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003 - Jordan Peitzman
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In this episode I talk with Jordan Peitzman on possible submission wrestling rulesets. Jordan will host an invitational tournament in Iowa, which will experiment with a rule set that is NOT just jiu-jitsu with the serialnumbers filed off, but aims to be truly SUBMISSION WRESTLING!
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Transcript
Introduction to Jordan Pitesman and His Vision
00:00:00
Jordan
I can hear you. Can you hear me?
00:00:02
Andy Grappling
Yeah, perfect. yeah You're clear and loud.
00:00:05
Jordan
Perfect.
00:00:07
Andy Grappling
Okay, so Jordan, nice to meet you, first of all.
00:00:10
Jordan
Yeah. Nice to meet you as well. ah Thanks for having me.
00:00:14
Andy Grappling
Yeah, sure. So I've just followed followed you like yesterday. um So ah maybe you can just introduce yourself like a little
Innovating Grappling with Invitational Series
00:00:24
Andy Grappling
bit. so so far So far, I know you're from Iowa and you will host tournament, right? But maybe before we go... um go into the stuff with the tournament, maybe just introduce yourself a little bit.
00:00:36
Jordan
Yeah, so my name is Jordan Pitesman. I'm a jiu-jitsu black belt here in Iowa in the USA. um I just recently opened my own gym and we've been running ah submission grappling tournaments for about eight years now here in the state.
00:00:51
Jordan
And built from a very small like invitational style event into like a larger, more open tournament style event. And then we also host like ah like invitational series and feature series. And um kind of the reason that we're talking today, I think, is about a new invitational series that we're working on.
Defining True Submission Wrestling
00:01:10
Jordan
ah where we're going to kind of experiment around with some different rule sets, kind of find a ah cool blend between folk style wrestling, which is obviously and incredibly popular and has a huge cult following here um in the Midwest and in Iowa specifically, and then blending that with ah you know a jujitsu or a submission grappling rule set and trying to find a really exciting event.
00:01:33
Jordan
rule set that's gonna include you know incentives for takedown, top control, submissions, action, um a lot of the things that maybe we we don't necessarily see in some of the other types of rule sets in our sport.
00:01:47
Andy Grappling
Yeah, I mean, obviously, I'm a big advocate for what you're trying to do. I mean, I'm very outspoken about that I feel the need or the fact that there is a place for something I would call like true submission wrestling because, I mean, let's be honest, ADCC is officially called like, I think, submission fighting or something like this.
Jordan's Background in Wrestling and MMA
00:02:11
Andy Grappling
But it's pretty much Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu with modified rules or something.
00:02:17
Jordan
Exactly. Exactly.
00:02:19
Andy Grappling
So, you have a Jiu-Jitsu background or did you, since you grew up in Iowa, I suppose, did you wrestle also?
00:02:26
Jordan
I did. So I didn't have like a super extensive wrestling background. I wrestled for a few years in middle school, a few years in high school. um I loved the the challenge and the physical aspect of it. As I got later into high school, I just wanted to mess around with friends in the winter instead of doing wrestling. But ah then shortly after I graduated high school, I got into ah training with some MMA fighters and doing ah jujitsu and Muay Thai and some other combat sports, wrestling and and all the
Emphasizing Takedowns and Top Control
00:02:54
Jordan
above. So um I've been doing Pretty much primarily submission grappling for the last about 11 years.
00:03:00
Jordan
um I received my black belt about two or three years ago, and then I just recently opened my own gym about six months ago.
00:03:09
Andy Grappling
Okay, so then it's safe to say that it's not just that you want to, let's say, fill in a niche and provide something for the Iowa while wrestling crowd, but that you also yourself, it seems like, more interested in something like submission grappling, submission wrestling, in in contrast to, let's say, pure Ivy Jeff kind of jutsu.
00:03:33
Jordan
Yeah. So, I mean, like the style of grappling that we teach in our gym is is very centered around. We do a lot of standing work, a lot of hand fighting, a lot of work on takedowns, a lot of work on getting up off the floor and escaping.
00:03:44
Jordan
um I mean, we obviously do teach the guard, but um I put a lot more priority into takedowns and pinning and getting up off the bottom than I do in like your traditional ah jujitsu guard play.
00:04:00
Andy Grappling
yeah and i think it's very interesting because when i have these conversations with ah people online or whatever and i think there are a lot of people approach it like you do and like I do um it it it's it's doesn't feel like there's a lack of interest or it's almost like there isn't even a lack of people practicing that way and I mean for example I kind of have to go to jiu-jitsu tournaments and I'm called almost a bit sad that I have to go because I know like i always tell my good guys like okay we don't really train for this rule set but I mean
00:04:40
Andy Grappling
We don't have any other option. I mean, we also try to compete in freestyle wrestling because, I mean, in Germany we don't have folk style. ah But it's it's it's like, I really think there's not a lack in interest.
00:04:54
Andy Grappling
So I find it really cool that you're trying to put something out there. And I think that's why i want to have this discussion because I feel like um more people have to just kind of do it, I suppose.
Experimental Rule Sets in Tournaments
00:05:09
Jordan
Exactly. And it's ah to some degree, I'm surprised that nobody really has. I mean, there's there's been, you know, all of the different conversations about takedowns versus guard poles and all of the different debates that you have. It's it's kind of amazing that somebody hasn't experimented with something outside of the ADCC or the IBJJF, it's like we kind of just see the same regurgitation, maybe some slight changes to to one or two rules within you know those those two bigger rule sets, but everybody's basically doing the same thing. And um you know I've been running tournaments for eight years. We've been super experimental with our rule sets. like we've just We've always been willing to completely toss the rule set out and try something different. Like when we first started, it was like a sub only EBI
00:05:51
Jordan
rule set and then we kind of moved more towards like an ADCC-esque. um I would say i i prefer our rule set to ADCC. I think it's a little bit easier to score and I think it incentivizes more of the kind of behaviors that we we want to see it in grappling, but I still think there's definitely some things about it ah that could be improved and that's what I want to try to do with this new invitational series is is really experiment with something that that we haven't necessarily seen in the submission grappling world um and just just give it a try and see what we can come up with.
00:06:26
Andy Grappling
Yeah, I mean, i i get sometimes I get a lot of angry messages of people I call the Oz boys. who think I want to kind of destroy their Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
00:06:39
Andy Grappling
And I think it's very important to point out that I don't want to change Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. And I guess you would also don't want to change Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I want to have something different, like ah just different sport, basically. And obviously, there's a huge overlap.
00:06:56
Andy Grappling
And the goal might be to have people from more like a Jiu-Jitsu background to compete and also maybe from ah from a wrestling background. And maybe even, I don't know, from a Judo background at some point or whatever grappling style regionally is the most popular around the world.
00:07:15
Andy Grappling
and And I really want to point out that at least my project is not to change Jiu-Jitsu.
Importance of Wrestling in MMA
00:07:20
Andy Grappling
I mean, Jiu-Jitsu is people enjoy the way it is, I guess, and it's it's fine. it's i It's just that I think enough people would enjoy a sport which is more um around takedowns, scrambles, top position, and so on. So are you on board with that? or
00:07:39
Jordan
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, in you know my part of the world, it's like wrestling is very, very popular. And you get a lot of crossover athletes who you know wrestled their entire life. And then now they're trying to fit that skill set into you know a Brazilian jiu-jitsu rule set. And you know sometimes it doesn't translate. i mean, sometimes it does to some degree. But I think...
00:07:58
Jordan
having a rule set where they feel like they can not only use that 20 plus, you know, 10, 15, 20 plus years of training that they've been putting in to take downs and scrambles and getting up off the floor.
00:08:09
Jordan
um But then also adding in submissions. I think it's just a, it's a huge opportunity to, like you said, fit, fit a completely different niche. Like it's, again, I'm not, like you said, I'm not trying to change Brazilian jujitsu. Like There's always going to be tournaments that will allow people to compete in the Gi and to compete in, you know, guard friendly ah rule sets. But I just want to create something completely different that um that I think would fit and, you know, help out or or interest a lot of people in our area.
