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78 Mattie Whitehead | Editor
415 Plays3 years ago
Senior editor, Mattie Whitehead is in this week to tell us all about her work over at Little Tiger. We go into what the role of an editor entails, all of the steps involved from commissioning through to publication and how it can be a daunting thing to send edits to authors.
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsor
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi guys, quick one before we get into the episode.
00:00:02
Speaker
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00:00:06
Speaker
And if you're interested in starting your own podcast, hang around at the end of the episode for our 30% discount referral code.
00:00:12
Speaker
Thanks.
Podcast and Writing Overview
00:00:13
Speaker
So our podcast is called Right and Wrong.
00:00:14
Speaker
Are these your notes?
00:00:16
Speaker
Are these your notes about what we're going to say?
00:00:19
Speaker
Anything.
00:00:19
Speaker
It's a short answer.
00:00:21
Speaker
So how many novels did you not finish?
00:00:24
Speaker
Oh my God, so many.
00:00:26
Speaker
It was perfect.
00:00:27
Speaker
What's she talking about?
00:00:28
Speaker
This is not a good one.
00:00:30
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question.
00:00:32
Speaker
I love it.
00:00:33
Speaker
This is it, guys.
00:00:34
Speaker
The big secret to getting published is you have to write a good book.
00:00:38
Speaker
You heard it here first.
00:00:42
Speaker
Hello
Meet Matilda Whitehead (Matty)
00:00:43
Speaker
and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast.
00:00:45
Speaker
As always, I'm Jamie and joining me today is the senior editor at Little Tiger Stripes Publishing, Matilda Whitehead.
00:00:54
Speaker
Hello, Matilda.
00:00:55
Speaker
Matilda Whitehead.
00:00:57
Speaker
Call me Matty.
00:00:58
Speaker
Everyone does.
00:00:59
Speaker
Matty it is.
00:01:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:00
Speaker
Great.
00:01:00
Speaker
Hi.
00:01:00
Speaker
Thanks for having me.
00:01:01
Speaker
How's it going, Matty?
00:01:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:03
Speaker
Surviving the heat?
00:01:05
Speaker
Just about.
00:01:05
Speaker
Just about.
00:01:06
Speaker
But yeah, wanting to just be sitting outside with a book reading.
00:01:10
Speaker
That'll be nice.
00:01:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:12
Speaker
I mean, fortunately, that is part of my job.
00:01:14
Speaker
So I need to start incorporating that more.
00:01:19
Speaker
Yeah, you
Career Journey & Passion for Children's Books
00:01:20
Speaker
should.
00:01:20
Speaker
Well, let's kick off with your job, your editorial escapades.
00:01:26
Speaker
You started out at Simon & Schuster for a couple of years and then moved to Stripes.
00:01:34
Speaker
Is that right?
00:01:35
Speaker
So I started at Simon & Schuster.
00:01:37
Speaker
I was interning in the adult nonfiction team.
00:01:41
Speaker
And then the job came up in the children's department.
00:01:43
Speaker
So I applied for that and was editorial assistant there for about two and a half years and then moved to Stripes as junior editor.
00:01:50
Speaker
And I'm now senior editor there.
00:01:52
Speaker
And it's been about four years.
00:01:56
Speaker
So did you always want to work in children's when you saw the opportunity you went for it?
00:02:03
Speaker
Yeah, I think when I first started out, I didn't quite know where I wanted to be.
00:02:08
Speaker
But my first experience of publishing was at Random House Children's Books in the editorial department.
00:02:14
Speaker
And I completely loved it.
00:02:15
Speaker
And I think that was my first taste of editorial, of publishing.
00:02:20
Speaker
And it was a very cool one.
00:02:22
Speaker
And then after that, I did sort of anything I could to be working with books.
00:02:27
Speaker
So I was in a bookshop for a bit.
00:02:29
Speaker
And I did internships at a legal publication, a legal publisher and a travel guide publisher.
00:02:37
Speaker
So they're all very different.
00:02:38
Speaker
But it was kind of cool because it really confirmed that editing was what I wanted to do.
00:02:43
Speaker
Even with the legal publications, which I didn't understand at all, I still really enjoyed the process.
00:02:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:51
Speaker
And so then it all then.
00:02:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:52
Speaker
Then I was in the nonfiction team and I was enjoying that little bit of adult fiction, but mainly on the nonfiction team.
00:02:58
Speaker
But it seemed kind of like fate when the job in children's came up.
00:03:02
Speaker
That was where I started.
00:03:04
Speaker
And now I can't imagine working on any other books.
00:03:08
Speaker
Oh, that's nice.
Stripes and Little Tiger Relationship
00:03:09
Speaker
So you, and we talked about this before we started recording, but you work at Stripes, but Stripes is sort of, it's part of Little Tiger, but Little Tiger is sort of bringing everything under one umbrella.
