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133 - From Magic Tricks to Workspace Strategy: Jianhan's Journey
23 Plays1 year ago
Qiu Jianhan is the principal of strategy at Unispace Asia, where he leads the strategy and change management practice. He has developed innovative strategy and change management solutions that have helped many organisations align their work environment with their goals. As a certified LUMA practitioner, Jianhan always embeds human-certified design thinking into his solutions, which has contributed to his success as a seasoned workplace strategist.
In this episode, Jianhan shares his intriguing journey from learning magic card tricks to his professional career in finance and workspace strategy. He discusses the importance of engaging employees in workspace design to boost productivity and satisfaction. Jianhan also provides insights into the impact of flexible workplace arrangements in Singapore and tips for companies seeking new office spaces. The conversation reveals how innovative workspace design can significantly influence employee well-being and organizational success.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:20 Discovering Magic Tricks
01:12 From Finance to Workspace Strategy
02:38 Common Workspace Design Mistakes
04:06 Engaging Employees in Workspace Design
07:24 Impact of Flexible Work Arrangements
11:22 Designing for Low Occupancy
15:46 Balancing Work, Life, and Play in the Office
18:06 Tips for Choosing a New Workspace
24:07 Final Thoughts and Conclusion
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Transcript
Zhen Han: Card Tricks and Career
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello Zhen Han, thank you for coming on to the show. I read that you have a unique talent with cut tricks. Can you tell us about your interest in that and how it actually intersects with your professional life in any way? As I'm more along Covent got Han Lin more. Then we, me and my group of friends for five months, we would tend to walk past to go to this food shop. And and if we do this food shop, there's this magic card store on the top floor. Then we walk past him and say, okay, what do they do? Then we walk past this guy inside and say, hey, do you want to see some magic tricks? Being students, we are like, okay, something so different. Then we say, if you want to learn, then you start to tell us, yeah, you can learn, but it's for free. All of us started to pull our pocket money together for one person to go in, to go and learn. And then it's quite private, so that this curtain, when he does the trick, he teaches you, you need to go behind his curtain to learn.
00:00:59
Speaker
I think I try to apply what I do or magic in what I do for workspaces. ah To some extent, it's always nice to come to but an office and feel like, wow, this space is something different.
From Finance to Design: Zhen's Career Shift
00:01:12
Speaker
mean You started in finance professionally before transition to what you're currently doing, workspace strategy. What inspired this shift? Do you think your background in finance actually influenced the way you approach workplace design? I started my career in Omino at the Big Four, PwC Deloitte, and everyone else in Deloitte. When I was doing M and&E, we come across analyzing different companies on their profitability. Then we realized that he realized it is a large part.
00:01:43
Speaker
And one of the projects that I did was analysis of this FMD company at this retail stores. So what we have done was a same stock analysis, right meaning that I want to compare an FMD outlet in, for example, Heartland versus an FMD, a similar FMD outlet in a CBD. and What we realized from this analysis is that although certain stores, they might be located at a central location, highest would fall, but it's still not performing maybe as well as a store located in a less durable location. and So only then when we he headed down to visit the different stores, we realized that the actual design plays a large part. So again, it's
00:02:26
Speaker
Within this, that I realised that there are so many chapters that cannot really be quantified on the board. We can't really measure this, but it's so impactful on profitability on this particular store.
Common Workspace Design Mistakes
00:02:39
Speaker
What are some of your, I would say professional pet peevel, basically workspace design mistakes that you keep seeing people repeating over and over and over again, in which are, in fact, if they know a a little bit more, a simple fix that they could actually work on. For me, it's how they start.
00:02:58
Speaker
So there are many different stages of the property life cycle. Let's say we are analyzing which property we should go in, and what kind of offices are we looking at, and then do the design. So I think most companies that we go for is they really made the decision to either locate to this particular building without consulting their employees first. So then we are when they engage us or when we approach them, it's a bit of a constraint. For example, if your account 500 people, um but you are going into an office space for only 300 people, and then you are kind of forced to meet your work. So I need to employ a high degree of best sharing. So what made people come as best king?
