksgiving there one year but
00:43:03
Speaker
The rest of it, even though the urbanism in Kansas City was spectacular, like just all you got to see once again, it was another case where there's trees and urbanism. Like there's the grids, the numbered streets, the, this was, um, street car opened a year. Like I was there like literally like a month after street car was when I was like, Oh, nice. Yeah. So I have all these wonderful stories about being on the first car twice. Um,
00:43:32
Speaker
officially and unofficially because the mayor's mayor Sly James did not, had never seen me before. And I think he just realized, okay, nobody here is going to be black on here. Let me just pick her.
00:43:45
Speaker
Right, let me see what she's talking about. Everybody is like, how in the world did he do this? Was he not thinking like, because to be honest, our organization should have been on the first car anyway. I had actually, part of the reason I was able at the VIP reception the night before is because we had done work on the marketing for the bike and ped. And then I got on the street. Then we're at the opening ceremony.
00:44:13
Speaker
And I can't remember if I had, you know, I had ridden my own bike downtown that morning and that the hill adjustment. So it was just a lot of, and then everybody's at work like, how did this happen? And then everybody's like, how did this happen? We'll get back to the office. They're like, wow, how does that happen? I'm like, well, how do we not?
00:44:30
Speaker
one of them like a committee already like there was just so much people were plugging me in already it seemed like an optimal situation and i'm wondering like if you've had that kind of situation where you've moved somewhere and because you're so interested in urbanism people are trying to like get you to do like all the urbanism but you're like i'm just trying to live you know it's fascinating i'm just saying i'm just
00:44:54
Speaker
You know what, I actually feel like I had a really graceful entrance to urbanism to the point that I'm at now. So like moving to Atlanta after Mexico, I also had a family member that I was able to stay with for a couple weeks till I found a place.
00:45:09
Speaker
and then found when Craigslist roommates were a thing. I feel like that's still kind of a thing but yeah it was definitely a thing in like 2015-2016. So I found a roommate who lived in East Point which is kind of in the realm of the airport city like you said but East Point is a it's a
00:45:29
Speaker
cute little, you know, it has its own little soft urbanism going on. The friend she wrote, like one of her coworkers, I guess like her grandparent or something had this little cute two bedroom, one bath house with like a little kitchen and living room. It was nice. Like it was, it was better than like a two bedroom apartment, you know? And it had a little backyard. You can walk to a, to like a grocery store that was kind of like piggly wiggly, but it was like an off, not quite the same brand, but like the same style.
00:45:57
Speaker
Um, you can walk to the Marta, like the East Point Marta and like 15 to 20 minutes. And there was like a bus that took you there if you could catch it on time. So it was like the perfect, like soft urbanism that was like, okay, like I'm renting here, but then the water bills came and the electricity bills. We were paying a thousand dollars a month just in utilities because
00:46:21
Speaker
apparently the city of East Point gets their water from like city of Atlanta. And so there's these like agreements of blah, blah, blah, blah. It's a lot. I had to get out in three months. I was out of there and I was looking for a job as well because after AmeriCorps, I was still trying to like, okay, like I had this great urbanist or at that point for me, it was community and economic development. Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:48
Speaker
And so those, and I was like, okay, I know I can find a job in that, but there's not like a, there's not, I didn't see anyone who was like doing this career path. So I was like making up a career path of interest based on community and economic development. And I was like, well, I guess I got this degree, might as well put it in some use, you know.
00:47:07
Speaker
And it just worked out that my major was communication. So like I just so happened to start school when social media was starting to be kind of thing and WordPress and all these things that like if you learn them early were like, you know, right. And yet got you jobs. So I was lucky enough to be able to like combine that communication skill with
00:47:31
Speaker
this budding communication, I mean, with community and economic development, you know, understanding, because my mind was sociology. So I did have a base of knowledge of understanding of social issues and their deep complexities, but also like why and be able to talk about that. And it had to be a strain of my work throughout, you know, going through AmeriCorps, through, you know, moving to New York after Atlanta.
00:47:57
Speaker
So during while I was in Atlanta, I did another AmeriCorps program, we just called VISTA just volunteer service to America. Yep. I'm an ex-Vista, even though I love my VISTA program. Because of that reason, you're talking about knowing all the things. See, I knew all the things like,
00:48:15
Speaker
it's so cool that we're like, because I'm, we're the listeners, I'm learning things about Derek as we're talking because you know, you were chopping it up watching like hanging out at a birthday party. But literally, most of y'all, if you've been following me for years, know that my degrees actually my two degrees are communication.
