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Free Weekly Episode - Italy’s GOAT World Cup XI, Klinsmann Comments On Iran, Milan & Juve Target Kiwior & Much More (Ep. 277)
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From Italy's all time greatest goalkeeper, defender, midfielder, winger, striker and coach, the Azzurri all time World Cup XI, to profile on Spezia's Polish international defender Jakub Kiwior linked with Juventus and AC Milan to Jurgen Klinsmann's epic own goal on BBC on Iran and much more as Nima and Carlo discuss it all.
Every Monday episode of The Italian Football Podcast is free for all. To listen to all full episodes of The Italian Football Podcast, go to Patreon.com/TIFP to become a Patron for only $2.99 USD per month (excluding VAT).
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Transcript
Nostalgia & Greatest Italy World Cup 11
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to the Italian football podcast with John Solano, Carlo Garganese and Nima Tuvali.
00:00:23
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Italian Football Podcast. I'm Carlo Garganese, joined as always by Nima Tavalli. The World Cup is in full swing now. It doesn't get any easier for us Italians not being there.
00:00:39
Speaker
But we do have a great show for you today. What we're going to do is we're going to have a bit of Italy World Cup nostalgia. And we've had a lot of requests from listeners asking us to select Italy's greatest World Cup 11 of all time. So we're going to do that today. That should be a bit of
World Cup Review & Club Segments
00:01:00
Speaker
fun. And we're also going to review the first two match days of the World Cup.
00:01:05
Speaker
We've got a few big topics to discuss, including Jurgen Klinsman insulting Nimr and the entire nation of Iran. So Nimr's got a lot of strong words to say on Jurgen Klinsman. Iran are becoming a regular topic on this Italian football podcast during the World Cup.
00:01:26
Speaker
We also have a few club topics and our usual bad show and prim face of the week. And let me just tell you, we could pretty much have a top 100 prim faces of the week at this rate, the way things are going during this World Cup. We could actually have a top 100 talk sport prim faces of the week, the way things are going. So that's gonna be quite a lot of fun as well. That'll be towards the end of the show. Okay, so let's get into it.
00:01:54
Speaker
Right, just before we start, we do have a little announcement to wake. John Solano, who has been part of the Italian Football Podcast during the last two years, since we've done this in September 2020 actually, is unfortunately is moving on from the pod. He, well, simply he just didn't have time really to carry on with the pod between family, work life,
00:02:24
Speaker
you know, juggling that with the pod. It's been a bit too much for him. So he is moving on. We just want to thank him for everything in the last two years. He did all our editing during these two years, edited the pod. He did the graphics, very, very talented with the graphics. And of course, you know, you've heard him on the pod.
00:02:43
Speaker
as well on the Monday show he often was on. So yeah, we want to thank him. We wish him the very best for the future. I'm sure we will have him on as a guest soon to talk about his beloved Roma, as he calls them. And yeah, so big thanks to John and all the best.
00:03:07
Speaker
Okay, right, let's get straight into it then.
Italian Goalkeepers: Zoff vs Buffon
00:03:12
Speaker
Italy's greatest ever World Cup 11. Now, those of us who listen to the Thursday show knows that we did our best 11 of the Serie A season so far in our Mid-Season award, so go and check that out if you haven't already.
00:03:28
Speaker
What we're going to do today is going to follow the same format. We're going to go through each department on the field. We're going to start with the goalkeepers. I'm going to provide a shortlist. Then we're going to, both me and Nima, are going to pick our best goalkeeper in the World Cup for Italy. Then we're going to do the same with defenders, the midfielders, with forwards. And then we're going to do the best coach. And then we're going to pick a best 11.
00:03:55
Speaker
And yeah, that should be a lot of fun. Take a listen and you guys can all pick your best as well and tell us what you think. Okay, so we'll start off with the goalkeeper. I'm going to read out the shortlist first and then we'll pick our winners. So the shortlist I've gone for is
00:04:15
Speaker
I just remember when I say this that I've only picked players based on their performances in the World Cup. So these aren't necessarily the best Italian goalkeepers of all time or even the best goalkeepers, Italy national team goalkeepers because you've got some that were great in European championships but maybe didn't play well in World Cups or never played in World Cups.
00:04:37
Speaker
So this is only based on World Cup performance. The short list I've gone for is Gianpiero Combi, who was the goalkeeper in the 1934 World Cup when Italy hosted and won their very first World Cup. Enrico Albatouzi, who was at four World Cups actually in the 60s and 70s for Italy, and he was a starter at two, including in the 1970 World Cup when Italy reached the final and lost to Brazil.
00:05:05
Speaker
Dino Zoff, who was at three World Cups, he won the 1982 World Cup at the age of 40 as the captain. He was goalkeeper of the tournament in 1982. He's actually goalkeeper of the tournament in three major tournaments, although, like I said, two of those were European championships, they don't really count here. And it has the record for minutes unbeaten in international football from 1972 to 74. That went into the start of the World Cup in 1974.
00:05:32
Speaker
Walter Zenga in 1990, an Italian 90 goalkeeper, he holds the record for minutes gone in a World Cup without conceding a goal. He didn't concede, Italy didn't concede a goal in Italian 90 until the semi-final midway through the second half when Italy were 1-0 up and Zenga actually made a massive mistake which allowed Canica to equalise and then Italy went out on penalties sadly.
00:05:59
Speaker
Gianluca Paluca, who was goalkeepers for Italy at 1994 World Cup when they reached the final and lost on penalties to Brazil, and 1998 when Italy reached the quarterfinals and lost on penalties again to France.
00:06:16
Speaker
Buffon, Angeloui Gianluigi Buffon, of course, who went to five World Cups, which is a record for a goalkeeper, only conceded two goals in 2006, a penalty and an own goal when they, of course, they won the World Cup. He should have gone to six World Cups if Italy hadn't lost that playoff to Sweden to qualify for 2018. So, those are, those are my
00:06:42
Speaker
on my shortlist.
Legendary Italian Defenders
00:06:44
Speaker
Nima, anyone you want to single out and who would you have as your winner? It's quite difficult. It's so difficult, isn't it? Because if just that position, goalkeepers, Italy have had some magical goalkeepers, institutions, if you will. I can't go past Dino Zoff, even though Buffon is Buffon. I mean, he's also, I mean, it's so hard, but Dino Zoff
00:07:12
Speaker
you know, the way, you know, winning it at 82, when he was in his prime, he was the best in the world. No one came near him. And the final, you know, two, you know, what he did for Italy and Juve, I can't, it feels like it's a dead heat between him and Buffon. And this is coming from someone who absolutely worshipped Walter Zenga as a child.
00:07:37
Speaker
But I can't choose between Buffon and Zoff. I really can't.
00:07:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's where I'm at as well. I mean, I know I've included Kombi, but obviously I've seen nothing of Kombi. There's no footage in the 30s. There's only very, very bad highlights from the 30s. All the other goalkeepers on the list, I've watched every single game that they played in the World Cup. So, you know, from that, I think it's very, very hard to separate Zof and Bafon. I think that if you look at Zof,
00:08:12
Speaker
I think he probably had more. He played more at the World Cup than Buffon in terms of, you know, it wasn't just one tournament. See, for Buffon, strangely, 1998 World Cup, he was just a backup. He was a reserve. He was a third choice because he was 19 at that time, I think, or 20. And then you had...
00:08:38
Speaker
2002 went out in the last 16, although he did play well in that tournament, but they went out in the last 16. 2006, he was absolutely brilliant. Well, playing goalkeeper at the tournament by a mile, he was as good at that tournament almost as any goalkeeper has been at any tournament, just in terms of he was just pretty much perfect. The only goals he conceded was a free-comb goal from Saccado in a group game and a penalty.
00:09:02
Speaker
He didn't concede a goal in open play, so he was absolutely brilliant and he was absolutely pivotal in Italy winning the World Cup. If you look at the saves and the saves he made in the semi-final, if you look at the save from Sudan in extra time in the final in 2006. But then after that, 2010, I think he played the first half of the first game in 2010 and he got injured. Was it the first game and then he got injured? And then Marchetti came in and was a total disaster.
00:09:31
Speaker
and so he didn't really play at all in 2010 then in 2014 Italy went out in the group stage he didn't do anything wrong again in that and in fact they remember making an absolute wonder save against Uruguay in that third game when when it looked like that was going to keep Italy in the tournament and then they conceded and then obviously 2018 Italy didn't qualify so weirdly we're fine we're kind of looking at one tournament whereas with Zof
00:09:56
Speaker
He played in 74, okay they've got knocked out in the group stage but in 78 Italy were so close to reaching the final, they were beating Holland and then they needed to just needed to beat Holland to get to the final and then Holland scored two long-range goals which actually Zof was at fault for at least one of those goals, they're like just miracle goals from like 40 yards out
00:10:19
Speaker
And then 82, which was his last World Cup at the age of 40, in which he was, he had a great World Cup except for, he made one mistake, he made a big mistake against Brazil for the Socrates equalizer in that classic 3-2, got beaten in his near post, but then he made an absolute miracle save, one of the great saves in World Cup history, like the last seconds, last minutes to at 3-2 from a header from Oscar, from a free kick, which
00:10:47
Speaker
which was ensured that Italy went through and then obviously they went on and won the tournament and he was great in the semis against Poland and then in the final he was really good again in the final against West Germany. So it is very very difficult to separate them. I mean I would like to give it a tie to be honest with you. I know it's a bit of a cop out but
00:11:10
Speaker
Maybe I go for Buffon, maybe I go for Buffon just because I think it was absolutely perfect in 2006, whereas Zof made that one mistake against Brazil in 1982.
00:11:24
Speaker
No, fair enough. Fair enough. I think, yeah, that's a good explanation, but I can't choose between them. I really can't. Yeah, fair enough. It is almost impossible to be fair.
Italy's Midfield Legends
00:11:37
Speaker
Okay. Italy's best World Cup defender ever. So I'm going to give you the short list here. This could have been about 30 names long. So don't start shouting if you're one of your favorite defenders out there because Italy has produced so many incredible world class defenders over the years.
00:11:54
Speaker
It's yeah, it's a joke really. So, Taisizio Bugnich in defense, he was part of the Grande Inter team in the 60s. He played in three World Cups, 66, 70, 74. He was right back in the center back, also played at sweeper. He was nicknamed The Rock. He was really just a real strong defender, tenacious, really quick, very, very good in the air.
00:12:21
Speaker
and one of the famous quotes about Pele comes from Bergenich because he was marking him in the final in 1970 and when Pele scored his header it was his leap over Bergenich that scored that goal and he said I told myself before the game
00:12:37
Speaker
He's made of skin and bones, just like everyone else, but I was wrong. So that was Bergenich on Pele. Paquetti, Jacinto Paquetti, also part of the Glandienza. For me, Italy's greatest left-back of all time after Paolo Maldini. He was one of the first, he was a really revolutionary defender. He was a real trail raiser, one of the first offensive fullbacks in Europe, back in that time in the 60s and 70s.
