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Encore - Unlocking Player Loyalty: Gemma Doyle's Secrets to Building Engaging VIP Programs
46 Plays7 months ago
Welcome to another episode of the Player Engage Podcast, where we dive deep into the gaming industry's most intriguing topics. Today, we're thrilled to have Gemma Doyle, co-founder and CCO of SurgeROI, join us to share her insights on VIP programs and their impact on player loyalty and engagement.
Episode Highlights:
- Gemma's Journey: Discover Gemma's transition from real money gaming to social gaming and her pivotal role in introducing VIP programs to Zynga.
- Understanding VIP Programs: Learn what VIP programs are, their importance beyond gaming, and how they can enhance customer relationships across various industries.
- Building Relationships: Gemma discusses the significance of human interaction in VIP programs and how it can lead to increased retention and monetization.
- Data-Driven Decisions: Find out how data science plays a crucial role in tailoring VIP experiences and promotions to player preferences.
- Starting Small: Gemma shares valuable advice for indie studios on initiating VIP programs and the importance of direct player communication.
- Collaboration with Product Teams: Gain insights into how VIP feedback can influence game development and improve player satisfaction.
- ROI and Business Case: Gemma explains how to justify investment in VIP programs and measure their success.
- Social Power Players: The conversation touches on the emerging trend of treating influencers as VIPs due to their ability to attract and retain players.
- Personal Touch: Gemma shares heartwarming stories of how games and VIP programs have touched players' lives, emphasizing the human element in gaming.
Notable Quotes:
- "VIP is about layering data science and human interaction to develop a program that is really authentic and true to the players." - Gemma Doyle
- "Keeping and retaining those high-value players is really key to keeping a really healthy game." - Gemma Doyle
- "People are so happy to talk. I get a lot of feedback from gaming studios that our players don't want to talk on the phone, you know, but the submission rate for phone numbers is between the 70 and 85 percentile." - Gemma Doyle
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Transcript
Announcement: No New Podcast Episode
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi everybody, Greg here. I wanted to be the first to tell you that after 39 straight episodes of new content, this Tuesday is the first Tuesday we do not have a new podcast for you. We are just returning from GDC and we've learned a lot and it was a great time and we've met so many of you. And because of that, we're working on some new content to get out here and you'll start seeing it again next week. And if you take a look at our socials, you'll see it around now.
Monetizing In-Game Content
00:00:24
Speaker
For now, what we've heard at GDC over and over again is how do I monetize in-game? And if you've been paying attention to the news recently, companies like CNBC have been reporting that gaming companies are at all-time highs when it comes to profit and it's due to in-game purchases and microtransactions. And while players don't always love that, we wanted to share some steps with you and tips with you that make it easier.
Encore with Gemma Doyle: VIP Platforms at Zynga
00:00:45
Speaker
And because of that, we will be playing a
00:00:47
Speaker
Encore episode today of Gemma Doyle from search ROI Gemma started by building out a VIP platform at Zynga to get a better understanding of what players are doing in game and how you can improve that so Take a look full of great content and we'll answer a lot of the questions that many of you had at GDC and Keep an eye on our socials as well as next week because we'll have some new stuff coming for you soon. Thanks and enjoy the episode
00:01:12
Speaker
Hey everybody, welcome to the Player Engage podcast. Today we are joined by Gemma Doyle. She is the co-founder and CCO of Surge ROI. She has a really cool history of working with Zynga for over 10 years, helping multiple aspects from within Zynga, but most importantly, helping build out a loyalty program and understanding what the loyalty program is to bring additional value to Zynga.
Creating Loyalty Programs at Zynga
00:01:36
Speaker
And I think it's a really fascinating topic for people that may not be aware
00:01:39
Speaker
how it works, and we're going to learn a little more, hopefully get behind the curtain and see how gaming works from the back end. So, Gemma, first of all, thank you so much for joining us. I know you're traveling, so I appreciate you making time in your schedule. Is there anything you'd like to say about yourself? Well, thanks for having me, Greg. This is super exciting. This is my first podcast, so I'm very excited to see how this goes. And I'm really excited. VIP is my complete passion and has been for well over a decade, so I'm super excited about talking about it today.