00:48:34
Speaker
undergrad, master's is actually APA with a community and economic development concentration, which of course, when we're talking about this era of time in the 2008 to 2015, even through 2016 era, this was, yeah, if you knew how to do the things early, and we talk about doing the things early, because we had terabyte internet on NC State's campus,
00:48:58
Speaker
They had us an English 101 building websites in Dreamweaver. So I know Dreamweaver, as well as Dreamweaver, Expression Engine, WordPress, Joomla, Drupal. I have done all of those things, but my heart and passion, of course, is outside. And of course, this was before. And even still, people keep trying to make you niche down. But I've always been interdisciplinary.
00:49:27
Speaker
I'm like, okay, well, maybe I can help folks out just telling them what to do. And so my VISTA service, this was VISTA service when you were supposed to be poor, like you work. But that was mine. They actually changed the rule while I was in it so that you can get a second job because they knew they were underpaying people. Because the thing was, I want to stay in VISTA.
00:49:51
Speaker
but I had started this platform and I had not, no, actually I hadn't got paid for it yet, but I had the faith that it could pay me. I had the faith that it could pay me. It wasn't actually paying me and now if I realized that I was just right, wrote it out, I'm like, it's not actually paying me, I'm showing up on my taxes.
00:50:09
Speaker
Right. I can't believe that I like could afford to live in Atlanta at that time on a Vista salary. Like I can't even like my mind is not, that's not possible now. You wouldn't even be able to do that. You know, there's, there's, and it's changed so rapidly. Yeah. Like I said, that was 20
00:50:27
Speaker
2016 when I started the VISTA program and I did it at a organization called, it was ServiceWorks. And so they had, it was basically teaching that 18 to 24 year old age range service project, like how to put on a service project in your community in order to gain
00:50:47
Speaker
relevant work experience in order to gain like the skills that you know you got to have five years of experience and like ABCD if you can put on you can show you can put on a service project project management that was another one of those kind of like job job skill sets that like employers are looking for that you can actually demonstrate if you
00:51:07
Speaker
are putting on service projects in your neighborhood. So our service works online program was this like online kind of gamified program that taught that, you know, that age group how to set up a program, a service program in their neighborhood.
00:51:21
Speaker
So that was my VISTA project. There were four of us there. All of us are Black. And it was interesting because going from NCCC where it was like out of 300 people, there were like 30 Black people. But I mean, also I am a staunch advocate of integration.
00:51:41
Speaker
and being a part of a larger community, because while I am very also a staunch pro-Black person, I know that being integrated into the world is critically important and not to push away influences that are different, right? And being in that space of NCCC, and I mean, growing up in an army family, like you were, I was always exposed to people who were not, who didn't look like me, but we were also exposed to people who didn't look like me.
00:52:11
Speaker
And, you know, we're able to form relationships and also the challenging place of being Black in a certain, you know, position, right? Yes. So moving to Atlanta, I think, was just a, like, explosion of all those
Atlanta's Urban Changes
00:52:26
Speaker
things. Because Georgia Southern, you know, like, a lot of my friends from Georgia Southern came from Atlanta, right? Like, they wanted to be away, so they came to Georgia Southern. Yeah. And so when I was ready to make that opposite move, you know, they were at least there to help support or
00:52:40
Speaker
you know, hang out or we would, you know, connect me to other people. So, like, I felt like that, and that was also the era right before, like, some of the more landmark stuff in Atlanta was getting torn down. So, like, I lived right by where, like, on where Ponce City Market is, on Glen Irish Drive. I literally lived on Glen Irish Drive in a house that was, like,
00:53:03
Speaker
It was a trap house, pretty much. But the guy who was the investor, developer, whatever, basically cut it up into two apartments, and then rented out the rooms. There was six rooms in this little house that was on the corner, where around these modernist, brick, glass, billion-dollar houses were just cropping up. They were in the infancy of being like they were setting up the plots to get ready to build it. Yeah.
00:53:31
Speaker
Because we could walk to Central Park, which is right on, is that North Avenue, I think? Yeah, it's like right off of North Avenue. That's like where Atlanta starts to get like, that's the walkable, like urban area. And like I said, I was really lucky to be able to afford to live there if it wasn't for that trap house, that like, I wouldn't have been able to afford to live there on a VISTA salary. No, and what's so funny, I have a VISTA story when I came down to training. And so
00:53:59
Speaker
We were in, I think it was the Georgian Terrace, which that building has had a lot of issues, stories about, but that was our training spot. And of course, if you're coming in from out of town, and it was pretty decent. And so me being the urbanist of the route, we had gone down to the Krispy Kreme.
