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00:00:01

002 - Sonny Brown

Grappling with the World

20 Plays46 minutes ago

Sonny and me had many fun conversations on his podcast the Sonny Brown Breakdown. This time the tables have turned: I am the host and want to know who is the man behind the breakdowns.... We discuss his bio, including stories about how he beat Dan Hooker in a MMA fight, his love for grappling and much much more!

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Transcript

Introduction and Background

00:00:01

Andy Grappling

okay um today i'm speaking with sonny brown and it's probably the 10th time on on a recording we are talking and even much more times uh off offline we have talked and um today is very interesting for me at least and maybe for for the people listening that usually sonny is the guy interviewing other people and we will start this podcast uh with me interviewing Sonny. So maybe this is a chance to to learn more about this Australian OG YouTube podcast, grappling, corophy. And yeah, so Sonny, how are you?

Weekend Plans and Jiu-Jitsu Insights

00:00:47

Sonny

Mate, I'm doing pretty well, Andy. It's a Saturday evening here in Australia. So i just, ah you know, it's it's a beautiful day, mate. Jeez, I've had a good day.

00:00:59

Andy Grappling

so you you said that you will attend um a josh barnett seminar or did it did you attend already today

00:01:07

Sonny

No, there's a Josh Barnett seminar going on tomorrow up the central coast of Australia, which is a couple of hours drive. so But it's going to be worth it. It's going to be worth it. So as long as I can wake up at a reasonable hour tomorrow morning, it's it's locked in.

00:01:24

Andy Grappling

okay so otherwise you could have already um gave us all the new cat wrestling techniques.

00:01:31

Sonny

Well, you know, it's not nothing new, Andy. Nothing new. that's the yeah That's the real secret. It's just stuff that can be stolen and utilized in jujitsu whenever they see fit.

00:01:44

Andy Grappling

All right. So you're still using the term Jiu-Jitsu. No, don't worry. It's all marketing.

00:01:51

Sonny

It's all marketing. Is that out of is that ah out of play now? i haven't I haven't checked Instagram in a little bit.

00:01:57

Andy Grappling

No, no, no. It's all good. Yeah. So maybe let's start. It's basically the first question i asked Greg. um Why do you love grappling? Or if you don't love grappling, why what what what kind of ah relationship do you have with grappling? Or if you love it, just tell us maybe what you really, really enjoy and why it's your passion.

00:02:23

Sonny

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good question because sometimes i do feel uninspired by it, especially, especially recently. um but I will say that as a sport, it is, it is the constant problem solving that I find, useful to do. Same with kind of martial arts in general. Grappling is you know, has the advantage with the amount of sparring that you can do wrestling as well.

00:02:49

Sonny

and generally not receive any head trauma, unless slams are involved, or you mess up a diving Kimura roll. um So it's just that that constant ah problem solving.

00:03:02

Sonny

And when you are rolling, and kind of has that moving meditative effect where it kind of it takes you out of whatever day-to-day rubbish you've been having to deal with and you know for moments you're either flowing or you are fending for your life um either or is kind of certainly breaks up the monotony of the modern day i would say so i would say i when i when i do love it it is most certainly for you know now the meditative moving meditation practice that it can offer um ah other than you know just as a general way to

00:03:41

Sonny

and any exercise or any hobby would be to stay fit, stay active, and have a community of like-minded people. Andy, I think that's something that is sometimes overlooked.

00:03:54

Andy Grappling

Yeah, absolutely.

Challenges and Reflections on Social Media

00:03:55

Andy Grappling

um You mentioned that you feel uninspired by grappling right now. Can can you clarify this? What you mean?

00:04:02

Sonny

ah Yeah, I mean, one, it is, which I'm sure you talked about with Greg glass on your first episode, but the you know the rubbish going back and forth between eco online.

00:04:13

Sonny

ah ah You know what? I could probably say I'm uninspired by just the grappling on social media, um ah but then how that does affect the... the real world, let's say, but it is like just the rubbish going back and forth on the eco. Like why that even, why that is the particular topic that gets everyone so fired up in the last week, uh, last couple of weeks.

00:04:34

Sonny

And then also the, uh, the, the lack of some of seemingly original kind of, ah original voices in, in the grappling scene at the moment where everyone is,

00:04:51

Sonny

you know, just repeating the commonly held beliefs, except for this, you know, the one thing that comes up with ego and, you know, doing what I would call I inspired technique videos on Instagram. It seems to follow off on pop up and pop up over and over again with the same old yellow text.

00:05:10

Sonny

demonstrating techniques that are not even their techniques that they learn from someone else and doing it in a vocal intonation that they've picked up from someone else. And there's very little of the the actual real person behind it. It's just very, ah seems very, very cookie cutter at the moment.

00:05:28

Sonny

And I don't know, I guess part of the ah original of of ah grappling or jujitsu or mixed martial arts for me was that it was something a bit different and and unique. And it's kind of gone through that cycle i think and kind of got a bit a bit repetitive for me but again that's you know that could just be too much time on social media i don't know but that's that's the general spot where i'm at with it now

00:05:53

Andy Grappling

Yeah, I couldn't agree more with basically everything you said, because I think many people already know I have love-hate relationship with social media. It's more hate, I guess, than love.

00:06:05

Andy Grappling

It's just the necessary ah way to communicate for me right now. But again, I'm trying to write this book, which takes me a long time, but I'm also doing it mostly because I'm just tired of social media, because then I have like one coherent package, people can read it or don't, but but the whole, I don't like the playing with the algorithm, algorithms, shots here, shots there, discussion, link-like, I really highly dislike all this kind of stuff.

00:06:38

Andy Grappling

um

00:06:39

Sonny

Well, that's going to be terrible marketing for the book though, Andy.

00:06:39

Andy Grappling

Yeah, but,

00:06:42

Sonny

You have to break that book down into digestible 15 to 30 second chunks.

00:06:44

Andy Grappling

yeah, but, yes, but the great thing is,

00:06:48

Sonny

And...

00:06:50

Andy Grappling

I don't make my money with this. So I don't give a shit if my book sells or not.

00:06:52

Sonny

but

00:06:54

Andy Grappling

That's the whole point.

00:06:56

Sonny

Well, but that's the thing. is I don't know how much money to these even though people are making on social media. It's a very tough, ah tough game to actually make anything of a reasonable living throughout.

00:07:10

Sonny

um it's not impossible but it's like geez it's it it takes just as much work as you would generally expect from you know part-time or full-time job as well you and you have to treat it such as any way to make money but it is the let's say luxury andy to to to be able to just do that uh do the book solely for the love solely for the love my friend

00:07:38

Andy Grappling

Yeah, I mean, if if if I look back at YouTube, for example, when I grew up, YouTube was like new. I really remember when YouTube came out and and I think at the beginning, and I'm not quite sure, there was like a very small time limit.

00:07:46

Sonny

Yep.

00:07:55

Andy Grappling

So the videos were very short.

00:07:57

Sonny

Yeah.

00:07:59

Andy Grappling

And even then, many of these big channels who became like millions of subscribers, even those, they basically did videos with their smartphones.

00:08:10

Andy Grappling

um I don't even know if they had smartphones back then or with some digital camera. And the production quality wasn't great. But to be honest, I really missed that time because I feel like it was, like you said, it was really authentic.

00:08:25

Andy Grappling

It was original. and And the content was like literally in the stuff people did, in the ideas, in the passion, in the people. And now I feel like um on YouTube in general, but also on the social media space and grappling or whatever, it's like people, like like you said, originality, they copy and and mimic all the same.

00:08:48

Andy Grappling

things and it's like everybody and tries to be the new inventor of something and market him as the originator of whatever but in the end he's repeating stuff that has been said for years and it's it's's it's i can't 100 um and understand you yeah

00:09:10

Sonny

Yeah. And I mean, it's not no hate as such on the people who got to do it too, because like, ah ah you know, it's, you got to do what you got to do. And that is part of the game. To some extent, I just don't have the requirement to be thrilled, to be thrilled by it. i will to find it ah energizing um in in any way, shape or form.

00:09:32

Sonny

And Like, yeah, I think obviously that's just some, you know, maturation of any kind of of market, but a lot of it is just, you know, attention spans themselves of dwindling and they keep getting shorter and shorter and shorter and shorter that it is just crazy in that, like, you know, obviously every video should, you know, got to have your hook at the start, try and capture that attention because you've only got a you know,

00:09:55

Sonny

0.5 a second before people scroll on. But then even if it does it does honestly feel like, you know, let's say it'll put word or put, the or when you do put the book out, or even just some of your old post, man, it's like, it's very hard for that to be, you know, discussed about because it's like, if people haven't seen something in the last 24 hours on a story share,

00:10:17

Sonny

it may as well not have existed for for a lot of people it's like the it's just things move on so quickly now um that it it becomes i think difficult to build this kind of lasting uh you know like those big you know pillar pieces which you might say oh there's just like it's It's very difficult, maybe aside from events and things like that. There's, you know, its it has to be a constant repetition of the same idea over and over again in a way that grabs people's attention loud enough um or ah disturbing to them enough in a way that's, you know, what you could say controversial or just any way that's going to actually kind of trigger that emotional reaction.

00:11:06

Sonny

And then that just has to be repeated, repeated, repeated constantly for any kind of idea to to actually stick anymore. It's ah the chances of just a ah good idea floating to the top by its own merits after after being mentioned a few times is ah ludicrous.

00:11:24

Sonny

it's It's just not going to happen anymore. I don't think that's that's that's pretty that's a pretty sour view, but maybe, yeah, that's just the way it seems to be going at the moment. and

00:11:35

Andy Grappling

Yeah, i mean, that's the way it is. But I also feel like, again, I'm i'm a bit in a different position. I don't own a gym. I don't make my money from advertising, whatever I do.

00:11:50

Andy Grappling

um I coach at a very small club with a few guys. And we have a fairly familiar relationship. And I'm really happy that it's like this way.

00:12:02

Andy Grappling

So I'm a bit on on a different, in ah in a different position, I guess, than many people. um But I decided that I really don't so' play by these rules, right? i i I made a point to actually make my posts longer.

00:12:16

Andy Grappling

So I said, instead of doing like one slide each post, I mean, I could post basically, the posts I do, they have maybe eight eight slides.

00:12:17

Sonny

mean

00:12:24

Andy Grappling

I could do like eight posts, one slide each.

00:12:27

Sonny

Yeah.

00:12:27

Andy Grappling

and ah But I decided, no, you know what? I don't really care if it's 100 people who read it or 10 or 10,000. ten thousand I really only care about people who cant who actually take the time, who actually are as passionate about as passionate about grappling than I am.

00:12:45

Andy Grappling

And I'm of the opinion if you can only consume something for seven seconds and then lose interest, I really that passionate about it. I really doubt it.

00:12:55

Sonny

Mm-hmm.

00:12:57

Andy Grappling

Because I can listen to, I don't know, episodes you did on on on on on grappling with interesting people. I can listen to what I enjoyed a lot, like the Jack Slack podcast or whatever. And and even outside of grappling, if things interest me, I literally cannot get enough of these things. And I listen to three-hour podcasts and I'm like, fuck, it's it's it's it's already already finished. I want three hours more, right?

00:13:26

Andy Grappling

and And I really care about people like me, basically. Well, like, this is my passion and I enjoy it. And and all the guys who just want their next medal, their next belt and want to share and like in on Instagram. I'm really, I'm ah as fed up as you are.

00:13:47

Andy Grappling

And yeah, I just don't care anymore. So I see where this will lead me, to be honest. um And I'm much more happy if I have like 100 people who really enjoy what I'm doing than 100,000 people who like meme I might produce, which I will never do.

00:14:11

Andy Grappling

it so So I told this, Greg, it's so so so sad. My most viewed and like post of all time was the only meme I ever did.

00:14:21

Sonny

ah I remember it was like the take take down percentage one or something like that.

00:14:23

Andy Grappling

And it's by fact, it's by...

00:14:27

Sonny

Was it, it was a, was it a pie chart or something?

00:14:28

Andy Grappling

No, no, no, no, no. It's like it's the meme where it says, yeah, it was a pie chart where um ah what jujitsu guys grappling in MMA is. And it is this like big pie of jujitsu, then a very small pie of wrestling.

