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POLARIZED | Danny Shelton (Founder of 3ABN)
1.3k Plays9 months ago
Polarized is a series that explores the divide. Our goal is to see if we can find common ground despite our differences, both on the “right” and “left."
In episode 5, we sit down with Danny Shelton—founder of 3ABN.
Have a question you want us to discuss? Comment? Maybe you disagree with something we said? Either way, we'd love to hear from you! Shoot us a DM on Instagram or an email at: seekingwhattheysought@gmail.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Personal Connections
00:00:05
Speaker
Hey, everyone. Welcome to Seeking What They Sought. I'm Sean Lenhoff, and I'm here with Anthony and Jesse. And we've also got a special guest with us today, ah Mr. Danny Shelton. And we're excited to have him. He's the founder of 3ABN, former president of 3ABN, and we're just ah so thrilled to have him on here to continue our discussion um on Polarized and kind of get into that. So, Danny, welcome to the show. We're glad to have you here. Thank you. It's great to be here.
00:00:35
Speaker
So ah yeah, this is why I'm excited for because I grew up, I don't know Jesse and Anthony how you feel about this, but I grew up with 3ABN in the house alongside other you know Christian programming ah like Hope Channel and other things, amazing facts. And so you know we got a few years back to interview Doug Batchelor.
00:00:54
Speaker
um you know For me, that was one that was a bit surreal and then also having you know different people like Randy Roberts on. Those are those are people that, as an Adventist growing up, a little kid, I saw Randy Roberts on my screen. I saw Doug Batchelor. And of course, we've got Danny Shelton and 3ABN. That was just something i I have a core memory of. And so, Danny, it's it's really cool to have you on ah just for us to have this chance to talk a bit about Yeah, what what you've done with your life and and with this ministry of 3ABN. And of course, it's still going strong. ah You see a big online presence as well as TV as well. So I know that there's still a lot going on with that with that history. But Jesse, Anthony, do you... Do you have memories? Full disclosure, sean yeah Sean is a bit biased because his father actually interviewed you, Danny, back yeah back in the day. And so i so Sean, for for various reasons, we're actually gonna have to ask you to step off the podcast because- Yeah, too biased. Yeah, maybe. No, it yeah, 40 years ago, it's kind of, while my dad was on, it is written with with an old- That's wild. Like the old guard of avantism, like George Vandemann, if you know that name- George Vandemann.
00:02:04
Speaker
You're probably 50 years or older, but that's a legend. A legend was was George Vannemann. So my dad worked at his room and interviewed Danny and his daughter. So, but anyways, yeah. So Danny, go ahead, go ahead. i'm I'm curious,
Danny's Personal and Faith Journey
00:02:20
Speaker
Danny. So you started Threibian. What was the heart behind starting it, if you can, in in at least an abbreviated way?
00:02:28
Speaker
Okay. I actually, I was a carpenter by trade, got out of high school and, uh, got married early. It was barely 19 years old and surgery is in the family. And, but it always part-time gospel singer. And, um, so we had, uh, pastor Lynn Hall, uh, come to our, um, town and Al Conrad and little West Frankfurt, Illinois, where we still are today. And so when I got married, I had a wife who was Pentecostal and through.
00:02:55
Speaker
ah Your dad, thank you, Sean, that she really learned the truth. He was an incredible teacher. And so I knew we wouldn't be keep a guy like that down in small towns very long. I knew he was going to end up, which he did, doing great things. But so we did part-time gospel singing. Then in 1980, that was about 1973, 1982, my wife and my daughter was going into town. We lived out of town and they were in a car wreck. Someone ran a stop sign.
00:03:24
Speaker
And my wife was killed and that accident instantly. So my daughter and I, uh, we decided we could either can, she was 11 years old. We could either go forward or we could quit. What were we going to do? So, um, I stayed up. She had was was thrown through the windshield and so she had broken arms and cuts and bruises and swollen and.
00:03:45
Speaker
So during the night I said, honey, we're going to have to have someone sing for your mom's funeral because her mother had a beautiful voice. Who should we get? And she said, well, daddy, after what we talked all night, I think I want to sing. Mom and Jesus would want me to sing and mama would want me to sing. Well, I was wondering if she could even make it to the funeral. at Well, at that time I was the young carpenter. I loved playing ball. It didn't care if it was basketball in the winter, if it's summer, I was busy all the time. I loved that. So the last thing I,
00:04:14
Speaker
You know, I was an Adventist by name. I was very, um, if, if we had tournaments, we had Shelton construction, fast-pitch softball. So if the sundown was on Friday night at eight 12, my brother and I would play till eight 11 and we'd check herself out of the game. Then if our team one Saturday evening, the game started again, say at eight 15, we would get in our ball suits and drive out to the ball diamond
Founding and Growth of 3ABN
00:04:40
Speaker
and wait till exactly one minute after sundown and insert herself back So you could say I was an Adventist. nice But after this happened, and I said, Lord, I want that relationship that my daughter has with you, because I couldn't have sang for a mother's funeral. I didn't feel like it. I didn't want to sing. And yet, while I had been giving her scriptures, 1 Peter 5, 7, casting all your cares on him, for he cares for you. John 10, 10, the thief cometh not but for to steal, kill and destroy. But Jesus says, I'm come to give you life and give it more abundantly.
00:05:15
Speaker
You know, the 23rd Psalms, the Lord is my shepherd. So all night, cause I didn't want her to think that God had anything to do with her mother dying. Cause that was her favorite name and her whole vocabulary was mom. So I quit carpentry work shortly after that we had been part time gospel singing. So I started producing records for people. We live about three hours hours from Nashville.
00:05:38
Speaker
So we did a record for her, then we started producing. Back then it was records, guys, like the big, yeah big records. and So we started producing records for people, got into gospel music, started traveling to different churches. And some of these big networks like TBN, we went out in California, they had started and you have Youth for Christ Action, you have Dove Broadcasting in North Carolina, all these TVs that were asking us and we were giving our testimony that we just, you know, don't put this in and ah blame of the death and the destruction on the Lord, but on the devil. And so, which was contrary to what a lot of these networks, well, I began to say, Lord, where are we as 70 Adventists in the media? There's 1984. There was not one, one television station on earth, on earth that had 24 seven Adventist programs, not even a local television station.
00:06:34
Speaker
So I said, Lord, why, if we're the heads, we feel like we're the heads from what we've been taught as should we be the heads and not the tails. And so I would complain about this off and then 1984, uh, November, I was trying to go to sleep and then I got this impression. I want you to build a television station that will reach the world with an undiluted three angels messages. One would counteract the counterfeit now.
00:07:00
Speaker
Um, Anthony and Jeff, and jes of course I know Sean already already knows some, but for me, that was foreign because I had no idea what an undiluted three angels messages. I didn't know anything about counteract the counterfeit, but that impression was so strong that the Lord wanted me to step out to build a television station. Though I've had no money to do it. No education, high school education, no education and communications. I finally said, Lord, I'll go forward in two conditions.
00:07:28
Speaker
One is I won't beg for money because all these TV stations we were on, we're begging for my old little grandma. We're going to have your $5 and they had $50,000 rings on each finger. You know, I'm exaggerating, but similar to that. So I said, I'll never beg for money and I'll never borrow money.
00:07:45
Speaker
So the second was easy cause I didn't have any credit. I couldn't borrow hardly enough to buy a new car, let Lona of mine for TV station. So, uh, literally I began to tell people and over the next few days, people came out of the woodworks, many non Adventist said, we'll help you. And to this day, it's the faith ministry early 40, we went on the air on 86.
00:08:09
Speaker
Uh, full-time we built television networks until about three years ago, we were the maybe four years ago, the second largest owner of TV stations in America. We still even have a radio network around the world of almost 400 radio stations. We still own, I think 77 or so TV stations, but we're on thousands of cable networks and we have nine full-time channels, including The, the French, the English, of course, we have dare to dream our minority network. We have a praise him network, all music channel. We have full-time preaching. We have a kid's time network. We have a French and full-time Russian, but anyway, God has blessed and I've seen it's been a faith ministry. So we have no idea where our money's coming from. And as you can, we have probably around the world, a couple of hundred employees or more because we have studios in Australia and the Philippines.
00:09:03
Speaker
We have a place in New Guinea, so we have to sell it Russia, we have the largest Protestant facility in all the ex-Soviet Union and about 50 full-time employees there. And the gospel is going to potentially 150 million people in their own language throughout the ex-Soviet Union. Now I say all that to give God the credit.
00:09:23
Speaker
And I say, you know, I take greater credit for the bad things and I give God credit for the good things. So God uses it in spite of us. So for your viewers, we continue to go forward. And about five or six years ago, I asked Greg and Jill Morricone that had been here for nearly 20 years since they were in their early twenties to if they would be do the president, the day-to-day president and vice president. So I'm still a director on the board. I'm still the founder.
00:09:50
Speaker
And I'm involved. I'm not retired, but I just don't deal with employees every day and lawsuits what it because whether you're the church or whether you're whatever, if you're in out in the open and you're in public and, you know, you're in that fish tank, somebody's going to find reason, you know, they don't like something. Wow. Danny, I'm i'm curious.
Church Divides and Danny's Views on Reform
00:10:09
Speaker
You, sorry, Jesse. Uh, you, you, you had said that you were lying in bed one night and you just had an overwhelming impression. Was this a dream? Did you hear a voice from the heavens?
00:10:19
Speaker
What what was that like? I was wide awake. I had been watching actually another network out in California and they were talking about after the rapture how.
00:10:31
Speaker
um All the you know Peter and James and John all these people would come to that and for seven years and they would preach to the people and I had heard so much what I call baloney it was like That is just when I'd go these different Christian stations. They were always Everything was the name at claimant, you know, and I had trouble with all of that I was around the faith healers and I would say well if you have that talent, why don't you just go in the hospital and and clear everybody out? right everybody you know Send us so much money. And I was so sick of all that counterfeit. I didn't even want to go because behind the stage, I would hear people seeing, drinking things, saying things, talking about things that have nothing to do with Christianity. And I'm like, there's just so much poniness in this.
00:11:16
Speaker
Why isn't there a television station that you don't have to be a star for number one to be on? You just have to have a testimony. And number two, that's telling the truth. And that's when the Lord really hit me with this. So I said, I have no idea what that means. The undiluted three in those messages, I'm only recently figuring that out. But I tried to spiritize 820 to the loan to the testimony if they speak not according to this.
00:11:41
Speaker
word, there's no light in them. So I said, well, if there were a television station and that we're reaching the world with Adventist message or what we call the Bible message, would that be from the Lord or the devil? Well, simply that was easy for me or that'd be of the Lord. So I said, okay, Lord, here I am. You know, send me in God has blessed everything we have paid for. We've never, we don't have to know it. We have no long-term debt yet. We still don't have much money in the bank and it costs millions and millions of years to of dollars a year, we're on nine full-time satellites that literally encompass planet Earth. So anywhere on planet Earth, if you want to watch 3ABN, you can.