00:08:41
Andy Grappling
And also if you compare just to MMA, I mean, at this point in time, I think it's safe to say that the grappling we see in MMA is not really close to Ivi Jeff kind of, or even ADCC ah kind of Jiu-Jitsu. I mean, the skill set has completely shifted compared to 1, 2, 3 or whatever.
00:09:01
Andy Grappling
And I mean, for me at least, I believe it's very obvious and and the that the most let's say the most effective way to grapple is with wrestling and with submissions. I mean, that's what we see in MMA, what works and I mean, that might not be the the main or only argument because, I mean, fun is also, I guess, a big argument.
00:09:27
Andy Grappling
But I mean, at least since Jiu-Jitsu always, I think, has this... They always sold themselves as, oh it's so great for self-defense and look at us, Gracie, we did so well in UFC. And I mean, again, i think things changed and it's obvious that wrestling is a very effective form of martial arts.
Crafting Rules for Submission Wrestling
00:09:51
Jordan
Absolutely. And, uh, I'm glad you kind of mentioned like MMA because you know, that's, that's, we, we have tons of wrestlers in the area that are trying to transition into MMA. And a lot of them look to you know Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu training to be kind of that that bridge between their wrestling experience and being able to understand submissions. And to some degree, I do think it helps. But like you said, the to be able to fully mix wrestling and submissions, like if we can create a rule set that creates an extremely strong grappling base for MMA, um you know I think that's something that bodes well for for the entire community, but but specifically for for people in our area too.
00:10:30
Andy Grappling
I find it very interesting that at most MMA gyms I know, there's like wrestling classes and jiu-jitsu classes. And it's for me, like, why do you keep it separate?
00:10:43
Andy Grappling
doesn't make any sense. And I also find it very interesting that MMA fighters actually learn to play, let's say, pure jiu-jitsu.
00:10:45
Jordan
Yep.
00:10:52
Andy Grappling
And they learn like a gazillion different guards with certain ah certain letters in the alphabet, like X, God, Z, God, whatever, God, and I'm like, why?
00:11:01
Jordan
ye
00:11:04
Jordan
yeah
00:11:04
Andy Grappling
Why?
00:11:05
Jordan
Yeah. Yeah. I think especially as a, as a mixed martial artist, you have such a limited amount of time to dedicate to each individual skillset that it's like you, to some degree you have to create like a, a holistic training environment where you're training wrestling with submissions with striking, um, instead of, like you said, trying to segment them out into different classes, wrestling specific jujitsu or submission, submission specific, and then striking. I mean,
00:11:32
Jordan
um you have to make the most of your time so i think it like you said it makes sense to to combine the two it's it seems silly uh to to separate them
00:11:43
Andy Grappling
Yeah, absolutely. um So maybe before we ah get into rule sets or maybe the ideas you currently have about the rule sets of your tournament, maybe I give like a short outline what I personally would would aim for in a submission wrestling rule set or or what I see submission wrestling actually consists of, if that's fine. And then maybe you can use this as a segue to talk about rules or what what you have in mind so far.
00:12:17
Jordan
Absolutely. That sounds great.
00:12:20
Andy Grappling
Okay, so um for me, it's really important that I see your wrestling not as something arbitrary where we come up with rules and it's just like a sport like, i don't know, badminton.
00:12:31
Andy Grappling
um it's It's more for me really interesting that we have different wrestling styles all over the world in in almost every kind every kind or country on every continent. And these styles go go back hundreds, sometimes even thousands of years.
00:12:48
Andy Grappling
And I think there is this, there are certain invariants. We can really see that, that wherever you go in the world, people do this stuff because it's basically intuitive.
00:13:00
Andy Grappling
I think the most important thing is we always see takedowns. I mean, i would argue that most folk styles in the world actually end with a takedown because, um, what I have observed that, that,
00:13:05
Jordan
Mm-hmm.
00:13:17
Andy Grappling
only countries where there's actually sand ah have even extensive groundwork. more Most a people who practice wrestling and in in the history of of humankind had pretty much wrestled on hard floor somewhere in the tundra or prairie or whatever.
00:13:38
Andy Grappling
And so it oftentimes was basically if just the rule was take the guy down. It's this form of... um It's a display of skill and of strength and wits.
00:13:51
Andy Grappling
And that's it. So I think like the takedown as like is is like the most fundamental part of grappling. And that's why I believe it's... For me, it's very sad to see that how it plays almost no role in imp pure BJJ.
00:14:07
Andy Grappling
um And then I would say the second part is to pin. I mean, many, many, many styles around the world have incorporated some form of pinning.
00:14:19
Andy Grappling
Obviously, it's the Western styles like folk style, freestyle, American folk style and freestyle wrestling. Also, Greco-Roman, when we talk about contemporary styles.
00:14:31
Andy Grappling
If we go back in history, cat wrestling, obviously, the pin is very important. Also, I believe in Irish collar and elbow, there were pins in In Japanese Jujutsu or in Judo there are pins. So the pin is also very integral.
00:14:49
Andy Grappling
um And so I believe we might come back to this, that that also the pin has to be, for me at least, ah be conserved somehow in the ruleset and the importance of the pin.
00:15:01
Jordan
Absolutely.
00:15:02
Andy Grappling
And then the the the cherry on top would be the submission. And I often talk about how it's a big misconception that the submission is something new to wrestling. And it was developed from somewhere in Japan or Brazil.
00:15:15
Andy Grappling
The idea that you can use ah joint locks and chokeholds to manipulate the human body. And I think this is just wrong. We know that the Indian styles, the Iranian styles, British styles, even the medieval styles of of of of Europe and so on and so on have all incorporated some form of ah submission holds.
00:15:39
Andy Grappling
And it's more recently that actually they have been removed, mostly in your country. As far as I know, it's it was mostly to make wrestling a scholastic sport for schools and for colleges.
00:15:44
Jordan
Yep.
00:15:55
Andy Grappling
And there was this idea that, well, if you shouldn't maybe teach children how to kill another person. So they basically removed submissions from catch wrestling.
00:16:02
Jordan
Yeah.
00:16:05
Andy Grappling
And there we go. We got folk style and out of it, we got freestyle wrestling. um So this for me is like, like a short outline and I would see a new form of submission wrestling very um in line with all this history and this tradition and this kind of heritage.
00:16:26
Andy Grappling
um I mean, we can change things. We have learned things. ah that's That's not the point. But ah for me, at least, I think a takedown and a pin and a submission all have to be major, major points.
00:16:38
Andy Grappling
And again, Always being on top is valued in these styles. And Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is literally the only grappling style of hundreds where you can actually win without being confident on top or in the neutral position.
00:16:57
Andy Grappling
um Yeah, so maybe what are your ideas on on the event you're trying to make happen and the rules of it?
00:17:05
Jordan
Yeah, and ah that's that's like a really great outline and really great segue to to speak about how i want to how I want to develop this rule set because I do feel like they're there are aspects of the of the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu rule set that don't necessarily prioritize things like pinning.
00:17:21
Jordan
um Obviously, they, and obviously, takedowns as well, too, um very much on the submission and guard play. And like you said, you can win a match by being on bottom the entire time. Um, so the, from, from the feet, you know, like takedowns will be something that will be highly incentivized. I, I think that what we will do is that if somebody does decide to pull guard, uh, that will score as a takedown for the opponent.
00:17:44
Jordan
Um, so if somebody does want to come in and play like a Brazilian jujitsu style in that rule set, they would just immediately start the match down two to zero. And then, um, aspects of riding time being included, I think, or, you know, some type of top control. I'm not exactly sure.
00:17:59
Jordan
um how we want to implement that, whether the guard saves you from ride time or if it doesn't, um kind of the same thing with pinning. But, um you know, takedowns will be an important part of the rule set.
