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All About Agatha: Interview with Kemper Donovan
387 Plays1 year ago
In a special interview episode, Brook and Sarah are joined by Kemper Donovan, host of All About Agatha, to discuss what he's learned in over five years of deep diving into Agatha Christie's work.
Discussed
A Mysterious Affair at Styles (1922) Agatha Christie
The Murder of Roger Ackroyd (1926) Agatha Christie
The Secret of Chimneys (1925) Agatha Christie
The Seven Dials Mystery (1929) Agatha Christie
The Science of Murder: The Forensics of Agatha Christie (2022) Carla Valentine
A is for Arsenic: The Poisons of Agatha Christie (2015) Kathryn Harkup
The Busy Body (2024) Kemper Donovan
More about Kemper Donovan and All About Agatha
All About Agatha on Apple Podcasts
Twitter (@allaboutthedame)
Instagram (@allaboutagatha)
For more information
Instagram (@cluedinmystery)
Contact us: hello@cluedinmystery.com
Music: Signs To Nowhere by Shane Ivers – www.silvermansound.com
Website
Transcript
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Transcript
Introduction to Kemper Donovan and Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Welcome to Clued in Mystery. I'm Sarah. And I'm Brooke, and we both love mystery. Hi Brooke. Hi Sarah, how are you today? I'm doing really well, how about you? I'm great, and I'm so excited about a very special guest we have today. Would you like to introduce him?
00:00:30
Speaker
Yes, we have Kemper Donovan. Kemper is a writer and the host of All About Agatha, a podcast dedicated to all things Agatha Christie. For five years, he co-hosted this podcast with his dear friend, Catherine Brobeck, who tragically passed away at the end of 2021. His first mystery novel, The Busy Body, will be published in January 2024 by Kensington Books. He lives in Southern California with his husband and two daughters. Welcome Kemper.
Origins of All About Agatha Podcast
00:00:59
Speaker
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I love being on the other side of the table, so to speak. Oh, yes, it's just a thrill to have you, Kemper. We're both fans of your show. But unlike you, Sarah and I haven't read all of Agatha Christie's work yet. We're working our way through the canon. So tell us what inspired you and Katherine Brobeck to take on the challenge of reading and rating every story?
00:01:28
Speaker
Yes, why were we such fools? Is that really what you're asking? Why would we have taken this upon ourselves? Well, I knew Catherine for many years before we started doing the podcast. She was actually a friend from college of my husband, so they had known each other for almost over a decade or perhaps over a decade by the time that I met Catherine.
00:01:51
Speaker
She started as a sort of friend in law in that way. And that's always a funny sort of a relationship. And I think you have to find your commonalities with with those people when you're kind of like thrown together with them. And we discovered to our mutual delight that we both had this passion for mysteries, really for literature.
Passion for Literature and Agatha Christie Focus
00:02:10
Speaker
Overall, Catherine used to always say the moment that she realized we were going to be good friends is when we had an impassioned conversation about Anna Karenina.
00:02:18
Speaker
and how Anna Karenina is really about Levin and not Anna at all, and how obsessed we were with Levin and his story in that book. And that was one of her very favorite books. So we would just talk about books all the time. She was my reading friend. What are you reading? And we would often gravitate toward the same things. And we also both had an overwhelming love, especially for the David Suchet.
00:02:45
Speaker
Agatha Christie's Poirot series and we would just talk about it constantly and just in way more of a granular and minute detail than I could with literally any other person in my life. And so one day we were just having dinner with Catherine, my husband and I.
00:03:03
Speaker
And for some reason the subject of podcasting and podcasts came up and this was in 2016, which was right around when podcasts really started to explode. There are even more podcasts now, but that was, I think when we were on the cusp of the podcast explosion and we were talking about what a fantastic voice she has because she does, she has this really distinctive voice. And I said, Catherine, you need to do a podcast because I would love to listen to you and you're so smart and you always have,
00:03:31
Speaker
She was a very opinionated person too. She always had something to say about everything and an interesting thing to say, which is not something that you can say about a lot of people. I could never predict what her opinion was going to be on anything, literature, politics, or anything in between.
