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“Cadaverous pallors and auras of foreboding”: Victorian influence at the Haunted Mansion with Victoria Pettersen Lantz
108 Plays1 year ago
Where the crypt doors creak, you know there's some bangin' fashion! The maids and butlers of Disneyland's Haunted Mansion are some of the most turned out cast members in the park, but what-- and when-- are their costumes referencing? Join Marley and her guest Victoria Pettersen Lantz to talk about the Victorian fashion influences in everyone's favorite haunted home.
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Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and Disney Fashion
00:00:15
Speaker
Disney films, parks, and everything in between. I'm your host, Marley, a fashion scholar, curator, and enthusiast of almost all things Disney, particularly when it comes to fashion. I've been thinking a lot about one of my favorite rides at Disneyland, the Haunted Mansion. This is a must ride every time we go to the park, and I can remember loving the Haunted Mansion since I was a kid.
00:00:37
Speaker
I think a lot of people have that same sort of sentiment. I remember being extremely excited about the movie, ah the first one when it came out in 2003. And then again, when the recent one came out, because the mansion has such a strong visual aesthetic. And I really appreciate any opportunity to see that kind of manifested. um There are a lot of things to be said about the overall styling of the mansion, its history in the context of the parks and its immense effect on pop culture.
00:01:05
Speaker
ah in general, but today I really want to focus on one particularly fashionable element of the ride's whole experience, ah the maids and the butlers.
The Haunted Mansion's Fashion and Role
00:01:14
Speaker
These stoic ladies and gentlemen usher guests from the mansion's stately grounds in New Orleans Square and Disneyland into the haunted halls, donning uniforms that indicate a time long since past.
00:01:27
Speaker
But what exactly is it that they're projecting? Is it refined Southern propriety? Is it staunch Victorian social divisions, Edwardian economic mobility? Maybe it's a little bit of all the above.
00:01:42
Speaker
Today, helping me to sift through all of these questions is Victoria Pederson-Lance, a scholar, dramaturg, and artist living in East Texas, where she is an associate professor and associate chair of theater and musical theater at Sam Houston State University. Her recent Disney work includes articles in the Journal of American Culture, Popular Culture Review, the Journal of Popular Culture, and a revision to her work on indigenousness in Disney World in the forthcoming second edition of Performance and the Disney Theme Park Experience, The Tourist as Actor. She is the co-editor of a forthcoming Palgrave collection of colonial practices in Victorian fashion. So Vicky, thanks so much for joining me. It's really nice to to see you ah via the interwebs here. um What I'd really love is for you to kind of share a little bit about your work and then perhaps where Disney media comes into it.
Victoria's Insights on Disney's Theatrical Influence
00:02:40
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate getting the opportunity to talk about. um The parks and the ways in which I think they're super theatrical, right? Everything is performative and it's all geared to some sort of immersive performance and experience, which I think about a lot. um My way, way back when I was doing my dissertation, I was thinking about um ah Caribbean theater and how the tourist industry feeds our understanding of the Caribbean
00:03:15
Speaker
And then I got into thinking about Caribbean tourism in general with big, complicated things like Robinson Crusoe narratives or other narratives that are trying to define ah this very British sentiment about what the Caribbean looks like and how that sticks around.
00:03:35
Speaker
and then there was a natural connection to the ways in which super manufactured spaces where you can have authentic tourist experiences like in the Disney parks ah come into play. um And there was a weird thing that began this connection for me in the Polynesian resort in Florida many years ago. There was a clothing store that was geared towards men. And it was Robinson Crusoe Esquire. Why? Disney also has some real wacky Robinson Crusoe background, not just Swiss Family Robinson, but also there was ah Robin Crusoe, Dick Van Dyke, Nancy Kwan movie from the
00:04:26
Speaker
late 50s about um World War II and being stuck on an island. And so just some wild ideas. um There's a really old Disney cartoon from the 30s called Mickey's Man Friday. So you can imagine some of what would be happening as Mickey is um on this little indigenous island. And so um I started thinking about what Disney does and how it thinks about the world. And it's such a global influence that we have to reconcile
00:05:02
Speaker
how um our experience with Disney informs a lot of our ah personal understandings of culture and popular culture. And so I think about it all the time. And then I go to the parks and I love being in the parks and then think about all the wild stuff I see when I'm in the parks.
The Magical Escape of Disney Parks
00:05:21
Speaker
It's kind of nuts, right? ah Yeah. I love having conversations like this with people who, you know,
00:05:27
Speaker
Enjoy the parks and you have such a great time with your there. You can kind of suspend your disbelief, but you get so hung up on whatever your focus is and trying to kind of validate and rationalize decisions that the mind reels a little bit. Yeah.
00:05:45
Speaker
It was my first experience. I grew up on the West Coast. So I went to Disneyland a few times as a kiddo and then as a teen. And that was cool. But then it was a very long gap and I had never traveled to Florida. And I went to a conference in Orlando and they gave ah people involved in this academic theater conference steeply discounted tickets to Walt Disney World. So that was the first time I went and I went with some um grad school friends and it was right after my spouse ah who is cancer free but was going through cancer treatment and so it was like a stressful time and I was in these spaces and I sort of it clicked for me that well I guess I understand why people call this a magical space because I wasn't thinking about um illness and I was having fun with friends and it was a bunch of stuff from my childhood just churning out in terms of
00:06:43
Speaker
sounds and smells and looks and music and dancing and entertainment. And so um I really invest in the ways people love being in the parks and then also reconcile what it is we're constantly seeing in the parks that make us go, hmm, should we think about this more? so i really And now ah my ah very loving husband comes to the parks all the time.
00:07:13
Speaker
um and they hip like has a high threshold for it. um He had never been to the Florida parks till we started going. um But his one of his favorite rides is Haunted
The Haunted Mansion's Unique Appeal
00:07:25
Speaker
Mansion. It's a like top notch for him in terms of comfort, ease, enjoyment, music, dark ride. It just checks so many boxes that we make sure we're doing that multiple times in a Disney trip. Yeah, I totally feel that. ah my My husband's kind of the same way where he
00:07:45
Speaker
is very obliging when it comes to the the Disney activities and has kind of turned to corn and really does enjoy himself when we go. But Haunted Mansion, you know, it's a great ride, you know, we'll we'll get into all of the the fun stuff about it. But it ticks so many boxes. It's fairly lengthy. Yep. Sit down.
00:08:06
Speaker
It's a dark ride. It's air conditioned. you know yeah I've known folks to fall asleep. After a very, yeah. At the end of a day, Haunted Mansion is great. Also, it's upon the ride-and-doom buggies. right There's just so much that's ah like cute and fun.
00:08:28
Speaker
and delightful about it. It riddles with dad humor a little bit. It does, yes. That's kind of appreciated. I kind of like that.
00:08:40
Speaker
ah but Well, before we get too much actually into the mansion, really quick, before the topic at hand, I want to know, do you have a favorite Disney fashion moment?
00:08:51
Speaker
i I was thinking about this and I have a couple, I have like a childhood one and then an adult one. So as a kid who watched a lot of Disney stuff, um I think that in The Great Mouse Detective you have ah ah Olivia and she's just dressed like I think how I wished as a child I somehow could manifest, like a a cute little kilt, and a little beret. Oh, Tamashanta hat. yeah whole star him And she just like, looked, you know, she's, she was cute and fun and, and, and trying to save her dad and and doing all these great things. But she just looked very put together while doing it. Yeah, I can appreciate that. the The hat is a great
00:09:47
Speaker
touch on that character. I i love the hat. And then there's the scary moment when, I can't remember the bat character's name, but when they trick Basil to thinking it's Olivia and it's really the scary character. So like a jump scare that happens there because he's wearing the hat. um ah And then as an adult, one of, I think a standout moment in fashion in general was um when Claire Danes was at the Met, I think it was the Met Gala in 2016, she had the Cinderella dress.
00:10:20
Speaker
And it was filled with fiber optic. So it looks like Cinderella's dress in natural light. But then when they turned out the lights, it glowed from the inside. And it was so intense.