00:18:12
Jordan
When it comes to pinning, I think having some kind of progressive pin, you know, ah points awarded for pins that are are guarded, say like a half guard flattened out, I put both shoulders to the floor, that would score um initial points.
00:18:18
Andy Grappling
Thank you.
00:18:28
Jordan
But then if I pass the legs, those would also score points as long as the shoulders were pinned. And then the same if the hips were covered, um you know, say chest to chest or chest to back. So kind of a progressive pinning system where you could still score points for pinning even if the person is guarded and then you would score even more points if the legs were no longer involved in the pin and your legs were involved in in the pinning process of covering the hips or the shoulders.
00:18:54
Jordan
um And then of course, you know, the the submission as he always would would end the match. um i I think I would stay away from a pin ending the match and and reserving that for a high point total that would make um pinning an important incentive, but also something that you would not want to happen. You know you see it all the time. People are willing to let themselves be pinned in half guard for long periods of time, and they just hold on to the leg, and no points are scored. So I think by...
00:19:26
Jordan
By forcing by, you know, by scoring that for the top player, anytime a pin has happened, whether the legs are, are still involved or not would be a ah way to kind of, at least to some degree weed out some of that um interesting ah strategies that we see.
00:19:45
Andy Grappling
Maybe before we, I mean, there are things I think we can discuss, but could, I don't know if you have already made made it that explicit in your head, but could you give us like a short outline of maybe like what scores, how many points, or haven't you not yet considered the specifics?
00:20:04
Jordan
um So, yeah, I, I have, I've gotten, you know, I have, I still have ideas in my head. I'm still trying to talk to a lot of people. That's why I was really excited to talk to you to, to get your input thing on things. so Um, but initially, the thoughts would be takedown would score two points. Um, just like we see it in most wrestling or, you know, jujitsu rule sets, even, um, there would be escape points. So there'd be incentive to get off the bottom. If you were taken down, um, this progressive pinnings, uh,
00:20:33
Jordan
point system, I would say like if the legs are still involved and the shoulders are pinned, it could be one point. If the legs are no longer involved, but the hips aren't covered, then it could be two points. And then if the hips are covered, say mount um or back control, then those would be three point pins.
00:20:48
Jordan
um and And those could change depending on how much we want to incentivize pinning over over other behaviors. um But then reversals, you know, because currently in a lot of jujitsu rule sets, this is something we changed in our rule set is that any any change of position top to bottom is a reversal, um whether it comes from a guarded position or not.
00:21:10
Jordan
um So those scores, so that's something that we would also do in our rule set. So it a two point reversal there. And then um i think that pretty well covers. So the the progressive pinning would essentially ah replace what we currently see for the guard pass and would incentivize people to, or you know, would reward, I guess, rather people for pinning, even if the legs were still involved.
00:21:36
Andy Grappling
um I know because you have written ah written that in in a personal message.
00:21:36
Jordan
the
00:21:43
Andy Grappling
um But we might come back to that. So you want to have multiple periods because otherwise I believe escapes wouldn't make any sense mathematically.
00:21:54
Andy Grappling
But since you want to have periods, I think then escapes are actually great.
00:21:58
Jordan
Yep. yep
00:22:00
Andy Grappling
Correct? Yeah. um Okay, so... I really like the idea of progression because for me, I think this is like a very, ah very important part how I approach grappling and how I conceptualize grappling and how I teach grappling.
00:22:17
Andy Grappling
um i For me, in my head, there's really clear progressions. So for example, um if a takedown is basically getting someone from the feet to um let's say, more traditional wrestling style on on all fours.
00:22:35
Jordan
Yep. yep
00:22:36
Andy Grappling
That would be, for me, like the first step.
00:22:38
Andy Grappling
Then in my system, I would say, okay, the next step is ah to break the person down to a hip um or ah to basically pass the guard.
00:22:48
Andy Grappling
So for me, there's always the idea that if if if I can make a sandwich between the ground, the opponent, and I'm on top, then that's, for me, basically um a dominant position.
Simplification and Accessibility of Rules
00:23:00
Andy Grappling
And if the person still has base, ah there is space between the ground and the other person. So no no good. ah If the person has frames, then there is space between me and the other person.
00:23:16
Andy Grappling
Also no good. um So the whole idea of progression, I think, is very important. And I think that's that is actually what lags in Jiu-Jitsu competition. Because oftentimes there is a person which is really happy to play guard.
00:23:29
Andy Grappling
and another person with this, which is very happy to pass guard. And then you see that everybody is like playing tactics, but it's pretty, pretty much okay where he is. And the rules also don't give an incentive to really change the position. Right.
00:23:46
Jordan
Correct. Yeah.
00:23:50
Andy Grappling
The only issue I see with progressive hitting, let's say, is how would you go about if um I have somebody playing down in half guard.
00:24:01
Andy Grappling
Then I passed him out. So I would get more points. But then I give him the back again. So you would, I suppose, not have additional scores. So it's like once you progress, you cannot go back, correct?
00:24:17
Jordan
ah Yeah, so it would have to be like they fully regarded and then I passed again, which is kind of the way that we do our rule set. Like there's not like point stacking where you could just, you continually pin pin, pin, pin, or, you know, where people jump up knee and belly four or five times and get a bunch of points that way.
00:24:35
Jordan
um So it's like basically once you climb the tree, then you'd have to go back down to the bottom. You'd have to let somebody fully regard. And then if you wanted to score again, you'd have to pin and and pass again.
00:24:46
Andy Grappling
ah um So I'm personally more of a hardliner because I believe personally if your guard doesn't protect you from being flattened out I don't see the point in the guard and this is maybe more because I really like wrestling and I don't see many situations in MMA or self-defense where a guard where you're like completely flanned out actually works.
00:25:17
Jordan
Yeah.
00:25:18
Andy Grappling
um Yeah, but I mean, depends where you land on that spectrum, how much you want to deviate from prison jiu-jitsu, I suppose.
00:25:29
Jordan
Yeah. um So I guess with with your with that in mind, like kind of what would be your suggestion then or a way to kind of implement that?
00:25:39
Andy Grappling
um So I have like, how I would... I'm also not 100% sure. us So that the the whole idea with the pin for me is like the biggest problem with true submission wrestling.
00:25:46
Jordan
Okay.
00:25:54
Andy Grappling
Because um if we think catch wrestling, I think there's this big misconception about catch wrestling today. It's whenever I post stuff, then I get like 10 messages of people saying me, oh, that's just catch wrestling.
00:26:09
Andy Grappling
And what people don't understand, first of all, in most catch wrestling matches, there weren't choke holds. People don't know that. I mean, in some matches there were, it's called no holds barred, but in most catch wrestling matches, actually, chokes were forbidden.
00:26:24
Andy Grappling
um The other thing, which people also don't understand, that historically, from the records, most catch wrestling matches, by far, were won by pin.
00:26:37
Andy Grappling
So the submission was a very, very secondary part of cat wrestling. It was almost always used to force the other person to do something which got him pinned afterwards.
00:26:50
Andy Grappling
um So that's why I believe I kind of want to give a pinfall that that a pin finishes the match. But at the same time, I kind of know that then we will have way, way, way, way more pins than submissions.
00:27:08
Jordan
who
00:27:08
Andy Grappling
And I think that's not really what we want for submission wrestling. um So i guess I agree that I wouldn't make it, like, finish the match straight away.
00:27:23
Andy Grappling
um But I'm also a big proponent of making rules simple because I really don't like any sports where there's, like, 500 definitions a spectator has to learn first.
00:27:35
Jordan
Yep. yep
00:27:36
Andy Grappling
And this this is an issue I see with your progressive system while I get it from from the technician side in me and from the practitioner. If one would scale, want to scale it for like an audience, I think it's I mean, it's not hard to understand, but it's still I think the less rules, the better basically.