00:02:10
Speaker
Yeah, and no pressure. This hopefully is an easy-going podcast. And I think loyalty VIP program is really an important topic. You know, from keywords and help shift, we spend a lot of time in this and we understand it a lot, right? But a lot of people we talk to don't really quite understand the value of VIP program. We're really kind of how it's done. So maybe for people who are listening, you can start at a really high level, right? Like,
00:02:35
Speaker
What is a VIP program and why should studios maybe take a look into this? And I think, sorry, just cut you off. I think this goes beyond gaming, right? And I think it's important for anyone who's listening that may not be in gaming, right? To understand why this is important to work with your customers because I think it's really great. So I cut you off there. Go ahead. No problem at all. So yeah, as you said, it could be applicable across all genres.
Transition to Zynga and VIP Program Development
00:02:59
Speaker
I originally started out in real money gaming well over a decade ago, maybe even two.
00:03:04
Speaker
in real money gaming in Europe and Dublin. I'm from Ireland originally. And the behaviours and the interactions with the VIPs were really engaging with the VIP base. And what I wanted to do was when I left that real money gaming company, I wanted to go to strategically move to a company like Zynga.
00:03:25
Speaker
who had social gaming but they didn't have the if you just didn't exist it was the concept that was embraced at the time and by the social gaming space so. Really you know i spent two years going back and forth to san francisco flag in the deck to anybody that would listen to me about the potential upside and when you move from a very,
00:03:46
Speaker
Kind of purchase driven industry into a very data driven industry it's two different worlds and to make them kind of collide and architect a program that let me to be make data driven decisions but also layer on human interaction.
00:04:02
Speaker
It was this tough space and as I said, it took me two years at Zynga until it finally stuck and we got one pilot program. At a high level, my version of VIP that I architected at Zynga is about layering data science and human interaction to develop a program that is really authentic and true to the
Structure of VIP Programs
00:04:24
Speaker
players.
00:04:24
Speaker
so that your players are engaged with their account manager, but they're also engaged with the game. It helps with retention, engagement and further monetization. So that's the value add for the company. And the definition of a VIP varies per genre and per company even.
00:04:42
Speaker
And so you could start with whatever we feel like the baseline is. So let's say, for instance, we take VIPs who had spent $500 and above and have been active in the last 180 days. So we've segmented them out as a base. Now we've got to sub-segment them out.
00:04:59
Speaker
and apply treatment to those groups to make sure that they feel engaged and they feel that retention is important to them, not just that they're connected to a game, but they're also connected to the account manager.
Role of Account Managers in Player Engagement
00:05:13
Speaker
So if they have problems in the game, you don't want them to churn, obviously.
00:05:18
Speaker
turn avoidance is key for everybody, but it's hard to engage a player. And I always use this analogy in that if a player has stopped purchasing in your game and is actively still playing, and they have been historically a purchaser in your game, reaching out via a phone call, and we know from experimentation, I'll probably talk a little bit more later on about experimentation, but we did a lot of it over the years. But for this instance,
00:05:48
Speaker
Sending kind of offers, marketing offers, direct to the players, whether that's, you know, via an MOTD or email or SMS or any kind of channel, if they have a problem in the game, it's really hard. And the analogy I use is a dirty restaurant syndrome. So if you walk into a dirty restaurant and you leave because you're unhappy with how clean it is,
00:06:10
Speaker
And the maître d'hans you a gift voucher on the way out. You're not coming back to that restaurant until the issue is fixed. So I give you an account manager. They speak to you directly and say, hey, I've seen that, you know, you haven't been able to, you haven't, you've been playing, but you haven't been purchased in a while. I was just wondering how everything is going for you.
00:06:27
Speaker
The player will then say, I had this issue, say for instance, they had an issue with a PVP feature and they weren't being paid out when they won against their pal. It frustrated them and they said, that's the only thing I monetize in the game. I don't monetize anywhere else and it's been broken. The account manager then gets it fixed if it's an individual issue, but it could be. We're all in gaming. We know that games don't always work perfectly every day, every night. It could be a current issue that's been resolved.
00:06:54
Speaker
gets the player back into the game and getting them back into that PvP feature that they really enjoy
Retaining High-Value Players
00:06:59
Speaker
to play. So the value comes from keeping those players engaged, you know, making sure that problems are removed so that they can thoroughly enjoy the experience and then
00:07:11
Speaker
Just the value to the company obviously is retention of highest value. When you look at the biggest problems in the industry right now, user acquisition is just so expensive. So keeping and retaining those high value players is really key to keeping a really healthy game.
