Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
06: Dolphin Shenanigans with Dr. Heather Spence
973 Plays4 months ago
This episode is going to blow your mind. Learn about all things dolphins, music, and dolphin music with Dr. Heather Spence on my podcast!
Recommended
Transcript
Career Realities in Marine Biology
00:00:00
Speaker
There are so many different paths that you can be. For example, a marine biologist, like most people that I know who are marine biologists do not have the job title marine biologist. And I think that people who are like advising people up about careers get a little bit put off by the fact it's like there's very few jobs in marine biology.
00:00:41
Speaker
I know you had a chance to speak with Autumn, who is the manager of the podcast and um she's amazing. She was so excited that you were up for this. I was so excited. This podcast is like all about the intersections of science and practice, but also the life of being a scientist, but also like how science intersects with our own lives yeah as just people and humans and how we understand the world around us.
Science, Art, and Accessibility
00:01:11
Speaker
So yeah, I'm ah i'm a molecular biologist and um science communicator, and I've developed a platform breaking down complex science and making it accessible. I use fashion to communicate science. I use music just like you using music to communicate science. I make science hip-hop and rap songs that have went completely and insanely viral that I'm super proud of.
00:01:35
Speaker
Probably what I love the most is just the community aspect of what I do and drawing in as many people as possible into the science field. And I like to tell people my job is to make the biggest science party on the planet. yeah And my job is just like to be a host and make sure that you feel welcome. Science is for everyone. Exactly. And so like it's just super rewarding doing stuff like this to help people realize that. And also, it's fun to do this as from my perspective
Meet Heather Spence: Musician and Marine Biologist
00:02:04
Speaker
as a scientist. like I'm not very rarely on the show where we actually talk about my area of expertise. I'm all about diving into the stuff that I have no idea about. And so you were recommended by your husband who follows me. and And I was like, I need someone who can talk about dolphin sex. like
00:02:22
Speaker
all about it. And he was like, wait, my wife. So we looked you up and I was like, yes. I was like, every day, like up until the day that you at autumn finally spoke, I was like, did you talk to Heather yet? When are you talking to Heather? could barely contain my excitement because when I realized that you not only were a dolphin expert, but like you make marine music, my mind was just like, I must know this person. So thank you so much. I'm like, I'm trying not to jump out of my chair. I have ADHD really bad and like a hyperactivity. So I'm just like, you
00:03:00
Speaker
But we've had a recurring theme throughout the episodes of the show, trying to answer questions about dolphins. They keep coming up. It just keeps coming up. Dolphins. We were talking about insects. Somehow we got back to dolphins. we We're talking about birds. Then we came back to dolphins. And I'm like, dude, OK. And so the question really came to be. What are dolphins' sexual behaviors? um I learned from another marine scientist that dolphins are freaky, that dolphins are, you know, the that they masturbate. I had no idea. That blew my mind. um That they're, like, polygamous. So those are the types of questions that we're going to answer and more, like, but I, first and foremost, I would love for you to introduce yourself to our audience, like,
00:03:46
Speaker
Tell us who you are. What do you do? How did you get to be in this field? And yeah, things that we need to know about you to get this party started. Well, I'm Heather Spence. I am a marine biologist and a musician. And it was actually the music part that led me to the marine biology part. So um I've always been interested in a lot of different things. And I i pride myself on having followed an academic and career path where I actually get to keep doing all of the things. And I love to tell people it's like, and yes, there are lots of there's lots of people telling me, no, don't do that along the way. But I guess I was a little bit stubborn. um And I like to be a proponent for those of you out there who want to do all the things you can do all the things.
00:04:33
Speaker
still anybody tell you no, if that's what you want to do. Yeah, so super into music, I played the cello and the piano and I really enjoyed kind of figuring out how music worked. And so really enjoy feeling like, okay, here's something like, wow, that really makes me feel a certain way. Why? How do I recreate that? Can I like, okay, well, let me, let me, let me play that out. Okay. Well, what if I change this? Do I still feel that way? Do I feel a different way? So it was that kind of thing that kind of got me into composing. So I loved all that stuff. Um, and science was cool too. And, but I went to, I went to college on a music scholarship, but the music scholarship didn't require me to major in music. So I did all of this music stuff.
00:05:18
Speaker
But I also really wanted to understand, like, how does sound work? And so I did i took a lot of science classes and I took biology and physics and learned about, you know, animals. And ultimately it was actually my my senior year, I was working on my senior project.
Integrating Passions: Heather's Educational Journey
00:05:35
Speaker
And that was, that was the moment when I, I did my senior project in marine biology. And that was the moment, that was the aha moment. It was like, oh, underwater sound, sound travels so well underwater. It's absolutely central for marine organisms. This is great. I can combine my passions and go to the beach. My life's all figured out.
00:05:59
Speaker
ah That's real. I love that. Wait, so I heard that you had an initial interest that's music and still is. Yeah. So tell me again, like, where did the marine aspect really come in? Like, would you say that you had an equal passion for music as you did for marine science or I guess, when did that come into play? I mean, people hear marine biologists and sort of like, you think, okay, marine biologists, you definitely like, as a kid, we're like, all I want to do with my my life is study dolphins.
00:06:30
Speaker
And there are many people like that, and you should go do it, by the way, don't let anybody tell you no. Okay, it's not that I didn't like dolphins, like like they were cool and all, but I was more like the kid who was like looking at, you know, the little bugs on the sidewalk and I would like stare at, I think I would stare at a crab going around in circles for like three hours. i um You know, I just like thought, you know, like I like the environment and animals are so interesting, but I hadn't really thought about that as like, oh, this is going to be my life. It was just kind of following what I found interesting. I absolutely love that. I could totally relate and keep going. This is so cool. see now I want to ask you questions. Go ahead. Yeah, let's do it. Go ahead. But what did you know that like you wanted to study like things that you couldn't see? Ooh, that's a great question, because I honestly started my journey not wanting to study things I couldn't see. I was actually very irritated by that. um but So I started out wanting to be an astronaut, but then I went to space camp and found out I was afraid of heights. Oh. OK. Yeah.
00:07:44
Speaker
But then at space camp, they told you about all the other careers that like help astronauts go to space. And so like there's geologists and physicists and, you know, communications people and all of this stuff. And I said, okay, well, what about Like by that time, Al Gore was like doing the Inconvenient Truth thing. It was like early 2000s. I was like, well, that sounds kind of important, right? Maybe I should do something about that, like climate change. yeah So I decided to go into environmental studies, failed out of school. My first one year I was 16 and partying and I had no business being away from home, but you I learned about the human side, which is so important.
00:08:24
Speaker
social skills were on 10, 20, if you will, you know. So, but when I went to go back to school, cause I had to go to community college and then re-enroll somewhere close to home, cause my mom was like, you're never leaving again. The school I went to didn't have environmental science. And so I'm like, well, great, what do I do with my life? I majored in biology, which was the closest thing I could get. Genetics was a required course and I loathed it, did not want to do it. But the minute- Punnett Squares? Oh, no. I wasn't into it. All right. All right. OK. Well, OK. Punnett Squares? No. But when like I had a really great professor, Dr. Gregory Wadsworth, amazing genetics professor, he kind of spoke of genetics as a language. And once I realized that it was a language that we all speak, even like frogs speak it, plants speak it, bacteria, people, dogs.
00:09:21
Speaker
Like, it's all something that our bodies can can understand, but we're all so different. I was like, yeah, I like that. yeah And so I went down that rabbit hole. Long story, but I tried to make it short. nice yeah yeah i also love that we have this like i'm all about like the non-standard like academic and career paths because i feel like especially the sciences there's so many people out there like telling you like this is the way you have to do it i like no it isn't like maybe it might be like i'm not saying don't do it that way if you want to but there's lots of ways you can do it okay yeah
00:10:00
Speaker
Absolutely. That's going to be a key message of this podcast is go with the flow. Oh my gosh. That's so on brand for this Marine episode. going with the flow Whatever floats your boat. Yes.
