Transcript
Speaker: Hi, I'm Miss Dears Geek and welcome to the first episode of Equivox Unplugged, a series that aims to educate, amplify and empower the next generation of gaming and pop culture professionals and creators.
Speaker: So today I have with me a very special guest, someone I've admired and been very inspired by for quite some time, Dr. JC Lau.
Speaker: In addition to being a senior producer at Probably Monsters with experience developing multiple internationally renowned video games, Jaycee is an award-winning speaker and advocate for diversity, inclusion, equity and representation in the games industry.
Speaker: Jaycee was also the recipient of the Individual Diversity Advocate Award at the Women in Games Global Awards and was included in the Games Awards Future Class among several other accolades.
Speaker: Welcome Jaycee, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker: It's such an honor to have you.
Speaker: Thank you for having me.
Speaker: I'm really excited to chat with you.
Speaker: awesome well i like i said i've really been wanting to chat with you for some time we've known each other for quite a while now and i've been following your journey and it's just been something that's so inspiring to me not only as someone who's also in games but also as someone who's in australia because i understand you come from australia as well um from melbourne if i'm correct yeah i grew up in melbs so yeah oh nice well there's that connection there and then obviously you're also from the asian diaspora which i'm from as well and
Speaker: as you and I both know, Asian representation is so important.
Speaker: So I think all the work you've done has been so amazing.
Speaker: And I would love to share with everyone listening your journey and all the good work that you've done.
Speaker: So if you don't mind me starting, I'd like to ask you a little bit about your
Speaker: I guess, intro into games.
Speaker: I saw that you were admitted as a lawyer in the High Court of Australia.
Speaker: That's super amazing.
Speaker: Is it the High Court or the Supreme Court here?
Speaker: It's the Supreme Court of Victoria.
Speaker: But yeah, that's so each state has their own admission to practice.
Speaker: So that's where I went.
Speaker: Did you ever end up practicing law or did you just go through?
Speaker: I practiced law like as part of becoming a lawyer you have to actually do legal practice like with like under the supervision of a law firm and I did a lot of work in family law and in and specifically with people from like lower income communities so I did a lot of pro bono work and then ended up specializing in family law specifically as it pertains to children who are the products or the objects of a divorce so
Speaker: And I was like 22, 23 at the time.
Speaker: So it was really intense.
Speaker: So yeah, but I think that was a very interesting first job.
Speaker: I have to say that coming out of university and going straight into something so impactful, do you think that sort of helped you carve this path into wanting to kind of make some changes and be
Speaker: a person who can, you know, impact society in a way?
Speaker: Do you think that kind of helped you start this kind of work?
Speaker: I think to an extent it did.
Speaker: I was one of those people that always wanted to get into games and I was very fortunate when I was
Speaker: very very young and this is going to give you a hint to how old i am um my mum bought an apple 2e that was our first computer in the 80s and you know at the time i was she was like oh you know like computers are this thing they'll take off and everyone wants a week so we bought this computer and the only thing i we had on it was pac-man at the time so i just played tons and tons of this as a child and
Speaker: I really and I love games but there wasn't a really clear path into games at the time.
Speaker: I went to game schools in Australia.
Speaker: The closest thing was really like you know you do a computer science degree or engineering and I wasn't but my like I when I was in school like when you know you choose your courses for university and you have to pick your
Speaker: like year 11, year 12 classes, I was very into liberal arts.
Speaker: So I actually did, you know, history and political science and like philosophy.
Speaker: Those were my three majors when I went into uni.
Speaker: So I actually went to Monash for my undergrad and I did an arts law degree.
Speaker: And throughout that time, I loved games and I actually ended up using games as part of my work.
Speaker: So as a lawyer, like I was working with children who were like, and some of my clients were very like close in age to me.
Speaker: um because i witnessed fresh out of uni and a lot of them were going through these very hard times and games was just a really great way to connect with them and you know help them through a very challenging time and so i ended up using games as just a great medium to like connect and build trust and like and then after that i left the legal profession and i went back into academia so i got a
Speaker: master's in advanced legal practice and I have a master's in philosophy and then I went and did a PhD in philosophy at the Australian National University in political philosophy which sounds like it has really nothing to do with games but it was really interesting because I ended up using games in teaching as well like so I ended up getting my PhD and I taught
Speaker: political philosophy and ethics and a lot of the work that went into that was just having students understand like moral problems and how we navigate them and games is a great field for that so you think about things like fable or like the telltale games like you know
Speaker: The Walking Dead and The Wolf of the Mungas had just come out at this time.
Speaker: There was Grand Theft Auto is full of moral decisions you can make.
Speaker: And using games as part of my work was a great way to also connect with my students.
Speaker: But also it was really educational as a tool.
Speaker: So it was just like, you know, we could, we would read a paper that was a, you know, that's just like, you know, a lot of philosophy papers are quite dry and they're written by people.
Speaker: like, you know, they were written 100 years ago and you just have to try and apply it in a more relevant sense to what you are currently, like, what your current life looks like.
Speaker: And so we would read the paper, talk about, like, what the moral theory is and then play the game like that would represent it.
Speaker: So there's a torture mini game in GTA 5, for example, and I'm not...
Speaker: Like, I'm not commenting on like the content of that, but like that is a moral question.
Speaker: Like, do you torture the person to get information to like, you know, stop the bad thing from happening?
Speaker: And it was just a great application and it just made for a really good conversation.
Speaker: But eventually I just wanted to do the games part.
Speaker: I loved these other parts of my work and how they overlapped with what I like, you know, what I was doing at the time, but I just wanted to go do games.
Speaker: So yeah.
