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07: It IS Rocket Science with Naia Butler-Craig
940 Plays4 months ago
How many times have we said, "Well, it's not like it's rocket science." Well, TODAY is your lucky day! Today it IS rocket science, and we have none other than aerospace engineer Naia Butler-Craig to hold our hand while teaching us one of the toughest subjects. Today we're learning rocket science.
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Transcript
Pre-show banter and guest introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
How are you going to send a bunch of professionals out into the middle of space and beyond well farther than humans have ever been and not have no fucking Lexapro on the fucking shit? A little emergency stash, you know what I'm saying? An emergency stash!
Naya's journey into aerospace engineering
00:00:37
Speaker
Naya. Welcome. Thank you. Welcome, welcome, welcome. I'm so glad that we have this opportunity. i um How have you been, first of all? like How have you been? Oh, my goodness. It's so good to catch up with you, but life's been... Definitely.
00:00:59
Speaker
even She got hands, okay? Right. Man, earrings off, but God is still good. It's just definitely been an event for the last few months between very long hours at the lab, which is pretty usual, but it's been it was exacerbated by some pretty big test campaigns and then um a couple of freak accidents. So, yeah. But we're alive and we're here to tell the story and that's what matters. So how are you doing? I'm great. I mean, you know, it's some shenanigans going on, but life is lifeing. But I'm overall great, like really excited about the show and to have you on and like.
00:01:40
Speaker
One of the things that I was, I thought was hilarious is just that the show was called The Science of Life. And we study the, iner like we talk about the intersections of the life sciences and society. But I also wanted to have this part of the show where I bring on my friends and whether or not they're in the life sciences. um We talk about like their work in the context of society. So like think of this episode as friends of Dr. Raven, you know, friends of Dr. Raven on the science of life. But
00:02:17
Speaker
um Let's talk about you and what you do. Like, first of all, Naya Butler Craig, you are a, you are an aerospace engineer. Yes, ma'am. Rocket scientist. Sure. but yeah I can't say it. Do you, like, you you can't say it? It just feels so, like, not cliche, but would I don't know, obnoxious whenever I can't remember. Like, pretentious. like it's accurate still because people generally don't even know what rocket science is and they just know it's a term to throw around when you're talking about like a super smart person but like what is rocket science?
00:03:03
Speaker
Absolutely. I would say rocket science would encompass all things rocketry. So if you work with rockets, if you build them, if you design them, if you test them, um if you're working to understand them, make them better, optimize them, I would consider that rocket science.
Naya's interest in satellites and CubeSats
00:03:19
Speaker
I believe there's science that goes into all aspects of rocketry for sure. How the hell did you get into that? Like, do you did you like building stuff when you were a kid or were you like, damn, what if I could build Ferraris? But just if the Ferraris could be in space, like, is that what? Yeah, honestly, thanks for bringing that up, because I am Bugatti spaceship. So, yeah, yo.
00:03:42
Speaker
um What, I guess my, I definitely always love building things. um I actually have a funny story that my mom loves to tell everybody that when I was like seven years old, um I had these model cars that I would see around um my uncle's house. I grew up with like my uncles and cousins and they're all boys. So they had model cars and I drew the underbody of a vehicle, but I modified it in my seven year old brain to run on oxygen. And I just knew that it did. What? I just knew that it did.
00:04:14
Speaker
I wish I still have it. Obviously, it probably did not. But in whatever creative way I thought that that could work, I had ah drew a diagram of it. And so I knew I liked engineering based off of that because that was pretty standard for me. Like my uncle would also take apart computers um for fun as a kid. But we were both around the same age. So I'd just be around him watching him. um But then it wasn't until eighth grade that I learned about. um I was in a class called Earth Space Science. And that's where I learned about the Earth. I learned about space and um all different kind of physical phenomena as it's related to
00:04:55
Speaker
um Yeah, space and space exploration um and that kind of sparked my curiosity um regarding space and being just curious um and intrigued by the universe itself and how vast it was. I remember i remember this exact thought like, wow, there's just infinite boundless um place right above our heads and I want to know everything about it. And um that just excited me so much that that you can't know everything about space that it's that vast. So um that's kind of where it started. But I've always been as an engineering geek and then space came later and then aerospace literally um formulated after I took that class because I started researching careers that included science and engineering in space. And I never looked back from eighth grade.
00:05:44
Speaker
I absolutely love that. So you had this early engineering interest and you had an interest in space. So I guess it only made sense to figure out what you could engineer in space and you landed on rockets. But did you ever consider other things to engineer like space stations or I don't even know, a space suits? That's a great question. um Actually, I like satellites. I like space ships, per se. And in my head, the, um you know, spaceships is a very like pop culture term, sci fi term. But the spaceships in my head were like satellites. That was like the manifestation of that in reality. um And so my first internship at NASA Glenn, when I got the pathways internship, I worked on CubeSats. And so CubeSats were actually what
00:06:37
Speaker
I was really excited about because of how modular, small, easy they are to procure and then fly. um And then when I learned about my current propulsion field, why what my initial goal was to um integrate the two. So basically miniaturize electric propulsion thrusters, which I learned about later, but miniaturize them to be used on miniature CubeSats and basically send a bunch of them out to do really cool science in deep space. That was my goal. So yes, I wasn't always a propulsion geek per se. I knew I liked it. But um my first, ah I was most intrigued by CubeSats when I kind of learned more about aerospace. So are CubeSats actual cubes that
00:07:23
Speaker
are satellites exactly like what do you put in them great question um oh can i go grab my my mock one really fast yeah okay one second i'm back so this is a cute oh yeah So what it is, is um this would be essentially a 1U CubeSat. The way that they're classified is by a number and U meaning one unit. So one unit is supposed to be, what is it, four?
00:07:57
Speaker
I forget the dimensions. I think it's four inches by four inches, so it's an actual cube. But this is a 3U keepsat, which is just when you stack three on top of each other. And so what they're meant to do is condense the traditional satellite into a volume as small as this. And so the way you do that, or the way most keepsats do is through printed circuit boards, which um are basically like the various subsystems you can find you'd find in a traditional satellite. So subsystems meaning um the little components of the total system that help it to do what it needs to do. For an example, um this is a model ah model of a CubeSat but it actually has the different subsystems in here. So there's a communications module, there's a power processing unit to provide power, there is a attitude control unit which controls the attitude in space and helps you orient um your spacecraft.
00:08:53
Speaker
there is in the payload and payload is typically like what what what are you actually doing in space like what's your goal so your payload would be designed specifically for whatever mission or objective you're trying to carry out. So um okay yeah. it's How big are they? Is that to size? This is to size. This is to scale. And I told tell people a 3U CubeSat is literally the length of like a low ah loaf of bread. And so imagine traditional satellites are like one ton. They're huge. um But you know with the invention of CubeSats, printed circuit board, and basically nanotechnology, we've been able to condense all that into this tiny volume. And these are supposed to be solar panels that would kind of coat the outer chassis.