00:12:22
Speaker
So the question I think that is ah that's on everyone's minds is, how many private jets do you... I'm just kidding. no ah the the ah It's really cool. I mean, I remember i remember growing up watching 3ABN. I think my mom would sometimes put it on like before as we're getting ready for church and we'd go. I remember getting the box that that could run 3ABN and everything. That was really cool.
00:12:46
Speaker
um it's it it's a It's been, you said, almost 40 years of 3ABN existing. The world has shifted and changed so much in the last really even just 10 years. I mean, we talked about technology and all that stuff, but just cultural issues and all that stuff. and One of the things that has become really clear to us has always been an issue, but I think it's it's become more of a thing now um that there is a a strong divide in the church between um generally conservative and liberal.
00:13:21
Speaker
That's not only those those sides, but um one of the things one of the reasons I would say that I see it more now than maybe previously is because um there have been some really massive issues starting with women's ordination that has kind of gained a lot of traction, and then you start to talk about, ah I mean, there's always been a worship style battle in the church. but like um But yeah, and then you get women's ordination. Now you're talking about um LGBTQ plus issues. um Now we have conferences and unions who are doing things that are different than what the GC does. um So there's a lot of a lot of um now even structural division. it's not It's not even, it's not just like, oh yeah, these people prefer this, these people prefer this. It was actually like structurally ingrained division now.
00:14:11
Speaker
um Looking at the church from your time in it, what do you, um what's what's your impression of of its state currently? Well, I just did a sermon two weeks ago at camp meeting entitled, we are not the true church. I took everyone's breath and then I put dot dot dot yet. So we're not the true church. So I said, if Jesus came back today,
00:14:38
Speaker
He would not come back and find a triumphant, victorious church. He would find a church militant. He wouldn't find a church triumphant. There are too many issues in the church. And before that we can help everybody else, we have to do a house cleaning ourselves. And that's simply resubmitting, committing our lives to the Lord. I believe we're going through a shaking right now. And I believe that the remnant church, we are i I said my sermon, how dare us call ourselves the remnant church? We just had such spiritual arrogance in my mind that we think of all the churches. So people say we are the remnant church. I said, well, are you talking about the conference or are you talking about church buildings? Are you talking about people? When you say we're the remnant church, what makes up the church? I think the first question comes to my little mind is, well, the church is people.
00:15:34
Speaker
In other words, you could take any building, including our general conference and sell it. And it could be the biggest nightclub and theater in the world. And it's no longer nothing about it. Spiritual. You take all of her churches, take out the seats at night and have dances and drink and make it a, you know, whatever. So the church is the people. And so.
00:15:54
Speaker
I believe that the Adventist Church is the closest thing that I know of theologically to the true church. But we as members, and I say we in pointing hands and fingers back to myself, we need to do some real housecleaning and get our eyes off of because the the early church, if I can say this,
00:16:16
Speaker
the early church that we're trying to say we're the remnant, the piece of the mirror-like image of the true church, the early church changed the world. The trouble now is the world has changed us. It's interesting because the like what you just said about we're not the remnant church is not a traditionally conservative um viewpoint. Other things that I've heard you say might strike more as a more traditionally conservative viewpoint. like understanding that those terms are not necessary they they're not all encompassing. you know Everyone might fall more conservative or liberal. We all have our nuances to what we believe and and um some might not fit in those boxes. right But if if you had to say that there was a way that you tend to lean, or if you see yourself entirely different than those those categories, like how would you categorize your your heart and your viewpoints in all of that?
00:17:15
Speaker
Well, politically speaking, you know, we talk about church theologically, uh, and political, we maybe hit both of them, but politically speaking, um, I tell people the only party I'm, I'm the join to is the Jesus party because it's the only one that will last forever. Now, all of us have leanings to, am I more like the Democrats or am I more like the Republicans? And so some people say I'm right leaning.
00:17:44
Speaker
You know, and and all I know is, is I go back to the simple days. I go back when the 10 commandments were taught and people like C.D. Brooks and all those others, we stuck straight to the commandments. We didn't try to dissect them and say, well, maybe Paul didn't know what he was talking about. And maybe since the word homosexual didn't get in the Bible until 1946, that maybe that doesn't really, you know, in the translations. So all I know is that the seventh commandment, whether it's adultery or homosexuality, so I'm back to the 10 commandments. And so I told the Lord when it first started that the one thing that I would say that people, I've been accused of everything. Some of it I may be guilty of and some of it not. But when you're in a fishbowl, that's going to happen. But the one thing no one has ever accused us of yet.
00:18:32
Speaker
And after people hearing this, they've probably started accusing us as though we haven't gone to the left or the right. In other words, our message that we've started preaching in 1986 when we first went on the air is still the same message. Joe Cruz would still fit today on our platform, on our programming. C.D. Brooks would still be great for our programming today. But if he were now out on most of the ah and among many Adventist, you know, avenues, social media, he'd be canceled because he deals with things like abortion and same sex marriage and, and, you know, things that we don't like to talk to. He dealt what we might call political. But I'm amazed that so what I say is now I can't be Democrat because I don't believe the Democrats brought in the same sex marriage through Barack Obama. And the the abortion came back.
00:19:29
Speaker
through, you know, 1973, that was ah all Democratic led. But the the the Republicans now have all compromised with it too. So we can't just say, oh, well, the Democrats, you know, did this. No, because now, especially today in this coming election, these are Republicans who are so against you know, abortion now saying, well, maybe 16 weeks or well, maybe up to 24. Well, they're saying that not having anything to do with principle, but what's going to get me the most votes. And if we say we're against the abortion, we'll lose. So I see what I see happening in the churches. We have the left who's so concentrated on the right. There's the 2025 project.
00:20:12
Speaker
You know, it's talking about that we're going to get Sunday laws passed. We're going to soon as Donald Trump or whomever, if he gets in, we're going to do this Sunday law. All the while, there the back door of the church is open. So the homosexuals, the LGBTQ thing, the the abortion, all the things, the the lawlessness things are coming in the back doors of churches because we're so busy.
00:20:36
Speaker
waiting for a national Sunday law. Now, please don't take this wrong and think that I'm an apostate or I've done anything, but when you talk about the Sunday law, we have been preaching the Sunday law for much longer than Noah preached 120 years about the Ark. Now, you have to think about that for a second.
00:20:58
Speaker
All right, so I didn't say I don't believe it, but when we say, oh, the Sunday law, I hear these preachers. And even now, especially podcasts and some of the the um online preachers, man, the Sunday law we got to get. And I'm like, there's so much generations have come and gone and the Sunday law has not been in effect. So why do we put so much emphasis on it?
00:21:21
Speaker
So then we have people on the right who want to put all the emphasis on the left. And so it's literally a political divide within our church. So that's why I tell people when I, when I talk about it, they say, we shouldn't talk about politics. I say, well, it hasn't helped bring us together by being silent. So why don't we at least get it out there and then somebody doesn't like it. Okay. Tell me why you don't like it. Let's talk. Come let us reason together.
00:21:49
Speaker
So politically, ah yeah, I probably would lean if I just went there. I lean more to the right and the fact that I just don't support some of the things that I see going, ah see happening that our church members jump in. For instance, DEI, social justice, while all that sounds good, some of it is is leading us totally. ah It's not going to happen on this earth. It's not supposed to happen. And people look at it.
00:22:17
Speaker
ah If I got time, I'll give you a quick example. Okay. Somebody just talked to me the other day and they said, well, you know, you don't, you don't believe in equity, diversity, equity, inclusion. I said, well, I do. But as far as inclusion, Jesus would be canceled culture today. If you look at Jesus on earth in heaven says broad and white as the road to destruction, narrow and few be there that enter in. So he's not including everybody.
00:22:45
Speaker
he's sure not doing equity in the fact that, well, let's see, there's not going to be enough of this race there. So you don't get to go and I'm going to bring you to even things out. You know, so I said, many white people, you can't be there. I said, I said, well, hey, look, if that really works, if equity is good, I love playing basketball. I played basketball every all my life, but I'm only about five eight with my shoes on. So, but I play and, you know, I've got this video out where I challenged Charles Barkley and I Play this you know shoot three pointers and i played i love playing so i said how about this equity really works let's do this i wonder i should be able to go to the nba and say look.
00:23:27
Speaker
There's very, how many short, old white people are there that's charged in the NBA? Well, since there's not any, then you got to take me. You got to make me. We got to make things equitable. We got to bring things. You can't discriminate against me because I'm short and white and can't jump and jumping I'm 73 years old. Right? So some of this stuff just goes to extremes.
00:23:49
Speaker
And so what I say is is is that's not the answer for everything. Some of it's been more, well, it's important. Social justice is very important. We, as Seventh Avenue Christians, should be the heads not to tell when it comes to social justice. Don't expect the government to do it. My problem I have is the churches, they all want the government and people who lean to the left. Well, the government should be doing this and the government. No, how about the church? When you're talking about, oh, you know, the right thing, we can't have these illegal immigrants coming in. We got to stop them and the left is saying, well, as Christians, we should have them. So I ask them.
00:24:27
Speaker
I asked one pastor's wife recently, she said, well, we got to have these open borders. We have to take, I said, who's we? For instance, I said, I know you have three daughters, but you live in a beautiful home. Do you have keys to your house? ah Well, yes. I said, why? Why don't you just open the doors? And there's a lot of homeless people in your area. Why don't you just let them come in? Probably only one out of 100 is a rapist. So it's not that.
00:24:54
Speaker
big a chance, so not that many criminals. Well, a few of them may bring in drugs, but do you have keys to your car? Well, why don't you, if so, you're wanting the government to do, put all the the responsibility of the Christian on the government. The government can help everybody, and they should, that they could, but let's concentrate on Seventh-day Adventist Christians. What are we doing for the homeless? What are we doing for those that that that are not getting equal treatment. Those are the the the low-hanging fruit, as they call them. That's the church's responsibility. And this way, we can present Jesus to them to a lost and dying world. So, only so much can we do in marching and doing all this stuff with the government. If we think it's going to be fair, it's never going to be fair. It's going to be worse. Should we stand up before? Yes, we should stand up. But,
00:25:47
Speaker
Remember that it's our responsibility as Christians to... did Is the brother our keeper? Yes. but but Are we our brother's keeper? Yes. So, I believe we need to be talking about social justice. We need to be, of course, support diversity, equity where we can. Let's do these things, but don't put it all on the government. Remember, it's the church's responsibility to show Jesus to the lost and dying world.
00:26:11
Speaker
So what I hear, I totally hear what you're saying. And in many ways I agree with you that as soon as we throw stuff on the government, you know, it, it's really ah shirking responsibility as us saying, that well, okay, we, yeah, we want it to happen, but it's almost like I'm a good person for wanting it, but I don't want to take part in it myself personally. I just want other people to take care of it. Right. Which is, which is, uh, it's, um, why am I blanking on the term?