00:03:42
Speaker
without even consulting staff. So I think it can be the same journey. so For example, company A decides to go into an office space for 300 people, right? Coming from an office of 500 people, compared to company B doing the same thing. But and you do stuff buts I So they engage their staff, they find out, okay, we are going ahead with this because of these reasons. So I so i feel that many, I would say many organisations still do engage their employees at the start. ah Leading to late catch up was the end. and Explaining why I did this, rather than going back to say, we are doing this because of what you said. Wouldn't planning by consensus slow down the entire process? And how practical is it to cater to the whims and fancies of every single employee?
Balancing Staff Engagement in Design
00:04:32
Speaker
Because everyone will want things that work for them. And what if that actually creates some kind of internal conflict that may overlap and contradict?
00:04:40
Speaker
In most cases, we want to engage staff, but again, we do not want to over-engage to the point that there are so many conflicting opinions. Even without going to all staff, going at a leadership level, even with review management, there might be different consensus to what might work and what will not work. So what we try to do is to really tease out the functional requirements ah Because design and how we feel can be very subjective based on our experience. As much as possible, we try to contextualize it to functional requirements, such as the things that I do on a daily basis, what's required for me to be productive at my work. And also from a measurement point of view, how how do we see collaboration going forward? And do we really need that much collaboration for business?
00:05:28
Speaker
or do we want to use the the change in workplace to set a new culture for the business. Lisa, some of the key questions that we need to consider, right rather than looking at the new thing where we see articles or a new office for someone else, that might work for other companies, but it might not work for
Impact of Design on Wellbeing and Privacy
00:05:49
Speaker
our kids. Are there any aspects where a lousy or poorly designed workspace may hinder work in itself as well as well being? Maybe we really sign what's a poly design workspace. I design it as a place where I can perform my best work. So yes, I'm in a sunshine, for example, HR. And for me, I might not have my confidential private needs catered for when I'm sitting out in the open.
00:06:16
Speaker
where the office can be very nice. It can be the best office with everything that I want. But if it shows to solve my issue of being in HR, needing confidentiality, needing the privacy, yeah people can see my screen, I'm doing payroll. then It impacts my behaviour with the office. I will see myself going to work from home a lot more. Even if we see that everyone is very satisfied in the office, but for me, in my case, it doesn't cater to my job requirement, my role. So that impacts me to work from home a lot more. I might just stop emitting room for for the entire day right because I need that privacy. I'm speaking with actual candidates.
00:06:59
Speaker
so I guess it's really subjective. So again, back to the point of why we always need to engage our employees before we design our workspace rather than another way around. I think most companies do it another way around where we design our workspace. Let me say, hey, this these are meeting rooms that you can use for. We have X number of meeting rooms at different times. We newer workstations. We have a barista. We have a cafe. So feel free to use them.
Flexible Work and Real Estate in Singapore
00:07:24
Speaker
ah In Singapore, there's announcement about this flexible workplace arrangement thing. and how How do you see this impacting businesses, as employees, and of course, workspace specifically? Because that would also bring about a very different approach.
00:07:39
Speaker
to how companies would utilize the space, especially in a very expensive real estate market like Singapore. The rollout is very in line with where we are trying to hit the work. I saw that there are three main categories. First is flat C location, which I feel that many companies are already doing that. We are working from home, working from our offices, working from flat spaces. So I think most companies have no trouble adopting that or are already adopting that when we're not done. I think the two other factors are a bit more different, right? So one is flexi time arrangement. So flexi time can be ah time we reach button i i mean mean dagger hours, it can also mean the hot topic of a four-day work week, compressed hours. So I think that is quite new to most of us and we are still trying to figure out as
00:08:29
Speaker
As employees and employers, what's the best approach? Because from an employer standpoint, I wouldn't want my productivity or operations to be compromised. At the same time, I would try to cater to what my employees want. Then the third point is also on the Flexi load arrangement. So that refers to a bit more of HR, job sharing, right What's the nature of the jobs work that can be combined and rolled up into one role but shared among multiple people, um for example? So all these factors, I i would think, would define how how we approach our work speed. and So for example, if we are doing a flat sleep time arrangement where we are working four to four and a half days a week, if from a real estate standpoint, if my office is going to be occupied only four days a week, so what do I do with additional one day of the week?