00:09:35
Speaker
And then of course, help you provide power or solar power that be converted into electrical power. And this is an antenna. So, CubeSats. And middle schools launch these and have them already in space. That's how cool it is. Doing what? I'd have to look at the actual like missions they've sent up, but I know my school launched a couple of keepsets last year, two years ago, and it just got into whatever orbit it was looking for, or it just finished whatever mission. but um
00:10:08
Speaker
I mean, there's so much you could do. I mean, I think they have expanded their capability so much because these came started becoming more prevalent in the industry when I started grad school, maybe. What was my first time hearing about them? I think, yeah, no, no. My first time hearing about them was my first time working on them, which was 20 years ago. seventeen And so by now there's probably so much more you can do. So my information is probably outdated. Oh, have you met Cadence before? Cadence Payne? Dr. Cadence Payne? She just, she just defended um from MIT with aerospace engineering. She used CubeSats to
00:10:44
Speaker
look at and I went to her defense so this is why I know this. So, excuse me Dr. Payne if I mess this up. But she used CubeSats to look at the ocean color and Mega has documented for some kind of climate reason and help inform on climate change um topics, I
Understanding propulsion and thrusters
00:11:01
Speaker
guess. But ah that's one use case of using them. So, you can do a lot. It's pretty cool. So, like, let's talk about propulsion then because now I have questions relevant to your field and let's how do the cube sets how do they get into space and then you mentioned one of the projects just got into the orbit their desired orbit what like
00:11:27
Speaker
Clearly they're not just flapping their little wings and like flying and great anywhere. But like, so what do you have to take into consideration to get something into space and then also maneuver something in space. Excellent question. So the first one was how do they get to space? So that's another reason why these are so much more affordable than traditional anything, honestly, but definitely traditional traditional satellites, because these can go on something called a rideshare rocket. And so the um mission not a Uber, it's a it's a space Uber for a CubeSat girl.
00:12:05
Speaker
We are living. Who's doing that? Is there an app for this? I wish. I believe so. The keeps that I worked on at NASA Glenn from 2017 rode on um a rocket from rocket labs, I believe. Yeah, it's called Rocket Labs and it's something called Elena. It was like a program where a bunch of organizations who built CubeSats could basically buy their ticket onto this rocket and they go in something called Peapod Deployers. So these Peapod Deployers will house your CubeSat and then literally shoot them out.
00:12:40
Speaker
whatever you're supposed to according to whatever your mission objective is. um But those peapod deployers, you can put a bunch of them with these keepsets installed um into the payload of a rocket and depending on what you're trying to do, it will basically blast those keepsets out. um Typically, um I'm assuming it it would be at apogee. So the highest point the rocket goes, that's basically like your orbit insertion. And so it depends on what orbit you want, of course. So say if I'm going to like a very a low Earth orbit, that's a little bit more straightforward than me going to a higher orbit per se. and Higher orbit operations would require um an auxiliary or an additional um form of propulsion. There's a lot of micro propulsion out there.
00:13:26
Speaker
um I believe there's electro sprays, there are cold gas thrusters which basically just like shoots cold gas out of the thruster in one direction and you're able to um choose the direction that happens so that you can adequately travel to where you're trying to go. um Electric repulsion has been miniaturized for um I believe It hasn't been commercially commercially available yet. It's definitely something that universities are working on and the, you know, research scientists are working on. But there there definitely is a use case for miniature thrusters small enough to fit in basically the propulsion devices for this type of keepsap or this small payload. I want to talk about like the nature of space and and like the actual science of propulsion. So,
00:14:16
Speaker
And you can correct me if I'm wrong. Of course. King, mind you, I i do the squishy stuff, the little itty bitty squishy molecules. so I love it. I mean, in contrast, you know, we can draw a contrast in the parallels between space, like the nature of space and the nature of cells, right? In cells, it's full of molecules. There's yeah ial the there's you know, there's floating proteins, there's biomolecules everywhere, everything's like in contact with each other, you know, and then there's space where everything is like vastly empty. no So when I hear like
00:14:59
Speaker
I think I don't remember what you said. Electric. Do you say electric purple? What? Electric poo poo poo. It's the worst. No way. There's no way I can't say this. I i refuse to believe that I'm going to struggle with this the whole episode. Listen, I still get them. Propulsion. There you go. There it is. Oh, my God.
00:15:22
Speaker
Okay. yes i own So, is it using electrons to for propel the spacecraft? Great question. So, yeah, not quite electrons. Electrons aren't involved, but the actual thing that gets accelerated to produce the thrust are the ions, actually. So, um in electric propulsion, it is an acceleration of the the this positively charged particle, which is the ion, um and that is how we produce thrust.
00:15:54
Speaker
What happened? You're gonna have to, you gotta, you gotta. I gotta take it deeper, okay. You gotta take it deeper. Yes ma'am. Okay, so basically when, what's the best way? so You have ions and electrons, right? And you know, yeah I guess you learn this in chemistry that ions are the positively charged particles, electrons are negatively charged. The difference is ions are a bit heavier or they're pretty, they're They're not just a bit heavier. They're orders of magnitude heavier and than electrons are. And so you can create ions by bombarding an electron with a neutral atom and basically freeing that neutral atom of the outermost shell of its electron sphere. So when that's free, it becomes positively charged. So that's what an ion is.
00:16:52
Speaker
Thoughts?
00:16:57
Speaker
I'm loving the faces. I need this kind of feedback with... Because I'm trying to remember my knowledge of ions and like chemistry. So, there there's positive and negative ions, right? Like cat ions right and anions? Right. That's a good point. Yeah. We don't get into that. That's a bit deeper than sister has touched, at least with respect to the plasmas we work with. Oh, okay. But for us, ions are always positively charged.
00:17:28
Speaker
Really? And the plasmas that we work with and produce with our thrusters. Because they're losing electrons. Exactly. Right. To what? They are basically, I guess you're not losing it to anything in particular, but the electron is just leaving. Now, where it goes is a matter of plasma physics. How did they just, how did they do that? Like, because in my world, okay, maybe this is just the intersection with the life sciences. Sure. You thought that happens through chemical reactions. Like, one atom has to take an electron, remove an electron from another atom, or there is a, there the chemical environment, whether it's temperature or acidity, that will drive, that can drive energetically electrons to move in certain ways. So, right or pressure even. So like,
00:18:25
Speaker
You're saying that the electron is just leaving? No. In space? Like, is it just like, yeah, actually. Right. Peace out. I'm clocking in. I know. I know. It was great, but I, will you know. Right. I gotta go. You ain't gotta go home. I gotta go. No. So what happens is you have the neutral atom and an electron then bombards it. That ionizes that neutral atom. So it frees. To make it. Yes. It will free an electron in the process of bombarding it. Oh, so it's just smacking the shit out of the... That's what we need to say. The ion. So it's just like... Right. And in the process, ah who it's losing electrons, but also gaining electrons at the same time? Not necessarily. So that can happen. That's something called recombination, where you have an ion that then gets interacted with a free electron and it um becomes neutral.