00:26:36
Speaker
But it's it's just like it's just saying that i'm I'm more moral than I might be. But the the other side of it, though, that I guess I consistently hear from more conservative sides is like we're against social justice and we're against DEI. And it's like, okay, but as you've just stated, you're not actually, bigger you're against the extremes of that.
Dialogue on Divisive Issues Within the Church
00:26:55
Speaker
And one of the things that i I sense is widening divisions in our churches is that we talk like that.
00:27:03
Speaker
like I'm against social justice and I'm against DEI, when actually it's like, well, from hearing you, your views are way more nuanced than that. And and you actually support those ideas and those um those hopes for for our world and and the Christian church to actually do those things. But when you say I'm against DEI or I'm against social justice, then it like it actually inflames the other side that hears that.
00:27:30
Speaker
And I'm not trying to say that you do that um exclusively or that it's, it's an exclusively, like it's, I'm not trying to pick on you, I guess is my point, but more more so just saying like, cause I've also heard in your sermons, like you, you you will talk, you will touch both sides of the aisle. Like you'll say, um here's what I disagree with on the left, but also look at the right. And so, and I'm glad that you do that. But I guess what are your thoughts on that? Because when the way we use language and the way we talk about things impacts how and how the other side responds to us as well. and And for sure, I also agree, we're not fully responsible for everybody else's responses to us. But, you know, I guess what do you think of that language that we use and how it impacts other people? I've had to, let me put it this way, the tremendous opportunity because my wife Ivana is black. And so we've been married a number of years. I've known her 14 years, going on 15 years.
00:28:27
Speaker
And so we have about every conversation you can have about race. We've had in the years we've been married and there's nothing. So we've got kids, right? She has had two sons that are my sons that are black. I have two daughters that are white.
00:28:45
Speaker
and one of them now is married to a black so she's getting ready to have birth to my first grandchild which will be black this this uh this week actually wow and so then Jason our son he's married to uh married and so he his wife's doing about three weeks So talk about a mixed family in a mixed arena my wife from new york i'm from the country i'm a country boy call a little bit of heck or hillbilly or redneck whatever call it from there she. she said it not often she
00:29:18
Speaker
She's too, it's hobnobbing. She sang with Whitney Houston, Luther Vandross. She sang on Saturday Night Live for several years. She does commercials even today. There's the Verizon commercials worldwide and the LG commercials, NFL, TikTok. Everybody's using her. Just the two of us. We can make it if we try. When you hear that, that's her.
00:29:39
Speaker
saying it on television and radio. wow So and we come from totally, she has seven golden platinum records, which she's so humble, she won't even let me hang them up in her house, let alone anywhere else. She says, that's my whole life. I'm not worried about that thing. And for Jesus is my life.
00:29:55
Speaker
But I said all that to say we come from such different worlds that we talk about it. Isn't it amazing? Don't you think God has a sense of humor to put up my area where I came from? No blacks were even allowed when I was a kid. No blacks, only 9,000 people, black people weren't allowed to come to West Frankfort, Illinois or to live there. So I'm raised and I'm an adult before I ever even meet a black person.
00:30:20
Speaker
You know, she's more in a black world and not as much with what we get together. And we find, you know what we find? We're all the same and that God loves us each and every one. And we're all children of the most high God, but culture is playing a huge.
00:30:36
Speaker
It's being used by the devil to separate because we've been able to, as a family, it's amazing. We get together and I can honestly tell you with the boys, with the girls, their brothers, their sisters, they take up for each other. We literally are one. And that's the way we should be at the church. But you know what is taken? A lot of discussions and a lot of communications and a lot of being willing to compromise from our culture, not the Bible, but sometimes step back and look at things. I could say more, but maybe that's... Yeah. Well, yeah that that actually brings up a ah ah great point for me that that popped in my mind, which was, as you mentioned, you've spent years speaking with your wife, going through back and forth, understanding her space in this very intimate, personal way.
00:31:25
Speaker
um where you've both been vulnerable with each other, you've learned from each other. And that is the challenge today, is creating spaces where our church feels safe to be vulnerable and intimate with each other. When we come from such different things, whether it's cultural, political, um even, I know that you mentioned um you know, not compromising the Bible. And I know that's something that you've you've mentioned multiple times um on 3abn as well just in, you know, many sermons that you've you've preached. And I know our goal today isn't to get into the necessarily to get into the theological weeds of one specific topic. We're all aware here that there's there's divide on on these things. And we we might even disagree about where
00:32:14
Speaker
the primary source of that disagreement comes from. I know that, for instance, with LGBTQ, there is sometimes the argument that that is exclusively a cultural ah ah preset. like that's That's where I'm coming from, is the reason I'm motivated to maybe push LGBTQ rights or um the idea of affirming ah that community. It's exclusively from culture where, you know, we've we've had conversations, Danny, with people where where they they take a biblical approach trying to state that they're reasoning. Of course, this is called you know affirming theology versus accepted theology. ah We've had conversations on both sides where we've we've talked to people on, again, quote, unquote, the right or the left on those issues.
00:33:01
Speaker
and it appears to be that it's not just from culture. So there is some complexity to these issues where um it's not as simple as saying, they're only championing this because this is what the world is doing, but they're they're also looking at the text in a different way. That's that's always been a challenge. We have whatever itch issue it is. um We can read the same passage in the and the Bible or we can study Jesus as a character, or even God as a character, and come to two different conclusions about what He is calling me and you to do, both personally, as a church corporately, and that's where we get into this challenge right of figuring out what to do. So I wanted to to mention that briefly, Danny, um but but going back to what I said is,
00:33:48
Speaker
how do we create this space, like you and your wife have, where whether it's culturally, maybe it is theological, right? Because if we're honest, there are um passages that take a long time to figure out or or dig deep into and to understand better, and there are times we disagree.
00:34:06
Speaker
And um you know this is we did a series on you know even just Adventist beliefs, what is an Adventist? And we've had professors, pastors, other leaders come on and and have two different conclusions about where the emphasis should be. And so so maybe, again, my question is, how do we create that safe,
00:34:27
Speaker
space where maybe I disagree with you on something, Danny. And it's not about maybe me just reacting to you from a distance and being maybe upset with the way you said something, but saying, how do we get to where we're just talking together? And in good faith,
00:34:43
Speaker
can say, you know what, we love each other. We want to ask the spirit into this conversation. We're going to open the Bible together. We're going to eat together. It just feels like that space isn't here right now. It feels like there's platforms where we are polarized. So maybe we should ask the question, not how we're going to get together, but what separates us. Okay. Yeah. So what separates us is from far back way before I was born, you have black churches and black conferences. You have Hispanic churches, Hispanic, and I can see that language wise, but then you have white churches in the same town. You've got black churches over here. You have white churches over here. So how are you ever going to get to understand each other? You go, Oh man, that black music, that rhythm was going, those people are all got their hands up and they're over here.
00:35:35
Speaker
Black people send men and white people, they're dead. There's nothing you can't, you can't get an amen out of no matter how hard you try. They're all sitting there, you know, and I see that myself. I always like, I enjoy preaching in the black church and I tell them that the first thing I say when I get up to the black church.
00:35:53
Speaker
every time. You know what? This is so great because it's the only time I ever get to get up to preach and say good afternoon rather than good morning. If I say good afternoon, at a black church, I might not get up to 12, 15 or 12 because they're there in the morning. They're they're going to stay all day, especially when you go in the city. White church, 12 o'clock when we quit and 12, 15, one preacher told me, I went all the way to Wisconsin.
00:36:19
Speaker
And I said, at what time, and here's 11.30 and I'm not up yet. I said, what time you, we're on the roster. What time pastor should we, do you normally get out 12? He said, I said, okay. I had driven eight hours up there and I said, I'm going to be here for 30 minutes. Sermon, I'm not up yet. So I'm getting ready to go up and he says, Brother Shelton, if the Holy Spirit's impressing you to to preach to 12.15, that'll be fine.
00:36:46
Speaker
And I said, oh, well, thank you. And not necessarily I do what he said, but I'm okay. Well, thank you. As I walk up, he grabs my coattail. Brother Shelton, I said, yeah. And he said, it's the Holy Spirit's impressing you to speak to 1230. I said, yes. He said, please make sure that it's the Holy Spirit because our free people go home at 1215.
00:37:09
Speaker
there it's all over with. So the difference is the trouble I want to go back to is that if you don't understand each other and you don't understand your culture then there's no way that you can see all your critical because this is a way Ellen White says don't have drums. If you have drums she's used Indiana. If you've got drums then you're going to help basically.
00:37:31
Speaker
Well, over here, you know, on this side, oh, well, I, I, I get in trouble because I'm, my wife says I'm a button pusher and I guess maybe I am. I love to hear people and see that kind of been that way all my life. I told a friend of mine, I guess I get worse with age. He said, no, I've known you since kindergarten. You always been that way. You're always outspoken and opinionated.
00:37:51
Speaker
But what happens is, so then I go to the other side, and so they tell me, oh, classical music. So I say, listen, I've been in this business years and years and years. Now, if people want classical music, it's okay, but why do our university and colleges for years, they don't want to accept music that you might like or I might like. And I say, I can tell you this from 35, 36 years been on the air or more, never once.
00:38:18
Speaker
Has anyone called in into our prayer line and said because Mozart or Beethoven's been played, I gave my heart to Jesus. I never was with you, never but that's when i havehel say he touched me. Oh, he touched me or, you know,
00:38:35
Speaker
Well, I had a fellowship, even the old ones, I mean, but some of the newer songs, people call in and say, I was listening to Ryan Day sing, Revan sing, and I gave my heart to Jesus because so we try to make this, you know, our own college. Let's do this. No. So how can I set?
00:38:55
Speaker
and criticize somebody else and their church because they're happy. I would rather go into a place that's happy than a place that looks like they've been sucking on limits. So we don't we won't accept each other because we're too critical and the only way we can do it is to start fellowshipping more together.
00:39:13
Speaker
Because if we don't, my wife and I would have never got together. When I met her 15 years ago, she was working in Barack Obama's ah campaign as a volunteer to get him elected as president.
00:39:27
Speaker
When he got elected in 2008, she was all the rest of black America and 47% of white people voted for him. It was a historic time. It was an incredible time, but all of a sudden 2012 comes and now he says, I'm, I um've switched my stance on marriage. So no longer am I with the biblical marriage. I'm going to promote same sex marriage all the way to the Supreme court and make it law of the land. Now she had a struggle.
00:39:57
Speaker
because she says, man, I can't vote for anyone else. I want to vote for him. But yet that's not what I believe, and that's not what the Bible. She struggled with this for months and months and months. Finally, she said the Lord gave me an epiphany. Am am I going to serve my culture, my ethnicity, or am I going to serve God? So she didn't vote for him. And she said, if it hadn't been for you and me talking to you, because when she was like, oh, um so I would bring to these questions. and like So you're goingnna you don't care if he's kind bring he's telling you that he's going to bring laws that are going to trample the law of God and you as an Adventist who teaches keeping all the Ten Commandments, so you're going to go ahead and vote for him knowing that. So I tell people today, so if Donald Trump says he's going to run on a national Sunday law, you're going to go ahead and vote for him? Now why would you do that?
