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“Street Savoir Faire”: Oliver & Company with Hannah Palsa
73 Plays1 year ago
Why should you worry? Why should you caaaaaare?” Find out with Marley and her guest Hannah Palsa while they chat about 80s fashion and dogs wearing makeup in Disney’s Oliver & Company! They’ll discuss the history of fashioning man’s best friend from collars to licenses, as well as the human styles that adorn them in this film.
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Transcript
Introduction to Disney Undressed
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello there and welcome to Disney Undressed, a show where we explore the magic of costuming in Disney films, parks, and everything in between. I'm your host, Marley, a fashion scholar, curator, and enthusiast of almost all things Disney, particularly when it comes to fashion.
Fashion's Role in Disney Films
00:00:26
Speaker
Disney films aren't always set in a fantastical imagined past, and they don't always have humans as the focus of the stories.
00:00:33
Speaker
However, Disney artists draw inspiration from the real world around them whilst they're constructing characters that are going to make sense for the time and place in which they appear. Something that I often explore in my own research a lot is the importance of fashion in the costuming of animated characters. I find the development of animated characters particularly interesting and how those characters' clothes are designed in tandem with the whole process.
Character Development and Design
00:01:01
Speaker
Besides the visual concept, there is an emphasis on the personality of a character. So Bill Peat, who was a story writer and artist for Disney until the 1960s, he had said, quote, for animation, you need strong, definite personalities so that you can have broad and explicit action. And there will be no doubts about what your character is thinking.
00:01:22
Speaker
In animation, we're not trying to duplicate live action or create realism. We're trying to make it larger than life." So human characters are obviously a certain set of rules since you know they'll be clothed and speaking and interacting with each other and their environments, and the artists create them from the personal experience of being human themselves. So how then does this change, if at all, when designing and animating non-human characters?
00:01:47
Speaker
and what about man's best friend, the dog specifically.
Guest Introduction: Hannah Pulsa
00:01:52
Speaker
So joining me today with a very fun perspective and appropriate expertise is Hannah Pulsa to talk about Disney's Oliver & Company. Hannah is a PhD candidate in history at Kansas State University in Manhattan, Kansas. Her dissertation is focused on Dogs for Defense, an organization that formed during World War II which convinced civilian pet owners to donate their dogs to military service through elaborate propaganda campaigns. In terms of Disney, she's always had a love of the Disney animated films featuring animals. Her favorite Disney film is Oliver and Company. Thanks for joining me, Hannah. I would really love for you just to start out to share a little bit about your research with us.
00:02:36
Speaker
I started this research on dogs for defense st during my master's program. I originally entered my master's program wanting to focus on the Civil War as I had done it, researched it all in undergrad. But I had kind of a shift that happened during the winter of 2016 when I had to put my heart dog to sleep after having lymphoma. And so I realized that I had always kind of wanted to do That's my cat trying to get into my closet. oh charlie Anyway, I realized I'd always wanted to kind of look at animals. Animals had always been my passion growing up. I originally thought I wanted to be a vet tech until I realized I really wasn't that good at science. And so I switched to history during undergrad. But um after losing my dog, it made me realize that animals always were my passion and the one thing that I really kind of wanted to devote myself to historically.
Dogs for Defense in WWII
00:03:33
Speaker
And so I remember talking with my advisor and saying, you know, at the time I really loved dogs. And she was like, you know, come back in a week after you've kind of looked around to see what you could find in terms of dogs in history. And so after kind of doing some Google searches, I stumbled upon this organization called Dogs for Defense. It formed in January 1942 after the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
00:03:57
Speaker
And it was formed by a lot of different, what we would turn call the term is dog fanciers. So it was um American Kennel Club breeders, showmen, kennel hands, field trial judges, really anyone in the dog world had a part in dogs for defense. And the idea was to convince civilian pet owners to donate their own animals to the war effort. The organization partnered with the quartermaster department and helped and together the two enlisted dogs for military service.
00:04:33
Speaker
And so they used a lot of different propaganda campaigns to convince pet owners to donate their dogs. They made cartoons like children's cartoons for dogs or defense. They posted elaborate stories in the newspaper and media about the organization. There were Hollywood films created for dogs for defense. And there was a lot of different artwork in terms of recruitment posters and things that were created through different artists to support and showcase the organization.
00:05:01
Speaker
And so Dogs for Defense really appealed on the idea of people's patriotism during wartime, but also had that subtle propaganda campaign that continuously kind of said, you know, you had to do your part in this war. Donating your new dog is a way to do so. The good thing for me is that um about 40,000 dogs were donated by their owners and about 10,000 were actually picked to serve. And almost all the dogs came home.
00:05:31
Speaker
Wow. That's the happy thing. Like whenever I tell people about my research, they always want to know about, you know, did the dogs come home or not? And I'm always able to tell them like, you know, for the most part, most of them did come home.
Fashion in Animated Films
00:05:44
Speaker
Oliver & Company, while it's not a movie about World War II, and it's definitely not a movie about fashion. But there are some very special characters who use articles of dress in fashionable ways as part of their character design and development. So since I have the wonderful expertise of Hannah today, we are going to be focusing on the fashioning of our furry friends.
00:06:05
Speaker
But I'm also not going to ignore all of the delightful 1980s visual references that caught my eye in this film. And there are a lot. There are many. And they're fun. ah So this is not the first time and it certainly won't be the last time that animals appear in clothing or accessories in Disney films.
00:06:23
Speaker
um talking about the work that their fellow animator, Mark Davis, had did on the film Bambi, for instance. ah Frank Thomas and Ollie Johnson have said, quote, his deer looked like deer, for they had lost none of their essential animal appearance or character, but they could be understood as having human thoughts and feelings, end quote. So Bambi is obviously a very different type of story than Oliver. And the forest animals aren't pets, and they live in a completely different environment, et cetera, but the idea here is that animals need to still look like animals while still conveying human emotion and attitudes, hence the anthropomorphizing of animals to imbue that personality. And one of the the best ways to kind of do this on top of you know the voice acting is the addition of dress objects. So the added adornment of things like a bandana or the styling of fur to be a little bit more hair-like
00:07:18
Speaker
kind of supports that intention in a more visual way, although it isn't terribly realistic. But I mean, you know, that's not actually the case anymore because I frequently see some very dressed up dogs like out in the world nowadays. So maybe it's not too much of a stretch. But Hannah, I think your research and your thoughts on this is going to, it's going to be really illuminating and help to kind of contextualize these pets. But before we really dive into it, I want to first start out with kind of a fun question.
00:07:45
Speaker
What is your favorite Disney fashion moment? That could be a favorite outfit or like a makeover transformation that happens or if somebody has an accessory that you really love, anything like that. I think in terms of like to dress, I'm still super partial to the pink the make it pink, make it blue debate when it comes to Sleeping Beauty and Aurora's gown.
00:08:12
Speaker
with the fairies at the end of the movie when they're trying to debate about how her gown should look and they're kind of like zapping her with the wands and things to have it change while she dances with the prince. I've always said that i've always thought that was really fun. Are you team pink or team blue for Aurora's dress? I think I'm team pink.