00:19:22
Speaker
And that's something that does happen for us but um no, the the goal is for them to remain ions and then when they are, um when they when ions are produced, they're quickly accelerated away. And so, if you think of it like a ball, i when I think of thrust, I think of throwing things in a direction to produce thrust. So, what you're throwing, if I have a ball in my hand, is the ion itself. It's moving too quickly and that's the goal at least, too quickly to recombine um and until it's at a length far enough that um it's produced the thrust we've already wanted it to produce. And so, Hall Effect Thrusters and um well, I'll just say electrostatic thrusters, that encompasses both Hall Effect Thrusters and Ion Thrusters.
00:20:06
Speaker
What they do is they ionize the gas, accelerate it with an electric field and then they have the cathode um that will produce electrons that will go to recombine with those ions and eventually it's called a neutralization pathway. um But that's just because we don't want our thruster to become too too negative or too positive um and start doing weird things.
Components of Hall Effect Thrusters
00:20:29
Speaker
But the goal is for the ion to be produced and then quickly accelerate it out to reduce that thrust. so i want I need help understanding the movement aspect and how
00:20:41
Speaker
Cause now we're we're basically saying, I don't know if it's correct to call this chemical reactions, um but I'm just going to say chemical reaction because that's how we would describe something like this in the life sciences. ok I need help connecting how a chemical reaction can drive a movement, like a directional, a desired directional movement. for a spacecraft. How chemical reactions... Oh, understood. Okay. So, you're asking how are we how are we controlling what direction the ion moves when it is... Yeah. Great question. Yeah. So, that is through the electric field that is produced by the anode and the cathode in that thruster.
00:21:30
Speaker
I know about those. Period. Okay. Exactly. So that's going to create a direction of propagation for the ion, which is usually out and away from your thruster. I love the dance. I love it. Period. Here behind the ear, the Debbie Ryan no
00:21:56
Speaker
so of those were yes so so basically It's like magic. Yeah. Can you see this stuff happening? Like, is there any visual aspect to this? There is a plasma produced. It's a very pretty one. um have but Have I shown? Oh, how do we? I wish we could like pull it up. so Oh, maybe i' pull up my phone. Show us. Show us. Show us. I could probably show you from the other day what I was doing because we've been running thrusters for the last like six months. But these wouldn't look like.
00:22:35
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Yeah. sell us what's Tell us what's in the picture. I want to know. Sure. Okay. So what you have is this is a Hall effect thruster. So electric propulsion can be classified in three ways. There's electrostatic electromagnetic and electrothermal. The way they're classified is basically um the method by which the ions are physically accelerated. Electrostatic will use electric fields, electromagnetic will use both electromagnetic fields. ah Electrothermal does something that I haven't paid attention to in a long time, but I'm sure it's great. um My focus is electrostatic thrusters. And so two thrusters that fall under that umbrella are hall effect thrusters and ion thrusters.
00:23:20
Speaker
um They work very similarly but they have... Well, I won't say they work very similarly. They do the same thing but they have different ways of doing it. This is a Hall effect fester. This is my core competency per se and what we do in the lab. And what it looks like here... Actually, let me find one where it's not running. This is what they typically look like. This is from NASA. Yeah, I don't know if you can see that too well. But you see how there's like a big gap in the middle of those two like circle things? Yeah. So that big gap is something called the discharge channel. So all that blue stuff, plasma, is coming out of that discharge channel. Damn. Yeah. And so within this thruster, there is the actual thruster body housing. There's some electromagnets because um in order to continue the ionization process we talked about, we need to have a hall drift of electrons going around that channel consistently.
00:24:11
Speaker
so they can keep bombarding the neutral gas repellent that you're injecting into that channel, you want that to be continuous because you don't want to lose, you need ions to produce this. And so, the eye the neutral atoms are coming out of the back of that discharge channel, the electrons are circulating but marten them creating ions and thus creating our pretty boob plasma. But that is the thrust. And so, um we have the electromagnets. Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't explain why those electrons will continue to circulate. There's a radial magnetic field that's applied to these thrusters that will confine these electrons into this hall current drift. It's it's actually like a physical phenomenon that it's called. It's called ah a hall effect. um And so, that's how they they remain in that discharge channel and they're not accelerated. Well, they're not supposed to be. They will be due to inefficiencies of stuff.
00:25:03
Speaker
But in a perfect world, they're not supposed to be accelerated. They're supposed to stay in the channel. And so um the last component is the cathode. The cathode is my personal baby. I've had to go to a couple of those. um And there's a lot of really interesting plasma physics that happens just in the cathode alone. But the cathode produces those electrons that we want to circulate. And it does that. and That was going to be my next question, actually. Where is fuck does that shit come from? Yes, yes. help Help me break up this explanation because I could talk for years. Cause I want to know, like, so in my head, right, until, up until this moment, all right, I'm thinking y'all just got a bottle of this shit. We got a bottle of rions. We got a bottle of electrons. here yeah And we just, mr service yeah, in that tube or in the in the middle of that circle and boom, plasma. But you're saying,
00:26:03
Speaker
The electrons come from a cathode. Yes, aunt. Mm-hmm so Tell us more. Yes, yeah. So the cathode is very cool. The cathode is both your negative electrode because it's providing those electrons um and it's your neutralizer. But we'll get into neutralizers later or what that is later because I think we talked about it briefly but I feel like that might confuse things. But the cathode essentially what it has is something called a thermionic emitter inside of it. um And the cathode is actually
00:26:38
Speaker
Three main components in a traditional hollow cathode, I'm sorry, I should be specific, a hollow cathode for hollow effect dusters, there are three main components. There's the cathode body, there's the heater, and then there's the keeper. I know it sounds like a lot. But basically the cathode body houses a thermionic emitter. That just means that it's a material that requires a certain um temperature to get up to and then when it does hit that ah emission temperature it will begin to emit electrons.
00:27:10
Speaker
And so that's where our electrons come from. But while we're heating up that emitter to start emitting electrons, we're actually also pushing neutral flow through the center of this hollow cathode as well. So then you have another dense region of ionized gas. um right in the middle of your cathode body. In order to pull that dense cloud of plasma out of it, we will also um provide an electric field between the cathode body and something called the keeper. And that is the outermost kind of ah component of the cathode. And then from there, you would then apply your voltage or your electric field between your cathode body and your anode, which is again the positive.
00:27:54
Speaker
And then those electrons will flow out and into your discharge channel and do our Hall current drift that we talked about.
00:28:05
Speaker
Fine. No, we're not finished. I have more questions. I actually commissioned a graphic that I can show. I don't know how well it's going to show up on here, though. Let's see it. Let's see. OK. Oh, not me looking thick. OK, wait. There we go. So I don't know if you can, can you see that okay? yeah Probably can't see the names of things but do you see that that plate in the back with the holes in it? yep Okay, that's our anode. So the anode is not just the positive electrode, it's also your gas distributor. So those holes are how the neutral propellant will get into the that that that gap, that discharge channel that we talked about.