00:13:01
Speaker
and even really into the 80s to be honest even into the 90s in some cases you know defenders his jobs were to defend you know you get a lot of defenders who wouldn't even cross the halfway line you know Faketti really was one of the first along with some of the Brazilians you know one of the first to certainly in Europe the maybe the first big famous defender to to really be an attacking fullback and get up and down the pitch called a lot of goals and
00:13:25
Speaker
you know tall elegant he was a leader he was the captain of italy uh at the 1970 he played in 66 70 and 74 he's captain of 1774 uh he also kept him when they won euro 68 uh really really handsome guy as well really looked the part you know when we say about Italian footballers having the best looking footballers you know Faketti was the good example of that and he was a yeah he was a fantastic fantastic player
00:13:49
Speaker
Antonio Cabrini played in 78, 82, 86. Another offensive left back, very good technically, fantastic crosser and he was a really crucial part. He was actually voted young player of the tournament in the 1978 World Cup
00:14:07
Speaker
and he was a crucial part of the team in the 82 tournament. He provided the cross for Rossi's header for the first goal in that famous 3-2 win against Brazil and he also missed a penalty, became the first player ever to miss a penalty in a World Cup final against Germany, West Germany in that final but luckily it didn't.
00:14:26
Speaker
It didn't come back to Horned Italy, actually, he was watching a documentary the other day, he was actually in tears and crying at half-time in that game against Germany because Italy went in at nil, nil at half-time and then they came out and they won 3-1. Also part of that team, Claudio Gentile played at 78 and 82.
00:14:47
Speaker
His name really was quite ironic because he definitely wasn't gentle. He was one of the most famous or infamous hard men of European football. Absolutely fantastic world class man marker, man marked Maradona and Zico in that tournament. I think he fouled Maradona about 10 times in that game against Zico. He actually tore Zico's shirt in half at one point in that game and he just was feared by everyone.
00:15:17
Speaker
kempers mario kempers i remember once said something along the lines of. Cardiogen see they would follow you everywhere you into the toilet you know he was he was just an incredible back in the days when man marking was still a thing you don't get them anymore anymore really.
00:15:34
Speaker
And then he had Gaetano Chirre, who was the good cop to Claudio Gentido's bad cop. They both, along with Cabrini, they both played for that great Trappatoni Juventus team that dominated Italian and European football. They won all three European Cups between them at that time. And these two formed a fantastic partnership. And Chirre was the elegant Libro. He was the guy that read the game, kind of the Beckenbauer player.
00:16:01
Speaker
in defense. He brought the ball out from defense and created and started counter-attacks and you saw that. If you'd watched the second goal that Italy scored in the 1982 final, Ruchirre coming out of defense and he did that fantastically and he died tragically at a very, very young age just after I think it was 1989. He was a scout for the event as he died in an accident, a car accident and it was very, very sad. One of the most tragic days of
00:16:29
Speaker
Italian sport when she died. Giuseppe Bergami, who was also in that 82 team, he was only 18 years old at the 1982 World Cup, and he went on and played in four World Cups and
00:16:47
Speaker
was still playing for Italy in the 1998 World Cup at the age of 34 and had a fantastic brilliant tournament for Italy at the age of 34. Just like he did in 1982 at the age of 18 where he's already had a moustache, he already looked about 30 in that World Cup. He was again a brilliant defender, fantastic marker, man marker, very, very brilliant tactically and he man marked the rumeniger who was the star man of West Germany in that 1982 World Cup final and didn't
00:17:15
Speaker
Didn't give him didn't get a kick room in the guy that just showed what phenomenon what one the kitty was and he had a Absolutely legendary career for Italy and for into as well
00:17:25
Speaker
brilliant player. Pietro Vieccawood also in the 82 World Cup squad although he didn't play. Maradona said that he was the toughest ever opponent he had. He was and he wasn't the only one that said that. Linneke said that. Batistuta said that he was nicknamed the Tsar because he's the son of a Red Army soldier. He was half Soviet and
00:17:47
Speaker
he was the quickest defender maybe I've ever seen. I remember he was still playing in Serie A at the age of 40, and he's still there at the age of 40. No one could outpace him. And he played for Italy 86 as a regular, and in 1990 as well. And he was absolutely magnificent. Franco Parese, of course, we're only against the Milan guys now. He was also in the 82 World Cup squad, and he didn't even get a kick in that. He also played in 1990 and 94, where he was a key man.
00:18:17
Speaker
the part of that 1990 defence which was virtually unbeatable, it was unbeatable if it wasn't for the mistake from Zenga that Italy didn't concede a goal until then, barely conceded a chance in that tournament and then at 1994 when he was the age of 34 he suffered a meniscus injury in his first game, had knee surgery and returned three weeks later for the final. I mean
00:18:41
Speaker
unbelievable. I think he still had like something in his knee a plate in his knee or something and he marked Romario in that final and was man of the match and unfortunately missed the penalty but you know what a player for me the greatest club centre that there's ever been no doubt about it for me. I think at his peak I don't think there's been a defender ever better than him
00:19:02
Speaker
Paolo Maldini next, getting out of breath here. There's so many Italian defenders. 1990, 1994, 1998, 2002, played in four World Cups. He's got the record for most minutes played in World Cup matches in history. The second most matches after Lota Mateus. He was in two teams of the tournament. He was actually also in three teams of the tournament for the Euros. I mean, that's just ridiculous. He's in five teams of the tournament for it to be just absolutely insane. Played as a left back and a center back equally well.
00:19:32
Speaker
played a lot of the 94 coming in as a centre back because of Berezi's injury that I mentioned. He was actually world class in those first few moments. 2002, he had a bit of a difficult time in 2002. He lost
00:19:46
Speaker
arm for that goal but I mean that goal should never have been because it had been cheated already so let's not count that but he was absolutely magnificent. Kosta Kurta played in 94-98, partner of Maldini for Milan, partner of Berezi I should say, he missed the 94 World Cup.
00:20:02
Speaker
through suspension that same year but also missed the Champions League final for Milan against Barcelona, also through suspension. He was really unlucky that year but he was again another world-class defender. And then finally we get onto the gang of 2006. We've got Fabio Canavaro who played in 1998, 2002, 2006, 2010. For me, and I was at that World Cup in Germany, I watched every single Italy game live except for the final.
00:20:27
Speaker
I've never seen live or on TV a higher level of performance by a defender game after game consistency wise than Canavaro did in that 2006 World Cup. He was literally
00:20:40
Speaker
just just it was just it was just a clinic a defensive clinic every single game for the number of interceptions and tackles and then you've got the leadership and he was brilliant in the air when everything in the air despite his small stature he was just absolutely magnificent and that semifinal against Germany was one of the greatest
00:21:00
Speaker
defensive performances I've ever seen. He just was everywhere. So many tackles and blocks. And he started the goal for the Italy's second goal for Del Piero. I mean, he was brilliant, as was Gianluca Zambrata, who played as a Italy's left back or right back in that tournament in 2006 and also played in 2002. And then finally, just as a kind of a one-hit wonder and a kind of surprise, Fabio Glosso in 2006 was the real surprise.
00:21:26
Speaker
of that tournament and obviously scored the goal against Germany and got them to the final and then also scored the winning penalty in the final. He also won a crucial penalty against Australia in the second round which Tossie scored in the last kick of the game in injury time. He was a very surprised hero for Italy in 2006.
00:21:49
Speaker
I'm going to take a breather now. Tell me what you think. This is the thing, though. I mean, again, with the goalkeepers and defenders, because Italy have had so many, you know, superstars, it's impossible to pick one. But the one that I've chosen is because is one that
00:22:13
Speaker
is the one that may have not won the World Cup, but the level he played at consistently throughout his career at club and international level for Italy. Played in one final, won a bronze medal in the final 94. Should have probably won it in 2002 if it wasn't for certain people in the very, very weird World Cup.
00:22:40
Speaker
Look, it's Paolo Maldini. I don't think anyone comes close to Maldini. For me, he's the greatest defender of all time. I think the level he played at and the fact that he played it as a left-back, as a centre-back, he played as a wing-back for Italy in a 3-5-2, and he did so at a consistently fantastic level year after year after year.
00:23:06
Speaker
I don't think it matters that he didn't win the World Cup, because I don't think anyone has ever been as good as he has been. For me, he is the greatest defender of all time, and yeah, it's Paolo Maldini for me. Yeah, I think that there's so many great players here, but I think what separates Maldini from the rest is that he was world-class in three tournaments.
00:23:31
Speaker
And in all of those three tournaments, Italy got deep as well. 1990, they got to the semis. Well, then they won the third place playoff as well. You know, 94, they got to the final. So he played the maximum amount of games in those two tournaments. And then 98, they got to the quarterfinal and he was absolutely well-class in all three of them.
00:23:50
Speaker
how many how many defenders in any nation do you know that were world-class in three tournaments you know the best you know among the top defenders in the whole tournament in all three tournaments you know so for that reason i think i have to go for maldini if i was picking a greatest ever performance by a defender in a world cup i would go for canavari um because like i said in 2006 he was
00:24:18
Speaker
literally the highest level that defender could be in every single game. He was perfect in every game. He was just faultless. He was like watching an alien play. I can remember just saying to my friend Pep that I was watching it with during, I can remember just saying every game, this is just absolutely ridiculous watching kind of our life, just watching him, not just because you see things off the, you know, live that you don't see on the pitch, just his whole leadership and the way that he mastered the fence and he organized them and held the line and everything, as well as everything that you see on the TV. I mean,
00:24:47
Speaker
just amazing, amazing. Whereas these other players, even those that had great tournaments, Gentile and Shirer were amazing, world-class in two tournaments each, Cabrini maybe as well. And then, Berezi,
00:25:05
Speaker
But he didn't play much in 94, world class in 90, but only played like a couple of games in 94. So yeah, if you're looking at the longevity, I think Maldini, Maldini for me as well. Yeah, I can't get past, I mean, he was, I know he for me is the best defender of all time.
00:25:24
Speaker
genuinely. I think no one in my lifetime that I've seen and even before comes up to the level. I mean, we've had players that have been trailblazers
Greatest Italian Forwards
00:25:33
Speaker
and interpreted roles differently as wing backs and central defenders, but to play at that level for as long as he did
00:25:42
Speaker
and I think that's what wins it for him because you know I mean then he got Berezi as well you got Berezi but you know he was he was I mean for me it's always out Berezi and Maldini for greatest defender of all time always it's always out of those two uh oh well for second and third place for first place is obviously Van Dijk but second and third is is Maldini and Berezi
00:26:05
Speaker
Okay, right, let's move on to Italy's best World Cup midfielder ever. So I'm going to go through the shortlist here and there's not as many as there is in defence because, weirdly enough, we were discussing this on a recent pod, weren't we, how Italy has this golden age of central midfielders right now, whereas
00:26:28
Speaker
for most of Italy's history, Italy's produced, haven't they? They produced so many incredible defenders and so many incredible attackers and abundance and goalkeepers, but midfield, central midfielders anyway. Not as many, really. Well, not that many at all, actually, to be honest.