00:40:50
Speaker
You know, of course, if someone tells you in advance, we're going to do this. So, but it's so hard. Our culture is one way or the other, or we lean to this. And that's why she and I both today, we consider ourselves independent and we may have leanings, but we, we're not right now. I shouldn't tell this, but I've only voted a few times in the last 25 years.
00:41:16
Speaker
Because when it came right down to it, I couldn't really support either candidate. So I just, it's hard for us to vote and it's hard not to. People say, well, people died so you can vote. And I say, but they also died so I can have the choice not to. If I don't really want to, but I can't just report. So that's the struggle, but I try to answer your question.
00:41:38
Speaker
We're not going to get together and I mean, we won't come in agreement unless we start communicating together and are able to talk rather than to sit on one side of the table and you said over here, hey, let's go out to this. Let's go to dinner.
00:41:53
Speaker
Let's go somewhere. Let's do something together. Let's have a vest for service where everybody's in and we'll just do different kinds of wheelchair list you have to get to know people so the devil has separated us and I think long as we're separated like this I don't see how it which seems we're only getting farther apart, but I noticed with our family is getting broader and and from both sides people that weren't happy Yvonne married me in the beginning because I'm white or whatever and then people on the other side not so happy like wait a minute what's going on now everybody's there's nobody's against it and she says you know your family is so incredibly wonderful and I said so is yours and things that we wouldn't have seen 15 years ago but it's all happened because we had to get together talk things out and so uh that's a tough one
00:42:44
Speaker
I'm curious, Danny, from what you're saying, you know you're you're painting, to me, at least what I'm hearing you saying, correct me if I'm wrong, you're painting a really beautiful, compelling image of family and two different perspectives and cultures coming together and then over time through listening, empathy, understanding, and lots of
Love, Forgiveness, and Leadership Challenges
00:43:03
Speaker
time.
00:43:03
Speaker
Talking with one another having relationship knowing one another you begin to understand each other and maybe there's some compromise on one side and some shifting and some understanding and then you come to a better. um You come to more more relationship and love one another and then you're able to move forward and i guess i'm curious.
00:43:22
Speaker
you know, how do we, what what happens when we come together like you're saying and then, but we see things vastly differently. like but Like for example, you know, the example that you brought up about, you know, the different types of conferences, you know, two different perspectives might come together and have different perspectives ah about why that issue is the way it is. We've interviewed people um who have given an account of history that have kind of shared with us, oh, you know, regional conferences only exist because the black people who wanted to make conferences at the beginning, they went to the white conferences and asked for permission and they were denied and so they made their own conferences.
00:44:01
Speaker
And so using that data, one perspective might say, well, the reason that he's different there's this division was created because of an injustice that took place, was created because of you know a racial insensitivity. and so But then the other perspective might say, well well, we just need to forget all that and move forward. And then the other perspective might say, well, that's really difficult. That's really hard. it's hard to you know And so there's there's a back and forth. how do we And that's just an example, right? There are many other different issues right that we can name.
00:44:30
Speaker
How do we move forward when there, it seems like there are these moments where we get, there's like an impasse, right? And again, all these hot button issues, where you know, whether we want to talk about any of the ones you've mentioned today, there are these impasse moments where it's like, well, we see things fundamentally differently it seems, or perhaps like, you know, we don't really agree on on on on what the Bible says or something. How do we yeah move forward then? Well, the devil knows.
00:45:00
Speaker
To be a Seventh-day Adventist, you have to have a different type of personality than everybody else. Oh, say more about that. Well, think about it, because you think you're right about everything. Like of all the churches on planet Earth, we have the truth. You don't have the truth. So not everybody's got the personality that's willing to stand up to people saying, you go to church on Saturday? Well, that's ridiculous. Whatever you They're like, oh, I don't want to, I'm not, but you know, Adventist more, we're like, Hey, well, of course we go to church. So that's what the 10 commandments say. So you, it, I find that most Adventists have a ah different personality than a lot of people do. And so we have to be, you know, look at that for, first of all, and what the devil has done is what I find out that the biggest divider is people being judgmental. And so people, we have no patience.
00:45:56
Speaker
and And what embarrasses me on on social media or on television, not for my sake, I've been this long enough. I i'd say this, I don't mean this unkindly, but I don't really care what people think about me because it doesn't affect my life and what I'm doing. Because if I feel like I'm doing what's right to the Lord, I don't care if somebody's like, oh, he thinks so and so or he believes that's all right between me and God, I can take all of that.
00:46:24
Speaker
But not everybody can, so I think we are so critical on Facebook, you'll see ah Adventists arguing with Adventists. and being really ugly and unkind to people. We may be talking about people who are talking about my sermon and somebody, their people will come on non-adventist and they'll say, well, I have such and such and people will chew them out. You know, well, what do you know? You're not even Adventist if they mention it. And I'm like, how can we be so ugly? How can we be so mean? So it seems to me that
00:46:58
Speaker
For years, when I was growing up, we say, all these other churches talk about is love. All they want to talk about is the love of Jesus. Well, we believe in the love of Jesus, but that's fluff. weve got to get into this twenty you know We got to get into the We got to get into you know Daniel, Revelation. We Adventists, we got to get into this. And so I think we've left we've left out the love.
00:47:22
Speaker
Uh, we've left out the love. I heard someone today saying his Adventist pastor who pastored nine years, he has a PhD and was at Andrews left the church and is no longer Seventh Day Adventist. And one of his biggest complaints was is that we don't teach enough love and that we don't show enough love among our people. And so we don't show forgiveness. And so, um, 20 years ago, I went through a divorce.
00:47:51
Speaker
And nobody really knows about that divorce, except those of us involved a handful. And we've had Mark Finley and we brought a few people in because we were, there was no hope channel back then. There was no, you know, social media. So it was a big deal because three ABN was a big deal. So we go through and so.
00:48:11
Speaker
You know, I felt I had my grounds and, and, you know, she, there's always two sides to ever. So I'm not here to justify that. But my point is only people close up new people within the church leaders and others.
00:48:26
Speaker
So because I felt they needed to know because position we're in. But there are people, every sermon I ever preach, they go on and say, what in the world is he doing? He's been married before and divorced twice or he's whatever. right Today I heard I was divorced four times. I mean, i where that comes from and what I'm saying, and they say it like they know, and of course it's not true, but I'm saying we are so judgmental of each other that is, yeah I'm just, to me, it it makes me sick to my stomach, not for me, but for non-adventists who are watching, who are listening, who want to be a part because we're so separated. And now that's why maybe I'm a button pusher. I do get up and I talk about the left, you know, and then I talk about the right and I try to be a balance and end up saying, you know what, we shouldn't be, our church should not be be influenced by politics.
00:49:22
Speaker
that, as I said earlier, today's church is is is changed by politics. If you go back to 30, 40 years ago, your C.D. Brooks, you go there it is written, you know, to George Vandemann, to all of these guys. So I say, did the Adventist church, we're in existence for 120, 30 years. We all believe the same thing, but suddenly in the last 15 or 20 years,
00:49:46
Speaker
everybody believes differently oh well romans didn't mean what it really says about lgbtq and abortions not really whatever even though we've killed 63 million babies more than the catholic church killed in 1200 years of the dark ages and we call them the apostate And yet we here in America, Judeo-Christian nation has killed 63 million babies. And yet we as Adventists want to say, well, but we should, a woman should have a choice. Well, yeah, should have a choice to go kill you too. Right. But let's, let's talk about that for a second. There will be results. There will be results for that. So these are things that are so, they they're they're out here. And and for me,
00:50:28
Speaker
we've changed. So did the Bible change? Have we just gotten smarter in the last 20, 30 years. Why have we changed? We used to be in unity when it came to all keeping all 10 of God's commandments. If we have choice, well, what about then maybe what's wrong with going to church church Sunday? I should do that. Why do we think is that Venice? We should go to church Saturday when if I can have choice about abortion or LGBTQ, well, why not that same freedom? And why should I go to church Saturday?
00:50:58
Speaker
Yeah, but let's let's talk about that because there's there's complexities that come with all of these these issues you've brought up that I think they they come across as way more simple than they end up being. And I and i know you know that you've probably talked to people ah like about this, so I want to hear your thoughts on this. But but say abortion, for instance. like I ah definitely ah hold to the the the viewpoint that we have become way too open to using abortion as a as a birth control method. right However, um there's there's a massive amount of Christians who want to say abortion should be illegal at any time, at any point, at any place, and that should be enforced by a law. And that comes from a Judeo-Christian ethic, right?
00:51:50
Speaker
But the the reality is you listen to a lot of stories of people who have had to have abortions and medically induced or medical medical situations or something like that. And the amount of distress that they have to go through as they're in a state where like abortion is just illegal, straight up illegal.
00:52:07
Speaker
But they're like, I'm in this situation where I do not want to abort my child. That is absolutely not what I want. However, I'm in a situation where this is the only medically viable way for this to go about where I survive, where I'm there for my family moving forward. yeah like That's the only way that that's possible.
00:52:24
Speaker
and So like that's a nuance that isn't present when we just say, well, we've killed 63 million babies. or it's like yeah like There's definitely abuse of that, and that should be part of the Christian conversation, but there's also there's also the fact that we're we're in a broken world, and that has to be addressed too. and We don't have perfect solutions to that. i mean It's similar too. like i mean if you want to If you want to take in the LGBTQ plus conversation, I definitely think that we're in a space where we are We are in danger of saying to ourselves that really anything that anybody decides at any point in their life is perfectly reasonable. There's a danger there, for sure. But at the same time, like you go back and you say, well, we're all about biblical marriage. And it's like, well, the people that we celebrate in the Bible, like David and Jacob and Abraham, like they all had multiple wives, and we call them men of faith.
00:53:16
Speaker
And I'm not trying to say that anything goes, I'm just saying that we live in a complex world where there's brokenness and there's there's realities that maybe aren't the ideal, ideal or there's there's realities that we have seen a certain way in culture, but they may not be morally as wrong as we thought previously, or there's certain situations where it's okay, versus it's like it's complex. And it's not to say that we're trying to compromise Scripture, it just means that like we're trying to deal with a complex world.
00:53:44
Speaker
And so I think that's one of the things that starts to frustrate me, especially about the conservative side, because ah definitely on the liberal side, there's like a, yeah, kind of whatever you want as a human, just go for it. It's like, well, no, there there has to be a recognition that humans are not just, like humanism says that humans humans are are inherently good.