00:14:42

Andy Grappling

Then what wrestling guys think grappling in MMA is this huge pie ah of wrestling and a tiny bit of jujitsu. And then what grappling in MMA actually is, and it's this huge part of pressing people against the fence, and then a tiny bit of wrestling and a tiny bit of jiu-jitsu. And this has, like, by far the most likes, shares, whatever.

00:15:04

Andy Grappling

And this was, like, I literally did it in two minutes. It was just a joke. And it's it's just sad. But I get it, right? Yeah.

00:15:13

Sonny

Look, I'm just going suggest time to repost that content, Andy. Get it back out there. It'll do well on this. It'll do better on the second run through. that's that's the That's the hot tip.

00:15:25

Andy Grappling

yeah okay maybe let's go to something more more joyful and not just so we are just these crumpy catch wrestlers right yeah so so but then we also have to say it's all just catch wrestling okay so maybe i will put a time stamp right here to both of us we just agree we all just to catch wrestling right

00:15:34

Sonny

well Yeah. Yeah. What's that? 15 minutes of grumpy catch wrestlers talking.

00:15:44

Sonny

Yeah, exactly. Nothing. Nothing's reinvented.

00:15:55

Sonny

Well, I will say um to be something on a more positive note then is that ah I am, what I am enjoying most is actually teaching And coaching and like, you know, that part of it is still the most enjoyable part ah for me at the moment, in particular, beginners. I've got a beginners and intermediates program at my gym and

Coaching Philosophy and Methods

00:16:15

Sonny

it is just really focusing on making things as simple and easily understood and digestible as possible.

00:16:22

Sonny

you know, break breaking things down to what is the actual most essential parts of Jiu-Jitsu that these guys need to know in a format that they can digest. in a way that's going to fit with their lives and how often they can attend and the cultural environments that my gym sits in.

00:16:39

Sonny

um And that is actually enjoyable because obviously when people coming in, beginners, intermediates, just watching that progression and just seeing people get better when they're not...

00:16:50

Sonny

um you know, concerned about other things. It's just purely, you know, new hobby time to get better. That is, is very, ah that's very enjoyable and that's pretty cool.

00:17:03

Andy Grappling

Okay, to stick with the teaching maybe, I mean, you have talked on your podcast to I don't know how many coaches and athletes um from very, very highly um yeah highly decorated athletes like Volkanovski, I think was on your podcast, right?

00:17:21

Sonny

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:17:23

Andy Grappling

So UFC champion and they're like extremely um many coaches with high reputation like I don't know, Greg Nelson, ah if I'm correct, was Brock Lesnar's coach and and so on and so on.

00:17:39

Sonny

Yeah.

00:17:41

Andy Grappling

So so a bunch of people, Eric Paulson, whatever, ah and me. So I'm i'm still very honored to be ah among all these people, um which is a bit surreal for me, but whatever.

00:17:46

Sonny

Hey.

00:17:54

Andy Grappling

um So the question i have is, after all these discussions you have had, um How would you say has your coaching changed? What are like the key points, takeaways you took from all these?

00:18:13

Andy Grappling

Maybe there were some episodes or some people who said something that really stuck with you and maybe you can end with or maybe just incorporate somehow how your coaching looks now compared to in the past.

00:18:26

Sonny

Yeah. um Well, of course our conversations Andy, it's pivotal, pivotal stuff.

00:18:32

Andy Grappling

Yes.

00:18:32

Sonny

That's definitely, that's definitely for sure. But you know what, I mean, where I sit now, even after having all those conversations, seeing so many different coaches in in action, like I really think is part of, it is ah probably the most important part is no matter what system or style,

00:18:50

Sonny

that you decide to teach is that the coach itself actually has to believe strongly in it. And I think that that can, you know, perhaps overcome a lot of different, uh, you know, Nick or downsides of any one particular method is just, you know, choosing something, sticking to it and actually having a belief behind it, ah can,

00:19:17

Sonny

you know is is the best foundation before starting to worry about any particular teaching or coaching style or athlete development. And it's it's kind of sounds easy because i'm I'm sure everyone would be like, well, yeah, that's what everyone's doing, right? But they...

00:19:34

Sonny

it Generally, you only need to ask a couple of questions with, I would say, a lot of people. And there's not much underneath the surface other than just this is kind of what I, this was how I was taught or, you know, um I saw someone else do this. There's very little, ah and there's, you know, fewer people that I can, that you can talk to than not who are just,

00:20:00

Sonny

who actually have a, I would say like a, some kind of coherent philosophy or behind why they're actually, or how they're actually teaching at all. Um, which I've found interesting to, to kind of discover.

00:20:14

Sonny

Um, and, but then the people that do other interesting people to talk to, of course, that's where you can really, you know, uh, find out and, and, and learn more, uh,

00:20:27

Sonny

more about their styles and then it should make you at least question, you know, whatever whatever it is you're doing yourself and how much you believe in what in what you're doing yourself. ah and But that's that's kind of where where I'm sitting overall. It's like no matter what you're doing, you've got to actually believe in it and you've got go to actually, um you know, and ah actually you probably don't have to have that underlying philosophy behind it.

00:20:52

Sonny

You can just have that delusional belief. um But the interesting people to talk to are the people actually have a ah solid philosophical underpinning of whatever it is they're doing.

00:21:04

Andy Grappling

um And again, what were there any like things you changed after? although If you compare how you ah you teach before you did a podcast, let's say, and yet yet now years later, is there anything in in particular you would say that that really made an impression on you?

00:21:13

Sonny

Yeah.

00:21:21

Sonny

Yeah. So definitely, i mean, like right now where I'm teaching, I've obviously gone down more constraint-led approach of teaching as much as possibly as much as I possibly can.

00:21:34

Sonny

um remember one of our first conversations when we talked about games really gave me the, you know, made things click and gave me the confidence to, to pursue that area more.

00:21:45

Sonny

um Prior to that, the, my, My introduction to it was actually at university where i was doing it a PE degree, physical ah education, and ah we're introduced to a style of teaching that they called Game Sense.

00:22:02

Sonny

So there was two there was Game Sense and Teaching Games for Understanding. um which are focused a lot of research we've done in australia but they you know games-based styles of teaching it's a constraint-led approach um and ah a lot of it too will come around ways to provide assessment outcomes for so for students uh when you're teaching pe so you actually have a means to measure them against something and and provide assessment and feedback on things so so you know There was an actual use for it we've seen ah you know within teaching other than just purely skill development focus, which of course a lot of the talk is is now. But I'd say i'd still found those things cross over into my current teaching ah methods where you know it's got to be fun.

00:22:48

Sonny

um And I do think that structuring practices in in such a way that do utilize some constraints-based games is print my It's pretty fun. Everyone seems to enjoy it.

00:22:59

Sonny

um yeah You do it right, and it's not just the boring part before free-rolling. Um, so that's certainly something that I've had a big takeaway from, from, from our conversation, one of our early conversations that just kind of really set that, set that in motion.

00:23:15

Sonny

Um, and yeah, I hadn't looked back from there. Another one that came to mind, cause you mentioned Greg Nelson, something I picked up from him. mean, realistically, I've probably picked something up from every single person I've spoken to, but Greg Nelson was,

00:23:28

Sonny

ah like one thing he mentioned other than his amazing but way that he beat this rare form of cancer, which again was just, if we go back to belief, he was just sort of such a positive thinker, like ren ridiculous, like oh yeah that,

00:23:44

Sonny

just rare form of cancer that he beats ends up on the, um, on the cover is like cover of this magazine. Cause it was so rare. It was like the John Hopkins magazine or something, a hospital magazine that you can see. Um, but and his, his mindset was just so positive that he, when he got the diagnosis, didn't read anything about it, just started, you know, the incredible guy.

00:24:06

Sonny

And one thing he said about running his gym it was the, it was ah on the ability to create a culture where kind of all the guys will, girls and girls will help train each other kind of like that. It's, you know, it was, it was clear that he wasn't just putting himself as the head of the gym. He was,

00:24:25

Sonny

You know, the culture that he developed is like, you know, people will hold pads for each other on the weekends and things like that if they need to. So it's, you know, everyone's kind of working together and lifting each other up. And that was something that's kind of stuck with me, um especially from him.

00:24:45

Andy Grappling

Yeah, I mean, but what I picked up a lot is you talked about it making things enjoyable, the culture, um then you you also said that you use a lot of constraints, that approach, or back then it's called Game Sense, and I think there's something I also discussed with Greg in the last episode, is people, I see, I have these stupid discussions about what how to call what and what is best and and and they try to fine-tune an area that without it up has importance but they completely overlook which i believe is to be the most important part is the culture you create the environment in general it's like do people actually

00:25:40

Andy Grappling

enjoy do people trust each other do people have enough freedom to actually experiment tinker around and and and to be honest i believe there are many many great coaches without any theory right

00:25:56

Sonny

and

00:25:56

Andy Grappling

I have seen them and they don't care about if they use a technique or they use a game. but To be honest, games have been around forever and techniques have also been around forever. So I think great coaches just have a feeling how to do stuff and they oftentimes have a way to connect to their group.

00:26:17

Andy Grappling

And what I believe makes them great is that they also are flexible and adapt. And they don't always think like, oh, I have to use only this or that because that's not my theory and my approach and all my community says.

00:26:31

Andy Grappling

And um yeah, so I think like whatever you do, if you if you really care, if you are open and flexible to ah and adapt to the environment or to create and nice a good environment, then whatever.

00:26:49

Andy Grappling

I mean, many people, for example, they they say, show a shower technique they drill and some students might deviate from it try to tinker play and i would say that most coaches wouldn't intervene and say no no no no no that's not what i showed right ah do the technique this way but because i think like even if they show technique some people still um accept or even kind of ah presuppose that people would kind of play with it anyways and then they don't

00:27:18

Sonny

and

00:27:19

Andy Grappling

Maybe they don't really do eco-whatever or CLA, but I still wouldn't say. Maybe if the if the guy has a great environment and great culture, and wouldn't say he's a bad coach because he just focuses on techniques. I mean, it's much more nuanced.

00:27:35

Sonny

is It is. It's very nuanced. But I get what you mean. A lot of these discussions about drilling is you really have to sit down and and then find out what everyone actually is calling drilling. Obviously, no resistance is good. But in practicality, a lot of people will sit there and just troubleshoot some stuff with their friend, whoever their drilling with. What if I do this? What if I do that? And that kind of is going to change things as well. um But it really is – comes down to – the, you know, the culture that the of the of the club, where wherever you're wherever you're training at.

00:28:07

Sonny

And then is like, does, is that kind of going to attract the like yeah like-minded people to produce whatever results that a coach is is looking for? To give one example might be, coach might just want a family-friendly club that kind of has,

00:28:25

Sonny

you know, how you know, that does de decent jits, but is really more inclined for a family environment. They want kids classes, they want moms and dads training with their sons and daughters on the mats and, you know, nice barbecue on the weekend and is so, you know, like they're not trying to win state titles, Andy, you know, or they're not trying to win world titles.

00:28:50

Sonny

um And that is going to, you know, kind of determine what it is that the the outcomes that the coach should be looking for in any given lesson.

00:29:00

Sonny

Obviously, there's always going to need be need for improvement and technical development, but maybe they're going to prioritize a bit more talking, a bit more fun, a bit more, you know, lighthearted. uh, you know, activities instead of what let's just flipped to the other end of school where everyone's goal or the coach's goal is to get people to world titles, ADCC titles. if that is the coach's goal and he wants to try and push the room to that standard, then i guarantee you their idea of a, of a good practice is going to be a lot different than a guy who wants to just run a family gym.

00:29:39

Sonny

and both of them have their place uh there's you know you can't say that one's any better than the other unless you unless you're marking them against their own metrics of why i want a family run gym versus i want to win world titles and then you can count out the world titles and or you can count out how many families are training at a at a certain gym and and and mark them on that um but it's you know that kind of comes down to as well as it at least the coach should have an idea of what it is that they want their gym to be and what it is that they actually want to achieve and what they want to be as a coach so that there is a reflection of that in the students on the mat.