00:54:20
Speaker
Oh, my favorite. I used to go to that one all the time. Yeah. Yeah. And we had gone down to the Krispy Kreme and then somebody's phone was broke and they're like, yeah, we need to go to the mall. But I'm like, well, it looks like we can just keep walking out the sidewalk. But I'm assuming this mall was like outside the limits. So they all vetoed me actually walking those three miles. But I'm like, it's three
00:54:49
Speaker
You know, but also, but I think that's like the Beltline was just starting to become like more alive so that east coast that I mean the east side trail had just opened up to when I moved there.
00:55:04
Speaker
I saw it go from being more on the emptier side to being packed where you can't even walk on it anymore. And where they built, they tore down what they used to call, I think that one was the murder curler. That was right on that side where I saw it being demolished and to be where they built on top of it. So they literally densified this area while I was living in it.
00:55:28
Speaker
And another kind of staple over there was The Masquerade, which is like, I think it was over since like the 80s, but like every big acts, I think Bjork performed there, like huge, huge names performed at this little rickety venue that was like right there. I love that place. I saw my first, I think Solange actually was the first artist I thought in. And yeah, it just had like its own little history that I could be like, oh, I see myself there. Cause I lived there at that time.
00:55:56
Speaker
And they demolished that to build an apartment building while I was there as well. I went to the little like last festival they had before they tore it down. So it was just crazy just to be able to see like this. Like I said, my family moved there in like 20
00:56:14
Speaker
maybe no, 2005 or so. So being in Columbus at least, it's like an hour and a half away from Atlanta. So we had like a recreational relationship with Atlanta. Like it was a place we went for fun, for the city life, but then go back to Columbus for the suburb vibe that my parents, so enjoy.
00:56:34
Speaker
Yes. So yeah, so my experience with that urbanism of like, whoa, like things are changing in ways that aren't very comfortable for me. I'm like living in the middle of trying to get my life together, right? Like I just graduated that year before. So like still trying to find a good job, knowing that community and economic development is kind of my jam. Knowing that I want to be working in community development, like all these things are starting to come
00:57:00
Speaker
come forward as Atlanta was urbanizing, more densifying rather, and within like a zone. So like where the, where the beltline was being built, everything within that was like the new core or is becoming the new core, which is very apparent now when you go there. And I haven't been down, I haven't been in Atlanta since 18.
00:57:21
Speaker
And I was more on the West End. I was staying with folks on more on the West End, but I could kind of see things were going, but I've kept up. I've seen pictures and even going to Raleigh again, like just that.
00:57:35
Speaker
And of course people have been tapping me to talk about Southern gentrification because of course it wasn't even a word. It wasn't a word. As we said at the top of the interview, it wasn't a word we were thinking about, but now this is where the concern is rising. This is like the moment of
00:57:53
Speaker
This is why i'm really starting a thing called defined gentrification because i'm like okay so where are we supposed to go like. yeah. yeah and, of course, you are in the circle you're definitely in the circle, you know we we tend to keep a tight circle of friendships that are involved in these things and trying to work in these spaces but.
00:58:13
Speaker
Yeah so like that house that I lived in doesn't exist anymore. It's like a 15-story apartment building and like I couldn't even afford to live where I was even trying to live at that point. So like I guess that was my first real experience with like oh wow I guess I got pushed out almost but I was like even trying to stay but could I even have afforded to stay like right like
00:58:37
Speaker
And then that's when I just like after that this the year was over I kind of had my fill of Atlanta at the time but didn't have a car like I was literally Marta hard Marta super hard on it like
00:58:47
Speaker
Yeah. But Ubers also were super cheap in Atlanta. I can get an Uber from like that, you know, like pot city market to like Buckhead, like, you know, Linux mall. I can get an Uber for like six bucks, seven bucks on a regular day. That was back in, you know, 2016, the good old days. But you know, now
00:59:12
Speaker
So moving to New York, moved to New York right after that, just kind of, it wasn't, it felt like a whim at the time, but I needed to move to New York for like several reasons. And like turning 23, 24, like hitting that quarter life crisis. I was like, all right, if I'm doing now, you know, like when am I gonna do it?
00:59:30
Speaker
And I like I said, I had already had a career focus like starting so I knew that all right community and economic development I don't like that's a thing and oh and also I forgot to mention I was doing There were the I think Georgia Tech might have done this it was like this like urbanist training camps that they were trying to like do pop-ups around the city to kind of like inform about like urbanist topics and
00:59:54
Speaker
So I was trying to make it to as many of those as I could. So that was like a little taste of urbanism of that like formal training of like, okay, this is like an actual field that I can see myself in and be participated because I'm doing it, I'm living it.