00:10:15
Speaker
But yeah, I ended up using music as a vessel to share
Music as Science Communication
00:10:19
Speaker
science and communicate it because when I was in high school, I had a bully who wanted to fight me and like fist fight me, like take me down. And I was like, I don't really do that, but I will make a diss track. And so I made a diss track against my high school bully, put it on my Myspace. And if you can remember Myspace, you could put your... Oh yeah, totally had a Myspace, yeah. yeah Yeah. And we could put whatever song we wanted on the page and it would play. And so I put my diss track as my MySpace page song and it went viral across the school. I almost got suspended by the principal and basically I took my bully down with the diss track in high school. And then I realized I was like, dang, music is really powerful, right? Like this yeah person wants to beat me up. It's amazing.
00:11:03
Speaker
They wanted to beat me up behind CVS Pharmacy across the street. and I was like, well, in a diss track saved my life. Love that. Right? So I said, why not tie science in with that? like there's Science has really important messages that everyone needs um to know. And yeah mean they won't listen to us up on the soapbox, so but they'll they'll shake their butt to some trap music. Yes. If I throw some science facts in there, great. It's a win. Total win. So, yeah, that's what that's what we do. um but Back to you. Back to you. I love the parallels. We have so much. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We should definitely do like a musical collaboration.
00:11:46
Speaker
100%. I listened to your music. It's freaking awesome. Like it's good shit. Yeah. Like I would study to that. I would, I would write papers to your music. It's, it's really freaking cool. I telling you, I was like shift shaking, shivering with excitement. I could not wait. oh yeah Um, but what do you do now? Like what you're, you're a ball of talent, right? You're a scientist, you're a musician, like, Who is capable so of taking all that talent and giving you a career? Like, what did you do? I just kind of did what I wanted, right? And so then if what I wanted didn't exist, which it usually didn't, then I just kind of had to make it happen.
00:12:35
Speaker
And that's, I think that's the thing, right? So if I wanted to pursue all of, I want to integrate all of the things, but sometimes the structures that we have in academia and in jobs don't necessarily let you integrate all the things they like. You're crazy. So I do kind of do this thing where depending on the situation, I'll introduce myself like, Oh, I'm a marine biologist. Like. Oh, I play the cello or whatever, but really I don't put those things in the different compartments in my head. I'm just me. I have these things that I do for science. If I'm doing underwater recordings and listening to that, I don't turn off my musician ear training. I've been writing music, like the things that I understand about how sounds work scientifically inform how I'm writing the music. So it just all kind of works.
00:13:25
Speaker
together.
Underwater Acoustics: Communication and Misconceptions
00:13:28
Speaker
Tell us about Sound Underwater. There was a class that I really wish I took when I was in college and it was called the Physics of Sound. And it was actually a required course for those who are majoring in like sound audio engineering and production. Yeah. And but it was in physics department. So I always wondered, you know, sounds are waves. I know that decibels. I know what decibels are. That's really all I got. I know that sound needs matter to go through. That's why there's no sound in space. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's an empty vacuum. I think you just.
00:14:04
Speaker
describe it. I would say I was still mind blown. I went to a marine science conference last November. I learned that coral reefs make a lot of noise. And I said, well, what do you mean by that? And so I pulled up the video on YouTube and it's like bubbling and like clicking and stuff. Can you hear it with your ears or do you need a microphone? And so I think you've gotten like really at something very interesting here, which is that you can hear it with just your ears, but Think about how people go and experience the underwater environment, okay? You might be snorkeling. Then you've got your ears, like, right at the level of the water. You're mostly hearing, like, the air and, like, the water slapping against your ears. Or you're going scuba diving. What do you hear when you're scuba diving?
00:14:49
Speaker
You're hearing your own bubbly breathing and those are the people around you. So it's kind of hard to focus on the underwater sounds and just listening to them. Like it's important to continue to breathe. Right? like That's a pretty major principle in scuba diving is keep breathing. Fun fact, breathing is important. Yes. it's ah ah But now free divers sometimes like get more of a chance to listen. and Yeah, the person that told me this was a free diver. Yeah. So you can also just stick your head underwater and just listen, eventually breathe. You can hear these sounds just with your ears underwater. Our ears are not really adapted to underwater sounds, but you can still hear things just fine. Figuring out where the sounds are coming from can be difficult because sound travels faster ah in water than it does in air.
00:15:40
Speaker
So that's a density thing. Some ways have to travel through something. Sound isn't a ball that like comes out of my mouth and smacks you in the ear, right? It's a wave of pressure. The little molecules of air and water aren't the things that are traveling, right? It's how compacted they are together and that compactness or how far apart they are. That's what's traveling. That pressure wave will travel faster in something denser than something that's less dense. So water denser than air. travels faster in water. And when you also think about the underwater environment, you know, visibility underwater, not that great generally, right? Light doesn't penetrate all that deep, like visibility can be kind of tough, but sound is traveling so well. And so it's just so amazing how these underwater ecosystems have sound as the central way that they operate and connect.
00:16:38
Speaker
So do those deep sea creatures make sounds? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And it's also cool. For every sound that we kind of like know where it comes from, there's probably a gazillion of the sounds that we're like, we have no idea what this is and where it came from. We know some of the main contributors. So like in coral reefs, it's really kind of all about the snapping shrimp. So you mentioned- I'm googling what this looks like. Oh, oh they're so cute. They're about the size of your pinky finger, the little shrimp, and they have a big claw and a little claw. Look at those things. Your first thought wasn't cute.
00:17:26
Speaker
It is cute, but it's like been lifting weights heavy on one side. Like yeah it's only been right on day for like five weeks. They're a little symmetrical. I definitely see the appeal and I see a very cute cartoon of one that makes me really want to be a friend. See, see, there we go. Right. So they're yeah so they are cute. So the big that big claw is actually really important for the that's how they make their sound. So they It's really cool. It's a claw, so they shut it really, really fast. So fast that they create a vacuum bubble in the water and the sound comes when the bubble bursts. Yeah.
00:18:08
Speaker
so they're not like snapping their fingers. They're creating this vacuum bubble in the water that bursts. And that's what makes this popping sound. And so when you have a whole lot of them, they make this sound that together is like this crackling. Some people say so it sounds like something frying in a pan or like static. It's quite loud. It's so loud that in some places you can actually hear it above the water, but people usually don't, you You know, people who have gone snorkeling or whatever, they've probably heard this sound, but they didn't know what they were hearing. Shallow waters worldwide got these little little snapping shrimp there popping up a storm. Wow. So they're pretty universal. Reasonably warmish waters. Would you say there's a difference between freshwater and seawater sounds?
00:18:58
Speaker
So, so each kind of habitat's going to have its own kind of, you know, soundscape signature, depending on the critters that are there. What are you hearing when you're hearing an underwater soundscape? Well, you've got the animals and some of that is going to be them producing sounds with some part of their body to communicate or whatever. Then you also have other kinds of things like you might hear sounds of them eating. By the way, manatees eating. kind of a funny sound. It's just like, really? What does it sound like? It's just big crunch thing.
00:19:34
Speaker
so underwater. I'm just like remembering like listening to some manatees like chowing down it's like very loud but like para fish like people talk about like para fish like dip you know when they're nibbling like that makes like a crunching sound stuff like that but also like movements could make a sound and then you also expand to other things so there are physical things that you can hear as well so depending on where you are in the water column like you know at the surface you might hear some of the slapping of the water you might hear rain you know on the surface like that sound you can hear at some deeper depths as well so you can hear kind of like things about the weather patterns and other things like that and then you also have some things which are
00:20:15
Speaker
artifacts of the recording process. If there's a lot of current in the water, you'll get that sound as well, unless you shield it like in in air. And also sometimes critters are curious about microphones underwater and they want to come up and check it out and bump into it and stuff. So you might hear some of that as well. You said that there there are animals that communicate via sound underwater. So what animals are doing that? I know from Finding Nemo, definitely whales. But not just whales, right? OK. So I mean, if you think about any animal that needs that its survival depends on another animal, like there's going to be some kind of communication there.