00:26:48
Speaker
So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna go for the best because and just bear in mind that I've only I mean, I'm looking at central central midfielders I mean central midfielders and attacking midfielders and defense because wingers I've got a separate category for them I want to do a separate one separate one for them because when you think of midfielders you generally always think of kind of central more central based don't you and then the wide midfielders or wingers, so I
00:27:10
Speaker
Central midfielders right so first of all we've got from the 1930s Italy of course won the 1934 and 1938 World Cup we've got Luis Monti who played for the only player I believe unless I'm forgetting someone who played in two World Cup finals for two different teams he played for Argentina and
00:27:27
Speaker
In 1930 they reached the final, lost to Uruguay, the first ever World Cup final, and then he was part of the Oriondi that Mussolini managed to steal for Italy for 1934. He was one of their key men and then winning the 1934 final.
00:27:43
Speaker
Then, of course, we've got someone who everyone will have heard of, Giuseppe Meazza, who was Italy's star man in 1934 and 1938. I mean, he played as a midfielder and the forward, the formations back then were kind of a bit different than they are now, kind of the WM formations and the like. And he was
00:28:02
Speaker
the Mitoldo system as well and he was kind of sort of in between a little bit but I'll put him in the midfield category here. He's still the second highest scorer in Italy's history, he was player of the tournament in 1934, he got two assists in the final in 1938
00:28:18
Speaker
And he got the famous winner against the favorites Brazil in the 1938 semi when he scored the penalty where his shorts actually fell down as he was taking the penalty and he had to hold them up, the elastic broke, he had to hold them up while he was taking the penalty. And there is actually images of that, so that is actually a true story.
00:28:39
Speaker
Gianni Rivera in 1962, 1966, 1970 and 1974. He was the original Golden Boy of Italian football, a long time before the likes of Del Piero and Baggio and Totti and these like. He didn't always have an easy international career that Italy couldn't always find a way to play him and
00:29:03
Speaker
and Mazzola together, that he was his great rival, Rivera was Milan, Mazzola was Inter, and they never found a way, a bit like for those English football fans, a bit like Lampard, Gerard, although they were totally different players. They were more classy players than they were, but they could never fit them in the same team. And it's quite funny because Italy got to the final of the 1970 tournament with the two of them playing what kind of to translate, it was kind of it's called the relay.
00:29:34
Speaker
where the first half would be played by Matt Zola and the second half would be played by Rivera, and they did that throughout the tournament up until the final, which was kind of a weird way of playing. But Rivera did still play an important role. He scored the winner in that famous 1970 semi-final against Germany, which was Germany, that was 4-3, the game of the century as it was known as. But he always was much better for Milan than he was for Italy.
00:30:02
Speaker
Then we've got Mazzola himself, was a player in 66, 70 and 74. He was absolutely fantastic in 1970. He was the son of Valentino Mazzola, who was the star of the Grande Torino team, who all perished in a tragic plane crash in a superga
00:30:25
Speaker
Air tragedy, plane tragedy in 1949. Valentino died. He was Italy's best greatest player of the time. He was a world star, global star. He died. His son went on to become just as equally legendary player and he was part of the Grande Inter team. Really elegant, goal scoring, attacking midfielder, brilliant player, brilliant playmaker, creativity.
00:30:50
Speaker
Moving forward, Romeo Benetti, who was like the Gattuso of the 70s for Italy, he was a real, just looking at him, he was, when you talk about hard men, he was really tough. He was, even Gentile would be scared of him, just to look at, he was tough as nails.
00:31:07
Speaker
real strong, biting tackler. And he was part of the really the great 78 team. He was like the veteran, like they had a very young team in the 1978 World Cup that did so, so well and almost reached the final. And he was like the one kind of old player in that team, him and Zof, the old outfield player that kind of provided the experience and
00:31:28
Speaker
He was really, really good. Then we've got Giancarlo Antonioni, who was a much more elegant player, Fiorentina legend, and he was absolutely brilliant in the 78, playmaker, creative, and again in 1982, part of the wonderful midfield with Tardelli and Bruno Conti.
00:31:49
Speaker
He played an important role in that win over Brazil and then he got injured in the semi-final for Italy in 1982 against Poland and then missed the final in 1982 but he was a wonderful player. Got a lot of injuries later on in his career, broke his leg quite a lot actually.
00:32:08
Speaker
Then we move on to Marco Tardelli, who everyone will know, of course, from the 1982 World Cup and probably the most famous World Cup final celebration, I think it's safe to say. For his screen, Tardelli's screen, he's got the second goal in that final win over West Germany. He also played in 1978 and in
00:32:32
Speaker
86 although I don't think he got any minutes in 86 he was well past his best by then but 78 and 82 he was world-class central midfielder and he was just the complete midfielder he did everything he was a fantastic he could run he would fantastic presser stamina fantastic tackler but he also boxed the box got scored goals good passer he was he could do everything he was he was the all-action mid central midfielder wonderful player every single team would have him in their team basically
00:33:02
Speaker
Giuseppe Gianini played in 1990, Roma, Roma legend. The Prince, he was his nickname, if I remember correctly, scored against the USA in 1990, elegant, creative, attacking the fielder. Then we've got Dino Baggio.
00:33:18
Speaker
who probably wasn't an amazing player but he had an amazing world cup for Italy in 1994. He was one of the stars of the tournament actually for Italy. He really got hot in that tournament and he scored an absolutely crucial goal against Norway in the second round when Italy looked like they were about to go out. It was down to 10 men in that game. They got Paluka sent off, they'd lost their opening game to Ireland, looked like they were going to go out. He scored a headache, great on headers, very tall, lanky midfielder.
00:33:44
Speaker
scored a header, Italy won the game and then he scored a brilliant long-range goal, a good long shot on him against Spain in the quarterfinal, they won that game 2-1. Really really great in night four, it wasn't a fantastic player but he was really great in that tournament. Albertini also played in that night four World Cup, also played in 98, yeah really kind of
00:34:06
Speaker
reduced the kind of player that was, you know, just kept things ticking in the midfield, very good pass, a good range of passing, good technically, could be a little bit weak and flaky sometimes, maybe the kind of player that might not make it so much in today's age, but he was a very good player, also for that great Milan team that won dominated Italian football in the 90s, first half of the 90s. And then we move on to the 2000s, the 2006 World Cup, and of course, Andrea Pielo,
00:34:36
Speaker
who was absolutely brilliant in that 2006 World Cup. Three Man of the Matches in that 2006 World Cup was in the top three players of the tournament. If I remember correctly, I can't remember if he was second or third, but he was in the top three and he was manning the match in a final if I'm not mistaken. Also played in 2010 and 2014 although he was injured
00:35:00
Speaker
until the closing stages of that of that last game against Slovakia where even half fit he basically completely changed the game and Italy almost managed to sneak through and then in 2014 was one of the few players that was I guess could hold their head up high from the group stage play really well against England in the first game and his
00:35:20
Speaker
His partner, I'm really starting to lose my voice, his partner for Milan, in that great Milan team on the right, Carlo Ancelotti, Reno Gattuzo, who was the ball winner and PLO was the ball user, and Gattuzo was there again, like Benetti, as I said before.
00:35:38
Speaker
all over the pitch, putting in tackles, not a very Italian player, Italy not used to having these kind of players, but he was important because Italy didn't usually have them at the time. He played a very key role in Italy winning the World Cup, also played in 2002 and scored a goal that was disallowed for a totally non-existent offside which would have put Italy through against Korea, would have been the golden goal.
00:36:04
Speaker
So he was there in 2002 as well, but 2006, very, very key player then.
00:36:11
Speaker
Right. So central midfielders, I think, you know, it's it's difficult, like you said, because like you said, because, you know, goalkeepers, defenders and strikers have been always Italy's strength and their best players. But I think for me, Gianni Rivera and Andrea Pirlo are
00:36:35
Speaker
in a league of their own with Tardelli. I think those three are just head and shoulders above everyone else. Sandro Mazzola, obviously fantastic, but the biggest star of that age was Gianni Rivera. And so, you know, with everything he won and everything he did. So, no, it's got to be one of Pirlo or Gianni Rivera. But I think given that I've seen Pirlo play,
00:37:03
Speaker
And in 2006, Italy does not win the World Cup without Pirlo. So I think I have to go with Pirlo. Yeah, I mean, if we're picking the greatest ever Italian midfielder of all time, I probably would go Rivera or Pirlo. If we're going purely on
00:37:24
Speaker
just what they did in their career, how good they were. Rivera's performance for AC Milan in the 1969 European Cup Final where they thrashed Ajax 4-1, I've watched that game, is one of the greatest, and it's never talked about, obviously it's a long time ago, so a lot of people haven't seen it. Those of you listening, see, I mean, YouTube, you might be able to find it on YouTube, the full game. If not, there's a site called Footballia,
00:37:49
Speaker
Football, IA, Google that, it's got an incredible massive database of past football games. You'll find it there. Watch January Rivera's performance against AX in that game. It was absolute genius in that game. He just completed, it was the Johan Cruyff's AX team. It was just before AX became the absolute all dominant team, but they were still a fantastic team.
00:38:10
Speaker
and he was he was absolutely absolutely brilliant but for Italy like I said before he never he never really done it he didn't you know he wasn't even a starter in 70 and you know he came on mainly as a sub and
00:38:27
Speaker
you know, 66 Italy were a disaster. They went out in the group stages to North Korea, and 62 again, they went out in the group stages after that battle of Santiago against Chile, you know, and then 74 Italy went out in the group stages again, and everybody was really past their best in that tournament, including Rivera and Mazzola. So, you know, I don't, I wouldn't include Rivera.
00:38:50
Speaker
for that reason. But purely at World Cups, for me, it's out of two players. It's out of Tardelli and Pilar for me. And so I'm going to go just to mix things up, I'm going to go for Tardelli. I'm going to go for Tardelli because he was world class in 78 and in 82 as well. And yeah, he scored that goal in the final. And yeah, so I'm going to go I'm going to go for Tardelli. But
00:39:18
Speaker
Absolutely PLO. Tardelion PLO, the definite top two for me.