00:27:57
Andy Grappling
So I would just what I think would work with something like this, i would go with two points for takedown like you, I would go for one point for escape like you and then I would go for maybe three points for a pin and a pin is literally everything where it's just like yeah chest to chest and one is flattened out for a longer time than in wrestling because I think like touch pins is not true to grappling, it's like
00:28:27
Jordan
Yep. yep
00:28:33
Andy Grappling
the role of controlling the other person's body is really important. So I would go with something like five seconds, maybe, maybe 10 even. um
00:28:45
Andy Grappling
And then there is one idea where I'm really not sure about if I like it or not, but I've been playing with it. So actually two ideas. One idea is once you paint the guy for, let's say five or 10 seconds, you start over again in neutral.
00:29:02
Andy Grappling
And the other person cannot get an escape point. So what you have effectively done is the idea is if you do a takedown, get two points, the other person escapes.
00:29:05
Jordan
Yeah.
00:29:14
Andy Grappling
It's just one point, right? It's like almost nothing.
00:29:16
Jordan
yeah
00:29:18
Andy Grappling
but But if you convert actually from the takedown to a pin, this whole um sequence would score five points, right? right because ah the other person cannot get the escape back because you restart in neutral.
00:29:34
Andy Grappling
um This is an idea played with, and I think it might be quite cool. um The only issue I saw with this is if you restart, you will probably not see a lot of submissions from the pin, right?
00:29:50
Jordan
Exactly. Yeah.
00:29:52
Andy Grappling
But then again, i tried to remember, actually, I think most submissions aren't really from I mean, okay, there's the arm triangle is a really big one.
00:30:05
Andy Grappling
um But other than that, I think in Nogi, most submissions kind of are more from scramble or from rear positions, I suppose.
00:30:18
Andy Grappling
What do you think?
00:30:20
Jordan
Um, yeah, no, I, I think that's a, uh, that's an interesting way where you would almost. So like, uh, a ah pin would almost, if it was held long enough, it would almost be like a, what we see like stalemates in wrestling. And then they would restart back on the feet. Is that kind of know what you're saying?
00:30:39
Andy Grappling
Yeah, kind of, but also it's more like like bringing the takedown to its natural conclusion. And this way, the the whole sequence is like five times the point scoring potential.
00:30:55
Jordan
Yeah. Well, I think, I think, you know, what you're saying is that a lot of submissions do come from scramble positions, but I, I think you would force more scrambles if people knew that they were going to, you know, they were just going to be a large point total for the pin.
00:31:11
Jordan
They're going to avoid having their shoulders on the floor as much as possible. And then, then you get more of the back attack type stuff. So from, you would get more submissions from the rear position. So I actually think that that could be,
00:31:23
Jordan
um a really interesting way to to, you know, approach this.
00:31:30
Andy Grappling
Yeah, I mean, for me, I think it's obvious that you would kind of lose the amount of arm triangles you would get, because I think arm triangles are big, big ah submission statistically.
00:31:42
Jordan
Yeah.
00:31:43
Andy Grappling
on But other than that, I guess all the front headlock stuff shouldn't be too too much affected. All the rear attacks shouldn't be too much affected.
00:31:55
Andy Grappling
most armbars shouldn't be too much affected. Leg locks obviously also not too much affected. So, I mean, you would give up one great submission, but I guess that's mostly it.
00:32:10
Jordan
Yeah, and maybe, um I guess, yeah, and if you did want to see more chest-to-chest, like pinning submissions, I mean, I don't know if you you lengthen the amount of time. So after a pin is is considered, it's scored, and then maybe there's like a window of time where someone has time to submit, whether it's 15 or 30 seconds, and then if nothing happens in that 30 seconds, then and again, it's like a stalemate. You stand them back up, and then then they restart the whole process from the feet.
00:32:39
Andy Grappling
um I mean exactly that's something I thought about too but I think then there's the problem if let's say you get your points and then the other person reverses or escapes I mean, which is fine, I guess, but then it kind of would defeat the idea behind it.
00:32:59
Jordan
I got you. Yep.
00:33:01
Andy Grappling
yeah um One idea had, it's it's very and something I actually do in my class when I roll with people, is because people tend to forget about pins sometimes because we do a lot of pin and submission rounds in in my gym.
00:33:22
Andy Grappling
um and still people, for whatever reason, forget that they are pinned. So what I will do if if I pin a guy, ah will tap the mat three times.
00:33:34
Jordan
Oh, yeah.
00:33:35
Andy Grappling
And I think this is kind of interesting because then you can kind of tap out the other person for you. so And this is, I think, interesting because what this would mean that only if you can keep a person controlled,
00:33:51
Andy Grappling
with one hand basically does it actually score pin? Which also I think is interesting because this is like a big measure of control. If you can actually hold the person down and tap the mat three times without the person escaping, I mean, that's pretty controlling.
00:34:07
Jordan
that's That's about as effective of a pin as you can get. Yeah.
00:34:10
Andy Grappling
Yeah. So that's that's what's the second idea I talked about that the idea that that the pin is actually only scored if the taps the bet a few times.
00:34:12
Jordan
Yeah. i
00:34:21
Jordan
That's kind of funny. It'd be interesting to see. There'd be a lot of viral clips of people calling their own pin.
00:34:28
Andy Grappling
yeah But I mean. might be funny, it might be interesting. Then I thought maybe the referee could also maybe count the time, let's say five seconds, and then he basically gives like a signal that he could convert the pin.
00:34:46
Andy Grappling
But ah maybe then again it's too complicated. I don't know.
00:34:50
Jordan
Yeah, and either way, it sounds like a fun idea. And I've actually, i ah can't remember if it was your podcast with Greg or, but you had mentioned your your reps rounds, your reverse escape pin submit.
00:35:02
Jordan
And we started doing that in our gym and and I really enjoy those rounds. And I like the the way that people play around those rule sets and I've i've enjoyed it a lot. So I appreciate that that suggestion or that input.
00:35:19
Andy Grappling
Yeah, yeah, I mostly um
00:35:24
Andy Grappling
I'm not a big fan of rounds which are too constrained anymore. For me, this is like mostly for really, really beginners to keep it safe and to guide them ah and maybe to fix problems.
00:35:32
Jordan
Mm-hmm. Yep. yeahp
00:35:38
Andy Grappling
And I think it has a point if I can really identify for for a person, maybe then I keep it more constrained. But I think for most people who are kind of at the intermediate stage, think you can start from whatever position and basically if you keep it with reverse escape and submission, its it's constrained enough because you start with the position but free enough so people can actually get the dynamics they need.
00:36:09
Jordan
Yeah. And do do you ever reverse that? Like, so like something I played around with a little bit was like, instead of pin with the shoulders on the floor, it was like taking the back or submitting from chest to chest.
00:36:21
Jordan
So like i'm a little bit different than than how you had explained it. But i I just enjoyed trying to playing around with that and seeing seeing how the the students reacted to it.
00:36:33
Andy Grappling
Yeah, sometimes i add in that you win if you have full back control. um I don't really ah play it around with hitting submissions from pinning because that's Basically, my wrestling a part the resting part of me, I believe, like, if you mount a guy in any real scenario, you would probably kill him.
00:37:01
Andy Grappling
i mean, there's basically no need to submit.
00:37:03
Jordan
Yeah, I gotcha.
00:37:05
Andy Grappling
Yeah. um So what what ah is your thought about the time for pinning? Because, I mean, it sounded like you you don't want to have a pinfall, you know, more like scoring points um and how long would you think would be long enough but not too short for a pin to be scored a pin
00:37:26
Jordan
Yeah, i think I think somewhere between like the three and five second range is kind of where I'm thinking initially. I'm kind of taking inputs from everybody and seeing what they think, whether that's too short or whether that's too long.
00:37:39
Jordan
um But that seems to be kind of like the sweet spot for me. um What would your opinion be regarding that?
00:37:49
Andy Grappling
um Yeah, I also came to the conclusion, I played around with different pin times. I think three seconds kind of works, but I always find it's a little bit on faster side.