00:03:47
Speaker
And somehow that conversation organically turned into, well, maybe we could do a podcast together because I think she said, I don't want to have to talk into a void and monologue. And I'm sure you can both appreciate this. Doing a podcast with a friend is, you know, I think a little bit.
00:04:05
Speaker
less of a scary endeavor. So we sort of came up with this idea, well, if we're going to do a podcast together, I think it would have to be about literature and about mysteries. And we love Agatha Christie so much. Let's do something Agatha Christie based. And then I honestly can't really tell you how or why we came up with our rankings plan. But I think we just wanted some sort of an underpinning for it because it did feel like such a void. What are we going to talk about? How are we going to do this?
00:04:35
Speaker
week after week, it turned into more of a once every two weeks sort of a thing, but how are we going to have something to say? So I think that sort of gave us the confidence to go into the project having this very kind of strong structural underpinning for what we would be discussing.
00:04:54
Speaker
That's great. I think that that's so true. Um, for all of us bookish people, we would drive our, uh, spouses crazy. They had to try to talk about this stuff with us. So I know Sarah and I have that too. We're like, Oh, thank goodness. We have somebody who wants to geek out as much on this topic as I do. Yes. Yes. So Kimper, can you tell us a little bit about the rating system that, uh, that you guys designed?
Review and Rating System for Christie’s Books
00:05:20
Speaker
Yeah, so we decided that we were going to go through each of Agatha Christie's 66 full length mystery novels in publication order. So we'd start with the mysterious affair at Stiles in 1920 and just go right on through into the 70s.
00:05:38
Speaker
And we would break down the book in terms of a plot summary that actually evolved gradually over the first year of the podcast. At first, we tried to summarize the plot of each book in like under a minute or something like that, which was just insane. I think we even had a little ticking clock
00:06:00
Speaker
audio clip that we used and it just didn't work because we realize that part of the joy of Christie is the story it is the plot and how twisty-turny those plots are and where the puzzle takes you so we started to take our time with the summarization of the story.
00:06:19
Speaker
And we also had a very specific way that we broke down each plot where we would talk about the victim of the murder mystery, the suspects, and then the world as it appears to be before we get to our solution, the way that we get to our solution, which we ended up calling a bridge of clues that brings us into the world as it actually is. And that's when we're on the other side of who did it, and we get the sense of
00:06:44
Speaker
what was actually going on the entire time and we have our resolution. So that was the first half of every episode. But again, I think it took about a year for us to get to that point. But from the very beginning, then the second half of each episode was the same, which involved applying some preset criteria to each book. And we had a couple of different categories. We had
00:07:07
Speaker
Plot mechanics, plot credibility, series long characters, book specific characters, and then a bit of a catch all category that we called setting and tone, which basically both.
00:07:21
Speaker
involved a discussion of how well evoked the setting was and whether the book had a sort of tone or a writing style that worked for us. But it was also a way for us to convey how much we enjoyed the book overall, whether or not it was readable. Almost all Christie is extremely readable. That's one of her superpowers. But there are books that are stronger than others. So those were the main categories. And then our final category
00:07:46
Speaker
was for depictions stuck in their time. And that was our way of accounting for the phenomenon of reading Christie.
00:07:55
Speaker
in the modern day and for us in the 21st century, and sometimes feeling that there were elements of the stories that were out of whack with a modern sensibility in terms of how they were depicted. So this is where we have instances of racism, antisemitism, sexism, homophobia, ableism, et cetera, et cetera. And you know, I always,
00:08:20
Speaker
approached, and I think Catherine as well, we always approached that category with a great deal of humility because it's not like we're sitting here saying, oh, well, she did this wrong. She depicted it the wrong way. And now we know how to do this so that no one gets upset. And oh, well, I guess she just didn't know the answer. Of course not. These are incredibly complicated subjects that will bedevil humanity for as long as we shall exist.
00:08:43
Speaker
And we just felt like we needed to acknowledge that reader experience when you're reading Christie, because I think it's one that all Christie fans universally recognize. If you love Christie, you know, you love the puzzles, you might love a lot of the other aspects of the writing, but there are often moments where you're like, oh, wow, that was surprising, not in a good way.