00:03:25
Speaker
Is that right?
00:03:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:27
Speaker
So Stripes is the fiction list at Little Tiger, the Little Tiger group.
00:03:30
Speaker
And now, so we're sort of the Little Tiger fiction list, but known as Stripes and still refer to ourselves as Stripes.
00:03:37
Speaker
And just to make it really straightforward.
00:03:41
Speaker
But we, yeah, we published books for children aged five up to YA.
00:03:46
Speaker
So sort of from chapter books onwards, which is very cool.
00:03:49
Speaker
So Simon & Schuster, I was working a
Challenges and Joys of Editing Picture Books
00:03:51
Speaker
bit on the pitch book list as well, which was really, really fun.
00:03:54
Speaker
um and definitely learned some things there which have been really useful um now just working on fiction as an editor that must there must be a huge difference between working on a picture book versus prose definitely yeah trying to get i mean trying to get so much into those 32 pages in a picture book is um is a
00:04:16
Speaker
It's a sort of challenge, but a very satisfying one.
00:04:19
Speaker
And I'm in awe of all the Pitchback editors.
00:04:20
Speaker
The way they managed to, I remember reading, so when I was there, also I'm going to show you to publish Granddad's Island, which is Benji Davies, one of his books.
00:04:30
Speaker
And it is just completely brilliant.
00:04:31
Speaker
And I remember reading it and just absolutely sobbing and then showing it to my mum and she was sobbing.
00:04:36
Speaker
And then to my sister, who was like, oh, that's nice.
00:04:38
Speaker
Granddad goes on holiday.
00:04:40
Speaker
And it's just the way that a picture book can do so much with so few words and those gorgeous pieces of artwork and how it all works together is very special.
00:04:50
Speaker
Yes.
00:04:50
Speaker
And I guess you mentioned the artwork as an editor, you're working with two people, the author and the illustrator a lot of the time.
00:05:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:02
Speaker
It's such a cool thing about this job is that you get to meet so many amazing, talented people and
00:05:08
Speaker
and see what everyone brings to it in such a different way.
00:05:11
Speaker
I love that when you find, you know, you have the text and you find that perfect illustrator.
00:05:18
Speaker
And yeah, it's really fun being able to, so we work really closely at Stripes with the designers.
00:05:22
Speaker
It's very collaborative from the beginning.
00:05:25
Speaker
So we will work together to find the perfect illustrator.
Special Project: Seven Sisters
00:05:28
Speaker
When the designer has done the brief, we'll, you know, we'll go through it and pick out anything that we think we'd like to see in there that they might've missed or,
00:05:36
Speaker
if there's any other details we could add.
00:05:38
Speaker
And then we get to see the roughs and then the finals and we get to feedback on everything.
00:05:42
Speaker
So yeah, it's really cool.
00:05:45
Speaker
It's a fun side of the job.
00:05:47
Speaker
Yeah, it must be so nice seeing those projects grow from such a sort of fledgling stage up to the final forms.
00:05:54
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
00:05:56
Speaker
And seeing the author's words come to life through the artwork.
00:06:00
Speaker
And then, yeah, I love being able to share it, share the artwork with the authors and seeing their reaction to it.
00:06:07
Speaker
One of my favorite, well, all my books are my favorite, but one really special one I worked on was called Seven Sisters, which Aisha Malik wrote and then Erika Meza illustrated.
00:06:18
Speaker
And what was so beautiful about that book is that Aisha based all the characters on kids in her own life.
00:06:25
Speaker
And she sent photos and descriptions.
00:06:28
Speaker
I think one of my favorite descriptions was one of the kids was based on a baby that was like a month old.
00:06:34
Speaker
So she was like, it's very long and thin, but so cute.
00:06:39
Speaker
And then Erica
Role of a Senior Editor
00:06:40
Speaker
illustrated them.
00:06:41
Speaker
So these kids...
00:06:44
Speaker
kids um which is amazing and actually some of the parents asked erica if she would sort of do them special prints of them um i think you know when you talk about representation and seeing yourself in a book it doesn't get more more literal than that and that was a really special project yeah
00:07:01
Speaker
And it's great to hear you, the excitement in your voice, just reminiscing about an old project.
00:07:07
Speaker
That's so nice to hear.
00:07:09
Speaker
And so talking about your role, senior editor, I think it's one of those roles that it's very easy from the outside to sort of look at that and just laser focus on
00:07:19
Speaker
all you do is edit books, but there's a much larger sort of breadth to that role.
00:07:26
Speaker
What are your other duties outside of the actual sort of literal editorial part?
00:07:34
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:07:35
Speaker
One of the things I love about the job is the variety.
00:07:38
Speaker
Before we get to the editing, we have to find the books.
00:07:40
Speaker
So lots of reading submissions, which...
00:07:45
Speaker
It's fun.