00:21:04
Speaker
how well we understand it, that's another thing. I mean, I think part of why we're so all about the dolphins and the whales is because they have a lot of similarities to us and their socialness and the types of sounds that they're producing that we're like, okay, we kind of get that. How are shrimp communicating with each other? That feels a little more alien. They are communicating with each other, but how exactly that's happening is a little more mysterious because we have trouble relating to that. Fish communication is a huge thing. ah There's a lot of really interesting stuff on fishes and how they communicate. And I will have to say, you know, sex is a huge driver of communication, right? It's like, if you want to get it on and you want to let them, you know, somebody know, usually it's the males who want to let the females know like, hey, I'm over here, I'm horny.
00:22:01
Speaker
Then you're gonna make some kind of sound to let the ladies know you're available. Even the fish? Oh, absolutely. Oh, totally the fish. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like there's this fish, the midshipman fish. It's the, they make this maiden call. It is so loud that like it bothers like coastal residents. And they're like, what is this hornet? It's like, what is this fish called? It's just some horny fish. What the heck? What's the name of the fish? Midshipman? Midshipman fish. Look at its face. ah Oh my gosh. What does it sound like? Things had a huge mouth. I mean, it's loud and
00:22:53
Speaker
To us, maybe not all that tuneful or pleasant, but oh the lady fish must like it or they wouldn't do it. But I mean, yeah, they guess they if evolution has decided that that's going to be the thing. So it's just going to be the thing. I mean, oh, my gosh, it says that they can bury themselves in sand or mud during the day. Oh, well, I guess if they're just right on the water, then making all that noise, that makes sense. Yeah. OK.
00:23:35
Speaker
Mating calls, big deal. So question, like it, to my knowledge, fish, they lay the eggs, right? The reproduction is happening outside. Yeah. So, but that is not, just it's not passive. It's active. So is it? Yeah. Okay, so they're not just like releasing eggs and then sperm and they just happened to meet like like plant pollination or something. It's targeted, right? So like they choose it. Well, there's a whole variety of wait ways that fish have their sexual practices. I think something that'll illustrate it a little bit, they're not random. So they are kind of picking who's, you know, the lady fish is like, okay, who's going to fertilize my, there are some really interesting
00:24:24
Speaker
examples out there of even like like the trickery in the males and so like there's some males that will pretend to be females so that the other male doesn't get all jealous and then they just like sneak in and are like, okay.
00:24:40
Speaker
Yeah. How do you pretend to be a female? How? Are they marked differently or is it behavior? It's behavior but also like life stage so I'd have to go back and check. I'm trying to remember there's this one species I think when they're younger they pretend to be the female and then when they're older they're more established they can actually compete as a male. That's really interesting. I have a question about the eggs okay so like in humans we ovulate Do fish ovulate? Are they ovulating all the time? Or do they have like storage of eggs and they just release it when they want to have sex? So that's interesting. I think that they just... I mean, it's kind of like any other egg thing, right? It's like you make all the eggs and then you do it all at once.
00:25:38
Speaker
because Like with us, we're more about like, we're going to have like one or two babies, right? At a time. And then we just put all of our resources into them. All our resources. Yes. But with this, it's more of like a numbers game, right? And so it's still on a cycle, but you know, there, there's a lot more of them because they're like, kind of like, all right, well,
00:26:09
Speaker
A lot of you aren't going to make it. So we're going to make a lot of you and hopefully some of you get to go on and have your own lovely get to be serenaded by some other handsome fish. Amazing. And then in the case of dolphins, which are mammals, yes I think a lot of people forget that. And even me, it's hard for me to look at a dolphin and be like, one of us, one of us, but like, but yeah, like one of us, yeah um, we'll get tell about dollarss to be fair, okay like it is kind of ridiculous. It's like you breathe air and you live underwater. And we think dolphins are smart.
00:26:53
Speaker
like whether you do it That seems kind of ridiculous, but okay, go on, go on. one Just saying. Do you have hot takes on dolphins? Like, first of all, dolphins as mammals means that they have First of all, what's a
Dolphin Anatomy and Behavior
00:27:10
Speaker
mammal? Let's just start from the basic. You want to go and you want to go into the boobs thing. We can do that. I mean, sure. Yeah. Like, ba you know, mammals, mammals, right? Like they got like the mammaries thing going on. Right. So, yeah. So they I think I think that the key like, the you know, you learn all the other stuff like, oh, they have hair and like warm blooded and that stuff is like, yes. But the the milk thing is
00:27:38
Speaker
Pretty, pretty central to the mammals. Yes. And dolphins have that. Yes, they do have the nipples.
00:27:49
Speaker
Yeah. So i'll make this let's do a quick overview of the dolphin anatomy. So they're very streamlined animals, because as noted, despite the ridiculousness, mammals breathe in the air. living underwater, kind of silly, but they're very streamlined for their underwater living. They don't really want to have big bosoms hanging out and damaging their airflow. Same for the guys. They don't really want their junk hanging out and getting in the way of them being able to swim fast. So they have them all neatly tucked up inside. They have these slits. Okay. Think about, imagine a dolphin.
00:28:30
Speaker
And imagine, okay, think about their body, all right? And then think about where you might imagine that they're like gentlemen and lady parts might be. That's where they are. Now, the boobs are actually moved into that same region. So they don't have the boobs up top, they have them down below. by their vagina. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But, you know, it's, it's sort of practical for them to have all their stuff there in a little slit. So the males, they have their like penis slit and then they have their anus slit, like right after it. Totally forgot about that. Yeah. hi i mean yeah yeah So, and then for the females, they have just like one genital slit and then they have like their boob slits on the sides of that.
00:29:23
Speaker
So like if you want to look at a dolphin and you want to know if it's a boy or girl, you look, does it have like a long slit and two slits on the sides? Then that's a girl. And if it has like an exclamation mark kind of looking slit pattern, then it's a boy.
00:29:40
Speaker
And that's the only way you'd really be able to tell from just looking at a dolphin in the water. ah It's the most reliable. Great. Oh. If we ever get a hold of a dolphin, we'll report back. If you ever see the dolphin and you want to know, you kind of look ah yeah just kind of look underneath. can Okay. Yeah. That's really interesting. So dolphin birth, do they give live birth? Yeah.
00:30:15
Speaker
Do dolphins have periods? So yeah, no, that's interesting. Cause I might have to do a little back checking on that and get back. Cause I feel like I've read something about that, but it's been a little while. I know our Google slip just so that the FBI knows it's for some stuff. Yeah, but I'm trying to actually come out. No. Okay. No, they don't. Yeah. Like they, okay. So they bleed when they're giving birth, but they're not like,
00:30:49
Speaker
Yeah, okay, so it's just during labor. They don't have anything other time that they... I mean, but there's multiple parts of that, right? This is another thing that now I'm wondering about. Is anybody studying their, like, hormonal cycle? Because there's, sadly, like, not enough research on female animals, because it's like, ah they're too complicated. Are you kidding? Like, are you serious? I mean, we can do a whole other sidetrack about like medical research and how it's done on male that rats and mice. I'm here for the segue. I mean, I didn't recognize.
00:31:35
Speaker
and really alarming thing that that happens, yes. Because they're like, oh, well, the females are too complicated. So we've got those hormones and cycles and stuff.
00:31:53
Speaker
Yeah. weassur you that they're like really ah we're gonna But we're going to give the medicine to everybody because we know men or women are the same, right? Yeah. Nope.
00:32:07
Speaker
Oh boy. Okay. Well, we got to look into that. Jeez. Yeah. Okay. So dolphins. So we, so then we, are you saying we know more about male dolphins? Okay. Well here, there's really two things that people need to know about dolphins, right? They're super social. Okay. And they're super horny.