00:09:22
Speaker
not being utilized and should I balance it out so that I maintain occupancy levels throughout the week. I do staggered arrangement for my team or do I even explore the possibility of even renting on my office on on the other one day in a very extreme example. i so And this just for applying to a smaller set up, imagine if a large company with an outside of an employee are doing this on a large level. A ah four-day work week might mean that office utilize that maxim eighty but percent i tro the the week, meaning that this is not directly translating to a lower footprint right directly reducing to any but pen and But it might really change how
00:10:03
Speaker
We really operate our work space and change how we design our work space.
Designing for Low Occupancy Days
00:10:11
Speaker
So in in current context, when it comes to workspace design, are there any unique elements, especially given, I guess, our climate, our geography, and also our climate, law given how hot things are recently, that you believe companies should really start paying more attention to? Singapore is a bit unique comparing to other regions. I think for us, the commute time isn't as bad. right So when we try to mandate returns to the office, for example, ah we see that in Singapore, the take-out rate is much higher compared to regions like Malaysia, Indonesia, where not much can spend one to two hours in traffic and it's very normal. ah For us, Singapore, an hour to 45 minutes feels quite a bit normal. I ah already complain.
00:11:00
Speaker
yeah Many of us are really complaining. So I think attracting people back isn't a key issue. right It's rather what we put within the office to future crew. So I think that there are different ways that we try to help our clients. Accomplish the future crew to the office by first of all designing the workspace in terms of the layout. So what we find that it's an issue, it's more of a behavioral issue that impacts the return to work is, if I come into office, imagine me coming in on a Monday or Friday where it tends to be slightly lower, and then there was someone thinking that it wasn't like coming back when there's no one back.
00:11:39
Speaker
ah So for example, if I see a hitcarn of 100 people in the office, ah usually on Mondays we 20, maybe 30 people. But imagine you're stepping in here, only 5 people spread across different clusters. I think if you're like, why am I coming back? Because most of us, when we come back, we come back on meetings, we come back to be direct, rather than sitting down at our desk to go on your diary. So that will set me to the behaviour of always, if Mondays are always like that, I will not come back on a Monday. So there are times where we see that Mondays have what we call a best priority. Only 5 to 10% of them. Then you start to pick out during Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Then towards Friday, again it's the team event. So we try to achieve the
00:12:25
Speaker
I would say a sense of buzz in the office without being too empty by trying to design pockets of different spaces. Meaning that instead of stepping into the office, you see a Seattle workstation, we deliberately, either we build up rooms in a center or we locate some of the discussion. So that it feels a bit miss, like I mean, so once you step in, there's a small cluster of people there. There's another student cluster behind. and So it doesn't shield who i was it to You can still feel a sense of buzz even though there are low occupancy days. And by doing this, you actually locate those meeting areas closer to the workstation area.
00:13:08
Speaker
ah so it gold So this is quite comfortable. So it goes against some design principles where in terms of design, we try to locate all our meeting areas, all the build up areas, go to the core area. i So you imagine a rectangular layout, your lift lobby is on the right side. Usually you want to introduce a lot of natural light into the workspace. You locate all your workstation at the window area. um but By doing this, you are instead locating maybe meeting areas around the windows, which breaks up the natural light. But by doing this, youre you give small bars to the office, right? If you're more hidden and you step deeper, there's another quiet space where you step a little bit further, you can be a quiet part, for example. So I think design is one way we try to challenge the issue or tackle the issue of low occupancy. Second is, I think, quite common. All of us say food brings us together.
00:14:02
Speaker
ah So many companies, they try to do drinks on Fridays and breakfast on Mondays. Just try to bring people back. um It doesn't have to be a very expensive affair. It can also be a simple food basket on certain days. Just to attract people back. When I come in, it's a subtle form of positive reinforcement. I come in on Monday. Yeah, I see there's a banana or yogurt there. Then Monday still is quite fun. in is I like the fact that it is the the workspace is done deliberately so that the the sense of emptiness is not so prevalent. I guess that is where your magic tricks background comes into play. Trying to create a veil of illusion. I personally have been on the receiving end of going to office and seeing all the emptiness on a Monday, which made me second guess, did I come in on a public holiday?
Are Workplace Perks Effective?
00:14:48
Speaker
But it's not, people are just not coming in on a Monday, which I guess is quite common.