00:07:45
Speaker
It's also one of those jobs that I think every editor will agree is quite hard to fit into the working day.
00:07:51
Speaker
But luckily, most things we get are really, really good because obviously they've been through agents first.
00:07:57
Speaker
So lots of reading.
00:07:59
Speaker
And then there's also the contract side.
00:08:00
Speaker
Once you find a book you love and you've pitched to the agent, hopefully they've agreed.
00:08:08
Speaker
Doing the contract, that's been something that's been really interesting.
00:08:11
Speaker
Learning from
00:08:13
Speaker
learning about contracts, how it all works, the different phrasing, the different sub-write splits and all of that.
00:08:18
Speaker
I think that's a really useful skill.
00:08:21
Speaker
Well, not useful, yeah, useful skill, but also just really helpful to know as an editor to work out so you understand where the money's coming from, how it works for the author, how it's the business.
00:08:32
Speaker
So that's
Submission and Commissioning Process
00:08:34
Speaker
quite a key part.
00:08:36
Speaker
Is it you literally creating these contracts?
00:08:38
Speaker
Do you work with like a legal team to help you with that?
00:08:42
Speaker
Yeah, we have a contracts manager.
00:08:44
Speaker
I wouldn't want to be putting them together.
00:08:49
Speaker
But it's quite a fun sort of fun.
00:08:51
Speaker
It's satisfying being able to go through the sort of drafts and be able to pick out the different clauses and sort of learn about the wording and where maybe we need to look at it a bit differently.
00:09:02
Speaker
And sometimes it's quite straightforward and sometimes you end up having negotiations which go on for a long, long time.
00:09:08
Speaker
In a broad sense, what are the main things that the publisher is after in that contract?
00:09:16
Speaker
What are the main things that the agent is trying to fight for in that contract?
00:09:22
Speaker
I think the main things that we look at is, you agree the advance level when you acquire the book.
00:09:28
Speaker
It's looking at all the different royalties and the different sub-right splits.
00:09:31
Speaker
If you sell to international publishers or you sell on the rights to someone else,
00:09:37
Speaker
Obviously, it's trying to balance, make sure the author gets the royalty that they need and that they obviously deserve for the book.
00:09:46
Speaker
And let me think.
00:09:47
Speaker
So, yeah, looking at the sub-right splits and the royalties, there's often industry standards.
00:09:52
Speaker
So, it's just making sure that the deal is fair.
00:09:56
Speaker
and sort of comparing to other contracts in the list.
00:10:00
Speaker
And wording, where it's often rights are reserved to the author.
00:10:03
Speaker
So often sort of dramatization and merchandising rights, the author will retain.
00:10:08
Speaker
So it's making sure that that wording's in there and that's clear.
00:10:12
Speaker
And looking at sometimes those wording about making sure that every deal is run by the author and agent before it's approved.
00:10:19
Speaker
And...
00:10:22
Speaker
I think those are the main things.
00:10:23
Speaker
I'd say that's where we sort of generally have the back and forth.
00:10:26
Speaker
Another thing is looking at options.
00:10:28
Speaker
So if the author writes another book in the series or another book for that readership, sometimes we have an option clause in there, which means that we get a first look.
00:10:38
Speaker
But obviously some authors might not want to commit to that straightaway.
00:10:43
Speaker
So all that sort of wording, making sure that, yeah, the author's sort of covered for any eventuality.
00:10:50
Speaker
But it's all, I mean, especially with sort of lesser known or debut authors, I imagine it's all pretty industry standard, the contracts there.
00:11:01
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, generally, yeah.
00:11:03
Speaker
I mean, that's a good thing.
00:11:05
Speaker
So our contracts manager is sort of very aware of industry standard and what's changing.
00:11:09
Speaker
So we're able to keep up with what's happening now.
00:11:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:11:14
Speaker
So for debut, it's generally, and I mean, it depends on the agent as well sometimes because different agencies will have different standards that they have and you sort of get used to it.
00:11:21
Speaker
We've got a massive spreadsheet with everyone's sort of contract details.
00:11:25
Speaker
So we're able to see where we're at and what, you know, if it's a second book in a series or another book in a new contract with an existing author, sort of matching what we've done with previous ones or, you know, depending on, you know, they might want to negotiate.
00:11:43
Speaker
different terms but
Publishing International and Diverse Voices
00:11:44
Speaker
yeah lots of negotiation that's also a key part of the job okay and that's always with the agents right yeah yeah okay okay so let's move over to um picking the books you know you get the submissions uh and then it's there's this whole commissioning process are almost all of your submissions from agents yeah we only
00:12:11
Speaker
really see submissions from agents.
00:12:14
Speaker
Just because we get between five and 10 a week from agents and I don't think we could, we couldn't, we couldn't look at any more.
00:12:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:22
Speaker
A lot as it is.