00:54:02
Speaker
But I don't see that. i don't I don't see that to be true. So I'm definitely not in that camp. But at the same time, I think conservatives, what I sense is that there's a desire to just make the world super simple and and make God's commands apply in ways that not even God hardcore um ah stamped down on in certain times, in certain places. Like if if if we're going to have a culture where we say we're all about biblical values, what most of the people we celebrate in the Bible have values that are vastly different than ours, and God didn't, God never called him out on it. And so it's like, that's kind of, I think that the struggle that I have when I hear you bring up abortion or when I hear you bring up the LGBTQ plus conversation, not because I don't agree that there are issues there,
00:54:44
Speaker
that need to be addressed, but because it seems like it's like, well, this is black and white, and the Bible says it this way, and you even alluded earlier, going back to a simpler time where we didn't try and like we didn't try and and make something say something that it didn't say. It's like, well, yeah, that's simpler, but that's not necessarily more realistic to the world, if that makes sense. so I'm just curious about your thoughts on that. Yeah. Good. Let's go back then to the abortion, um because the devil doesn't care which side of the boat we fall out of just long as we fall out.
00:55:12
Speaker
So we're talking about balance. Now you're saying those on the right are saying, you know, we should, these laws should be strict. No, no, no, no, no. That's political. Now those on the right, what we have to deal with is their government has a right to do whatever they want.
00:55:29
Speaker
When the government says abortion is OK, I'm not going to stand up against that and fight against that. They have the freedom to do what they want. They say, well, now it's down to the states. I'm not going to fight about that. The government, but what we have to keep in mind.
00:55:45
Speaker
Where do we as Seventh-day Adventists stand as what the government do change us? So I'm not for people on, you know, you're saying those on the right said, no, this should be legislated. This should be done. No, no, no, no. Our thing is, according to the Bible, we should do everything that we can to encourage people that abortion is murder. Now, there are exceptions to every rule, whether it be health problems whether it be you know that I'm not here to judge I don't think any of us can the life of the mother but in general we're talking small percentages versus just people well hey um I'm I'm in third year of college and I can't afford to have a baby or I got eight kids already most of abortions are for that but I think it is simpler
00:56:37
Speaker
And I hate to use that term because it's it it is complex, but as Adventist Christians, that we support anyone who's had an abortion. In other words, if we have an opportunity to discourage them and say, look, let us place this baby as a church again, that's where we, because it's us loving people, it's us.
00:56:59
Speaker
rather than to get involved so much in what the government does and vote for this party because they're wanting to force this law and the other isn't and they're against it. Again, that we're getting sidetracked from our view as a baby because we I just had my um a daughter and daughter-in-law stand up at camp meeting and turn sideways because they're both ready to have these babies. They know they're real life babies inside of them and we we have people who are more concerned about if you killed an animal or a dog than you are if you give abortions people will just
00:57:34
Speaker
get on the internet, oh, I can't believe they mistreated this animal, but they're pro-abortion and it's like, wait a minute, these are real human lives. So we can't, we don't have all the answers. Now people did say to me, well, I don't think we can legislate moral laws. People say that to me all the time. One person said recently, I don't want to live in a country that legislates moral laws. And I said, I don't want to live in a country that doesn't legislate moral laws.
00:58:04
Speaker
Think about this because if not, let's say I like your car. And so Jesse, I like your car. So I'm just going to go get your car. And there's nothing if there's no moral law that says I can't steal it. I can take it. oh if If I choose to go kill you, I get mad at you. i say Okay. Well, I'm going to go kill him.
00:58:23
Speaker
You know, I'm going to go do whatever I, of course, the last six commandments are man's duty to man and every government, civilized government of the world enforces moral laws. And so for us to say just loosely having us like, well, though, especially on the left, why we can't force moral laws, you know, I say, well,
00:58:45
Speaker
You really need to think about that now. Should we do it? I'm not going to try, as a Christian, it's not my responsibility, Anthony, to try to force somebody you shouldn't have a you can't have an abortion. No, all I have to do is I should be witnessing to these people and encouraging them that, look, the Lord, this is the creator you know creation of of God and that that this baby, you know,
00:59:12
Speaker
can spend eternity with with Jesus, and every life is important. So I should be encouraging him, but I have to stay out of the, you know, I don't do the LGBT and the people, even the people, the touchy subject march with Black Lives Matter.
00:59:28
Speaker
And I said at the time and people got angry at me, I said, I'm all for black lives. But when you see the organization and I read about it and showed that they say we're Marxist and we're anti-family, we're against the nuclear family, we don't believe in God. When you do all of that, but yet to jump out and run and march with them, they're saying, you know,
00:59:50
Speaker
pigs in a blanket frying like bacon and we're Adventists and we're Christians. No, there's other ways to do it. We had conference presidents, black and white, who went out and marched with them. So we tend to jump with this culture. No, we we can't deal with these things like the world does. I don't know if that helps you, but even the LGBTQ thing, I have family, I have friends that are LGBTQ and they know I love them.
01:00:15
Speaker
And ah we we we don't allow that to affect our relationship. We get together, we eat together, we do things together. They know where I stand, but we love them. And so what we do is we love each other and hopefully.
01:00:29
Speaker
You know, but as far as, you know, laws that they can't do, I don't think it's fair to them that you pass laws that says, no, you can't live together or you can't get any, you know, the the rights that a husband or wife would get. I'm not against that. That's not my, that's the government. And sometimes we just have to not get so involved in the government, kind of stick to what is we as Seventh-day Adventists and what did we teach about life and what did we teach about sexuality.
01:00:58
Speaker
but love people. That's fair. and and I think I understand that understand your your perspective on that better with with you having said that.
Open Dialogue and Theological Views
01:01:05
Speaker
um and but but It's interesting because ah i mean you've preached you preached a whole sermon on on like LGBTQ plus and and like how we should deal with it. You actually have recently, if I remember correctly, you are trying to send out um a, I don't remember the title of it, but a booklet out to, I believe it's every church in America, not just every Adventist church. I got one. Every, yeah, that book. We're sending it, there are, I didn't know this, there are 70,000 Baptist churches
01:01:38
Speaker
in America, 70,000. So we sent one to each pastor only in the last three to four weeks. We did bulk mail, so they didn't get out there for at least a week. And the last week and a half, I just counted Friday, and the last week and a half, 46 Baptist pastors have written us and said, we really love this book. we Can we get a case of 200 to give to all of our members?
01:02:06
Speaker
And so I have a letter on my desk. I could read you one of the Baptist ministers from New York said you may be, you know, different denomination than me, but we're all spiritually struggling with these same things in our church. So I would like to get these books to pass out and it's a guide to help us. So within those books, we.
01:02:29
Speaker
established the 10th commandment law of God. Because if you don't, then you can't stand up and say, well, abortion's wrong or whatever. So some of these pastors are like, wow, you know, we loosely say the 10 commandments were nailed to the cross, but now we understand if they were, then you've got what's your beef. Let everybody do what they want. So we put Adventist beliefs or biblical beliefs, and I believe we're going to see hundreds and hundreds of these Baptist pastors And when I wrote the book with Shelly Quinn, Ten Commandments Twice Removed, Sean in 2005, we had over 40 non-adventist pastors who became Sabbath keepers. We had several whole churches that literally converted, and of course a lot of them left, but the pastors converted their churches. So the printed word, you know, is amazing. And so I'm i'
01:03:20
Speaker
nut You brought that up. I forgot where we were going with them, but yeah, that's the book. sure that we I was going to say, Jesse, really quick too. um Like I said earlier, we don't have like we'd probably be here for 10 hours if we dissected our but like deconstructed every piece of abortion, LGBTQ, or any other piece. And and we did get into that a little bit with the nuance of, for instance, abortion when we talk about medical. and And you know that's that's a very long conversation. you know and And even just the very concept of of we abide by the Ten Commandments, right? when we we can We can take both sides of the church
01:04:01
Speaker
that that believe we abide by the Ten Commandments. It's ah it's a guiding principle for us. and And following the ways of God, we see it manifested through Jesus. yeah ah Jesus further clarifies, right? For instance, Sabbath, we see Jesus um take the the legalistic view of the Pharisees lens of Sabbath and and transform our understanding of what Sabbath is really about, right? And we see that throughout Scripture. We see Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount, of course, transform the the thought pattern of what are these laws about? what is What does it mean to follow the ways of God? And so we still do live in a time where we're challenged by this issue of
01:04:40
Speaker
Having our minds transformed to understand that it's deeper sometimes than we think it is. So when when when God's laws are here, you know, is is, for instance, Sabbath just about keeping the right day versus ah versus God created and designed me for rest and for communion with Him.
01:04:57
Speaker
any any set special time aside for that. um there's There's a different mindset there, right? Versus me going up to someone that's a Sunday keeper and saying, you're worshiping the wrong day, and you're gonna go to hell if you don't keep the right day. I would personally disagree with that approach. Versus the depth that Jesus demonstrates of what Sabbath is about, right? In in the same way, um we have disagreements and and far divides about um so many different things. I know we've mentioned LGBTQ, but, Danny, there are people, not just culturally, right? There there are
01:05:34
Speaker
ah I could go as far to say there are Adventist leaders in our church, um scholars and professors, teachers, pastors, that hold on to, again, the affirming theology with the presupposition that there is scriptural um there there is enough in Scripture to allow for space um for a thermi affirming theology. So again, I'm simply presenting the case to you that we live in a space where that group is growing. There's there's a group that that is saying, hey, there there is biblical space for understanding. So you mentioned the Seventh Commandment.
01:06:15
Speaker
And there would be a biblical group or or people that would profess to say they believe in the Bible to say that it wouldn't be adultery, it wouldn't be sexual perversion, to have a monogamous, consensual, same-sex relationship. And so that again, we've had a ah long conversation with with people before about this issue.
01:06:35
Speaker
I'm wondering with with you, Danny, my my question isn't to maybe dissect the theological, um all the pieces there. I know that that would take a long time, but you mentioned how you would sit you know and eat dinner with your um LGBTQ family members or friends, people that you'd you'd love and just and and you'd be honest and say, hey, we're different in this way. I disagree with that lifestyle, whatever it may be. what Would you be open to, just out of curiosity, if there was um an author of a book or a pastor or some sort of church leader or some influencer that would want to sit down with you and discuss those things. If they held ah that affirming view, would would you be open to that type of discussion and and sit down with them and and wrestle with Scripture with them? or as Or is there a certain place where you'd say, I draw the line on, like this isn't helpful, I i can't see from that point of view so we can't discuss, we can't move forward together.
01:07:33
Speaker
um with this idea that we're both Bible-believing Adventists and hold these two different viewpoints. oh No, I'm not near there yet. In other words, and I'm happy to sit down to talk to anyone. There may be a time I go by the people's attitude when we're talking. If you've got somebody that's minded or they're argumentative or they you know have an attitude You, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still, but if you also have somebody who's willing to be open and say, okay, here's what I believe, and I'm still open to death that I love doing. Um, my wife can tell you, cause we do that for hours with friends.
01:08:15
Speaker
Just quickly on the books that I wrote, for instance, I wrote a book on the Sabbath. What I did was as I took, I tell people, I didn't really write the book. I get the credit. I have eight, eight non Adventist friends, right? So I have eight of them. So I say to them, Hey, look, I'm writing a book on the Sabbath. Can I develop relationships? We sing together. We go eat together. We've done things together over the years.