Speaker: Okay, so, you know, after doing all of that and teaching, how did you end up in game development?
Speaker: I mean, you've worked in game development for quite some time now after all your teaching work.
Speaker: How did that happen?
Speaker: So, I am very fortunate.
Speaker: I have a very supportive partner who is also a game developer.
Speaker: And at the time I had, I was transitioning from academia into games.
Speaker: And a lot of the work there is like basically, you know, rebuilding your like resume, making a case that like, you know, here are my skills transferable, that sort of stuff.
Speaker: So I was very fortunate that I had someone that already knew how to navigate that.
Speaker: But
Speaker: It was one of those things where I could just be supported as I learned more about games, I learned more about project management, which is what I actually ended up studying.
Speaker: I did an additional certificate in that just to help bolster my skills.
Speaker: And my first job was actually just at Xbox in localization.
Speaker: And the fun thing about this, and I know we have a connection with Xbox, so we can talk more about that, but my first job was actually localizing
Speaker: to Australian and New Zealand English from the source language, which is American English.
Speaker: So I, yeah, so, and this is like for the Xbox console.
Speaker: So, you know, if you change your locale to Australia and New Zealand on the Xbox, then, you know, you can see the words are spelt in the way that they would be in Australia, not in America.
Speaker: Some of the like terminology for like your avatars and that sort of stuff would change.
Speaker: And so that was what I was working on at the time.
Speaker: And, you know,
Speaker: And I was working on a team alongside other folks who were localizing from American English into Russian or Turkish or Swedish or something.
Speaker: So I actually ended up having a little bit more time to just study and guide them.
Speaker: And I ended up being one of the coordinators for the team.
Speaker: So that also helped give me more experience in project management as well.
Speaker: And from there, I could just take that skill and then go, and then I went to Bungie, which like was my first like games job, like at a game studio.
Speaker: So yeah.
Speaker: That's amazing.
Speaker: I mean, the fact that, you know, you went from,
Speaker: to teaching to Xbox as your like first, you know, game company to work with.
Speaker: That's like, that's a dream come true for so many people, you know, I mean, a lot of people assume that you have to go through the smaller sort of indie development studios, maybe work in like an agency or a smaller publisher, and then you kind of work your way up to get to like your Sony and your Microsoft.
Speaker: And
Speaker: you know, it's even for me, like I would just kill for a job at Xbox.
Speaker: And so, you know, when it comes to working at Xbox, was there any kind of hurdles with, you know, getting a first job at Xbox?
Speaker: So I actually came into it
Speaker: I almost want to say sideways because I worked in localisation and for localisation they just need people from that particular locale.
Speaker: And I was very lucky because there was an opening for an Australian.
Speaker: I'm an Australian so I got that job.
Speaker: But the thing that I think was very...
Speaker: relevant for applying for that job and also like any and by extension any other job afterwards in games is demonstrating your skills and the relevant skills like like the skill set and how it applies to the job that you're having and coming from law and academia it was actually very interesting and it was actually a little bit challenging to go from that into games because a lot of the work that you do there is by yourself like you know when you're an academic you're teaching your own courses a lot of times
Speaker: as a philosopher, most of your research is done by yourself.
Speaker: Like, it's not like a lot of, I know a lot of science papers are like, you know, you have like 10 authors or whatever, but with philosophy, it's very much a single person doing the research and writing a paper.
Speaker: And so I had to show that all these skills still transferred into being able to work on a team.
Speaker: I was a good communicator with people.
Speaker: I knew how to collaborate.
Speaker: And I think there's a couple of extra steps you have to do to make people see that.
Speaker: And, you know,
Speaker: at first it was actually quite challenging because people were like, but you seem so overqualified, you have a PGT.
Speaker: And I'm like, yes, but I'm transferring careers.
Speaker: Like, you know, please don't think that just because I have oddly specific knowledge in this one very small domain that it transfers over.
Speaker: So there was a little bit of just making sure that I could prove that like the skill sets transferred over and were relevant.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: Yeah, because now that you've mentioned that, I think that's such an important part to remember is no matter what you do, there's always going to be some form of transferable skills and you need to just be able to showcase that and apply it to the role you're applying for.
Speaker: So, you know, you mentioned earlier that you had to almost rewrite your CV and show how these transferable skills apply to these jobs that you are going for in games.
Speaker: how did you go about that?
Speaker: I mean, you talked about, you know, you had a really supportive partner who's also in game dev.
Speaker: So I'm sure you guys worked together on building out your CV, but do you know of any other ways that people can, you know, figure out how to apply these transferable skills or even how do you identify what transferable skills are?
Speaker: Do you have any advice on that?
Speaker: Yeah, I think one thing that I found useful is I just did a very quick exercise.
Speaker: So there is a book called So What Are You Going to Do With That?
Speaker: And it's specifically written for people who have graduate degrees trying to go into a field that's not the field that they have their degree in.
Speaker: And so I actually have a copy of this book.
Speaker: And it was very useful for like it has a whole bunch of like it's two authors and they're talking about like, you know,
Speaker: How do you market your skills?
Speaker: How do you make yourself relevant?
Speaker: And there are a lot of different exercises you can do when you say, what is the thing that I have done?
Speaker: What is the thing that's currently on my CV?
Speaker: And what is the, I'm breaking that down, what are the most fundamental parts of doing that work?
Speaker: And then how does that translate?
Speaker: So an example might be for going from academia to games.
Speaker: if I were to do research in academia, like for example, I like part of getting a PhD is writing a dissertation and to write a dissertation, it's basically managing a project for yourself for three years.
Speaker: You have to do the research, you have to pace yourself.