00:12:24
Speaker
So mainly from agents.
00:12:25
Speaker
I, so I went to Bologna Book Fair in 2019 as part of a scouting trip that Daniel Han set up with the Arts and Council England and Book Trust.
00:12:37
Speaker
And that was amazing.
00:12:37
Speaker
It was for editors to go to sort of,
00:12:40
Speaker
meet international publishers and encourage UK editors to be looking a bit wider.
00:12:46
Speaker
And actually since then, so we acquired a finished book from that and I've been sort of keeping up regular meetings with those international publishers.
00:12:53
Speaker
And so I'd love to find something that means it's not through agents, that's through publishers.
00:13:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:00
Speaker
That's like a whole different branch of the, where that sort of publishes working with other publishers.
00:13:09
Speaker
yeah yeah because we said i mean uk publishers sell so many rights internationally yeah and yet we publish so little from other countries um so it's definitely something we've got um a danish ya coming out next year and we've got our finnish series um and yeah i yeah i'd love to i'd love to find more and i i studied spanish and latin american studies so i'd love to find something from latin america um oh yeah that's very cool
00:13:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's just because when I, you know, in my degree and I've got a family who live in Mexico or lived in Mexico, you know, we read, I loved reading international fiction, translated fiction.
00:13:49
Speaker
And I think it just brings such a different, you know, it's the whole idea of literature being a window into a completely different culture, but also the similarities, which I think is so important.
00:14:02
Speaker
and also to do with empathy which especially in children's books I think is important um yeah I would love to love to find something um but obviously that
Creative Processes and New Ideas
00:14:12
Speaker
brings in the whole then you have to get translators and it is a more complicated process but um it's one that we've done a few times now so I'm hoping we can do some more of
00:14:21
Speaker
That's cool.
00:14:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:22
Speaker
And a great way to, as you say, like get sort of diverse voices from all around the world, from all different cultures.
00:14:29
Speaker
So when it comes to the submissions, is it you that's being sent them directly from agents?
00:14:36
Speaker
Are you sort of one of the first people to read the submissions?
00:14:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:39
Speaker
So what we generally do, so there's five of us in the editorial team and submissions can come into anyone.
00:14:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:49
Speaker
And what we do is we share them around as soon as they come in.
00:14:52
Speaker
Sorry, we share them to the team or send them to the team.
00:14:55
Speaker
And then if anyone sees it and thinks, oh, this sounds like it could be for me, they'll take a look.
00:15:00
Speaker
And we have regular meetings to discuss what we've been reading.
00:15:04
Speaker
Often we'll get emails from agents sort of saying that there's been interest in something and it's starting to move.
00:15:10
Speaker
So someone will jump on that and take a look.
00:15:13
Speaker
And if there's something that I've read and loved,
00:15:16
Speaker
I'll sort of make a note to the team and ask someone else to have a look.
00:15:20
Speaker
And if we as a team feel like it's something that would work for us, we then send it to the sales and marketing and rights teams to have a look.
00:15:29
Speaker
And hopefully once we've got them on board, we take it to our publisher and our CEO and sales director and get them to hopefully sign off on it.
00:15:39
Speaker
And then we can offer.
00:15:41
Speaker
So it's very much chosen by committee.
00:15:45
Speaker
You need every department and each person to sign off on it until you can give the yes to the agent and author.
00:15:54
Speaker
Yeah, it does need to be.
00:15:56
Speaker
I mean, we want the sales team's feedback because they're the ones that know what's going on, what's selling, what retailers are looking for.
00:16:04
Speaker
So it's really helpful to have their feedback.
00:16:05
Speaker
And then, yeah, I mean, we're very fortunate in that we're not an independent publisher anymore because we were bought by Penguin Random House a few years ago, but we still function very much as an independent publisher.
00:16:16
Speaker
We're not affiliated with Penguin Random House UK at all.
00:16:20
Speaker
So we still have that quite small indie feel.
00:16:24
Speaker
And I would say it's, you know, if there's a project that we feel really passionate about, we're generally able to get it through.
00:16:33
Speaker
I mean, there's a process, but obviously... A long, complicated process with many cogs.
00:16:40
Speaker
Yeah, but I'd say it's slightly more informal than, for example, what Simon & Schuster was.
00:16:45
Speaker
I think that's the benefit of being a slightly smaller publisher.
00:16:49
Speaker
And also having worked...
00:16:51
Speaker
Lots of people at Little Tiger have been there for years and years.
00:16:54
Speaker
There's a real feel to the list and I think a lot of trust, which is really lovely.
00:16:59
Speaker
There's a trust that if you like it and you're passionate about it, that you'll make it work.
00:17:04
Speaker
Let's get into the nitty gritty then of the core of your job, the editorial part of it.
00:17:14
Speaker
You mentioned that you receive about 10 submissions.