00:10:38
Speaker
Uh, and it, you know, just this really, I think it was a Zach Posen dress. And so you have this, you're right yeah, you have this light blue classic Cinderella, you know, the silhouette, um, you know, the cut, you know, the look, and then they turn out the lights. And when I think about fiber optics.
00:11:00
Speaker
ah disney I think about Disney or other fun parks or ah expos or or big events where you can buy the little, like if you go to the zoo for a holiday thing, you can buy a little fiber optic toy. And it's that same sort of glow that was inside the dress. And to me, I just thought, what a inventive look. It reminds me a lot of like the paint the night um ah parade.
00:11:29
Speaker
costumes. and Speaking of the Cinderella at the Met, like the Zendaya, is it a Tommy Hilfiger dress that she wore? Oh, yes. She had a really similar and she had her hair up in the Cinderella style. Yes, similar hairdo. Yeah, the that the Claire Danes dress. I had kind of forgotten about that. But yeah, that's a really good one. Yeah. Love a Disney inspo moment on the carpet. What was wild about that one is that I think it was set at the time. And then I looked and I just saw an article that said it to you. People were comparing it to the live action Cinderella that I think had just come out. And to me, I thought, whoa, I would never, cause I don't know it. I never watched it on the live action. I think is for a different audience than I currently am right now. And so I was just thinking of the amount of exposure I've had to the animated Cinderella. And I would never draw the line to the new Cinderella. It just would be, you know, original Cinderella dress for me. For the purposes of this, we're going to keep it a little bit tight. We're going to focus on the Haunted Mansions in Disneyland.
Victorian Influence on Haunted Mansion Costumes
00:12:38
Speaker
ah Disney World and then sort of by extension Tokyo Disney um rather than like Phantom Manor in Paris or Mystic Manor in Hong Kong which isn't really it's not a haunted mansion ah but it sort of gets like lumped together with the other supernatural homes, ah but generally. The costumes are the same between Disneyland and Disney World. um I think there's like a slight difference to the apron on the Tokyo Disneyland costumes, but you do see variations in phantom manner and mystic manner ensembles, which are a very different color scheme, different silhouettes. They have other kind of distinctive details that vary based on referenced time periods and cultures. These costumes though, for the mansion,
00:13:21
Speaker
they haven't really changed much since the ride's openings. And there's there's so much, I think, that we can really say analyzing the mansion and the myriad timeframes that are represented within like the walls. And then, of course, the differences between the homes at the different parks. But for this episode, um we're going to be looking at the sort of Victorian influences in the costuming and the performance of the cast members. I have ideas about future episodes involving the mansion. So this isn't going to be the last time you'll hear about this.
00:13:51
Speaker
um The maids and the butlers are obviously an integral part of the ride because they have to guide guests in and out of the house, on and off the doom buggies, answer questions, et cetera. But they're also providing an and important and memorable performance element to the mansion experience, like overall.
00:14:13
Speaker
um They have a handful of kind of cutesy macabre sayings and grim retorts, but I think the kind of most memorable thing is certainly their ensembles. ah The costumes that they wear, they're instantly recognizable and they really have become so iconic in terms of the mansion itself, as well as their own sort of freestanding influence on park fashions for non-caste members. um The number of Disney bounds that I see of mansion maids yeah as well as like the merch that's sold on property and then by third-party retailers is staggering people love the haunted mansion and you know rightly so that's it's fun it's very whimsical it's otherworldly and it's a great look and it's a very i feel like it's a really distinctive look um compared to other areas of the park for the cast members so if you could
00:15:06
Speaker
sum up the servant styles for the mansion in a few words, what would you say about them? I would say that's, I totally agree with that they stand, they're so uniquely different than I think a lot of the other cast members that you see, each cast member tends to be regional, like they're in their land, but Haunted Mansion always seems to be an exception to that. And if I was summarizing them, I would say,
00:15:38
Speaker
Proto steampunk. Yeah. Because they've been around way longer than steampunk. But those crisp lines, those those dark colors, they really feel like goth, steampunk. You could do a D and&D campaign in the world that those. Sure. um Cast members live in. Yeah, totally. And I find them.
00:16:06
Speaker
in the face of the goth-ness too, they are like optimistically grim and foreboding, but in like a weird confectionary type of way? I don't know a better way to say that. like They kind of just remind me of like a somber version of like Plaza Inn or like the Candy Palace cast members. And maybe it's it might just be because of like the presence of the apron or like the lace. But it's obviously not the same costume. But the silhouette is very similar. um But it is very like confectionary, something about it.
00:16:45
Speaker
like Yeah, and I think that you could imagine with what you're saying, if they were painted pale pink and blue, you totally would, you would not bat an eye at them being in a confectionary. And I think part of that is that turn of the century serviced industry look and style that we see not just in the Disney parks, but if you go to an old boardwalk on the East Coast, those are the images you see on the wall. And when you walk into a confectionary, you know, on like Cape May, New Jersey, the walls are painted in that exact same style. You see those Victorian lace cameos. I mean, it just like fits that environment. And so you take versions of that. And again, you just like dip dye them into their, their my
00:17:40
Speaker
they're goth tinged. So it never feels scary or unnerving, but it does feel kind of like you're setting your place a little bit by the cast members there. Yeah, there is a severity there. Yes, yes. But a severity that reminds me of the Adams family or the Munsters, right? That the servants are stoic, but we enjoy their type of stoicism. Sure. It's like a bunch of Wednesday Adams, like leading you in and out of here. Yes. So to kind of help frame those particular fashions, I want to chat really briefly about the setting of the mansion. You were mentioning
00:18:25
Speaker
you know, the look of the Disneyland one. And it is very, very iconic and very specific to its surroundings. yeah Each mansion, it it is a little different and has its own kind of persona and architectural styles and details for the Disneyland mansion. The building is supposed to evoke the antebellum American South. So Ken Anderson, who was an incredible animator at Disney Studios, he found himself tasked by Walt Disney in 1957 to work on concepts for a haunted house attraction at Disneyland. ah Ken Anderson, by the way, had credits on so many Disney classics ah like Fantasia, 101 Dalmatians, The Aristocats, a number of Disneyland and Disney World rides and experiences. This guy was all over the place.
00:19:13
Speaker
um He was looking at southern plantation houses and Victorian style homes for inspiration and several houses including a place called Shipley Lidecker House in Baltimore, Maryland.
Design and Style Inspirations of Disneyland Mansion
00:19:24
Speaker
um If you look at the picture of ah this building, um I will post some pics on social media you know following all of this so everyone can see what we're talking about. If you look at the Shipley Lidecker House, you absolutely see what the point of reference is.
00:19:41
Speaker
And then from Anderson's earliest concepts for the mansion story, there was going to be a maid or a butler character who acted to some degree as a guide and the idea of a guide of some sort was pretty consistent through every treatment that the haunted house ride received. So by the time the thing was actually built, there was a definite aesthetic to the outside that intended to fit into the surroundings of New Orleans Square, you know with the raw iron, the fencing, and the southern plantation vibe. ah So Disneyland's Haunted Mansion, it opened to the public in 1969, and it it took a while for this to to finally come into fruition.
00:20:20
Speaker
The mansion at Disney World is very different looking on an outside and they really bailed on that southern style opting to go for this kind of more Dutch Gothic inspo to meld um with the lingering kind of Victorian influence and match the vibe of Liberty Square. So that mansion, they opened in 1971 and then the mansion at Tokyo Disneyland, which is I think it's practically the same in appearance, opened in 1983. So these all happen in a pretty rapid succession of each other. ah I can't find something that specifically credits the design of the Maids and Butlers costume costumes to any one Imagineer, but I'm kind of keeping an eye out for like concept art and such that might have a particular artist signed off on it or you know things like that. ah One of my long-term projects,
00:21:13
Speaker
when I get to it as things turn up is kind of figuring out the history of cast member costuming um from the parks opening and the development of storytelling through it across parks, etc. And what I kind of love about analyzing Disneyland and other parks costumes is that sort of inception of costuming, which is very amusing and very complex. You have to consider the timeframe of when the costumes were designed alongside what time period um the costumes are actually designed for. So like for the mansion, we're thinking about antebellum, late Victorian period in the styling.