01:00:10
Speaker
So then moving to New York, I moved to Brooklyn. That was my first thought. Me and my friend, we actually, he would live in New Orleans and we both got a Greyhound. Like we got, we both intended to use the Greyhound and just so happened to buy the same ticket. So like when his started in New Orleans and it met when I was in Atlanta, so we were like sitting next to each other on this like epic journey.
01:00:33
Speaker
New York from the South on the Greyhound. Yes. And also I had too much luggage, so I knew flying was not going to be cheap. So that was like, I got that ticket on like a Black Friday sale for like $13. Wow. So I was like, this is like fate. You know, I'm one of those, I believe. Yeah, no, everything was lining up, especially in this like era,
Community Development in New York and Baltimore
01:00:55
Speaker
right? Things are getting expensive, so. Exactly. So that Black Friday Greyhound special, like, you know, thank you, you know, in the past.
01:01:03
Speaker
So I was able to kind of like move toward, you know, where I feel like I've gotten to that point of urbanism where people are, you know, now they're asking me about urbanism stuff. But before I think moving to New York was really that like, okay, like I was, I got to work, I had the privilege to work, you know, I know working, you know, people see that like, you know, you know, I don't want to work, that's not my, but I was able to work at the nation's first community development corporation called the Bedford Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation.
01:01:32
Speaker
Yeah, also the first black led black own black black or the everything. All of the president to see all the most of the board members like it was like this was, you know, kind of the like I told my mom, this was the ideal job of being able to move from.
01:01:52
Speaker
like doing AmeriCorps work to actually being a community development kind of where it started. And what made it special is just that it was the community basically saying to like the federal government, you know, like there's their states, their US Senator, like we need a concentrated
01:02:08
Speaker
funding and effort and support and bricks and mortar to rebuild Bed-Stuy in like the 60s you know this is Shirley Chisholm like Shirley Chisholm was part of this like every Black leader of that 60s 50s time was like part of building this institution that's still there and so I got to be able to work in their communications and development department as their 50th anniversary was coming around so that was just like
01:02:34
Speaker
That was just like, this is it. Like, you know, I really felt so connected to how much that means to Black people to be able to like really be community development on a like, on a federal level. And, you know, you know, 60s Bed-Stuy or that history of Brooklyn in that time period was like,
01:02:56
Speaker
how I think of Baltimore now, honestly. Which is a good segue because of course you've crossed the country. We've done all these things. And of course, as we're coming to the end of our little talk about your little gentrification diary, like coming from Brooklyn and being at like the CDC of CDCs. And one thing I really want to kind of impress on folks is like, that's where the urbanism happens in the black community is the CDCs and the churches and the churches are generally
01:03:26
Speaker
Pushing the CDC's and then yes, we have our Urban Leagues and Define Nine and some of the other social groups that are putting themselves together. Urbanism for us is happens to us or if we're in control of urbanism.
01:03:42
Speaker
that we're in these environments. We don't come at it like if we're like a fan of like a train or if we're like, oh, this is so fascinating, but this is our lives. And so I would love for you to talk about just that movement to Baltimore. And then of course, maybe even end on just how you're seeing Baltimore being the central part of like what's next. And then when we were at the party, we were talking about being in West Baltimore and of course the history of that.
01:04:12
Speaker
the opportunity and all of that so just kind of tie us together talking about one getting the Baltimore and then your Baltimore years so far because you've been there for four years so it's it's sticking and of course these are the pandemic years but it's still sticking yeah um so yeah so i um
01:04:31
Speaker
In 2019 so I actually went to this like minority and cannabis business seminar and went to mostly mainly hear the speakers and there was this one guy who was there, which I can remember his name but leaders of a beautiful struggle. Okay. It's a West Baltimore. Yeah. The organization.
01:04:52
Speaker
one of their leaders, he was speaking at this and the way he was like, he was just a very eloquent speaker. He was so well spoken and just very like hitting all the points and like how like people and minority people need to get in on cannabis industry right now.
01:05:09
Speaker
And so I went up to talk to him afterwards and was just mixing it up. And he was like, and I was telling him, I was thinking about Baltimore. I've been thinking about it a lot lately. It just feels like a place that I just need to explore. And this is 2019, mind you. And he was like, you know what? You need to explore Upton. Just think about Upton as a place. And so I was like, I will. So at this time, like I said, I was still working at restoration.
01:05:38
Speaker
I was still, and at that point I had transitioned from like full time to a contract of working for the 2020 census. So my job was to do all that, was to work on the communication and the outreach for our neighbors in Bed-Stuy to get them to do the census. So when the pandemic happened, my job became even more important because that was how we were getting the word out for people to do the census and how important it is for us to do the census.