00:38:03
Andy Grappling
I really like five seconds. um But I could also see, depending on how much points you get and how long um how many pins you actually want to see um I could also see how one could do 10 seconds because I think think in Zambu it's actually 10 seconds um in Judo it's 20 seconds 20 I believe is too much
Strategic Elements in Match Structure
00:38:28
Jordan
Yeah, that seems really long.
00:38:28
Andy Grappling
um yeah but Zambu does 10 so I think anything between 5 and 10 but let's be honest nobody would do 7 seconds so it's basically 5 or 10 seconds and yeah I think
00:38:40
Jordan
Yeah. um So in Sambo, is it is at both shoulders touching the mat for 10 seconds? That's what it has to be.
00:38:48
Andy Grappling
Yeah, it's I think Sambo pinning is very similar to Judo, just shorter.
00:38:54
Jordan
Gotcha. Okay.
00:38:57
Andy Grappling
I mean, Judo, you also get like a half point. You get a Vasari for 10 seconds. So you kind of also get some score.
00:39:03
Jordan
Okay.
00:39:03
Andy Grappling
um
00:39:04
Jordan
And that's something I had kind of thought about is like, you know, near, like almost like a near fall type thing where if you had a three second pin, it would score something and five second pin, it would score something. Um, and then I don't, I don't, I don't know if you take that, if you take that progression further than that, or if five is just enough for the highest point total.
00:39:15
Andy Grappling
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
00:39:23
Andy Grappling
I think that's where in the beginning you talked about experimenting with stuff. I think this is exactly where I i could not say you if one would would play out the whole rule set in bigger context, if five is too short or not. I think this is something when we would just have to observe um and see, basically, like get I guess.
00:39:44
Andy Grappling
But yeah, i think like something like a near fall, I think would also be quite nice. maybe only one point or something. It's like, okay, you kind of almost got the pin.
00:39:56
Andy Grappling
Well, here's one point and we don't restart neutral, but I mean, bam, you got your pin, maybe you get your three points and then you lead 5-0 or something and restart in neutral.
00:40:07
Andy Grappling
And if you combine that maybe even with with tech falls, then I think it's almost pinning people is like half a submission or a third of a submission, depending if you want to go with 10th point differential or 15 point differential.
00:40:23
Andy Grappling
I mean, freestyle does 10, folks that is 15. So do you have any idea if you wouldn would want to include like tech falls?
00:40:26
Jordan
Mm-hmm.
00:40:32
Jordan
I am interested in that. That's something we've played around with and we've done like kind of quintet or like dual style events where, where tech falls were included. um When we did them, it was like under an ADCC rule set. So that only the second half of the match was scored. So I think we ended up doing 10 points was the, um was the tech fall.
00:40:53
Jordan
um But if the entire match is going to be scored, then I think, I think 15 probably makes more sense.
00:41:03
Andy Grappling
Yeah, if you would do it the way I said, that maybe you get two points for takedown, three points for pin, and you restart in neutral, actually, then this would be like, okay, a whole sequence of takedown to pin would be a third of a submission, almost.
00:41:23
Jordan
Yep, so if you were correct.
00:41:24
Andy Grappling
if you don't care If the other person doesn't score any points. So, yeah, I think that's fair.
00:41:28
Jordan
So yeah, if you were able if you were able to complete that sequence three times, that would be you know technical superiority.
00:41:36
Andy Grappling
Yeah, and I think that's very fair. I mean, i think one could even argue for only 10 points differential because, I mean, you can take down a guy, pin a guy, do it again without the person scoring any points in between, i don't know if that's maybe even just enough.
00:41:56
Jordan
Yeah. So yeah, like.
00:42:00
Andy Grappling
I think the good thing if you do do less points, if if you want to scale it at some point for for larger tournaments, I mean, shorter matches is very good for a large tournaments.
00:42:13
Jordan
Yeah, for sure. um I think for for the invitational series, I think I'm thinking three, three minute periods um is kind of where I, where I, I feel like two minutes might be, might be too short.
00:42:24
Jordan
Um, but, uh, but I'm open to, to trying different things and and seeing where things fit in and where, how things work for sure.
00:42:35
Andy Grappling
I think point invitational sounds good. One idea I had is that if one would do an amateur tournament, maybe one would do shorter rounds just, or maybe even just two rounds or one rounds.
00:42:52
Andy Grappling
But if it's only one round, then again, the escape point is kind of, hmm, what sense does it even make? But... but If you include the pin restart, then escape points would actually still be valuable.
00:43:11
Jordan
And then ah the other other thing that i kind of wanted to talk to you too about is, you know, because if we were going to do the three periods, you know, we would have a top and bottom, um you know, referees position. Someone that I'd spoken to recently today, one of the other black belts here in town that i I talked to and train alongside, um he had mentioned that for a referees position, if somebody could choose to start either from the front or from behind, they could, like, they the dominant player or the person that that was choosing, um you know, would have that option. And I was curious what your thoughts might be on that.
00:43:48
Andy Grappling
ah
00:43:50
Andy Grappling
You mean on top or behind like guarded or referees position kind of what do you mean?
00:43:56
Jordan
ah Yeah, so, like, basically, like ah like, a front headlock or, like, ah like a folk-style referee's position.
00:44:07
Andy Grappling
Yeah, I don't know. ah First of all, I mean, i will I will tell you what I think, but first of I'm not even sure if I really like starting in a referee's kind of position or if I would do more like freestyle where you just have periods but you also always start in neutral.
00:44:24
Andy Grappling
um i'm I'm not yet sure if I think it's a great idea for grappling. um So I personally would prefer to only go referee's position and that's it.
00:44:39
Andy Grappling
I mean, I think if you are like fast, you can pull guards from Referee's position, kind of. ah It depends how you actually define the starting position, i suppose.
00:44:47
Jordan
Yep.
00:44:51
Andy Grappling
If you go like belly and elbow in folk style, do something else.
00:44:58
Andy Grappling
I mean, you could do referee's position, but you could change the initial setup, right? You could go, like for for your rule set, it's the position style wrestlers use for optional start. You can always choose that.
00:45:11
Jordan
ye
00:45:11
Andy Grappling
And then the person has almost always the possibility to just fall to his back in the time.
00:45:17
Andy Grappling
Because, I mean, if you are like arm's length away, yeah, I think the other person could possibly pull guard easy.
00:45:25
Jordan
Yeah, and that that was the other thought. That was actually my initial thought when I when i thought of trying to trying to develop like a ah top and bottom position for the second and third period was was an optional start. And that's something...
00:45:38
Jordan
That's an idea that I had when we, even for like stalling, if somebody like somebody got caught for stalling, like they would be on the bottom of an optional start position.
00:45:45
Andy Grappling
ah
00:45:47
Jordan
um That's something that we played around with in a rule set a handful of years back. And and I kind of liked that idea. So I was almost kind of yeah reviving that idea for this. So I'm glad glad you had mentioned that too.
00:46:03
Andy Grappling
I believe that the folk style starting position would be in a grappling context, i think, too strong because i
00:46:13
Jordan
yeah
00:46:15
Andy Grappling
suppose you are not punishing locked hands like in folk style wrestling.
00:46:19
Jordan
Correct.
00:46:19
Andy Grappling
ah
00:46:20
Jordan
Yep.
00:46:21
Andy Grappling
So then I think if you can start with this position, it's it's a really tough time for the guy below. i mean, i think it's it's too strong.
00:46:28
Jordan
That's kind of what I thought. I wonder if it if it would be too overpowered. Okay.
00:46:33
Andy Grappling
Yeah, I think it's too overpowered. So I would prefer also like an optional start position. And then you could also even go like, okay, bottom guy is on all fours.
00:46:37
Jordan
i got
00:46:44
Andy Grappling
Top guy. Both hands to the back. And well you can stand. Wherever you like. Like behind. On the side. In front.
00:46:51
Jordan
Yeah, that's cool.