00:32:32
Speaker
Right. And those things kind of, go together. and yeah I mean and i think it think it's the socialness that makes like us humans like really identify with them because they're they're they're very social, which makes them kind of like curious about you know, what's going on. And they have this amazing memory for like, who said what to who and who's fighting with, you know, oh, so is fighting with this other dolphin. So I'm not gonna tell them that I talked to, like they have this whole crazy network of their social interactions going on. It's that deep. Oh, it's really, yeah, it's really wild. Yeah. You'd think we have more movies about dolphins. Well, like dolphin drama, social drama,
00:33:25
Speaker
And you would also think that for a creature that keeps all its, you know, sensitive parts all tucked up inside and they have these little, they don't even have hands to do anything. They've got these little flippers. You'd think they'd be kind of, you know, boring sexually. It's like, they're like, oh, we're taking on the challenge. You're not gonna let me reach down there. Somebody else to reach in for me. you know Let's dive in, if you will. into that, where dolphins are doing each other favors, sexual favors. Oh, all the time.
00:34:05
Speaker
And maybe, maybe I need to make something also a little clear. So when I say that there's this slit and the penis is inside, when the penis is erect, is outside. Ew. No. Dolphin penises. are curly. Oh no.
00:34:32
Speaker
That's like the worst thing you could have said. Like a curly fry. Like the whole curl, which means like a curl around things or each others.
00:34:44
Speaker
Okay, so are the are the female dolphin insights currently? I mean, the female dolphin, like you don't go looking up. And personally, I have, let me just make this clear. While I have witnessed dolphin sexual behaviors, I have not taken part in the dolphin sexual behaviors. So if you want to ask me like real intimate details like that, I'm going to have to tell you that I have not I've not been there myself, personally. So we're just gonna have to. Gross. Oh, but I will say it. Okay. Okay. Okay. But, but I will say.
00:35:23
Speaker
that I have seen like anatomical studies of the dolphin clitoris, and it has a lot of similarities to the female human clitoris. Lots of nerves go in there. so like Is it inside? Yeah. Everything's in there. Sort of hours and party time. right like They can get a lot of pleasure from that. so Why not? And they figured it out. They're going to rub it against stuff.
00:36:03
Speaker
is So question, question marks, it two questions. Let me write down the first one. Cause again, I have ADHD and I'm going to forget. And while you're doing that, I so i totally need you to know if anybody's doing dolphin, uh, like hormone cycle research, probably. Oh yeah, totally. I did type it in. Oh yeah. Uh, sort of. you Yeah. But they don't, like these things are so boringly written, right? They're not like, oh, but it's that time of the month for the dolphin. No, they're like, yeah.
00:36:44
Speaker
Okay. First of all, so if dolphins are social creatures, can they give consent ah to sexual activity? Okay. So first of all, a disclaimer, right? So dolphins, while having many similarities to humans, okay? Also have many differences, right? So we have to remember like what our ideas of consent are may not be the same for them. So I also say this, I would say the same thing about intelligence. People will ask me like, oh, are dolphins, like how smart are dolphins compared to humans? And to that I'm like, well, it depends on how you're measuring intelligence. There's lots of different types of intelligence. Like dolphins are perfectly intelligent to be a dolphin.
00:37:33
Speaker
Right. So like if when we design an intelligence test for the dolphin, right, they may or may not do like that well on it. Imagine if a dolphin did an intelligence test for a human. we would probably fail miserably, because it probably involved like, hey, can you blow this bubble into the shape of a fish? And we'd be like, I can't even, I don't even know what you're doing. What? Huh? I'm just putting that out there. um But yeah, and that it's it's ah there's some interesting dynamics. ah If you're wondering, you're like are dolphins sometimes forced into sexual activity?
00:38:13
Speaker
Yeah, that happens. It's a whole wide range. Yeah, it's a whole big. Yeah. There's a lot. Our first ah the first episode of this podcast was with a sexual conflict researcher. So that's where my stick that's where my question stems from is like, OK, well, what is what does sexual conflict look like in a species that is highly social but also very horny? Are they able to communicate their desires or not desires?
00:38:49
Speaker
Very interesting. and and then And then we're interpreting that from our human perspective, right? Exactly. We don't, unfortunately, yet speak dolphin. So we can't be like, so how was that for you? Were you into it or not? Zero to ten.
00:39:15
Speaker
Do you think that we would be able to train AI to like speak dolphin? AI is being used to help like you know figure out some of the patterns, but AI is like still kind of a human construct.
The Intersection of AI and Dolphin Communication
00:39:34
Speaker
right The way that we record and categorize recordings is still like from our human perspective. and so Is it going to help? Yeah. Cause we can get like, we can cover more territory, right? But we still have these, these human limitations in the way that we're approaching the data, you know, the sounds. Yeah. This is, this is interesting. And then my next, uh, my next question is about eels.
00:40:09
Speaker
So yeah I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't see your payments. like It just says eels. Oh, eel eels. I like eels. um Eels. I was told that, um, that the dolphins can electrocute themselves like for pleasure using eels. hey Oh, I think I did read something about that at some point. Okay, not something I have personal knowledge of, but would not surprise me. They they do sometimes, I mean, again, the way we humans are viewing it, they do sometimes use other creatures as like toys and play things.
00:40:54
Speaker
Um, no way. Sponges, fish, seaweed. Not SpongeBob. No. So yeah, would not, would not be surprised at all.
00:41:13
Speaker
They're very, uh, exploratory. Very interesting. And then whales. Are whales, whales, whales, mammals or no? Yeah. So, okay.
00:41:28
Speaker
Not to be, not to get too sciency, but technically dolphins are whales. Okay. I know. Okay. All right. All right. So, so like generally we talk about, yeah. Okay. Generally talking about like dolphins and whales, but technically dolphins are whales. So if you think about whales, and I know you're thinking your head, like a huge, huge, giant animal. Yes. Fat. Yeah. Okay. Um,
00:42:01
Speaker
well I mean, yeah theyre diving down deep, they need their blubber. That was that was no that was nothing about the whale. Okay, so yeah true. Um, so, uh, I mean, insulation is good. Okay. Anyway, um, so, so there's two types of whales.
Whale Classification and Anatomy
00:42:20
Speaker
So you have toothed whales, which means they have teeth, and then you have baleen whales, which means instead of teeth, they've got baleen. And so when you think of your, like, when you, when you're picturing a whale, you're probably thinking about baleen whales and stuff like humpback whales.
00:42:36
Speaker
blue whales, right? Like the really big, and they have that like weird mouth, right? That has like the stringy stuff in it. Yeah, that's the baleon. Yeah, it looks like broom bristles. Yeah, and they didn and that's, and that helps them to filter the water for food. So they're like, it's like a filter in their mouth that helps them eat, like, huge whale eating little tiny things. Another really crazy thing. like Why? But anyway, um then the toothed whales, right? So then they have, they have teeth. um Those are things like, like dolphins and porpoises are, are toothed whales. And so that's, yeah, ah technically dolphins are whales, even though nobody talks about them that way, usually. Yeah, they don't. It's kind of just like dolphins and then everybody else.
00:43:28
Speaker
their whales. I mean, but they're all like really related. So I will say I have ah not as many, you know, personal ah whale encounters as with dolphins. However, um you know, they're genitalia, like pretty similar. um But if you have a larger whale, you might also imagine that some other parts of them are larger. No. How large you ask? I know you want to know. I'm scared. Pretty sure. Aren't some whales as big as like a football field? Yeah, some blue whales are like the hugest thing. um And I'm pretty sure that a blue whale penis can get up to like
00:44:23
Speaker
almost 10 feet long. That's like a car. And and if you're hurt if you're horrified now, um actually ah I have a colleague. A colleague told me about a very scary situation that she was in. She was studying some whales and she was out in her little research boat. Whale comes over, knocks her out of the boat with his penis.
00:44:59
Speaker
She's okay. It was just like, can you imagine? I mean, but she could have not been okay. And thank goodness she's okay. Like, can you also imagine like, if that was the way that you went and the obituary, I would totally play it up. I'd be like, went out.
00:45:19
Speaker
way with the biggest dick that you've ever seen in your life. We don't have to tell anybody it was a whale. like We're not gonna specify the species. Oh my gosh. So wait, no. it's so with the was it Did she describe, like did it just clock her on the head? yeah Yeah, knocked her right out of the boat.