Speaker: You know, if you're on a scholarship, there's also like managing the funding of that, finding additional sources of funding like teaching.
Speaker: And a lot of that is understanding how to
Speaker: make those relevant.
Speaker: So that's basically, so you can say this is like writing dissertation is project management.
Speaker: Here is how I budget it.
Speaker: This is how I manage budget.
Speaker: This is how I manage a schedule.
Speaker: This is how my timelines and like my resources.
Speaker: Like if I had to interview people for my research, how do I do that?
Speaker: And so demonstrating how it fit was one of the things that I had to do.
Speaker: Another example might be just like
Speaker: academia is about taking very, very abstract concepts and then breaking them down into like a way that someone could understand in a few sentences because no one wants to really sit there and listen to you talk about your dissertation all day.
Speaker: But yeah, but if someone says, hey, what's your PhD about?
Speaker: Or like, you know, what are you writing about?
Speaker: You have to be able to distill it down to like, you know, one or two sentences.
Speaker: And so they get it.
Speaker: And that's basically the same skill as writing a bug in games.
Speaker: Like if you work in QA, like you are doing a whole bunch of investigation into a bug and you have to write it out in two sentences so someone can look at that and be like, I understand what this bug is and I know how to like fix it or I know how to prioritize like who should fix it.
Speaker: So yeah, a lot of that was, so transferring skills was also showing this is what I've done.
Speaker: This is how it applies now.
Speaker: And just like connecting those dots for people, like the easier you make that connection for people, then the more employable you also look.
Speaker: So that was something else I also learned along the way.
Speaker: So yeah.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Yeah, no, I think, you know, even for myself, having I myself came from law, and then went into PR, and then found my way into marketing.
Speaker: It was always such a challenge just going, how do I take what I did before and apply it to what I want to do now.
Speaker: And I think it's something that, you know, for me, personally, I had to learn along the way, I didn't really have any books or anything that helped guide me.
Speaker: You know, it was more trial and error.
Speaker: And
Speaker: A lot of failures, but I think you get a lot of knowledge and you learn a lot as you go through.
Speaker: So I think that's super inspiring to hear that you've almost done the same thing where you've had to essentially
Speaker: learn along the way and i think a lot of people have the notion or the idea of like you know i have a degree i should be able to get a job right away without having to do any kind of marketing of themselves and i think that's that's something i mean correct me if i'm wrong it feels like in today's world especially you really need to know how to sell yourself and it's not just um yeah it's it's not just i go to university get a fancy degree and immediately i can get a job
Speaker: Yeah, especially in the games industry right now, there is a conversation that's been going on about the challenges that people who are entering the industry now
Speaker: face.
Speaker: And, you know, a lot of what I said before about when I entered the industry is very different and no longer applies.
Speaker: It's because the landscape of what the industry is has changed.
Speaker: And so there is a lot of work that people like I would encourage people to do to make their resume stand out.
Speaker: You don't have to land the job with your resume.
Speaker: Like sometimes it's easy to think about.
Speaker: using your resume to start a conversation with a recruiter or a hiring manager, but you have to be interesting enough so that they will want to talk to you in the first place.
Speaker: And, you know, so it's not enough just to rely on the fact you have a degree or that you've, you know, that you use a particular engine or whatever on a piece like, you know, and that's what it says on a piece of paper.
Speaker: You have to actually
Speaker: do additional work to like demonstrate that you are going to be a good team player.
Speaker: You're going to be a good collaborator, a good communicator.
Speaker: You know, you can get your stuff done and that you are excited about games.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: So just now sidetracking a little bit to the roles that you've had.
Speaker: So you said, you know, you work in project management and then you moved on to Bungie.
Speaker: What exactly did you do at Bungie?
Speaker: Were you also doing similar kind of work?
Speaker: I actually started in QA at Bungie.
Speaker: So that was my foot into game development.
Speaker: And I think my skills from Xbox were very useful for that.
Speaker: It was just easy to say, hey, like, you know, here's how they transferred.
Speaker: And then after I spent some time at Bungie, I moved into production.
Speaker: I really enjoy production.
Speaker: QA and production are very similar in that these are the roles where you have a very high level view of the project.
Speaker: You know about the project.
Speaker: health and so it was easy to kind of move from one to the other.
Speaker: I, yeah, but I think production is kind of where I found my home and I think that's where I want to stay.
Speaker: So yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Well, um,
Speaker: for people like me who have varying different ideas of what production is and what being a producer is, because the term producer is used in so many different industries, but they're so different from each other.
Speaker: Can you give me a rough idea of what does a producer do in games?
Speaker: Like what does a day-to-day look like?
Speaker: Yeah, that is a really good question.
Speaker: I could spend the entire rest of this podcast talking about this.
Speaker: Very fundamentally, a producer's role is like you are the person whose job it is to make sure the game actually goes out the door.
Speaker: Like your job is to ship the game on time, under budget and at whatever the level of quality is that you've.
Speaker: agreed on.
Speaker: And the reason I say we could talk about this forever is because there are also a lot of different types of producers.
Speaker: So I work with a development team.
Speaker: So I work with the designers, the engineers, the artists, QA, UI, all the people that are actually working on building the game.
Speaker: There is another Striper producer that works in publishing, so they work with marketing, and they work with a development team and a dev producer like me just to make sure the schedule is right for when the game's going to come out, like if it's up for a particular platform that it meets all the requirements of that.
Speaker: So it's a different type of producer, but it's still a producer.
Speaker: Fundamentally, your skills are still the same.
Speaker: I think the day-to-day for a producer is also, it varies.
Speaker: A lot of it is about planning and scoping.