00:28:46
Speaker
Then down here, you see that cathode and I don't know if you can see those, um are they orange? Yes, those orange dots are electrons coming from the cathode. Now watch this. Because of that magnetic field which she's put, she pointed to the electromagnets on the side, that magnetic field is radial. So, it's gonna confine those electrons into the discharge channel and they will get caught in a Hall drift as you can see. I think you can see that. Now you can see the neutral propellant coming in through the back. I think it's pink, it's kind of hard to differentiate. But what those are gonna produce are blue ions and you'll see the ions come out. She's citing for my life.
00:29:31
Speaker
But that's it. That's how it works. All right. So it's making sense. Good. Good. It's making sense. Yes. So I have questions. OK. Everyone thinks this is a book, but it's actually like full of blank pages. I love it. Just so you know, I'm not I'm not reading a book about rabbits and their history.
Propellants and fuel efficiency in space
00:29:54
Speaker
I wouldn't I wouldn't tell you. But I got this at a hipster store and I felt very hipster just carrying this around like. It gives. It gives. It completes the look. Debbie Ryan, yes. Like, oh wow, what an interesting book you're reading. I'm like, thanks. There's literally nothing in it. I'm actively writing it, actually. Thanks. I literally. So. It's I.
00:30:19
Speaker
Is there a fuel? Like what is the fuel great source? So we don't typically call it fuel in our application but it's the same thing. What we call it is propellant just because we're using a automat um um atomic gas to produce or as our propellant. um So propellant and fuel could be interchangeable. Fuel just usually ah corresponds to a specific type of like fuel, which are used in like, combusted processes. um We use propellant, and so we use all the noble gases. I know you know this because you're the periodic table queen, so...
00:30:59
Speaker
We use Argonne or the most, I would say the most popular was Xenon, of course, but Xenon got super expensive. So, um yeah, that gets political, none of my business. But um and Xenon was like the most utilized. Now the industry's kind of shifted to Krypton. But there's, I believe, SpaceX pioneer using Argonne, at least commercially. um And I've worked with Argonne a couple times. um
00:31:31
Speaker
In some very, in the older thusters, I believe the ion thusters, they abused mercury. um And now that's not a, that's not a noble gas. It sure isn't. So I believe that's kind of why they don't use it anymore. I don't know if there were go kind of interactions um or I won't say anymore. Cause I can't speak for the whole industry, but um I don't see it. But iodine was another option. um Also not a noble gas. Exactly. And they hated that one because um it was it was convenient for the fact that I believe it was like easier to like package per se or compactable. Maybe that's not a good word but um it damages. Would it have to be in gas form? Yes, in my experience. At least and the definitely the atomic gases need to be. Okay. And how?
00:32:21
Speaker
I guess fuel efficient, propellant efficient is gas. Like, how how quick are you running through? How much gas does it take the fuel? Like, what are those cubes at? Hmm, great question. So that's one of the major What's the best way to say it? Desirability points for electric propulsion, it is extremely, um they I won't say fuel efficient, um but it has a high specific impulse. And so in rocketry, we use something called ISP to be a measure of efficiency. And that typically, um I believe the best way to translate that is how much thrust per unit mass.
00:33:02
Speaker
So, you have all this thrust, but how much mass is it are you required to use all this thrust? And so, the higher that number, the more efficient you are. Electrical propulsion has a very high ISP, typically. I think um the highest reported that I've heard, again, I can't speak for the whole industry. So, haters, I'll be you know trying to correct me. It's 3,000 seconds. um That's pretty high. um I wish I could think of an ISP for like a chemical rocket to compare but it's much more fuel efficient than um a chemical rocket would be. 3000 seconds and that's per what? That's your that's your specific impulse. And what exactly is that again? So it's the thrust per unit mass.
00:33:51
Speaker
Yeah, you have to do the SI units to work out how you come back down to seconds. But the point is that it's very high. What's that? Dimensional analysis. Yeah, go ahead. And you're going to do it. Maybe I can. I'm not going to do it. OK, excellent. We don't got to do it. We don't got to do that. Right. You know what? It's for the listener. LOL. I am starting to understand rocket science a little more. So what I'm very curious about is what kind of classes did you have to take? It sounds like you had to take some physics, you had to take some chemistry, yeah and it sounds like probably materials engineering too. So what class, like what actual classes, I have guesses, but what did you have to take?
00:34:46
Speaker
That's exactly right. um the The core classes in NEAE coursework were typically physics. um I had to take material science to put a very basic thing. Thermodynamics is extremely important. I'm talking on undergrad right now and of course math and ah We do, at least in my undergraduate curriculum, we had to do electrical engineering like 101, so circuits and all that good stuff and that end that's actually extremely relevant to me now and I kind of wish that it was more integrated into my coursework but that's just the nature of electric propulsion. It is extremely interdisciplinary and I didn't know this but even like the niche ways, like the niche parts of electric propulsion are very interdisciplinary. so
00:35:35
Speaker
Uh, my research is focused on like laser diagnostics for these thrusters. And so, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Yeah. There's another can of worms. She done fucking said lasers. Yes ma'am. We got some lasers. So when we talk about lasers, first of all, what is a laser? And what is a laser diagnostic? Like, look.
00:36:03
Speaker
Dang wait for a thruster like whoa I know I wish I could just like show my instagram laser diagnostic but so I mean I guess from my perspective diagnostic means you're trying to diagnose like a disease or like analyze something or assess something so right what what is a laser diagnostic Okay, so we're thruster. No, you have it exactly right. At least exactly what you think it is. It's a coherent beam of like photons, right? But when you talk about diagnostics in the as it's relevant to electric propulsion, or honestly, any propulsion, what do you want to know is what's going on in your thruster. So we use diagnostics for that.
00:36:48
Speaker
and Typically, they're called like probes. and so um I'm just going to throw some names out there, but I won't go into what they are, but there's like Faraday probes, Langmuir probes, um residual retarding potential analyzers, and stuff like that. Those are like the typical probe suite for our type of thruster. What they tell you about the plasma is the electron temperature, the electron density. the um You can learn about ion density using other laser diagnostics. but ah Basically, you want to understand the dynamics of the plasma that you're producing. um And you can, you know, learn that through various ways. um And you want to understand its plasma properties. So that's typically related to electronic, I'm sorry, temperature and density. And so traditionally, we will use metal probes to diagnose these stressors or to learn about man overrobe metal Metal.