00:45:50
Speaker
Yeah. I have so many questions. I wasn't there. I just heard that. I just heard the story. Did it just fall out? Like, is it, dude? Well, when they're, when they have an erection, like it stays out.
00:46:12
Speaker
So are whales, do whales get horny too? Say no.
00:46:17
Speaker
I mean, come on, of course. So are whales also, if dophs so if dolphins are mammals, then all whales are mammals, then? Yes, yes, all whales are mammals, not fish. Yep, they're mammals. Wow. Are there any other, like what are the other underwater mammals, manatees? So you have, okay, so if you want to like divide them up, the main ones would be the whales. And then you have like what, like a group that we would call pinnipeds. And, um, which is just a fancy like category name for like seals and sea lions, walruses, manatees.
00:46:59
Speaker
The things that are kind of like dolphins, but they sort of have, but they're like a little bit more adapted to, like sometimes like they could go on land. So they're like a little more adapted to land. They look kind of awkward on land, but they're, you know, still cute. Yeah. yeah like more like dogs a bit oh sorry manatees are not uh sorry manatees are not uh uh pinnipeds manatees are serenians uh and they're their own they're their own thing yeah so you have so you have like the manatees the dugongs doing their thing you've got like the whales with the tooth and the baleen you've got the pinnipeds and then like i guess depending on who you ask there's like polar bears
00:47:44
Speaker
Um, could be sitter considered, um, rain mammal. Um, I guess some people would consider like sea otters, rain mammals. I mean, it depends on how, like, you know, how you wanted to find, but yeah. Interesting. That is so interesting. Platypus. Well, so there are platypuses do swim, but I think that they're more like freshwater.
00:48:15
Speaker
I don't know. Do platypuses go in the ocean? I don't think... Google Scholar.
00:48:26
Speaker
gladty put Platypus. Do platypuses go in the ocean? They venture into brackish estuaries. The difference here is like, you want to be a marine mammal, you like need to like really like hang out. in the ocean, right? You can't just be like, oh, I'm a marine mammal. Cause like i I went to the beach. So like that makes you a marine. I think you need to have like a little more cred than that. I agree with my very limited expertise in the field. I think that's valid. I think that's valid. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. So whales are mammals, but are whale but dolphins are very social, but whales also talk. Can dolphins talk to whales?
00:49:14
Speaker
So that's an interesting, I don't think that we really have a clear sense of that. So my guess is that there's some like cross species understanding of calls underwater because they you know because everybody's so focused on the sounds, right? Whether or not they're having like a for real conversation, like, oh, I speak your dialect perfectly, like maybe not, but I think that they probably are eavesdropping on other conversations and probably getting information from that. You said dialect. Do they do dolphins, they have dialect? They do. Yeah, regional dialects. Yes. Yes, they do. So we got some country-ass dolphins probably somewhere with a twang. Shut up! And then like the grooves like get together and they're like, why are you talk funny? Are you serious?
00:50:11
Speaker
Yeah. And then it's like, like merge. And they're like, there's all, there's, there's actually, it's a whole, it's a whole field of study. Don't they migrate? Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I wanna know everything, empty out, give me everything that in your brain right now, empty it out right now. you know so So there's a lot of research going on in this area, like, this is really cool, right? Like, okay, like you guys all talk together, like you kind of like converge on your songs in your and your noises that you make and then you come up to this other group and then you like try to talk to each other and then like maybe the groups merge and you talk more like each other or all that. um but But honestly, I mean, there's,
00:50:53
Speaker
There's just, what what really continues to surprise me is just how much we don't know and don't understand about this, right? Like here we are, you know, our idea of like studying animal language is to like teach other animals English. And like, that's cool, but that's not us learning their way of communication. um
00:51:24
Speaker
so and i And I think, you know for me, when I am thinking about what we need to do to better understand dolphin communication, we need to think more about the environment that they're in and the way that sound is so much a part of all of their senses, right? So they're they're not just using sound for communication, they're also using it for sight. So you know about echolocation, So like dolphins can actually see with sound. So they produce a sound and it bounces off objects in their environment and they hear the echo coming back. And from the change and the sound that they produced and the echo, they can get ton of information about their environment. So for an animal that uses sound for that and for language,
00:52:17
Speaker
that To me, like that has to be very interrelated. Their language must be like incredibly, amazingly complex, three-dimensional, dynamic, all these things. And so we humans, because here we are, like to do to do let's put it in a two-dimensional graph, and we'll just roll some lines and publish a paper about it. OK, that's fine. like What we're doing is good. like Baby steps. but I think we're pretty far away from really understanding what's going on. Okay. Where are the dolphin ears then? Write about where you would think that they are. Again, from google you're a luck.
00:53:03
Speaker
I got everything tucked inside. um But they're the way that they hear is not as simple as like for us. It's like, oh, we hear like through our ears when our ear drums. They also have like ways of receiving sound like through other parts of their head. I see the ears. They're like little. Yeah, they're just little there. Yeah, they're just there. They don't have like an external ear thing. Again, in the water that would just slow you down, which by the way is how you tell the difference between a seal and a sea lion. Seals are like
00:53:40
Speaker
like little more Like, in the in the what and like the how you divide your time, water, and land, seals are more like suited to the water. um And seal sea lions are a little like little less awkward. of it like Think about a seal trying to get on the, flopping around on the land. There's like sea lions still a little awkward, but a little more graceful than a seal. um And the sea lions actually have this external ear flaps. And so, um, yeah, so it's easy, easy way of telling telling sea lions and seals apart, uh, the sea lions, more land-based. They have the ear flaps. Yeah. Dolphins. No ear flaps. Oh, interesting. Um, so how would, how are dolphins receiving the sounds from the other parts of their head? So.
00:54:31
Speaker
and still There's still a little bit of mystery around it, but they can actually receive some things through their jaw. Yeah, so they have like like in like they have this really interesting like head anatomy. um and so yeah it's but like but if But if you think about it, all right we also can receive sounds through not just our ears, because what are sounds? Pressure waves, vibrations. We can experience that too, right? So, so it's not, it's not all, it's not all that nuts, really, when you think about it, because we can experience sound with parts of our body that are not our ears as well. I am now looking at Dolphin Anatomy and I see that they have something called, I see that they have lower mandible and incoming sounds pointing to the lower mandible, the jaw. um I also see that they have
00:55:30
Speaker
Um, something called phonic lips. Yeah. And like the dorsal bursae and the the, yeah. So they've got, um, sound production in and a dolphin. Like that's going to take an entire other, like, but like we'll be here for days. Cause it's, it's really, it's really weird. Like their sound production it looks weird and they do stuff with their blowhole. Like their blowholes are so weird. I mean, imagine like they've got their nose like on top of their head and then they're also like making sounds out of that. Like what?
00:56:10
Speaker
I mean, isn't that kind of what we do a little bit, but not really? It's just through like our mouth and not, it's not that real now through your, through your nose. Well, it's the same hole. How do you, how do you speak? It's the same hole though. Isn't it like the same, you can get to your mouth through your nose. Mm-hmm, but I know is it different for them? Do they not I mean, I mean look at it like like ah our nose is like near our mouth. Theirs is like Not True true. It's at the top of their head, you know, yeah, and it had and it's like and they can like manipulate the opening of their blowhole like and all these different ways and Yeah I'm impressed
00:57:01
Speaker
the Something called a melon. I see. Yes. Melon. you So that's what's inside that big old lump. Yeah, it's a melon. Mm hmm. I'm not seeing a brain on this. I mean, they have a brain, but let me click kind of behind the eye a little bit. Wow. So I think that people probably would have looked at a dolphin and thought that that front part was the brain. But it's actually that or like the whole thing because you'd be like, oh, you're so smart, like their whole like.
00:57:37
Speaker
thing. Um, but yeah, not, not really. I mean, like the melon is also part, like, okay. ah Again, about like sound being so important underwater. The melon is also involved in sound reception. Right. And so, and then their brain has a lot like devoted to sound. Like, so it's just's just a lot of like sound focused stuff going on. Actually, I think the bellend actually is both ways, like I think it, um you know, for their sound production and also as their sound reception. But again, like there's a lot that we still don't understand about how this stuff works, but we have a better idea now than we did say like, even like 10 years ago.