00:08:31
Speaker
Ooh, my daughter's team pink. I think I'm team blue. and I might be in the minority. Might have to do a poll on that later, which is the winning color for Aurora. Oh, I think that would be fun. That would be a fun one. All right, so let's get into it. Oliver and Company is a 1988 animated film produced by Walt Disney Feature Animation, directed by George Scribner. Can I just point out real quick, the movie description from IMDB says,
00:08:59
Speaker
Quote, a lost and alone kitten joins a gang of dogs engaged in petty larceny in New York City. i mean enough yeah That's That's sums it up. ah So that's a very kind of sanitized ah overview, but generally accurate um to give a little bit more info. So in this animated update of Charles Dickens, Oliver Twist, Oliver, voiced by Joey Lawrence,
00:09:26
Speaker
ah is an orphaned kitten taken in by a gang of thieving dogs led by Cavalier Canine Dodger voiced by Billy Joel and owned by down and out human pickpocket Fagan. So Oliver finds himself adopted by a rich girl named Jenny and landing himself on Easy Street, but through a series of events, a lone shark threatens Fagan and his gang. We had sort of talked about this a little bit, but prior to a couple weeks ago when I watched this movie for the first time as an adult,
00:09:56
Speaker
The only thing I would have been able to tell you about this whole movie is Billy Joel. That that was like the only thing that I remembered about this. I had forgotten everything about the movie and I have to say there were more than a few times that I kind of raised my eyebrows about what was happening in this film. So Hannah, what is your history with this movie?
00:10:22
Speaker
So I think like you, I probably saw this when it came out on VHS in the 90s. And so for some reason, um I've always kind of like bounced around with what my favorite Disney film has been over the years. Because you know, as you grow up, your taste of always your changes, change involved.
00:10:40
Speaker
But um Oliver & Company has always been one that stuck with me. And I don't know if it just because I've always kind of liked the story of Oliver Twist in general and the different adaptations that have kind of come.
00:10:52
Speaker
um My mom can tell you about how the Disney version with Elijah Wood, the live action one, about how I constantly rented that from Blockbuster when I was younger and just rewatched it all over and over because I liked it so much.
Voice Acting in Disney
00:11:06
Speaker
And I think Oliver & Company is just kind of fun because it's one where you begin to see this kind of, I think, shift toward moving away from, I think, professional voice actors in Disney films to hiring more big name
00:11:23
Speaker
in well-known people like Billy Joel, like Bette Midler. And it's like, it's moving away from kind of like the legends like Phil Harris and other ones who had maybe gotten start in like radio or Vivaldi and things, but were more natural voice actors versus, you know, look, it's Billy Joel who's known for all these wonderful songs and albums. Oh, he's voicing a singing dog. That's great.
00:11:48
Speaker
yeah I definitely remember, I can't remember which, it so one of the VHSs that I had as a kid had one of those like preview for Oliver and Company. And like the big thing that they were harping on was it's Billy Joel. So that was like a ah super big deal. And I think it's interesting little, um just kind of reading about how the different ideas for this movie was it originally was suggested. It was like, well, what if you do Oliver and Company with dogs? And everyone was like, okay,
00:12:18
Speaker
And then Roy Disney suggested, well, what if instead of holding Oliver for ransom, Fagan steals a panda bear and holds a panda bear for ransom to get the money back to pay Sykes. And and and that was thankfully dropped because that sounded ludicrous at the time. Yeah. yeah I mean, it sounds ludicrous now. And then the opening to the film was actually a lot darker than it is.
00:12:44
Speaker
which the song in the beginning was done by, the lyrics were done by Howard Ashman and then sung by Huey Lewis. But in the original opening they wanted to do was that Oliver's parents were actually gonna be killed by two dogs. And then they decided that was a little bit too dark to put in a Disney film.
Plot and Setting of Oliver & Company
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know that that's something I would have wanted to see. No, and I mean, the ending can is still a little bit, set the beginning is still a little bit sad. Oh yeah, and we'll get into that.
00:13:13
Speaker
Yeah, well, no better time like the present then. So this movie, it opens up with this sort of visual love letter to New York City. And you've got Lewis, you get lots of these like aerial shots of Central Park and these sweeping panoramic views of recognizable landmarks um like and the Twin Towers, Times Square. And then we begin on this huge downer with some abandoned kittens in a cardboard box on the city streets. And one one kitten, Oliver, ends up being the last one to remain.
00:13:45
Speaker
hoping that someone's going to pick him up, but nobody does. And then we go on this journey with him through the hustling and bustling streets of New York. And actually during this scene, kind of, uh, there's a really big style drop right off the bat where Oliver is hiding in what appears to be like a Sperry topsider boat shoe and this old Yankees baseball cap. Uh, which I mean, of course, of course there's a, you know,
00:14:10
Speaker
baseball cap on the the ground in New York City. um But like the fact that there's like a little spairy boat shoe, like these are hella popular in the 80s. It's really emblematic of preppy style. and Like I think the official preppy handbook comes out in the 80s, too. So that's kind of fun to see. In this movie,
00:14:29
Speaker
It's not really about them per se, but there are a handful of human characters who we'll talk about. But I really wanted to start with kind of the first fashions that we get in the film. And that's all the random background people we see during this intro time. So you get this nice kind of barrage of men and women and kids milling around. Some people look like they're probably on their way to work. Others are probably tourists.
00:14:51
Speaker
And there's some really good closeups of shoes, which is really fun. um They're not like insanely detailed or anything, but there's lots of like women's pumps and tons of sneakers. You see lots of sneakers in this movie, which is really cool. So sneaker culture, it starts to really take off like in the 80s and 90s in the US around this huge boom in popularity of hip hop and basketball. And many of the sneakers that I noticed in this movie were high tops, which are all over the place.
00:15:19
Speaker
um Air Jordans, Adidas, Converse, Reebok, and Nike, they just to start out with some of the big names, these are all kind of alluded to in these really quick glimpses of the people walking around. There's one set of sneakers. I think I had sent some um some images ah for you to take a look at, but there's one set of sneakers in particular that get called out in this intro scene.
00:15:43
Speaker
They're red with yellow accents and like this turquoise blue sole on the bottom. It kind of looks like maybe they could be Converse just because of the round emblem on the side as opposed to like the Adidas stripes or something. But the guy rocking these sneakers, he's also wearing to be what ah appears to be a pair of like maybe track pants or joggers with the stripe down the side. And he's got the boombox and he's like wandering around dancing, ah which is kind of fun. And there's this reference to the street style hip hop that That's kind of great. There's also one really hilarious um close up of a woman driving a car during the Billy Joel ah number where Dodger jumps on her car and almost causes her to crash. ah She's got a great look, to be honest.
00:16:28
Speaker
um She has these enormous glasses, which I just love and some really fun earrings kind of reminded me a little bit of like um Like Joan Cusack in working girl a little bit maybe something like that She's got this blunt bob with bangs and some shoulder pads looking very like corporate office, babe um People have also said it almost seems like a callback to like Anita from 101 Dalmatians? Yeah, she does kind of have that look. You know who she also kind of looks like? Oh my gosh, Annie Potts from Ghostbusters. Yes. I definitely get Annie Potts vibes from her.
00:17:06
Speaker
um But yeah, in that same shot, ah in the intro scene, and then when Dodger is singing, you really get to see some fun, full ensembles of the humans in the background. So I saw some women wearing like these kind of long, full skirts with the oversized blazer.
00:17:21
Speaker
ah lots of trench coats and generally just some kind of innocuous 80s styles. um So it's not like, ah like the crazy sweat bands like the major wild side ponies or anything like that. This is actually looks like what real people would have been wearing around that time on their way to work and something like meet the Goldbergs or something that's like exaggerated.