00:37:46
Speaker
Oh, metal probes. I'm like, girl, damn. Nano probes. Oh, no. Oh, no. You've got it. and know But yes, metal metal metal probes. I got you. Yes, ma'am. And so that's great. But when we're talking about a plasma, the plasma that's being produced because it's it's also plasma propulsion technically. Right. So in the plasma being produced is just comprised of what? Ions and electrons. So when you have an elect ah sorry a metal probe which is typically conductive and has its own electrons associated with it, it will go into your plasma and change things. And you don't want that because then you're not measuring the pure properties of that plasma. You're measuring the perturbed properties due to that probe being in that plasma.
00:38:36
Speaker
and So, we use lasers because it's a non-intrusive way to measure those same properties. So, like I said, electron. Okay, I'm sure. And and we care about the ions too. I'm just thinking about my specific um my specific laser diagnostic, but you know, ion-electron temperature, ion-electron density, um drift velocities, and there's more, but of course, that's kind of like the baseline of what you definitely need to know to understand what's going on near your thruster. Okay. So. Okay. Let's.
00:39:09
Speaker
I understand now. I think I understand. Guys, I'm not a rocket scientist, but I can confidently say I understand an aspect of rocket science. Current rocket science, which is really cool. And thank you for explaining all of that. That's like, boys. A lot of people would not be able to articulate all of the things that you just said. So all the fact that I'm able to understand it really just speaks to your ability to communicate your science and like a cheaper rocket science. I mean, granted, I have I also have a background in can a science that involves understanding very small things. Yeah. um So I can tangentially understand, but like it's still even for me hard. But let's let's bring it back to um like the intersections with society. Yeah. So.
Ethical concerns in space commercialization
00:40:02
Speaker
We are kind of going into a time where ah space is becoming more accessible basically by through the commercialization of the space industry. So how do you feel about, I mean, what do you feel, what are your, what is your attitude towards that? I guess I would love to know as someone who is studying how to drive these crafts in space, like, and actually getting them to move. You know, do you ever think about the social implications of your work and like, OK, like, I'm a rocket scientist and I'm studying propulsion, but what am I propelling? Who am I propelling? Like, what what is my actual role in this broader space ecosystem? I would love to know your thoughts on that. No, I love that question so much because I think
00:40:57
Speaker
my research and even like what I'm doing in school from the day to day or like on a day to day basis is so focused that like that perspective is still so far all the time but I feel like I am in a very um I'm very blessed to be in a position just through social media and through my networking that I'm asked those kind of questions about like what are the ethical implications of what we do and like taking it away some EP and deep space like just you know just rocketry itself or um
00:41:30
Speaker
or this the space industry itself. What I'm trying to say is I'm grateful that I'm in those conversations. But what I feel and what I've always felt to my core is like, I'm not a fan of doing anything just because it's cool. One, I believe that we should obviously have like purpose for doing things. And we should consider all the parties involved. And that's kind of why space was such a big driver for me. As a kid and now because I felt like it was this huge unifying force where like the world ah literally could work together to advance and evolve our humanity to explore space. And that's always been my kumbaya like dream. And that's always something I've thought about.
00:42:11
Speaker
But when it comes to, say, deep space exploration, and if you think of the words that were thrown around a few years ago, like Mars colonization, those things would make me very uncomfortable because I was like, are we just doing this because it's fun? And if we're doing it, are we considering all of the impre implications? that um that come with settling somewhere and are we bringing the same attitudes from back home and how we've colonized and settled in places back home to new celestial bodies and is that healthy?
00:42:47
Speaker
And I feel like that is a conversation that needs to be so much more prevalent in our industry because we get so wrapped up in the kind of small microscopic components of our fields. But when you think over the broader perspective, we should like it should be a, it should be in the coursework. Like what are the ethical implications of what we do? For example, I came across this on Twitter. So not in school, which I wish I would have. I came across this article on Twitter about how rocket launches off the space coast were affecting bird migrations. And it's not something I even thought about. We're coming full circle back to the bird. Yes. It's all it's it's. I love it. I need help on that one.
00:43:37
Speaker
you know that ain't me but i care every episode every episode comes back to birds that's so crazy single one wow that is so cool just laying it out there what are the birds though that we go on no The birds are special, huh? Okay. We need to take Karina. You know, she's the the the bird scientist. Karina. korea ah yeah, Yes. I love you. Yeah. yeah
00:44:09
Speaker
So... Shout out to Karina Newsom. Yes. I'm gonna name drop all my favorite people but... ah oh Yeah, so that was something I had just kind of happened upon and there were like societies that were trying to appeal to our field about how we are having, let's just say, you know, on the kind of smaller scale, an effect on our local environment. you know, and then obviously you can you you can work it into the more um societal things by like just how does the like what communities are you launching rockets in, you know, because that affects their quality of life too. And typically, you know, and I won't say this happens now, but typically, if there are black communities, we tend to get the short end of the stick in a lot of ways, right? And so it's much easier to just plant very disruptive things in black communities because or so historically nobody cares. and um And so it just got me thinking, and it just got all the gears turning like, huh, you know, how we affect the local wildlife is not something I'd ever thought about. And I think that's a problem.