00:58:26
Speaker
Very cool. And some of us, that is so weird. Like, cause they have ears, but yet I'm looking at this and I don't see ears anywhere ah on this, on this like diagram about sound, which is fascinating. And so our whales, I mean, dolphins are whales. Gosh is so okay. Overall, are And see, even I'm looking at this website, it says Whale and Dolphin Conservation, United Kingdom. So, um but anyway, are all whales, are their anatomy across the board pretty similar when it comes to this sound?
00:59:10
Speaker
Well, it does depend on yes and no. um ah You want to look at something weird? ah Why don't you look at sperm whale anatomy? OK, let's do it. Let's do its sperm whale anatomy. And then you're gonna be like, what? Holy shit.
00:59:31
Speaker
Pretty crazy, right? You know what? I'm now realizing that Pearl on SpongeBob was a sperm whale. Cause this looks just like her. My SpongeBob, Bob knowledge is like sadly lacking. I might have to brush up on that. It's fine. You're not missing out on much. You've probably have, you probably have a few more brain cells than most of us as a result. um
00:59:54
Speaker
Um, but yeah, this is, what am I even looking at? I think, I think, I think what bothers me about SpongeBob is like what I know about sponges and like, okay, no disrespect to sponges. I think they're totally amazing. And like for something that like. It's like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Like they've been around like that for ages, but like they do eat and poop out of the same hole. So we can need some corrections to probably nobody would watch that show. I mean, to be fair, they never showed SpongeBob pooping.
01:00:33
Speaker
I feel like they would have snuck that into the show. um I was also told like Squidward is a squid and he is um a part of the show. I heard that one of the tentacles on squids is actually Like I'm the male squid is actually a penis. Is that like, let me actually, let me, I mean, I'm looking at squid anatomy now from the, from the like crazy. I just want to fact check myself real quick. and I mean, and after this, after this, you're going to Google barnacle penis.
01:01:17
Speaker
Oh, OK, I will. It's really wild. So sponges eat and poop out the same hole. Yeah. Squid. It says most squid and octopuses deliver their sperm along one of their arms. A modified limb called a hecto, a hectotalis. Hmm. um
01:01:37
Speaker
It uses this long organ to dab a female's body attaching a pouch called a spermatophore, which contains millions of sperms. So technically one of Squidward's legs should be actually is a penis. They're showing that on television. And Squidward doesn't wear pants. oh He's the only one who doesn't wear pants. ah Kind of weird. Nickelodeon. Hmm. I know, I know, I know clothing choices on animals. That's a, yeah. It's like what? Barnacle. if SpongeBob, nevermind.
Unique Marine Anatomy and Media Misrepresentation
01:02:15
Speaker
This is so, yeah, why doesn't, let me just actually double check. Does Squidward wear pants? Squidward. No, he only has on a t-shirt. Why?
01:02:30
Speaker
If SpongeBob has to wear a full suit and tie, Why? He's in business casual. I know, I know. It doesn't that like get awkward. ah Yeah. Did no one think, Hey, maybe I should put some pants on. It might be logistically difficult if you have like a lot of, you know, what they're thinking of his legs. That might be very interesting, challenging for the artists.
01:03:03
Speaker
ah Wow. And now I got to look up barnacle. Barnacle. We're going to get back to the sperm whales though. Hold on. Okay. but I've given up on my search history. Oh my God. What am I looking at? Okay. Okay. Here's what I got to tell you about barnacle penises. All right. All right. So think about it. Like, what do you know about the adult barnacle? They're kind of stuck in one spot, right? So how are you going to find the ladies?
01:03:33
Speaker
Well, gotta get your logs out there to find them. Yes. Oh.
01:03:48
Speaker
ah Really? This is this is where you like God speak. We got down to the particles.
01:03:57
Speaker
Mm hmm. I got nothing. I got nothing. i I mean, yes, they're small, but like for their body size, very well endowed. And now I'm wondering how many animals have ah an actual penis that's longer than their entire body. Barnacle looks like a a one of I'm. i I don't know. I live close to the Pentagon and I'm scared. he Please don't come get me. Please. It's for science. And Google Scholar won't show me what I need. like this I have to go to Google itself because the search terms aren't... Oh my gosh.
01:04:44
Speaker
I know, because there's some really interesting, like, sexy stuff about animals, and then, like, the researchers will call it the most boring, like, jargony title ever. Like, come on. You can jazz up this title a little bit. Can we go to the sperm whales? Because I do see a diagram of the sperm whale anatomy and somebody labeled the melon. They have this huge melon and they just labeled it as junk. Is it, are they calling it junk or is that like the term for it? It's another like technical term for it. So like it's interesting. Which is also kind of confusing, but yes. I believe it could be called either one.
01:05:29
Speaker
Oh, really? the Yeah. So when we say junk in the trunk.
01:05:36
Speaker
For. For these whales, it's the front trunk. Yeah, but it's not actually. But it's not that it's not it's not that type of junk. OK, but yes. Yeah, just to make things extra. Yeah, yeah it's confusing. Spermiceti organ. Also confusing. Yeah. There's a lot of, I mean, also like, yes. I mean,
01:06:08
Speaker
Yeah, ah i now that i as I think about it, sperm whales are like incredibly confusing if you want to talk about like whale sex because they have all this stuff in their head that sounds like super sexy but like really isn't that? um Yeah, because like the sperm ascetic is like again like another like thing that they have that helps them with their, with their sound, with their communication. This is extremely fascinating. There's a giant muscle right there. Junk sperm, I said, organ. Wow. I'm fascinated by this. Oh yeah. Okay. So, so interestingly, right. So sperm whale kind of a sexy name, but
01:07:00
Speaker
kind of named wrong because, uh, that, that spermaceti that they have in their head was named because they actually thought that it was semen at some point. Um, but then like they just, I guess they'll called it spermaceti and then they just called the whale sperm whale. Just like, anyway, that seems kind of silly, but because me There's fluid in there. Uh, the sperm is like oil. Oh, so like, yeah. So like the thing that like, you know, like oil lamps and stuff. Got it. true Interesting. And to harvest that you would have to kill the whale. Yeah.
01:07:54
Speaker
Poor whales. Okay. Very, very interesting. So whales, they make bigger, they sound like they make big sounds according to Dory. Okay. This is my knowledge base. According to Dory on Finding Nemo. Yep. Okay. um And they it sounds more like singing. so And I listened to some of your music. What elements of ocean sounds do you like to incorporate into your
Heather's Ocean-Inspired Music
01:08:30
Speaker
music? And like it just sounds like there's so much to pull from.
01:08:37
Speaker
In constructing an actual musical track, there's like the percussion, there's synthesized sounds, there's like the harmony and melody. like How do you even take all of that to make a track that's just like nature jams? Yeah. Well, for me, it really comes from the but underwater sounds and soundscapes themselves. And so my approach is... Um, not so much about like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make this kind of song that's going to have like this kind of feeling and this tempo and like these instrumentations. And then I'm going to like add in some whales for ambiance as much more about like, okay, let me immerse myself in listening to these sounds in the soundscape. And like, what.
01:09:31
Speaker
what patterns emerge? like What am I struck by? like what What seems to be really important about the soundscape? And then kind of playing with that and seeing where it goes. And I also, a lot of like jamming with, I'll come up with some bits of like, wow, this is like super interesting. um And then maybe like jam with it with an instrument, kind of like, kind of like, you know, exploring that and like my own way of like jamming with the ocean.
01:10:05
Speaker
um and and and And it's cool because like in the process of doing that, you know sometimes I'll discover things I hadn't really been paying attention to before. you know i was like as you know Same way you would in a musical ensemble, like hearing like you know you you play, but you're also listening at the same time. And so that's ah kind of like that really like interesting like interactive listening experience can like bring new insights about the thing that you're
01:10:36
Speaker
the music that you're making. Do you have a favorite sound to use in your music?