01:08:40
Speaker
So I fellowship with them, getting to know them. one one One's Pentecostal, one's Charismatic, one's Methodist. And so I said, I'm writing this little booklet and on the Sabbath, could you help me? I want to send you what I'm doing. So if you see me, maybe I'm not making it clear. Maybe I'm, you know, using the wrong text. Could you, would you mind? Because we're I feel like we're friends enough. Help me and correct me.
01:09:07
Speaker
And all eight of them said, oh, sure, we'll help you. So I sent it out. All eight of them sent it back and said, well, you didn't address this. You didn't say this. What about that? And I said, oh, thank you so much. So I reworded it, re-sent it. I went back. The time I got through three of those men, this was over a period of two or three months, the Baptist, um I mean, the charismatic pastor joined the church.
01:09:33
Speaker
And later, ah Molly Steenson, who's my vice president, oh it was her ah the wife of this man, this pastor. So they both became Adventists. The ah Rick Odle assembly of God ah minister became Adventists. But from um then to Methodist.
01:09:51
Speaker
ah He became ah gone to high school with him all his life. He actually joined the Adventist Church. But what I did is not argue with them. It's like they were helping me. We had good enough relationship. And so the Baptist pastor said, you got me. I never really understood this. So I recently had an assembly of God pastor. In fact, he's an internationally known singer.
01:10:14
Speaker
called me and said, man, I'm reading your book. And, you know, because i so what I find out, I said all that to say is if we can dialogue in a good, friendly way, I'm happy to do that because I've seen great results into different books I wrote that I write that I get. I always get some non-adventist to help me and say, hey, can you help me? But I couldn't do that if we didn't have a good relationship or if it's someone who's going to be argumentative.
01:10:41
Speaker
So yes, if we are somebody that says, yeah, I'd love to sit down and talk, and I'm happy to do that. but But do you think that there's space long-term for those two views to be Like, for instance, you look at ah issues of of worship style, and there's more people now who say, yeah, I agree to disagree on that, and you know I prefer my classical music, or I prefer my gospel music, or I prefer my you know more contemporary style, and um all of those can exist within the church and still be... Equally valid. Yeah, equally valid and follow Jesus wanting to wanting to um
01:11:24
Speaker
follow Jesus well together. um Do you think there's space on things like um the LGBTQ plus question for a very varying approach to that? um Not even trying to say for black and white A and B, but just for varied perspectives on that within the church. Well,
01:11:46
Speaker
my My opinion, I don't know that there is, as far as if we want to preach the Sabbath, if we as Seventh-day Adventists want to preach that Saturday's the Sabbath, and we're not willing to give on that, how are we able to give on these other things? Because I know people who, in fact, I have some non-adventist friends that says, I can't believe because they're evangelicals. I can't believe your Adventists make such a big deal on the Sabbath that you accept murder of children, innocent babies, and LGBTQ homosexual lifestyles. So it it it it makes us look hypocritical, and we are. If we're at the point, say, well, okay, we accept this,
01:12:32
Speaker
Well, suddenly I'm just picking and choose the 10 commandments or so my thing is if we accept ever get to the point that our church accepts LGBTQ as part of it or abortion now all of every sins forgiven but the difference is on these sins if for LGBTQ it's no difference in adultery the difference is they don't believe it's a sin so I god There are some things God can't do and He cannot forgive sins that haven't been repented of. So you can have adultery over and over, you can steal somebody, you can murder people. and we look at You brought up earlier Bible characters, some of their marriages, divorces, some of their murders, some of the things they did, but they were all forgiven.
01:13:16
Speaker
But what the LGBTQ is saying is, coming in demanding, you accept me the way I am and I don't have to ask forgiveness from dissent. Yet there's no Alcoholics Club anywhere that comes in and says, look, we want to be baptized and we believe in alcohol and we're alcoholics and you all accept us.
01:13:36
Speaker
And we're going to say, no, no, no, no. The prostitutes come in. If there's a group of prostitutes and say, look, hey, we're all prostitutes and we want to join your church. ah We want to be baptized, you know, or somebody comes in and says, you know, yeah, I believe in pedophilia, but it's just my choice. And I want to be your, your Sabbath school teacher.
01:13:57
Speaker
We're not going to compromise on that. We're not going to say, well, okay, you can do it. So where does that, why is the LGBTQ, the only group of people who can come in and bring their, what we believe is, is because otherwise people can justify, well, Hey, I have to be a prostitute. The only way I can work. I need a job, you know, but that's, but that's what we do.
01:14:21
Speaker
We do that with divorce. There's nothing wrong with drinking alcohol. so We do that with divorce. Jesus says you know the there's only one specific reason that you should right divorce somebody. and i mean We have plenty of people who are divorced, and for various reasons. Yeah, I'm one of those. yeah yeah and and so It's one of those things where it's like, i I hear what you're saying, and I'm not trying to um not trying to um I'm not trying to say that the way that we should treat the Bible in Christianity is like open season for whatever you want to do. But at the same time, like there's varying degrees that we look at things on already. There's some people who say, well, I literally cannot get divorced unless my spouse has committed adultery. That's the only thing. But we go, well, if your spouse has abused you, please get out of there. like that's like that that But you know we either go back and we say, well that's well, that's cultural. We should actually go back to the Bible and we should hold exactly to what Jesus said.
01:15:17
Speaker
Or we kind of recognize that there's that what Jesus was saying there wasn't necessarily um covering all every single thing that could ever happen. But he's also trying to make a point to to the the religious leaders of that time about their their um treatment of the law and their treatment of each other. I guess laura my point being is that there's already variation And so, let's say that somebody came to the the perspective that, um okay, well, being in a same-sex marriage is not the ideal plan that God had for human beings. But if you are in a committed relationship with with someone of the same gender, the same um standard for marriage applies to you as it does for a heterosexual couple. And so, let's say that somebody has that perspective, and then somebody else in the church has like a more fully affirming. It's it's not an issue, but like that's that's um
01:16:11
Speaker
like it's not a sin at all. But someone else is like, well, I'm not saying it's a sin, but I'm also not saying it's ideal, just like having multiple wives is not ideal, all of those things. Is there room for us to wrestle with those realities outside of just the black and white that you've kind of portrayed as like, well, the LGBTQ plus um ah proponents are just saying that it's not a sin, you should just you should be okay with that.
01:16:35
Speaker
because there's um And there's like a ton of variation in in the LGBTQ plus community as well when it comes to Christian belief and how to treat all of that. So it's like, I guess that's kind of what I'm asking. and not Not so much trying to pin you pin you in in in the corner and say, well, you got to, you got to agree with us or not, but just more, is there room for a variation of Christian belief or is it that we have to go back to this, like, well, it's black and white. It's set exactly like this. Therefore you have to treat everything black and white like that. Well,
01:17:04
Speaker
the The Bible says we have to be watchmen on the wall also, that the church are watchmen and that we protect that from sin, from open sin coming in. We don't have a right to judge someone's heart. But let me go back to the marriage, for instance, the marriage and divorce. There is only one grounds for remarriage.
01:17:23
Speaker
for divorce and remarriage. Now, a person that's abused, you really don't have to get divorced or remarried to leave the house. So, I don't know that in the Bible, maybe I'm wrong, that you say abuse, that they say, okay, well, abuse, you can Divorce and remarry because everybody abuse might be if I raise my voice and somebody or you do or they know But that's how we treat it in the church nowadays. yeah There's more conservative spaces that that treat it differently than that But I'm not trying to say the Bible says that the Bible says adultery So if their adultery is committed, then you're free and then you can remarry.
Church Standards and Moral Discussions
01:17:59
Speaker
So and let me go back to the other you talk about the same-sex marriage two people getting together Let me ask you how do you treat then? Let's say that we have a heterosexual couple that comes to church They're taking Bible studies. They want to be baptized, but they're not married Those heterosexual, they're not married. And they say, look, ah we want to join the church because you know I want to be your Sabbath school piano player. And the other one says, I want to be one of your Sabbath school teachers.
01:18:31
Speaker
Do we fight? Do we give that same flexibility? Do we say, Oh, well that's okay. Let's let you know what they always say is, Oh no, well you have to be married. If it's a man and a woman, you have to be married. We can't baptize you when you're living in sin, but if it's homosexual culturally, we'd be just a deaf ear to it all. And it's like, well, this is different. So maybe we can accept them.
01:18:56
Speaker
We don't do that with envy or greed or lust I mean like it My point being is that it seems like we really pick and choose Which ones we want to have a standard for and which ones we don't I'm not saying we don't have a standard I'm just saying that like this is kind of like when we talk about the LGBTQ plus questions like well We wouldn't do this with it. It's we do it all the time I mean, there are people who serve in 3ABN and in our churches who behind the behind closed doors, like they have issues and they got they got bad issues. and and And they might even have issues that other people know about and other people in leadership know about, but because, I mean, how many pastors have um have current or recent struggles with, or recent pornography addictions, right?
01:19:45
Speaker
Now, as soon as that's found out, if that becomes public, but let's say that somebody goes to their, goes to their um, their, uh, you know, conference, yeah, conference administrator and says, Hey, this is where I'm at. Does it, does, are the, how many conference administrators are going to say at this point, exactly. You have to step down from your pastoral role. You have to, it like that may happen, but it also may not happen and maybe it needs to, but.
01:20:09
Speaker
I guess my point is is like there are so many things across the board that we don't treat the way that you're talking about. So we either have to get way more like ah black and white across the board, or we have to wrestle with situations as they come to us. and i think I don't have a good solution to that. I'm just saying that that's one of the challenges that I notice on the conservative side is like, well, it you know it there's the there's the assumption that we're treating everything equally with the same standards, but I don't think we are.
01:20:39
Speaker
how only conservatives are The thing that I that's missing and I'm i'm wanting to hear you say is missing your your it seems like you're putting For instance, the heterosexual couple that's not married, the same as the LGBTQ couple. Now, the difference is this pastor has pornography problem. He's had an adultery. So what the church does, they let him go. They give him a time and after a period of a year or two, he comes back on the condition.
01:21:10
Speaker
that he admits he's in sin, that he committed sin. Here's the whole difference to me that he has to say, I've committed sin. I'm sorry, but the gays won't do that. The the gay community says this is not a sin. We can live like this. You heterosexual couples, they have to say, you know what? We've been living together.
01:21:29
Speaker
And you find out through you're your head elder is living with a woman. And so, you know, he has to, before he can ever come back and be a part of the church, he's number one, has to repent of that sin. Say publicly, I've done wrong. But the gay community, as I said earlier, they're open and outright and nobody wants to say no. You have to repent of that. You've got to quit living together and you've got to repent of that sin. So why do we just do that?