00:07:30
Speaker
When you think about how much monetization or how much money is spent on user acquisition versus those who are in the game, you want to make sure that the VIP players feel heard, feel valued.
Comparing Gaming VIPs to Other Loyalty Programs
00:07:41
Speaker
If you think about it across any other industry with your airlines, your credit cards, you expect a level of, I have a dedicated person who looks after me because I've invested so much time and money into your service or products. And so too, they should feel that in gaming.
00:07:57
Speaker
even though it's a leisure industry and even more so actually that it's a leisure industry, nobody has to spend their money and time and commitment and loyalty to a particular game. There's just so many out there, you know, so it's really good to reward the VIPs and let them know, hey, we hear your voice. We want to fix your issues. We know you love your game. And we want to make sure that you have all the promotions that we have going at the moment tailored to you.
00:08:24
Speaker
We do a lot of tailored promotions, so we find out what's valuable to VIPs within each genre. So when we do do a promotion within VIP, it's not something that doesn't resonate with the VIPs themselves. We make sure we do a lot of that when we do our VIP profiling. So that's the value to the player. Number one should always be value to the player, number one
00:08:45
Speaker
Number two to the company is that retention number, test versus control, those who receive VIP treatment versus those who don't, and then of course there's a monetary value because you can definitively show the dollar value upside of VIP management if it is done correctly.
Challenges in Building Gaming Communities
00:09:05
Speaker
You said a lot there and a lot of cool stuff here. I want to kind of dig into some different bits and pieces of it. And this is not my favorite way of describing it, but it's almost like a SaaS company, right? Each customer of yours has an account manager. Your account manager is responsible for reaching out.
00:09:20
Speaker
almost sounds like we're going in a circle, like time wise, right? Because for a while there, you don't want to have phone support, you don't want you just want them to send an email or chat or something like that, right? We don't want to be talking on the phone. And all of a sudden, we're talking about our high value customers. Let's bring back the phone. Let's bring back that personal touch, because I think we lost that personal touch.
00:09:37
Speaker
I mean, I mean, I can imagine Zynga has millions and millions and millions of freemium type of players that you can't just support them all. But how do we find that subset of individuals that are that are willing to spend money? And if they're not picking up on those trends and understanding, hey, why isn't user X spending money anymore? Let's talk to them and figure this out. And I love the idea of kind of testing control, because you can't just throw everything against the wall to see what kind of sticks there. So, you know, not
00:10:03
Speaker
Every company is a Zynga where you have millions of users, right? So there's a lot of indie gaming studios that are starting up and trying to understand, all right, how do I build a community? How do I understand what voices are important from the community? So from maybe we're jumping ahead here, but like, when is the right time to even start thinking about these types of conversations? Because it is going to maybe take some time and effort to build out these research methods and figure it out. But we also want to make sure we have time to build our game.
00:10:30
Speaker
Well, I'll go back to my history and say that when it finally sunk in that VIP may be something that I think it would be interested in, it was me on a spreadsheet with 900 VIPs. I just got on the phone and talked to them and start building relationships. If you are a small indie company and you want to reach your player base, start talking to them. Pick up the phone today. It's so important. People are so happy to talk.
00:10:59
Speaker
I get a lot of feedback from gaming studios that our players don't want to talk on the phone. But the submission rate for phone numbers is between the 70 and 85 percentile. Now it does vary by genre, but in terms of when you give them a guarantee that they have somebody who can fix their problem in the MOTD when you're asking for the phone number, hey, you've got an account manager. We're going to look after your issues. Number two, you've got awesome special offers just for VIPs that we have now included you in.
00:11:27
Speaker
because they wanna be involved. They don't wanna miss out on that. And number three, here's some coins or in-game currency to thank you for submitting your phone number.
00:11:37
Speaker
So in terms of, so yeah, if you're a small indie studio and you don't have the resources, and bear in mind, Zynga started small with resources.
VIP Players as Consultants
00:11:45
Speaker
It was all incremental every year, every six months, actually, we grew and grew and grew, but we had to prove ourselves. So I think if you're a small indie company, have somebody, if you are deciding where to put somebody in to engage with your players, and you have high value players in the game already, you should be on the phone with those. There's so many times that
00:12:06
Speaker
I've reached out to VIP players and they've been frustrated with maybe customer service or they've been frustrated with some element of the game. All it takes is a phone call and they're amazed that somebody actually cared enough to pick up the phone and call them. As I said, we did experimentation around how effective channels were and calls are, bring back calls as you say, calls are three times more effective than any other channel because it's a human talking to a human.