00:30:20

Sonny

um And then then they have a marker themselves that they, are that they ah you know, ah can measure themselves against. If it's, if it's if you know, if everyone just wants to be the best, which of course would be, you know,

00:30:33

Sonny

ah like we did in in the Karate Kid days. it you know The real question really should be the best of what. yeah if it If it is just the local competitions, that's fine. But then, okay, there's there's only ever going to be certain amounts of team titles, team trophies, gold medals to be handed out. you know you Then you you really have to look at how you're able to attract new students to develop talent.

00:31:00

Sonny

or retain students to develop talent once you've actually got them. And then you also have to look at if you're going to be recruiting students. um you know If there's more established people that you might be trying to build a club that people want to come over and start training with because that's um that's your stated goals.

00:31:20

Sonny

And then this comes down to things where you're geographically located. ah Is there going to be a big enough population to for in the town that you're in to achieve the goals that you want to achieve? these These kind of things have become so ah you know multifaceted that it's like, well, you know, the results can ah ah can be taken aside. And it's just really, in my my idea, it's more important that the coach actually has an idea of what it is that they want to know what that they want to achieve and can they achieve that.

00:31:52

Andy Grappling

Yeah, exactly. And I think we talked about this in the past in one of your episodes on your podcast is I really highly dislike this elitism of competitors because I want that as many people on this planet do some form of grappling as possible because I really love it.

Grappling's Deep Connection to Human History

00:32:14

Andy Grappling

And I truly believe it's much more than a sport because, I mean, Animals do grapple, children grapple naturally. So there is something, i but i would say, in everybody that that it is just a form of human behavior that is much, much, much, much older than the conception of competition, sports, rule sets, or even older than humanity. I mean, I often share these these these these clips of even reptiles.

00:32:45

Andy Grappling

grappling right and these these are evolutionary like millions millions of years um away from us humans so it's all literally than mankind so and it's not just a sport but when we shift and say oh everything is about the next Gordon Ryan who is winning medals who is doing what to compete at the highest level I think like you said it's completely missing the point that I believe that Yeah, not everybody can be a world champion.

00:33:17

Andy Grappling

And more importantly, not everybody should even want to be a world champion. Because I believe that if if if everybody would try to be a world champion, everybody is a professional athlete, then society quite literally couldn't function.

00:33:33

Andy Grappling

And this this this is an extreme case. but but But in my mind, which is obviously... a bit romantic and it's not going to happen.

00:33:44

Andy Grappling

I want that everybody on this planet could go to grappling class and enjoy grappling while still being a great a great parent, being great at the job or however they contribute to society, be a decent person and not just focus everything they do to be especially efficient and effective in rolling around on the floor in a certain way to achieve certain points in a certain artificial route.

00:34:18

Andy Grappling

um And so what all I'm trying to say is not only cannot everybody ah be world champion, I truly believe most people even shouldn't care.

00:34:31

Andy Grappling

And also, please don't don't put everybody who is a competitor on a pedestal. They are not better better people. I would argue, depending on how you define it many are not even better grapplers because they are so overly focused on a specific rule set.

00:34:45

Andy Grappling

Yeah. yeah

00:34:49

Sonny

Yeah, that's, I mean, it's interesting that, you know, we but I mean, we've seen wrestlers come into jujitsu recently and hang with top guys, you know, hang with top guys. Still haven't seen many jujitsu guys take the take the step into wrestling and and hang with them in the ah in their rule set. But, yeah.

00:35:11

Sonny

um um you know unless Unless I'm missing something, Andy, do you know of any of any cases? Or and maybe they couldn't get a start in in particular promo. Or I guess there's no real ah pro shows for wrestling, really, where that kind of thing could take place. But have you noticed any that I'm missing?

00:35:31

Andy Grappling

No, I think you don't missing ah some. The only people who one could say are Jiu-Jitsu Taros or whatever and and do well in wrestling are people who actually do ball.

00:35:45

Andy Grappling

So I think this this kid from from New Wave, I think Dorian, whatever, i forgot that I don't really follow the Jiu-Jitsu competition scene anymore.

00:35:47

Sonny

Yeah.

00:35:58

Andy Grappling

I think this guy, he's like high-level high school wrestler, probably soon to be in college and does Jiu-Jitsu, right? So that's a little bit different.

00:36:05

Sonny

Yeah, that's different.

00:36:06

Andy Grappling

ah but But it's not the same as many people who have done a bunch of wrestling and just go cold turkey into Jiu-Jitsu and do good, actually. That's not the same.

00:36:17

Sonny

Yeah, which is interesting. And I mean, I guess that's what, you know, if they could, they would win ADCC, which yeah initially was supposed to find the best submission grappling styles, which has just all merged into what what what adds has the banner now of jiu-jitsu.

00:36:35

Sonny

Although it's obviously what jiu-jitsu is has changed so so much over over the years, which to which is the benefit and to the credit of jiu-jitsu, I will say.

00:36:35

Andy Grappling

Yeah.

00:36:48

Andy Grappling

I mean, at this point I have to say, because I always come back to this point, mostly on my posts and start and stories on Instagram, but also on podcasts, is please, can we use different language and different rule sets?

00:37:04

Andy Grappling

Because Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, it's so...

00:37:09

Sonny

doesn't exist.

00:37:10

Andy Grappling

yeah I mean, Jiu-Jitsu, it has nothing to do with Japanese anything anymore than what really is Brazilian about it, other than the fact that some Brazilians might have started the movement. I mean, it's like people don't say, apart from Americans, they also are very nationalistic about their sports, like American football, but people don't say, i don't know, British tennis, right? It's it's just stupid. Why do you say it's British tennis?

00:37:36

Andy Grappling

I mean... so So I would argue um wrestling is, again, age old. You will find on every continent, in every culture, you will find ah form of wrestling 100% guarantee.

00:37:54

Andy Grappling

And I really looked into this a lot. And even in the English language, wrestling and grappling with were basically just synonyms for each other. so so So there was no distinction.

00:38:06

Andy Grappling

And then it just happened to be the case with jutsu. And then one had to make the differentiation between oh so grappling and and wrestling. and And that's fine because I think right now if we speak of wrestling, people don't think of submissions, which I again think is a shame and a misrepresentation because submissions in wrestling don't only go back to catch wrestling.

00:38:28

Andy Grappling

But even way, way further, we know we know for a fact that in ancient Greece, They use submissions in wrestling. So you call it wrestling. We know for a fact that the Indian style or the Iranian style incorporated ah joint blocks.

00:38:42

Andy Grappling

Still call it wrestling. so so So the whole notion that wrestling for some reason doesn't include submissions is completely new. But I'm fine with that. let's Let's keep the distinction. But maybe then let's use the term grappling. That's why I choose it as ah as as recognizing that this form of engaging with another person is very old, very are prevalent in many cultures, has a strong historical, cultural and and anthrop anthropological root.

00:39:19

Andy Grappling

And it has nothing to do with Orientalism. We don't have to give belts. We don't have to call it Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, Kendo, whatever. And it has nothing to do with a certain nation like Brazilian and definitely not with a specific family.

00:39:38

Andy Grappling

And that's why I'm 100%. Let's move on, create new rule sets and make this grappling or submission wrestling. I think that's like one one one of the most ah ah of the things I'm most passionate about, even more so than coaching or sharing my ideas on coaching.

00:40:00

Sonny

Yeah, and I agree with you there. um i guess i guess now where I'd sit would be that four... for that will happen through jiu-jitsu as we know it at the moment.

00:40:15

Sonny

I think that will be the evolution of where it will eventually head.

00:40:18

Andy Grappling

Thank

00:40:20

Sonny

um it i Because i I think the way that it's set up now in being the most successful form of, at least commercially successful form of grappling um in the world, ah would like with without a doubt, um has been jiu-jitsu,

00:40:39

Sonny

or the roots from Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I think the way that it is set up to encompass that, ah like any new influences and to be marketed in in such a way, I think that any kind of reform is is just going to take place from within the sport itself.

00:40:59

Sonny

I just think it'll be so hard to have any, if if you know what I mean, like ah the an outside influence. It's just like jujitsu has to become just grappling. And then those movements is kind of what we see with, you know, with the no-gi split um that's kind of...

00:41:17

Sonny

been happening with pro shows and you know, it's, it it is just heading that way. The CJI with different rules. And I mean, you could say the, the amount of different rules sets that you can actually compete under it's, you know, it it might be c j could be the one that does it. Um, but I think it eventually it would be way it's set up to be marketed and commercialized. It will happen through jujitsu itself.

00:41:45

Andy Grappling

Yeah, um you mentioned CGI.

00:41:48

Sonny

Thank you.

00:41:49

Andy Grappling

um Yeah, I think in the end, um one organization, one person, Craig Jones, has to really say, okay, we don't even call it Jiu-Jitsu. We make big steps. We make maybe something like literally don't know guard pulling and still throw money at it, right?

00:42:09

Andy Grappling

Because this, of course, is a huge risk because, um yeah, people, Jiu-Jitsu community is huge. But I think if the CGI would incorporate a really high dynamic um rule set where there's more what we both would say is like grappling or submission wrestling, but there is the incentive of payment for athletes, I think it would take like one or two years and then we would have submission wrestling or grappling be the major or a major sport.

00:42:33

Sonny

Mm-hmm.

00:42:41

Andy Grappling

I think many people often think like, oh, I'm... i'm but we were criticizing jutsu left and right people have to be really um conscious about the fact i'm not saying i want to get rid of prison jutsu i'm not saying i want to take away your cookies from you i'm saying i want an alternative for people like me people like sonny and i even talked about greg with this uh greg sodas and i even talked with craig the one with c jones about this many people actually would enjoy grappling sport which is way more in the wrestling kind of sphere where the guard really isn't as much as a major thing and let's be honest we can call it whatever we we like like adcc submission fighting it's just jujitsu right now so there have to be a massive change somewhere

00:43:32

Sonny

Yeah. And I think, you know, as, as as it currently lays, it's going to be if any, if anyone is going to do that, it's going to be Craig Jones and CJI. I mean, I know at one point you, uh, maybe went back and back and forth with him on, on some ruleset ideas. I don't know if that's something you can, you can talk about, but I think from a promotional perspective to something to, to get it across would be to open up the talent, uh, you know, talent acquisition of,

00:43:59

Sonny

potential, you know, current wrestling, you know, national wrestling programs for freestyle and, and, uh, Gregor Roman and, and Judeo cause all these high level athletes,

00:44:11

Sonny

that don't that have to you know start from ah start from scratching jujitsu which we're starting to see you know a few few more come over now that the paydays are getting there from american folk style wrestling but if you know if there is a ah rule set that one that the jujitsu guys definitely have to have an advantage in because otherwise they're not going to do it If they don't think that they have a major advantage in winning, um they're not going to give up what they're what they've currently built for ah for other people to come and and and take advantage of.

00:44:47

Sonny

But then also, you know, just enough of a chance of the current, a you know, crop of, you know, elite level wrestlers to be able to learn and, you know,

00:45:00

Sonny

and win as well. um You know, if if there's a rule set that would that would work for that, I think that would be very exciting, very entertaining. And the talent acquisition thing, you'd be able to pull a lot of people from obviously, you know, Japan, India, all different parts of the world um who, you know, who who are going to bring audiences with them. At least you'd hope we'll bring audiences with them. I don't know.

00:45:25

Sonny

I haven't checked out how many Instagram followers some of these ah Japanese Olympic wrestlers have got, but but you know I think it's a it's an idea with merit.

00:45:36

Andy Grappling

Yeah. I mean, you mentioned um American folk style or college wrestling. um I think this is is a great point because, ah one, we already have seen a bunch of those guys compete in some form of grappling already. I mean, Bo Nickel obviously match with Ron Ryan and also Craig Kirkfleet, and I think Jason Nolfe was the other guy they started at CGI.

00:46:02

Sonny

Yeah.

00:46:04

Andy Grappling

So they're obviously now Helen Maroulis, IBJF, so there is obviously a big crossover already. And I think the the um important perspective here is that Penn State, for example, they already have gym on campus for the transition to MMA.

00:46:28

Andy Grappling

And I see here the big chance for grappling to come in, to be honest, because what I see is oftentimes wrestlers, they want to go to m MMA.

00:46:41

Andy Grappling

And then what they do is they say, okay, I can do takedowns, hold people down. And they do jujitsu classes. And I'm like, really? I don't know if if you should reinvent the wheel.