01:06:04
Speaker
So, um, luckily as the things were, you know, June, the summertime was really when all the counting was ramping up. So, um, by the time I lease ended in Brooklyn in June, I was able to keep that job online and transition to Baltimore, um, after taking a visit after, you know, this suggestion to go visit Upton. And I took the Amtrak and, and
01:06:27
Speaker
Luckily those cheap pandemic tickets like bring them back. But yeah, so I got I went there back on the same day and just like walked around like I probably walked like 40,000 miles that day. I mean steps that day. Look, it feels like it, but it's easy to do.
01:06:43
Speaker
Right. And that's what already was the appeal to it. Right. And I met this guy actually off of a dating app and he actually on a friendship basis, like I was on social networks. I like, I, you know, he could go either way. We could be BFS or, you know, but like, so he happened to be a cool tour guide and a friend. He was a local and literally just like we walked around all these places. He went to Upton. We walked on Pennsylvania Avenue, right to where the apartment that I ended up
01:07:12
Speaker
Moving to. And I was like, reminds me of Brooklyn, honestly. I was like, this was literally like Broadway in Brooklyn, like, right, where the J-line is, like, that was my, that was where I lived. I lived on Cooper Street, right, where Broadway and Cooper meet in Bushwick, right, right. And if you've been to that area,
01:07:36
Speaker
Well, if you've been there pre-COVID right till now, it's changed dramatically in just the time that I've been aware of it. So I know people who've experienced it longer. But moving to Pennsylvania Avenue, for me, it was like, oh, well, duh. It's literally downtown. It's in the middle of the city. Yeah.
01:07:55
Speaker
it has transit like you can walk to the light rail like the rent so the apartment that i found that i learned later was like subsidized affordable like not section 8 not any permanent but just affordable subsidized housing and it was 7.75 a month a free month the rent and the security deposit
01:08:19
Speaker
was $10. So I was like, okay, I'm moving in there. Like don't really care what else is going on. Like I need this cheap apartment.
01:08:28
Speaker
And I knew I had applied for unemployment because I knew that contract was ending. So I had it long enough to be able to have my pay stubs to move in. But I was fortunate enough that that time being in that apartment, I lived there for like a year and a half, helped me to save the money that I needed to be able to buy a house a couple of blocks away. And just being able to have access to affordable housing that was intentionally, like I said, not program-based affordable housing that was subsidized,
01:08:57
Speaker
Like, and then you know later learning the history of Pennsylvania Avenue, one of my friends who now he lives in Mexico City. He sent me Wes Moore's book, which I forgot which one it was.
01:09:09
Speaker
It was the one that was more like based around the Freddie Gray. Yeah, yeah. So he sent me that book like right as I moved maybe like the week I moved so I like read that like, you know, it took me like a day or two to finish that and so I just, I just was like, really just like,
01:09:29
Speaker
rooted very quickly, I feel like, to what I needed to be doing in Baltimore and what I was doing in New York and Brooklyn, but wanted to continue to do. So like I said, I lived there for like a year and a half. The house that I ended up finding, like I said, I use a down payment assistance program, because we're in a nonprofit. We don't get paid a lot. But I qualified, I qualified in that same level as like police officers, teachers, like I qualified in that because I work in a nonprofit.
01:09:59
Speaker
And was just fortunate that I could find something that I could afford in the area and the property taxes are like very manageable as well.
Affordable Housing and Homeownership
01:10:09
Speaker
They have programs to like keep it
01:10:11
Speaker
going up at a predictable percentage. Like it always goes up, but at least if you can predict the percentage it goes up, it makes it a little bit more manageable, you know? Yes. So like just the journey to like, like I said, that affordable housing to homeownership was like, who's doing, like, where was that happening, right? Like it was so like, you know, of course I had to research and pursue it, right? It didn't just fall in my lap. You know, you're like, it just, oh yeah, it just happened, right?
01:10:37
Speaker
It did take a lot, like I said, living in that apartment while it was affordable. You can imagine lots of, you know, police tape and shootings and lots of really difficult things that living in an urban environment brains, which, like I said, moving from Brooklyn wasn't foreign to me.