00:12:33
Speaker
about the thing that they're most passionate about. They're most passionate about their game. So it really is, they don't want to talk to a chatbot. Companies have to use them, and the more personalized and effective they are, chatbots can be useful. But in the case of high value VIPs, you're a small indie company, get somebody on the phones, get somebody talking to your players. Not only do you resolve their issues and get them back in the game on an individual basis,
00:13:02
Speaker
but the information that comes from these VIP players, you don't always have the demographic that's playing your game, building your game. So it's important that these guys are actually treated as consultants. You know, they have a lot to say about their passion and, you know, they really want to share with the people that I've met over the course of time between VIPs that we've had, you know, graphic designers and CEOs and school superintendents. And they've had like really, really
00:13:33
Speaker
robust careers and they want to keep their mind active. They treat their game as if when they're retired, as if they're treating their career. They take it very seriously, they want the issues fixed, and they want a channel to be able to air their grievances to say, hey, this is not something I like, I don't like this new feature. That in turn then becomes so valuable because once we have a strategic listening hope in place within a company,
00:13:59
Speaker
you can feed back into the product team really valuable information to help them to build the product. And the same will happen with the indie game. They will get some really, really awesome information from VIP players. The next question that they'll ask is,
00:14:15
Speaker
But we're not going to channel our roadmap, our product feature roadmap based on two, three players. And that's absolutely, they should not do that. But what they should do is take the, say two to five players, ask them questions about the feature roadmap that they have.
00:14:32
Speaker
in the in the imminent future and then you know see what they see what resonates with them and then take that and put it into a survey and go out to your wider base but now you've got kind of information from your highest value most engaged players so you're not getting a survey from a product managers that
00:14:49
Speaker
have you know work really hard and certain features and they're making decisions they may not necessarily be the demographic that's playing the game so it's important that the indie team and the companies as well as the large companies and really kind of ingest that information from the players.
00:15:08
Speaker
I think you kind of answered my next question, which I love is kind of how is a working relationship with the product team go from there,
Departmental Responsibility for VIP Programs
00:15:15
Speaker
right? Because in my history and previous companies, right product and either customer service or whoever don't always
00:15:24
Speaker
become best friends. I guess my question to you is, what department does a loyalty program kind of roll up to it? I'm assuming it's part of kind of the customer experience, CX side of things, right? And how is that working relationship with product? Can you help determine the roadmap, right? Maybe it doesn't alter the roadmap, but get things put on there.
00:15:43
Speaker
Great questions. So the first one I'll answer is around where does VIP normally roll up? And it varies in different companies. So in the past, I've rolled up within studios. I've rolled up to the president of the company. I've rolled up to the CMO of the company. And then most recently, the chief data officer of the company. And so it really depends on where you are in the journey of VIP.
00:16:11
Speaker
So at the very start, it made sense that I sat with the product team and fed the information. And then towards the end, as we had really expanded, it made sense that I was closest to the chief data officer so that every decision we were making was super data-driven and I'm really helping our players and deciding the call types and those call frequencies, all of that is important. You want to make sure that the players are comfortable with the frequency of contact and the reasons you're contacting them.
00:16:39
Speaker
All of that went into experimentation, so it made sense that we're closest. So that's the roll-up question. And then the other question you asked was really about the relationship with product. So I will say I was super, super lucky to have done my time at the Big Red Dog, which is Zynga, because the product teams there are very, very customer-centric. They really adore listening to the players. So when I talk about a listening strategy,
00:17:09
Speaker
Frank Chabot, when Frank Chabot came on board with Zynga, Frank was so customer centric. And we talked about one of the offsights, we talked about who should be at the table when you're talking about the element of fun within a game.
Integrating Player Feedback into Game Design
00:17:25
Speaker
And of course, as I said, the demographic doesn't always match the designers and their product managers. So what I had said was, I have hundreds
00:17:35
Speaker
even thousands of consultants that would be more than happy to come here and talk to the game teams. And Frank said to me, well, what do you need? We need funding to bring them here. So that was it. We started that off at very early stages. And essentially what we did was we did every week we had a focus call. So the account manager would organize a focus call with one of the VIPs who had given them really awesome information. The product teams don't need to hear, there's cheaters in your game, there's cheaters in the game, there's cheaters in the game.