00:17:45
Speaker
80s fashion. Yeah, this looks like a pretty truthful representation of just regular old people on the street doing what they do. So I guess we'll talk about a bit about the individual characters. And let's start with dogs first. So I am woefully ignorant of the various dog breeds. But maybe you can help me out with this.
Character Design Inspirations
00:18:06
Speaker
All of these anthropomorphized dogs, they just kill me, especially the female ones.
00:18:11
Speaker
There are a lot of stereotypes and some really problematic representations that happen throughout this film. um But we'll get into it. Okay, so we've met Oliver. Eventually, Oliver hooks up with Dodger, our streetwise terrier. Yeah, they think that he's based on like a Jack Russell terrier mix. So we're gonna go with the terrier mix. Okay. Streetwise terrier, who helps him steal a bunch of sausages from a hot dog street vendor. This Side note, this is neither here nor there, but I need to point out that the guy who voices this sausage dude is Frank Welker, who was also the voice of Fred in Scooby-Doo. Where are you? Yes. And another side note, while dogs are singing the song, if you look at the dogs that come up, you see callbacks to 101 Dalmatians, you see Pongo, and then you see Jacques and Trusty from Lady and the Tramp. And there's also dogs in the window and you see Peg.
00:19:12
Speaker
And so you see them doing callbacks to the earlier animated dog films with this, which I think is really kind of cool. I think that's cute. I like that. I think that's fun. So Dodger is voiced by Billy Joel, who appears on screen and promptly harasses a female dog who looks suspiciously like Lady from Lady and the Tramp.
00:19:33
Speaker
he is wearing a red bandana tied around his neck and eventually he grabs a pair of sunglasses. I definitely get notes of Billy Joel in the styling here with the sunglasses, but also Bruce Springsteen um with the with like the red bandana and like born in the USA look. and Yeah, like a working class kind of like street. Yeah, and it's that part of that kind of mid-Atlantic, you know, thing.
00:20:00
Speaker
So after the two steal the hot dogs, Dodger skips out on Oliver. They get the whole why should I worry number, which I think is super fun. I think this is a great song. It really is. And I'm still kind of bummed that Billy Joel's never done it live in concerts. Because I think it would just be such a fun thing for like, if parents were taking their kids and stuff and the kids knew like,
00:20:28
Speaker
that was the one song that they knew and he could play it. I think that would be kind of cool if he would do it. I mean, it's kind of a banger. I really like that song. I think it's a good one. um And this whole scene, like this, the song is great. And like what is going on is nuts because he's just like jumping around on top of cars and like the cement mixer thing too, right? Yeah.
00:20:50
Speaker
um Like, can dogs even do this? Like, would that kind of balance? I mean, ah yes, this is an animated film. I understand dogs don't really do this. But like, is it in a dog's ability to be able to do some of these things? I don't know, especially the cement mixer, I feel like would have to be a really well coordinated dog. Yeah, I almost thought like a cat could do more of these things. thanks um Oh, and then there's the part they've got Billy Joel dog flying a piano, playing a flying piano over a busy street. And I was, I was delighted. Like this is wild. um And there are just there are so many doggos. Like they're all cutting loose from their humans. They're making this parade down the street. They stop traffic. Dogs are every place.
00:21:38
Speaker
And then even the little like rats. Oh my God, the rats. I have a note here about the rats. Yes, the rats sing with them. This is crazy.
Fagan's Gang of Dogs
00:21:47
Speaker
Okay, so he passes. Yeah, so I've got my notes here. Gang of rats wearing sunglasses and smoking cigars around a trashcan fire in the alleyway. This made me lull. um the Also, the amount of smoking that happens in this film is nuts. He passes the rats around the trashcan. Dodger thinks he's lost Oliver. and And he makes his way down to the docks, where we meet the rest of the gang, which includes Francis, Einstein, Rita, and Tito, various breeds of dogs who live with and attempt to help their human Fagin. So Francis and Einstein, they don't have any special adornment. None of, this is important to note, none of these dogs are wearing collars.
00:22:29
Speaker
Um, but a couple of the dogs, the three, uh, Dodger, Rita, and Tito, they all have some form of dormant. So we're going to talk about, we'll talk about them first. Rita is probably one of my favorites. Um, she's voiced by Cheryl Lee Ralph and her singing is actually performed by Ruth Pointer. So she's a Saluki breed. ah Yeah. But a rather unusual one wearing blue eyeshadow.
00:22:56
Speaker
um I tell you the second I saw that I screamed. The the big hair on top with like the long teased sides like that's the styling that they have on this dog is actually a really like popular style in the 1980s with like the top and like the teased out sides. So I get the styling. And when you look at a picture of an actual Saluki dog,
00:23:20
Speaker
Like, okay, sure. Yeah. Like i I can see the connection there, but like, if you saw a real dog with this hairdo, like, could you even imagine? Like that would be nuts. Um, I definitely see a little bit of Ruth pointer, like that cut some of that styling. And also I was getting some like Pat Benatar shadows of the night vibes from the hairdo and the eyeshadow. Cause the eyeshadow was like, it's in your face. It's right there. The eyeshadow screens kind of like,
00:23:50
Speaker
Pat Benatar, like, yes, but also almost kind of like workout culture. Yeah. Mm hmm. Sure. Like she almost needs to be wearing a headband like with her. Yeah. Like the way that the fur is kind of styled. Like i I definitely see that there should be a headband right in there. And instead you get like the Chihuahua wearing you get Tito wearing the little headband. And yeah so Yeah. So Tito is voiced by Cheech Marin. He wears a little bandana and he's got a patch of fur that sort of hangs over it like hair. So a lot of the dog fur in this, it's treated like human hair. It's given that treatment. ah Tito, this is kind of funny. He's actually sort of styled a little bit like Tommy Chong, which is kind of cute.
00:24:30
Speaker
um So Cheech and Chong, they were really popular in the 80s and Cheech Marin, he has such a distinctive voice. um So it makes sense that you know like what we were talking about earlier, we're getting you know more celebrity insertions into voice acting as opposed to voice actors specifically. Tito, he gets an outfit change later in the movie that I actually think is super hilarious.
00:24:58
Speaker
um I find it adorable for some reason.
Georgette: The Fashionable Show Dog
00:25:02
Speaker
It's kind of cute. Yeah. It's really over the top, but it's kind of cute. um So Georgette, she decides she doesn't like him and then kind of starts to sort of groom him into this waspy, like yacht ready. She's like, I can fix him. Yeah.
00:25:20
Speaker
He's got like a little captain's hat and a blazer with a little ascot around his neck. You know who he looked like when I saw this? He reminded me of Danny Noonan in Caddyshack. Yes. Like when he goes to the yacht club and he's trying to like, he ends up looking like Judge Smales. Um, I was like, Oh my God, look, it's like a little Danny Noonan. Um, but yeah, he gets this full ensemble later. Like the captain and Tennille kind of thing. Yes.
00:25:46
Speaker
Yeah, so again and it's funny because they do they drop that little spairy topsider that I was talking about earlier. And then there's like another sort of visual reference to that preppy like waspy style. um And we talked a little bit about Dodger. He's got the red bandana and he picks up the sunglasses. But Dodger and Tito, they're the only dogs from Fagan's gang that are wearing clothing, accessories and things like that.