00:46:53
Andy Grappling
You would probably not stand in front.
00:46:53
Jordan
oh
00:46:54
Andy Grappling
Because the other person can shoot. But I mean.
00:46:56
Jordan
Yep.
00:46:57
Andy Grappling
Like. You could.
00:46:57
Jordan
If someone, yeah, you could decide to, if you wanted to. Yeah.
00:47:03
Jordan
Interesting.
00:47:03
Andy Grappling
I like.
00:47:03
Andy Grappling
What I like about this. Is that it's easy. To understand. It's like. Okay. Hands on the back. Done.
00:47:10
Jordan
Yep.
00:47:10
Andy Grappling
It's like. Yeah. And again, I'm just not sure if I like choosing top-bottom position for like the periods.
00:47:23
Andy Grappling
Obviously, you need some kind of reset position, right? I mean, even if you start all the periods in neutral, still, if the action was on the ground and people go out of bounds or whatever, you don't want to start in neutral.
00:47:40
Andy Grappling
um so even if one... decides to start every period in neutral, you still would have to define something like a referee's position.
00:47:50
Jordan
Yep, absolutely. So, yeah, I think I like that optional start idea. So think I'll play around with that and kind of run it by some other people and see what they think. But I think that's, I think your point of referees position being too overpowered, especially in a situation where you can't lock hands, um that that could be very difficult.
00:48:12
Jordan
Yeah. But the, you know, I think, and I had mentioned it maybe to you, maybe, and maybe, maybe I can't, I've talked to a lot of people in the last couple days. I can't remember who, who I've mentioned it to, but the person at the top of the second period would, that gets the first takedown in period one would be able to choose the the starting position for a period two.
00:48:32
Andy Grappling
ah And if nobody scored, then you toss a coin, I guess.
00:48:33
Jordan
So they, correct. Yep. Yeah. Just like they do.
00:48:40
Andy Grappling
Okay. but the One of the reasons why, i mean, i I think one has at some point talked about stalling because on the one hand, I am afraid that if one would have ah a second or third period start in more like mad wrestling position.
00:49:10
Andy Grappling
Maybe then in this rule set there will be a lot of groundwork. But maybe that's not even bad. if If people really want to get up from from the bottom, maybe it's even exciting still.
00:49:23
Andy Grappling
ah On the other hand, I really... don't want to see something like ADCC where it's like 20 minutes neutral, but nobody does anything, which is like the worst.
00:49:35
Andy Grappling
Then I would rather watch somebody run around guard for 15 minutes because these these shoving matches are like the worst.
00:49:40
Jordan
Yeah, absolutely.
00:49:45
Jordan
Well, and the fact that it's so difficult to actually score a takedown, that's something I always, I had a ah problem with the ADCC rule set and why, even though we used some aspects of their rule set to build out our rule set, we make it, you know, basically like folk style wrestling, just any, any feet to floor is, you know, with the hips covered is, is going to be considered a takedown where it's like, you know, if somebody turtles, I think you have to put hooks in before takedown points are scored.
00:50:02
Andy Grappling
Oh, yeah.
00:50:11
Jordan
And, You know, I've had many situations at ADCC tournaments where i had a kid, you know, it's like, I felt like he he took the kid down, he passed his guard and he was like almost taking his back and I looked over, I was thinking he'd be up like six to zero and it was zero to zero and I didn't really even understand.
00:50:15
Andy Grappling
oh yeah
00:50:29
Jordan
was like, he has done everything he needed to do to score points here and it's still zero, zero, like how are we... How are we incentivizing these behaviors if if somebody does so much in a match to to take top position and control the match and then they're still just zero to zero? I think it actually needs to be easier to score and more simplified than and to complicate it.
00:50:52
Andy Grappling
Oh yeah, 100%. I mean, more score is always good. I mean, more upscoring opportunity is what you want without making the rules like super complicated.
00:50:58
Jordan
Yeah.
00:51:05
Andy Grappling
um how Would you would your score the take down more like in folk style wrestling or freestyle? Because in freestyle, ah the quad pod doesn't score, right?
00:51:16
Jordan
Um, so I guess in, in, in our current rule set, we've, ah you've always, the the person has to have knees on the floor. Um, so it'd be more like, yeah.
00:51:25
Andy Grappling
It's more like freestyle actually.
00:51:29
Andy Grappling
Yeah, I like that. I think that that's good.
00:51:31
Jordan
Yeah, me too.
00:51:36
Andy Grappling
Yeah, I mean, you you taught you you told us, but I just wanted to point that out because you we discussed NDC rules so or Jiu-Jitsu rules. ah Yeah, that you simplify and reverse always goes to point whenever somebody was bottom and then is on top, which I think is very sensitive.
00:51:59
Jordan
Yeah, yep.
00:52:01
Andy Grappling
I mean, just everything else doesn't make any sense. um
00:52:08
Andy Grappling
What else? I think there are like a few more things about rules. ah What's your thought push outs?
00:52:17
Jordan
um Yeah, I love the idea of push outs. That's, ah again, something that we've been been looking to implement, but we just we don't in our venue, we don't have the space to have a mat that's big enough.
00:52:27
Andy Grappling
Yep.
00:52:27
Jordan
That's a circle. um
00:52:29
Andy Grappling
you
00:52:30
Jordan
But with this invitational style series, because it's just a single mat, that's something that I'm actually I'm actually looking and into getting ah a custom mat made that would have a circle so that.
00:52:41
Jordan
um I think for the first event, we're not going to have it ready in time. I don't think the mats would be be available by then. But um for future events, I would definitely like to have some type of push out rule.
00:52:53
Jordan
um i think I think the most simple is just a push out's one point. I think that's pretty pretty universal across most rule sets. Would you agree?
00:53:01
Andy Grappling
Yeah, I mean, i always felt like pushing somebody out is also a form of dominance and I think it should be scored. I think it's it's fair.
00:53:15
Andy Grappling
um i mean, freestyle is like you push out, it's one point, it's simple. I like that. In judo, it's a bit more like you are actually not allowed to just push somebody out.
00:53:29
Andy Grappling
So that's like forbidden. But if the other person is fleeing, then they get a penalty, basically. um So that's also some something which is okay.
00:53:45
Andy Grappling
But I guess it's similar in folksy wrestling, where it would be just stalling, stall warning. If you just get out of bounds just to escape something.
00:53:57
Andy Grappling
So I think both work, just like Like you said, depends how much space you got.
00:54:06
Andy Grappling
Yeah. I mean, the larger the match, the more fair it is to get a push-out point. I mean, I think if you like look at the at the size of a Naga competition or something, and you would add push-outs, it would be just crazy.
00:54:22
Jordan
Yeah, it'd be a it'd be a sumo match.
00:54:22
Andy Grappling
ah Yeah, exactly. But if you have, like, big... like in wrestling or maybe even larger, then I think it would be very fair to get a push-out point.
00:54:34
Jordan
Yeah.
00:54:35
Andy Grappling
um What I find very interesting is that in in ancient Greek wrestling, and we don't know exactly how the rules were and probably in 500, 200, 2000 years, they also changed, supposedly.
00:54:51
Andy Grappling
um But we know that at some point you scored when you had a pin, a submission, or a push-out.
00:54:58
Jordan
Oh, no, cool.
00:54:59
Andy Grappling
And people think, oh, it's like a submission, ah like sumo. and and But people also don't understand the area of the wrestling match was the inside of the Olympics, of the running court.
00:55:15
Jordan
Oh, wow. So it's very big.
00:55:15
Andy Grappling
So it was like a soccer field size.
00:55:20
Andy Grappling
and So I think if you can push somebody out of a soccer field, maybe it's fair if you win. Yeah.
00:55:26
Jordan
Yeah, no, I agree. um One thing I, so I, I don't watch a ton of freestyle, but I've, I've always been a little bit ah confused by why a push out isn't scored if somebody is grounded.