01:21:59
Speaker
But what if we were to go to say something like, um, greed, right? Someone is greedy. they and and And you see that consistently in their life in different ways. It's how they treat other people, how they've climbed up the ladder in in an organization or how they, you know, in a church or whatever. um We don't require people to to, well, that is a sin and I need to repent of it. and I mean, it I've just seen it consistently across cross church lines. I'm not trying to say that this is the way we ought to be. I'm not trying to say that, well, because because we allow it in all these places, then we have to allow it here. I guess my point is though, is like we seem to really hyper focus on this one specific thing. When across the board, there are less than ideal situations that we are perfectly comfortable with because
01:22:45
Speaker
it served I don't know if it serves us or because this is just the way that that um that we as humans have to operate because we're in ah we're in a world where nothing is ideal. and so I guess that's my challenge of of like just asking, is there room for a spectrum of belief on some of this stuff?
01:23:05
Speaker
where it's like, well, I believe the Bible says this and you believe the Bible says this, but ultimately we're so we can still be united on the mission of Jesus. That's kind of what I'm curious about. To add a caveat, Danny, um I think you know you had mentioned you know why on this issue, specifically LGBTQ plus issues, does it seem like we've been kind of like all of a sudden we're questioning things in the last 20 to 40 years, like what's going on? We used to all be united.
01:23:32
Speaker
and and things like that. And I think um you you know part of the conversation is, as Sean mentioned earlier before, that there is not a culturally based argument for affirming theology.
01:23:51
Speaker
um And you know just like like for example a few of the verses that are commonly used the Leviticus verses the first Corinthians verse Etc. There is some textual debate that's arisen in the last 20 to 40 years about certain words like the word um arson arsen a coi toy cortes um which is a word that Paul uses in Greek in 1 Corinthians. And there's a lot of debate about that word. And so because of that, um there now is are textual arguments that say, hey, what we're seeing in the text may be different than what we've seen in the text before, um right? So it comes from, we've had conversations with people where it comes from a heart of wanting to know what do the scriptures actually say, not what we thought that they said.
01:24:34
Speaker
right, it comes from a heart of trying to understand the truth. And so I'm not saying that necessarily that those views are right or wrong, agree or disagree, and you or I might disagree or agree with them, but they do exist. And so I think maybe that is kind of a ah reason for maybe, you know, what you want what else there do that with the Sabbath and because there's so many things.
01:24:56
Speaker
on the Sabbath, why is it that Seventh-day Adventists will not compromise? And yet there are so many pretty good arguments, actually. There's so many, and people want to come in, but no, if you're going to be a Seventh-day Adventist, you know, you have to believe in the Seventh-day Sabbath. Now, we can't we're not policemen to watch. Are you keeping the Sabbath the way you are? But you have to acknowledge it. You have to accept it. You got to reject, you know, Sunday worship. You got to support what we believe.
01:25:27
Speaker
And so we we we don't compromise that because we tend to think that's more important than any other commandment, which really is not in my opinion. Okay, we're back. All right. So we are back. We had a few technical difficulties. We we decided how to fire. we did We fired Jesse. That's why he's gone. And ah no, we we had a little issue and it took a bit of time for us to figure out what happened. So unfortunately, Jesse had to go there at the tail end of the conversation, but we did want to finish off with ah Danny here and continue the the good conversation we're having here. So Danny, I'm going to let you continue since I know that it cut you off a little bit with what with what you were saying.
01:26:04
Speaker
Sure, I was just saying that I ah some years ago, I was asked invited. You ready? I was invited to sing at a ah Baptist church and his big Baptist church down in think Knoxville, Tennessee.
Adventist Truth-Seeking Amidst Modern Challenges
01:26:21
Speaker
And so after the service, they had taken up an offering for my daughter and I as singers, and then they had taken up an offering for their Sunday school.
01:26:33
Speaker
Church offering so when the service is over the pastor said come back in the deep Deacons room so I went back and I noticed the offering for my my Our singing was much smaller than their big ties and offerings to the big church, but he said to me I understand you're one of those old Old Testament 70 Adventist he said and I said, oh, what do you mean by that? I well, you're one of those people who believe in the Ten Commandments, you got to keep the old Ten Commandments. And I said, oh, you don't believe in the Ten Commandments? And he said, man, they were nailed to the cross. I said, OK. So as I was noticing, they were bagging the money together, the the big offering from the 800 or 1000 people versus what we had for the singing. So I went over.
01:27:24
Speaker
And I started, as they were bagging it up, I grabbed the big offerings and I said, listen, pastor, thank you so much. I appreciate you having me here. i I'm going to go. He said, Oh, well, wait a minute. Wait, brother. He said, that's our ties and offerings for today. Uh, he said, you're offering, they're getting it ready for you. And I said, yeah, I know, but I prefer to take this one. So I went ahead and grabbed, I started going out the door and he came and he said, wait, wait, wait, wait, brother. He said, you, you can't take that. And I said, why not?
01:27:54
Speaker
And he said, okay, I get your point, but would you give the money back? I said, well, if the 10 commandments were nailed to the cross, if there's no 10 commandment law, then I'm not stealing. Right. And so what I was saying earlier is it seems like we make exceptions for what we want to make exceptions as Adventists. Cause I doubt there'll ever be a ah time that we can get together, you know, as, uh, is Jessica saying, or one of you saying we could get together.
01:28:24
Speaker
and um on certain issues and come together, I doubt as far as stealing goes, that we'll ever say, well, you know, that's something that we really, if we look at stealing, it's probably not stealing if I need food. It's probably not. So we we'll accept you in general. Yes, some people are going to steal, but we can't judge the heart. But open sin is what I'm talking about when we are Openly against god's law we're all gonna make mistakes we're all sinners saved by grace i have no right to judge someone in the lgbt community but as the church leader and remember i've been called to be a watchman on the wall to not allow open send to come into the church that will destroy it so.
01:29:07
Speaker
That's what separates to me the lgbtq from the others is the fact they refuse to believe that or admit that it's sent so they don't need to repent of it where the thief knows when he steals he's a you know the person who's an alcoholic and drug addict they know they are prostitute no she has an adult or no no they are.
01:29:30
Speaker
So these things, we encourage people to ask God to forgive them. But when it comes to LGBTQ is no, it's okay. It's it's acceptable now. And the culture is accepting it. Maybe we've been misinterpreting all of our early writers, including Ellen White and everybody else have been missed. Apparently either missed the boat or misinterpreted what those scriptures mean. But now we're smart enough. We're figuring out that we messed up all this time.
01:29:57
Speaker
I guess the the the thought that I had to what you're saying... um is thinking about maybe broadening you know beyond just the LGBTQ plus issue to like some of the other hot button topics we've talked about today, like abortion, women's ordination, stuff like that. um you know And I guess I'm just thinking about how you know it's kind of always been the heart of Adventist since the beginning to earnestly seek what the scriptures actually say, right? To be truthful and to seek after truth. And truth truth has been kind of the heart of Adventist since the beginning.
01:30:35
Speaker
um But at the beginning, when the Adventists came to certain conclusions, in a lot of ways, they were pushing back against kind of the whole history of Christianity right in a lot of ways to say, oh, you don't actually have a soul, but you are a soul. That's a bill really different. God doesn't burn people for all of eternity ah right in eternal hell. right um That's a really, really big pushback. A lot of these things, in fact, even today, a lot of Christians would consider Adventist occult or heretics simply because we don't believe in eternal hell fire, correct? um So a lot of these things were drastic pushbacks that the early Adventists did all because they were seeking after the truth.
01:31:10
Speaker
And so I guess the heart behind, and maybe as we start trying to come to a summary here conclusion, I guess I'm just curious, do you feel as if there is an ability for Adventist on both sides of the lane?
01:31:26
Speaker
to both assume the best about each other, that they boast have both have that desire for truth. And of course, that's not always the case, right? Sometimes someone comes with an agenda on either side, right? There's always agendas that sometimes we bring to the table. But like you described with your family, do you could you envision a future of Adventism where both sides could come together and say, hey, this is what I've seen in the Bible. This is what I've seen in the Bible. Can we talk about that without assuming that the other person is coming with an agenda?
01:31:53
Speaker
Because I think that that's one of the hard things that I see in the polarization in the church and politically, but in the church, um since that's what we're talking about, that a lot of times we just assume, oh, you're coming with an agenda. You have some sort of secret hidden mode of nefarious mode of when, you know, maybe that's not the case. I don't know. What do you think? um We have to be open.
01:32:14
Speaker
In other words, if someone can show me from Scripture that will change my mind, I can't just change it because everybody's doing it, or it's a group thing, or it's a cultural thing, or the majority is doing it. But if you can come and show me, well, hey, look, these Scriptures have been misinterpreted for the last couple thousand years, you know and now suddenly we have we we've we've got this new, where this what we thought was open sin was no longer,
01:32:40
Speaker
Now it's definitely going to open my mind about every other commandment too. Well wait if we we're wrong on that one and that seems to be one that you know that that's it personally not necessarily before God but one of the worst kind of like Well, you know, man, man. um So if if we can be wrong about that one, then maybe we're wrong about the Sabbath too. So maybe we should, you know, have these sit down with other people and say, is the Sabbath is Saturday really important? You know, what about?
01:33:12
Speaker
lying even well what's really lying if i just don't tell somebody something now you open it up so it's gonna be really big but my thing is open sin isn't there a gift though yeah in yeah yeah go ahead why i i was gonna say isn't there a gift though in in going back to the text and you know going back to the book and saying like Okay, is this really is that really in here? you know and And if it really is in there, then yeah we really shouldn't feel threatened, right? And I think that's why the Sabbath has to the test of time because every time we go back, we say, oh no, it's clear, it's it's in here. So is is there, to me it seems at times, and again, not trying to attack, but from the conservative side, there seems to be a fear that if we re-examine things, then maybe we'll end up throwing everything out.
01:33:57
Speaker
And i don't know if that's the case i feel as if perhaps if we re-examine it'll just affirm the truth even more i know that's been the case for me in my life where i've gone and and studied and yeah and i don't have a problem doing that.
01:34:10
Speaker
Because, as you say, conservatives and the liberals, they have, to me, I'll give you my personal experience, and people won't like this. But when I say something that liberals don't like, they send me hate mail. When I say stuff that the conservatives don't like, I hear a little bit about it, but not much. For instance, in 2019, I asked Ben Carson to speak at our Dr. Ben Carson at our 3A bank camp meeting in Loma Linda.
01:34:39
Speaker
justify and he never He spoke, never talked about politics. He gave his life's testimony, which black people before he became a Republican run for president celebrated him. Our books written about him, movies about him. He's the greatest guy going, but because he went for the Republican party and ran for president, I got, and one night I got over 2000 emails of hate mail.
01:35:07
Speaker
from many identifying themselves as black Adventists that would give emojis with the middle finger. They'd be riding me saying, you know, I know where you live. We're going to come and get you. You can't hide from us. They were mean and ugly. And the only reason I took it down off of Facebook, I don't mind if people want to say that to me, doesn't bother me. My wife, Ben Black, jumped in and said, because they were calling me racist, white supremacist and all this. And all I did was invite the guy to camp meeting.