00:09:07
Speaker
I can now tell that that was written in 1932 and not in 2022. And I'm pretty sure that if Agatha Christie were living now, she would have chosen to put that a little differently or maybe take that out or something. And this is a very hot topic of the day. I am very grateful that we could read the original texts. And I always would like to be able to read Christie's original texts because that's very important to me as a reader and a scholar of Christie.
00:09:33
Speaker
But I never want to ignore that issue or shirk any of the discomfort that may be experienced by certain readers and that I experienced or that other readers did. So that was something that we came back to again and again each time we covered a book.
00:09:51
Speaker
and basically each of those categories that i mentioned, plot mechanics, plot credibility, book specific characters, series long characters, and setting a tone, we would then assign a score to each of those categories anywhere from zero to ten, and we would assign a number of deductions for depictions stuck in their time depending on how badly we thought they
00:10:13
Speaker
damage the read if compared to if they hadn't been there at all. And in that way, we came up with an actual numerical score for each book. And then we were able to rank all 66 books so that we had this giant grid that included each category broken down, but also an overall score. And it was just a very nerdy exercise and I think a way of delighting in
00:10:43
Speaker
reading Christie and appreciating Christie that spoke to a lot of people. Um, even though we are obvious, we obviously never thought that we were providing any sort of an objective answer as to what the best Christie is that would, this was our opinion.
Challenges and Fun in Podcast Creation
00:10:57
Speaker
So we certainly back it up with a lot of sexual support of reading for a living. But did your project ever become a chore for you? It's almost like a graduate degree.
00:11:16
Speaker
It was I'd say 95 percent just utter joy. But yes, of course, like everything, it had its drawbacks. And I think that when Catherine and I first started the project, one thing that we had forgotten about is that Agatha Christie wrote a number of thrillers throughout her career, but especially in the 1920s. So if you are embarking on the project of reading Agatha Christie in chronological publication order,
00:11:46
Speaker
You know, you start with the mysterious affair at Stiles and you've got the murder on the links and the murder of Roger Ackroyd is an early jewel. But before the murder of Roger Ackroyd, there are a number of these thriller books that she wrote. The first one is The Secret Adversary, which is actually her second book that she published. And I actually became much more of a fan of Tommy and Tuppence over the course of the podcast than I was before.
00:12:13
Speaker
I was not a Tommy and Tuppence Stan before the podcast and I know there are many people who just cannot with them and I understand that but that was okay. It was more some books like The Secret of Chimneys, The Seven Dials Mystery,
00:12:30
Speaker
A couple of those 20s thrillers, they I think made a lot of sense when Agatha Christie published them because there were a lot of books around that time within that specific genre. So she was writing for an audience. She was also I think figuring out what her style was and what she did well and what she wanted to write because this was early on in her career.
00:12:54
Speaker
And you can tell by the 30s, she locked in to what she did and what she did so brilliantly. And there was a little bit of muddling, I think, in the 20s. So when we had first started and we were in our first year, we were saying to ourselves, oh my God, we have like 50 books to go and we're just reading these thrillers and we didn't even completely remember quite honestly that she wrote all these thrillers. What have we gotten ourselves into? And Catherine and I would always joke that
00:13:20
Speaker
One of the reasons we ranked The Secret of Chimneys as low as we did is that we were just really grumpy while we read it. Because I think your personal mood can really color how you approach a book. And I finally revisited The Secret of Chimneys, actually. This was after Catherine passed away because it really had been something that we had been threatening to do for a long time.
00:13:43
Speaker
And I did. I think I had a greater appreciation for it just because I've become such a psychotic fan of all things, Christy, that like reading any literally anything she wrote brings me great joy, including the Secret of Chimneys at this point. So, you know, I titled the episode Justice for Secret of Chimneys, and I think I bumped it up a couple of spots in the rankings, but not many spots. It's not one of her best. So.
00:14:09
Speaker
That was, I think, a little bit of a dark period in the podcast. And then the other thing I'll just say is, you know, the logistics of recording and editing and publishing a podcast can be tricky. And we definitely had a lot of trial and error in that department. You both sound fantastic. I can see that you have great microphones and good equipment and you know what you're doing.