00:45:14
Speaker
And so I'm always an advocate of like, how do we make space and space enthusiasts and space scientists alike, more cognizant, more concerned about the implications of our work and the the broader implications of our work. And so um Yeah, I love that question. I believe it should be a question asked at every space conference. um And even the political aspects of things when we talk about space inclusive inclusivity, I get uncomfortable yet again, because we have inextricable ties to defense. And it's like, how do we reconcile that with an inclusive is our inclusive message when we are tying ourselves to defense and companies that are actively harming people that are interested in this field. So,
00:45:59
Speaker
It's a lot, but um it's definitely things I think about. I don't have all the answers. I don't have all the the perfect words to talk about it, but um that is generally how I feel and I think we should all care more. I couldn't agree more. That's why I love this podcast because, I mean, I i really only invite people on here who are willing to talk about all of it. like Let's talk about the science, but let's talk about the context around the science and also how we feel about it. like The scientific method is a process, but and it's a process that requires
00:46:36
Speaker
you know, it requires a pure process so that we can get reliable data that isn't influenced by anything other than the variables present within the realm of the experiment or the, you know, whatever is going on. But we, it's very rare for us to have a space where we can discuss all of the things, right? Like, I was just saying earlier today, there's we can we can do a study on water quality and like assessing the impact of a factory on local water supply, but um but that creates data, sure, on the local water supply and the pollution, but then it's like, okay, what is the broader societal context around that? are Is there legislation being put being passed to protect
00:47:34
Speaker
the the citizens that this is affecting or you know do the citizens even know that this is going on right like there's so much there's so many implications to the work that we do as scientists and the knowledge that we generate through our research um that you know, people people need to know about this. And I do feel like there certainly needs to be more interdisciplinary collaborations. um Like, to your point, people in the space industry collaborating with ecologists to make sure that, like, we are monitoring our
00:48:14
Speaker
environment in protecting the species and the ecosystems that might be impacted by the work that we are doing in our respective fields. Like there' is there's a lot of missed opportunities because of the structure of science is very siloed in many regards. Yeah. um And very rarely do you see people in the social sciences and talking to the people in the hard sciences, let alone like even within the hard sciences, people speaking to each other cross-disciplinary. Like I've been in
00:48:50
Speaker
ah and In biology departments, the cell biologists will only talk to each other versus like, and and the ecologists who study, you know, things that are in nature in the outdoors, they're in their own group and very rarely are there the is there the the cross um interactions. it's and It's not necessarily rare, but it's not necessarily the norm, but I think it should be. like it's i don't I don't know. you know i I need to do research on when this attitude in science evolved, but I think it's fascinating. It's so fascinating. um I was talking in a previous interview about play the fact that um the people who decide like in the government
00:49:39
Speaker
who gets funded here to do research government like by the government there's just this body of people who are so stuck in the past with their thinking and when new ideas come through it's very hard sometimes to get them funded because it it poses a challenge to these old people who, you know, have this authority and if if something is threatening their work and could make their work, like, basically um obsolete, yeah they will put bo like put barriers. right So that that stuff doesn't get funded and that stifles the progress of scientific
Mental health in space industry
00:50:18
Speaker
research. So, like, I say all that to say, there's so much there's so much underlying
00:50:24
Speaker
Just crap. And um I guess bureaucracy is a word. Yeah. A lot of isms going on, you know, and it's it's going to take people like you, Nya, to really use their voice so that we can raise awareness and then signal to other people that, hey, we need to talk about this. yeah Like, and I'm willing to put my foot down and and make my stance known and say, hey, I'm not complicit. Like, here I'm
00:51:02
Speaker
You're still a student, so you can only really do so much. But i I want to say, like, I'm really proud of you in the example that you've been able to set for other people in science in using your voice. And I know that you've struggled with that. And it's been really cool to see you find um a way to do both. Like, it is not what you do is not fucking easy. Like, it's very scary. And i don't I don't want to get you emotional and I'm going to shut up, but like i want to I want to honor that. Like, a that is not easy. And there's there are people who come up to me at like after I give a keynote where I'm at a conference, a lot of the questions that I get are about Raven.
00:51:49
Speaker
How did you figure out how to use your voice? Like people who are even senior to me, like who are in C-suites or who are provosts or, you know, they're still at their level trying to figure out how do I stand up for what I believe in? there And those are people who are making decisions that impact us. And so the fact that you're exercising this as a student is amazing. Like, I just want to honor that and I'm going to shut the fuck up. Oh, you got me crying on your podcast, girl. Oh my gosh. I, you just said like, oh, you need to package that into like a monologue. why That was so profound, Raven. And like the whole time you're talking, all I could think about was how proud I am and grateful I am that you are creating a space where this is safe to do. Like you're asking the questions. The fact that you asked that question shows me enough that like you were creating a whole platform and you already have a platform. So this is perfect because it's going to catapult the message where it needs to go. But it's like you're creating the platform for these conversations to happen in like
00:53:01
Speaker
When you think about it, I'm gonna be honest, when I get when i get invited to speak on panels with organizations that should be having these conversations, they would never, they wouldn't touch half of this stuff for the 10 foot pole. And so you were one of the first people that said it, like, we're gonna have to create these spaces ourselves. And you're literally doing that. And so I'm honored and I'm grateful for people like you. And I'm i'm loving to hear that people are coming up to you asking those questions because I think, as a student, obviously, you know, everything's on the line. um But, you know, at the same time... How do I know? Like, is it's like, okay, shoot, we just gonna have to do what we do.
00:53:44
Speaker
But if enough of us do that, which I've been so inspired to see across the nation like these young people standing up for what they believe in, that is what it takes. that We can't wait for permission. We're not going to get it. So you taking the initiative to put something together like this is is like an enzyme. You know enzymes? It's kidss it's a catalyst.
00:54:11
Speaker
Exactly. So I'm honored and I'm grateful that I have a safe place to say this without Oh, I mean, God knows where this is gonna go. Of course, not the confetti yet. That was cute. That was adorable. That is too cute. Can I do that? Foul not the
00:54:38
Speaker
Are you on a Mac? and I'm not. I'm not. Oh, not to ah the Apple supremacy.
00:54:50
Speaker
Funny. Hilarious. Hilarious. Hilarious. It's okay. we go I'm gonna have my little Android version but someday. ah oh But I say all that. No comment. Oh my god. Anyways, I say all that to honor you because one, thank you for having me and two, like... Like that this is what matters and like this is what gets me like who especially when you talk about the interdisciplinary stuff because yes, why aren't we talking and ah The one person that is getting this right and I wish um Or I'm praying from the day that it's like super mainstream is made dr Mae jemisin with the hundred-year starship because she has
00:55:34
Speaker
or her goal or mission with that is to engage all of the disciplines so that we can have basically a civilization that can, you know, be interstellar. And I mean, that's incredible. But the implications of what she's doing is so relevant to right now. And we do not have an inner, you know, we're not interstellar species yet. So, um she's one of the people getting it right and um i'm I'm excited for that to continue to mature and be um one day hopefully become mainstream people talk about it and understand that that's the philosophy we should all take in our approach to science collaboration because what is the point? So, we're you just casually were like, yeah, we're not an interstellar safety Scott. Yeah, good point. So, like,
00:56:19
Speaker
It's wet. It's wet. Not wet. Great. like to a Is that just the casual thing that we just throw around in the in the field of ruckus? It's like, yeah, we're just not an ill interstellar species yet, but like we're getting ready for that. and like yeah That's the goal. Doctor made jemisons on it. Great. She's got it. Yeah, I mean, I won't say I mean, okay, that's a good point. I have not thrown that out before as casually but... Oh, okay. Of course, the goal is for us to explore beyond not just our, what do you call it, gravitational pull of Earth. Like, we're trying to go to different celestial bodies, to different solar systems eventually. At least that's my goal. I would like for us to go far.
00:57:13
Speaker
and learn and bring it back and all that good stuff like I'm not trying to abandon Earth. Let it be clear. Let me be clear. I love me some Earth too. But of course, I do want us to evolve. I feel like that's our next state of evolution for sure. It's just like pushing past the boundaries of what we know. And I mean, I don't know, electric propulsion. It's a very good primary propulsion system for deep space long duration missions. And so um it's almost something I'm I'm excited about. and want to do. Damn. And see for our species for sure. Oh, okay. So does that mean that you're gonna apply for the astronaut candidate, um, and being the astronaut candidate pool? Yes ma'am. You already know. I am going to try and that's, um, maybe we can get into that. I don't know. Um, with regard to- We can get into whatever you want to get into. Okay. Well- This is your platform now. ah
00:58:13
Speaker
Too much pressure. Well, I guess that's a good segue, I guess, into the book that has just been published called Profiles and Mental Health Courage by um Patrick J. Kennedy, which is John F. Kennedy's nephew and Stephen breed or Fried. I'm sorry. Stephen, I messed that up. but He profiled like a bunch of different people and their mental health journeys and I was part of that and a big component of that was me talking about my fear of seeking out mental health services because of how stigmatized it is in anything pertaining to flight which would be obviously pilots, but it is also relevant in the astronaut conversation.