Speaker: So you have to like spreadsheets, you don't have to be good at spreadsheets, but you have to know how to like plan a project.
Speaker: I really like having that very high level view of a project to see like all the different moving parts and seeing when they all come together and make a game.
Speaker: That's really cool.
Speaker: I also like the ability to drill down into a particular feature.
Speaker: So I have feature teams that I work with and we might say, like, we're working on characters.
Speaker: Okay, what does that look like?
Speaker: Or we're working on environments.
Speaker: What does that look like?
Speaker: And so I get to work with all these people from all these different areas of expertise and we all work together to make something.
Speaker: And my job is just to unblock them.
Speaker: My job is to empower them.
Speaker: I see producers as force multipliers.
Speaker: So we are there to be like, how do I help you do your best work?
Speaker: Okay, that's so cool.
Speaker: I think that there's so much involved in that, it seems, that I'm guessing that no day is the same and that every day is a different challenge that you have to work on or a different challenge to overcome.
Speaker: it seems that a producer's role is so fundamental to the game launching.
Speaker: How do you suppose someone could get involved into being a producer?
Speaker: Do you think that, I know your pathway is very different, but do you know if there's like a particular course that people can study or how would someone pick up those skills that a producer requires, I suppose?
Speaker: So there are courses that are available.
Speaker: So you can do a project management course.
Speaker: There are certifications you can get.
Speaker: I would say those are not required at all.
Speaker: The main thing I think that's most important for a producer is your soft skills.
Speaker: And what I mean by this is like you have to be empathetic.
Speaker: You have to be firm.
Speaker: You have to be kind.
Speaker: You have to be able to communicate with a whole bunch of different people.
Speaker: So you have to have good emotional intelligence.
Speaker: And
Speaker: A lot of my work is around that, but just not like, you know, but it shows up in different ways.
Speaker: So for example, it might be we're just
Speaker: we're working on a particular feature and it's going to come in a little bit and it's going to come in a little bit late.
Speaker: Okay, well, how do I negotiate that with someone else in a way that is mutually satisfactory for everyone?
Speaker: Because ultimately we're all trying to meet the same goal, which is to ship the game.
Speaker: Sometimes it's making sure that people on my team are supported and not over-tasked with something if they've got like, if they're stressed out or there's something,
Speaker: outside of work going on, like, how do I support them in a way so that they can still do their best work?
Speaker: And that requires being able to talk to people and, and like understand people and have empathy for them.
Speaker: So I think there are different types of producers that, and like every producer is different.
Speaker: There's like a little, I think there's a little triangle diagram you can imagine where every producer is some combination of a people producer, a process producer, because we make processes that make people's work more efficient and a,
Speaker: product or project produces.
Speaker: So it's like, and then like the priority is the product.
Speaker: But you can't be too much of one of these things.
Speaker: If you are entirely process, you're prioritizing the process, whether or not it works for people.
Speaker: If you're entirely project, then you're just focused on getting the thing out the door at the cost of maybe your people or like cutting corners on your processes.
Speaker: you're entirely people you might never ship a thing but everyone's having a great time so you really need to be a little bit of all of those things and part of being a good producer is understanding when to press on each of those points of that triangle right that's so interesting i definitely won't be able to do any of those in perfect harmony i'm usually
Speaker: fortunately, unfortunately, the kind of person who'd lean on the people side.
Speaker: It's like, are you happy?
Speaker: Are you okay?
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Personally, I think that's very fundamental to being a producer because you can't make a product if you don't have people.
Speaker: So I think that's a very good mindset to have.
Speaker: But I also think it's one of those things where you're moving.
Speaker: It's like a weird balancing act.
Speaker: You're always moving between these three points on any given day in any given scenario.
Speaker: So I don't think there is a right answer for this.
Speaker: Yeah, OK.
Speaker: It does sound like there's a lot of pressure as well involved in having to balance all of these different things and working across so many different teams.
Speaker: How do you deal with that kind of pressure, especially closer to a game launch?
Speaker: So that pressure can show up in a lot of different ways.
Speaker: And sometimes it is having conversations about what is left to go into a game.
Speaker: So like, what do we keep?
Speaker: What do we cut?
Speaker: What goes into the, like, you know, if we have a lot of stuff that we know isn't going to make into the game, like, how do we still make this useful for people?
Speaker: Like, is there a DLC it goes in?
Speaker: Like, how do we support the people who have done that work?
Speaker: You know, so it's not just thrown away.
Speaker: way.
Speaker: And sometimes those can be very emotionally like challenging conversations, like people can be attached to their work and it's good work.
Speaker: I respect that.
Speaker: So we need to just have a conversation about what is right for the project.
Speaker: There are also times where it might be that we are looking at trying to close out a project and we need to think about how to keep people like, you know, engaged with their work because, you know, if a development cycle is three or five years or whatever, then
Speaker: you know if you've been working on the same thing for five years it's a long time like you know you want to make sure people are still engaged you want people to stay stay around so like they'll be there for the next one um don't want to burn people out so i think it's very important to make sure that your workplace practices are sustainable and and to make sure that the people who are doing the work are acknowledged for that so they're credited for it um so yeah a lot of that just comes down to having those conversations and making sure that
Speaker: people understand what the expectations are and that they are being supported.
Speaker: So then that's a perfect segue into my next question, which obviously is around sustainable pathways and sustainable work and also looking after people.
Speaker: And people obviously come in various shapes and forms and backgrounds and the like.
Speaker: And you've done so many different bits and bobs and some incredible work around diversity and equity, inclusion, even representation as well.
Speaker: And obviously, you've been awarded for a lot of these things that you've done.