00:26:14
Speaker
Do you think that Fagan dresses them or are they dressing themselves? I almost wonder if it's kind of both. If at least for Dodger, like to me, the bandana for Dodger is always kind of symbolized ownership, like a collar. Well, yeah, because someone has to tie it on him. Yeah, some like Fagan's ties it on him like in the morning or something or maybe just big enough that he can like slip his head through and stuff. But I think it's kind of like that.
00:26:44
Speaker
ownership kind of quality in terms of the bandana. But for Tito, I almost wonder if it's something that like he found when they were doing like a run or something to try to find things to give to Fagan and he just liked it so much that he kept it. and Yeah. like Yeah. Did it get stuck on his head when he was like rummaging around in something? He's like, Oh, this actually looks kind of cool. I'm gonna keep this.
00:27:09
Speaker
So not part of Fagan's gang, but a very important ah canine character is Georgette. Georgette, I think, is really provocative. um I was happy to hear Bette Midler. I had forgotten that she was in this. And she gets her own song, which is completely loaded. So we're going to do a quick little excerpt from that. It says, girls, we've got work to do. Pass me the paint and glue. Perfect isn't easy, but it's me.
00:27:39
Speaker
And when one knows the world is watching, one does what one must, some minor adjustments darling, not for my vanity, but for humanity." This is this is so incredible. This song is great. Georgette, sorry, go ahead. The ultimate like purebred show dog champion winning.
00:28:03
Speaker
and them. Yes. And and it's Bette Midler. So it's just, it is delightful. um So as you said, Georgette is a show dog. She, what kind of poodle do you think she is? I think she's a standard poodle. And I think they keep her in the show cut, I think, throughout the film, because that's what you see when you look at like Westminster and things, you see poodles with like, the top poof and like the little poofs on their paws and things.
00:28:32
Speaker
And so that really kind of like show quality haircut versus other standard poodles that may have the fur all grown out and things because maybe they're more active in sports or water retrieving and things and so they won't be full coat. But I think that coat that Georgette has is what we think of when we think of a show quality poodle, and it's also what you see on poodle skirts in the 50s. Yes. That's kind of like... It's a very specific silhouette.
00:29:05
Speaker
isn So we know from her song and from what we see happening around her, we know Georgette is a show dog. We see all her trophies and awards, and she obviously feels compelled to present this pedigree image of herself.
00:29:22
Speaker
Uh, to what public, I'm not sure, but it does seem like she maybe has this very active, like social calendar. Uh, where she's like, yeah, she has this dresser or there's some counter and it is full of photos of dogs, presumably that she has met or interacted with or admirers. I don't know who they are, but like she seems to be, uh,
00:29:51
Speaker
in the show circuit, so she does a lot of shows, and maybe she does other things.
Historical Pet Fashion
00:29:57
Speaker
I don't know if this is something you have any ah knowledge of, but you know when you have show dogs, when they're not you know actively participating, what else do they do? I think it really depends on kind of like what the owner handler wants to do. like Some dogs could do like showing, but they could also do dog diving.
00:30:19
Speaker
theyre kinds of fodder sports and things or maybe you do tracking and things. But I think also maybe some show dogs that that's what they do. Okay. but Even if you're not going to like the big competitions and things, you're still entering local ones and things. Yeah, it just I get the sense that because she's so coifed and like she's so ready she's ready to go, that she has a very active calendar where she does a lot of stuff that she has to be on all the time. And she has her own enormous room with this giant set piece, a raised sleeping situation, and this giant portrait of herself on the wall. To be honest, I wasn't really interested in Jenny's absent parents until I saw Georgette, because I was like, who are these people? I want to know who these people are. And this is important to note,
00:31:14
Speaker
Georgette is Jenny's family's dog. So when we meet Georgette, you see her going through this morning, wake up, makeover situation, which is hysterical. um She has a head full of curlers. It looks like on her counter, she's got like on her little vanity, a vat of cold cream, some powders that she uses and some perfumes. I love that we see her put on eyeshadow. Again, another dog with eyeshadow. I don't, I don't know what that is. Like, this is nuts. Like the lashes,
00:31:42
Speaker
Maybe that's how they think like, okay, how can you tell if it's like a girl dog versus a boy dog? Okay. You have them put on like makeup. Makeup means girl. And the eyelashes too. So like, I mean, this might be an an episode later is, you know, how do you sort of feminize animals and things like that. and um But Georgette, so her hairstyle, we were were kind of talking about like, you know, the,
00:32:08
Speaker
the typical poodle styling. It's also, Georgette specifically, it's very like 1940s to me. She's kind of got this Lana Turner hairdo, um has a lot of drama in the front, which is very high, ah sort of a pompadour. And then the sides are like, they're obviously meant to be curled or look like they're supposed to be curled. And she kind of seems like she's very much at the liberty of making selections of clothing for herself. And it's implied that she has her own wardrobe,
00:32:37
Speaker
So she she has her musical number and these birds are kind of flying around her dancing and doing stuff. We see these birds fly into what appears to be a very full closet with outfits and hat boxes and all sorts of stuff and they pull out some things for her to wear.
00:32:52
Speaker
So she gets a wardrobe change amidst her her musical number. ah This absolutely garish ensemble. It's like this animal print fur stole matching fur cuffs around her ankles and an enormous hat with a purple silk flower. I don't know. And this like MGM musical style floating scarf that's a mile long trailing behind her as she walks down the stairs.
00:33:20
Speaker
um And this brings me to ah what I think is actually a really fascinating subject is the history of people dressing their pets. Can we talk a little bit about this aspect of pet keeping kind of in a historical set?
00:33:40
Speaker
since, I guess since when have people started to dress up their pets? Like who, who has historically been in a position to do this and kind of what is the reasoning behind it? Like I, I kind of have a lot of ideas, um, adjacently to like my own kind of historical research and, uh, like art historical research of fashion objects and how fashion is represented in painting. Uh, I'd be very curious to get your perspective on this. Yeah. So, um,
00:34:09
Speaker
I think one thing we did always kind of like begin with is that there have always been pets. Because in reality, a pet is just an animal that you signal signal out as kind of like a favorite. And so that's why we kind of think of like the term pet is for both animals and children. It's basically a favorite of something. But um in terms of dressing up animals, I actually stumbled upon this blog from Colonial Williamsburg which writes about someone making a tiny little red coat for their cat in the 1700s, which was wonderful because A, that's just amazing, but B, I had never seen references to animals being dressed up that early before. Most of the references that I think we see in culture in his um and that have survived and for historical record have been in the 1800s.
00:35:03
Speaker
when the ideas of bringing animals into the home and raising animals alongside children begins to really kind of take off and take shape. Because prior to this emergence of this, what we call the domestic ideology and the domestic sphere, a lot of times animals were kept for economic necessity. And you may have had maybe your favorite horse that you loved. You may have had a special cow, but a lot of times animals were absent from the home.
00:35:32
Speaker
If you have working dogs, they stayed mainly outside. Cats were cats. um You may have just had horses and cows and things out of necessity for farming life. But once you kind of shift focus into the home, into looking at how raising things like children or animals in a positive loving environment, um you begin to bring and to look at animals in a different way.