00:46:56

Andy Grappling

But if there is literally a system in place with um also competition where it's like, take what's already in wrestling, what we already know is very, very more effective in m MMA than pure Jiu-Jitsu. Because let's be honest, if we will look at but wrestling and MMA, it looks a lot more than American folk are wrestling than Jiu-Jitsu nowadays.

00:47:25

Andy Grappling

So we already know it transitions better and more to MMA for these guys. So the only question we have to ask then is how do we incorporate submissions and submission defense into that system?

00:47:38

Andy Grappling

And I think that can be easily done. Again, we just have to call it something differently than Jiu-Jitsu. And then I think it also makes sense for these professional athletes who want to keep ah competing in a common sport to go from for Excel wrestling to let's just call it submission wrestling to MMA.

00:47:59

Andy Grappling

So there's a clear pathway.

00:47:59

Sonny

Right.

00:48:02

Andy Grappling

And if we can make this submission wrestling thing, rule set, competition, whatever, also in some ways financially um relevant to these people who are not yet pro m MMA fighters, I think then you have a perfectly

00:48:22

Andy Grappling

linear pathway from between wrestling, jiu-jitsu, submission wrestling and MMA. So it would be like if you're like a wrestler, you can transcend, let's say, in a more complete way to submission wrestling.

00:48:38

Andy Grappling

Same for jiu-jitsu. If you want to just make your circle a little bit bigger, go to true submission wrestling, and then you're just the striking away from MMA. And I think right now we have wrestling, we have jiu-jitsu,

00:48:53

Andy Grappling

And the way they don't really transition linearly directly into m MMA, and I think this step kind of is missing, and I think there's this is exactly what I try to do in my gym, kind of creating this kind of style, but we right now we don't have competitions, right? So actually today in two hours I will go to a jiu-jitsu competition, even though I absolutely hate jiu-jitsu because there is no submission wrestling competition.

00:49:22

Andy Grappling

then in the end of the year we will actually go to the Freestyle Wrestling League. Again, because the people want to wrestle also, but we don't have the submission wrestling competitions.

00:49:27

Sonny

Cool.

00:49:32

Andy Grappling

yeah

00:49:33

Sonny

Yeah, that's actually like, you yeah if you want to stick to competition goals, it's like that is a cool competition goal where it's like, I want a guy that can, i want to develop grapplers who can go and hang or place or medal or get golds the ah jujitsu wrestling, you know different forms of wrestling and maybe judo comps or something like that, where it's like, that is, you know, it's not necessarily world champions in either one, but it's like, man, i just want to create well-rounded people who can multi-sport athletes who compete in different one in different grappling disciplines or different grappling rule sets i should say and uh and and be decent at it it's like who is to say that there's anything wrong with that and that that is not a worthy goal to pursue i mean that is just as as good as as anything else and isn't in fact probably more novel from than a lot of other people just following the the same old path of

00:50:32

Sonny

you know, want wanting to be the best, the best of around.

Sonny's Martial Arts Journey

00:50:36

Sonny

Nothing's going to ever keep us down.

00:50:40

Andy Grappling

Yeah, for sure. All right. Maybe we circle back a little bit, completely to a different topic, or maybe not that different, to just go back to the beginning.

00:50:52

Andy Grappling

I wanted to interview you, and then we just kind of ah cruised into a different topics. So and let's go back to Sonny Brown.

00:50:59

Sonny

Yeah, dude.

00:51:03

Andy Grappling

um ha How did you start your martial arts journey?

00:51:11

Sonny

Oh, let's go back way back. um So I actually, ah so probably, I mean, one of the formative experiences I had that that led into martial arts was viciously attacked on the streets of my hometown after a house party one evening that left me with a ah fractured skull and a hematoma or blood clot on my brain, subdural,

00:51:42

Sonny

hematoma and definitely shattered my ah confidence, shall we say. um So that was just, yeah.

00:51:51

Andy Grappling

It was intense.

00:51:54

Sonny

Oh, mate, I was ah was covered in blood head to toe.

00:51:55

Andy Grappling

But keep going.

00:51:57

Sonny

I remember quite clearly just looking at myself in the mirror and just not knowing. There was a big chunk of time I missed. I remember just waking waking up kilometers from where i had ah last remembered. But anyway...

00:52:11

Sonny

um That's in the past now. But that, you know, that kind of, it certainly led me to ah to a point where I was, you know, lacking confidence when I was just out in public, I would say.

00:52:22

Sonny

um And martial arts had always been something that obviously growing up in the, you know, 80s and 90s, there was a lot of that around in television in various different forms, movies and and whatnot. So it was always something somewhat somewhat appealing.

00:52:37

Sonny

And then with the i saw the initial UFCs, like UFC 2 or 3 or something, which was just, you know, again, was pretty young. It was pretty cool. And then eventually, you know, around the time, or what you know, Ultimate Fighter and all that. well when So 2007, however, that place is with the UFC, was when I first started training.

00:52:56

Sonny

And I knew that I wanted to do a... mixed martial arts essentially. I was going to go jujitsu, but then i was lucky enough to find a gym um that was the first in Sydney that that did mixed martial arts or shoot fighting.

00:53:12

Sonny

And that was just down the road from from where I lived. ah So I was able to join up there and just kind of that was joined up with a mate. It's often fine. There'll generally be two people come in and start training together and then one person probably keeps training longer than the other.

00:53:30

Sonny

um And just to go.

00:53:31

Andy Grappling

ah Quickly, only how old were you?

00:53:35

Sonny

Man, I think it was 24, to be honest, um like 23, 24, which seems crazy now.

00:53:38

Andy Grappling

Okay.

00:53:43

Sonny

I've just turned. <unk>s so we can do People can do the math and check and check this because don't know how it works out. ah it works out

00:53:49

Andy Grappling

So it it was like five years ago, right? Because you look like in your late twenty s

00:53:51

Sonny

yeah Yeah, exactly, mate. Exactly. It's like, geez, time flies. um So, yeah. it's ah And then I just started training for – I just started training Muay Thai, Muay Thai kickboxing, what was shoot fighting classes and Jiu-Jitsu, Gi Jiu-Jitsu all at the same time.

00:54:17

Sonny

And the shoot fighting classes at at the gym were the just MMA classes, what you would call an MMA class now, um which was just a mix of of standing and takedowns and groundwork.

00:54:31

Sonny

um And that was really just as a you know just as ah as a hobby in in some respects that just has snowballed now into... many different facets of, of ah life and a career as well, which is crazy.

00:54:52

Andy Grappling

so So basically you started kind of with MMA straight away, right?

00:54:57

Sonny

Definitely.

00:54:58

Andy Grappling

So a little bit of Jiu-Jitsu before.

00:54:58

Sonny

Yeah.

00:55:00

Sonny

Yep.

00:55:01

Andy Grappling

Okay.

00:55:01

Sonny

Um, yeah. So, and it was, it just started off, uh, just training MMA and then, or just all of it. And then eventually the first, can't remember if I did a jujitsu competition first or I definitely, I remember, well, at least I remember actually the first jujitsu competition I was late to and missed. So it was really the second competition that I got to, I got to compete in. Um,

00:55:27

Sonny

remember for some for some reason they'd put me in the brown belt division. um I think they got my name confused with my belt rank. So hi hi um I won the first match with straight armbar, which I'd never done before, and then got re-naked choked, I think, in second one in in jujitsu.

00:55:34

Andy Grappling

except

00:55:48

Sonny

um But I definitely remember quite specifically the first amateur ah amateur MMA match, which was a shooter match for Shooter Australia. It was put on by Larry Papadopoulos, who competed in Shooter himself and was running Shooter Australia.

00:56:04

Sonny

And there was there's a group of us, I think it was four of us or something, and the coach, Anthony Lang, was just like, you know, want to have a fight? And I was like, okay, let's do it. So that was about after six months of training.

00:56:18

Sonny

And I won ah that match, the amateur one, put the guy to sleep with a triangle choke. And I think he was like 4-0 in kickboxing or Muay Thai or something like that, was in a or won an Australian championship or went on to win an Australian championship or something like it was like a decent guy. Everyone was surprised I won. So it was...

00:56:38

Sonny

um And yeah, and then so then that led to eventually then having another professional fight while always simultaneously competing in jiu jitsu and then the the fights just kept going.

00:56:53

Sonny

and For a while, that was definitely my number one goal was MMA competition in life.

00:56:55

Andy Grappling

Thank

00:57:02

Sonny

And but was so I'll say this is my marker that it was my number one goal. I never quit my job and and went all in, which ah my roommate had ah did at the time, um which is probably one one level. But I would say I structured my entire life around it to the point where I...

00:57:20

Sonny

the jobs and the the job that i was having to work to support uh training did uh was only there to support training in terms of i i gave up other career opportunities to prioritize the training of of mixed martial arts for many years of my life which may not seem like much to some, but I've known now a lot of people who wanted to make fighting their passion or career or was their hobby who were never willing to do that.

00:57:52

Sonny

um It was always, i have a work shift at this time when it's the question is, how bad do you want to actually win this fight? you won You get a new job where you don't have a work shift at that time. um And not a lot of people are actually willing to make that sacrifice. So,

00:58:07

Sonny

That's kind of how I would explain where it fit into my life for a good, don't know, five five, six or seven years or something. where it was That was kind of the the most important thing in in life to to potentially achieve the most I could out of any given opportunity, really.

00:58:30

Andy Grappling

Okay, but you don't have to be so humble. if i If I remember correctly, you are the Australian champion of of something, right?

00:58:33

Sonny

comes

00:58:37

Sonny

Three-time Australian champion. Yeah, so that and that was a crazy part. I was i was lucky enough the people that I did win the belt over two. One of them was Dan Hooker, who's fighting this weekend or a couple weeks against Justin Gaethje for the BMF.

00:58:51

Sonny

Maybe it's for the BMF title. I don't know. If it's not, probably should be because both those guys are crazy. So that's a good name. Another guy, Damian Brown, good fighter, who um ah made it to the UFC. I fought another guy, Bernardo Treco. I lost to him, who though, who's also fought in the UFC. So I was able to put...

00:59:08

Sonny

um some good Some good runs on the board and picked up three belts at the time along the way. um you know so was at you know At times I was ranked, obviously, you know there was one there was a fight matrix ranker, um which is kind of, I guess, there's topology or some other stuff that will put rankings on.

00:59:31

Sonny

um do worldwide rankings. I remember there was one time I was ranked number two behind George Sotiropoulos, who was obviously hard to beat because he was in the UFC at the time. So like, you know, I know those, those metrics, ah there was obviously tough lots of tough guys out there. um Some of them who I didn't have the opportunity to fight, but it's still, you know, um i'm I'm still proud of what I was able to achieve from where I came from.

00:59:55

Sonny

And ah I, I still think as, And I'm proud of it, man. That's for sure. Because ah now as i as I've had more time in it, I know a lot of people who don't even make it to 11 professional fights.

01:00:10

Sonny

ah A lot of talented people who now that I've seen, that this makes me kind of recognize what I was able to do um and just take a bit more pride in it.

01:00:21

Sonny

is that a lot there's I've seen so many now talented athletes who have athletically gifted, skilled, able to you know perform in competition. Yeah.

01:00:37

Sonny

But yet some them don't even get it out of amateurs. like Life comes along and and gets in the way. um you know ah Let alone you know get get a couple of professional wins on the board or get a certain amount of professional fights.

01:00:50

Sonny

A lot of people may even struggle to get to a professional, have have a professional fight at all of... you know, the right job comes along, the right girl comes along and you just, you see so many people come and go, so many people come and go or an injury gets in the way and ends it.

01:01:10

Sonny

There's so many people come and Um, so I'd always looked at what I'd, I'd done probably is, you know, that's just, it's decent, um, regional type, type thing. It's all good. Um, but, and I think I've probably can take a bit more pride in that now that I've seen just so many people do not even get that far at all.

01:01:29

Sonny

um And then it it's also makes it put put up on a pedestal. The guys who have like the Volkanovskys or Whittakers, you know, all the guys who are the best in the world is like, damn, the amount of of things that that just have to fall into place and everything is just it's just incredible.

01:01:50

Sonny

what the And the sacrifices that they would have had to magic is just absolutely incredible.

01:01:57

Andy Grappling

So just to clarify, maybe I didn't pick it up. Did you win or lose against Dan Hooker?