00:21:54
Speaker
but also the general influence of the 1960s when they were created. And then again, like in the 1990s, when there were some redesigns and little updates here and there. So you kind of have to imagine these outfits in a really broad context, which is, I find to be super fun. So let's start breaking down the outfits. Maybe we'll do for the men and the women's looks. The color scheme, it's black and like, what, like hunter green and white.
00:22:24
Speaker
um and some purple. um The butlers have some purple. but the maids do not. These aren't typical household servant colors, but the individual pieces, they're not a far cry from practical garments of the 19th century. And that's not to say that there wasn't any color in servants dresses um or you know things that like household staff were wearing and that everything was black and white, because that's definitely not the case. And stripes aren't an uncommon pattern or anything.
00:22:58
Speaker
so I feel like this is, it's completely in the realm of possibility if you had a very eccentric or very specific master or mistress of the home. ah So for the women, I guess we'll start at the top with the little lace cap. hu It's very cute. It it is very cute. um app I love the little bat. um I think it's a headband. It's not like a, um It's not like an actual hat. It's like a little headband with a doily looking piece of lace on top with the bat. and I think this is kind of interesting. It's not a mob cap and it's not a bonnet. It doesn't cover hardly any hair. It's not really serving a um ah practical function. Right. and That's what's so interesting, I think, about some of the cast member clothing is that it's hinting at something, but it's not doing the job because
00:23:56
Speaker
Really, that would be to um protect as a servant was cleaning, ah to keep their hair up and out of the way and to look presentable. And right we're in a very sort of prude time period historically. And so there's a level of propriety that goes along with hair coverings. And so that's some another element that it's hinted at.
00:24:24
Speaker
and not dealt with. Right. I think that's the interesting part, is the not dealing with some of the ideas that are presented by it. And I mean, on the one hand, that's not what I'm going to Disneyland for. and I'm not trying to... Exactly, right. Yeah. I'm not trying to fully understand that. And you know, at the same time, it's funny about the their headpieces in particular, you do also see in photographs and illustrations, like in the 19th century, some small cap-like lacy headpieces that are a little bit more on the frivolous side. I think i said I sent you some images ah before, and there's one in particular. This was the wildest looking thing on this ah this group of maids' heads. It was like this cone-shaped lace monstrosity, and it was big. like It was really tall, and it had like some kind of ribbon thing down the back.
00:25:12
Speaker
It was quite large. I'll try to remember to post a ah picture of it. So it's very silly. And it does sort of resemble the mansion headpiece. So even though, you know, the maids at our mansion aren't really doing anything practical with, you know, because their hairstyles too, we'll talk about that. But the actual style, it's not it's not that much of a stretch from some things that I've seen. ah hundred percent Something interesting that I find, because I'm currently doing this other project on how animals were used in fashion in the Victorian era, that there's excesses in very unusual ways. And um I'm talking about the muff, the muff as a piece, an accessory piece, but the ways in which
00:26:04
Speaker
women in particular could accentuate or advertise or blast a certain level of wealth or excess or excess eccentricities is part of it. And so some of these head pieces have a similar sort of vibe, right? You can form to the general rule of thumb and the social standard. And then you can push those boundaries a little bit to be fashionable or to make a statement or to slightly defy social expectations, which I think is such an interesting part of Victorian fashion, because I think people feel, sort of could sort of stereotypically say, yeah they're buttoned up, right? Right. And they are.
00:26:52
Speaker
But there are all sorts of ways in which some of those very demure fashion pieces were changed or or made to be more bold or striking. um like with some of the Like a slightly larger ribbon, we think, oh, that's not a big deal. But it would be really interesting in a social gathering if something felt a little excessive.
00:27:20
Speaker
Yes, the the Victorian kind of interpretation of fashion and accessories and things like that. It's a whole world of symbolism and meanings.
00:27:31
Speaker
and interpretation that you know if you're in the know, you can kind of glean specific um things that an individual is trying to convey. A lot of times it's like, oh, well, I'm trying to convey you know status and wealth. But you know people can also convey you know what they're looking for you know in a social situation, you know something more romantic. You're here to you know chat with your girlfriends. You're not you know doing anything else. But it is really interesting to,
00:27:59
Speaker
to learn from the clothing that it's not simply you know it is what it is right well i mean it is what it is but it's also maybe three or four additional things if you know what you're looking at moving down from the headpiece their top is green and black striped material with these elbow length puffed sleeves. They have a white collar and white cuffs. The skirt is solid green, but the apron over it is the same fabric as the blouse. And this I thought was kind of an interesting detail, whether it's intentional or not, ah because like in the, unlike the 1870s, the mixing of complimenting
00:28:40
Speaker
complimenting but different um fabrics and materials was very fashionable. um So I've, you know, again, whether it is intentional or not, that feels like kind of a nice nod ah to something that was actually, you know, a real thing. And The hairstyles, too, at going again back to the hat real quick, the hairstyles in the 19th century in a serving capacity, what you had kind of mentioned earlier, um
Costume Details: Capes, Coats, and Hair
00:29:06
Speaker
they were worn up. The hair was up, out of the way, but not necessarily completely covered. like I don't know how consistent this is, but in some photos, too, I had forgotten about this until I just saw it earlier. There's photos of the cast members. You can see them wearing these little like shoulder cape mantle type
00:29:26
Speaker
have coverings, which were a fashionable accessory in like the 1870s. You see a lot of these with um traveling costumes and like walking ensembles and fashion plates and illustrations of the period. they look like um on the On the pictures that I have seen of cast members wearing them, they look like they could be yeaht like jackets, but with the little cloaks attached so that they still have like arms and sleeves underneath.
00:29:56
Speaker
um And the, you know, capes and caplets, they kind of come in and out of fashion every few decades. So I'm not surprised that this style is utilized in that kind of whimsical way every so often at the parks, especially for this particular group of cast members. Now, I think you have them too. Yeah. I wonder if the little caplets, uh, I have been to the Florida parks on the very rare occasion where it is cold. And if it starts out 40 degrees,
00:30:28
Speaker
Um, so for example, I talked to Pocahontas a lot when I'm in the parks and she usually is wearing something that is like her costume in the movie. But during wintertime, she has a buckskin coat over and I've seen pictures of this. Yes. Okay.
00:30:47
Speaker
So a lot of park members have some sort of winter wear if they have to work in the outdoor areas. And so I wonder if those little capelets are the haunted mansion. It's below 60 degrees.
00:31:04
Speaker
so they need a little extra because they're outside. And I'm trying to remember, I can't, I have been in Magic Kingdom in Florida when it's been particularly chilly. And so they all cast members have some sort of coat and I just can't remember the Haunted Mansion one, but I totally think it's that for the men's, it's that larger sort of pea coat, trench coat look, but it has a little cape Yes. And I've seen on Disneyland cast members too, the women, they don't always have the cape. Sometimes it's like just a big, long, like duster style. Like it's just it's just big and like flat and it's just a coat and that's it. So there doesn't really seem to be any rhyme or reason. And I'm i'm really curious, like there might not be any reason to at all. They might only have X number of, you know, the cape ones. and Right. That's what I was wondering. Do they only have a certain amount, but they're trying to signal
00:31:59
Speaker
with their winter wear, when they occasionally need it, they try to signal, we're still in this world. Yeah. And that yeah might appreciate that. And that's where I like to think that it's that, that it's a nod to an actual style. And, you know, there is some more thought behind it, but i do too who knows? um So for the, for the butlers, they don't wear hats as part of the ensemble.
00:32:21
Speaker
Makes sense. ah Since they're butlers, they work inside the home. ah Some sort of footman, perhaps. ah Clearly they aren't going anywhere. ah They have white shirts, black ties, green jackets and pants, and the striped purple kind of waistcoat.