00:36:01
Speaker
And so you begin to look at the dog and cat rather than just something that will help you turn. You know, we think of dogs turning spit meat on spits in big cities like New York, like spit dogs helping to rotate the meat and things over fire or being ratters and things. And now it's looking at the animals as bringing something like love and companionship rather than just economic value. And I think you see, um,
00:36:29
Speaker
especially in terms of like dressing up animals, is I've always kind of thought of as, it's the beginnings of like anthropomorph anthropomorphization, but I think also, especially you see a lot of times when animals are dressed up, they're always accompanied by a little girl. And so I think it's this belief that the kitten or the puppy, it's one step above the plastic baby doll or the China baby doll.
00:36:57
Speaker
And so it's another way to kind of have girls hone their mothering skills, become mothers one day. It's, you learn how to raise the kitten and the puppy. Maybe you dress them up like you would dress up a baby doll or something, but it's preparing you to be a mother and to have that nurturing.
00:37:19
Speaker
aspect be more developed because it's something that can you know talk back to you you can feed it and play with it it's a being that has agency versus your baby doll that will let you do anything to it because it doesn't have it won't give you a reaction until the ones that are eventually invented that like cry and make and pee and things like that i think it also in that same vein it feels You know, the idea of dressing your pet feels very aspirational and it kind of falls in line with this notion of like conspicuous consumption where people display their wealth and status um through adornment and by extension adorning their pets. When, like in your own research, have you noticed, um I mean, i've I've certainly seen it, you know, like in the 18th century and beyond, you know, people
00:38:18
Speaker
posing with their pets and giving their pets, you know, very fancy accessories and things. And it's like, well, seriously, those cost a lot of money then when you're giving it to a cat or a dog, like might raise a couple eyebrows. um But im I'm curious where you start seeing that a lot in your own research, what time period does that kind of come up? So um in terms of like adorning, I love like Victorian culture, because that's when you start, especially like for upper class,
00:38:47
Speaker
To hire class Victorians, Kathleen Keat has a wonderful book called The Beast and the Boudoir about keeping in Paris and how for the longest time pets were reserved for the upper and middle class of society because they were the ones that could afford the fancy collars, the cute little dresses, the big baskets and things to carry the pets around and things. But I think once you get into the 20s and 30s, for the 1900s at least,
00:39:16
Speaker
you begin to see more people with maybe a little bit more disposable income. And so you begin to be able to see people to buy, you know, toys and things for their their pets. You begin to see, um especially during the Great Depression, you see the rise of small animal vet clinics because people are willing to spend money on these animals because they have money to spend now. And they're considering their pet as part of the family.
00:39:43
Speaker
And so they want to make sure that their animal has veterinary care. They want to make sure that, you know, maybe Sparky needs a sweater when he goes outside because he gets cold. So they have either purchased a sweater or they make one at home. And then now Sparky has clothing that he can wear to protect him from the elements, just like it's humans are protected from the elements. And I think it's just this idea of like just dressing up your pet.
00:40:10
Speaker
in addition to like buying toys and fancy food and things, it's just another way to like show that you love this little creature kind of thing. Even if the pets may not always like to be dressed up, you in your mind think that, oh, this is another way that I show my love is putting this little silly hat on you or, and as um and someone who dressed their de cat up in many Halloween costumes,
00:40:34
Speaker
He did it because I think Smokey just put up with it because he got treats and he loved me. But it was also just kind of cute. This brings us naturally into kind of the next rung on that ladder. We're still talking about Georgette. She has a very interesting collar situation that I want to talk about. So let's get into the pets with collars. What is the brief history of the dog collar specifically?
00:41:01
Speaker
dog collars, you begin to kind of see a rise in, again, like the late 1800s and things. There's always kind of been like maybe a rope or something that you could tie around to have ownership, maybe a strap of leather or something. But in the 1800s, when you begin to see more laws, leash laws really, in terms of you have to have your dog leash and collared, you begin to see it also um especially when taking dogs outside because you want to start looking at like public waste laws and things, like picking up dog's poop and things. Having dogs leashed and collared also meant to showcase that, you know, the dog's been vaccinated for rabies because normally leashes or licenses really would be issued by a veterinarian after they've had their shots. And so you begin to see collars really come about in the Victorian era.
00:41:56
Speaker
And usually it was just kind of not as elaborate as Georgette's, but something that would fit around the neck, usually with like a license either embedded in the collar and like maybe tin, copper or brass or something with like the owner's name engraved and things, or kind of like the little ID tag that we think of now. But that also helped um if dogs were thought to be strays. If a dog was picked up with a leash, with a collar and a license,
00:42:24
Speaker
it would be able to be returned home quickly rather than having to sit at the dog pound for a long time like we see in Lady and the Tramp and eventually destroyed. One of the things that I am not a dog collar historian, pet historian, anything like that, but did a kind of quick look up. It looked like a lot of early dog collars, like as you said, were intended for identification but even earlier and than that, a lot for protection. So I think there's um there is some history of protective, either rope or collars used on early domesticated dogs, um yeah i can like in ancient Rome and things that would protect them from wolves.
00:43:16
Speaker
But eventually, so things that were supposed to be for protection and IDing, they evolved to become these like decorative adornments. We're pets like you're talking about with the Victorians. And this history, it develops kind of alongside the domestication of dogs throughout history. And over the centuries, you can really find the visual evolution in art history. So there are a lot of really great, um you know,
00:43:40
Speaker
art pieces and paintings, photographs, all of this where you can actually see great detailing of how people adorned their they pets for different reasons. um So like going back to the protection thing, so aren't collars with spikes and hardware. They're originally from humans wanting to protect the dogs from attack. I think that's, I was reading about that in like ancient realm, how they had hunting dogs and it was to protect their their throats and their
Breed Stereotypes in Animation
00:44:10
Speaker
necks.
00:44:10
Speaker
from wolves, specifically. And it's interesting, you know as kind of a side note, to see how humans have co-opted the dog collar as a style thing. you know The studded and spiked collars in like subcultural fashion is what comes to mind immediately.
00:44:27
Speaker
I think about like, you know, punk styling and goth and kind of emo styles. There's that same implication of ownership in certain contexts and rebellion in others or even just the sense of constraint. So it's interesting to see how humans have now kind of co-opted that for themselves and in various ways. Oliver, when we first meet him, he's abandoned. He doesn't have an owner. He gets an owner.
00:44:55
Speaker
So Oliver, he gets a collar and there's a very posh address on it. I had to look it up to see if there was a real 1125 Fifth Avenue in Manhattan. It's right on Central Park on the Upper East Side. It's really close to the Met and like the Cooper Hewitt Design Museum. So clearly Jenny's family is doing just fine, whatever it is that they do. Oliver's collar is really simple. It's just this kind of bright blue,
00:45:25
Speaker
banned with a gold circle tag. Nothing fancy, like visually, but it's obviously expensive. Georgette's collar is wild for a dog. It doesn't really appear to have a tag like a license or anything, so it's clearly not for any utilitarian purpose. um You know what it reminded me a lot of actually was Elizabeth Taylor's jewelry in Cleopatra. Yes. Because like this piece is it's jewelry. This is not a functional dog collar. It's a piece of jewelry. Have you ever seen anything like this in your research? I haven't. You know, I've seen like diamond studded collars kind of like what Sykes's Dobermans wear. I've seen like those and stuff.
00:46:10
Speaker
Now you had mentioned, we were talking about the collars for protection and, you know, the studded collars. The two henchmen dogs of Sykes, the movie's villain, Roscoe and DeSoto. We meet them at Fagan's barge when Sykes arrives to collect money from Fagan, which he doesn't have. The dogs are Sykes, his enforcers, and he sends them in to intimidate Fagan and let him know that he's there.