01:02:03

Sonny

I won. I got him with an anaconda choke.

01:02:05

Sonny

in i won. I got him with an anaconda choke in round two.

01:02:05

Andy Grappling

Oh.

01:02:07

Andy Grappling

Sonny Brown beat Dan Hooker.

01:02:10

Sonny

Yeah.

01:02:10

Andy Grappling

Okay, so...

01:02:10

Sonny

I'll tell you that there's a good story or the, that how that actually fight took a place is I was fighting on the undercard of that. There was a four fight tournament for a promotion called rise MMA in Australia where they had,

01:02:25

Sonny

um four fighters in on the show before and I had a fight on that card and one and then they were fighting in the finals for the for the lightweight title um and I was fighting on the undercard I would think I was originally fit scheduled to face a guy called Larson who I remember as being notable because he was Gunnar Nelson's first opponent um and my so it was me fighting on the undercard but the person who was originally scheduled to fight Dan Hooker was my main training partner Rob Hill um So we were done the camp together and we're going, went up to Queensland together. And Rob had at the time he'd recently come back from,

01:03:04

Sonny

I'm pretty sure it was the HIIT camp with Matt Hughes. He went and spent a couple of months over there and had some new weight cutting strategy that didn't ah take ah that didn't work out. And so he weighs in um a couple of kilograms. i actually, I can't remember how many kilograms, but weighs in over the weight limit. And ah that was ah that was actually when I learned about the towel the towel gate technique because my coach Anthony was like, right, what we're going to have we know Rob's coming in a bit over, is we're going to have to get the towel, hold it in front of Rob and Rob, you push it push your head you know push push a bit of weight down on it. I think this is probably like 2009 or something like that.

01:03:45

Sonny

um And we tried to we tried to do the towel technique and Steve Percival, who was the referee, just's just ripsed the towel because Rob hadn't stripped down naked to even require a tower, which don't for better or worse for is is what it is.

01:03:59

Sonny

um But so then they, so Rob's weighed in overweight and then they um they have a discussion about what they're going to do. And at the time the precedent hadn't been set that if one one person's overweight, one person can win the title and the other, but the other person can't.

01:04:15

Sonny

So it was like, so the discussion was, well, we can't have a title fight if someone's overweight, they want to put a title fight on. I've weighed in at lightweight on the undercard. um they take me out onto the side of the road and it was like rocky moment of sunny you want to fight for the title i'm like actually first thing i was i first s thing swear i was like what about rob cared about my mate and then like he's mate he's overweight and so i said yeah let's do it um and i remember walking away that evening ah like all pumped up and my coach he did he goes fuck yeah he's like they don't know how good you are sonny

01:04:32

Andy Grappling

Thank you.

01:04:49

Sonny

Um, because of course they were, I'm pretty sure Dan who was with Carl Weber at the time. Um, and of course they would be more confident, um, that the guy from the undercard versus the guy, uh, Rob, who was, who was, you know, won his way into the tournament. Of course they're going to have more confidence there.

01:05:07

Sonny

Um, So I remember we went in the like hotel room or something that night. We drilled a bunch of stuff because we knew that Dan Hooker had, it was like a really good guillotine, I think at the time, really good guillotine, really good re-naked choke.

01:05:22

Sonny

And with a really good jab, I think, was the three things I kind of remember drilling. So we drilled like guillotine escapes, re-naked choke escapes, and then it was just slipping the jab, i believe. Slipping jab right would be right hand was the main techniques.

01:05:35

Sonny

These were just in the hotel the night before, like, like can let's go. Oh, and then then and actually, i remember the day of... i was yeah sick, sick as everything. I remember doing like a a decongestion thing, like a Vicks VapoRub thing where you you know put your head in a bowl of hot water or over the top of a bowl of hot water, try and clear your lungs out that day.

01:05:57

Sonny

Like i was I was not good at all um for that fight. but ah But I remember... like, I mean, Dan landed a lot of big shots on me.

01:06:10

Sonny

He, he fricking marked me up good, but I do remember a couple of, a couple of key moments was one, one actually was when I remember lifting him up on one side of the cage, running him to the other, like Matt Hughes, uh, and dumping him in my corner, which I remember like I was seeing him at Hughes at the time, like how to, how to drop him.

01:06:29

Sonny

That was cool.

01:06:29

Andy Grappling

Thank

01:06:30

Sonny

Um, I remember there was couple like, he definitely hit us heaps with it with his jab. I remember slipping, um hitting, ah landing some big, some shots there, but there was probably all happened in round two. And unfortunately video of this doesn't,

01:06:44

Sonny

uh that wasn't filmed or whatever that was this was pre when it was super easy to film i guess which sucks um although although my friends did have a camera in the crowd but they only got like 14 seconds of it because and i was so annoyed but they're like we're too excited to keep it on like that was that was the That was just at the the style at the time to not actually film everything, unfortunately.

01:07:10

Sonny

um But I do remember, i think it was the second round where the ah at least it got really deep guillotine, escaped the guillotine, and then there was a really deep rear naked choke attempt ah that I escaped as well. And I remember Rob yelling out, just peel the top pan, peel the top pan, got out of that rear naked choke attempt. and and And I remember as he's on the ground,

01:07:34

Sonny

looking and it was like, that was, he'd used, uh, all his energy in those submission attempts. And that's when I managed to get a um, anaconda choke when he, uh, I assume it was when it was just wrestling back up. So, and, uh, that was a good feeling. It was, it was elation and, uh, that was a, that was a really good night, that one.

01:07:55

Sonny

Um, so, and of course I, you know, it was just an unexpected, well, like, wow, what a weekend. um just a good time so was I mean I'm happy to have had that experience and it's it's crazy the what Dan has gone on to be able to do um as well as like damn that's that's taken it to a whole nother level um which is awesome to see and to to be honest but So many years later, we I think we you know hung out a bit on one of the Legend FC cards and he's a good guy. It was some wild times on Legend FC. So yeah, that was that was a really good experience to have.

01:08:37

Sonny

um And I remember then going back into work on Monday because I just put in a leave. I was working at a school in the IT department, Andy. I put in a leave request to go compete on. I remember what I wrote down.

01:08:50

Sonny

martial arts competition for leave request for like the friday so we could go to wayne so i would just put in a leave request through my do my camp and then fly up on friday take friday i'll fly up and then go back to work monday um and yeah i came back to work monday with with the black eye thought could be two black eyes and was was just like um yeah i wasn't just up there breaking boards uh was right But that actually happened a couple of times over the time where my working career where I would just walk up to the office fight club style just with black eyes.

01:09:28

Sonny

And yeah I felt you always learn something about about people, Andy, because ah and your relationship with them because it was who would ask you how you got the black eye and who would pretend they that it doesn't exist and be awkward about it. you know And it was always something interesting.

01:09:47

Andy Grappling

Well, I mean, just this sounds like a pretty inspiring story, to be honest. I mean, you you started your journey with like this really intense and bad experience where you basically got mugged and beaten up, and in the end, you beat Dan Hooker and become a three-time Australian MMA champion.

01:09:57

Sonny

Yeah.

01:10:01

Sonny

Yeah.

01:10:08

Andy Grappling

And I can assure you, even if there is no no no tape of what you did, I'm pretty sure that the the the urban legend of Sony Brown will survive through the vocal tradition through generations to come, pretty sure.

01:10:25

Sonny

Well, this might be this might be the first time I've ever told such a complete retelling of it, Andy. This could be it. This could be the...

01:10:31

Andy Grappling

Yeah, now it's out.

01:10:33

Sonny

ah

01:10:34

Andy Grappling

It will never leave the the hive mind of the Internet. So for all for all ah eternity, your legend will survive. And and then this also gets me to to the to the but very important point.

01:10:43

Sonny

ah

01:10:48

Andy Grappling

If we just do the MMA math, then probably you are the next in line for the BMF title shot. If Dan Hooker wins, right?

01:10:58

Sonny

Oh, yeah, mate. I'm um um'm ready to go. That's ah that's um what's BMF stand for again? Beers, ah you know, Mexican food and Mexican food fajitas.

01:11:12

Sonny

Something like that, buddy. I'm ready i'm ready to go.

01:11:16

Andy Grappling

Yeah. Okay, so so now we talked about Sonny, the ah professional athlete and the BMF. um How um did it did did you transition into coaching? When did it happen? Was it like, did you do both? that you so So how did all this evolve?

01:11:36

Sonny

Yeah. So I remember, so I remember quite specifically after my last MMA fight where I'm like, well, I'm not going to compete in MMA anymore. I want to start coaching, which my last m MMA fight was, i wasn't in a good place mentally when I took a fight, um, which was just issues, uh, with my fiance at the time, just all sorts of, uh, miscarriages, things like that that. It was just, things were not good.

01:12:04

Sonny

Um, and i broke my arm in the fight blocking a kick maybe i had turned my wrist out and it was against southpaw so an open stance and then wailed in a heavy kick and my arm uh my arm broke uh clean through the bone i think radius uh radial bone um just broke clean through and i continued to fight for a few minutes after my arm was broken i had seen the footage back of that once i try and shake it out um so again you know that's where it's like yeah i may not achieve world champion status or gone into ufc or anything but i'll put my axe over what i've actually did fighting from where i came from which is probably not someone very you know athletically gifted

01:12:51

Sonny

Or not someone you would look at and assume could be any good at at fighting and what I've been able to to do and then um i would <unk>d I'd stand behind that, which is again, it's more than a lot of ah lot of people are able to do themselves.

01:13:05

Sonny

um And then same, I put it to a lot of people that they probably when they broke out, break their arm in the middle of a fight, they'd probably stop. um You know, or that would be the end of the match. And for me, it was not I was, you know, I did have a level of grit that I was able to continue fighting.

01:13:21

Sonny

um It may not have been the smartest idea, Andy, for multiple for multiple minutes afterwards.

01:13:26

Andy Grappling

with this.

01:13:29

Sonny

you know if you if you you're to be dumb, you' got to be tough, I guess. Because ah because i and i ended up did getting knocked out did end up getting knocked out. because And I did defend, the guy went for an armbar on the arm that was broken. And that was probably the moment um as i'm as I'm clamping my hands in in ah in a gable grip and the guy's pulling ah on my arm from ah from side mount to try and separate my grip so he can ah potentially break the arm, which he didn't know was already broken.

01:14:03

Sonny

That was probably the moment where I decided it's a better idea to move into the coaching role.

01:14:03

Andy Grappling

thank

01:14:08

Sonny

I'd say it was very, very pivotal that coaching would be a better option than continuing to compete. um So anyway, ends up, i got I got up from that, escaped that number, got up, but I did get it.

01:14:20

Andy Grappling

specific Short shots. Um, well, how many years after you started was this roughly so we can have a timeline.

01:14:26

Sonny

Man, I'd have to have a look. it It feels like five or six, I guess.

01:14:31

Andy Grappling

Okay.

01:14:32

Sonny

So like, you know, obviously at the time it felt felt like longer, but now like looking back, on the actual, on on the record. It's like, and you, of course, back then too, five or six was a lot more of my life, a larger percentage of my life.

01:14:46

Sonny

Um, whereas now it's like, okay, that was a good, that was a good moment in time. Um, that, that, you know, that, that slips through the, uh, like sands through the hourglass. the days of our lives type moments, um,

01:15:00

Sonny

But I think, so yeah, let's let's have a quick look. So what was that? 2008 to 2016. So, okay, eight years. um Yeah, so, you know, that that's a good chunk actually.

01:15:11

Sonny

That's almost a decade. What am I saying? um

01:15:14

Andy Grappling

Thank you.

01:15:16

Sonny

sir um So after that, I get knocked out, knocked out cold. um And I had previous, the last, the previous two I'd been knocked out as well. probably not good for brain, uh, brain health.

01:15:29

Sonny

And that was one thing, even actually when I started fighting, it wasn't necessarily a recommended activity from someone who'd had, ah the brain trauma I did have when I was attacked in the street. I remember there was one doctor was like, like, if you ever get knocked out, stop doing it.

01:15:43

Sonny

Um, but you know, Hey, Hey, where, where, where we're at anyway. Um, so, and I remember the drive home. So that was in Wollongong,

01:15:55

Sonny

where I had that flight and I drove on my, uh, fiance at the time drove me from Wollongong to, ah Sydney, which is about an hour and a half in the hour and a half, two hours in the car, um, with the, with the broken arm, which, which definitely sucked. That was a moment to really think about things.