00:39:23
Speaker
Okay, right this one I'm gonna do a little bit faster. There's not many on the short list here So it's these best World Cup winger of all time So I've gone for in my short list Angelo Domingini. He played the 1970 World Cup. He was fast skillful Skull scoring windows again part of the grande into the 60s but also part of calories famous scurrato winning team of 1970 along with Gigi Riva and
00:39:48
Speaker
Then I've got Franco Calzio, a huge fan of this guy, played in 1974, 78 and 82. He was absolutely amazing in 1978, just unstoppable in 78. He was so fast, skillful, he was strong, scored goals. If you go right and left, he just terrorised full-backs.
00:40:10
Speaker
One of the biggest mistakes in by an Italian manager of all-time one Which I would love to know the answer if I ever get an interview with Vanco Calzio with someone from the 1970-18 I will ask this question is Italy were playing Holland in the second group stage of 1978 World Cup. They had to beat Holland to get into the finals play Argentina in the final. They were 1-0 up at halftime Calzio had Absolutely destroyed was destroying Holland. He was clear man in the match. He was absolutely terrorizing their left back
00:40:40
Speaker
whose name I've forgotten. He was left back. I think he ended up being in Southampton. He became the manager of Southampton a couple of decades later. I've forgotten his name. Calzio was destroying him and he was creating chance after chance for them. For some reason, I do not know why, but Enzo Beertzot took Calzio off at half time, went defensive and they tried to hold on to their lead. The old
00:41:03
Speaker
Italian way of your head try and hold on to what you've got and then Holland scored these two long shots and Italy and Italy went out and then played in the third and fourth playoff, Holland went to the final. I will never understand that Calzio was magnificent and he was in the 82 squad he didn't play much he did come on in the final for the last few minutes but he was he was old by then he was I think he was like in his 30s by then but
00:41:25
Speaker
1978 he was absolutely at the peak of his powers. Then we've got Bruno Conti played in 1982 and 86 and he was one of the players of the tournament in 1982. In fact for me he was the player of the tournament in 1982 for me. In fact Pele called him the player of the tournament in 1982. He was left-footed, Roma legend, incredibly skillful, fantastic left foot. Watched him in the 1982 game against Brazil in the
00:41:54
Speaker
in the famous 3-2. He ran rings against them around them in that game. He got three assists in the tournament. He was man in the match in the final. He got an assist and a hockey assist in that final and he won the penalty, which I said as I said before, Cabrini missed. He was labelled Mada Zico at that tournament. That's a combination of the names Maradona and Zico.
00:42:14
Speaker
an absolutely fantastic player. Unbelievable player to watch as well. So exciting to watch. Then we've got Roberto Donadoni, Milan legend, played in 1990 and 1994. For me, one of the most underrated players, people forget about him because that Milan team was so great with the three Dutchmen, with Maldini, with Barrezi, with all the others that they had, that people forget about Donadoni, who was absolutely well-class himself. And again, incredibly skillful, brilliant at feints, crossing, he was so creative.
00:42:43
Speaker
and he yeah really important in that night especially that 1990 team he he had the shot that led to Scolacci's winner in the quarterfinal against Ireland and he was actually man of the match in that semi-final that I just knew brilliant in that semi taking players on for fun and as often happens in Penning Shoeres were usually the best player of the pitch that usually misses in Penning Shoeres always happens and he missed the the first Italy's first penalty or the
00:43:07
Speaker
the fourth penalty but it's the first one that Italy missed in that in that shootout and then Italy obviously went out and he was great in 94 we've got two assists in 94 as well and finally Mauro coming on as he played in 2006 and 2010 and yeah played his part in 2006 thought he had a good tournament in 2006 nothing amazing but but but yeah did did well. Nemo
00:43:31
Speaker
Um, for me, uh, I mean, Camaronese, Dona Doni, these are the ones I've seen, but, um, and obviously I have a, you know, especially Dona Doni was, I thought he was one of the best, like he was such an, he's such an institution, isn't he? But Bruno Conti is, is Bruno Conti. It's just, I think it's not even close. That's how much better he is than everyone else. Yeah. For the Italian national side, I mean.
00:43:59
Speaker
Yeah, for me, if we're talking about World Cups, for me it's out of Conti, Dona Doni and Calzio. But, you know, Calzio had one outstanding tournament and they come forth. Conti had one absolutely world-class tournament. For me, like I said, player of the tournament for me in 82. And then a decent tournament in 86 is one of the few decent players written in 86 in a bad team that went out second round.
00:44:23
Speaker
Dona Dona was brilliant in 90 and 94. But I just think, Conte, just by the fact that he was, for me, the best player of the tournament, many people's best player of the tournament. How many players in history can you say of an Italian player, he was player of the tournament? Maybe a few in history. Canavaro maybe in 2006.
00:44:46
Speaker
And that's maybe bad Joe in 94, maybe. There's not many. So for me, that's enough for Perconti to win. Yeah, me too.
00:44:57
Speaker
Right, finally, Italy's best World Cup forward ever.
Top Italian World Cup Coaches
00:45:02
Speaker
So we have... This is going to be a long one. I'll try a bit quicker because I literally am going to lose my voice. We've got Angelo Scavio who scored four goals in 1934 World Cup and scored the winner in the final. We've got Silvio Piola who was the second top scorer in 1938 World Cup, which Italy won as well with five goals scored two in the final.
00:45:25
Speaker
He actually scored 13-34 for Italy and would have scored more books for World War II. He's the third top scorer of all time for Italy and Steele, which is ridiculous, the top scorer in the history of Serie A, Lazio Legend. Then we've got Gigi Arriva, who is Italy's all-time leading scorer. He had an incredible left foot. His left foot was so powerful that he actually once broke the arm of a fan in the crowd when he took a shot and he went into the crowd.
00:45:49
Speaker
He was brilliant in the 1970 World Cup. He scored three goals. Unfortunately, his career ended very prematurely, around about the age of 30, even just before, because he broke his lick twice for Italy. Roberto Bonincenia, who actually scored Italy's goal in that World Cup 4-1 final, lost to Brazil in 1970. He played in 1974 as well. He scored two goals in 1970. Roberto Betagat, who was one of the
00:46:14
Speaker
Italy's first grey-haired footballers. He was the original white feather, absolutely fantastic in 1978 World Cup. He scored two goals, scored the winner against Argentina in the group stages. Argentina went on to win that tournament. He was in the team of the tournament in that he actually would have been the number nine in the 1982 World Cup instead of Paulo Rossi, but he was injured for that tournament or he would have played for Italy in 1982.
00:46:38
Speaker
he was brilliant he was he was a complete forward he could hold it up he was skillful he scored goals great and brilliant in the air sort of famous diving header for Italy against England in one game in a World Cup qualifier actually 478 and brilliant player Paolo Rossi played in 78 82 and then he was in the squad for 86 and
00:46:57
Speaker
three goals in 78, six in 82. He's a joint highest score in Italian ever in World Cups with nine goals. He was the silver ball, gone the silver ball as the second best player in 1978 World Cup, won the golden ball for the best player in 1982, the Ballon d'Or in 1982 and the top scorer in 1982. He just got so hot. He was, you know, when you think of the 1982 World Cup, he is what you do think of Paolo Rossi because he'd been out of the game for two years.
00:47:25
Speaker
because of the Totoneiro scandal, came back with virtually no playing time, we only played a few minutes in the last couple of games of the season, came into the World Cup, was awful in the group stages, totally out of rhythm, and then all of a sudden the last three games of the tournament scored six goals including the hatchery against Brazil, just an incredible, incredible story, an amazing person as well, very greatly missed, he died.
00:47:47
Speaker
a couple of years ago, the second anniversary, I think next week or the week after, amazing, amazing player, legend, absolute legend, and just such a clinical box in the box striker. Then we've got, talking of those, boxes in the box, Salvatore Scolacci, Toto Scolacci, who came out of nowhere in 1990, was a top scorer of Italian 96 goals.
00:48:10
Speaker
scored in every game except for the second game in 1990. He kind of disappeared pretty much soon after that. Well, he didn't really.
00:48:26
Speaker
never really hit the heights again. But yeah, that was a great story. The little Sicilian with the real vain burst in celebrations popping out of his face. He was an amazing story. Roberto Baggio, who was the other breakout star of Italian 19, played in 1990, 1994, 1998. For many, the greatest Italy national team player ever.
00:48:49
Speaker
nine goals in total, same as Rossi scored in all three of those tournaments, scored one of the greatest goals in World Cup history against Czechoslovakia in that 1990 World Cup. He single-handedly really almost took Italy to the final in 1994, pretty much single-handedly. I mean, Italy were about to go out
00:49:06
Speaker
in the second round against Nigeria. They were 1-0 down and Badgers scored in the last minute to take them to extra time. Then he scored a penalty in extra time. Then he scored the last minute winner against Spain in the quarterfinal. Then he scored two goals, both goals against Bulgaria to win 2-1 in the semi-final. And then, unfortunately, he was injured for the final. He played, but he was playing with painkillers and injections, and he struggled, and he was a struggle for him. And then, sadly, he missed the penalty, partly because of that in the shootout.
00:49:35
Speaker
He came back four years later at the age of 31 and he was still brilliant in 98 and he was so agonising that he had that volley against France which almost put Italy through. So Badjo, then he got Cristian Vieri, scored again nine goals, five goals in 98, four in 2002, would have been more but they got cheated. He was just an absolute monster, a beast.
00:49:56
Speaker
Just a huge powerful guy but you know fantastic left for great in the air. Would have gone to 2006 as well but he was injured and that maybe was a blessing because he was passed his best by then. And then finally Francesco Totti who I think sometimes gets unfairly criticized for his Italy career but actually when you look at his numbers he actually got seven assists.
00:50:17
Speaker
in the World Cup history in his two tournaments in 2002 and 2006, which is one of the most in the history of the World Cup. I think Maradona's got the record, I think, with nine or ten, if I'm not mistaken. So, you know, he's right up there and he got four in 2006, plus he scored that winner against Australia and he was only half fit in 2006 because he played with metal plates in his ankles after he had it broken a few months before the tournament and he still played an important role in Italy winning.
00:50:47
Speaker
There's your forwards. Name of who you got. I think Roberto Bage is my favorite Italian player of all time. I think he's the greatest Italian footballer of all time. But you can't go past Paolo Rossi. What he did, the way he won it, you know, golden balls, ballon doors, top goal scorer, and to win it, nah, but it has to be Paolo Rossi.
00:51:12
Speaker
has to be you didn't yeah and of course Silvio Piola for what he's done as well but I mean it was I think it's so difficult because it was a different kind of football back then it's impossible to also we haven't seen them play it's impossible I can't pick any of the players from the night in Ferris because I literally haven't watched them play have any seen the highlights very small highlights it's impossible to say I think you could the other person would be Gigi Riva because he was you know because of who he is but no it has to be Paolo Rossi for me
00:51:41
Speaker
The impact he has is no one comes close. Yeah. Yeah. For me, it's bad for me. It's bad. Joe Rossi. But, you know, I, yeah, it's tough out by Joe and Rossi because back. Rossi was like I said, he was the second best player in one tournament and the best player in another. So how can you go past that? But then Badger was brilliant in three tournaments is
00:52:08
Speaker
I'm going to go for Rossi just because he won the thing. Yeah, it has to be. Badger is just a deserved. And it's his best well-cut player ever. Oh, it's got to be Badger. Then we're just going on individual talent and I don't think Italy has ever produced a better footballer than Roberto Badger. It's just...