Speaker: how did you get involved in advocacy and when you know I think you created the Bungie Diversity Committee, how did you get involved in that?
Speaker: What sparked that sort of work for you?
Speaker: So I think I was in a very unique position when I came into Bungie just because I have this background in law and academia and those are both two fields where asking questions is just how you do the work and
Speaker: I am very importantly for me, it was me coming from a place of curiosity and not frustration or anger when I was asking.
Speaker: I was just like, hey, like I've noticed culturally, like, you know, here is what our studio looks like.
Speaker: Here's what our play base looks like.
Speaker: Here's what our characters, like the product look like.
Speaker: And I just ask questions around like, you know, how do we diversify that or like, you know, how do we get more
Speaker: women or people of color or LGBTQIA folks into positions of leadership?
Speaker: What are the pathways to support people who are from different backgrounds?
Speaker: And these are all questions that are just, I'm just wondering, what is the plan for this?
Speaker: And a lot of times with DEI work, one of the things that I've discovered is if
Speaker: decisions and policies are not made intentionally to include people they will unintentionally exclude people like that's just a product of you know you know people have unconscious bias people don't mean ill by it but it just happens and so in having these conversations it kind of generates that oh yeah like you know maybe we should address some of these things and we should address the fact that you know sometimes like you know
Speaker: you know, sometimes people don't feel included in meetings or they don't feel empowered to speak up.
Speaker: Like, how do we address this?
Speaker: And I will say one of the things about the Bundy Diversity Committee was it actually came out of just a conversation I was having with someone who was
Speaker: I was very fortunate.
Speaker: It was someone that was very supportive of my work, was familiar with my background, but was in a position to also basically sponsor that idea and say, hey, like, yeah, we should talk about this.
Speaker: Like, we should have access to leadership and, like, have those conversations.
Speaker: And that's kind of where it started.
Speaker: And then one of the cool things about Bungie is it does have a lot of...
Speaker: grassroots like what we call ERGs, employee resource groups.
Speaker: So there's women, there's like, you know, the LGBTQIA.
Speaker: At the time when I was there, there was people of color, but I believe now that's being split into like, you know, more specific.
Speaker: So there's blacks, there's blacks at Bungie, there's Asians.
Speaker: And one of the things that we did was we tapped into those communities and we're like, hey, you already have like the communities.
Speaker: You know what, like how your day-to-day work is being affected.
Speaker: Like how to, like, you know, come and talk about these things.
Speaker: And, you know,
Speaker: And that's kind of how the committee started.
Speaker: We just wanted to make a space that was inclusive and could make a positive impact on folks at the studio and then by extension in the community.
Speaker: And then because of the presence that Bungie had then like at the industry as a whole.
Speaker: So it was a lot of just like little steps, like a lot of conversations just to make sure people had that like frame of mind to be able to do that.
Speaker: And yeah, it was amazing.
Speaker: it was pretty well received so I was very glad that like it's evolved into the things that it has now it's now become a lot of like I'm not there anymore but it's good to see like the like outcomes of that there's been a lot more conversations about inclusion and justice and like supporting people and it's just been really cool just to see this spread up all over the industry as well.
Speaker: Yeah no I mean
Speaker: It's so nice to finally see these conversations happening and people actually talking about being more inclusive and actually putting in the work to, you know, not just have it as an idea that people talk once and then never really action it,
Speaker: So it's really nice to see, especially with, you know, Xbox, Bungie, even PlayStation to a degree, like there's just so many big brands that are really invested in this space, which I guess for me as a person of color myself, it's really, really inspiring.
Speaker: And it's one of those things where it makes me feel good working in this industry, knowing that I'm working for brands that are putting back into people.
Speaker: Yeah, I think fundamentally people are at the heart of this.
Speaker: Like you are doing this for the people and you can't make your product without people.
Speaker: So you need to really take care of your people first.
Speaker: And I think that's something that I think a lot of different industries need to really hone in on and really focus on because, you know, people matter.
Speaker: And I think that's the most important thing at the end of the day is, like I said earlier, you know, you need to keep your people happy.
Speaker: You need to look after them.
Speaker: And if they're happy, they produce good work.
Speaker: And so it's a win win for everyone.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So in terms of, I guess, the work you've done in this space beyond the Bungie work that you've done, what else have you done?
Speaker: Because I know I've seen you started the What a Game Dev Looks Like initiative on Twitter or X now.
Speaker: Has that been something that was a result of your work at Bungie?
Speaker: Like, how did that all come about?
Speaker: How did you start working in Bungie?
Speaker: DEI outside of a brand or a company?
Speaker: Yeah, so I think DEI was always very important to me.
Speaker: I exist at the intersection of multiple marginalizations.
Speaker: And I think the way that it started before what a game dev looks like, it was a lot of different things.
Speaker: It was like
Speaker: asking questions.
Speaker: It was supporting people, like cheerleading other people and amplifying other people from marginalized backgrounds.
Speaker: It can look like mentoring.
Speaker: It can look like just like, you know, if we're on social media, just like giving people space and a voice.
Speaker: But the thing I think that really became
Speaker: the turning point for what a game dev looks like was just the fact that this was something that resonated with so many people.
Speaker: And I'll talk a little bit more about what
Speaker: it actually is in a minute, but it was one of those things where I just was like, Hey, like I need this kind of for myself.
Speaker: And it turned out that like thousands of other people also like, you know, found like, you know, could relate to that and could find themselves in a similar position.
Speaker: So it was just a really great way to just kind of connect and celebrate with each other.
Speaker: But, um,
Speaker: Yeah, just for context, what a game dev looks like was born out of the Game Developers Conference in 2019.