00:55:42
Andy Grappling
Oh, yeah, everybody's confused about that.
00:55:44
Jordan
Okay. Okay.
00:55:47
Andy Grappling
I think at some point it's... Yeah, i can't I can't even tell you. I think there's a big controversy if that's actually good or bad, and people complain about this all the time.
00:56:01
Jordan
Okay. I wondered the same because, like i again, i I only really watch freestyle when the when the Olympics come around. I pretty much primarily watch folk style. So um I was a little bit like confused about that. it felt like you know It'd almost be like in jiu-jitsu if you like had push-outs, but like if you pull guard at the edge, then then it wouldn't count.
Addressing Stalling and Penalties
00:56:21
Jordan
That would just like seem silly to me. Yeah.
00:56:25
Andy Grappling
I guess maybe if you are like and in in scrambles and you're like rolling around and heisting and whatever and then at some point during the action you go out of bounds maybe you shouldn't be punished.
00:56:36
Jordan
and Okay. Okay. So, that but then, but then because of that, people will play that a little bit.
00:56:39
Andy Grappling
i can see that.
00:56:43
Jordan
It's like, if they get close to the edge, they'll, they'll ground themselves.
00:56:44
Andy Grappling
Oh yeah. People will always play the rules. Yeah.
00:56:47
Jordan
Yep. Of course. Game the game.
00:56:51
Andy Grappling
Yeah. um Maybe we can discuss ah later and in a few minutes maybe stalling. Before that, what is your thought on writing time?
00:57:03
Jordan
Yeah, that's, that's an idea that that's probably the one that I have least, like the least amount of complete thoughts about. um I'm not exactly sure how to implement it, especially, I guess it changes a little bit, especially with what we talked about with pinning.
00:57:19
Jordan
um How, how would you score, you know, writing time? And I think that's something I still need to have a lot of conversations about before I I really decide how we want to approach that. But um obviously interested to hear your thoughts.
00:57:37
Andy Grappling
ah like you said it depends on the general on the complete rule set the specifics but maybe to outline I think there are several options I mean the first option is you don't have writing time ah the second option is you do it like in folk style you have writing time and if you have like above a minute or something at the end of the match you get a point um that's another option um
00:57:51
Jordan
Yeah.
00:58:07
Andy Grappling
An option actually a lot of people sent me in their PMs who were against pinning said that, well, um what about each minute you're on top, you get a point.
00:58:20
Andy Grappling
um That could also kind of work. I can see that.
00:58:25
Jordan
Yeah.
00:58:25
Andy Grappling
um Again, then what then one would have to really have something... in in the backhand for top stalling because I think then people will just hold each other down.
00:58:40
Jordan
Yep.
00:58:41
Andy Grappling
um and Another thing is if you don't want to, if you kind of want to have it but not exactly, you can use it as a tiebreaker, um
00:58:51
Jordan
Okay.
00:58:53
Andy Grappling
which is maybe too weak, maybe.
00:58:54
Jordan
Yeah.
00:58:55
Andy Grappling
um My personal opinion is I would, because you you you mentioned it in the beginning, I would always count riding time when you're the top, guard or not, doesn't matter.
00:59:10
Andy Grappling
um Because this gives the guard player an incentive to go for reversals and submissions, because otherwise he can protect himself.
00:59:15
Jordan
Exactly. Yep.
00:59:22
Andy Grappling
I kind of like the idea of getting one point for each minute, but again... one would have to do something about stalling. But I suppose one has to do something about stalling anyways.
00:59:37
Jordan
Correct. Yeah. um Yeah. And that's, that's, that was like the initial thought that I had. And I think that probably the thought that everybody's going to bring up if you add, and you writing time into a submission grappling rule set is that people would stall on the top position, but that, that happens anyway. So, um,
00:59:57
Jordan
Yeah, I think it's one way or the other you're going to have the problem. So you just have to decide what you what you mostly want to incentivize and and adjust as you go along as problems arise.
01:00:12
Jordan
And that's you know i'm I'm super willing to to change things as we move along. If we we experiment it with something and we don't like the results that we get, I'm totally okay with with going a different direction with it and you know continuing to evolve the rule set until we find something that does ah you know look the way that we want it to.
01:00:32
Andy Grappling
So what's your current idea on Starling? How would you want to punish it?
01:00:38
Jordan
um So I like the idea of if on the feet of somebody stalling, it would go to like a grounded, you know, the the other person would choose the top position.
01:00:49
Jordan
um And then I think penalty points, you know, is is the only other way to really ah to punish the stalling.
01:00:58
Andy Grappling
Yeah, and the problem is if you do that, you can actually get an e escape point. and So you might actually get, ah don't get any punished, but even rewarded for stalling.
01:01:04
Jordan
True.
01:01:09
Jordan
Okay, yeah, so you would you'd almost have to take the point. I mean, and even then it's just ah it could be a wash because but um yeah, you would have to take a penalty point and put them down for that to not be the case.
01:01:26
Andy Grappling
Then it would work, then they could kind of ah kind of get penalty point back if they can escape. yeah might Might work, but I'm not sure.
01:01:35
Jordan
Mm hmm.
01:01:42
Andy Grappling
um and And what about bottom and top stalling?
01:01:47
Jordan
um I guess, yeah, I haven't had a ton of thoughts on on that quite yet. um Still trying to try to put together all my ideas. And like I said, talk to as many people as I can.
01:01:59
Jordan
um Yeah, i mean if you have any ideas, I'm open to hearing them.
01:02:02
Andy Grappling
my My idea is, yeah, sure. So my idea is that you can have like three scenarios and I thought i like like like the the idea, but but again, the disclaimer, um the referee becomes more involved than is...
01:02:28
Andy Grappling
um If the you can have a bottom stalling, top stalling, and stalemates, right? um I think if you have top stalling, I would reset the match in neutral, and the other person gets it his escape point.
01:02:42
Jordan
Okay.
01:02:43
Andy Grappling
um If you have bottom stalling, I would reset maybe even in neutral, but the person doesn't get his escape point. So this way the takedown counts basically twice.
01:02:57
Andy Grappling
um And in stalemates, maybe you reset in referee's position.
01:03:04
Jordan
Okay. Yeah, I think that's really interesting.
01:03:06
Andy Grappling
Would be one idea.
01:03:07
Jordan
Yeah, that's cool. That's ah that's insightful for sure.
01:03:13
Andy Grappling
And I mean, obviously then the issue becomes that the referee has to kind of decide. But I mean, that's in most sports, grappling sports, the case anyway. So I mean, in the end, you cannot have sport without...
01:03:29
Andy Grappling
punishing stalling without any person making a decision when somebody stalls or not.
01:03:33
Jordan
Yeah, exactly. It's like the referee is always going to be involved at some level unless you are just going to do a submission only, which we already know kind of what that looks like. so
01:03:44
Andy Grappling
Yeah. you Yeah.
01:03:47
Andy Grappling
All right. um If you like to discuss anything, or is there anything else about the rules that you want to discuss, or maybe about the competition?
01:03:58
Jordan
um Not necessarily specifically. um You know, i think my biggest thing right now is is trying to figure out the the best possible rule set to to put together to to at least get this thing up and off the ground. And then, you know, as I said, we'll we'll make.
01:04:14
Jordan
adjustments as we go along. So I really appreciate your input on a lot of this stuff because, um you know, I have a lot of ideas and I've talked to a lot of people who have ideas and I'm still trying to to put it all together.
Upcoming 'Choke Point' Tournament
01:04:26
Jordan
to just So to stop talk to somebody like yourself who has clearly thought very deeply about this kind of stuff um is super, super useful and and beneficial for me. So I appreciate you having me on to do that.
01:04:38
Andy Grappling
Yeah, sure. So then maybe I'm going to pitch you my perfect rule set and you can decide if you take it or not and probably you you won't, but which is absolutely fine, but I will just give you my pitch, okay?
01:04:50
Jordan
Absolutely. Love to hear it.