00:18:04
Speaker
If that's the case, they know that they're working on the issue. However, they want to hear about, there's this awesome feature that I play in this other game that's just like this. And I spend more time in the other game because they have this feature. Or they want to hear, this frustrates me in the game. The grind shouldn't be so hard on this. They would give great examples. If I grind to this and I get the prize,
00:18:29
Speaker
The money I spent to grind is not, and they will work out, you know, and say that it's not as valuable. The price is not as valuable as what it's going to take for me to get there. And then the product teams are like, oh, this is amazing feedback. We need to dial this back and put less grind in this. And so, so in terms of, I was very lucky that they were so open to being customer centric. So what we put in place was a listening, a listening hope and the listening hope included.
00:18:55
Speaker
the weekly focus goals. We also did a quarterly focus group where we physically brought the VIPs to the studios and we worked with the insights team to actually do a half day and then we would bring the VIPs off on a trip around Alcatraz or something awesome and the product team would stay back and look at the roadmap and then the information that was given. Then they'd take that information and put it into a wider survey and have that surveyed. So now they've got this really awesome information from their VIPs
00:19:24
Speaker
They validate that with a survey and now they're back to building a product that the players really, really want. So in addition to that, then, we did a lot of product surveys and, uh, lobster surveys. So if you came to, came to the listening hub and looked, you wanted to listen to, Hey, why are our VA you're new to the company or you've just moved games or, you know, why do players churn from this game click and into the survey?
00:19:49
Speaker
And we kept that information refreshed. We also keep videos there of winners that just won our sweepstakes because they love to gush about the game and why they play. And it's a reminder of why players love to play your game. So it's good for employees to see that as well, to see the end user really, really adoring things. And you may have worked on the feature. You may have done the art. And we've heard comments like, I remember one comment was, the artists on this game are godly. They are godly creatures.
00:20:19
Speaker
So they gave me super complimentary and it reminds people why they do, why they build these amazing, wonderful games. So yeah, it's really important to get that relationship with product. And I think if it doesn't exist in your company today and you really wanna get to a space where a product and VIP are working really closely in tandem on a voice of the player type experience, I think the most important thing is
00:20:45
Speaker
to remember how the language studios speak in.
Highlighting Importance of Addressing Player Issues
00:20:50
Speaker
So studios speak in retention numbers, engagement numbers, monetization numbers. And it's really important when you're feeding back information to them that you feed that in with that information because it becomes more valuable to them. For example, you have a break in the game. You have 20,000 customer service tickets in the queue because there's a break in the game.
00:21:13
Speaker
at very kind of low cost in comparison to some other costs in game making. But now you've got 50 VIPs who've churned from the game because of this issue. And you're able to say these players are our most valuable players. They play seven out of seven. They've been with us for five years or more. And when you add that data in, the issue becomes much more of a code red than it is. And the studio want to fix the most important things to their players.
00:21:42
Speaker
So furnishing them with that information is really what they need. So building a reputation with the product team at a point, we were at a point where if there was a
00:21:55
Speaker
a bug in the game, or there was an exploit, sorry, in the game. And data are in looking, we don't know why revenue is down today, we don't understand what's happening. And they would call the VIP team, in particular, the director of VIP that worked with me in Zynga, and say, hey, what's going on over there?
00:22:13
Speaker
And she would just pick up the phone and chat to somewhere where everybody goes, hey, what's going on out there? And they'd say, there's an exploit in round three. If you go into this and you keep clicking this button, you just win, win, win, win, and they share it across all of the social sites. So it's really important to have that close relationship with the product teams.
00:22:33
Speaker
the grind and someone reaching out like, why aren't you playing anymore? The grinding was just too much for me. There's some games I've been playing where it's just like, all right, I can't just do this anymore. I'm getting nowhere and I'm doing the same thing over and over again. It's fascinating to think that there are studios and it's also fascinating to me that I don't always hear from them, which I get. I'm not a VIP, which maybe I can work on that. But like, you know, it's interesting to think that there's companies doing that. And it kind of goes back to, as you were just kind of mentioning a little earlier, it's like, for smaller studios, I want to get started with it, like,
00:23:04
Speaker
How do you justify spending money on a program when you don't necessarily have users who are ready to go yet?
Demonstrating ROI of VIP Programs
00:23:09
Speaker
Or again, it comes down to timing, right? When is the right time to look into something like that?