00:52:26
Speaker
to play for in the World Cup. I mean, I know people talk about the missing a penalty, but that's not why Italy lost. Italy wouldn't even be in that final if it wasn't for Roberto Bancho. And it's strange because it was a really good Italy side, but they were dreadful. I mean, the game against Ireland is probably, if not the worst, and one of the worst Italy performances I have ever seen.
00:52:46
Speaker
And he managed to drag this lifeless Italy side, despite the abundance of quality, to a final, all by his own, all on his own. And despite him getting on with Saki as well. Yeah, exactly. He didn't get on, Saki took him off. Took him off. Against Norway, where he went down to 10 men. Yeah, exactly. I mean, he still managed to take them all the way and he showed leadership.
00:53:13
Speaker
And he, now, look, Badger's the greatest Italian football of all time. It's as simple as that for me. Yeah, okay, I'm gonna go Badger as well. Again, that might sound contradictory. How can you put the best forward Rossi in the best World Cup play ever? Well, I look at it like this, what Rossi did. Rossi is, I mean, if you look at the impact in the, I'm not talking about, for me, I don't look at it. I look at what they actually did, the impact they had on Italy.
00:53:37
Speaker
and how they performed in the World Cup. And Rossi won Italy the World Cup. He scored goals that, you know, again,
Finalizing Italy's All-Time World Cup 11
00:53:46
Speaker
how did the impact they had in their heyday and Paolo Rossi was just, you know, what he did and the same with Gigi Riva. Those two are just head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of delivering results. But if we're just talking the individual talent,
00:54:06
Speaker
badger, badger all the way. Okay, let's go with that. And best World Cup coach. So we've got Pozzo, who jumped here to Pozzo, who won two tournaments in the 30s, 34 and 38. Successive, which is still the only person to win successive World Cups. I think I'm correct in saying.
00:54:28
Speaker
Ferruccio Valcareggi, who was World Cup coach, 70-74, took Italy to the final 70. Then we've got Enzo Bierza, who was coaching the great 78 and 82 teams. For many people, the 78 team was better than the 82 team. To be honest with you, I can see the argument for that. Then 86 was a bit of a lippy 2010, nowhere.
00:54:52
Speaker
kind of too loyal to the old guard in time and passing by. But yeah, obviously won the World Cup in 82. Isilio Vicini, 1990 World Cup, took them to the semis, should have won it. Arigosaki, 94, took them to the final. And then Marcello Lippi, of course, 2006, won the World Cup and then had the disappointment in 2010.
00:55:14
Speaker
Who are you going for? This is tricky one. This is difficult. This is difficult because we've not yet seen Roberto Mancini there. And I think he could, if for me, if Mancini wins the World Cup with Italy, then I think he's the greatest Italian manager of all time. I don't think anyone comes close to him.
00:55:31
Speaker
because of the way that he did. I mean, let's remember, when Saki had an amazing plethora of talent, Berzot, all these guys, they had fantastic talent. Lipi, I mean, just look at that squad, they're all legends, everyone in that squad pretty much, 90% of the players are an institution.
00:55:53
Speaker
But Mancini, look at what he took over and where Italy were and where he brought them. Sure, they missed a World Cup, but I mean, if he wins the World Cup, then I think, or if he takes them to a final of a World Cup and even loses, I'll hold Mancini higher than everyone else. But until that happens, look, my Lippi, Lippi 06, Berdzot 82, take your pick, I don't know.
00:56:22
Speaker
Yeah, I'm going for Beersock purely because he had two great tournaments to Lippi's one. So he gets over Lippi for that. Lippi had the one great tournament in 2006, but then, let's be honest, 2010 was a total disaster and he was dreadful, Lippi. He was loyal to so many players that were past their best. He played really,
00:56:44
Speaker
boring football, rigid football with no identity or patterns of play, a bit like an eggery football actually in 2010, really bad, really bad football and didn't develop any players and you know, so I think, you know, I think Beatzot, even though 86 was quite a disaster in a similar way for Italy,
00:57:05
Speaker
he did have the 78 and 82 which were two amazing tournaments for Italy. Then you've got Val Carreggi who did great and gets the final 70 but then 74 was a disaster. You've got Saki who was amazing at Milan but I was never a fan of him for Italy to be honest with you. And then Pacini I think underperformed was that Italy team and 90 was so good and I think his tactics against
00:57:27
Speaker
against Argentina where he tried to hold on to the lead at 1-0. It's a really poor Argentina team, cost Italy. And Pozzo, I'd like to say, Pozzo statistically is the best Italy coach because he won two World Cups in success here. But again, I can't judge
00:57:44
Speaker
I can't judge him because I haven't seen any of the games and I really don't think it's just impossible. It feels wrong to just discard football from that time, but I can't base on anything I've seen. The thing is, I really believe that because the game has changed so much, it really is a different game. I think you really can divide football into three eras.
00:58:05
Speaker
you know, the pre-58 era, the 58 to 78 era, and then from then to 90 and then 94 and onwards, because the game has changed so much, the rules have changed so much, everything has changed so much. So I think it's, yeah, I look at it like that. Yeah, yeah, okay, right. Let's finish this off.
00:58:34
Speaker
Best Italy World Cup 11 of all time. So pick your 11 from all these names. I'll give you time to do yours. I've just been doing mine now while I leave you speaking. So I'm gonna actually, I'm gonna go for a 5-3-2 because most of Italy's talent is in defense. And so I wanna have more, I want everything to be more condensed in defense. So I'm gonna go for a 5-3-2. My goalkeeper,
00:59:04
Speaker
Again, it could be Buffon, it could be Zof. It is absolutely impossible to choose between the two of them, but I'll go Buffon. Then in defence, I'm going to go Gentile right back, then the three centre backs, I'm going to go Baresi,
00:59:19
Speaker
Canavaro and Chirre, and then I'm going to go Maldini at left back. There's so many defenders that could get in. I feel bad leaving out Faketti. I feel bad leaving out Cabrini. I mean, there's so many that I could have in there, but those are my five in defense.
00:59:38
Speaker
Then in midfield, I think Pierloan Tardelli absolutely have to be in there as the two sentiment fielders. I mean, I'm playing a system here without wingers, but Bruno Conti has to be in it, so I don't care. He can play in sentiment fields. He has to be in it. There's no way I'm leaving him out. So Bruno Conti is in my third central midfielder. And then in attack,
01:00:07
Speaker
I think it has to be Bad Gio and Paolo Rossi. I think those have to be the two, the only ones that could maybe... Cristian Vieri has an argument, but like his tournaments, Italy got to the last 16 in the quarterfinals, so he never played in a game or scored in a game past the quarterfinals onwards.
01:00:30
Speaker
you know, the others did. And Gigi Riva, I guess, yeah, you could make an argument for him, but he only actually only scored three World Cup goals, say only. So, you know, so I think, yeah, he's below, he's below those two. So yeah, Badjo and Badjo and Rossi up front.
01:00:49
Speaker
I've pretty much got the same. The only difference is I would I would have moved
Western Media Critique during World Cup
01:00:53
Speaker
Maldini to the middle because I want to have Faketi as a left wing back because he was outstanding there. So I would probably move Shireya out and have Baresi Kanavaro-Maldini and Faketi and Gentilla to the right. As for Pierlo, Tardelli Conti, yeah, I can live with that. I can live with that. And Bajo Rossi, it's hard to argue with that.
01:01:18
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It certainly is. That would be some struggles. I bet those two would have worked really well together. I think so as well. We've actually been a perfect strike partnership. They really would have. Badger is a support striker. Rossi is the striker making his runs. Badger putting him through. That would be...
01:01:39
Speaker
would be a cheap code, some would say. Yes, it would. Some would say. Some would say. Okay, right. We've gone on a little bit. So let's just, this just, you know what, you know what, we're way over. I was going to do a segment today on
01:01:55
Speaker
discussing the World Cup and the end of match day two and which teams have been pressed as most, which is disappointing. Let's park that. Let's do it on Thursday. Let's do it on Thursday's show because the group stages will be virtually over. We'll only have, I think, two matches left.
01:02:13
Speaker
looking at the groups, I think Brazil, hopefully, and we're recording this on Monday before Brazil play their game, the chances are that Brazil and maybe Portugal will have qualified, in which case, you know, we'll almost know everyone that's through, basically.
01:02:29
Speaker
You know all the main teams are through so let's leave that there and what we will do is we want to discuss Which teams have impressed us the most and which teams have disappointed us the most and pick out some some main themes from from each team So we'll do that. We'll do that at the end of the group stages That would be a good good cutoff point and but one one World Cup topic I do want to well, I'm not going to discuss it. It's just going to be a it's just going to be nimmer going off on one is Jurgen Klinsman's comments on on Iran because he really has
01:02:58
Speaker
angered and upset and insulted an entire nation really with his original quotes, his original comments about Iran after their game against Wales, right? Yeah, it was after the game against Wales. He basically says it's in Iran's culture to basically cheat, right? To waste time. Yeah, he's talking about, I mean, I've got the full quote here. He says,
01:03:25
Speaker
He starts by saying it's not by coincidence, it's part of their culture, it's how they play, they work the referee, they work the linesman and the fourth official, they're constantly in their ear. There were a lot of incidents we didn't see. This is their culture, they take you off your game. And then he goes on a rant about K. Roche, the coach,
01:03:47
Speaker
saying that, you know, he says, Carlos fits really well with the national team and their culture. He failed in South America with Colombia and then failed to qualify with Egypt. And he came in right before the World Cup around where he worked for a long time.
01:04:02
Speaker
It would have been different. And then he goes off about on the referee as well, saying that, you know, this was the referee would not have allowed whatever Iran did. It would have been a different and with a different referee. They have five people around the referee. This is not going to play into the hands of Wales. Now, as this tirade is going on on BBC, they're showing images from the game. And the irony is in all of this is that the images show exactly the opposite. They're showing Welsh players fouling Iranian players.
01:04:31
Speaker
So it's quite obvious that they had decided beforehand that this was the narrative they're going to go with, that the facts be damned. And so what they're saying and talking about is not reflected in the images being shown. Obviously, Wales had a player sent off.
01:04:47
Speaker
for a very blatant red card on the goalkeeper, Hennessy. So, it was just, you know, and Keros, of course, replies to this. He puts out a post on his social media saying that, Dear Jurgen, you took the initiative to call me Carlos, so I believe it's only proper I call you Jurgen, right?