01:10:55
Speaker
but it was just what it was, right? I mean, when I gave that $7.75, I was like, man, it's cheap, but I need to move it to this house as well. And that's the one thing I want to emphasize, like, you know, I want folks to think about, especially our folks. And of course, this is the podcast where like now before the original podcast, I'm like,
01:11:18
Speaker
going to convince everybody, but this one's for us and other folks of color to understand just coming to these neighborhoods and our and when we're in our neighborhoods now the thing I have is being perceived as feminine as an extra level of okay I need to think about me walking around the streets and I wish I could have had that cheap affordability
01:11:41
Speaker
Now, yes, not to say that women aren't in the streets, but, you know, the cat calling sometimes. And if you don't have the right people, if you, but the one thing about Baltimore that, and this is, I've been, I'm getting ready to go back on my next, hopefully next on my next Baltimore round, like we're between going to Virginia. Cause my partner is a Virginian is like, yeah, Virginia's lit. And of course, you know, Virginia has its history. Yeah. And then coming back to Baltimore city where I'm like, you know, I have my frame core.
01:12:12
Speaker
And, you know, as an artist, as well as a communicator, I'm looking at that Pennsylvania Avenue, like arts district, you know, the subway is there. Like people don't realize like that subway is there. Maybe don't get no ideas. Like stay scared. Please stay scared for a hot minute. But if you are a black American or even just black at a diaspora.
01:12:34
Speaker
This is a wonderful opportunity and I'm glad you brought up LBS or Leaders of People Struggle. They've done a lot of good work with the Arts District and I remember when they were kind of getting started a little bit and figuring out what they wanted to do and figuring out where they needed to show up and I honestly watched them and then collectively like that collective and then
01:12:55
Speaker
you know live Baltimore giving you the resources. Now of course connecting people with some resources can be a little difficult especially. So I want to say that was Druid Height CDC which is also black led and black governed nonprofit that is doing amazing work. I am very glad to count them as a partner as I've
01:13:16
Speaker
I'm a worker for my neighborhood association. No, yes. But just being able, like four years in, I can say I don't see myself moving.
01:13:29
Speaker
Yeah, this is my home. I'm here. People know me like, yeah. Oh, and I think that's, I was looking at the, and that's the thing. Like, I'm like, y'all stay scared. Cause I'm in MLS right now and I'm looking at the housing and I'm looking at the shape of the housing and comparative in our budget. And I'm like, and I need this so I can write everything off. Cause Marilyn, let you know all. And I think it's just, that's what I want. Like that friendly feeling because I'm Southern.
01:13:56
Speaker
i'm southern hands down like yeah i'm adjusting to I eat more crabs now because people can't seem to fry the fish properly yeah i'm like how am i expecting them to know what popcorn shrimp is when I can't eat crabs in like you know what touch a crab in.
01:14:10
Speaker
Baltimore is the perfect blend between the North and the South. If you've lived in both, you know what you can get here that blends. This is actually the first city where I go to eat sushi and I know there's going to be real crab in the sushi. You can get California rolls with the imitation stuff, but you can also get fresh crab sushi rolls as well.
01:14:33
Speaker
And I think there's just so much here that I think that, like, that I see in that, like I said, that Atlanta that I literally saw, like, you know, as sand in the hourglass going through my hands, seeing Atlanta change that was a way that, like I said, I had, the way I interacted with Atlanta was like priming me to see a life there, right? But as it was growing beyond what I could afford as someone who was, who saw their future in sadly a profession that doesn't pay well on the front end.
01:15:03
Speaker
Yeah, don't get me wrong, my nonprofit brothers and sisters at restoration, they was making six figures living out in West Chester or Long Island. They were making money. So don't be fooled that there's no money in these professions because there is.
01:15:17
Speaker
But when you start out, you know, you gotta, you gotta be scrappy. Um, the thing is like being in the district and people tell us like, cause that's the other thing about being in this region. There's that not as it only is there that connectivity. And I think just the advantage now I do see Maryland heating up, but it's going to heat up differently. And this is the moment right now. And those, but then there's so Baltimore's history was let's make sure everybody has somewhere to live.
01:15:46
Speaker
Yeah. And because Baltimore's history was let's make sure everybody has somewhere to live. There was a lot of housing and there is a lot of people just own it and they're converting it. And then of course there's that when they get rid of that route 40 situation and they just rip that up and then they could just play. Well, obviously they do need to do some replacement housing. People deserve to get to come back there. Yes. But there's still room to play with it if we can get this IZ right.
01:16:15
Speaker
There is so much at stake right there, and I live about a mile and a half away. But when I lived on Pennsylvania Avenue, I worked, well, I was a volunteer with Neighborhood Design Center, and they're also a historic, you know, neighborhood-based, you know, organization that brings together planners and architects and other urban design. Yes, another great group I worked with before. Yeah, and I was fortunate to work with them while they were working with Bree Jones at Parity Homes.