00:23:13
Speaker
That's a difficult one for anybody, is building the business case that gets you to a space where you can show the projected ROI. So there are two things in that. One, you need to know how to show the projected ROI so that you can say, when you've got PMs and engineers working on different features that have a projected ROI on them, you need to do the same thing. You're working for a gaming company.
00:23:37
Speaker
let's throw another wall and stay with sticks, right? So it's important that you do that. So the business case is always very important. And building that is all about using that same language that I talked about earlier on, looking at your data and saying, here, if we can get a lift of X percent, then this is how much that will equate to in terms of dollar value.
00:23:59
Speaker
So if you're starting off and you're in a position where you really want to go from cost to profit, if you're in support or you're in marketing and you want to kick off, I think the most important thing to do is to work on the business case, to justify the investment.
00:24:17
Speaker
And that is part of, as you said, at the top of the call, I'm a co-founder at Surge ROI, which is a company that just built a VIP CRM system. And it's like a strategy, VIP strategy in a box essentially is what it is. But we also have a partnership with Keywords Studios and Keywords Studios are now doing a new VIP service line. And so essentially what we want to do is as part of that,
00:24:42
Speaker
help the person and the client side and the game side build that business case that shows the justifiable, let's do a pilot program. We'll do a pilot for six months. It really is an iterative process. You start off with a pilot program, you say, this is the projected upside we're going to get. How you find that definitive upside, it's really difficult.
00:25:05
Speaker
for these people to try and prove what the projected upside would be without this eureka moment that we had at Zynga. So when I moved over and started working really closely with the data organization within Zynga, one of the things that we talked about was whether a game is on an upswing or whether it's kind of tapering off, the upside of VIP management should not change.
00:25:31
Speaker
So if there's a problem in the game or the game is soaring for popularity wise, the percentage upside that you're bringing from VIP management should not
Pilot Programs to Prove ROI
00:25:39
Speaker
change. So we started to look at different metrics that would actually show that. And the metric we came up with was VIP ARPU, which is average revenue per VIP user. So we have a total 20% holdout.
00:25:52
Speaker
And the same in the surge ROI system, CRM system, we've got a 20% holdout. And what it does is it allows you to kick off a pilot and start your VIP program with the strategy in a box and essentially look for the upside after six months. It takes six months to build a relationship, which is why we do it in increments of six months. Otherwise, it's a marketing campaign.
00:26:14
Speaker
one or two emails, maybe a phone call, is a marketing campaign. So after six months, you can say the relationships are built, this is the definitive upside. And then you can look at that in terms of dollars. So if you look at, say you get a 7% upside from VIP management test versus control, when you look at the average revenue between your 80% group and your 20% group, you see 7% lift. And so then you go and do the math and say, OK, we're only talking to 80% of the base.
00:26:43
Speaker
And in this case, let's just say 80% of all game revenue comes from the VIP base. And then there's a 7% lift. So the calculation, the math calculation is 80 by 80 by 7, which gives you a net upside of 4.48%. And then you can actually, so of all the previous annual game revenue then, you can say, we can bring you 4.48% in addition. And that might be $4 million or maybe $20 million, whatever it is.
00:27:10
Speaker
depending on the size of your game and your your revenue your annual revenue and so essentially what you want to do is every six months you want to say okay we've achieved that now we're going to add more heads and we're going to talk to more of the vips and as such we expect to get linear increase of x percent so now your percentage starts to grow up
00:27:31
Speaker
And you're doing it every six months because you want it to be an iterative process. You're trying to find where that saturation point is, where you're not getting diminishing returns for every head that you add. So it comes down to a lot of experimentation, a lot of history, you know, that, you know, an experience.
00:27:52
Speaker
But essentially, that business case is all important so that you can show the definitive upside. And your pilot program then just becomes your success metric. So once you've done your first six months, you're not talking about projections, you're talking about actuals because you've just achieved the 7% lift or the 4.48 in terms of net. And then you continue to do that. Every six months, you just keep adding more heads and more heads, and you keep seeing the linear increase in your percentage upside. And then for companies that have multiple games,
00:28:22
Speaker
then the person who is championing this on this side, whether it's marketing, product, or support, the person who's champion is looking to expand not just into the rest of the VIP base for that game, but also into other games, because now they've got a six-month pilot with a proven upside. A lot of data. I love that. Lots of cool information. I had some questions, but
00:28:46
Speaker
In the middle of the podcast, what we'd like to do is kind of a fireball around where I just throw some random questions that you need to just
Gemma's Personal Fireball Round
00:28:51
Speaker
answer quickly. I promise they're easy questions. Good to go? Yeah. If you're going to go to a bar, what is your drink order? Jameson Ginger Hill. Okay, that's just your home, right? In Ireland right now. What did you have for breakfast?