00:46:38
Speaker
I want to talk a little bit about the implications of styling this particular kind of dog. So they have the studded collars, one of them is blue, one of them is red. They don't look like full on spikes. They look like like studs, like big studs on them. They're both Dobermans. I presume that that's what they're supposed to be. And these dogs, they tend to have a reputation for being dangerous or really fierce guard dogs and the artists who are animating them in this, they kind of play into that stereotype to really give them that fierceness ah and using the callers kind of helps. So I'm curious to know kind of ah from your perspective and your research, how does how do the stereotypes around certain dog breeds
00:47:31
Speaker
how did they How does it kind of make it easier to stylize them in an animated film? like but Because there's so many preconceptions and the stereotypes. like You have a very specific image in your head. you know Why does that exist? And how is that successful then in animating these dogs? I'm assuming that the Dobermans were chosen because you they are thought of more dangerous breeds and things. They're thought of more kind of like Not necessarily evil, but. But there's a negative association that people have. And so I think it's interesting because you look at, but then you look at Georgette being a poodle, a very, when you think of a dog, you think of it as very kind of like almost prissy and elegant, I guess.
00:48:20
Speaker
Like I think when you think of poodles, you think that's like what you think of as a show dog and things is a poodle. Yeah, because there's a very specific look that is just absolutely ingrained in that particular breed in people's minds. and But then I think it's interesting because you look at Rita being a saluki in terms of dog salukis that still aren't super well-known, I think, in the US. I think their popularity is maybe grown since this movie was made, but I think it's just kind of interesting that they chose a dog that may not have been as well known to US viewers to put in this movie. And is that because the dog has such a specific
00:49:07
Speaker
Um, look to it that they could capitalize on that in the context of when this film was made. That was, that was kind of my reasoning. You know, well, while this dog, it already looks like you could turn that into an eighties hairdo. So maybe that's the reasoning behind selecting that particular breed. And I think that's probably a good answer is that it's got that kind of elegant, sharp angled kind of like muzzle with like the kind of feathery hairdo and ears and things.
00:49:35
Speaker
And so I think it's one that you can kind of really play with the animation to make it kind of looking like a normal, quote unquote, 80s dog. And I think that's what you see in a lot of animated Disney movies with dogs is you don't see mutts at all, except for theoretically Dodger, but you see en lady in Lady and the Tramp and, you know, Tramp is the mutt, but then you have all of the purebred dogs.
00:50:04
Speaker
And then 101 Dalmatians, again, it's all purebred dogs. And so I almost wonder if for Disney animators, if it's easier for them to draw pictures and using photographs or still life or like what they had done with Lady and the Tramp and Dalmatians bringing actual dogs into the studio to do reference work and things. If it's easier having a purebred dog to go off of where you're able to see different photographs and things you can see different maybe color coat representations depending on kind of what you're looking at for the dogs versus a mutt where it may or it doesn't have that uniformity like a pure red does and it's not as easily recognizable to an audience viewing it.
Character Appearances and Personalities
00:50:53
Speaker
I mean I think that makes sense because that Disney certainly their artists they have a long history of using you know live action models human and animal
00:51:01
Speaker
in their attempts to really make things look appropriate and lifelike and also true to what the subject matter is. So like these are they are dogs, you need them to look and act like dogs, but you need to believe that they have that personality. And I think also capitalizing on the stereotypes that you know, we have about certain types of dog breeds, I think that helps, you know, you know that, okay, when you look at Sykes' dogs, when you look at Roscoe and DeSoto, oh, those are supposed to be bad, you know, they're big black, you know, Dobermans, and they've got the ears and they've got the studded collars. and
00:51:45
Speaker
You know, they look like they're there to start trouble. And to be fair, they are, you know, they start trouble with, you know, Dodger and the gang. But there is this kind of stereotype to the Doberman and the way that they are styled that is capitalized on for the purpose of that character development. And I think if we look at kind of like the collars, like looking at. Georgettes, but not but also the Dobermans and even Oliver's, you can tell it's money.
00:52:13
Speaker
you know, they're meant to be styled in this very elaborate way to showcase that, you know, Sykes has money. Jenny's family obviously has money. Even Oliver's collar, you know, it's either gold plated or like solid gold for the tag. And then you see he gets like the silver little dish and things and Georgette's dish that Oliver eats out of is also very elaborate. So it's again, kind of like highlighting the economic inequality between like Fagin,
00:52:41
Speaker
and these other two these other characters through their pets and things. Well, pivoting away from the dogs for a minute, let's talk about the human characters. So well we can start with Fagan, actually. He's a really interesting character because his styling, it's meant to be really reflective of his situation. So he wears these really baggy overalls, a long trench coat. He's got a beanie and these like fingerless gloves. You can tell um You know, he's not really a total villain in this movie, but he makes a lot of really bad choices that put really everybody else in danger. He does sort of redeem himself at the end, ah but his his situation doesn't really seem to improve when all of this is said and done. ah he He's meant to appear to be very downtrodden and sort of beaten by life. He looked really scruffy and unkempt.
00:53:34
Speaker
He seems to be, I guess, squatting on this barge somewhere in the city docks. And he's heavily in debt to this lone shark, Sykes, who is the real villain of the movie. I think one of the most interesting things about Fagan is that he wears like four watches.
00:53:52
Speaker
Yeah, and including like the Mickey Mouse watch, which I think is hysterical. Yes. So the Mickey, the Mickey Mouse watch, I did some research on this. I'd seen them before. And then I went down this like rabbit hole of like looking into the history of these watches. ah Character watches were, they were wicked popular. um And when this particular ah animated Mickey watch came out it was like in 1933 and there's been a ton of iterations of it since then. um Another one that he's wearing is a digital watch that I was trying to figure out what it could possibly be like
00:54:29
Speaker
It could be like a Timex or maybe a Seiko. I mean, it could be like a Casio. I don't know anything about watches, but I'm curious if any of these are worth enough that Fagin could have like pawned them to put a dent in that debt to p Sykes. Like, why is he wearing four watches and he's having these dogs bring home like... Garbage. Yeah. what Again, I don't know anything about watches, but I got the sense that like, if you have that many watches, maybe you could try to pawn some of those, but what do I know?
00:54:58
Speaker
um Sykes is dressed in a suit, and you always see him with a cigar. A lot of cigars in this movie. um You know who he reminds me of? A ton. When I look at him, he looks like the bad guy from Rescuers Down Under, but like a thicker version of that guy. um And we don't know Sykes' deal, like he's some sort of, quote, business man, but we see him looking kind of slovenly even though he's wearing a suit which indicates maybe he's like not on the up and up. I have a whole bunch of research around you know suiting in Disney films um coming soon ah but yeah the the way he styled that although he is in a suit he doesn't look a hundred percent trustworthy um
00:55:45
Speaker
We really only see him at night time, so maybe maybe I should give him the benefit of the doubt that maybe we're just catching him at the end of the day and that's why his shirt and tie are loose. um But his body language in the suit, he's really like looming and hulking and kind of threatening in his body language. um And suits, the way that they fit, they can really tell you a lot about the person wearing them. And many times they can be used to mislead or trick people, which is something that Disney artists do really well is tricking people with the clothing the characters are wearing. So your preconceptions about someone who looks like Fagin, because of his kind of grungy and tattered clothes, it might lull you
00:56:26
Speaker
into having a false sense of security about a man wearing a suit. um And this is something Disney, like I said, they do it really effectively with their costuming, especially with suits and military inspired garments.