00:17:18
Speaker
Is that you individually or the editing team receives 10?
00:17:21
Speaker
That's the editing team.
00:17:24
Speaker
But I'd say I probably get at least five, if not more a week.
00:17:29
Speaker
How many books and authors are you usually working with at any one time?
00:17:37
Speaker
Um, usually, I mean, I probably over the year work on between 12, up to 15.
00:17:49
Speaker
At any one time, maybe I'm just looking at my to-do list, probably about eight or nine.
00:17:56
Speaker
Um, cause they're all at the different stages.
00:18:00
Speaker
Um, so yes, I'll be working on first drafts, you know, copy edits,
00:18:06
Speaker
layouts for a text, contracts for books.
00:18:11
Speaker
We've got what we also do at Little Tiger, which is quite a big part of our publishing, is in-house ideas.
00:18:17
Speaker
When we come up with a concept in-house and develop it and then send out the brief to authors and agents who send in sample writing and then we pick an author based on that.
00:18:30
Speaker
So it's really fun.
00:18:32
Speaker
It's really fun.
00:18:34
Speaker
I really love it because it's a really creative, it's more sort of using the creative side of your brain to, I mean, it's all creative, but coming up with those ideas and then seeing them become books is really exciting and having that, you know, being able to, part of it is sort of looking at what's doing well for us, what's doing well in the market, what gaps we have and coming up with ideas to fill those gaps.
00:18:57
Speaker
And yeah, and so actually Dioven at Central Witch, which is one of our,
00:19:02
Speaker
theories that we launched last year that was an in-house originally an in-house concept and then honor and predator cargill have just i mean it's incredible what they've done they're such talented writers and then katie saunders illustrated it and i so i worked on that with um our editor at the time ella widette and it was just really it was like our baby seeing this idea that we'd had together and that we'd worked up become these amazing books
00:19:26
Speaker
It was very exciting.
00:19:28
Speaker
That's great
Flexible Editing Approach
00:19:29
Speaker
because that's something you don't always get in your role as an editor, is that sort of creative side of things.
00:19:37
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's something that I know when I was at S&S, we talked about doing it or wanting to do it quite a lot, but it was just, it is time consuming and you sort of have to really put aside the time to
00:19:47
Speaker
do it and it's it's not easy and also it can be quite daunting because you put in a meeting someone puts in a meeting saying new ideas and you think ah i've got to come up with something like how how do i do that yeah um but actually this year we sort of did a creative day out where we went to loads of bookshops um and the cartoon museum and then sat in a park and actually came up with loads of stuff and it was really fun just as a team to sort of bounce around ideas um
00:20:13
Speaker
And yeah, and actually we're starting a graphic novels list, which is very exciting.
00:20:18
Speaker
We're looking into graphic novels.
00:20:20
Speaker
And so that's something where we've been trying to come up with some ideas and find some writers and artists.
00:20:27
Speaker
So yeah, that's a really cool part of the job.
00:20:30
Speaker
Yeah, it sounds nice.
00:20:31
Speaker
And it sounds like you had a really nice, it sounds like the office culture is very good.
00:20:35
Speaker
These sort of nice day out creative and things like that.
00:20:38
Speaker
And you know, you're, you're starting a comic book thing.
00:20:41
Speaker
You work from, was it MG up to YA or was it five up to YA?
00:20:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:47
Speaker
So from, yeah, age five.
00:20:49
Speaker
So from really some books I work on have 3000 words and 96 pages and I'm mostly, you know, sort of almost full page illustrations and then others are 90,000 word YA.
00:21:01
Speaker
quite a range.
00:21:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:02
Speaker
So I mean, that in itself seems like big, but like, then when you go deeper, it's like every story and you as an editor work, you'll work closely with the authors.
00:21:12
Speaker
Every person is very unique.
00:21:16
Speaker
Does that mean that you have to like approach every project in a very sort of open and different way?
00:21:23
Speaker
Definitely.
00:21:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:24
Speaker
It is because each author is different.
00:21:26
Speaker
I think it's something that
00:21:28
Speaker
I think sometimes people forget is that authors are people, you know, we set these schedules and then actually stuff happens, life happens, lockdowns happen.
00:21:37
Speaker
And it all becomes, you know, kind of goes out the window a bit.
00:21:41
Speaker
So I think a key part of being an editor is just being really flexible.
00:21:44
Speaker
And like you said, being really
Author Collaboration and Trust
00:21:45
Speaker
open, talking, you know, getting to know the authors, finding out what works best for them.
00:21:51
Speaker
Like I worked with Sita Brahmachari on her YA novel, When Shadows Fall.
00:21:55
Speaker
And that was such an amazing experience for me as an editor because Sita is such an experienced writer and so passionate and does so many amazing things with her books and is also probably the most open author to edits I've ever met in that you'd send an edit and you'd get like a whole new manuscript back.