Speaker: So GDC is the largest games industry event in the world.
Speaker: There are tens of thousands of people who attend.
Speaker: It is very, very big.
Speaker: And I happened to be speaking at it that year.
Speaker: So when you attend, you get your, like, there are different people.
Speaker: badges that you get.
Speaker: So if you're a speaker, you go in the speaker badge line.
Speaker: And I was in the line to get my badge.
Speaker: And I was struck by three separate security guards in that line.
Speaker: And, you know, they told me I was in the wrong line.
Speaker: They told me this is the line for speakers.
Speaker: And I said, yes, I know because I'm a speaker.
Speaker: Like, you know, I can, you know, I understand what this line is for and I know why I'm in it.
Speaker: And I
Speaker: It struck me as a really interesting case that, like, you know, it was 2019 at the time.
Speaker: The Bundy Diversity Committee was founded in 2017.
Speaker: It was actually in my first year entering the games industry.
Speaker: So that was a thing.
Speaker: But I'd kind of been, like, in this headspace for a few years.
Speaker: like a couple of years now.
Speaker: And it was weird to think about like, do I just not look like a game developer?
Speaker: Do you think like that's why you think I'm in the wrong line?
Speaker: Like, you know, like, you know, when microaggressions happened, you can't help but wonder like, you know, what is it about me that did this?
Speaker: And
Speaker: It also turned out that there were other women, there were other people of color, there were other people whose first language was not English who were also stopped.
Speaker: And yeah, it was just a very, yes, it wasn't a singular event.
Speaker: And I just happened to like write some tweets.
Speaker: There were tweets at the time.
Speaker: I think they'd be posted now.
Speaker: But I was just like, this really weird thing happened to me.
Speaker: Like, you know, like what's up with this?
Speaker: And yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then I ended up making what a game dev looks like because initially that was just a reminder for myself, hey, like this is my industry.
Speaker: I belong in this industry.
Speaker: And it was just a way for and all I did was I said, here is what I look like.
Speaker: You know, this is my face.
Speaker: This is what the face of the industry is like.
Speaker: Like, you know, it is not just all like, you know, old white dudes like they're the industry is diverse and look at us like this is what a game dev looks like.
Speaker: And that's where it came from.
Speaker: it was just one of those things where people just kind of used it as this really great like way to empower and amplify each other which I never expected I was just like this is just me doing this thing like if you if everyone else wants to join in you are free to like take a picture of yourself and
Speaker: and also be part of this.
Speaker: And it's been this way that people have navigated the industry.
Speaker: Like, you know, people have found each other through this.
Speaker: People have like collaborated on projects together because of this, which has been very cool.
Speaker: A lot of people who thought they were the only one of their particular background or like they've never found anyone else that
Speaker: look like them like could connect and they could celebrate like who they were so it just was this great it was just such an outpouring of positivity and support that came out of it that i ended up bringing it back in 2022 because that was the next in-person gdc that we had um and then we also ran it earlier this year in march yeah
Speaker: That's so inspiring.
Speaker: I remember seeing it, I think it was definitely in 2022, because I don't think I was as active in this space in 2019.
Speaker: But I saw that and I saw all these different types of people talking about the work and, you know, showing that, you know, it's not just, like you said, all white dudes who are working in games and game dev.
Speaker: And I think it's so, like you said, you know, it's so important to show this experience
Speaker: is diversity really and and i guess that's why representation is so important as well is because like you said it was it must have been such a shock to have um the security guards kind of stop you and like
Speaker: you're not meant to be here you know it's one of those things it's like yeah but I work in this space I yeah this is what I do so I think that's been just so inspiring to see and obviously to become almost a movement of sorts which is really powerful um you know obviously with something like that they usually has some there's usually some undertones of challenges and obstacles then you
Speaker: might have some negative connotations to it.
Speaker: Have you ever come across that sort of thing with what a game dev looks like?
Speaker: Surprisingly, not really.
Speaker: And this is the interesting thing about what a game dev looks like.
Speaker: It's entirely democratized.
Speaker: People, because it's on social media, people can choose who they want to amplify.
Speaker: They can choose who they want to like or retweet or repost.
Speaker: And it's and so people will select who they want to like who other people they want to give space to and
Speaker: no one just and there is just no space for detractors um the people that have challenged it generally do not get amplified which has been just really interesting i've i'm i am surprised that this happens on social media like and so it it was kind of just like it was a really cool thing where even people who were like you know not the like the target audience what a game dev looks like and to be clear like what when i say what a game dev looks like it's like
Speaker: anyone can participate in it.
Speaker: I do not like a gay people
Speaker: like can use this hashtag or not.
Speaker: But the interesting thing is even people who are like what we would consider like, you know, in the majority for like a stereotypical, like, you know, says how white male came to have like, they would use their platforms to amplify other people.
Speaker: They would, and there were conversations around like, you know, do we participate in this or not?
Speaker: Like, is this for us?
Speaker: And just like having the respect of like,
Speaker: to have that introspection to understand that like was like I really like I I was very appreciative of that like again I like anyone is free to use it but it was also a thing where the community itself was like regulated itself in this way that turned out to be incredibly positive so yeah so what do you think um obviously it's it's impactful in so many ways but
Speaker: Why do you think initiatives like this are really important and we should all be invested in work that these different organizations, movements and all of that are doing?
Speaker: Why is it important, do you think?
Speaker: To me, I feel like this is something I would have wanted when I was younger, when I was entering the industry.
Speaker: The first time I ever saw anyone that looked at myself in a video game was when Street Fighter 2 came out and there was Chun-Li and that was the first Asian female character I'd ever seen in my life.