00:58:56
Speaker
And so I do genuinely worry about my chances now, but I'm obviously still going to try. But I have been very candid about my mental health. um experiences and so um that's something I'm hoping changes that I'm sure it will there's a lot of legislation happening and this book is a part of Patrick's um goal to further de-signitize and push legislation forward to increase mental health resources across the nation but um that is that's also near and dear to my heart too that's a conversation that I think should also be you know
00:59:30
Speaker
more ubiquitous. Yeah, I think about that. Like I've seen, i've you know, bore witness to some of your struggles with mental health and I as well struggle with mental health and it's a very, it's a historically stigmatized um area and you know, even understanding the implications of you being open about your mental health struggles has encouraged me to be open about mine because I do feel like across the board, we need to normalize these conversations. And I think a lot of people hide things um just to escape judgment, but that doesn't help
01:00:19
Speaker
to move the culture forward. we We can only move the culture forward based on things that we see and know. And if we hide stuff, yeah then we're not actually able to address he the actual needs of the people that are in our society. And so, you know, if if more people are transparent about their experience, we can drive change because it's not going to be this hidden aspect anymore. Like it's, you know, I would love if, shit, if the president would be open about their struggles with depression. I can't imagine that there has been, there hasn't been a president that struggled with depression. Imagine all they have to deal with and like the fact that we've never heard about it.
01:01:05
Speaker
ever. Like, all of these people who who hold high ranking offices who are potentially serving in the military. Like, you can't tell me that they haven't, you know, struggled with anything. So... Right. What we doing? What we doing? Mental health is health. mental health is help and I think emphasizing like how to take care of that because I think the impression it's stigmatized because people don't it's really the help part fair that people are ashamed of whether it's going to a therapist or taking medication like that's the part that I feel like is stigmatized either people
01:01:46
Speaker
don't want to help, yeah or they think that it's not a part of your overall health. And how do you imagine, um like, what support would you call for? Are you calling for in being a part of this movement yeah for potential astronauts? Like, what would you like to see? That's such a great thank you for that question, because um I think you hit the nail on the head is to help. And who that is the part that it is I wouldn't say criminalized but that works against you in certain respects. Like I remember vividly, I went to Embaruto Aeronautical University which is a flight school and I had friends that would not go to the therapist because they were afraid of getting grounded.
01:02:34
Speaker
And my thing is don't penalize people for seeking help. I'm going to the therapist, I'm dealing with a very natural human reaction to something that is distressing. Don't penalize me for doing the right thing which is getting help. That should be looked that should be a positive thing. So, in regards to how drastic it is, now I understand there are definitely going to be things that just preclude you from certain jobs. For example, you know, that's just gonna be how it is for certain jobs. but I don't think.
01:03:05
Speaker
it should be generalized under this whole umbrella of like, okay, you're not fit to do this because you need help with this. I think that is the major mindset change and you said it perfectly. Like it's not the actual illness that stigmatized, but it's the getting help. And it has it has discouraged me for years. And I talk about that in the book a lot, like how I'd get prescribed anti-depresses and just ghost my psychiatrist. I've done it multiple, I was like, okay, no, we gotta go. we're gonna go it until i had no choice so i still had to do it
01:03:41
Speaker
But now I'm um years later when I probably could have been living a better quality of life. and And I'm not saying I'm super pro-medication. I'm pro whatever you need, you know? Yeah. And, you know, you don't know what you need until you ask. And so um it's it's that it's that attitude that like seeking help should not be should not be a penalty. And I think that honestly, because we haven't done like super long distance human space flight. Yeah. um We don't even know the long-term implications of what that means to the people on those flights.
01:04:18
Speaker
like Just because you didn't struggle with anxiety and depression on Earth, yeah doesn't mean you not gonna struggle with it on Mars. Or on your way to Mars. like you That is a really foolish thought.
Mental health considerations for space travel
01:04:35
Speaker
And so if we don't prepare for that, what the fuck are we doing? like how How are you going to send a bunch of professionals out into the middle of space and beyond well farther than we've ever than humans have ever been and not have no fucking Lexapro on the fucking shit. At least an emergency stash, you know what I'm saying? An emergency stash.
01:05:02
Speaker
And why, why wouldn't people who have already been through those mental trials this said on Earth, why wouldn't they actually be the most qualified yeah good point to go to a different planet and and encounter those mental, like, You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, why wouldn't you encounter why wouldn't you actually opt in to choose people who have already been stabilized from like mental trauma or like
01:05:38
Speaker
You don't have proven that. I don't think people realize this. By the time you get to the point where you need psych meds yeah and stuff and like interventions, you've already thugged it out quite a bit. Say that. So on top of that, like raw dogging life, basically, Untheri- Untheri- Therapize or whatever un unmedicated. So you've got that experience and then boom I sought help and I've balanced like I have the chemical formula to balance myself. Right.
01:06:17
Speaker
How are you gonna tell me I'm not fit for space travel? Like, p especially for a long distance space travel or anything that is just mentally taxing, like I've already been through it all. exactly I've already been through the psych ward. I've already lost my mind. Right. Literally. Thank you. So... You ate... You ate... Does it not make sense? I was waiting for you at the door. No, literally, like that is such a profound thing. And it's nothing I've heard before. And like you, you put that into perfect words. Like, why not? And I ain't even trying. Don't fucking put me in no spaceship. I mean, I got real anxiety problems.
01:06:58
Speaker
yeah I'm sorry. Let the rec crew to show. I don't even go on airplanes, but I'm just saying ray for y'all who want to fly. Yeah. Okay. Like, that does not make sense to me. It doesn't. So, boom. You said it. At that point, that's an address to the powers that be. What are we doing, friends? Like...
01:07:24
Speaker
And don't be mad at me because the world is a mess and I'm trying to cope. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like imagine a bunch of people who have never had a mental breakdown before going through a mental breakdown for the first time on Mars. In space. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. And there's and there are no prescription medical. There is no there's no prescription medical interventions available or therapists around or any type of like pre-organized support system right for mental health. Like, what the fuck? What to do? That's that's just going to exacerbate problems. Like, I never even thought about that. Like, you really are. You've blown my mind because that's exactly right. Like, that that should be enough.