00:22:12
Speaker
But then she was saying that she, as an experienced author, will get edits and you spend so long trying to word your edits in a way that
00:22:21
Speaker
that you're used to softly, softly, trying to be nice, trying to... And actually Sita was like, just tell me what you want me to do and I'll do it because I trust you and we want to do... I spent so long unpicking all the comments and actually I just want to get to the heart of it.
00:22:38
Speaker
Whereas I know other authors do need a bit more hand-holding and can feel a little bit like you're pulling the book apart or... Because obviously you're writing... The whole point of edits is...
00:22:49
Speaker
you are celebrating the good, but you're trying to bring out more of it and strip back some stuff that's not working as much.
00:22:55
Speaker
You don't want it just to be a whole letter of criticism.
00:22:57
Speaker
So actually, I always find writing the editorial letter at the initial, you know, we sort of do a structural edit to begin with.
00:23:05
Speaker
I always find that really daunting and it ends up taking me probably the best part of the day to write it, to combine everything in a way that's clear, makes sense, but also isn't too overwhelming and also feels ultimately positive.
00:23:20
Speaker
Yeah, I think actually I remember
00:23:22
Speaker
Because I think you've spoken to Kezia Lupo.
00:23:24
Speaker
Yes.
00:23:26
Speaker
And I remember seeing her post something on Twitter about that people don't realise that it's actually really scary for an editor.
00:23:33
Speaker
Like I always have a thing when I read a first draft and you sort of feel this pressure that you've got to make it better.
00:23:37
Speaker
You know, your whole point of you being there is to make it better.
00:23:41
Speaker
And sometimes you read something and you know it's not quite working, but you can't figure out what.
00:23:46
Speaker
And you sort of think, oh, my goodness, what if I make it worse?
00:23:49
Speaker
What if I don't know what the answer is?
00:23:52
Speaker
And then you have to send it to the author and you're often not sure how they're going to react.
00:23:56
Speaker
So it can be quite daunting, but then there is that sort of magic moment.
00:24:00
Speaker
I was working on something the other day and it was really good, but I was like, something is just not,
00:24:05
Speaker
something's not working and I can't tell what it is and then you have that sort of oh it is one of the best things about of my job is that when you have that moment and it clicks into place and in this example it was um that it she'd written it in third person but actually I was like I think it would work a lot better in first person and then the second draft came in and I was like yes it does work better in first person and
00:24:26
Speaker
I mean, I wish we'd talked about it before because for author, it was quite a big job to change.
00:24:31
Speaker
That is a big job, yeah.
00:24:32
Speaker
Yeah, and it is something she had not done before.
00:24:34
Speaker
So I think she was quite daunted by it.
00:24:36
Speaker
And we had a few sort of phone calls about it.
00:24:39
Speaker
Yeah, lots of reassuring.
00:24:40
Speaker
But yeah, it sort of worked out really well.
00:24:42
Speaker
So yeah, I think authors talk about how they're scared when they send off their drafts of how people will read it.
00:24:48
Speaker
But editors are also scared of how people will read their edits.
00:24:52
Speaker
But ultimately, I mean, I'm incredibly lucky and work with just the most lovely group of authors who are all very nice.
00:24:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:01
Speaker
They're scary.
00:25:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:03
Speaker
And presumably the authors have, they've been through the submission process of, or whatever, of, of meeting with agents.
00:25:11
Speaker
The agents has, the agents have worked on edits with them as well.
00:25:14
Speaker
So hopefully they are at least expecting you to just not say, Oh, this is the greatest book ever written.
00:25:23
Speaker
No, no, no.
00:25:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:26
Speaker
I think it's very rare that that happens.
00:25:28
Speaker
Um,
00:25:29
Speaker
Yeah, but there's always, you know, I think we always have to remind, like you said, they've been through the process.
00:25:33
Speaker
I think for some people, maybe it's that they've been through that process before.
00:25:37
Speaker
And so then to go through it again can be a little bit tiring.
00:25:41
Speaker
But as we always reassure them, you know, we bought the book because we love it.
00:25:44
Speaker
We wouldn't have, you know, we read, all of us read so many submissions, so many books all the time.
00:25:49
Speaker
And the fact
Sensitivity Readers and Representation
00:25:50
Speaker
that, you know, if it was up to me, we'd publish all of them.
00:25:53
Speaker
But we obviously can't.
00:25:54
Speaker
So, you know, the fact that we've chosen to publish these books means that they're, you know, we think they're really special.
00:26:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:01
Speaker
I mean, it makes perfect sense that editors would, I would be incredibly anxious.
00:26:05
Speaker
I'm anxious just in my critique group when I'm thinking, oh, I need to, I wanted to send this critique note to someone.
00:26:13
Speaker
And then I'm like, oh, I don't want to hurt their feelings though.