01:05:10
Speaker
Even not knowing me personally, you question my character with a typical prejudiced judgment of superiority. No matter how much I can respect what you did inside the pitch, those remarks about Iranian culture, Iranian national team and my players are a disgrace to football. No one can hurt our integrity if it is not at our level, of course. Even saying so, we would like to invite you as our guests to come to our national team camp, socialize with Iranian players and learn from them about the country, the people of Iran, the poetry, the art, the algebra,
01:05:39
Speaker
the millennial old Persian culture, and also listen from our players how much they love and respect football. As an American German, we understand you're no support, no problem. And despite your outrageous remarks on BBC trying to undermine our efforts, sacrifices and skills, we promise you that we will not produce any judgment regarding your culture, roots and background and what you will always be welcome to our family. At the same time, we just want to follow with full attention what will be the decision of FIFA
01:06:08
Speaker
regarding your position as a member of Qatar 2022 technical study group, because obviously we expect you to resign before visiting our camp. Now afterwards, of course, then yesterday on BBC, Klinsman goes, is on, sorry? Gary Lineker. Gary Lineker re-offered in, I think Marisio Pochettino is sitting there as well.
01:06:36
Speaker
And he's on BBC. He goes on BBC Breakfast Show and says that his comments have been taken out of context. He didn't mean it. He wasn't saying that. And he went on to talk about that he was
01:06:57
Speaker
that he was saying there was stuff really taken out of context. I will call him and try to calm things down. I was describing their emotional way of doing things, which is actually admirable in a certain way. He says on BBC in the earlier in the morning, the whole bench leaves the game. They're jumping up and down and Carlos is a very emotional coach. He's constantly on the sidelines trying to give his players all the energy and direction.
01:07:21
Speaker
He took it completely wrong. He tells Gary Lineker, what I described was the emotional impact they had from the bench, the players jumping up and talking to everyone on the sidelines. He took it the wrong way. He thought I criticized him, which was not the case. It's no problem at all. Maybe they took it wrong because they see me as a former USA coach. And so maybe they feel a little bit provoked, which was not the case. I mean,
01:07:46
Speaker
And then, of course, everyone is laughing at him because that's not what happened. He said four times about how this is their culture, their culture, their culture, claiming that there is a connection between where one's ethnicity is from and gamesmanship, as they tried to call it.
01:08:10
Speaker
which is ridiculous. That's just not true, and the game itself should prove that if you were actually watching it. The fact that he would say that is borderline racist, if not racist.
01:08:29
Speaker
to say that a certain culture is just like that based on one game. And the reason why I say one game is because he does not even know anything about Iranian football. Before the World Cup, he was on TV saying that he had watched Iran because he'd seen them in the Arab Cup.
01:08:48
Speaker
He doesn't know anything about Iranian football. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And that's OK. You don't need to know everything about every team in the world. That's fine. You don't know what you're talking about. But to make these sweeping statements and then when somebody and misspeaking and then when somebody calls you out and said, hang on a minute, this is out of order.
01:09:07
Speaker
you then turn around and gaslight them and say that, no, not only did I not mean that, but you you're the ones with the problems because you you're thinking that I'm coming from an American perspective, which nobody had, to be honest, nobody even remembers or even cares that he was the coach of the United States. Got nothing to do with this. And then, of course, that landed really flatly. And then today he goes out on Twitter
01:09:33
Speaker
And he tries the third time, he tries to clean this mess up and he says, my comments on the Wales v Iran game were purely football related. Unfortunately, this was taken out of a footballing context. I have many Iranian friends and was always full of compliments for their people, culture and history. I wish them only the best for the tournament.
01:09:53
Speaker
So he goes and basically goes, I can't be racist because I've got a black friend shtick. That's literally what he's saying. And he's just digging himself deeper and deeper and deeper. And to be honest with you, I'm fed up with it. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of his nonsense. I'm tired of his sideshow.
01:10:12
Speaker
I don't want to talk about that. I don't care about it. I don't care about his nonsense. He said something really stupid. I don't think Leogen Klinsman is a racist. I want to make that absolutely clear. I don't think so at all. But he did say something that was at least at the very minimum borderline racist, which can happen to anyone, which can anyone can say that can express themselves poorly or unambiguously and come off as saying something they didn't mean.
01:10:36
Speaker
That's perfectly fine. If we were to execute every person who said something stupid in their life or said something poorly in a way that they didn't mean it, they came out wrong, there'd be no humans left.
01:10:48
Speaker
It's as simple as that, but what I do have a problem with is this notion that you just can't admit that. Own it like an adult. Stop placing blame on others. Stop gaslighting. Just come out and say, look, this is what I meant. This is what I said. I can see that there's a disconnect between the two. I meant this.
01:11:10
Speaker
I understand that people are interpreted like that. That was not my intention. I apologize for expressing myself poorly, but I never meant this. Finished, done, over. There's nothing more to say.
01:11:23
Speaker
But the thing that annoys me the most is Gary Lineker and Rio Ferdinand who have been virtue signaling and politicizing everything under the sun about this World Cup for the last 12 years and everyone else in that studio, both of these occasions where this was aired, not once did they push back to him talking about culture, not one time. In fact,
01:11:46
Speaker
Gary Lineker asked him, can you understand why the most softball question I have ever heard? Can you understand why the Iranians might have been offended? I mean, just do one. I mean, it's so pathetic. They really are a spineless, supine cabal of cowards. That's all they are. And it's so pathetic. Can you imagine if Klinsman had said this about Israel?
01:12:15
Speaker
saying that it's in their culture, it's in Jewish culture. He would have been thrown out, and he would have been right to have been thrown out, because that's a really anti-Semitic thing to say. That's the point, isn't it? And this is what drives me crazy, is that there are some areas that are just no-go areas where there's other things that can be said, which are just totally accepted, like it's totally fine.
01:12:40
Speaker
And that definitely is the case with the Arab world, for sure, Muslim world, for sure, even the Italians, Italian, Latino, Mediterranean, South American, you know, that there's certain Mexicans, if we're talking about, say, United States, for example, you know, these things are
01:13:02
Speaker
These things are accepted. It's fine to call Italians divers and South Americans divers cheats. It's true. It's a trope. It's not true. If that were true 30, 40, 50 years ago, which I highly doubt anyway,
01:13:17
Speaker
But look, it's just not true because I mean, every team, team sport is about winning and everyone will do anything to win because otherwise you don't reach that kind of level, that winning mentality that all world class athletes have, this kind of never say die attitude. In the heat of the moment, they might cross the line for what's morally right, right? And they all want to win. But to connect that with a specific culture is just
01:13:47
Speaker
I mean, get out of here. It's ridiculous. Italians are no more cheaters than Swedes are. Why do you do this? The lack of pushback and challenge in here. That's exactly it. That's bad as well, because that's the one thing at the very least you would expect from a public broadcaster like the BBC. You would expect them to
01:14:10
Speaker
to not take sides or to at least provide both sides of the argument. If someone's going to provide the one side, like be totally one side like Klinsman was, you're going to get someone who will offer the other side of the argument or at least push back and didn't even get that. You didn't even get that at all. But you know, I don't expect anything less from Lineker. I think he's the most fake person in the world of football that there is.
01:14:35
Speaker
and every single person that I have met in the industry has only had bad things to say about him for that reason, how fake he is, how he tries to paint himself as a man of the people, as somebody, and everybody that I know that's ever had any dealings with him has just, have all said the same thing about him, you know? So, you know, it doesn't surprise him with him. He's a virtue, he's just a virtue signaling prick, basically. That's what it is. And what's also ironic about it,
01:15:03
Speaker
What's also ironic about it is that Jürgen Klinsmann, during his career, and Gary Linen... Thank you! I mean, Klinsmann! Klinsmann was famed for being the biggest diver. I mean, he really did bring dive in. If we want to go down the trope route in terms of bringing dive in, it's a thing we used to get 30 years ago, 25, 30 years ago, when the foreigners, you got the foreign influx of players into the Premier League, for example.
01:15:33
Speaker
And that, you know, used to always used to be one of the tropes used to be, oh, you know, all these foreigners they bring in diving into the Premier League. And that Klinsman was one of them. And Klinsman actually funnily enough.
01:15:44
Speaker
he actually had a celebration where he actually started, when he played for Tottenham, he scored his first goal. It was actually quite funny, to be fair. He celebrated by doing a Klinsman dive. He dived, and it became one of the celebrations. I remember when I was a kid, we used to do it. It became one of the celebrations to do when he scored a goal. Let's do a Klinsman dive celebration. He used to get in video games as well, and things like that. So Klinsman even played on it himself. Klinsman was a prolific diver. He dived in the 1990 World Cup Final.
01:16:14
Speaker
throughout the 1990 World Cup. He was a prolific diver. I remember it was a game against Czechoslovakia in the quarterfinal, where he dived to win. It was a non-existent penalty. Well, I think that was a penalty. That was the only penalty he won in that World Cup that actually was won. But if you look at the Argentina thing, yes, this is a reckless challenge. But his reaction, when he throws himself, he does that breakdance thing on a worm.
01:16:39
Speaker
when there was a reaction on the floor. Actually, was it Klinsman or Voler that won the penalty in the final? They always get mixed up. Oh no, that one. Föhle won the penalty in the final. Yeah, which was never a penalty in a million years either. It was a dive as well. But yeah, Klinsman was famed for being the biggest diver in the world. Biggest cheat, if you want to call it cheat. Well, both him and Föhle were known for diving. Like again, everyone has done this. This is not a problem. That's why I can't spat at him.
01:17:06
Speaker
Yeah, that entire incident. This is what I mean. Everyone has dived. Linneke himself, when he wasn't defecating his pants in Sicily. Well, he did. He dived for both penalties against Cameroon. In the end, we're going out of the World Cup. There were two ones down to Cameroon, and Linneke dived for both penalties. I actually pointed that out to him on Twitter one time during a discussion, and he blocked me.
01:17:33
Speaker
I mean, with an arrogant tweet, he said something like, you're not allowed to say something like that to me, you're blocked. Something like that. It's like, fuck, I weren't even following you anyway, mate. Yeah, don't like the guy at all. No, I mean, and also, I mean, this is the thing, though. It's
01:17:54
Speaker
I've got to be honest, the World Cup is always, I'm always going to watch it. But I've got to say, this World Cup, I mean, of course I care when Iran play. But other than that, I have not enjoyed this World Cup. And to be honest, they've kind of ruined the World Cup for me.