00:14:37
Speaker
We had no idea what we are doing, and we sound so, so bad in the beginning of our podcast. We were using these awful little microphones that we clipped onto the tops of our laptops. It was just the blind leading the blind. We sound, I think one of our earliest reviews on Apple Podcasts said, you know, I really love your podcast that apparently you record from like the middle of an airplane hangar or maybe
00:15:03
Speaker
be in a bathroom because that's what it sounded like. It's so echoey. Catherine had a crickets issue where she would have crickets outside of her window so you can hear crickets chirping half the time in those earlier episodes before we got microphones that would properly mute those that background sound. So
00:15:20
Speaker
That was difficult. And then I don't know if I've ever actually talked about this on my podcast, but we had a disaster when we covered cards on the table, which is actually one of my favorite Christie's. It's a fantastic Christie. And Catherine and I recorded the episode. I think it was well over an hour. And my recording for some reason just crashed and it was lost.
00:15:46
Speaker
So I had to rerecord my part of the recording and like respond to Catherine who had already been recorded. It was just, it was the weirdest experience. It took me so long. I probably spent 10 hours
00:16:02
Speaker
editing first, you know, recreating and then editing that that episode. So to this day, when I see cards on the table, I love it. But I also shudder a little bit. I'm like, oh, cards on the table. That was such a bad scene. But yeah, I mean, as I said, 95 percent joy because I've always been a reader. And I think part of
00:16:24
Speaker
What I really loved about the podcast project is that it was something I was able to share with Catherine and then with this audience that we built of Christie scholars. And it was it was it was just a really great experience overall, despite those little dark periods. Kemper, what surprised you about Christie's work once you did the deep dive into her stories?
Discovering Christie’s Writing Style
00:16:47
Speaker
Well, we went into this project on the hypothesis that Christie is a much better writer than many people give her credit for. But I don't think I quite expected to find as much evidence to support this hypothesis as we did. You know, there's so much great character work in Christie, but I think perhaps even more importantly, I gained an appreciation for
00:17:11
Speaker
her unique craft, the way that she writes, I think, is unlike any other author. And I think there are many mystery fans who would say, well, I love Agatha Christie's mysteries because she's such a clever plotter or puzzle maker. But I really prefer the writing style of Dorothy Sayers or P.D. James or Ruth Rendell. Ton of French. These are all authors who I absolutely adore. But I think that
00:17:37
Speaker
The reason readers tend to prefer those authors over Christie is that they're more comfortable with the way they write because they write more conventionally. They write beautifully. They write elegantly. But I think they write in a tradition that we've seen time and time again in lots of different genres. You know, it's kind of like dates back even to the grand Victorian novel.
00:18:00
Speaker
And I'm not saying that Agatha Christie wasn't influenced by Victoria novels because she really was. I mean, she loved her Dickens. She loved her Thackeray. And you can see those influences, but you see them in weird ways. And I think that Agatha Christie is a much weirder writer than I ever realized before reading her as closely as I have and reading practically every word as closely as I have now over these six plus years. And
00:18:25
Speaker
That I think is why she's misunderstood and misapprehended sometimes as a writer, despite her popularity. It's such a weird situation, too, because few writers are as popular or as successful as Agatha Christie, but.
00:18:41
Speaker
I think a lot of people first come to her when they're children and you read books a certain way when you're a child and sometimes you don't understand exactly why you love it as much as you do and why it's working and you don't have the same appreciation that you might have when you come back to it and you're a more mature reader. I certainly found that to be the case when I started doing the podcast and I don't think I expected that to happen. So that was a real surprise. And I think there are also a lot of people
00:19:10
Speaker
who say that they're fans of Agatha Christie, but 70 to 80% of their consumption of Agatha Christie is films and television series. And that's fine. I mean, that's part of the beauty of Agatha Christie, that her stories have been adapted as many times as they have. But if you're not actually going to the text, I think that also can result in a bit of a misapprehension when it comes to what Agatha Christie is actually doing as a writer. The best way I think I can
00:19:39
Speaker
encapsulate the revelation that I had as to her unique writing is that it's almost as if she is creating myths or adult fairy tales. I've said this many, many times on the podcast at this point, but she writes in this sort of almost elemental way.