00:56:41
Speaker
um One day I will get into the deception of the Disney suit, but I won't do it today. Let's talk about Jenny because she's she's very important in this story. You don't see her, you know, a ton until the end. Well, no, she gets her own song. Never mind. She does get a couple of wardrobe changes. Jenny is a little girl from a wealthy family who finds Oliver in the midst of a con. The gain is the gang is running and she decides to bring him home and adopt him.
00:57:09
Speaker
the gang thinks that Oliver's been kidnapped and they go to Jenny's house to help him escape. When we first meet Jenny she's wearing a pretty run-of-the-mill like school uniform um but then when she's at home you get to see some more like fun 80s fashions. So she has like leggings and this big belted oversized turtleneck again with some more high tops. And this is fun because it's like really low key normal style. It's not the crazy cliche of the 80s where everything's neon and rubber bracelets. um And it's interesting to see how they dress child characters in comparison to adults because sometimes kids end up looking just like small adults. Like you see a lot of this in like art history where
00:57:55
Speaker
uh you know that there's that like those memes like hey artist draw me a picture of a kid silence well you've seen a kid right yeah yeah yeah sure and it's just like a mini version of the adult as opposed to like an actual child what you um so it's fun to see her actually kind of given a style and she looks like a kid but she looks very appropriate to the time period in which she is living like it makes sense And she is kind of important. We do get to see her friendship with Oliver develop a little bit. So you see her, um, doing regular things with him. Uh, she wears regular clothes and pajamas. Her pajamas actually, they remind me a lot of Ariel's nightgown and the little mermaid. Yeah. Um, I think they're two pieces. It's not a dress, but like the styling and the color are really super similar.
00:58:49
Speaker
And then later in the movie, she has a little, she has a raincoat. um Actually, and so does Georgette. Georgette, she has like a little cape and a matching hat that she wears. So again, this extensive wardrobe that Georgette has. And Georgette is funny to me because if you ever are able to do kind of like meet the breeds with like Westminster or other purebred dog shows, um for a lot of the thicker coated dogs like Newfoundland's or St. Bernard's, they'll have little bibs on so they don't pull.
00:59:18
Speaker
You know, I just think that's adorable. It's very cute. But it's also just kind of like such a purebred dog thing where it's like, my dog just got freshly groomed. I don't want them to get wet. So I'm gonna like throw them in a raincoat or something. Yes. And it's, again, that anthropomorphizing of the animals to give them those human qualities, you know, like, I don't want to get wet, like I need my raincoat, I need to make sure my hair is covered so it doesn't get crazy. And you know, that's a very valid human concern.
00:59:46
Speaker
um So Oliver, he ends up back at Fagin's barge with the gang and Fagin notices the new caller with the very posh address on it and he decides he's gonna try to ransom Oliver for money to pay back Sykes.
Climax and Resolution
01:00:01
Speaker
Jenny receives the ransom letter and she and Georgette go to the docks to save Oliver and then Fagin realize this is a huge mistake and he tries to get Jenny to go home with Oliver and he's gonna try to figure something else out later.
01:00:15
Speaker
Jenny is then kidnapped for real by Sykes and Fagan and Oliver and the gang have to save her. This chase scene is absolutely insane.
01:00:26
Speaker
ah no none of this None of this has anything to do with fashion or anything. It's just crazy. So Fagan is driving his moped, i what is this? It's like the like a little Vespa with a basket on it, on the Brooklyn Bridge.
01:00:44
Speaker
driving it on there while Sykes is following him in but his town car, his limo, whatever this is. I think they also drive through a subway station. Eventually Sykes is brutally destroyed by an oncoming train while he's driving on the tracks. And then the movie ends like very bizarrely with Fagan and Jenny's family butler and full-time nanny, I guess,
01:01:14
Speaker
Watching wrestling on TV in their house um During some kind of party. I think it's it's Jenny's birthday, right? Okay, so she has at this party her Butler Fagan and this this pack of dogs um so that's what's going on. Sykes is dead, so I guess Fagan is off the hook, ah but there doesn't really seem to be any mobilization into a better financial situation for him. Because he even tries to like bet Winston on like the outcome of like the wrestling match, and he loses. And then that's when like, okay, that's when the party ends is when Fagan loses and doesn't have the
Evolution of Pets in Disney Films
01:01:51
Speaker
money. Right. um so win in And so then he's like, I think we should leave. Yeah. And then
01:01:59
Speaker
but Yes, the the dog gang takes off with they and leaving Oliver in his new home with Jenny and then they go right around on the tops of some more cars and Out there in the street and that is the end of Oliver and company so in your watching of Disney Kind of in tandem with your research on pet keeping, you know, what are what are some things that you notice? I I think one thing I've noticed, that one thing I want to kind of circle back to Oliver and company real quick is that when Oliver gets the collar, it's very, it harks back to when lady gets her collar and lady at the tramp. It's a big deal. Just like it is in lady in the tramp. It's a big deal when Oliver gets his license and his collards. He's finally becoming, you know, a pet because he has that saying that sign um signifier of ownership in the collar.
01:02:55
Speaker
But in terms of pet keeping in Disney, I think it's interesting because I think the last kind of crop of animated films is that we're almost kind of... You know, I think of Mochi in Big Hero 6, like the kind of fat, lazy cat. But there hasn't really been a pet-focused Disney film in a while, I think. I think now, instead of kind of putting pets as their own heroines and heroes within their own story, we see them as kind of more sidekicks to the human. Except probably for Lilo and Stitch.
01:03:32
Speaker
like the last fully like animal animal film I think we got from Disney was I think Zootopia and even then it's not there aren't pets it's anthropomorphic dressed up animals living in society o and so I think we've kind of moved away in Disney films from this idea of like pet keeping and the pets become the star of their own film to the pets are the lovable sidekicks, sure but don't really do much except to make us laugh. I'm curious, you had mentioned ah early on that you you really love the story of Oliver Twist and you watched the one with Elisha Wood a whole bunch. Do you think, just in your opinion, do you think that using dogs for this adaptation was really successful? Like, does it make sense to you? Like, is this a a good adaptation of Oliver Twist?
01:04:29
Speaker
I think it is. I think I remember reading that Charles Dickens was a dog person. And so I think him having like adapting one of his most famous works with like dogs and him being such a dog lover, I think it's almost kind of like a nice little homage.
01:04:49
Speaker
um But then also I'm kind of like, I don't know, I think because there had been so many human adaptations of Oliver Twist since it had come out, I think we kind of inventing it with animals put a new fresh spin on it and the tail. Because I mean, when it's obviously it's not the tail like page to screen, but I think if you know at least a little bit about Oliver Twist, I think you can kind of follow along and understand like, oh, hey, you know, Oliver's the little orphan boy, except now it's an orphan kitten. yeah Dodger's still the one that kind of does all the business for Fagin and things. Sykes is still the one that everyone has problems with. And so I think it's kind of interesting because I think it almost kind of maybe breathes new life into the film, rather than just another retelling of Oliver Twist with humans.