01:16:43
Speaker
Yeah, I was working in Harlem park and I was walking there from from Pennsylvania Avenue to where we were working at and like.
01:16:52
Speaker
the things I could write about. It just all comes alive for you when you just really figure it like when you see this history and you learn about old central west Baltimore and just feeling like just walking on the streets that like you know in New York it's the same way right like it's that same like you know the people who have walked these streets like you can feel the energy
01:17:15
Speaker
But in Baltimore it's a different thing, right? Like it's the same people probably and other, you know, also very notable people have walked the streets of what is now dilapidated and dangerous and dark and broken and it doesn't have to be that way.
01:17:33
Speaker
No, no. And that's the thing, like, so gentrification, I don't think is our problem in Baltimore. Well, not in all the places, right? Like there are certain places that that it is real, but it's acute. And another interning thing that I did was working with the Baltimore Neighborhood Indicators Alliance. Yes. Who does data and, you know, research to like take the census data and, you know, breaks it down for Baltimore, makes it digestible for like everyday people.
01:17:59
Speaker
And one of the most interesting facts that I'm really trying to boost and want people to really hear is the research found that, you know, the neighborhoods that are more, you know, that are overwhelmingly like 80% Black or like majority Black neighborhoods are losing residents. While the neighborhoods in the city that are gaining residents like the Cantons and the waterfront neighborhoods and the Riverside, all that, the reason they're growing residents in Black residents.
01:18:25
Speaker
they are growing because they're gaining black residents. So like that's kind of the kind of antidote to getting black people to stay in cities because right now with the 2020 census, we also learned that the majority of the black population is suburban there, right? Like black concentrate thousand of cities, they're going out. But the black people who do want to live in cities want to live in integrated
01:18:49
Speaker
wealthy, clean, safe neighborhoods. Yes. So like the gentrification things kind of flipped on his head, right? Like the ones who can afford it are moving to, you know, quote unquote, better urban neighborhoods because they want to be in a vibrant, integrated place. So yeah, it's gonna the people who think that they can keep
01:19:10
Speaker
moving the goalposts further and further up, they're going to get laughed out. And that's why I love that Urban Institute study that just came out. We need all the resources. Because just think, get everybody with a voucher, get everybody housed, and then people are going to start wanting to move. Those buildings on that waterfront,
01:19:29
Speaker
let, you know, let people make that choice, but let them have it. Let it be a choice. And then of course everybody who still, cause I just think about the people who's stove exploded up there by alpha Reisterstown road, like that, like there's so many folks that are waiting on getting free from their gas stoves or they want to make the updates. So really,
01:19:53
Speaker
I want to challenge as we wrap up like for one thing this this gentrification diary it being the first one this has been excellent like yeah thank you for telling your story and coming and telling all the things and of course talking about why each you're that's what i'm hoping to do with of course this this version uh and of course i'll save some of my life and true end of like
01:20:15
Speaker
end of story stuff for the next segment. But one of the things you kind of were alluding to it, like kind of leave folks with
Combating Gentrification through Community Engagement
01:20:24
Speaker
advice. Like if they're facing like the acute gentrification where they're getting ready to get evicted or they're like dealing with like a price mismatch or somebody's trying to call the cops on their church or like something like that.
01:20:38
Speaker
What's your piece of advice you would give people who are dealing with gentrification acutely to properly maybe even get closer to eradicating because of course here at this podcast we believe everybody is wealthy we believe everybody is worthy everybody deserves a home that they love and if they want to upgrade they upgrade so yeah that's the premise that's like the the thought process of defining eradicating gentrification so
01:21:03
Speaker
for those folks who feel like gentrification is like a foot stepping on them and they feel like they can't get out and under it, what do you say to those folks? What do you give them some advice? And of course, share some resources. You already shared some resources, but also share a few more if you can.
01:21:17
Speaker
So the first my best piece of advice is to go to every neighborhood meeting that you can go to every city planning meeting that you're able to attend or as it relates to your neighborhood because that's where the changes happen and it doesn't take 10 people to do it if you can get two of your neighbors with you to go you know challenge the permit for like the new liquor store that's going in town or
01:21:42
Speaker
or you know on your block or whatever all that stuff can be has to be addressed at that city planning level when the meetings are happening. So like if you have to make time to do it you know get time off of work if you have to if it's something that pertains to your neighborhood where you live like you have to make that time.
01:22:01
Speaker
And I go to a lot of meetings, and I'm usually the youngest person in there by a couple decades, most of the time. And me and my neighbor, we go together at the same age, and we are trying to have seats at these tables. Because one, a lot of people are like, hey, do you want to take this seat? They're kind of tired now. They're like, we were making decisions. We want someone else to come and do it. And I was fortunate enough to meet our state senator, Antonio Hayes. He's my senator.