00:32:36
Speaker
um Their coats, they're a little ambiguous time-wise because I can certainly see Victorian and Edwardian style represented with the livery coat. um That's short in the front with tails in the back. yeah ah And back to like, you know, hair and, you know, for men, facial hair. In the later half of the 19th century, men had a pretty wide array of facial hairstyles, but generally shorter and styled hair, you know, on top of their head. And, you know, when you see like the maids and the butlers in the parks now, yeah they have whatever hairstyle, the women's hair, it's down. you know men have you know As long as everybody's camped, it doesn't matter. They're not trying to adhere to a very rigid you know look you know for hair styling at the time because honestly, they would have to be wearing wigs. like There's no way anyone would be styling their hair for this, ah yeah for any of that. um
00:33:30
Speaker
I mentioned that I see some Edwardian influence. I'm not really talking about them today. We're talking more about kind of the Victorian thing, but I do see the Edwardian influence in these costumes as well. but I think that's sort of just coincidental given this generic attitude toward historic dress when it comes to costume design. yeah I've spoken about this many times and will continue to bring it up, but I'm really interested in the sort of phenomenon of costume design pulling from historic dress and the various ways that it's an amazing thing to see in the context of storytelling and then an absolute,
00:34:07
Speaker
insanity to observe from a historical accuracy standpoint, yeah but I'm not mad about it. like what it um The Edwardian period is typically classified as the years between 1901 and 1910. Also, yeah know the standard silhouette of service uniforms, they didn't change all that dramatically in the early 20th century, so it's not like an insane stretch of the imagination.
00:34:31
Speaker
um also i Also, I'm going to rein myself back a little bit. The Victorian period, yeah know we've I've mentioned it a couple of times. The Victorian period in the United Kingdom took place generally ah during the rule of Queen Victoria from 1837 to 1901. Here in the United States, there are several kind of distinct movements occurring within that timeframe, including things like reconstruction and the Industrial Revolution and you know all of that, which kind of earned the moniker here being the Gilded Age.
00:35:02
Speaker
um the What um are some things that the Victorians were obsessed with? um I mean, like, for example, I always think of them enjoying museums and like Cabinet of Curiosity yeah type shows. And I'm kind of interested in their, you know, relationship and fascination with ah death and the macabre. And, you know, like we know Victorians favor, you know, mourning jewelry and wearing black during the various stages of mourning.
00:35:28
Speaker
um And frankly, like the dichotomy of a group who is so enthusiastic for athletic and intellectual pursuits, but also so rigid and uptight in social behavior. yeah like it a lot of A lot of my master's research was actually kind of exploring fashion in active sportswear at the turn of the century and into the 1920s and 30s. So I'm i'm curious, you know in your research,
00:35:53
Speaker
ah what what you find kind of interesting about the Victorians and their styling. So the Victorians, the thing that I'm thinking about obviously is a bit of this, what they did to animals with and to animals um and some of the very wild things that happened there. But I think that you're right, at least in my mind, the Victorian social conventions hold even as we transition into the Edwardian period. And so some of the ways in which a visitor to the park might not see the bleed or overlap or or historical inaccuracies the way you and I might, I think they just sort of look at that period and because the Victorian dominated more that I think that's the immediate association, whether the time period is sort of like
00:36:48
Speaker
blurry or or bleedy between them. The thing that I think about all the time with the Victorians is their obsession with collecting stuff and putting in a bunch of stuff in their spaces. So super busy wallpaper full of stripes and flowers and imagery. And then you put a giant bookshelf in that space and then fill it with tiny objects.
00:37:19
Speaker
and then put some of those tiny objects onto their bodies. So there was this weird or not weird, very cool, but, but a trend we don't see anymore was travel buttons. That's not the term. It's what I call it. Um, they're large buttons that are decorative and not serve a purpose. They'd almost be the size of a brooch.
00:37:45
Speaker
And if um so some young ladies were traveling to say a coastal town, And they found a couple of beetles and a couple of small shells and a flower. They would put them all inside their buttons while the Beatles were still alive. And then close it up and then wear it so that in a social occasion, as this beetle is dying over time, they could say, oh, my recent trip to so and so rightly, you could say, Oh my gosh. Yeah, show off your ah very exciting accessory that you made that memorializes this moment. um I think that's such a ah fun way to remember a trip that you had. I think a lot of people take mementos, but the Victorians take the idea of memory and memento and
00:38:40
Speaker
take it to a really, lots of extremes. We have- And it's very physical. Very physical, yeah. And I think photography helps this, right? Because you can do echo photography or ghost photography where you're basically seeing ah the plates that cast a human-like shadow onto another plate and therefore there's a lot of spirituality. And so there is that idea of collecting stuff to remember or memorialize and then what I think about all the time.
00:39:13
Speaker
is collecting stuff to prove you're very rich as a country. So I think about the World's Fair and Expositions a lot, like the the Chicago World's Fair, London, Crystal Palace, ah Paris. um And I think about the huge, you know, going to Brazil and cultivating and taking a ton of hummingbirds, taxidermying them, and then putting them in this huge Crystal Palace display. And just that is just for everyone to see. And people would get dressed up to look very stylish, to go to those spaces, to be seen while looking at
00:39:58
Speaker
collections of animals or collections of objects, and of course, peoples, because peoples that were non-European were brought and and put on display too. And so it's a real idea of taking and displaying as much as possible is a real part of the Victorian era. And I think that bleeds into the mansion when you see in parts of the Haunted Mansion, there's a lot of stuff.
00:40:28
Speaker
Sure, yeah. And I think that's one of the things I think about the library is full, um certainly the attic is full. And so just the idea of stuff, objectory everywhere to show some sort of idea of social climbing or social acceptance is a big part of how I think about the Victorians.
00:40:52
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that's all fair. And it's, it's absolutely true. You do see that kind of represented in the mansion, um you know, with the wallpaper, and there's obvious collection that has happened and is can continuing you know to happen um through all the various generations that have gone through the mansion and, you know, the ghosts from all over the world who have and come there to, you know, to stay. um But yeah, I think that's a really fair point.
00:41:19
Speaker
One weird little, um it's not ah ah too much of a side tangent, but one weird little element of the mansion, particularly ah Mystic Manor, which we're not talking about, but the Haunted Mansion and parts of Walt Disney World is the Society for Explorers and Adventurers, this made up Disney society that people can do weird, interactive, ah immersive experiences with, but it's a very colonial Victorian khaki pith helmet um element. And Mystic Manor is owned by one of the SEA explorers. And so that's how you get into the some of this idea of collection and exploration as means of taking space. jung It's the Jungle Cruise ah skippers, canteens, all of that stuff too. But it does bleed in a little bit to the Haunted Mansion because
00:42:18
Speaker
Disney fans and the Disney parks have written those narratives to overlap. That is really interesting that they do that and how well the immersive and engagement element has has turned into with all of that. something um i I find it interesting to consider the difference between service dress and other contemporary dress styles for various social situations.
Victorian Fashion Elements in Uniforms
00:42:48
Speaker
So like I know people generally have a pretty strong image of what Victorian dress looks like, especially women's dress. um Most people imagine the long skirts and the enormous kind of gigo sleeves or colloquial the leg of mutton sleeves which get really popular in the 1890s and you see a lot of height and definition around the shoulder. ah The sleeves at the mid 19th century were a bit more subdued in size and overall shape and you did see a lot of elbow length and shorter sleeve styles but there is a lot of kind of oscillation on that spectrum like it wasn't always short sleeves it wasn't always long sleeve it wasn't always the big puff sleeves but um
00:43:26
Speaker
you know the men ah You always picture you know Victorian men in these multi-piece suits. Today, I think we're going to we'll stay with the service wear in the Victorian period. you know What is the uniform the for the Victorian and Gilded Age household staff?