01:16:16

Sonny

Um, cause I, I didn't tell anyone I had a broken arm until I walked got up, other bloke gets his hand raised, got up, walk backstage, get down, sit down with the doc and just said, hey, I got a, my arm is broken. And they're like are you sure? i'm like, it's definitely broken.

01:16:30

Sonny

The point of the pain where it is was there was no other way it couldn't, and it was definite it was definitely broken. So anyway, so that was a ah long drive ah Rob again, my main training partner and coach helped us. They did a cast or not a cast. They did a sling with a, believe it was a coat hanger or something. And i hopped in the car, fiance at the time drives us, you know, like an hour and a half, two hours to the hospital.

01:16:58

Sonny

um And they ended up putting ah two plates and nine pins back in. So it was like surgery that night. And goes through all of that, I'm like, you know what?

01:17:09

Sonny

let's start, let's move to coaching. um You know, cause I did love the sport and I still wanted a way to be involved. So that just seemed like the next logical option. So luckily where where I was training at Lang's MMA, my coach ah was was happy to give us coaching classes to coach.

01:17:28

Sonny

um So i just had the opportunity just to start coaching and he was, he's an old punk rocker. So he was just like, yeah, do whatever you want. Um, which was, which was pretty, which was pretty cool. So, you know, obviously I've been trained for him for many years, seen how he had done things, but there was always, there was a ah level of freedom, um, that he, uh, that he would give everyone there that that was very, uh, appreciated. So that kind of just started off. I was still, still working, still, ah coaching, um, like i was just coaching, I guess, for fun.

01:18:02

Sonny

Um, and just still working until eventually decided to change my career to move out of IT. t um And I went to university to do Sydney Uni to do a PE teaching degree was called human movement degree when I started, which I think sounds much cooler. But by the time I finished it was just called PE.

01:18:26

Sonny

um and And it was kind of then at that point, which I really wanted to try and align my life in a way that it was more, ah I guess, just aligned on coaching, teaching in sport.

01:18:40

Sonny

so that So I wouldn't have this massive disconnect between um, doing MMA and having a fight club moment of, of the split personality where you go to an office and sit down at a cubicle for, for eight hours a day. It was trying, okay, how can I get rid of that? Let's go into teaching.

01:18:58

Sonny

Um, PE and then I can use what I learn in university to help inform my coaching martial arts coaching practice and maybe one day it'd be nice to open a gym and and do something like that but I'd still just be able to kind of live more in alignment with that which is kind of what led to podcast and social media and stuff which I all thought were just good ways to spend all of my energy focusing towards one kind of goal of just martial arts and education and teaching and coaching.

01:19:33

Andy Grappling

So in the end, you achieved that goal. I mean, you with Apex MMA, now you are co-owner, I guess, of your own gym.

01:19:36

Sonny

Yeah.

01:19:40

Sonny

Yeah.

01:19:41

Andy Grappling

And so i'm I'm very happy for you that in the end it all turned out, i guess.

01:19:41

Sonny

Yeah.

01:19:47

Sonny

Yeah, it's crazy. That's why when I when i say I'm uninspired by to social media, it is just social media, ah really, because when I look at everything that I've been able to do, um yeah, I've i' been able to turn ah turn what i wanted to do and as a hobby into a profession.

01:20:07

Sonny

Yeah. I've got my own gym. I'm now also working for a company, MMA.inc as well, which is, which it's almost like too much has come along of, of my passion that I, uh, that I've, it's, it's, it's really opened up some incredible opportunities.

01:20:25

Sonny

And I certainly can't complain because I have been able to turn my passion into a living, which I know a lot of people, um, were and ah not ah not fortunate enough to have the you have the luck to to be able to do, which is just ah something that I am super grateful for.

01:20:43

Sonny

And I do have to keep reminding myself. um I would say the only ah the only thing with running a gym is ah versus just being coaching or just ah you know obviously being a student is that I have found, I'm sure other coaches would be able to sympathize with this,

01:21:01

Sonny

or coaches that are in the or gym owners is that I have found in some degree, at at least at at the moment that where i used to be able to just come in and switch off, either when I was coaching at someone else's gym or just obviously when I was a student.

01:21:14

Sonny

Now it's very difficult for the gym to be my place to just completely switch off. mentally um at least those moments when i'm coaching it is or you know i can just you know lose myself in coaching but still you've got to be keep a lookout if someone walks in or there's another there's an injury or someone needs a band-aid or some tape or there's always other things that um which is just part of part of it doesn't obviously um impact the level of coaching that you can do But I have found the need to now, you know, have other, we'll try and develop other hobbies as well that can kind of keep that balance to kind of have that spot to switch off.

01:21:52

Andy Grappling

So you you mentioned your podcast, but again, Sonny Brown is too humble of a person because you said I made some impressions when we talked on a podcast, but you also made impressions on me way before we ever talked.

01:21:56

Sonny

Yeah.

01:22:09

Andy Grappling

Because back in the day on YouTube, um there was like BJJ scouts who did these breakdowns of jujitsu and grappling and some m MMA who had like I watched all his clips over and over and over and over again.

01:22:24

Andy Grappling

And then at some point, I found a guy called Sonny Brown, who did like lots of breakdowns also.

01:22:27

Sonny

Hey.

01:22:31

Andy Grappling

And ah so later, then also for me, Dan Sweeney or DPS breakdowns also added to this list.

01:22:36

Sonny

Yeah.

01:22:39

Andy Grappling

And so I have to say, I don't know because you didn't even mention it, but Sonny Brown is the guy from Sonny Brown breakdowns on YouTube, breaking down technique. Actually, I think,

01:22:51

Andy Grappling

was at the time very, very big. At least it was for me. So can you maybe talk about how you started, when you started, why you started?

01:23:01

Sonny

Yeah, for sure.

01:23:02

Andy Grappling

um

01:23:03

Sonny

For sure. I mean, so, and, and actually to be honest, like that is probably one of the things which I have, uh, sacrificed on, you know, it's been a while since I've done one of the ah YouTube video, um, with running of the gym and the, and the other job that I, that I still have.

01:23:18

Sonny

Um, that i would like to get back to and and do more of again with the podcast ah as well um but and because especially to a lot of the people like me that's where they you know they're quite um impressed or fans of it and or no it just even that's where they know me know me from and it's even it has been crazy to be able to um you know go to go to different gyms all around the world they'd know us and uh just which just is mind-blowing from you know I was very much it was just Wayne's World type stuff I'm just putting it together in my in my bedroom kind of thing and um and then when I went when I went and visited ah like new wave um in Austin it's like the guy behind the desk newest from that stuff and it's like whoa this is

01:24:06

Sonny

this is a pretty crazy effect to, I can, you have on the, on the world just from, um, you know, editing stuff in, on my computer, just at at my house and now different parts of the world. I can go, all my friends sent me videos of people he was training with in Vietnam, watching my videos. And they're like, did Sonny do another video for us and things like that, which is, so it's, it's, it's pretty crazy that the impact that you can have, um,

01:24:32

Sonny

and and actually so far as everything seems to be positive so fingers crossed um but that was just something i was a big fan of uh jack slack big fan of bjga scout obviously um lawrence kenshin um those were those were the main influences and oh and gamble dub gamble dub he did a bunch of um uh they were just uh google docs man that

01:24:54

Andy Grappling

Yeah, right. I remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Crucifix.

01:24:59

Sonny

Yeah, had one crucifixed Polish throw.

01:24:59

Andy Grappling

Crucifix. ah My whole Crucifix game was gambled up. Then I think wasn't also gamb gambled up the guy who did the Lucas Lage coyote guard underhook stuff.

01:25:08

Sonny

Yeah, yeah, he did add a had one.

01:25:10

Andy Grappling

This revolution and back back then and revolutionized my half guard game. yeah Gambled up, also an OG, yeah.

01:25:16

Sonny

Yeah. um I remember his stuff and it was probably just where like his stuff where I could read through them and you could kind of, and I was just like, you know what? Actually, this so this is something that's probably driven a lot of things in my life where I'm just like, I see something and like, that's cool.

01:25:33

Sonny

I think I could, I could do that. I'm going to give that a shot, you know? And then i just, and then I would probably obsessively focus on, on that for a while. But, ah you know, i'm kind of just started like watching that. oh i could I could do this.

01:25:47

Sonny

And so that's where I did. I did. So them like my first video was on Habib's ah ah ah leg riding position, which I called the, in that one, the leg mount ride um or like it now called leg clamp or whatever on those way. Habib steps over the legs and and triangles trys them off.

01:26:08

Sonny

Reason I picked that position was something that I was already working. And also I was very, i at the time, was very aware of that if I was going to put something out, it has to be, I wanted to be able to go in depth on a particular topic that nobody else had covered. So I know like for sure at the time, no one else had done anything.

01:26:29

Sonny

on that particular position itself. um So I just went in depth and I knew i like enough examples of it just from watching fights and fighters who had used it that i could go on. um get clips of and um like i look back it's funny man because we do we did talk about stuff the way there was uh the start about how a lot of social media there's no individuality in there um in people's instagram real stuff whatever stuff like that like you go back with the first one i've got like a cosmic cosmic psychedelic space intro leading into leading into the video and like pictures of

01:27:08

Sonny

um And i i was it was all like ah Soviet funk. So at the time the music, which I've got so many comments on, wow well, what is this music, elevator music, whatever.

Content Creation and Social Media Dynamics

01:27:17

Sonny

At the time, my um i was you know there was music match ID, which would stop your video from getting monetized.

01:27:27

Sonny

Sorry, not monetized. It would actually remove your video from YouTube. um And so for the for the music, for for the videos, I was always trying to find rare, ah like garage funk or soul, which hadn't been uploaded to Spotify or anything like that at the time. So there was no like rare tracks that there was no music ID on.

01:27:48

Sonny

which was something that had really at the time led to the creation of like that lo-fi hip hop genre, which is now huge everywhere. But that kind of entire genre spawned out of YouTube's content ID ah requirements where they just had to get um music that would be unidentifiable by it, which was like older, older, older, dusty jazz records that they could use samples from without getting claimed by content ID. So like,

01:28:17

Sonny

I do feel that there was a lot of my own, ah influences put into those, into those videos, which um I can stand behind as at least offering something somewhat unique. If I'm going to be critical of other people, if not, uh, doing unique things. So so at least i was bringing some of my own individual influences into, into my presentations and,

01:28:39

Sonny

um and yet which were ah you know different influences that I had personally or different artists that I like and things like that that I could able could draw inspiration from to put together in actual simplified educational terms of grappling you know grappling positions um which which you know I'm proud of I can go back watch them and I'm like ah die man I did it I always did a decent job on those um because I watch a ah lot now and um there's a lot actually there's a lot more available now very high quality

01:29:13

Sonny

oh that you know there's there's there's just a lot more people doing it and which is good which is a good thing and there um i will say that at the time i was always very conscious too that like at any point a world champion could come in and just start doing these videos as well so i have to have to be taking an angle that is they might not want to cover or they might not be good at or you know how am I going to separate myself and put put enough of what's unique about me and my interests forth in a video that would, yeah that and people couldn't necessarily copy that. They could talk about the same topic, but they'd never be able to do something exactly like the way I would.

01:29:58

Andy Grappling

I mean, even people like me did some breakdowns.

01:30:02

Sonny

You had the one on Islam Makashev.

01:30:04

Sonny

You pointed out some of very crucial things about his differences between Habib, I remember.

01:30:04

Andy Grappling

Yeah, I did one on Isla Makache.

01:30:11

Andy Grappling

Yeah, but i've kind of i'm I'm a little bit sad, to be honest, that after he became champion, that it doesn't really have that many clicks because I feel like I have made a very important point and people sadly don't recognize it.

01:30:23

Sonny

You have.

01:30:26

Andy Grappling

But whatever.

01:30:27

Sonny

And I mean, that is, that's unfortunately the game that it's like, you know maybe a different thumbnail would have helped you know this is the crazy stuff dude that's the yeah

01:30:38

Andy Grappling

ah some some Some poops or but something like this.