Speaker: I was just like, oh my god, this is amazing.
Speaker: I could not get over this.
Speaker: And I think people often...
Speaker: underestimate the value of seeing yourself in the media that you love, in seeing like your peers, like in having someone that you like there is a real like there is a connection that you can have just in virtue of who you are and what your experiences are and what your backgrounds are.
Speaker: And it's been and so having something like this or having a space where people from underrepresented groups can connect is so powerful because
Speaker: you it's just one of those times where you can just kind of like I don't know I like to say there is a like there is a mask that we all wear and there are times when you can just take that mask off you don't you don't have to talk about like why diversity is important you do like everyone already knows that it is in that conversation like that sort of stuff and I think the
Speaker: reason that like things like this are necessary also is I want to I'm I know that I'm not going to be in the this industry forever like eventually I will have to stop and retire but I want to be part of
Speaker: the people who like lay the path for the future.
Speaker: Like I want future game developers to have an easier time like you know getting like the DEI support that they need.
Speaker: I want games to I just want games themselves to be more diverse.
Speaker: I want people to feel safe in their workplaces regardless of who they are.
Speaker: And if what I'm doing right now is
Speaker: basically planting the seeds for like there's that you know the people you may plant the seeds for a tree under whose shade you will never sit like if that's what i'm doing it is still worth it like i don't have to personally benefit from this i think collectively as an industry we do benefit from things like this um but it's not a personal thing it's just like how do we have what do i like what do what can i do to make future generations of games and game developers better like
Speaker: That is so nice to hear.
Speaker: And I think that's why I really wanted to talk with you, because that's why this podcast exists.
Speaker: It's trying to pave the way to make life easier for the future generation who want to work in games and who want to have careers in creative pursuits and all of that.
Speaker: I think that it's so important that, you know,
Speaker: we exist today to build a better world for the next generation.
Speaker: I've always really, really had that almost like as my motto in life.
Speaker: And so I really, really appreciate the work that you do.
Speaker: And I think it's so important as well for, I guess, from an Asian background as well to see the work that you're doing.
Speaker: And you're almost that representation, even for someone like me, who's been in the industry for a while, because watching the way you
Speaker: work and what you do and all the accolades you're getting it just makes me feel like this is this is great the the you know the next uh young asian girl from say malaysia where i'm from um can see this and go she did that i i can now do this too like there's nothing stopping me now i can work in games if i want to i can do all of the things that i'm passionate about if i want to you know i think that's such an important
Speaker: I guess way to see the world as well.
Speaker: Yeah, I think there's something very interesting about just
Speaker: being empowered to like, you know, you don't have to ask for permission to like enter the games industry because you can, you just can like, you know, you can just do the thing.
Speaker: And I, and just being able to do that, like already lowers so many barriers to entry into games.
Speaker: Just knowing that there are people like you who can do things in the games industry and can make the games that you love or,
Speaker: seeing yourself in a game is just a really amazing like way of just being like, you know, you can just like, it's a really great way of just being able to see how you can fit.
Speaker: And for a lot of people who come from underrepresented backgrounds, like,
Speaker: Games have been a really important meeting because sometimes there are other places outside of games, like in your real life, where you don't feel like you fit.
Speaker: And so just having a space where you can belong and you know you belong is just so important because it might be your only safe space.
Speaker: It might be the place where you can really be yourself and the mask comes off.
Speaker: And it's really important just to
Speaker: Like safety is just so important and just having places to do that and empowering other people to feel safe is I think one of the most impactful things you can do as humans.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker: And I think that's the beauty of games is that it is a space that everyone belongs because we're creating characters that sometimes aren't even human and we're giving characters
Speaker: people, there's this opportunity to just be whomever they choose to be and be however they choose to be, essentially.
Speaker: And I think that leads perfectly into my next question, which is, you know, obviously it's a bit more personal on the being an Asian, I guess,
Speaker: person of color working in games have you ever faced any any difficulties or any obstacles in terms of being someone from an asian background working in games especially working in the western world i think a lot of what i've come across has been like i'm very lucky it's nothing super egregious but it still exists right so yeah a lot of it just is the like microaggression level you know
Speaker: there are stereotypes around like Asian women for example, there are stereotypes around people who have who look certain ways or have certain backgrounds or whatever and a lot of what like the challenges have been is just like inviting people to overcome that like you know how about you don't just think I'm going to be quiet and take notes in your meeting or whatever or or like whatever it is um and oh and so the
Speaker: challenges really are around reframing how we understand who works in games and just and just say hey like you know I there are these stereotypes that exist I need you to realize that there are like you have these unconscious biases I need to and part of why I do the work that I do is because I think like
Speaker: unless they're addressed and unless you actually call them out they are by definition unconscious so um and there you know there are kind ways of doing that just make me feel aware of that work so yeah I think that's part of it um and I think the other part is like just being like it takes a lot of energy to you know speak up all the time and you know
Speaker: to you know know when when to spend like your social capital like you know if you you don't want to be like that person because over time people just you know stop paying attention you just become noise but you also want to make sure that what you're saying is being heard and it's being received and it's being acted upon so there is this interesting like mental math thing that happens when you're like okay do i speak up now do i not and
Speaker: And I think sometimes it's like, if you're not sure, like, you know, erring on the side of like, yeah, maybe I should say something is not a bad idea because like, you don't know who else is going to benefit from this.
Speaker: Like there might be someone who hasn't spoken up that you are actually inadvertently helping.
Speaker: So it's sometimes it's just overcoming that as well.
Speaker: Like for me personally, I'm actually really introverted.