00:26:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:16
Speaker
And that's the thing because it's so many feelings.
00:26:18
Speaker
It's such a personal thing, writing, that it is always, you know, like you said, you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or
00:26:24
Speaker
you never know where this well often you do know where the story is coming from because the authors often talk about why they why they write things um i think that's another actually important thing as an editor is there's you know sometimes stories are very personal and reflect experiences that the authors have had so it's sort of taking them in board on board and making sure sort of sensitive in how you're responding to that um
00:26:48
Speaker
And if there's a sort of purpose, so see that when, when shadows fall, um, Cita had a real purpose, that book had a real, for her had a real purpose of sort of encouraging creativity and reaching out to communities that have been forgotten.
00:27:00
Speaker
Um, and so that in, as part of the editorial process, we sort of had to keep that very much at the forefront of what we were doing to make sure that it didn't lose that, um,
00:27:11
Speaker
Yes, there's lots of, when you're editing, there's your brain sort of like buzzing with all these different things.
00:27:16
Speaker
Yeah, because it's not just, the writing doesn't exist on its own.
00:27:23
Speaker
It comes with the author and you need to understand.
00:27:25
Speaker
But it's a compromise as well.
00:27:26
Speaker
And you putting some edits down for an author doesn't necessarily mean you must make these changes or nothing's going to go ahead with this book.
00:27:37
Speaker
Oh, exactly.
00:27:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:38
Speaker
And that's always something we sort of say is, you know, these are just suggestions.
00:27:41
Speaker
And also, you know, if there's anything that you're not sure about, we can have a phone call about it.
00:27:47
Speaker
And yeah, there's sort of ways around it.
00:27:48
Speaker
But yeah, it's never a case of, you know, unless it's something that's harmful or.
00:27:56
Speaker
none of my authors, right?
00:27:58
Speaker
You know, unless there's anything really bad, there's always compromise.
00:28:03
Speaker
Well, presumably you probably wouldn't have picked up the book if there was something.
00:28:08
Speaker
Well, yeah, that's a very good point.
00:28:11
Speaker
But also in terms of things that, you know, unconscious bias is obviously a thing that everyone's talking about a lot at the moment.
00:28:18
Speaker
And I think we should be, which is why, so we have sensitivity readers for our books to make sure that, you know, and our author's,
00:28:25
Speaker
our authors often ask for that because, you know, they want to do the best they can for their readers in terms of making sure characters feel true and relatable and accurate, which I think is a really important part of the process.
00:28:41
Speaker
And yeah,
Matty's Writing Experience
00:28:42
Speaker
so yeah, like I said, if there was anything awful, then...
00:28:44
Speaker
We wouldn't have bought it.
00:28:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:46
Speaker
Then there'd be, there'd be an issue.
00:28:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:50
Speaker
Before we get onto the final question, I have to ask, have you ever written or wanted to write something yourself?
00:29:02
Speaker
And yeah, a lot of people have asked me this recently.
00:29:06
Speaker
And so when I when I was at SNS, I did do a tiny bit of writing.
00:29:11
Speaker
I wrote Snow Kisses and Hugs and Kisses, which were two little board books, which were sort of reuse artwork from Judy Abbott, who's this amazing illustrator.
00:29:22
Speaker
And they were sort of nine books.
00:29:23
Speaker
nine my main couplets um and it was actually really funny because the first one i think it was quite a quick process so we basically just i mean it was so saccharine i remember reading it out to our editorial director and being like i'm so sorry um but it was it was quite fun to do and we sort of just put that in and then the second one um one of my colleagues edited it and it was the first time i've been edited and i did not enjoy it i
00:29:48
Speaker
Alice, you're wrong.
00:29:49
Speaker
My work is perfect.
00:29:51
Speaker
And obviously she made it so much better.
00:29:53
Speaker
It's always quite interesting to have that insight, even just on, it was literally nine rhyming couplets.
00:29:57
Speaker
It was so, so straightforward, but it did make me appreciate being on the other side of the process.
00:30:05
Speaker
But other than that, I've not, no, I think, um,
00:30:09
Speaker
I don't really, I don't have, there's nothing that I feel, or I feel like I read so much children's, you know, for work, children's books and outside of work.
00:30:20
Speaker
And I just think, I don't know, I can't, I don't think I'll be able to think up an idea that wasn't completely original or that was completely original.
00:30:28
Speaker
I think because I've read so much, it would always be informed by something I'd read.
00:30:32
Speaker
And I just, yeah, I'm in awe of people who can sit down and write.
00:30:38
Speaker
I'm very happy in my role as editor just to help to get it's such it feels like such a privilege to get to work on these amazing books and I love the relationship that an editor and an author have it's a really special one I think of trust and you become really you know you sort of learn lots about different people and yeah no I'm happy very happy just editing.