00:19:55
Speaker
that I think really speaks to people deeply, which is why we come back to her work again and again and again and can't get enough of it. But I also think it's very easy to dismiss her work because it is written in these sort of broad strokes and
00:20:14
Speaker
It's conveyed very simply. And I think it's so easy to overlook how difficult it is to write simply and clearly. I think that Agatha Christie is one of the best writers ever. And there are so many people who would laugh me out of the room still with that statement and people who have read practically every Christie and who love her. So I don't think I expected to become as much of a zealot Agatha Christie, the writer, as I have.
00:20:42
Speaker
But I I really have. And yeah, I I I think that she is both one of the world's most popular and misunderstood writers. And that just fascinates me. That contradiction really fascinates me.
Favorite Character and Book Series Announcement
00:21:00
Speaker
And so what did you learn about yourself and your reading preferences through the podcast? Well, I clearly learned that I love Agatha Christie. I really love Agatha Christie. I
00:21:13
Speaker
I think I learned also that I'm passionate about mysteries.
00:21:18
Speaker
to a greater degree than I realized before the podcast. And this affected, you know, I know you asked about my reading, but this also affected my writing. You know, I had published one novel before the podcast and I think about halfway through the podcast, I had been struggling on a second manuscript and I thought to myself, well, I have been reading Agatha Christie nonstop for years now and I'm still not sick of her and I can't get enough of her.
00:21:47
Speaker
Why am I not writing a mystery right now? Why have I not done that? And it sounds so stupid that it took me years to get to that point, but it really did. And I don't think I would have asked myself that question if it hadn't been for the podcast.
00:22:02
Speaker
That in turn affected my reading because then I also wanted to read a bit more widely. And I think even though the podcast was very much centered on Agatha Christie, I have expanded my reading of mystery authors overall. I'd say another big lesson, though, as a reader is that I learned that you do have to vary
00:22:23
Speaker
Your reading experience because I would get to points Throughout the process of covering these books from the podcast where I was like, okay I need to stop reading Agatha Christie for a little bit This is this is a bit much and other mystery authors, too I have to step outside of the genre and you know, I grew up loving Victorian literature in particular I was always a
00:22:45
Speaker
you know, Brontes, Dickens, Henry James, Thomas Hardy, kind of a guy, and also Jane Austen, not Victorian, but you know, I've of course loved my Jane Austen. And I had to, I think,
00:23:05
Speaker
pepper my reading with some of those classic authors again and do that very intentionally because if you read just one author or even just one genre of fiction, I think that it can get a little stale, you know? And I think it was important at least for me to vary what I was taking in both as a reader and a writer. And then the other thing I'll say,
00:23:32
Speaker
the podcast taught me is the power of nonfiction. I had always been one of those people who
00:23:39
Speaker
read probably 90% fiction, 10% nonfiction. And I had to read so much nonfiction for the podcast because there are so many great reference books out there as to Agatha Christie's writing and biographies of Agatha Christie and you know these wonderful books like The Forensics of Agatha Christie written by Carla Valentine and
00:24:03
Speaker
A is for arsenic by Catherine Harkup about the poisons of Agatha Christie. Just stacks and stacks of books. And I realized how important nonfiction really is if you want to get, you know, the full breadth of knowledge about something. And that, too, sounds like such an obvious thing. Like I'm as a reader, how could I not have realized that before the podcast?
00:24:26
Speaker
I think I finally understood why it's so important to read both fiction and nonfiction as a reader or why you have to do both. If you want to be a fully informed person in the world, I don't actually think it's enough to read fiction alone. And before the podcast, I definitely would not have said that. So I now actually really do make an effort to read more nonfiction and not
00:24:52
Speaker
Not quite half. I mean, I really do love my novels, but I make a concerted effort to read more nonfiction these days. So after reading Christie's, all of Christie's works, do you have a favorite sleuth of hers?
00:25:06
Speaker
Yeah, I always insist on asking everyone I bring on to my podcast. You have to choose. Is it Poirot or Marco? Who's your favorite? So I guess it's only fair that I answer the question for myself. I do. My favorite sleuth of Christie's is Miss Marple. There's no question. I just adore Miss Marple. And even though some of Christie's most impressive books puzzle wise are Poirot's, many of them really are. I think that
00:25:34
Speaker
You can feel Christie's own adoration for the character of Miss Marple in those books that she created. And even if they're not all the cleverest as to puzzle, I think they're all incredibly well written. And there's some of the more literary Christie's actually among the canon. So and I just love the character of Miss Marple. I love everything about her. I can't get enough of her. So, yeah, Miss Marple all the way.