01:10:47
Speaker
I think it would be hard to say favorite. I think that my favorite like challenge is actually the snapping shrimp. I love snapping shrimp. Yeah. So, so the thing about it is though, is that if you just play people
01:11:08
Speaker
snapping shrimp. I actually had this happen. They'd be like, oh, I think there was something wrong with your track. It's very static-y. I'm like, oh, okay. Cause like some certain whale, not all whale sounds, certain whale sounds do have a very kind of melodic quality to them, right? I feel like that's Like it's really cool, but like it's kind of an easy sell. Cause people are like, Oh, that sounds nice. Like a snapping shrimp. And you're like, how do you get people to relate?
01:11:39
Speaker
to this thing that to them, if they're just listening to it, sounds like static. And so then sometimes I play with like stretching things in time, you know, maybe pinch changes because really, you know, I try to keep some, you know, I try to stay true in a sense to the underwater sounds themselves, but I also feel like it's okay to play with them in these ways because when you really think about it, changing, say, like the time scale of a sound, an underwater sound sound recording. Well...
01:12:10
Speaker
different species experience time in different ways, right? So like, I feel like that's, you know, like that actually could help us, you know, maybe we'll discover something through that process or like changing the pitch, right? um So sometimes through that it can like bring out different patterns and some things that that, you know, feel very musical to humans and can help us connect with those like kind of alien weird sounds. I would have thought that the snapping shrimp would have been easy just because it's like, you know, but then now that you explain it, I could see how it would sound like static. Individual snaps. I will sometimes take individual snaps and then use them actually as snaps, like percussive snaps in a recording. Like that's fun. But like the collective snapping shrimp static is is is tricky. Yeah.
01:13:02
Speaker
Have you ever used like, I guess your work is so unique. Have you worked with. people in Hollywood or I guess where can, where's your work heard other than in your studio? Oh my gosh. I'd love to work with some people in Hollywood. It drives me absolute. Sometimes I'll, write I'll write like strongly worded notes two to, to shows because somewhere out there, I think they're like, I think a lot of different, especially kids shows, um, are using like the same bank of
01:13:39
Speaker
like natural sounds, and unfortunately, um so in the show Flipper, they used a dolphin, they they had the voice of Flipper, and people, when they think of a dolphin sound, they think they think of the voice of Flipper. The voice of Flipper is not an actual dolphin sound. The voice of Flipper, they made by taking a kookaburra bird call and speeding it up. And what's really wild about that is that, okay, I can understand if like an animal makes a really boring sound and you want to give it an exciting sound like, okay, it's Hollywood, but like dolphins make such interesting sounds. You could have just.
01:14:23
Speaker
And anyway, so now that, that sound is like in these banks. And so like, even like educational shows, they'll like have a thing and they'll have a big example of the sound of the dolphin. I'm like, that is not a dolphin. That's a, that's a. I know. I keep bringing up SpongeBob and to the the, the viewers who have seen SpongeBob will get it. So on SpongeBob, they curse and they use dolphin sounds to bleep, to bleep out the curse words. And it sounds like um and Me, me, me, me. It sounds like. yeah you like It sounds like a bird. Is that. It might. OK, it's like I'm about to get really, I'm going to get really mad. Let's see. Sponge. OK, wait, can I find this? SpongeBob cursing sensor. I can't make the sound. I'm feeling so bad. Wait, let's let's let's let's let's. OK, sound effect. All right, here we go.
01:15:21
Speaker
Oh no. No. No, it's the Kookaburra bird. Oh shit. Now I'm gonna have to write to the people who write SpongeBob and complain to them too. It's everywhere. That's not really sound. No, I mean, no, that's a freaking bird call.
01:15:43
Speaker
I will, I will send you, we're gonna, we'll, we're gonna fix this on this podcast and I will send you some real dolphin sounds that people can hear. Cause dolphin sounds are amazing and interesting and they can like whistle. They have like whistled sounds. They have like squawking sounds, you know, they might go like, you know, or okay, I can't whistle that well.
01:16:12
Speaker
Like they make some like very decent recognizable sounds that could be that could be used. We've been lied to generations. So somebody needs to like fix this. I would love to. i freak i've been writing I've been doing my bit, writing my letters, but like I i would be happy to verify verify dolphin sounds for any show that wants to get it right. Because this is ridiculous. And like, okay, so they did it for Flipper, but why are we still doing it now? You just changed my life.
01:17:02
Speaker
I actually, i i sometimes when I give a talk, I'll i'll actually, I have a, to like kind of prove it to myself. I found a kookaburra call. I played it, you know, like normal speed and I sped it up, you know, just to like, like, yes, this is like, you can hear what it sounds like here to sped up. And I'm like, that is not what a dolphin sounds like. Dude, this is going to go viral. I feel like No, it is. And this actually brings us full circle back to the birds conversation. Honestly, we've we've we've made it full circle. We went from dolphins, we went from birds to dolphins, and now we're back, dolphins to birds. Okay. All of these podcasts are connected.
01:17:54
Speaker
Wow. I'm gonna do some real dolphin sounds because you need those in your life. Yes, we're gonna. But there there are some in my in in my songs, like, um so like, okay, so on the first track of whale hello there, that, e okay, that's actually what I didn't like make that pattern. That's actually what the dolphin was doing.
01:18:21
Speaker
Like, they could have used that. Like, it's jazzy, right? Like, they could have used that.
01:18:33
Speaker
Why do you think they do this? Like I, we keep referencing Finding Nemo and SpongeBob. I'm going back to Finding Nemo. Like when the, at the beginning of Finding Nemo, the mom and daddy clown fish and Nemo's the baby and the mom dies. And supposedly according to- Wait, you need to put spoiler alert here. ah Right. Spoiler alert. The mom dies. Spoiler alert. But it's literally the first second of the movie, like immediate tragedy. tragedy But the male clownfish was supposed to transform into a female clownfish because apparently that is how they've evolved. um But that never happens in the movie.
01:19:18
Speaker
which means like really the whole movie is a lie because the movie centered around the dad searching for his son. It's really supposed to be the dad turned into a mom and the mom's searching for the son. But they they completely eliminated that from the story and it's so it makes it so scientifically scientifically incorrect. And now I'm like, okay, now the dolphin noises we've heard all our lives on SpongeBob. I've watched SpongeBob all my life. That's not even what a dolphin looks like. This guy was born in 1989, and he's just found out today that dolphins do not sound like, like, what? But that's what birds fed up, birds fed up.
01:20:05
Speaker
I think they just don't know. Like, okay. So you're like the sound producer on some show, right? Like, and you're looking in some things. You're like, Oh, I need a dolphin sound for here. And you find one. You're not going to know like, Oh, this isn't right. You'd be like, Oh yeah, that sounds like flipper. and This must be good.
01:20:28
Speaker
This is one of the night scientists, part of like the whole enterprise, right? It's like, Why don't you have a scientist check your sounds and make sure they're actually the right species? How about, how about that? It would take like five minutes. Literally five minutes. It's like, quick call, be like, hey, I found this dolphin sound. It's pretty cool. Is this actually a dolphin? Oh, it's not. Do you have one? Do you have one that's cooler? Oh, you do? Can you email that to me right now? Okay, great. Thanks. Bye. I love that. Done.
01:21:06
Speaker
i I think that's, i yeah, we need that. And so many people get their information from the media that we should be doing that correctly. Wow. and you know and And somebody out there might be like, you know, maybe, how big of a deal is it really? Like, so they think a dolphin sounds like the sped up bird. Like, does it really matter? I would say like, yes, it does, because What's happening is that one little clip is being used for all of the dolphin sounds, which make it sound like dolphins have like one kind of sound that they make, which is very untrue. Dolphins are like this these extreme vocalists. It's one of the most important things about them. So it's not just about like, oh, well, it's not exactly right. It's also like ignoring like this really central feature about them that people could get really excited about.
01:22:04
Speaker
Yeah, I'm excited about it. I feel cheated. Honestly, I'm kind of upset. I feel cheated because...