00:29:09
Speaker
A ham sandwich because in Ireland everybody eats sausages every morning and I'm sausaged out now at this point. Definitely. OK, last book you read. I reread The Voltage Effect. Dream Vacation. Mauritius. What was that? Mauritius. OK, last one. Last game you played.
00:29:38
Speaker
trivia crack, actually. Nice. It's still around. Awesome. Love it. Okay, back to the regular scheduled program. Good job.
00:29:49
Speaker
I love the concept of adding people to the program. You start light, you keep adding it. This is kind of a two-part question. Do the voices in the room eventually become too saturated or too many people in there, or as I like to say, too many cooks in the kitchen? And then is VIP only defined by the amount of money I'm spending in the game?
Expanding Definition of VIPs
00:30:11
Speaker
Too many voices in the room. Can you define that? What do you mean in the focus groups? I guess, yeah. You were talking about adding more people. Well, I guess you were talking about adding more people to the program, which is the focus groups, right? Then is it just too many people? Yeah.
00:30:25
Speaker
So no, we keep them separately because it's really widely known that if there is a loud person in the group that people tend to follow their opinion. So when we keep them separately in different rooms, and we really get them to play and we get everybody's opinion, so that we can get good stuff to put into the surveys. So it's more focus groups you're running, it's not bigger focus groups, it's just more of them.
00:30:48
Speaker
Yeah, and in terms of adding to the program when we add more account managers to the program. So if you start tomorrow, what we suggest at surge and Keyword Studios is that you start with the top 25% of your VIP base and you give them one to 2000.
00:31:05
Speaker
account managers to VIPs. And the reason we do that is because there's a lot of experimentation on the cadence of contact, you know, in terms of retention, engagement and monetization. What is the optimal number of calls? As I said, you do not want to be annoying your players to meant too much with calls. And so essentially, we've worked out that this is the optimal number of contacts is twice a month, which means the bandwidth that the account manager can do that's 2000 to every one VIP, every one VIP account manager.
00:31:32
Speaker
And so, as you start to expand, you're 25%, you're expanding downwards and into the lower tier VIPs who are moving up, by the way, because they're spending. So the growth, and we're retaining more because we're giving them VIPs. So in terms of, there's always space to add more VIPs. There's never a point where, well, we had never reached a point where we had a saturation point, which is fantastic.
00:32:03
Speaker
So that was your first part, was too many voices in the room. And the second part? It's more of a definition of what is a VIP,
Social Influencers as Gaming VIPs
00:32:10
Speaker
right? Is there any way to become a VIP without spending a lot of money in the game?
00:32:14
Speaker
So yeah, so I definitely believe there is a huge opportunity for SPPs, what I call SPPs, and social power players. So essentially, if you look at a VIP who, if you have a matrix and you're looking at a VIP around their loyalty, their level of loyalty, their level of spend, you know, that kind of thing, the segment that they're in,
00:32:37
Speaker
and that's kind of like a traditional VIP. And then you look over on the other side and you say, okay, these are VIPs who maybe have an audience on Twitch, maybe they have an audience on YouTube, and they are bringing a lot of players to the game. For example, some of the influencers that are
00:32:55
Speaker
you know, there's the side games where you just you're opening your gotcha and they want to see what you've gotten because you're an influencer. So those people I definitely feel like if they turn from a game, they're taking a lot of people with them. So it's really important that companies focus on social power players as well, which means
00:33:12
Speaker
The Matrix, instead of having your loyalty level revenue, that was kind of traditional metrics. On this side, you're going to have the number of followers they have, the number of people they're connected to in the game. If you have the opportunity to connect with friends within the game, how many are on the network actively playing that this guy or girl is actually playing with? So there's lots of opportunity to do that. And now there's a whole new genre that's coming out, which is
00:33:40
Speaker
VIP for the social influencers. So it's essentially making sure that your social influencer who is driving a lot of players to your game is happy. You know, so not just, you know, that they're very happy that in the, and they continue to play your game because they're bringing people there. So, and that's, that's kind of the newest, I would say, in the VIP genre.