01:04:53
Andy Grappling
Okay, so three periods, three-minute rounds. Sounds great. Two points for a takedown, two points for a reversal, one point for an escape, three points For a pin, a pin is if anything where you can have the back on the mat and the chest on another person's chest, so chest to chest and back to mat for at least five seconds, maybe even 10.
01:05:25
Andy Grappling
um And then after a pin, you restart in neutral, which means that you get five points. Then... then
01:05:37
Andy Grappling
Each period should start in neutral. ah In any other scenario, out of bounds and stuff, you would start in a referee's position. Referee's position would be bottom guys on all fours and the other person has both hands on the back.
01:05:53
Andy Grappling
um There would be a technical fall. um i would even go for 10 points differential is enough, but I could also see 15 points.
01:06:04
Andy Grappling
fifteen points I would like a push out for one point if the mat is big enough. If not, okay. Then I would just give penalties if people are obviously fleeing the mat.
01:06:16
Andy Grappling
um I would include one minute writing poor time gives you ah one point. That's it, I guess.
01:06:31
Jordan
No, I think that's simple.
01:06:32
Andy Grappling
And maybe... that's Yeah, that's it's simple and maybe to advertise it a bit more. I even like that it's 1 point, 2 point, 3 points. So it's very, somebody asks you, you can say, well, you get 3 points that you can pin the guy, get 2 points whenever you get on top from your drill bottom.
01:06:51
Andy Grappling
So take down or reverse it. And if you escape or put it out, you get 1 point. So I think simple enough to explain.
01:06:56
Jordan
Yeah.
01:06:58
Jordan
Yeah, I think so too. And I think for the most part, I think I would align with you on most of that. I think the only thing where I might differ is the the period starting positions, just because I think it'd be a ah cool wrinkle to add in into submission grappling. But who knows, maybe I try it out and you know i I decide differently and and decide that you're right. But um I think initially, I think it'd be cool to to implement some of those, you know like I said, referees optional start positions into the second and third period. and
01:07:29
Andy Grappling
It kind of makes sense in Iowa, to be honest. I mean,
01:07:32
Jordan
Yeah. And that's, there's a, there's a big part of me that wants to, to captivate that audience.
01:07:33
Andy Grappling
it's
01:07:37
Jordan
You know, I think a lot of wrestlers kind of look at jujitsu right now, or they look at submission grappling, they kind of laugh at it. Whereas I think if we could make it look more like something that they've seen before, they would be a lot more interested in it and And we could captivate what is already ah really huge audience at the same time making what I think would be a really exciting rule set that would include you know wrestling and submissions.
01:08:05
Andy Grappling
you
01:08:08
Andy Grappling
yeah
01:08:13
Andy Grappling
There was one more thing I wanted to say. Exactly. um i mean for Again, for Iowa, I think it makes sense. um I felt like if you want something, and this is my big big fake project, to be honest. If you want to grow Submission Wrestling internationally, think it's maybe be better to orient towards freestyle wrestling more because it's just more popular around the world.
01:08:41
Andy Grappling
um While I still really like folk style wrestling, and I think it's one of the very few complete grappling systems, I believe, a apart from submission stacking, because I really like the idea that people constantly try to get back up on their feet. I really think this adds a ah three d three d component to to grappling because I grew up doing judo and in wrestling and interesting also it's always this okay it's basically take downs with a short amount of time on the mat and then you kind of get rescued from a referee and it's like really dualistic almost and I think what my
01:09:23
Jordan
yeah
01:09:30
Andy Grappling
um vision is that grappling is truly like it flows between bottom and standing and it's like all these many as many positions as possible basically
01:09:45
Jordan
Absolutely. Have you been watching the NCAAs at all?
01:09:49
Andy Grappling
oh yeah absolutely I'm trying to catch up with it i will yeah
01:09:52
Jordan
yeah i was Yeah, I was doing the same thing right before I was watching the medal rounds ah before we popped on here.
01:09:59
Andy Grappling
yeah Yeah, I will watch. For me, it it will be late, but I will watch the final
01:10:04
Jordan
Yeah. is ah Is there a particular final you're looking forward to most?
01:10:12
Andy Grappling
I mean, I like Stevenson versus Hendrickson in the heavyweight final.
01:10:17
Jordan
Yeah.
01:10:17
Andy Grappling
I think Hendrickson has been absolutely on fire. And Gabriel Stevenson is obviously like one of the biggest favorites ever. But at the same time, Hendrickson was so dominant the whole season.
01:10:32
Andy Grappling
I might not be shocked if this match gets way closer than people suspect.
01:10:37
Jordan
I think so too, yeah.
01:10:40
Andy Grappling
on What else?
01:10:44
Andy Grappling
Let me think. it's It's so sad because I just watched it today and then I have to...
01:10:50
Jordan
Yeah. Yeah.
01:10:52
Andy Grappling
Oh, Keck Eyes and Skorodgy, obviously.
01:10:52
Jordan
Yeah. ke ka and staraci yeah
01:10:54
Andy Grappling
Yeah.
01:10:55
Jordan
It sounds like they're starting off the broadcast with that one. So that one will be right away at the beginning of the night and then, uh, Gable and Wyatt will be the last match.
01:11:00
Andy Grappling
Yeah. My... a Hemedy versus Atuli.
01:11:11
Andy Grappling
ah to
01:11:11
Jordan
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:11:14
Andy Grappling
I think will be cool. and i like spratley he's like scrambling dude so i found it cool that he as a seven seed got into the finals think that might be exciting
01:11:23
Jordan
Yeah.
01:11:33
Jordan
Who's he going against again? I can't remember.
01:11:36
Andy Grappling
i also don't remember but although i think the all the favorites are out
01:11:37
Jordan
ah Okay. Yeah.
01:11:41
Jordan
Yeah.
01:11:45
Andy Grappling
Okay, I mean, if if if you want to discuss something else, maybe I have like 15 to 20 minutes left, but if not, it's also fine. We can just finish here if you have to go.
01:11:55
Jordan
Yeah, no, that's okay. i think I think we can finish up. I got a ah few things that I got to do here at the gym. But ah again, I really appreciate you taking the time to to bring me on and discuss and give your inputs. And um it's been super super helpful. And I'll definitely take some of some of what you've suggested and implemented into the rule set. And hopefully hopefully you'll be ah you'll be happy to see that some of your influences have made their way into the rule set.
01:12:24
Andy Grappling
Very cool, but I'm already happy that you you actually tried something new because, again, i miss it. I miss this in grappling that we have something like a truly submission wrestling competition scene. And i think we have to do it in a grassroots-like fashion because I cannot see that Some Craig Jones comes around with a few million money if a few million dollars and will do like a big submission racing tournament. So I think it has to be grassroots.
01:12:57
Andy Grappling
And I mean, you're doing it in Iowa. I will try to do something in Germany. And maybe people all over the world will do something. And maybe at some point we can actually find the common rule set. And then there we go.
01:13:11
Andy Grappling
But I mean, somewhere we have to start.
01:13:12
Jordan
That'd be great.
01:13:16
Andy Grappling
All right, Jordan. So thank you very much. So maybe um just um tell people the name of the tournament and how to follow your work, because I think like especially people in America should hear about it, because if you follow me and my page, there's a big chance you might be in interested.
01:13:37
Jordan
Yeah. um So you can, you can check out any of our events. The event is subspectrum um on Instagram. It's subspectrum BJJ, which probably should be changed at some point.
01:13:48
Jordan
um But that's where you can find all the information about the event. The event will be called choke point and it'll be our new invitational series with an experimental rule set to incentivize takedowns, top control action and submissions.
01:14:05
Andy Grappling
Alright, it was a pleasure and let's talk again maybe if you have a specific route set or maybe the event is happening.
01:14:15
Jordan
That would be great. ah appreciate you, Andy. Thank you.
01:14:18
Andy Grappling
Alright, bye bye.