00:43:43
Speaker
A maid's uniform would generally consist of a dress, perhaps a blouse and skirt with an apron and cap. It was typical for servants um to need to provide their own uniforms, but it wasn't uncommon for special items to be provided by the employers in the interest of uniformity. So giving all of your household staff, you know the one with the same types of aprons and the same types of caps. And depending on the size of the household, there would be more or less help. And there was a pretty staunch hierarchy within the ranks of those household servants. So different types of maids or footmen might require variations of a standard uniform to differentiate themselves. um So like for instance, a parlor maid from a kitchen maid
00:44:29
Speaker
are not going to have the same type of work, they're not going to be in the same places. ah Now the mansion maids, they don't have bib front aprons that cover the top portion of their ensemble, which would lead me to believe they're probably not working in the kitchens.
00:44:43
Speaker
um the style of cap, which is that sort of disc shaped doily, it's pretty standard of the styles worn by parlor maids, um which makes sense for the activities, you know, that we see these cast members engaging in, you know, ushering people in and out of the mansion, tending to its general upkeep and tidiness in those front of house rooms.
00:45:05
Speaker
um ah This is interesting little aside, I was thinking about this too. So in Ken Anderson's ah second version of the treatment for the mansion, he talks about how it's always nighttime inside the mansion. This could be an explanation for the more formal dark colored uniform of the servants. So household servants um in the Victorian period, they actually had wardrobe changes throughout a given day that were influenced by the time of day and the occasion that was taking place so especially in you know more well-to-do homes yeah dressing for dinner was pretty formal and guests were a very common occurrence you were going to have people inside your home and you wanted to make sure your staff was appropriately dressed to greet and serve them
00:45:51
Speaker
um Compared to, yeah so knowing all this, you know compared to actual maids and butlers in the 19th century, what is your opinion on the general, I will say this loosely, quote, authenticity of these ensembles? ah like very Yeah, I don't, well, I don't think it matters, right? Because yeah my read on it, and I'm curious your thoughts on it, is that I think when I see the Haunted Mansion cast members I don't think of historical moments or historical imagery. I think of My Fair Lady or Mary Poppins, where popular films crafted a narrative of how we think about service. Service at the turn of the 20th century, service at the end of the Victorian era.
00:46:47
Speaker
because that buttoned up uniformity, totally recognizable. But the sameness, if you think of the servant song in My Fair Lady, they all are so coordinated, obviously in their singing and their movement, but their dress matches so perfectly. And you think, ah, these are servants, they're they're cleaning, they're singing, and they are sort of pitched perfectly.
00:47:18
Speaker
look the same and the expectation is that look. So when I see those cast members, I think, yeah, that's the popular culture type of servant that I want and need to experience the Haunted Mansion. I also think the nighttime thing is super cool because then we get less, there are less once we're inside the mansion, there are less cast members once we're yeah in a zoom buggy.
00:47:43
Speaker
We're sort of on our own except for our host, the voice. right um But what do you think about that idea that it's pop culture in the early 20th century that's telling us what a 19th century servant looks like?
00:48:01
Speaker
Yeah, i I fully align with the notion that the illusion is more effective than a recreation. um And you know i in in my research and my writing, I talk about this a lot, you know how how Hollywood has historically pulled from you know art history as opposed to you know the historical record um because you're projecting an image and you want your image to be effective and frankly you know recreating Actual historic dress. It's not practical. It's not going to always give you the same effect. It's yeah absurdly expensive like there's so many reasons not to do it and ah the point is it's not going to give you the image that you have in your head and what people who are watching it are going to understand because not everybody's a historian not everybody knows historical fashion, you know, not everybody is you know intimately
00:48:57
Speaker
taught you know the the details of Victorians. Nobody needs all of that, but you have an idea and you can support that with a very specific image. And lots of people have seen the opening of Mary Poppins. Absolutely. or And a ton of people have seen My Fair Lady. I was just thinking about this because I am a theater historian and I've been thinking about Frontier and Frontierland and Davy Crockett. You know, we have this image of Davy Crockett in a raccoon skin cap. yeah The thing that sold out in 1955, every child in America had one. And his buckskin, and I was going through the historical record, there's no painting during Davy Crockett's lifetime where he wore an animal skin cap. He had a Stetson-like
00:49:47
Speaker
wide brimmed Western hat. In the late 1880s, someone painted him that way because, or in relation to, an actor named Frank Mayo was on stage with Buffalo Bill Cody and Mayo was Davy Crockett and guess what Davy Crockett wore? He wore the cap and the fringe and that's the Davy Crockett we see in Fess Parker and Walt Disney's in 1954 and 1955.
00:50:19
Speaker
So it's the popular image that became so accessible. And I wonder if it's something similar with the mansion. Yeah, it's it's whatever those images are that really capture the public's imagination. We are going to capitalize on those things. And ah you know how much do I think you know it matters?
00:50:39
Speaker
it it does it's I'm not watching a historical, you know, recreation of, you know, a Victorian home or, you know, in the antebellum. sa i'm I'm at the Haunted Mansion in Disneyland and this has a very specific look and that's that's what I am. Yeah. And there's tourism that is totally dedicated to the other side of what we're talking about where everything's historically accurate. I lived in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania for a year and their accuracy, their whole
00:51:12
Speaker
factions of people who do reenactments that get very upset if everything is not pitch perfect or or precise. even down to finding some of the historical buttons or belts that they can use. um And so you can find tourism that is steeped in historical accuracy, that is super interesting and engaging, or you can do this references to cultural norms that we recognize or popular culture that we immediately connect with.
00:51:47
Speaker
And that's why I love the colors of the Haunted Mansion cast member outfits. And that was going to be my next point was to kind of dig in on those a little bit. Because I think, again, people have, you know, these skewed ideas of, oh, in the past, everything's black and everything because, you know, you see black and white photography and like you kind of when you look at art history, the things that you're seeing, you know, that's years and years of you know, petite, like all of that stuff. But the mansions, ah costumes, I don't think it's that far of a stretch from a typical servant dress, except for the you know, the colors and the prints and everybody matches. But even still, you see like in 19th century photographs of maids wearing lighter colored dresses, ah pattern fabrics and blouses. I really just depended largely on the home that you were employed in and the level of status that you know,
00:52:40
Speaker
that home was interested in projecting. Like I've definitely heard of these very wealthy, you know, mistresses ordering color coordinating and complimenting garments for their household staff to match their home decor. um And even like chauffeurs were given ensembles that matched cars so that they knew, okay, so this chauffeur belongs to this car and we're all going out and everybody said how rich and coordinated we are. And isn't that great?
00:53:06
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's something about a sense of ownership of home that extended to the humans that worked there. So maybe not royalty and and and very upper upper class, but ah upper class or upper middle class in particular really strive for that idea of of showing wealth and that extends to the fact that your hallway wallpaper looks a certain way and the servant in that hallway may also match that.
00:53:46
Speaker
But the wild thing about the purple and green, I think, ah maybe it's an unhealthy thing that I think about, the arsenic green of dye, that, to you know, the idea of electric light and having much more well-lit spaces meant more unusual dyes. And so purples and greens became really, really popular. And so to me, that's another thing I think about with the, um particularly the Butler's uniform that,
00:54:15
Speaker
leads me into a Victorian headspace is that you have bolder colors than I would expect, certainly, but the colors are, when they were made, had chemicals and other things that that um people did not expect to have the outcome I don't think Disney's intentionally trying to evoke the arsenic green where where a bunch of people got ill. or ah But there is something about that um slightly non-naturalistic purple and green that I think reminds me of Victorian fashion. Sure.
00:54:56
Speaker
um
00:54:59
Speaker
Really, in that same vein, you Talking about you know the hierarchy of Victorians, um you know sort of the social classes, they have these like rigid social hierarchies that are absolutely observed and practiced in the 19th century. If you look at a wealthy home as the sort of like social microcosm, you see obvious dress differences, you know as well as very clear behavioral deliney delineations between those in a serving role and those who are kind of being served.