01:30:42

Sonny

you know clickbait or maybe it's just like some man the the slightest changes of color in a thumbnail can have a difference in click-through right like

01:30:44

Andy Grappling

Clickbaits.

01:30:53

Sonny

there's so There's almost sense in some situations so many different factors that can affect our social media performance that unless you have a team working on something for strictly for commercial purposes, um then it's like yeah I always would make sure that no matter what it is, i kind of would count on the fact that I Don't know if it's going to resonate with people or not. It

Teaching Systems and Individuality

01:31:18

Sonny

might, it might not.

01:31:19

Sonny

So I always wanted to make sure I was doing something that I was, that was fulfilling to me that I was happy, that I was going to be happy with no matter what. Um, because man, sometimes it seems like you're just playing the poker machines where social media might give you a big win and show you out. The algorithm shows it you to a lot of people just to keep you hooked.

01:31:40

Sonny

And then, uh, you know, and then other stuff don't do is don't do as well. at least when you're trying to present an authentic, uh, and, a viewpoint of your, of yourself, I think eventually that stuff can be gamed and systematized and you can, you can work out, you can work it out if you, if you want to

01:32:00

Andy Grappling

Speaking of systematized, do you remember there was a time, now now every now ecological or constraints like the buzzword, there was a time where system wasn't buzzword, where everybody had now a system.

01:32:12

Sonny

Yeah, dude.

01:32:13

Andy Grappling

and And I feel like this is the real occurring theme. There is like some idea where there's obviously, obviously some merit to it. And then people jump on it and try to profit from the idea and say, oh, yeah, I'm i'm i'm also very, very original about that. And and back then it was systems.

01:32:37

Andy Grappling

Then it became leg locks. Now it's echo constraints, whatever. So just just an observation because it reminded me of systems.

01:32:45

Sonny

Definitely. And actually something you said was important for me, where which is if you can't flow chart it out, then it's not a system. And I've kind of stuck with that. um Cause that's what you realize. A lot of people will say they have systems or they'll say they have programs and they don't, they don't really, you ask them a couple of couple questions and they don't, there's no, there's no, there's no system or now.

01:33:06

Sonny

Um, you know the system is whatever dana has shown and whatever they've picked up on jason rowell's instagram kind of thing it's like that's not real that that is the system you know it's like whatever i'm doing is the day today is the damn system kind of thing um but then so you know a lot of these words just get thrown around which is probably it's probably the same in every facet of life like there's no no no need to worry about it too much but it does forego the benefits of actually having a system the reason that you want to use that word in the first place does there is as you said there's merit to it and if you don't actually have a system and you're just using the word and then you're not actually even going to be getting uh the merit from it and this and you can use you can

01:33:52

Sonny

use the dano system or whatever it is that's that's that's what all fine but very few people even like would strictly stick solely to that um and then they just start doing whatever it is they want and call that a system um and but the other one that sticks out to me too is there was a time when the reverse classroom was all the rage as well So I'm going to do a systematized reverse classroom ecological model, Andy, where of course i've got my system I've got my system set up, but you and but the constraints-based games, the rules, we'll put in a video but that you can watch before class and you can just come in and start.

01:34:20

Andy Grappling

Wow, it's the next big thing.

01:34:32

Sonny

You already know what the games are going to be.

01:34:34

Andy Grappling

So, revolutionary.

01:34:35

Sonny

There you go, you heard it here first. i don't think anyone else has ah has come up with that yet, Andy. So I should have should have actually done it.

01:34:41

Andy Grappling

So, so i will i will I will make sure to publish this after you launch your PDFnetics course, okay? So nobody can... can copy the idea.

01:34:53

Sonny

Exactly. you know that's ah We just got to hold off and actually implement implement it, which I think is the hardest thing to do is actually implementing actually implementing something and getting something done.

01:35:04

Sonny

um and you know executing Everyone can have a good idea. Actually executing on the idea and making it come to fruition and making it come to reality, ah bringing it into the world. So like something you've thought up in your mind and then bringing it to fruition into the world.

01:35:18

Sonny

is ah is that a that's the hub that's the hard part the everyone can have the idea bring it into the world implementing it executing it that's the difficult part and those are the people that i respect even if you know even if i wouldn't necessarily agree with what ah whatever it is they're doing or i wouldn't do a particular thing that way if someone set a goal had an idea and is able to achieve it that is really what i what i look up to and and and respect honestly

01:35:45

Andy Grappling

yeah Yeah. Speaking of systems, for me, systems is also very confusing to talk about because obviously I talk a lot about complexity and non-linear systems and stuff like this.

01:35:59

Andy Grappling

and And that's why it's always hard. People, you cannot confuse system the word system in one context and the other. So so I just want to be clear about that because that if we talk about a person having a system,

01:36:15

Andy Grappling

It's more like they have a certain ah methodology, they have a certain framework, let's say. um and And of course, this is something not entirely, but mostly different from the idea of a system as something that is ah constituted of ah many parts interacting together and forming something much more complex, which obviously are everywhere right i mean you are in some way a complex system i uh i am a complex system every move is a complex system every match forms a complex system so so just to if people are wondering what we are talking about we are aware talking about the the idea that there was a time where everybody had had this neat package of framework of system medically

01:36:49

Sonny

Yeah.

01:37:07

Andy Grappling

um thinking or approaching uh certain subsystems of grappling um and ah just to be sure that why i actually made once a post which is called why most systems aren't systematically because actually this whole idea of making doing flow charts where one comes after the other and this relates to that that is actually only

01:37:24

Sonny

Mm-hmm.

01:37:34

Andy Grappling

possible for systems who aren't very complex and aren't really dynamic or nonlinear because then all these you cannot even make these linear things so so just just as a reminder language again I discussed with Greg ah is complicated and context is very important yeah just to point that out

01:38:02

Sonny

Yeah. And that's where I would say i have, i ah I do have flow charts for, um, you know, as let's say to the beginners and and intermediates level. But then after that, Andy, I've got a saying, which I always have to remind myself and others is never go full system.

01:38:18

Sonny

As there's a danger in going full system.

01:38:18

Andy Grappling

Yeah,

01:38:20

Sonny

You'll go mad if you try and go full system, do not go full system. um There has to be, one, it's it's impossible, but you want to share ah set a framework and then have have a belief and an understanding and then let let there be room for a bit improvisation.

01:38:43

Andy Grappling

yeah exactly. It's, it's, it's, There was a time where I, and this this is also some of the reasons why I'm taking so long for my book, because I really rearranged everything. Because at some point I i wanted to make the embodied grappling approach.

01:38:59

Andy Grappling

i'd Also like, it almost like compared to, don't know, the ecological approach, but also kind of ah differentiating between it. And then I made all these flow charts and rules and this and that and and and whatever.

01:39:15

Andy Grappling

And then at some point I realized, wait a second, it's exactly what I don't believe any skill can be. It's never neat. It's never guided by specific rules and very specific things.

01:39:28

Andy Grappling

And then I tried to really reconceptualize everything. And I said to myself, I will never give rules or recipes people have to follow in a linear way because the whole point is I'm always trying to argue that in order to be a good grappler athlete but also a coach you have to embody a certain way of looking and engaging with the world and the people around you and it's really in a holistic and also authentic way it's never the it's never two coaches should and can never be the same and and and and

01:40:07

Andy Grappling

This for me made like the the, now for me, the constraint was to to write this book in a way to get people across the idea. There are of course certain constraints and okay, maybe even some tendencies, but it never can be fully systematized, fully guided by rule following because this is exactly what I'm arguing against.

01:40:31

Andy Grappling

The human person is not a rule following like system like um a traditional traditional computer is thought of and it's something we already talked about it's it's so crucial that people understand that even now the most successful artificial intelligence machine learning networks are also not based on the idea that they're like fixed rules these are like

01:41:03

Andy Grappling

highly connected complex systems and ah the whole idea that you can put in some rules and get a adaptable output is it from for me at least it's it's debunked it was debunked years ago um and also i will also cover this in the book but um yeah this is just my perspective so like you never go full system Be authentic to yourself.

01:41:29

Andy Grappling

Try to collect as much information that is valuable to you as much as you can. Then transform it in the way it fits to you, to your context, to your gym, to whatever.

01:41:42

Andy Grappling

It doesn't matter if you're an athlete or a coach.

01:41:46

Sonny

Yeah, and that's where I think, you know, it's something i had to remind myself where there is enough unique about you know, uh, my experiences that I can offer a unique viewpoint into certain things that might not seem that you unique to the people directly around, around me, but the,

01:42:07

Sonny

when you scale it to worldwide, it most certainly is, um, the experiences and conditions and, um influences that I've had and that you would have had would be vastly different.

01:42:21

Sonny

Um, and we've managed to find common ground, but the, uh, the, lead up to get there is going to be very, very, very different. And you do not want to eliminate that by trying to go full system.

01:42:36

Sonny

um it's that's That's the pathway to madness, Andy. Never go full system.

01:42:43

Andy Grappling

Yeah, exactly. And

Critique of Ecological Approach and Coaching Autonomy

01:42:44

Andy Grappling

this is also...

01:42:47

Andy Grappling

I will only say this shortly because for some reason we also fall in the trap talking all the time about this ecological approach thing. And at some point, yeah, but at some point I just want to leave it behind me.

01:42:57

Sonny

It's the hot topic, Andy. It's the hot topic.

01:43:02

Sonny

It is red hot. Did you see the debate between Greg and Big Dan?

01:43:02

Andy Grappling

But I just want to make...

01:43:04

Andy Grappling

Yeah, I just want to make this point. No, no, no, no, no. I didn't. I didn't.

01:43:08

Sonny

You're lucky you're...

01:43:08

Andy Grappling

I really made sure I did not watch that because...

01:43:11

Sonny

Lucky you're...

01:43:13

Sonny

my I didn't want to see it. One of my friends sent it to me um when it started happening and then i got I got hooked in for a bit. And all I could imagine, the thought going through my head is as I'm sitting there watching this thing is, because I got suckered in for too long, um is that I could be watching the sunrise at this moment, but instead I'm watching this terrible debate over coaching methods in a a very niche sport.

01:43:13

Andy Grappling

Yeah, no drama, bro.

01:43:38

Sonny

And I'm just like, I felt, worse i felt worse of a human being for having watched it, to be honest.

01:43:38

Andy Grappling

I mean...

01:43:44

Andy Grappling

To be honest, I'm really not that engaged with social media. oh People always tell me, oh, did you listen? did you watch? I'm like, no, I read books and mostly books not about grappling.

01:43:54

Andy Grappling

So I really don't know what's going on and I frankly don't care.

01:43:57

Sonny

yeah

01:43:59

Andy Grappling

um So I will not listen to, I don't know, people arguing in the internet. I mean, I have like on my coffee table, they are like, 10 books I'm right now reading parallel and nothing really has to do with grappling at all because all I do and I ever did was take ideas from actually, i don't know, philosophy, science, and whatever, and try to implement it in my life.

01:44:25

Andy Grappling

And grappling is just part of my life. And obviously then there are ways to implement into grappling too, but it's not that I'm that much interested in listening to guys arguing about these things.

01:44:41

Andy Grappling

yeah

01:44:41

Sonny

Yeah, yeah, I hate that.

01:44:42

Andy Grappling

But to come come come back, what I wanted to say about echo grappling is my criticism is they

01:44:43

Sonny

I like that.

01:44:51

Andy Grappling

I believe did the exact same evolution than cognitive science or ah computer science did.

01:45:02

Andy Grappling

If the old school drilling, coaching, oh, big sensei knows all the rules idea is basically computationalists rule following, which was like the first thing.

01:45:14

Andy Grappling

um computer systems and they tried to beat people in chess and was absolutely not good. They weren't even able to compete at all. um And then there was this idea of modeling in computation models after the human brain and then the whole thing got got started with neural networks and then this this kind of a framework it's called basically ah connectionism and it's very closely related to cybernetics, which is just a study of yeah dynamic systems who self-organize basically.

01:45:52

Andy Grappling

and and And what I'm missing, because I feel like right now, constraint-set approach is a lot like this connection. It's like, okay, you give the system boundary conditions and then you do trial and error and then it gets a steady state. and But I'm more concerned with people and humans ah And I think that what all this cognitive science, AI discussions are missing is exactly what these discussions in grappling i missing.