00:14:53
Speaker
And of course, to that notion, there are also many workspaces that try to do, I would say maybe a few years ago, that would probably be the right kind of things that people are expecting, you know, the full-sport labour, the ping pong favour, this and that. I remember many, many years ago, I saw articles in the Straits Times, they were profiling a call centre, Singtel call centre. And the interesting feature piece about this is they actually have a carousel in the middle of a call center. And I showed it to my friend. My friend was working in Star Harbor, telling me, hey, you see, see you you should you should consider joining them. There's a carousel there. But he also pointed out something which I found quite enlightening. He was telling me, you think people are there to use me?
00:15:38
Speaker
You literally put yourself in a spotlight if you're seen sitting on the carousel. But I'm digressing here. What are your personal thoughts on this when a workspace tried to encompass too much? We talked about work-life play, which I think was one of the slogan for Buonavista won off when it first started. Do you think these spaces truly enhance employee well-being? I think there's too much motivation of a workplace. Like you mentioned, work live and play. I would say it's almost impossible to achieve that because for for us at work, right we are always at a mindset of, we really need to rush the line, ah we are here to get things done. Whereas the flip side is introducing a list of the environment where you introduce flipping pots for some, and you you introduce massage chairs. Even though it's there,
00:16:31
Speaker
and Like you said, it's really ah a wide lesson, right? No one really dares to to use it in in the workspace. It feels very weird to have my manager working so hard and watching more records than there in her massage chair or the bedroom rather than in my decompress time. I think it's also a mindset change that's required, not saying that it's possible, but about the culture that enables that. So large companies like Google, other tech companies, Meta, they all have these facilities in-house. Of course, they do have that skill. If the company has that skill and volume to develop a campus, and then I would say, yes, it's possible because you you are more than enough. You provide general, provide food.
00:17:17
Speaker
And I always embrace the office to do a different mindset where I socialise and interact. But it's not just a place for work. That's what you mentioned. Forgive me. But in general, although we where do engage users out front, we do a boating exercise where they get to choose what kind of stepping they like. There's also this wildcard idea where they can introduce sleeping pods, snapping pods, massage chair. Often, you you'll be surprised that all these are highly voted by employees.
00:17:48
Speaker
Then I'll ask them saying that, okay, imagine now we have this in our office over there, we can buy like this. Would you use it NSAO? Maybe not actually. It's good to have, but it's good that we really like it to be in our office, but most of the time it's not really being used a lot. For companies right now who may be on the lookout for new workspace, are there any top of mind tips or advice that you'd like to give to them when they go about shopping for a new workspace?
Choosing New Office Spaces
00:18:22
Speaker
What are some of the... I know it's very hard to quantify because different companies may have different requirements, whether they are trying to look at a research facility versus an office. Let's just start with an office, like a typical corporate service environment.
00:18:35
Speaker
What are some of the key principles that you believe would apply across to most people looking around for a new office facility? ah they ah key t is efficiency right so and as you are looking off on aussy you want and find the best thank for but they you can get hey Location aside, our price aside, we see that most tenants, they are going for quality kit up, quality buildings. The reason why they go for quality buildings is you, although you are paying slightly earn more for rent, and for higher-grade buildings,
00:19:09
Speaker
you have a more efficient space, meaning that typically all these buildings are what we call a great ability. They tend to come with lots of tenant facility. So for example, there might be an option facility downstairs where your employees can cycle to work, they can park their bike and shower first building. Second is also, there are usually co-working operators within your building, meaning that if you have a huge inspection in headcount and you've signed a lease for three years and you can still rent out additional space from the co-working outbreak desk and so that gives you an element of hiding a bit of flexibility when you future-proof your headcount. And another part is also these buildings tend to come with large reading room spaces located on the building now.
00:19:54
Speaker
So as a tenant, I don't have to build because if I think about 50-pack meeting room for a town hall setting or 100-pack meeting room, these are maybe used three or four times a year for your quarterly town hall or your overhangs meeting. So instead of building in-house, which is very expensive to build, expensive to maintain and to pay for such a large footprint, these are located within that building. So building selection is where you receive that as a general trend towards quality feedback spaces. I think second is, it's also hand in hand with this higher quality building that I read. We see that these quality buildings have a higher, what we call larger floor plates. Meaning that we have instead of locating across multiple floors in a building, for example, now I'm taking up five floors of 10,000 each, 50,000 in total.