01:22:31
Speaker
big senator and the first thing that I met him at when I was volunteering with parody homes and sitting at a table while we were doing a community outreach session and he was there and he was like get involved with the neighborhood association they need some young blood there yeah well that's great advice you know let me let me put him in that
01:22:52
Speaker
if you are in a neighborhood association you won't let go let go to the young folks it's time they will carry that we want to carry you but we got you got to let us carry you so that that's good advice anything else
01:23:06
Speaker
No, but yeah, that read, be educated, join groups. I've been very fortunate to share a partnership with so many great groups that I don't even like, sometimes I'm like, can I even talk about this stuff?
Closing Thoughts and Recommendations
01:23:21
Speaker
I know someone who knows like 10 times more than I do, but I'm humbled enough to carry on their words and their knowledge with me and being able to share them and bring them alive in my conversations.
01:23:33
Speaker
Um, so, you know, the more, the more you know, the more you can share and just be a resource. All right, y'all. So this conversation has been wonderful. Derek, you've been an awesome guest. And so thank you for having me. Oh, you're welcome. And so everybody else hold up. I got one more ad break and then I'll come back and wrap up the show. Once again, this is a defined gentrification podcast with Kristen Jeffers.
01:24:00
Speaker
So I have one more book for you in this episode that I would love for you to go to my bookshop.org slash shop shop, Kristin E. Jeffords store and buy. Or you can also get the audiobook as well. So if you're enjoying hearing my voice, a lot of, you may not know, but bookshop.org is, sells audiobooks for a lot of books and this one is included in that.
01:24:21
Speaker
This book is called The Black Butterfly by Laurence B. Brown. Well, specifically The Black Butterfly, The Harmful Politics of Race and Space in America. So there are multiple books called The Black Butterfly, but I want to make sure you have the one that's focusing on Baltimore and the harmful politics of race and space in America, which are reflected in Baltimore. So just a little lesson here. We didn't exactly get very deep into this, but we alluded to this in our interview together.
01:24:48
Speaker
But the Black Butterfly is basically the Black neighborhoods of Baltimore, the legacy, historic Black neighborhoods of Baltimore.
01:24:55
Speaker
that make a butterfly shape when you look at them on the map. And so that shape is reflected on the cover. I've been following Lawrence P. Brown's Facebook group and this person, this man is very pointed in his criticisms of the city and I was really excited to see that finally he had a book deal and I'm also very excited to see who actually published it.
01:25:22
Speaker
I'll let you find that out. If you go over to bookshop.org slash shop slash Christine Jeffress is right there in the bookstore now under the Black Urbanist Booklist. And yeah, definitely read it and let me know what you think. I'm looking forward to getting deeper into it. Of course, a lot of this
01:25:38
Speaker
The book is a lot of the things he shared in the Facebook page, but then it's even in hand. So yes, this and many other books are there. And yeah, you can support me in the podcast by going to bookshop.org slash shop slash Kristin Jones. And now let's finish the show.
01:25:53
Speaker
So this conversation today really motivated me so much, and I'm so glad that Derek Moore was our first guest. Since we had our conversation, I've really been prioritizing visiting Baltimore more. Yes, we're looking to move up there in a little bit, but really, really seeking out places and spaces and neighborhoods that I've had before.
01:26:18
Speaker
I've been really, really pleased. Connecting with Black Arts District, connecting with the city lid, continuing to build my connections with my media colleagues, and hopefully soon becoming a full-time Baltimore resident.
01:26:33
Speaker
But anyway, thank you all for being here for this longer episode. Our guest episodes will be longer like this. And yeah, feel free to listen as much as you can, take pauses, whatever you need to do. But we love to have you and we hope you'll continue to join us for these guest episodes as well as my solo shows.
01:26:54
Speaker
And yes, the defying gentrification podcast is a production of Kristen Jeffers Media. I'm your host, producer, guest booker, et cetera. You can find this podcast everywhere that podcasts are. You can subscribe to the newsletter. The newsletter lives on sub-stack. Just go on sub-stack and search for defying gentrification crafting revelation. And that way you'll never miss one of my Monday live streams. Monday's at noon Eastern. So whatever that is in your time zone,
01:27:24
Speaker
I will be live on every one of my social medias. That's LinkedIn, that's Instagram, that's YouTube. And yeah, I'll be live and talking back about the episode and anything else that's on that line. Anyway, I hope that you will do your best this week or however, whenever time period you listen to this to defy and eradicate gentrification. I and I will see you next time.