01:46:21

Andy Grappling

I'm mostly concerned with human experience of individual people with their intersubjective experiences.

01:46:32

Andy Grappling

And of course, we can use ideas of, I don't know, ecological psychology, complex systems, everything, concepts, positions.

01:46:44

Andy Grappling

We can use all this stuff. But in the end, the goal must be, at least in my framework, how is my experience and the experience of my students constituted, how it is shaped, and how can I make it so that the experiences

01:47:03

Andy Grappling

experienced in practice ah constitutes to to to a way of learning improvement and also to make it ah meaningful. um yeah

01:47:14

Sonny

Yeah, I think that, yeah, that's actually something we talked we've talked about on on another podcast of the idea of meaning behind it. But I think that's where I mentioned before where, you know, ah the coach should believe in something. And I think as a student.

01:47:29

Sonny

It's like it come, yeah you know, you want a coach who is actually believing in something as well, either in that could be coaching, you know, coaching methods, or it could just be in jujitsu or or whatever martial art is. But you want a coach that is, I guess, what people now these days might be called present or engaged or available or things like that, whereas, you know, they should believe in what or find meaning what they're doing.

01:47:56

Sonny

And then that is then going to be apparent to any students that and make them more engaged and make it easier for them to find meaning and stuff in in what they're doing.

01:48:09

Sonny

ah So I think that, you know, role of a coach is somewhat... This probably would be a performative element of it as as always, but it's also you should believe in and what it is that you're actually doing. um And that will then give more of an opportunity for any students you have to have share that same belief and find meaning in it.

01:48:35

Andy Grappling

Yeah, and it's also something i said at some point is I truly believe is every coach should tell themselves that whatever you do, however great you are, the absolute maximum impact on the success of your students you can have is 49%.

01:48:55

Andy Grappling

You always have to be sure that you know or at least that you that to never forget that the achievements of the students are mostly their achievements and it's the way they come to the gym, it's the way they are ah passionate about it, they are like trying to improve and think it it's about their relationship to the sport.

01:49:08

Sonny

Mm-hmm.

01:49:20

Andy Grappling

And you as a coach, you can of course form another relationship with said person to facilitate that. But in the end, it' is I'm always impressed how little I can actually achieve if the person doesn't bring the right attitude.

01:49:39

Andy Grappling

On the other hand, I'm always amazed how good how how um how how good some people get fast.

01:49:48

Andy Grappling

And it wouldn't probably matter that much what I do. And so I think it's it's very important that we are like, don't overestimating what we are doing.

01:49:52

Sonny

yeah

01:50:00

Andy Grappling

are helping people to further their relationship with the sport. And there's only so much we can do. That's truly what I believe. um And that's why um I also believe, and this is something that is hard to scale if you own a gym and you have to pay your bills and you have have to pay rent and everything. It's hard to scale. am 100% sure of that.

01:50:27

Andy Grappling

i'm sure of that is I always try, because i have a small scale, to really get a feeling how to coach this student. Because that's what I meant by experience.

01:50:38

Sonny

Mm-hmm.

01:50:39

Andy Grappling

I see there's a certain personality behind the person, And some things might work great for this guy and they wouldn't work great for another person.

01:50:52

Andy Grappling

And of course, there are some prince but ah principles or concepts that are just true about learning. Sure, true about that. But the specifics are never, again, rule following.

01:51:06

Andy Grappling

It's like having a engaged relationship with the person. And this is mostly, to be honest, field-based. It's not even that I'm consciously thinking about it. And then I have a sense about what to do, show, how to behave with that person right now in the moment.

01:51:25

Andy Grappling

And then given on the feedback, I get how he reacts, how he behaves, how we talk and whatever. I, again, as a coach, have to learn, self-organize around that to learn from the interaction until build deep and hopefully lasting relationships with with people in my gym.

01:51:45

Andy Grappling

And again, this is how I like to coach. It's how I try to do it. And sometimes it works better than other times. It's never perfect. We all all are just humans.

01:51:57

Andy Grappling

but But in the end, and

01:52:02

Andy Grappling

this is my goal. And i know for a fact, if you coach, I don't know, Greg Slaughter said he coaches 21 classes a week with, I don't know, 40 people or something on the mat.

01:52:15

Andy Grappling

This is hard. I get it 100%. hundred percent um So maybe you cannot give your students all the attention all the time, obviously, but maybe for people who own in a commercial gym, um find ways to maybe give people this this this experience.

01:52:35

Andy Grappling

And I i um maybe urge you to, if you cannot scale, maybe do more like grassroots approach where you say, okay, maybe you are not the only person who knows stuff about grappling, that your students actually actually do some of the coaching.

01:52:55

Andy Grappling

Maybe do more like senior level students, teach ah junior level students, engage in, I don't know, whatever ah way of learning and and and you can moderate and insert at certain points.

01:53:09

Andy Grappling

and And I think this this is much more beneficial than if you have like this this this one person trying to micromanage or even design games.

01:53:20

Andy Grappling

We talk about these ideas for everybody. There will always be some person who needs a certain kind of constraints that approach game than another person because they have like different skills right now and have different needs.

01:53:35

Andy Grappling

um So if you can try to find ways to make it more, I believe, in the individual. And this is, of course, very hard. I know that.

01:53:45

Sonny

Yeah, that's it is difficult. I think some, ah but without a doubt, it's it's it's difficult, but is ah is is a noble goal. You know, some tips, ah tips and tricks I could probably give for that is one thing I had i have done in the past with large classes is uh give them or yeah give the same problem to everyone and then break break them up into smaller groups um to have them troubleshoot the problem and go around to those groups see what they can do and then actually each each group would show the class you know that do this do that um so they have a ah chance to to coach and then can

01:54:21

Sonny

drill or rep, whatever, whatever you want to do and, and then go into rolling. So that's one way to break it into small groups. And then I think, well, you what I'm, you know, currently at an individual level, I think just knowing, you know, knowing one, what the person's goals are, you know, why, why are they training, what it is that they, they're looking to achieve, uh, beyond just looking, you know, uh, you know, the areas of the game that they need to improve for a more developed student.

01:54:49

Sonny

Um, But knowing, you know, what what are their goals that they're looking to achieve out of this, um either for the day, for the year, or just in general. And then just things about their background, like what are their other interests, what other sports they've done, you know, have they played sports, you know, as a as a kid?

01:55:08

Sonny

ah Was it professional and competitive? Did they do it as an adult? Was it just amateur or was it also competitive? And that'll give you some then... along with any other interests they may have, that'll give you some analogies or metaphors that you could use to make a connection with whatever concept or principle or technique is that you're trying to get get across. If there's a certain movement that they would do in another sport that they've done, then they can then you can rely on that as something to relate to them, um as well as I'm i'm sure that you know, just the general ones that that you could do as well. So those are probably some some tricks they would that they would give. But you're right. at yeah At the end of the day,

01:55:46

Sonny

you can only You can only do so much. And the but the best the best thing you can get is a highly athletic, self-motivated student. um And you know generally, your goal should be to take whatever extrinsic motivation that someone might might have, like perhaps seeking belts or or medals or whatever like that, hopefully turn it.

01:56:05

Sonny

into an intrinsic motivation where they're just doing it for the love of it. And that that will, doesn't matter what you're teaching, then you'll find that they will be progressing. um Because sometimes the most important thing you can do coaches then get out of the way of people, not trying to constrain them into whatever pre-existing belief system that you did have and let them figure things out as as as they go along. Or not perhaps figure things out, it's too much stronger word, but go on their own ah path of development and because that is going to be deeply rewarding.

01:56:35

Sonny

um for them and you. and And then there's there's still going to be things outside of your control. Like, you know, you someone walks in naturally gifted athletically on what, you know, what did your parents do? Or they're both powerlifters or Olympic sprinters or something like that. And i was like, well, okay, so this person is going to, you know, is going to pick things up in a much different way as um someone with not a previous background or parents had didn't have a background in in that at all.

01:57:04

Sonny

um And, you know, those are these are the things that can make a difference, help you make a connection to people. It's obviously going to be exceptions to this, but you can't spend all all your time focusing on on the exceptions. You just got to be looking to scale. You've got to look for the most repeatable things that you can possibly do and then do your best at at implementing them.

01:57:28

Andy Grappling

Great. Yeah,

Balancing Gym Management and Personal Life

01:57:29

Andy Grappling

set i couldn't have said it better. We almost talked for two hours. um And I think we are people who can always talk more to each other. And I'm pretty sure you will be hopefully a reoccurring guest on my podcast.

01:57:47

Sonny

For you Andy, for sure, mate.

01:57:47

Andy Grappling

um Nice. But there's one last question maybe before we finish.

01:57:53

Sonny

Let's go.

01:57:55

Andy Grappling

You mentioned at some point that since you own a gym, it's not again, and not anymore the place where you can go and it's like you can turn off your mind. And when you go go home, it's about by that it's more like it's your business.

01:58:12

Andy Grappling

And then you mentioned that right now you try to get this from other hobbies. Would you mind sharing these other hobbies?

01:58:19

Sonny

Well, at the moment, for better or worse, Andy, it's going out to a local ah Japanese bar, Tachinomi YP, seats about six people and ordering an asahi and a beef curry.

01:58:31

Sonny

LAUGHTER

01:58:35

Sonny

for For better or worse, that's that's probably what that's where where it's sitting at right now, which is – and then, you know, i'm I'm at the point where I can just go in and get the usual.

01:58:46

Sonny

And what i think that is – what that did make me realize is it is that element of community or just going somewhere. It's the cheers effect. You want to go where so everybody knows your name kind of thing.

01:58:57

Sonny

And that's kind of allows you just to switch off and then get up in the morning and go down to Sydney Harbor. I'm very lucky to live nearby, walking distance and and check out the sunrise. And I've got a waterfall near my near my house, which is just, li Sydney is a very very nice city.

01:59:13

Sonny

And I'm trying to just get out and go for go for walk to get my, ah one of my students, Dingo, his name is DJ Dingo, um, made a recommendation that he tries to get into, tries to get into the ocean every day. And, uh, I've stuck, stuck with that and at least try and at least dip my toes into the Harbor every day.

01:59:33

Sonny

Um, but those kinds of things is kind of what's keeping me, uh, sane and, and, and level on the, on the, at the moment, I'd say in terms of other hobbies, I've, I've pulled out the record collection that, that had been sitting in the cupboard for a while. So like music is always something that I enjoy listening to music, going to concerts.

01:59:53

Sonny

um things like that but it's still trying to find that thing that is going to give me I'm still trying to find out exactly what what that other hobby might be that could also give that sense of community that Jiu Jitsu has which is which is kind of hard to replace I mean the Asahi and Kari is pretty good I'll probably go there when whatever we finish whenever we finish talking here but ah there's also that element of community that's that's very that's very important because It's very hard to ah replace replace that.

02:00:27

Sonny

um So yeah, nothing too amazing just yet. But you know if if you know if if I do find something, you know what was interesting, my coach, um Punk Rocker, But ah something that he never talked about, but you only knew after knowing 15 years whatever, and you'd see it, is he he had these amazing painted model toy soldier collection, which is like a whole, of course, whole subculture, and he would paint things.

02:00:54

Sonny

these toy soldiers, which was, you wouldn't pick it from knowing him, but that was what it was one of his things. And he was always one of, he still is one of the happiest people known. um So that's, you know, maybe, maybe I'm i'm not saying I'm going to do that, but I, I just, I think anything along those lines where it gives, gives you that outlet probably creatively is what I'm trying to trying to develop one form or another.

02:01:20

Sonny

Cause I think it does, it does keeps you sane.

02:01:27

Andy Grappling

very, very nice. So maybe next time you will send me some, some, uh, music you compose or maybe some paintings you have painted.

02:01:39

Andy Grappling

But, um, if not, we will find other stuff to talk about for sure. Um, ah So, yeah, thank you very much, Sonny. um As always, it's a pleasure to talk with you, no matter on which podcast, on which side, who is interviewing who.

02:01:57

Andy Grappling

um And hopefully we will talk soon again.

02:02:03

Sonny

Thanks, mate. Really appreciate it. And it's great to see you having your own podcast. though bit Hope it smashes it, mate. I'll be cheering for you.

02:02:13

Andy Grappling

Yeah, let's see.