01:18:11
Speaker
Everyone, this entire narrative around this World Cup has ruined it for me. This hypocritical one-sided sanctimonious holier-than-thou nonsense from the mainstream Western pro-NATO media, let's be honest, has ruined it for me. The virtue signaling has been too much, the hypocrisy has been too much, and it's just ruined it for me. But I've got to say, I was speaking to
01:18:38
Speaker
There's a simple solution to that. Don't follow it on the mainstream media. Well, no, but yes, I know. But even when you try not to watch it, you see it on social media. This is the thing. I don't watch the BBC and yet this came up and I saw it. And it's just this nonstop barrage of bullshit. And it has ruined the World Cup. I watch every game because it's part of my job, but I don't enjoy it.
01:19:01
Speaker
And I care about how Iran played, but no, they've ruined. Honest to God, this World Cup, international football has been ruined for me. And I know many people feel the same way. But I
Reconnecting Over World Cup Atmosphere
01:19:11
Speaker
got to say, I was talking yesterday to a friend and a listener of this podcast, someone who I got to know via when I was studying in Wales, when I studied law in Wales, I became friends with another one of our listeners.
01:19:26
Speaker
there, and Jason is his name, and his friends. And Chris, he lives in America now, and we were talking on WhatsApp, and he was asking me how I felt about everything when Spoke went and catched up in a long while. And he lives in America, and he asked me about everything that's been going on, and we had a long conversation, and I told him how fed up I am with everything. But he did say,
01:19:50
Speaker
He did send me a message that I asked him if I can read up because it really resonated with me and it made me happy because there's another aspect of this as well that one doesn't always consider. His response
Positive Perspective on World Cup
01:20:02
Speaker
was, I thought it was an utter disgrace that the BBC didn't show the opening ceremony. As my dad said, I pay money for the BBC. I want to make my own mind up.
01:20:10
Speaker
And as you said, in the US, as for the US hosting the World Cup in 2026, more people died in the Iraq war because of the British and US armies than Qatar could ever dream of killing. However, the only good, great thing for me is how engaged my son has been. He's watched every game, researched every country. He now wants to visit Morocco now after the game one day.
01:20:32
Speaker
So maybe take solace in that, that young kids in America and all over the world are watching this World Cup in the Middle East and wanting to visit both the Middle East and North Africa. He's got his sticker book. He's got his iPad out for every game. There's no politics for him. He's just been absorbing the World Cup like we did when we were kids. For example,
Politics & World Cup Media Coverage
01:20:51
Speaker
back in World Cup 94, mate, I cried because Italy missed a penalty. I've never cared about Italy like that before.
01:20:58
Speaker
I mean, that to me is what the World Cup is about. Yeah, it's what the World Cup is about. I see it both sides. I do see both sides. I mean, you know, we shouldn't have free reign that, you know, countries that have got human rights, you know, guilty of human rights abuses should be able to, you know, host a tournament without anything being highlighted about it. Absolutely not. I mean, take the 1978 World Cup in Argentina, for example, where you had a fascist military dictatorship who were quite literally throwing
01:21:28
Speaker
you know, hundreds of, of, of, of political prisoners into the Rio de la Plata River every single day during the tournament, you know, and, and, and, you know, you know, this, this stuff should be highlighted. I think it's just what has got people is it's the hypocrisy and the selection that how selective it has been in the Western mainstream media, which has rubbed
01:21:52
Speaker
a lot of people up the wrong way. And, you know, I think also, you know, there is also an endowment of, you know, once you do open the door to this, it can, you know, where do you stop? I mean, I'm just on Twitter now and I'm just seeing that an Iranian journalist has just asked the United States manager about a naval ship, asking him why doesn't the, you know, why are you not asking your United States government to remove a naval ship, a US naval ship that's surrounding Iran?
01:22:22
Speaker
Well, this is what happens. I mean, this is the natural result of that, because when the BBC and all these U.S. and Western-based media ask these questions of Carlos Karos and Mehti Taremi, as if they're responsible for what happens politically in Iraq,
01:22:42
Speaker
Well, then you're going to give that back to you. Why are you so outraged and think it's ludicrous when it's asked back to you? But when you ask other people that, then it seems like the most normal thing ever. Then it's freedom of the press and freedom of this and freedom of that. Well, you see, look, shoes go on both feet. And also the United States men's national team, the US Soccer Federation, decided to change Iran's flag.
01:23:06
Speaker
the other day in a post, which is in complete violation of all of FIFA's rules. You don't get to decide what flags you use for what country because you don't agree with the politics. It's ridiculous. Either the rules apply for everyone or they don't apply to anyone. It's as simple as that. This is what it is. This is what I mean. It's this entitlement. It's this hypocritical entitlement that
01:23:31
Speaker
that I'm above it all. Do you know what I mean? For example, I saw another journalist quote tweeting, there was a video going around of Saudi Arabian minister of sport giving a very beautiful moment. He was talking to a Saudi Arabian player after the game against Poland, which they lost, and he made a mistake.
01:23:52
Speaker
and he was having a heart-to-heart with him. And this journalist quote tweeted that and said, oh, politics is now okay in sport. Well, if I remember correctly, Angela Merkel referred to the German national team as her boys for a decade.
01:24:08
Speaker
That was okay. Barack Obama phoned Tim Howard after they lost to Belgium, and the phone call was published everywhere. Look, if it's okay for them, it's okay for the others. It's this same sense of entitlement and selective outrage that is just so unbearable
01:24:30
Speaker
It's absolutely unbearable. And it just goes through all of everything they do in this mainstream media bubble in the West. And no one's buying it. Everyone has seen through it. I think if anything, as exhausting as this nonsense has been this World Cup, it's been a great unmasking. All the masks
Iran vs USA Game & Club Segments
01:24:49
Speaker
have fallen, all the illusions and bullshit has been completely, like everyone can see it clearly now.
01:24:55
Speaker
and what this is about. And it's never been about human rights. It's never been about migrant workers. It's about a smear job and a hit job on other cultures. Because if they really, really cared about human rights violations, then why would Qatar or Saudi be a military and strategic geopolitical ally of the United States and the UK?
01:25:19
Speaker
You know what I mean? You sell weapons to these countries so that you're allies, but you don't want them at the table because you look down on them in certain aspects. I mean, it just makes no sense whatsoever. There's no coherence. It's not just one standard. They have so many different standards for different people. And it's just unbearable. And everyone sees through it. And it's just pathetic, really.
01:25:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's move on now. Iran versus USA. We'll discuss that on Thursday. I haven't got time for it now. Well, no, we can't discuss it on Thursday because it's being played tomorrow. That's what I mean. We'll discuss the... Oh, the game. You wanted to preview. Okay. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. Okay. Right. Just a couple of segments before we finish. So first of all,
01:26:05
Speaker
two club related segments. First of all, Jakob Kywiel, who is a Spezia centre back playing for Poland at the World Cup, having a great season for Spezia and has had a really good start to the World Cup with Poland as well. They're looking in a good place to qualify for the next round. Now Juventus, Milan,
01:26:27
Speaker
and Napoli are all interested in signing Kiwi or also some Premier League clubs looking at him as well. So as we do now and again, we do profiles on some of these players. So Nima, what can you tell us about Kiwi?
01:26:40
Speaker
Well, I think he's had a World Cup that's on par with the season he's had at Spezia. He's only 22 years old. He was born February 15, 2000. He'll turn 23 soon.
01:26:59
Speaker
And he's really, really exploded onto the scene this year for both club and country, especially club. I've seen these links and I understand them, but he moved to Spezia in the summer of 2021, if I'm not mistaken.
01:27:27
Speaker
And he's been really, really good there. I mean, his youth team career, he was born in Tichy in Poland, but he had a youth career at Anderlecht. But then after that, he was sold to Emeszke Zielina. And he played there for about two seasons. And then he's gone on to Spezial, where he's been a mainstay, especially this season. So,
01:27:55
Speaker
he's been one of the, you know, together with Sabiri, I think he's been one of those, and Fajoli and many others, I think he's been one of those, you know, Sabiri is 25 years old, but if you're talking about players in Provedel, I mean, those who've really broken out this season, I think he's amongst those who've been absolutely outstanding. And I've really enjoyed watching him play, he's tough to play against.
01:28:16
Speaker
He's a good man marker and he knows how to annoy strikers without going over that line. It's a really interesting player. I can understand the links to Milan and to Juve.
01:28:35
Speaker
Yeah, and he plays as a centre back and he's playing for a team that, let's be honest, it's not a good team. No, they're not. At all. They're a poor team but he still managed to stand out even among these players. I remember watching him against Napoli in a game
01:28:59
Speaker
that Napoli won 1-0 with a 89th-minute goal from Raspadori. In that game, he was man of the match. He made tackle after block after block. He was absolutely magnificent in that game. He must have saved at least about 4-5.
01:29:17
Speaker
four or five goals in that game with last-gas blocks or interceptions. He seems to read the game really, really well. He spots the danger really well. He's a tough guy and he's actually second in Serie A for interceptions, for board interceptions. He's got 127
01:29:37
Speaker
interceptions in Serie A this season. Only Corre Gunter of Verona has more with 129. He's got Kim Min-J on 120 and Roger Ibanez and Wallace have got 113 each. So he's second in the whole of Serie A and his numbers are
01:29:58
Speaker
his numbers in general are just among all the key attributes for defenders in Serie A. He's right up there. So definitely that's why the big clubs are looking at him. And you look at Milan, they need to find a replacement for Simon Pierre. He's getting old now and I think his body's starting to decline a little bit. He's losing his pace.
01:30:21
Speaker
And then Juventus as well, Bonucci is getting old, and they
B Teams in Italian Football
01:30:28
Speaker
need to find someone certainly at this, well, I was even saying January potentially. So Napoli as well, I've been linked to him. And I think, as you said earlier, I think Napoli needs someone as well. They've got two great first choice centre backs, but their backups are
01:30:47
Speaker
Juan Jesus who you know, they'll probably look to replace the end of the season and then Okay, Ostergaard. He's young he could develop but they definitely need one so I can see why they want him and I think he's somebody that Lewandowski is a big fan of Lewandowski spoken about him that how much he how much he likes him and And yeah, he prospects your player to be a first-choice player for Poland in the World Cup Pretty impressive that shows you definitely shows you his qualities. I
01:31:13
Speaker
No, he really does. And I think he's been really good as well in the World Cup for Poland. And I know that Spurs are looking at him as well. No, this is a really exciting player.
01:31:27
Speaker
Okay, just before we get to the finish with Badger and Primface of the Week. So our friends at Semple Inter, sorry Semple Milan, correction, I should say, Ollie Fisher and the lads. Now, they did a little segment on their podcast recently, last week or the week before.
01:31:45
Speaker
Do check them out, SemperMelan.com, really great website who produce lots of great news and features and they do a weekly podcast on everything to do with AC Milan. They did a segment on this topic I'm about to introduce now whereby
01:32:05
Speaker
Juventus are the one Italian team that have a second team. They play in the Serie G and I think they started in 2018-19 season and it's starting to reap some rewards for Juventus now. They're starting to produce some good talented young players having not done so for a long time. We're seeing the likes of Miretti and Fagioli and Soule and Illing Jr.