00:31:01
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's so true, but it becomes, I think, a very strong relationship between an editor and author.
00:31:09
Speaker
Obviously, as time goes by, even stronger, because you just have to be very truthful with each other.
00:31:16
Speaker
And it's sort of forced, it's a requirement of the relationship is that you have to be good at communicating.
00:31:22
Speaker
Otherwise, it won't work.
00:31:24
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
00:31:25
Speaker
Yeah, the communication is so key.
00:31:28
Speaker
And I think something that we want,
Desert Island Book Choice
00:31:30
Speaker
I think what books do really well and that we want all our books to do is sort of empathy.
00:31:33
Speaker
And I think that is also something that in the relationship is quite key, sort of being able to understand what's going on with someone else in order to sort of get the best out of them.
00:31:45
Speaker
And also as an editor, being able, you know, if someone tells you actually
00:31:48
Speaker
don't like this or I don't agree with this being able to be like okay that's fine um as much as authors don't want to maybe don't want to change their work I think sometimes editors like yeah I thought my suggestion was quite good but fine um yeah but it's all compromise
00:32:03
Speaker
Yeah, that's really, really interesting.
00:32:05
Speaker
And I've learned a lot, I think, from this chat about the role of an editor and what it's like.
00:32:11
Speaker
And that brings us to the final question, which, as always, is, Matty, if you were stranded on a desert island, but could take a single book with you, which one would it be?
00:32:22
Speaker
This was, I was saying earlier that it was a very difficult question, but a fun one to think about.
00:32:28
Speaker
And I think I would have to take Girl Up by Laura Bates.
00:32:32
Speaker
Okay.
00:32:33
Speaker
Which, I mean, Laura Bates, I just think is one of the most fantastic people.
00:32:38
Speaker
So she founded the Everyday Sexism Project and she's written several books.
00:32:44
Speaker
She's
00:32:46
Speaker
incredible.
00:32:46
Speaker
She goes into schools and talks to young people.
00:32:50
Speaker
She is also just completely lovely.
00:32:53
Speaker
She's published, SNS published her book, so I've met her a few times through that, and she is just wonderful.
00:32:58
Speaker
But Girl Up is my sort of go-to book if I'm ever feeling down or lacking confidence or if something's happened, because it's just so funny, but also important, I think, and it really speaks to
00:33:15
Speaker
women and young girls, it sort of is all about your confidence and setting up for yourself and actually knowing what's right or what you know, what you deserve or how you should be treated.
00:33:28
Speaker
And yeah, I mean, it's like, but I think what she does so brilliantly is that it is just really funny and so relatable.
00:33:36
Speaker
So I do go back to that book quite often as it is.
00:33:39
Speaker
And I think if I was, if I could only have one book, that'd be one book that I'd be happy to just keep reading over and over again.
00:33:46
Speaker
Well, great.
00:33:46
Speaker
Sounds amazing.
00:33:47
Speaker
It's such an incredible talent.
00:33:49
Speaker
I'm always in awe of authors who can be just so funny, but at the same time are making serious points and talking about very deep issues.
00:34:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:02
Speaker
And I think that's one of Laura's skills is when you hear her talk, she is so, I mean, she knows
00:34:08
Speaker
she's just a fountain of facts.
00:34:11
Speaker
Um, and she's always so calm and measured and she comes up against people who aren't so calm and measured and she's always, you know, she's just got that real way of getting to the heart of things.
00:34:23
Speaker
Um, and yeah, making things, you know, presenting things in a way that you can completely absorb and relate to and they're inclusive and funny and
00:34:33
Speaker
I don't have an, I could talk about Laura all day, but I won't.
00:34:38
Speaker
Let's wrap it up before we, but a great, great choice.
00:34:42
Speaker
And it sounds like she's a real inspiration, which it's lovely to know that you, you met your hero and she didn't disappoint.
00:34:49
Speaker
She did not.
00:34:50
Speaker
Well, thank you so much, Mattie, for coming on
Conclusion and Social Media
00:34:52
Speaker
and sharing your, your experience and your, everything that you sort of learned with us and me and everyone listening.
00:34:58
Speaker
It's been really great chatting with you.
00:35:00
Speaker
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
00:35:02
Speaker
And for anyone listening, if you want to keep up with what Mattie's doing, you can follow her on Twitter at Mattie2507 or head over to the Little Tiger website, www.littletiger.co.uk.
00:35:16
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss an episode of this podcast, follow us on Twitter at RightAndWrongUK or on Instagram at RightAndWrongPodcast.
00:35:24
Speaker
Thanks again for coming on and chatting to us, Mattie.
00:35:26
Speaker
And thanks to everyone listening.
00:35:28
Speaker
We'll catch you in the next episode.
00:35:32
Speaker
Thanks again for supporting the show and we'll see you in the next episode.