00:55:32
Speaker
so i think it's kind of important to call out that an important aspect of fashion is the behaviors associated with a particular styling. So it's not you know what you're wearing, it's also inclusive of how and what you're projecting through your behavior and attitude. So talking about behavior and attitude, I want to talk about the traditional roles of the housemaid or parlor maid and butlers and footmen.
00:55:55
Speaker
So like what do these people actually do around the house? ah Cause I was surprised to learn how much home specific duties they held. Like it wasn't just about attending to the the feeding and the dressing of the family that lived in the house. It was very much about kind of maintaining the home itself and just cleaning it and keeping the house. So it's interesting to consider how we put all of like that history in the context of the mansion to imagine what the maids and the butlers are doing amidst their ghostly masters.
00:56:29
Speaker
um
00:56:32
Speaker
This occurred to me earlier as I was thinking of this. I have a ridiculous but serious question that I feel like has bearing on the costumes here. Playing along that the mansion is for real, you know, yeah the story of Gracie, all of that. Are the servants living humans or are they ghosts?
00:56:49
Speaker
They don't wear makeup or anything that gives them ghostly appearances. They don't look like ghosts. I know that they've been referred to as quote, mortals, unquote. And I've always assumed that where i've assumed that these were just like regular living human people. um And it kind of just leads me to speculate about what the hiring process is. This is so stupid. But like, is Master Gracie like holding interviews? ah And it's like, this is the kind of stuff that you think about when you're standing in those queues for like 45 plus minutes, you're just like looking at the,
00:57:17
Speaker
ah exactly what's in the house. And you're like, Oh, I wonder, you know, how do all these maids work here? You know, what are the mind wanders? And so like, who is, who is providing these uniforms to these in employees?
00:57:31
Speaker
a matching set of uniforms? Yeah. Yeah. Everybody matches. So like, clearly, Gracie was loaded. He's got, you know, he has the money to coordinate his staff. So it's, it's neither here nor there. It's just something that like,
00:57:46
Speaker
I think about and curious. I also think they're living and it reminds me of you know classic gothic novels, more like a Dracula classic gothic novel. where so you know you some, you know, amazing ah spirit or a supernatural force compels them to work at the the mansion, um Dracula being more connected to the
00:58:21
Speaker
material plane maybe than um what's inside the mansion. But I do feel like it's a ah mortals being pulled into some sort of, you know, supernatural, gothic novel contract that they came out of. It could be and like, and the the reason I was thinking about that and why I've, you know, mentioned it is To me, that's tangentially kind of related to the performance of the cast members, which um I was mentioning before you know that your behavior and your attitude is part of your fashion. So the maids and the butlers, they wear a standard uniform. And among the many reasons that places have you wear a uniform is that uniforms kind of assist in making you feel representative of your employer.
00:59:09
Speaker
And they should perhaps influence your attitude and your behavior. So I just watched an interview about a woman who works as a maid at the mansion and she had said, quote, the cast member role for maids and butlers at the haunted mansion is to be a emotionless and steady. However, we are still greeting guests into our house. We are still greeting them for our hosts.
00:59:29
Speaker
So we should be pleasant even though it is a misconception that we can't smile," unquote. And the language around the mansion, like the way that ah members cast members speak to you and things like that, you're very much a guest to the home, but you're also very much in the minority in that you are alive and you're very much seen as ah other.
00:59:51
Speaker
um that you're there and you need to be, you know, you need to find your P's andques and Q's and you're going to see things that perhaps you shouldn't or you might not ordinarily. But I just, I think that's really interesting. And I think a lot of folks are kind of familiar with that idea of, you know, upstairs, downstairs dynamic of servants and the family they serve because of shows like Downton Abbey and, you know, the like.
01:00:17
Speaker
Do you want to maybe talk a little bit about that kind of feigned deference that the servants of, you know, the mansion, like the home and the guest that exists there? I totally agree. I think that it's a real challenge for cast members when they're in a more immersive space to keep ah their performance up, but then also address basic park needs. I think this was a particular challenge for Galaxy's Edge.
01:00:46
Speaker
because it really wants to tell stories. And sometimes people are just saying, I don't know what a refresher is, where's the bathroom, right? right With the Haunted Mansion, I think that I find that so interesting that it's not that there's no rule that says cast members can't smile, but I don't remember a ton of interactions with cast members in and around the mansion where it's a jolly,
01:01:15
Speaker
right happy, smiley atmosphere. And I, as a visitor, go in with the expectation that, you know, o I'm going to get a side glance if I'm too loud or if I'm, you know, behaving in in a way that feels not proper because they're dressed in such a well tailored, particularly for the male cast members, but, uh, that they, they, they look so sharp that you think, Oh, my behavior is being watched. And I think there is a weird, just sort of hint at, you know, maybe mild fetish of like this person is, is in charge and telling us what to do. And even though in terms of.
01:02:02
Speaker
Victorian hierarchy, servants, certain servants had more power than other servants, but they certainly are not the people in power. There is that deference to the idea of a butler. And that has carried through all kinds of media into the 20th century, all the way up to something like Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, where you have a very formally dressed British sounding person in a household saying, we run things, right? There's a lot ah lot of um universal we being used in those spaces.
01:02:43
Speaker
And that's what I feel like when I encounter the butler. I have that expectation, the butler are made, that they say, we universally are allowing you into our our house. Right. I i also read um an interview, it was actually on the Disney food blog with a former ah Disney World mansion cast member who had said,
01:03:07
Speaker
quote, we're not being mean to you. We're just in mourning. The whole storyline of the Haunted Mansion revolves around the fact that Master Gracie is now dead. Our employer has passed on. We're sad. We're morose. We're just playing the part. A lot of first time Disney World visitors don't really get the mansion maids and butlers because they're so used to the chipper outgoing demeanor of cast members throughout Magic Kingdom and Disney World in general. Everything at Disney World is all about the show.
01:03:37
Speaker
So within the mansion, you probably won't see too many smiling faces. If you ask a question, you might be met with a very short answer. It's not our job to scare you or freak you out. That often just happens accidentally. However, it is our job to mourn the late master Gracie in training. They told us that the further away we are from the mansion, the bigger our smiles can be." unquote And I find that so interesting that they're specifically talking about mourning And um this that was actually interesting to go back to, we were talking about ah yeah the green and the purple in the dress, and I had mentioned morning attire earlier.
01:04:16
Speaker
In one of the later stages of mourning for the Victorians, color is very slowly reintroduced with gray and some shades of purple. So I wonder, and maybe like to think, that that's where the purple in the men's costume comes in. Someone actually knew, oh, you know as they're reintroducing color, these are some of the colors that they went with. um And they really seem to dig into the whole mourning thing conceptually, even though in practice there really isn't a lot of dress that specifically represents it. So I find that really interesting. um Yeah. Yeah, it's not something I would have thought of immediately, but I think it's so great that that's what the cast members have in their head because I always am curious what performance are they trying to run in their head. And that idea of,
01:05:13
Speaker
loss and grief is a big part of Victorian culture. I think because of the way Victoria grieved Albert and then it was a time where you had sort of public display. You could go out and you could be public, but you could shroud a house in mourning. You could, you hang certain colors, you close certain things down. And so you can have very public displays of grief and the fact that these cast members have that same sort of idea as you go through the line. Yeah. At the same time that you're in the pipe organ part and kids but and me are just hitting the library books to make them make spooky sounds. Yeah. So, you know, cause there's stuff to play around with in the queue in Magic Kingdom.
01:06:07
Speaker
And then you have a very somber like, step this way and then push forward. No, really push forward. There's lots of room, right? So they're doing their job as Disney cast members. And then they're also trying to intone their performance as members of the household.