01:05:45
Speaker
maybe a different directional vision vision than like the previous ones, but it's still humans playing humans from a book. It's not trying to animate dogs and things from this classic story. Yeah. i And I think that's something Disney had had done pretty pretty successfully for a while was taking these you know classic stories and then adding you know the the fresh spin by either using animals or you know like Lion King. you know as the the kind of Hamlet adaptation. um But that it also kind of was making me think a little bit about what is it about our connection as a society to canine friends that we can so easily anthropomorphize them.
01:06:31
Speaker
um And then kind of subsequently, it's so easy to adorn them in human garments and accessorize to impart the personality that we kind of ascribe to them.
Celebrity Influence in Animation
01:06:46
Speaker
And I wonder if that's why this is a, quote, successful, you know, adaptation, because, you know, dogs are very easy to see personality in and you dress them up a little bit. And it's very easy to, you know, hey,
01:07:01
Speaker
ah dog's like Billy Joel. Yeah, I know that dog. And he sings this rockin song and that's great. um And like Tito, he's got the little bandana and you know, you know what Cheech Marin looks like and you can hear his voice and you know what the personality is and like the comedy there. So I get it all kind of works and makes sense together. Or if you think of like, Georgia with Bette Midler, like Bette Midler.
01:07:25
Speaker
Georgette being a pure, a show dog, Georgette's an entertainer. Bette Midler got started out singing in bath houses and things, entertaining people. So it's kind of like, it goes back to her as well. So like the three kind of like, I guess like almost like stacked celebrity voices, they all like their dog counterparts all kind of like mirror them.
01:07:47
Speaker
in some way, which I think is interesting. Yeah, I know, I totally agree. And I think that's, again, something that the Disney artists, they do because they use um live, you know, models as they are drawing. And, you know, when you are hearing, you know, Bette Midler sing the numbers, some of that personality is going to carry over into the animation. And, you know, I've seen pictures of Bette Midler and I've seen movies and you know, things of hurt in the 70s and 80s with the perms and all of that. And like, okay, yeah, I can see Georgette here. Sure. That makes sense. But speaking of, you know, 80s fashions and all of that, we talked a little bit about sneaker culture and and all of the sneakers that show up in this movie. There was an exhibition called The Rise of Sneaker Culture, I think in like 2015. It was curated by the Bata Shoe Museum.
01:08:43
Speaker
ah in Toronto, and it was actually hosted at the Brooklyn Museum. It has a really fantastic accompanying catalog that is a great visual resource on sneakers. And I had mentioned a quote by Bill Pete about animating personalities. That actually comes from a book called Paper Dreams, the Art and Artists of Disney Storyboards by John Canemaker. I'd also recommend The Illusion of Life by Frank Thomas and Ollie Johnson about character animation at Disney Studios.
01:09:13
Speaker
um And I've mentioned this before too, but Mark Davis was a really exceptional artist in many things, but a character design and animation of animals.
Further Reading and Resources
01:09:23
Speaker
So even though he wasn't involved in this particular film, if you are interested in learning more about, you know, kind of the Disney treatment to that arena, look at Mark Davis's work on films like Bambi.
01:09:36
Speaker
um Hannah, if people want to learn more about like the history of pet keeping, what sources could you point them to? Yeah, there's a few really good books that I can um kind of point you to. Catherine Greer came out with a book called Pets in America, a history. It's just the history about pet keeping in America, beginning with looking at indigenous pet keeping,
01:10:03
Speaker
up until maybe the early 2000s with the rise of kind of like the big box pet store, like PetSmart and Petco and things and looking at how pet keeping is now a billion dollar industry in the US every year. But in terms of looking at more historical ones, in addition to Greer, um Harriet Ritvo, the ink um The English estate looks at one chapter on just kind of purebred dog culture in Victorian England, which is really interesting and looking at like, not just a purebred dog as pets, but looking at purebred dog shows and beginning of like crufts and things, which is really kind of cool because those ladies were vicious. Early purebred dog shows were like insane.
01:10:50
Speaker
Um, there's also, as I mentioned, Kathleen Keats, the beast in the boudoir that looks at pet keeping in 19th century Paris, which is really cool. And then my favorite is, um, valuing animals, which looks at the rise of veterinarians and the relationship with animals in the US from the beginnings of like large animal veterinarians into small animal veterinary clinics.
01:11:17
Speaker
And so that's my Susan
Hannah's Research and Future Works
01:11:18
Speaker
D. Jones. And that's a really interesting book that ties into larger ideas of human animal relationship throughout history. Where can people read more about your work? I can, um so I've had two articles published. One is on a website called Nursing Clio.
01:11:44
Speaker
which it looks at, um it's typically medical um the history of medicine and things, but it's all different types of history and things. So I've had one article published for that that's called Toppers, um GI Benefits, Good Homes, and Vivisection Fears, and that looks at what happened to war dogs when they came home.
01:12:08
Speaker
because there was this fear that after dogs were finished serving in World War II that people would find out that the dogs um served in the war and that they would be more profitable to sell to vivisection laboratories. And so there's this kind of fear about protecting the war dog veteran And so that is ah available on Nursing Clio. And then the other one that I've done is called Country Before Dog on Contingent Magazine. And that looks at, which will eventually become a dissertation chapter, but it looks at children donating their dogs to the war effort.
01:12:51
Speaker
which is super interesting because a lot of this propaganda that was published was actually focused on children in terms of children's books, cartoons, all the movies that came out starred little kids giving up their dogs to the war effort. I'm also on Twitter, but I mainly just use it to post pictures of my cat now. I want to see my cat. I mean, that's what Twitter is good for now. it Yeah. Yeah.
01:13:20
Speaker
um So we know you you are working on your dissertation. um Is there anything else that you are working on that you want to share or kind of hype up or things that we can look at coming out? um I'm going to be submitting an abstract to a Disney Studies journal that may become a published in a published volume about Disney and animals. And it is looking at how during World War II, even though Disney never produced cartoons directly in support of Dogs for Defense. The cartoons that were created um starring Pluto kind of showcased what actual dogs were doing in the service. And so that's kind of showing how even though Disney didn't directly come out and say we're supporting Dogs for Defense, how they utilized Pluto in these cartoons mirrored what people were seeing in newspapers or press photos or
01:14:19
Speaker
more videos about what actual dogs were doing. And so that may, I have to submit the abstract soon, and but if it's accepted, the I think the edited collection would be out sometime next year.
Episode Wrap-Up
01:14:33
Speaker
So that's awesome that might be something to kind of keep an eye out on. Thank you for joining me. This has been really fun. I really appreciate the time and I'm so glad you were able to join me for this.
01:14:43
Speaker
Yeah, this was, thanks for having me on. This was really fun. I love talking to people about the history of pets and I love talking to people, especially about the history of like pet keeping within Disney films. Cause I think it's really neat because when you look at Disney studies, a lot of it for pet keeping has been focused so much on gender and things, which is great, but they're not but there's another whole area to dive into in terms of, you know, what does it mean to be a pet? How do these films match up historically and what we have records for for pet keeping? So I think this was really fun to talk about. And I mean, I'm always game to talk about Oliver & Company to anyone. Awesome. So everybody hears that more more on Oliver & Company from Hannah in the future.
01:15:30
Speaker
um So thank you guys for listening and be sure to follow Disney undressed on Instagram and threads where I'll be posting some fun visual references for the episode as well as info for the next episode so keep an eye out for that and I hope you will join me again as I undress your favorite