00:26:04
Speaker
So, Kemper, where can listeners find you? You mentioned that you've got a new book coming out. Yes. So I will. Listeners can find the podcast wherever you are listening to this podcast. It's called All About Agatha. And you can find me a couple of different ways. The podcast is on Twitter at All About the Dame and on Instagram at All About Agatha. And then I recently
00:26:31
Speaker
as an author, started a Facebook page, Kemper Donovan Books. And I also have an author website, which is just KemperDonovan.com, www.KemperDonovan.com. And I think we'll be doing some links to all of these in the show notes for the episode. So yeah, I would encourage anyone if they're curious to
00:26:52
Speaker
to click on some of those links, as well as one even to preorder my mystery novel. I have to, you know, do that self-promotion, I suppose. But yeah, we're now in the preorder days here for the novel, which is coming out in January 2024. And can you tell us a little bit about it? Sure. So the novel is called The Busy Body.
00:27:15
Speaker
And it is entirely contemporary. It's actually the first in a three-book series. I sold the book as a three-book series to Kensington Books, who are a fantastic publisher. They publish a lot of mysteries. They really know what they're doing in the mystery genre.
00:27:32
Speaker
my spin on the detective genre, because I wanted to do something a little different. I figured if I'm going to do this, I have to do something a little original. Instead of having a series long detective character, I actually have a series long sidekick character.
00:27:50
Speaker
So it's as though, you know, Hastings is the character who travels from book to book pairing up with different detectives in each and in very different settings as well. So each book will feature a very different world, but we'll have this character anchoring them. And the character is a ghostwriter. She is a ghostwriter primarily for celebrity memoirs, though not exclusively.
00:28:15
Speaker
And in the first book, she is pairing up with this female politician who just very publicly lost a national election and is holding up in her house and wants to finally write that tell all memoir about her life and her experience in the election. And while they are getting into this project, one of her neighbors dies under mysterious circumstances and from their mystery and mayhem ensues.
00:28:44
Speaker
And it's a lot of fun. It's you know, it has it has some poppy elements and a very contemporary setting, but I very deliberately used a lot of the tricks that Christie uses because I don't think any of us can do better as as mystery authors than Agatha Christie. So all I can really do is work in in homage to her and.
00:29:07
Speaker
My goal was to create a mystery that fans of Christie would recognize as inspired by Christie in terms of the crafting of the puzzle, even though it would be set in, you know, a contemporary setting that I felt I could evoke. And even though I'm using Christie's some of Christie's tricks as to the puzzle, I, of course, did not ape her writing style whatsoever, because as I was saying, I think Christie was unique. No one can write like Agatha Christie.
00:29:35
Speaker
So even though I have my own much more conventional, you know, more, I'd say along the lines of, you know, a P.D. James, I should be so lucky if I'm writing like I'm not actually forget that I'm not comparing myself to P.D. James. But all I'm saying is I don't think that I'm as as special or unique of a writer as Agatha Christie, but I was inspired by her on the level of puzzle nonetheless. So I hope that that comes through to readers of the book.
00:30:04
Speaker
I love that concept camper, the recurring sidekick, super original, super fun. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Let's fingers crossed. I hope it works. And, you know, three book series at minimum, I would love to if if if I could only write, you know, 66, I don't think I want to do 66 books in the Ghostwriter series, but I think I got more than three in me if they'll allow me. I'm wonderful.
Closing Remarks
00:30:31
Speaker
Thank you so much for joining us, Kemper. This was this was a really great conversation. And thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed this. Yes. Thank you, Kemper. This is such a treat. And thank you all for listening today to Clued in Mystery. I'm Brooke. And I'm Sarah. And we both love mystery.
00:30:50
Speaker
Clued In Mystery is produced by Brooke Peterson and Sarah M. Stephen. Music is by Shane Ivers at Silvermansound.com. Visit us online at CluedInMystery.com or social media at CluedInMystery. If you liked what you heard, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or telling your friends.