01:06:29
Speaker
I think this is also it's a good place to kind of talk about like that role of the cast member as a performer on the stage of the ride. you know How much of their performance and demeanor is connected and influenced by the costume itself. How much does wearing you know the high collar and you know the lace and you know the bow tie, how much does that kind of really put you into that head space of you know maybe the more rigid posture. But you're also in mourning, so maybe you're a little slumped. and I find that very interesting. um And you know how much of their styling, the maids and the butlers specifically, is really integral to the storytelling on the ride. you know How much does their presence influence you know the way you as a guest are going to perceive things and the the feeling you're going to have starting out? um And does does having these costumed characters assist in that overall experience? like i For example, I find the presence of, quote, you know servants, it automatically makes me assume that
01:07:29
Speaker
There is this kind of extent like wealth and stateliness embodied or kind of entombed within the mansion itself and certain sense of, you know, business and organization and things are still being run like because there's so much activity that's necessary to have all of this, you know, help. um I find that really, really interesting in the parks that that exists.
01:07:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think I always think the same thing that I know I'm entering a space of wealth and that association of of wealth in the particular time period, right? That it feels slightly excessive, that there's an excess of wealth because look at all the cast members. right There's not more cast members there than in any other ride. There's a ton of cast members at every ride, but something about these cast members belong in and around this space, and they belong to the house, and you're a guest in the house is a big part of how I feel when I'm around them. And I do think
01:08:40
Speaker
there's very good posture involved in the Haunted Mansion experience. I agree. And I think that that idea of belonging to the house, that they are tied to it in a manner, supernaturally or other, um and that their demeanor and you know their attitude and the way that they speak, it really helps. It puts me in that headspace of, OK, if these are the humans I'm going to encounter while I'm here,
01:09:10
Speaker
yeah I should expect ah you know more of the unexpected. Yeah. In kind of another you know branch on that mansion tree, I want to talk really quickly ah about, because I just saw these these images the other day, I'd forgotten about them and then remembered, and there are haunted mansion themed bar restaurants on two Disney cruise line ships, and there are cast members who work them. and I'm very curious about what that's like.
01:09:40
Speaker
so there's Here's a quote from Walt Disney World News today. Quote, the Haunted Mansion parlor costumes include a green pin cord vest layered over a striped purple shirt. These are paired with either a solid green skirt or pants. They take inspiration from the costumes worn by Haunted Mansion cast members in Disney parks, as well as from the Haunted Mansion's famous purple wallpaper. The Easter egg riddled accessories include a mysterious set of keys.
01:10:11
Speaker
It's really, really interesting. um ah these are The images of these are in the ones that I sent you, but I didn't actually sent you. ah So I will forward those along. But it's interesting how similar the outfits are in overall silhouette and design for the male and female characters. There's no apron or hairpiece for the women. So they are very different looking than the maids. Someone who is working the bar at a haunted mansion bar is obviously not a maid, but it's, you know,
01:10:39
Speaker
It's interesting. There's no there's no lace and it really makes me wonder how committed to the made aesthetic they are. um So I'm curious about the interaction with mansion cast members in the context of food service. um Yeah. No, it changes from, you know, ushering guests in and out of the mansion at the park to I'm serving you a drink over a bar on a cruise ship, like trying to wrap my head around what a mansion experience on a floating vessel completely away from the mansion itself, even though it's it's called the mansion parlor. So you're we this little part of the mansion up and we plopped it here. I just, I have a lot of thoughts and a lot of questions and it just, it feels interesting, interesting and weird and like, I kind of don't get it. I don't know. I think what's so interesting about that is that the cruise designers know how
01:11:34
Speaker
The people on the cruise probably have been to or love the parks. So what are some of the really popular parts of the parks? And I think Haunted Mansion is certainly that, particularly during certain types of year, but year round, people love the Haunted Mansion.
Haunted Mansion Themed Experiences on Cruises
01:11:51
Speaker
And so to have a little hint of Haunted Mansion on the the Disney cruise, I know the treasure, right? Just opening has this. Yeah, there's another one. I think there's two. It's the treasure. and Maybe I wish, because the wish is one of the newer ones. But I think there's something. So adults really want to have that experience. And again, it looks from the styling. It looks like a lush gentleman's club from the 1880s, 1890s.
01:12:21
Speaker
There are fireplaces, there are places where you think people would be smoking and billiards, and and it is a very close, dark Victorian room, heavy curtains, heavy wallpaper. We do take the nautical elements from the mansion as well. like I think on at least one of them, they pull like the mariner and they kind of develop around him a little bit.
01:12:47
Speaker
That's cool. And I wonder if the service workers there transform a little bit from your in-house servants to like a gentleman's club where there would be a level of familiarity, but still a very rigid hierarchy, but just that idea of rolling up your sleeves behind a bar, taking off your jacket. Right. And um being allowed to be in your vest in a slightly more intimate setting. Because from the look of the some of the artist renderings, it looks dark and close and um you know like a smoky room with no smoke in it. Right.
01:13:39
Speaker
in I'm very curious. you know i've I've not done a Disney cruise, but you know I would be one of those people who I'd be very happy to go to you know the mansion parlor and have a drink and also like see what they're wearing and you know look at all of the the brass fixtures and things like that. i'm I'm one of those people. yeah and i' I mentioned this at the beginning. you know Everybody loves the mansion and like the styling of the maids and the butlers. It's such this pervasive look.
01:14:07
Speaker
I love that mansion maids and butlers are these arbiters of style for Disney bounding. um So I want to talk like just real quick about kind of like this special niche obsession that have that people have in those cast member costumes for Disney bounds in a way that I don't see other cast member costumes being loved. Like, you know, you see people who are like, Oh, I'm, you know, one of the people mover, you know, things, and you know, these, again, really niche things, but people love the mansion and the Disney bounds that I see and, you know, dapper day versions of mansion maids. And just
01:14:44
Speaker
the like third-party merch, like, you know, styled t-shirts and all that. Like, I remember there was a while you could buy in the parks. Like, it was a t-shirt that had, you know, like the tuxedo prints? It was like the mansion. the mansion yeah yeah I just, um I wonder, you know, why do people love these these particular costumes so much? Like, you know, what it what is it that separates this from from other costumes?
01:15:11
Speaker
That's such a good question because it's really true that you can find hardcore bounders who will do a lot of cast member outfits. But I can't think of, with the exception of maybe Tower of Terror, which is a weird, similar element, that people are actively dressing up or or you can go to Hot Topic and you can buy versions, um sort of short skirt versions of the maids outfits and the t-shirts you're talking about and a lot of people bound um and do bounding around the
01:15:55
Speaker
Haunted Mansion cast members in a way you don't see in all sorts of other areas of the parks. And I don't know exactly what it is except maybe the cast member behavior combined with the look.
01:16:14
Speaker
combined with the popularity of the ride all speaks to something a little bit more unique and special to some of the other places in the parks. Because in Fantasyland, there are tons of rides, but everyone tends to wear the Fantasyland cast member outfit. um Same in Frontierland though I haven't been to Tiana yet so I don't know if those have been tweaked I think they have in terms of cast member outfits being a little more specific as opposed to the general like khaki and blue yes have you have you seen any of the um like the photos they've released some of the images like yeah um
01:16:56
Speaker
Bayou Adventure and like Nana's Palace and stuff. There are many that are now associated with her ride. Yeah, so I'm really excited to see that because I'll be going in December and I'm really interested to see the whole area. But I think something with Haunted Mansion is
01:17:17
Speaker
for the type of people who are sort of cult followers of Disney, meaning like they like alt subcultures, they like bounding, they like doing things that are more niche. Haunted Mansion just feels cult, classic and niche. And so it maybe it lends itself more naturally into that bounding, um quirky,
01:17:47
Speaker
um paying homage to something in the perks that is identifiable if you know it. And then if you don't know it, you'd have no idea what the person is wearing. um So maybe it's just that it's a little a little bit c calledult classic or in a little bit niche. But I agree with you. It is by and large the bounding that I see if unless I'm seeing character bounding, if I'm seeing cast member bounding,
01:18:14
Speaker
I've never seen a you know ah skipper. I know people probably do Jungle Cruise bounding. I just haven't seen it. But I've seen um Haunted Mansion t-shirts, Haunted Mansion ears, Haunted Mansion ears bought on Etsy, and then yeah some really dynamic bounding. Yeah, people love the mansion. And I absolutely see why. it
01:18:38
Speaker
it's It's amazing to see you know in people's dress and in their kind of general enthusiasm for the ride and how many times they go, you know even in a single visit, um how and important.