00:20:47
Speaker
Locating to a new footprint, maybe I just take up two floors. Although those two floors can be only $20,000 each, my net reduction in space might be from $50,000 to $40,000. But if we look at efficiency, I can still build this the same amount of meeting spaces, amount of desks in the smaller setup. and Because I don't have to replicate, for example, your facility room, your store room, your pantries across five floors. Maybe I just have one or two across these two floors. So this allows some savings in terms of space.
00:21:21
Speaker
and series and And then I think last tip would be creating modular space settings. So what I mean by that is to develop spaces that can be modular. So for example, if I develop an office, this office is the same size, ah same footprint as a poor person reading room. And this footprint can also be the same size as an open collaboration space. right Or if I want to break it down, this similar footprint can be located for two focus rooms. So by using this modular approach to space planning, in case of I need more meeting rooms in the future, I can just change the inside the office, rather than tearing down walls, directing new walls, and doing new things inside. So these are, I would say, the tricky tips when we look out for space and we try to make it more flexible, more future-proof.
00:22:18
Speaker
But that also sounds to me like the older building will always be at a disadvantage, right?
Old vs New: Office Space Efficiency
00:22:23
Speaker
Because of how they were being constructed decades ago. Some of the buildings come to mind, you know, I guess, Shenzhen House with a very, very different kind of look and feel compared to, say, Capital Green, I think, or Capital Spring, if I remember the name. So does it mean that those are the kind of buildings everyone, or rather maybe I should put it more positively, under what circumstance would a company that want to look at the kind of buildings that may not fit into the criteria that you just should mention.
00:22:57
Speaker
i I would say cost is usually the biggest driver. So usually the buildings tend to be more competitive, frameers of course. Although their location tend to be much more central than the newer buildings you mentioned. and So some of these buildings are located just beside the MRT station. However, it's not so efficient. i b So again, if money is not an issue, right we would see that most tenants tend to go towards a new world building, especially in the financial and legal sector, where prestige of being in a new building is a big driver, a cost client.
00:23:38
Speaker
The older buildings would attract different forms of tenants. For example, the tenant type that we see for older buildings might be family offices that need a local presence, but might not need such a front-of-house setup to host clients. For example, we also see HR companies located in the residential location, but maybe there's no need to be located in the top-class building. and so to speak. So again, it's really different inviting core system in consideration. Thank you so much for coming onto the show to share with us your thoughts about workspace design. Any final thoughts that you'd like to share with our listeners as well as viewers?
Changing Dynamics in Workplace Design
00:24:16
Speaker
The best time is is now i to really redesign the the workspace and we see an empowered, I so to call, from employers to employees.
00:24:27
Speaker
and Because now as a potential employee, as a single employee, it's very easy for me to compare across different sectors of saying that e, my this competitor is actually offering so much better perks, and the culture is so much better, so what? What will a company and what will public create to ensure that I'm sticky as an employee? So I think now is where employers are starting to listen to employees in terms of 41, how we can enable employees to be most productive at work.
00:25:04
Speaker
And this is very different from the past, maybe maybe not even 50 years ago, like 10 to 20 years ago. It's very different, right? It's like the mindset is you're employed, come in to do the work, right? Do your work in then and then go. Whereas now it's, i I can see that a shift in perspective is that from the employees is I want to create a ah web product, this environment for you, right? To grow here, right? And it's so same across the board. So I think I think it's good that many large companies are really taking a step to introduce flexibility. hi And now the SMEs, smaller factors are also taking this out. Plus, at the end of the year, come December, there will be the launch of flexible work arrangements, where it's mandatory to have a process at least.
00:25:48
Speaker
and So it's it's great to see this happening in in Singapore. Workspace design could potentially, in fact, definitely could be one of the key differentiation factor for companies as well. Over and above, of course, salary benefits is how you can really bring, attract, and also retain your
Connect with Zhen Han
00:26:04
Speaker
employees. For people who may be keen to learn more about yourself as well as what you do, where can they go to? I can head to the units space, search any of us. I can head to my LinkedIn profile. right just below. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming on to the show. Thanks Adrian.