01:35:37
Speaker
when oak would invite all kinds of democratic congressmen and leaders one of our churches in lanta just gave funny what's your name that did this against trump gave them a big celebration i don't raise a stink about that i don't get upset okay they want to do it but because i do it and it's on the right so what i found is the left It's a lot more emotional. They're a lot less patience. So when you say get together and talk, I would like to meet some people that I actually could from the last just sit down and not have them, yeah you know, basically, I mean, the reason I took it off the air or Facebook post down when my wife went to defend me, they started calling her names. She got over 800, almost a thousand.
01:36:21
Speaker
emails ugly one in an hour because my non Adventist friends were jumping in saying, well, wait, aren't you guys Adventist from what's wrong with Ben Carson? I thought you would like him. He's so we
Hope for Unity and Understanding
01:36:31
Speaker
just took the post down. So would I be open to sure? I'm open. But I'm just in my experience has been, you know, it's very tough. The other side is an open.
01:36:40
Speaker
Well, yeah, but they get ugly. In other words, when they get ugly and mean, there's no use doing that. Where I found on the right, they they don't usually, they're not that mean about it. They don't like it when I talk about, you know, I didn't support fall well. I don't support, you know, a lot of, you know, people and I don't support certain things, but they don't really get where they threaten me.
01:37:05
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I appreciate you sharing your experiences with that. And obviously, we would we would not support any sort of hate being thrown at anyone, whether it's from the right or the left. like we I think we can all agree that that rhetoric or tone is not Christ-like, okay? There's a difference between standing you know on a platform that you truly believe in and being convicted and speaking firmly about what you believe in versus um speaking in a tone of of condescension or or in a way that is ah meant to inflict you know harm in the way that you you know speak. not Not just inciting physical violence, but just emotional damage, just talking in a way that belittles others and and that is a political
01:37:44
Speaker
ah reality of our culture. And sadly, that has seeped into our church, both on the right and left, as is ah is kind of an attitude of arrogance or or coming from a position that I'm right, you're wrong. And it it has the the reality is it's created this divide. we're We're doing this series because we see this divide in our church.
01:38:06
Speaker
and it doesn't produce good fruit on either side when we're just throwing you know rotten tomatoes at each other instead of like, hey, you know what? We clearly disagree on these points, but you know we want to create an environment where we could just sit down, you know pray together, worship together, and work towards understanding the Scriptures better, because that's the reality, is the the very essence of the the founders of our church, they all came from different backgrounds. They came from different denominations. And there are times that they disagreed, and and maybe sometimes they did cross the line ah with tone. We could go to 1888 and say that Jones and Wagner and and Smith, like they they got heated you know on certain issues.
01:38:50
Speaker
and And so we're not perfect, we're human. There's times that you know we're gonna get emotional. There's times that we're gonna get frustrated with each other. that's That's what a family does all the time, a church family or real family.
01:39:01
Speaker
um but i I would hope that these conversations would help us realize, ah because Danny, the reality is this, as we kind of wrap up, is there's people that listen to us. um and And for the most part, we love our community. um Seeking What They Sought, it's an amazing group of people that send us emails. and And I know it's probably the same for you. You get a lot of messages that are positive at 3ABN, whether it's phone calls or texts or emails. we've We've gotten a lot of love from people, and we appreciate that.
01:39:29
Speaker
But there are people that really struggle um with when we have, but whether it's people that we've got people that listen from all sides, people that are more on that liberal progressive side. And they'll struggle when we have someone that's more conservative and say, you know, why are you platforming that person? Why are you giving them a chance to speak?
01:39:47
Speaker
um And it'll happen the other way too, where we'll we'll have um people on the right say, why would you have this person come in and and speak what we believe are lies theologically and you're you're distorting or or confusing the truth. But the problem is on both sides, if we don't do what we're doing right now and just talk and listen to where we're coming from,
01:40:08
Speaker
we're not going to make it We're not going to progress like we used to. The Spirit um is going to step in. And despite our differences culturally, politically, whatever it is, it's incredible how when the Spirit comes into a place where people have an open heart, He just works. He moves through people that are sin-filled, sin-stained.
01:40:27
Speaker
and and where things feel gray and and and are a struggle, you know, when we we struggle with the Bible. there's There's times where we're struggling with some of the nuances and and what it's really saying. God speaks. He works and He's not going to relent. He's going to keep working. So um for those listening, I want you to and be encouraged that God is not going to let up. He's going to continue to work through us in incredible ways, even if we have disagreements, even if we have this, like, in fact,
01:40:57
Speaker
he might shine brighter because of that. Like a bigger miracle can take place if we disagree on things and he can unite and and help us to to be aligned um in that one spirit. And so that's that's my prayer. I know, Danny, that's your prayer as well. And I know that many struggle with that um when when we come from these different backgrounds, it can be like there's this thick wall in front of us, and it becomes so hard to just listen to someone if if we have assumptions about what they believe, and it's it's against what I believe. And so, um again, I'm really encouraged by this series because we've spoken to people from many different walks of life, and I've seen a common thread or a common desire to keep seeking after God, to keep going after His word and listening to the Spirit work and move,
01:41:46
Speaker
And so I still have concerns about our church and as I know that you do as well, but I'm also assured that God is gonna take handle of this. He's gonna take care of this and those that have a heart of worship and and humility towards God, like he's gonna move. He's gonna work out these things.
01:42:02
Speaker
Danny, could you maybe give us the last word of the day and just share with us your outlook or your hope for the future of Adventism as we try and come together like you shared with your family? What's your hope? My hope is that we can each rededicate our lives to the Lord. My wife and I, Von, we love doing that together because if we don't have love for God, we're not gonna have love for our fellow man. And so we have to be willing to love people and I do. And she says that and she does too, but everywhere I go, I'm in airports. I talk to everybody and you know, and and she says, you never meet a stranger. Like no matter where we are, if there's one person you're over. And I said, I love people. I always have. And I enjoy people and all that I've said, I, I don't want to say, you know, I won't, don't want people get the wrong impression. I have someone, a young member of my family.
01:42:59
Speaker
that that, you know, is LGBTQ. I would stand up, basically, as you say, and fight for him, because I think he has the right to do, to be what he wants to be. I don't have to agree with it, but that's only fair that he has the right to do, and the laws of the land say he can do that. So I don't want to see anybody, you know, know, and I love him.
01:43:19
Speaker
And he knows how we talked about it. And so we just have to love each other. But I think tolerance and that's one of the things that I get like to say, I can preach a sermon, get 400,000 views, but at least 50 of them will start telling me how terrible I am and my divorce and what I did to an ex and things. They have no idea that we're not involved, couldn't know anything about, but yet they're judging you and they're saying, oh, he's a,
01:43:46
Speaker
I've read today somebody said he's a multiple adult and he's a multiple. They just throw these things out of nowhere. But honestly, I'm okay with it. I feel embarrassed for non Adventist reading this kind of stuff. So I think if we can really learn to love God and resubmit and commit or say, Lord, please create within me a new heart. Let me see each individual. I don't care how they act or who they are, what color they are, where they're from.
01:44:15
Speaker
of whether it's atheists, we love people. And when Jesus says, i if I be lifted up from this earth, we'll draw all men unto me. So I think having patience and You know, my, my mom used to call me when I was a kid, we have five kids and she called me old Joe because she said, he's got more patience than anybody I've ever seen. But I'm like the old saying, when you get upset, somebody i said, Oh, I just want to tear my house ah hair out. The old saying is it's useless to tear one's hair out in grief as grief is not lessened by bonus. So I think we got to have patience with one another, but we have to love each other.
01:44:52
Speaker
and Love God then we can come to the table then we can talk and sometimes we just have to agree to disagree but we don't make enemies. We should
Concluding Reflections on Faith and Mission
01:45:01
Speaker
not go away as enemies. If we don't agree, that's fine. So what somebody else does in their life and their home is not my business. I'm too busy worrying about my own salvation and my family. And so I don't have a right to judge others. It's just when I feel like there's open sin, the we are commissioned to not allow to be watchmen on the wall, not allow open sin. So it's a matter of this open sin is it's not because other than that,
01:45:28
Speaker
You know, we don't have a right judge not to be not judge Matthew But later in the same chapter is the same in verses by their fruits you shall know them so we can judge People's, you know that what their their outward signs are outward rebellion But we can't judge their heart because we're all gonna fail God. So I love the Lord I'm thankful that after being 73 years old I started at 33 and Young didn't know anything that somehow that we're still here. We're still able to preach the gospel. We're reaching tremendous amounts of people around the world. We see tremendous amount of people coming in to the Adventist church, accepting Jesus Christ. And I've been able to have close to 20 million books in print. They're going around the world that we see people continually coming in and accepting, the you know, the Lord has said, I joined the church. And so.
01:46:20
Speaker
I feel privileged because I have no background, no reason I should be here. Your dad could tell you that and your mom could tell you that to Sean, but I just said, okay, Lord, i'm I'm willing. And God wants to use each and every one of us to do something bigger and better than what we're already doing.
01:46:39
Speaker
But first, we need to submit our lives to Him, say, Lord, here I am, send me. Wow. Well, Danny, thank you so much, Danny. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing your heart. And yeah, we're just so thankful that you joined us. And I'm sure we could talk longer. There's always more that can be said, but for now, we're just thankful that we could have the conversation. And for those that are listening, continue this conversation, wrestle with the things that you want to wrestle with, and we'll continue to build the community together. We want to move forward together as a church. let the spirit lead. And again, yeah, Danny, thank you for being part of this discussion. And I'd be happy to come back and talk about other, there's plenty of other things to talk about as well. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you so much, Danny. Thanks, Danny. Thank you. God bless.
01:47:30
Speaker
Once again, thank you guys so much for listening to another episode of Seeking What They Sought. If you want to keep up with us, we exist on all the social media platforms. Our main way of communicating is Instagram, but we're also on TikTok, we're on YouTube, we're even on Facebook. For you millennials and Gen Xs out there, even the boomers, we haven't forgotten about you. So we're on Facebook, you can keep up with us there as well.
01:47:50
Speaker
And if you have comments on on that episode that we just posted and the discussion that we just had, your thoughts, maybe you disagree, youve ah you maybe a hot take or two, feel free to send us a message through our DMs on any social media or shoot us an email. We'd love to have conversations with you guys.
01:48:08
Speaker
I also want to issue a thank you to our producer, Eric Edstrom, for making us sound pretty. He always does such a good job, man. We used to make fun of him all the time in you know the early seasons. you know i've let you know i've I've let him off the hook recently. I i might bring him back. What do you guys think? Let me know let me know if we should bring him back. But Eric, we thank you so much for making us sound good.
01:48:28
Speaker
Last and not least, I would like to thank our patrons for keeping helping us keep the lights on, for supporting us financially. We really, really appreciate your generosity. So I think that is just about it. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Seeking What They Sought.