Speaker: So it's hard sometimes for me to talk about stuff.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: yeah no i think that's um that's that's so you know again like i said inspiring in a way because
Speaker: you're almost having to come out of your comfort zone to ask these questions and just put these little nuggets of thoughts into people's minds to get them thinking about these things.
Speaker: So I think it's really important that you're doing this work.
Speaker: And I think that, you know, again, I am super grateful for it, especially because I've learned so much from you and just watching all the work you've done.
Speaker: And it's definitely helped me carve out what I want to do in games as well.
Speaker: so now we've spoken a lot about you know some heavy topics um so i want to end the the podcast with some fun questions so um i hope you don't mind me asking but um obviously you're in games do you have an all-time favorite game oh my gosh this is such a hard question i feel like there i have so i do have a top 10 list but i can narrow it down to maybe like
Speaker: a couple so I'm generally with you because I don't have a favorite so yeah you can you can tell me maybe top five yeah so I will say um the secret of monkey island is up there so the liquor starts game um that was I think the game that got me super into like yeah I want to actually make games since I'm just like I want to consume this like media I want to be part of this it was just
Speaker: so funny and clever and you know as a player like I was a kid when it came out and I was just like this is so cool like you know like look at all these cool things I can do like you know like just the interaction between like the art and the environments and like clicking on like it's a point-and-click adventure game so just like understanding how all those pieces fit together was just super mind-blowing for me so that's definitely up there um I will say Super Mario World is also up there like that was
Speaker: just the way that you get to explore the world was just so fascinating to me.
Speaker: But I also have a very, very soft spot for like indie games.
Speaker: So interestingly, like, so Spiritfarer is up there for me.
Speaker: I think Spiritfarer is something that's very
Speaker: special for just like games as catharsis and games as therapy so i love it very much um and i know interestingly the one that popped into my head right now as we're talking about this is um is papers please so i don't know if that just like i think i really enjoy it because like it scratches that project manager itch because i'm doing a lot of different tasks in it um
Speaker: But yeah, it's, I really like that.
Speaker: I like, you know, that's a really good game with lots of like good moral choices in it.
Speaker: So I think that'll, it'll say it scratches that itch.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I just thought it was just a super cool like thing that came out.
Speaker: I was just like, what is happening here?
Speaker: no i i um it was one of my first indie titles i think that i was introduced to and i was just so blown away i was like what is this game what is it trying to make me do and why is it making me do this thing um no that that's a great list i think all of those games are great are you looking forward to the next assassin's creed game i am i'm very excited for it especially because i
Speaker: I know people that worked on this game now and are from that background and it's just really great just to see like how much it's like really kind of resonated with them and they're just like yeah like you know this was like you know here are these aspects of it I don't want to do spoilers or anything but you know there are these parts of it that really resonated with like how their actual experience was which I was like yeah that's super cool like
Speaker: You know, I want all of us to have that.
Speaker: I want all of us to be able to resonate with games in a way where it's like, this is reflective of my experience.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, that's amazing.
Speaker: Well, finally, last question.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: What's next for you?
Speaker: It can be, you know, whether it's work-wise, whether it's just, you know, on a personal side, is there any projects that you're working on that you can talk about or yeah.
Speaker: What's, what's next for JC?
Speaker: I think I want to actually say,
Speaker: do less if that's even possible.
Speaker: Like, I think I'm at a good spot where I can, like, I want to focus on my career and, you know, I am still, like, working at a game studio and we have to still make games.
Speaker: So there's that part of it.
Speaker: But I also, I've been doing a lot more mentoring lately and I think this is the time where it's, like, this is less about me and this is more about, like,
Speaker: I want to empower future generations of game developers.
Speaker: There are a lot of incredibly talented people from marginalized backgrounds who are up and coming in this industry.
Speaker: And I want to be able to make sure that they are supported and they are amplified and they can be recognized in the way that I was fortunate enough to be.
Speaker: like if I retire eventually and I go away then like that's cool but if there are like multiple people who can carry on that work then that's actually for the better so yeah it's yeah so I just want to make sure that people have the spaces to do that and they can make like collectively we're all making the industry brighter
Speaker: That's so awesome.
Speaker: So in terms of doing less, you're still going to be doing more essentially.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We'll get it.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Well, awesome.
Speaker: Thank you so much.
Speaker: Can you please tell like our listeners, obviously this will be the first episode, so who knows how many listeners there are, but can you please share with us where can, where can people find you?
Speaker: How can they see your work or connect with you?
Speaker: So I am strangely still on social media.
Speaker: I can be found at most places at like at Dr. J.C.
Speaker: Lau, so D-R-J-C-L-A-U.
Speaker: And I am that across multiple social platforms.
Speaker: So you should be able to find me there.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much, JC.
Speaker: I really, really enjoyed chatting with you.
Speaker: It was just so amazing to hear your journey and all the work that you've done and also hearing about your favorite games.
Speaker: That's definitely something that I think a lot of people will resonate with a lot of people, especially, you know, Assassin's Creed and Spiritfarer and all of that.
Speaker: So thank you so much for helping make this conversation just so enjoyable.
Speaker: I really appreciated it.
Speaker: Yeah, thank you for having me.
Speaker: It was lovely being here.
Speaker: Oh, awesome.
Speaker: It was absolutely my pleasure and an honor definitely talking with you.
Speaker: That's it for this week's episode.
Speaker: I'm Ms.
Speaker: Dears Geek and that was the wonderful Dr. JC Lau.
Speaker: Thanks so much for tuning in and don't forget to stay across our socials at EquivoxGG or get in contact at hello at Equivox.gg.
Speaker: See you next time on Equivox Unplugged.