01:22:14
Speaker
I think that you you know instead of shows like SpongeBob or things like Finding Nemo, instead of it just being entertainment, it could have been educational and drive curiosity into actual marine the marine life. and Granted, i think sponge are I think Finding Nemo did a much better job of accurately depicting marine life with all the currents and all of the different um like behaviors that they that the animals were displaying. SpongeBob is really far-fetched. There was definitely opportunities there. There were so many opportunities. um Yeah, SpongeBob was definitely far-fetched with an astronaut squirrel living under in an underwater terrarium. Like, yeah, that was super far-fetched. But still, the opportunity was there. there's And that's fine. Like, you want to take some creative license? Like, go for it. Do your thing. In things where giving the real information would actually make it more interesting, we should be doing that.
01:23:13
Speaker
I'm 100% agree. So it sounds like you're, you're pretty much doing your ideal career. Like what, what are some things that you aspire to do in the future? You've made, like you've, you, you've done science, you've make, you make music. Um, what's next for, for Dr. Heather Spence? Um, well, I do want to do more of all of that, right? Cause like, as you said, like this is all, these are all of my favorite things jam together and more of that, more sharing it with other people, like helping other people find their ways to jam with the sounds and
01:24:01
Speaker
really like learn how to listen to nature and use that for inspiration. um So i I made an online class about that. So maybe I'll do e so maybe they'll do more of that because I really, I get so much joy out of it. I would like ah to like to share that. Yeah. Can people sign up for the class or is it um like in the works? Oh yeah, no, it's it's some it's actually available on studio.com. Nice. Yeah. We're going to put a link to that on the website. Nature music. yeah Absolutely cool. Cause like there's, there's so much richness of the way that we can explore sounds and like use, use the sounds as the driving process in composition. It's, it's so, it's so like eye-opening, ear-opening, it's ear-opening.
Creative Collaboration in Marine Science
01:24:56
Speaker
Yeah, i'm i'm goingnna I'm actually going to connect you with Dr. Tiara Moore. She's the CEO of Black in Marine Science. um And they have a really innovative conference that they do annually, um a retreat, and they have a really just immers It's an immersive experience for marine science. They pull from like the fishing community to like the research community to the Navy to all these aspects of marine science um join together in one in one place. and I would love for them to have you come in and like do a workshop or even just talk about what you do. because
01:25:42
Speaker
Ooh, I know so many people who are creative, just like you and I, who are searching for that outlet and are looking for ways to combine their art and their science. And you do it so beautifully. and And I am so inspired and and I want other students, I want students to see you as an example, because like we talked about earlier, it does seem like you have to just, become a boring academic yeah um and and be one-dimensional, but we're we're not one-dimensional as people. know yeah and And for some people, you know the the the getting like extremely focused, like more and more and more and more focused into a topic is is what they want to do, and that's fine.
01:26:33
Speaker
but I feel like there's a lot of pressure on people who are like, they dip they've dipped the toe and in science. They're like, this is cool, but I'm not sure if it's for me or not. And they get discouraged from pursuing science more actively because they're more generalist or they like have other things they want to do too. And it's like, there's this like sense of like, oh no, but you really have to just like stay narrowly focused on this one thing for your whole life, and and it really doesn't have to be that way. There are so many different paths that you can be, for example, a marine biologist. like Most people that I know who are marine biologists do not have the job title marine biologist.
01:27:16
Speaker
And I think that people who are like advising people up about careers get a little bit put off by the fact it's like, there's very few jobs in marine biology. Yeah. With the job title, marine biologists, but there's all kinds of jobs that are, that involve doing marine biology that could be called all kinds of other things. So yeah, there's like, there's so many different ways to, to, to explore your passions. Yeah. i That's a really great point. I love that. And that's even like it just it even in a job search, you know, you would type in marine biologists and think like, oh, but there's only five jobs. And it's like, well, no, that's not quite how this works. and so Like even me, I'm a molecular biologist, but my
01:28:07
Speaker
my other passions in education and communication. So like my title is Director of Science Communication, but I'm communicating about molecular biology and I can also do molecular biology research through my position if that's something I wanted to do. um yeah So yeah, it's all there. Yeah, but people wouldn't know that like unless we tell them. Exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, take some time to get to know you and don't neglect your passions and just figure it out. You'll figure it out. It's so easier said than done, but you'll figure it out. Yeah.
01:28:47
Speaker
Yeah, um cool. Well, I wanted to do a quick shout out to um my the shirt. We talked about boobs today in memory glands. I just wanted to encourage people to get this shirt. It is the podcast merch. It says tits on the shirt, but, but it's titanium in Tennessean, periodic elements. Titanium is one of the strongest metals in the world. And Tennessean was discovered recently. okay It's element number 117 out of 118 and ah was just was synthesized at the ah in Tennessee at a university.
01:29:29
Speaker
Um, but a black woman actually was a, one of the leading team members. Her name is Clarice Phelps. I'm about to send her one of these shirts, but you should get it to go to shop.thesciencebaven.com to get your shirt. They come in these cute little stretchy baby crop top tees. We've got regular tees. We've got like and fitted, non-fitted, just go look. There's something there for you. OK, cool. That was my advertisement, Heather. I need a shirt. Yes, we're going to make sure I'm like, I'm like, that's amazing. We're going to make sure we get you a shirt. Absolutely no problem.
01:30:10
Speaker
um And so, yes, Heather, where can we find you? Like, i I would love it. First of all, are there any things that we didn't talk about that you would like to bring up before we part ways, before I get people tell you tell people where to find you, et cetera? I mean, there's so many things we can go into. I know. This will not be our last conversation. Yeah. I have questions. I want to write them all down. More things could be talked about, but we didn't even get into dolphin sleep. Yeah, but I'm going to write it down. But we'll have to, for next time, things, any really important things. I mean, I feel like we've covered some good territory.
01:30:59
Speaker
I, yes. And I do feel like we left with more questions, which is always great. I love going down these rabbit holes. That's what science is. Science, more questions. Yes. i I have so many questions. We talked about so much. We talked about like a dolphin endocrinology to sexual behavior, to like sound production, animal wise and people wise, you know, like, careers. Oh my gosh, what a cool conversation. Thank you so much for coming on here. I really appreciate your time. Yes, you are like, I was already super excited to meet you. You're like a million times even cooler than I thought you already were. So like shout out to you for being awesome. And thank you to your husband for following and supporting me and like
01:31:46
Speaker
catching catching my request and recommending you because um yeah we wouldn't be here without it. Yes, thank you so much. um And now tell us where we can find you and support you. So my website is just my name dot.net, heatherspence dot.net. Net, like rain biology. Nice. um So I have links, I think I have links to most most things there. um And ah for for music, um you can find it on most streaming platforms. It's under my name, Heather Spence, as the artist. um the recent My most recent album is Whale Hello There.
01:32:28
Speaker
And there are real underwater recordings and actual real dolphin sounds in there, including in that first track. so yeah Do I have permission to play like tiny snippets of some of your music? We are we will not be playing the whole song, but I want people to get a good idea of how awesome it is so that they can check out your full full body of work. yeah very You won't find this anywhere else. This is fast absolutely fascinating work. I want to see it everywhere. like And it's stuff that you want to jam out to. It's not just it's not like easy listening. It's like, oh, I want to get up and like
01:33:08
Speaker
You know, move around. It's good stuff. Yeah, ah it's really good. OK, so did you heard it here. Go check out Whale Hello There by Dr. Heather Spence on your streaming platforms. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you again for coming on and we will be chatting soon. I am going to keep in touch. Yes. Yeah, i've musical collaboration. Yeah, it's coming. Yeah, I would love to rap on one of those beats. that's That would be freaking cool. First first song's gonna be Barnacle Penis. I mean, honestly, of all all the rap songs, although not and I'm generalizing, but of rap music made by women talking about big dicks. But we've never, I haven't heard a lot of Barnacle yet, but we just saw
01:34:04
Speaker
they Honestly, I would do it. I would definitely do it here. Honestly, I would do it to make a parody of kind of how ridiculous it is, the amount of songs that we have about dicks. I would actually do it as a parody, but we we'll figure out the details on that. Okay. All right. um Okay. Yes. Bye guys.