01:08:09
Speaker
to change the culture right there because you're treating mental illness as a one-off or like a only a few percent like no, we're all we're all dealing with something, it's a spectrum but we're all dealing with some end of that spectrum and so you put somebody that's on the lower end say on earth but an extremely high pressure you know, situation how What then? You know what I'm saying? and And I could be very ignorant. um I don't know how, of course I know very little about astronaut training. I know what I researched, which is like, okay, two years and 238 talent and you're learning certain things. um But to my knowledge, considering how stigmatized just getting the help is and how I've been dissuaded from going on antidepressants because I want to be an astronaut, um that tells me that
01:08:59
Speaker
whatever they are doing, it's setting somewhat of a very unrealistic standard. And those who meet them, great for you, it's incredible. But the further we push boundaries and the further the world also goes to whatever it's going through right now, which would stress anybody out, um how are we going to relax or just bolster the resources for people in these positions at least because to say they're not going to go through it is just it's going to be patently false. They're going to go through something. It's going to be emotionally taxing. It has to be. It's no one's done this before. So, you said it all. Do you know if there are like space therapists, like what ah what kind of mental health support do astronauts actually have? I have you no idea.
01:09:49
Speaker
They don't talk about that. That's an issue. Yeah. Because if they have the sign up, and I honestly haven't looked at it because again, I don't I don't even I'm a ground traveler through and through. Terrestrial being. that Very terrestrial. You need to get a shirt that says that, please. Very terrestrial. Listen. Yeah. I touch grass all day. Right. Okay. Grounded.
01:10:20
Speaker
Which is crazy because I'm named after a bird, you know? That's so true. You still take flight in your own way. I eat chicken wings. That's how I make up for it. I eat lots of wings. But they don't talk about it. Like, i I do and I haven't looked this up. This is the point I was trying to make. Like, I hear about, oh, like, there's a call for people who want to sign up to go to Mars. And like, I hear about these things. But like, my main concern is what protections are there for us like as people who are volunteering to do this job um or you know signing up to be employed or whatever like what how are you gonna take care of the brain because I know I could do the science or I know I can fly the plane or I know I can you know do the thing be the doctor but what about me the human like how are you taking care of my brain
01:11:16
Speaker
Do you feel like people don't recognize the mind is a part of the brain, which is a part of the body? That's a great question. I think... Ooh, you know, I don't know the way to say this. I'm not, this is, this is ah what do you call, I don't have the range, but, um cause this ain't my lane. But what I do feel like is, and we see this with how like medicine, the stigma against women and even black people in medicine, how like, you know, for they're still working off the system where they think black people will have higher pain tolerance or, you know, they think women a lot, they,
01:11:51
Speaker
Label women as hypochondriacs when it's actually stuff they're really dealing with because, oh, we're more emotional. I think that's the problem. Like the emotional aspect of the brain, which is a very real thing, like it's not pseudoscience, like it's very proven that we're emotional. I think those things are taken less seriously. um I believe it's changing. The tide has changed a lot. I mean, therapy obviously has been has been working to be or we as a community have de-signatized therapy I think or we're we're getting there and it's working very well. But I think as it pertains to like the more harder science thingies in neurology or neuroscience, I think when it comes to the emotional, the less understood aspects of things,
01:12:34
Speaker
that it's kind of moved to the wayside and and they think it's a matter of like will and self-determination when people are dealing with like very chemical imbalances. And that's huge because, I mean, how often do they say, oh, I have depression. Well, go for a walk. Yes, it may help. But you don't think I tried that? Or, you know, you don't think I thought about that? ah Or you don't think I want to, but I just can't?
Closing thoughts and listener engagement
01:13:00
Speaker
You know, I think that's where the nuance comes in and that's where things become weird, for lack of a better word. Does that answer your question? I feel like I went everywhere.
01:13:13
Speaker
Yeah, no, i I, yes. And the, and the listeners will also and unpack all of this in their own special way. Thank you. Like this, this was, we touched so many topics in this discussion. Like we we broke down the science. We got deep, deep into the science. We got deep, deep, deep into the socials. And that's really what this is all about. And like a lot of scientists are like this, but we just never have the space to talk about both things. And um I'm really glad that we were able to do that today. So he um is there anything that we didn't get to talk about that you would like to talk about? I don't think so. You you navigated this. for You drove this perfectly. I feel like I talked about I'm most passionate about. I forgot we were on the podcast, honestly. I'm just like, oh yeah, wait. I love that. I'm glad I was watching my mouth. Thank you, Jesus. But no, you're good. Like, i'm I'm really glad you feel that way. Like, it's, I don't know. I feel this way on every episode, but.
01:14:19
Speaker
everyone just has such amazing perspectives to learn about and draw from. And I'm excited to, I'm excited to see what but everyone else has to say. um I know I'm going to have you on here again. So I'm going to ask the audience if you're listening or watching Leave me a comment, like comment on my stuff. but um I want to know if you have any questions for Naya, the rocket scientist, the aerospace engineer. and um Any questions about rocket science or anything that we talked about, about the social context around space and the space industry?
01:15:01
Speaker
um and the astronaut profession, please um would love to hear you and hear from you and read your questions. And next time that we have Nya on, I'll make sure that we answer those. But yeah, where can people find you? Sure. um So, I'm on Instagram. ah X formerly known as Twitter. I haven't gotten used to that. I know. TikTok and it's all at Astrania. I think Instagram is like Astrania underscore, but Astrania, you should find me most places. Perfection. um And let's see, is there anything, any like parting words?
01:15:42
Speaker
um for our audience. I think what you said about finding your voice was especially profound. And I think we hit something that could be like a very golden nugget about like, you know, creating the field and the spaces and the communities we want to create. And that, you know, we have more power than we think. So Yeah, follow Dr. Baxter's lead and use that voice because it matters. You freaking matter. I don't know how else to say that but like your voice matters. You are not invalid because you want to see a more inclusive space field or because you're from this background and you are historically excluded, like you're just not invalid. Use your voice, we need it.
01:16:26
Speaker
And you never know who's listening and watching. So yeah, I mean, and I think a lot of people don't realize the power of using your voice and just not being afraid. um Is that. people have no choice but to hear you like when if they find you they may not agree with you they may not even understand what you're talking about or they could completely understand and it could resonate with them but everyone has heard your voice and you don't know what the impact is of that until you use your voice
01:16:59
Speaker
Um, and that is the only reason why I had this platform. And it's not all about me. Like, it's really about the people who have supported me along the way. Um, people who have worked in HR who have, you know, sent me opportunities that resonated with things that they've heard me talk about and like things that they felt like would be impactful and help me on my mission to make science inclusive or people who oversee grant opportunities or people who run different organizations or in politics. You just never know um who who is going to be on your team um and they won't know that to support you if you don't use your voice.
01:17:45
Speaker
so Um, you know, to that note, I think everyone who has supported me and Naya, because we're both science communicators and, um, you know, I just ask that you all just continue to share and share our stuff and um amplify our voices because we really do. um our best I can and I can vouch for Nya too like I think she and I both work really hard to to really maximize our potential in this field whether it's through our work as scientists but like also our social impact in um using our platforms that we've been blessed to have to advance society um so yeah like with that being said he so many good nuggets so many good nuggets
01:18:34
Speaker
Thank you for listening! Naya's gonna be back on again. And, um, yeah! We will see you soon! Yes! Bye! Thank you!