01:18:52
Speaker
it really is as a fixture to the parks and you know how they've how they've managed to kind of build on the story and then really embrace like Nightmare Before Christmas um within that. it It's great. it's I just love it. um but before we yeah Sorry, I was just gonna say, I also see boundaries as the um the sliding pictures.
01:19:17
Speaker
Yes. Yes. A really interesting Halloween slash bound around some of the bits and pieces you see inside the mansion too. Yes, I've seen I've seen like hatbox ghosts. Yeah, which is that's hard unless you're like doing the hat also because it's kind of just dark like it's that dark blue and like black. It's like what are you? Oh, well, I see. Yeah, the hat bus. I've seen the the parasol girls quite a bit.
01:19:46
Speaker
I've seen her and I've seen the guy who's who's standing on the dynamite with the little red and white striped shorts. I've seen him. Um, and those, those are really fun. It, the mansion is just, it is so pervasive and people just love it. And you know what? So do I. Um, so as, as we kind of wrap it up, I just want to point y'all in the direction of some really fun resources on the mansion as well as Victorian period fashions.
01:20:10
Speaker
So for the mansion itself, um check out the book, The Haunted Mansion, Imagineering a Disney Classic, and then the segments on the ride in the Imagineering story and behind the attraction documentaries on Disney+. plus You know, I find documentary material on the parks infinitely illuminating. And even though a lot of the same information is kind of recycled amongst Disney's publishing,
01:20:34
Speaker
The contemporary landscape of the development of rides and the experiences for me, it's really helpful to observe and then kind of use as a basis for further research because, you know, you're getting, you know, some thoroughly sanitized, heavily filtered version from the Disney company, you know, in all of these things, but.
01:20:53
Speaker
um I know there is another book called The Unauthorized Story of Walt Disney's Haunted Mansion, which I wasn't able to get a copy of in time for this, but I'd really like to see if there's anything in there that's kind of new info or focuses on the cast members a little bit more. Have you read that book? Have you seen that one? I haven't. I feel like the the cover kind of looks like like the stretching room a little bit. Oh, yeah, I'll have to check it out.
01:21:17
Speaker
Yeah, I'm going to I need to see if I can find I couldn't get it from the library and there was no way I was going to get it in time to read it for this. um But for Victorian fashions, you know, I would recommend checking out the podcast, um dressed the history of fashion, which is run by two fashion historians. It's an incredible resource for global fashion history and just a really fun listen.
01:21:38
Speaker
ah Check out their episodes on Victorian and Gilded Age fashions. There are several. ah Particularly, there's an episode called Servant Mode, Dressing the Domestic Servant, which has a lot of ah useful info about the division of labor between household servants and their dress. um Obviously, there's also a ton of books that examine the role of domestic servants in the context of daily life. like um Inside the Victorian Home by Judith Flanders, Fashion and Its Social Agendas by Diane Crane is another really good one. um There's many books about Victorian era fashion, and I like these ah the Dover editions, ah like Victorian and Edwardian fashion, a photographic survey, and Victorian fashions and costumes from Harper's Bazaar, because they include fashion plates and photographs of the period, and you get to see a lot of really interesting details like
01:22:31
Speaker
you know, patterns in fabric, um textured fabrics, you get to see the mixing of prints and accessories. ah So it really gives you a little bit more of a dynamic view of Victorian fashion than just, you know, an image that you might have. 19th century fashion in detail put out by the Victorian Albert Museum. They have a ton of good, um heavily photographed um ah books that are great. And you'll find so much research regarding the lives of Victorians and the social anxieties they faced and their fashions always come up in some sort of representative way. Vicky, are there any resources you might recommend to people that are perhaps adjacent to maybe some of these topics from a theater or performance point of view?
01:23:22
Speaker
Yeah, well, I was going to bring up the V&A. Their online archive is excellent, and particularly around this time period. And that extends to theaters. They have a ton of archives, ah photos, and just a bunch of ephemera. So a lot of photography, but also programs from like Drury Lane, um the Guy Little Theater Collection, which is massive and it's a bunch of excellent photos. And another thing that I love about the V&A
01:23:57
Speaker
is they have a collection, a wide collection from a number of different designers of costume renderings. And they have this from a bunch of different time periods, but um the actual recorded costume renderings as archive became much more ah possible to keep track of during the 19th century. And so I think it's a great resource. Some other great museums also have this, like the City Museum of New York or Cooper Hewitt. They they have some of these. But the V&A is the best for British theater, which and that includes burlesque, it includes pantomime, it includes musical. So it looks at theater and performance really broadly.
Resources on Victorian Theater and Fashion
01:24:45
Speaker
And then if you're thinking about this particular time period, there's a great
01:24:51
Speaker
Cambridge Collection called Victorian and Edwardian Theater. It just gives you the rundown of what's happening, who we need to keep track of, some really famous performers, and also design was becoming so much more important um because we had electric lights, and so lighting design becomes important.
01:25:12
Speaker
scenic design was changing, but anytime you can have more light, costume design is fundamentally affected by it. And so um something like that really helps give context for the type of material and images you would find in an archive like the V&A. That's awesome.
01:25:33
Speaker
um Where would listeners be able to find your writing if they want to learn more about maybe your research you know with theater and also Disney? ah So looking around some journals like the Journal of Popular Culture, the Journal of American Culture,
01:25:52
Speaker
If they want to explore more Disney-related research, I'm on the editorial board for the International Journal of Disney Studies, and we're goingnna there's going to be a first ah volume coming out ah early spring of next year, and and the hope there is to really generate a lot of really strong scholarship in and around Disney stuff.
01:26:18
Speaker
And then I'm really excited about this Palgrave book that's coming out because we have a collection of female scholars from different parts of the world looking at the intersections of animals and Victorian fashion and what that looks like. And so if you want to know what was happening to beetle wings and hummingbirds, it'll be a great- I'm so excited to read that.
01:26:47
Speaker
It'll be ah an awesome collection to check out. And a lot of theater because performance became a space. um There's a really famous, beautiful dress that Ellen Terry wore. I was going to ask you about that. yeah Yeah. So we have a whole chapter looking at um the lady mac this very famous Lady Macbeth dress. And from a distance, it just looks glittery and green. And you zoom in and you zoom in. And it's all the green is.
01:27:16
Speaker
Beetle elytra, which is the hard shell wing of a beetle because they don't lose their color when they die And for for those of you who know, you know the portrait the elementary portrait you will recognize this dress um as one of the inspirations for Merida's mom in brave for her styling ah it's I'm not gonna go so far as say it's the same dress but you it's the same dress and the same manner styling and all of that and Yeah, John Singer Sargent's painting of Ellen Terry as Lady Macbeth and Ellen Terry was the um stage star at the end of the 19th century and
01:27:59
Speaker
that her role in that dress was super iconic. And women were putting Beadleleiter on dresses but ah much earlier in the 19th century. And this was a real, I don't know, height heightened moment of that type of fashion. That's so cool. I love it. um I would love to have you back on a future episode to talk about Frontierland and colonialism And that coonskin cap that people just could not get enough of because that is, to me, that's just infinitely hilarious. And it's so loaded and like, just, ah it's that's wild to think about. um So yeah i will have sometimes i would hope that I would love that. I think about it all the time. It's so weird. The things that like, you know, in your research, you just get really stuck on and you're just like, Oh my gosh, like this is
01:28:52
Speaker
yeah I can't leave this alone. And then the more you learn about it and then that kind of historical context and the social context behind it, it's a lot. So yes, we will have to have you come back and we will do a whole thing on the colonialism in Disneyland and and the parks. That would be awesome. But yeah, thank you so much for joining me ah for this. um Thank you folks for listening and be sure to follow Disney undressed on Instagram and threads where I'll be posting some fun visual references for the episodes as well as info for the next episode. So keep an eye out for that. I hope you guys will join me again as I undress your favorite Disney films.