01:32:33
Speaker
And David's going off on loan and we're starting to see some players that are coming through and are playing for the senior team and playing for other Serie A teams and we didn't see that for a long time. So now, and there was actually a conference in Turin at the weekend, which was around the theme of this Juventus B team.
01:32:53
Speaker
and this was discussed about other Serie A teams launching second teams in Italian football. Masada was there from Milan and also the Liga president, I believe. Other teams are starting to look at this now. Milan are one. I know from speaking to other people that Milan have been looking at this for a while.
01:33:23
Speaker
So, you know, do you think that this is a good idea? Do you think this is something that other Italian teams should do? And is it a way that maybe Italian football can catch up, like, say, with the likes of Spain and others that, you know, have been ahead in recent years on youth development? Do you think this is a way that this is good for Italian football if other teams do this?
01:33:42
Speaker
I think both yes and no. I look at it like this. I'm worried about the smaller clubs at the lower leagues at the grassroots level because I think there is a real value that they produce locally.
01:34:01
Speaker
And in their communities and of course if the bigger clubs are to start these like B and C teams like Real Madrid and Barcelona have done for years and decades B and C teams in lower leagues they They will you know that that could hurt them because obviously they will be marginalized even further sporting wise and
01:34:23
Speaker
So yes and no. But on the other hand, I think it's good for players that are of that high quality, that these big teams buy them, that these big teams keep them in their organization and they get to train at that training ground with those players in that environment.
01:34:43
Speaker
and the big clubs can keep an eye on them, and also to play first-team football, obviously at a lower level, but it's still good to have them playing first-team football. So I'm kind of seeing this both sides. I can see upsides and downsides with both of it, but I would like to find a way
01:35:06
Speaker
where it doesn't hurt them too much, the smaller clubs. I know, for example, in Sweden what they've done a way to do to get away from that is that they've got
01:35:20
Speaker
the bigger clubs in the top tier, they have, they kind of write these cooperation agreements with these lower league clubs, lower tier clubs where they basically have revolving doors between them where all the players that they can't, the young players that can't make it into the first teams in the big clubs, they get sent automatically on loan to the smaller clubs and they kind of have that kind of, that cooperation.
01:35:45
Speaker
But, I mean, I don't know, I think there's both positives and negatives with this. Yeah, I think it depends who you're looking for. For the bigger teams, I mean, for Juventus, we are starting to see the fruits of the Leibnal. I mean, the argument against it for Juventus is that, I mean, the team hasn't actually done very well. Still, in Serie G, they've been kind of like mid-table for a lot of that time. And, you know, they haven't really done very well. But, you know, we are starting to see
01:36:12
Speaker
some young players being produced. Whether that's a coincidence or not, I think it's difficult to argue how can it be a coincidence if they haven't been producing anyone for a long time. Now they're actually starting to produce players. I think it must be working for Juventus in terms of production.
01:36:34
Speaker
It would be better if the Juventus second team were in Serie B because the quality is higher. The quality in Serie C isn't good. It's very, very bad quality, if I'm being totally honest. If I compare it to, say, England, if I compare it to, like, Ligue 1 compared to Serie C, I mean, there's a huge difference in quality. Same with the championship to Serie B. I mean, it's absolutely massive, the golf class difference. But, you know, Serie B is more towards the level that we want.
01:37:03
Speaker
the second teams and these young players to be playing. But nevertheless, Sadia Chi is still a higher level than the Primavera because you know anybody that's played youth football at any level and has suddenly jumped up from playing the teenage football under 18 to under 16 or under 15, under 14, anyone that's played that level of football and then is suddenly a year or two years later suddenly had to jump up at the age of 16 or 18 and play men's football, they will know that the jump is huge. You're playing against people who are
01:37:33
Speaker
you know much more physically developed your still developing physically seven grown out into your body you don't have the experience you don't have the mental strength you don't know all those things don't have the experience is obviously massive and you know so so you know it is it is a
01:37:50
Speaker
you're playing at a higher level and you're growing up faster as well but you're not playing at a level that's too high for you. So I think in a way it is good but it has to be there has to be synergy there and one of my biggest criticisms of Italian football and this is one thing that for certain that Spain does brilliantly and Germany has done very well is that you know they try and get
01:38:16
Speaker
the teams to all play in the same kind of way. They try and have an identity that they stick to. So if you're going to have a first team, and then you're going to have a second team, try and get them playing in the same formations, the same style of play, you know, don't have the first team playing in a four, a four, three, three fluent attacking possession based high pressing game, and then get the second team that's playing in city achieve playing in a
01:38:40
Speaker
in a 3-5-2 catenacho style of game. Because then the bridge, the pathway, you can't easily fit in from one team into the next team and step up. It's a completely different style of play. So that's something that needs to be sorted out as well. But I think it's something that if the teams can handle, obviously teams like Juventus, Milan,
01:39:09
Speaker
These teams have the financial resources to be able to run a B team. I think it's a good idea. I do understand the argument that the smaller teams, why should Juventus be able to just jump up the pyramid when there's all these teams struggling lower down? Why should Juventus just get to jump straight up to the third tier or fourth tier or fifth tier even or whatever?
01:39:39
Speaker
I think that there is that issue as well. And also the fact that, you know, what will it be like, what will Serie B be like if, let's say, in five years' time, could you imagine if Juventus B, Roma B, Inter B, Lazio B, Milan B, can you imagine if Serie B, half the teams were all B teams of teams from Serie A? I mean, what would that be like for Italian football? Do you know what I mean? So there's that as well.
01:40:06
Speaker
No, absolutely. But I mean, in Spain, I think they don't they don't allow Barcelona B and Real Madrid A, B to go up to the like, they're allowed to as high up as the second division, but they're not. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, the second division, even the second division is would be ruined, wouldn't it? What I'm saying is wouldn't say I mean, what would Serie B be like if it was just half the teams with B teams of the big guns in Serie A? I mean, it would be a little bit
01:40:29
Speaker
Do you know what I mean? I don't know how that would work. You know, it wouldn't, it wouldn't be good. It wouldn't be good with it, especially if none of those teams could go up. Do you know what I mean? You get teams, you might be getting teams getting promoted from Serie B that finished 10th. I don't know. I don't know how that would work out, but I mean, in terms of youth production and everybody knows I love my international team. I want to see more young players with you. So I think it's, I think it can only be a positive.
01:40:58
Speaker
I don't see how you can get a negative out of it. Put it that way. Yeah. It doesn't work. It doesn't work, but I don't think it can produce anything negative. That's what I mean. Yeah. No, absolutely. We'll see. We'll see.
English Media Exaggerations
01:41:13
Speaker
Okay. All right. Let's finish off with bad Joe and prim face of the week. Okay. Um, bad Joe, who we got for bad Joe.
01:41:24
Speaker
I think it's, for me, it was Carlos Queiroz. I think the dignity in which he handled himself in a very ridiculous situation that he was put in for no reason was brilliant. I thought he was outstanding. It was very respectful. It was very correct. I would have probably gone... I would have been a little bit more angrier, but I think he showed that his experience that he's not going to take
01:41:53
Speaker
That nonsense. But no, for me, he was outstanding. And Mbappe as well, I think, has been very, very good this week. Spain, all of them, I mean, the entire Spain team, you can say, is a badger of the week for how they played. That's one of those for me.
01:42:13
Speaker
OK. And Prem Face of the Week. I mean, I really don't know. I mean, listen, this this pod has gone way over. And so I mean, we could we could do that. Maybe we should do that at some point. We could do a whole show on just all the Prem Face stuff in the in this world cup, because
01:42:32
Speaker
I mean, English mainstream media and promphasory during World Cups and Euros. I mean, that is when... It's overload. Yeah, it is. It's like a World Cup of... It is a World Cup of promphasory. That is what it is. The Premphas World Cup. Prem-dem-ic, you called it, which I thought was hilarious. But look, it's... I don't know what is worse, but when talks poured, I can't... It was Jason Cundee who said it.
01:43:04
Speaker
who said that Mason Mount is better than Neymar because he's a better team player
01:43:13
Speaker
I don't even think Mason Mount picks Mason Mount over Neymar. It's such a silly thing to say, and again, it's Mason Mount ending up in a situation that he did nothing to be in.
01:43:32
Speaker
because of some idiot making stupid claims. But here's the thing though, I don't think this is sincere. I think they're just doing it for the interactions. No one
Episode Conclusion & Future Topics
01:43:42
Speaker
seriously watches football, believes that Mason Mount is a better player than Neymar, and that you would pick Mason Mount over Neymar if you can pick a player in a starting 11. No one thinks that. And I think they're just doing it for the interactions.
01:43:57
Speaker
I don't think so. Honestly, I don't. Again, just through, I mean, how often do we see this stuff, Nima? We see this every single week, not just on TalkSport, we see it everywhere. You know, this is just, this is, I was going to say, this is the culture, but I don't want to get you that conclusion. You know, this stuff is rife in the mainstream English media. It is. And I don't care if I'm stereotyping. It's true. You know, we see this stuff. You see the examples. It's facts. You see it all the time.
01:44:24
Speaker
just ridiculous comments you know and maybe yes maybe they absolutely know that the people that that push this stuff out on social media and clip it up they know that this is going to create more interaction so out of the show they pick these things that rather than pick other stuff absolutely but they definitely don't deliberately say it for an actor they generally believe this stuff and that's what makes it just so ridiculous and it wasn't the only thing they said
01:44:49
Speaker
They didn't just say Mount was better than Neymar. They said one Brazil team would get an England team about 10 minutes later. Only one Brazil player would get an England team. It's insane. It's genuinely insane, but I can't imagine that anyone thinks that. I really can't think that. It comes across so disingenuous because of the old theatrics surrounding it. I can't take it seriously. I don't think it is serious.
01:45:16
Speaker
Um, so yeah, no, I think it's, I think many, many times they do believe stuff, some of the stuff they say, but this Neymar mount Mason Mount thing, it just comes off to me as really bad acting. Honestly.
01:45:32
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I don't know, because I know Jason Conde and this other guy, some of the stuff they come up with. They believe this stuff. They really do believe this stuff. Oh, dear.
01:45:51
Speaker
Okay, right. Let's leave it at that. Let's leave it at that We will be back on Tuesday for the Q&A and then Thursday where we will do a review of the midweek Well, all the rest of this World Cup action and we'll do some more. We've got some more World Cup nostalgia Topics as well, which I'm sure you'll love and we've got some some club related stuff as well which I've had to hold from today because we
01:46:16
Speaker
went over so long. Way over. This is the longest episode we've ever done, I can say. I know. What is going on? What is going on? Yeah. Okay. Right. Let's leave it at that. Until next time. Ciao. Ciao.