00:34:04
Speaker
that it's super new, but I mean, it's new to being getting treatment and being treated as a particular segment. I've seen a lot of that recently with gaming companies where when I go in, they say, Well, what about these guys? You know, so we've got 123, you know, and they're treated right now as if they are marketing partners with companies. But realistically, they should be being treated like their VIPs.
00:34:27
Speaker
for the company, because, you know, that's that's the way they they're, they're ultimately bringing a lot of players there and retaining players for you. So you've got a retention model. And so when they are expanding their network of followers, those people are all engaged with one another. So it's this huge, big engagement net that they're creating themselves. And they shouldn't make it make sense to kind of play both roles, right? They are a marketing tool for the company, because they are talking about your game, but you need to treat them like a player as well and a VIP player. So they get that feeling as well, right? You don't want to help them
00:34:58
Speaker
You don't want to, I'm trying to think of like a shooting game, right? You don't want to give them things that make them too good, but you want to make sure they feel special in the game or they're going to keep talking about it, keep playing it and send it to their audience. Yeah. And part of doing that, Greg, is really having their voice heard by the product team. So it's really hard when you have, some VIPs have spent a lot of money in these games. So when you're doing a sweepstick for an iPad or an iPad giveaway,
00:35:24
Speaker
These people don't need you to buy them an iPad. So it's really important that you lean into your base and understand what's valuable. So for example, we did one where we had 30 minutes with an artist, the artist from the game, who will actually will give you an iPad, but the cover will be designed by the original artist.
00:35:42
Speaker
will have your favorite character on it and will build you into the cover. Those are the things that you just can't buy that are really special to VIP players. It's important to lean in, and those are the ideas or things that will appeal to the influencers. If they're getting a lot of money to do what they do, having something super special that's just for them is definitely something that companies should lean into.
00:36:11
Speaker
That's an awesome point you bring up, right? I think some things are more, not more valuable than money, right? But, but someone's going to look at this and say, this is a unique thing that I have.
Player Loyalty and Account Manager Stories
00:36:20
Speaker
And that brings me to kind of this next question, which I don't know how much you're allowed to share, but like at Zynga, and obviously had the experience prior with the, with the, the real money gaming, but like, was there a, Oh my God moment at Zynga, like we got something here. This is like a light bulb moment where everyone just went, Oh shit. Like, are there any stories you can share about that?
00:36:40
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely had the biggest Eureka moment was when, I mean, we had a lot that VIP is very much valued. I think it truly is. But the biggest moment first was when you're going into a room and everybody's talking about VIP spend, and you've got so many people who have influence over that group. So you've got the VIP department, fine. Then you've got the product department, you've got live ops, you've got central marketing, you've got lifecycle marketing,
00:37:09
Speaker
You've got user acquisition retargeting. So everybody is trying to massage that base, the full base, but in particular, the VIP base, because they're our most loyal players. And it was really difficult to extrapolate all that noise and actually show this is the definitive dollar volume. And it was that moment when we discovered, hey, there is a metric here that takes away all that noise. And just like the average revenue per VIP user, those who receive VIP treatment versus those who do not,
00:37:39
Speaker
We can very definitively say. And it came about in that I did a, I was doing a math course, a remote math course. And I had, I asked a young product manager to, he said, and I was very senior when, when he left thing, but
00:38:00
Speaker
At the time, he was fairly new. And I asked him to be my math mentor. And so we were doing this, you know, my math studies when I was in San Francisco. And then I asked him one time, he said, Give me a real problem today. Give me a real problem. I said, Well, you know, the big problem is that I can prove the definitive upside. And he said, Let's stay in this room until we find the metric that proves the definitive upside. And we were, you know, it was like, I felt like at the time, when I look back, and it feels like it was one of those, um,
00:38:25
Speaker
was the moment when he's on the boards in the Goodwill hunting. That's what it felt like. And we eventually had this eureka moment. And so I had to go then with the presentation in front of all the PMs and say, hey, this is what we're saying is the definitive upside. And if we put this test versus control in, will I have any pushback on the fact that this is definitively coming from VIP? And the answer was, makes sense. Go ahead. That's the beautiful metric.
00:38:53
Speaker
And it was just such a eureka moment because I'd spent so long trying to, you know, and so a big up to Ryan Glassen, if he's listened, he was definitely very instrumental in that eureka moment. So I want to kind of back up here and ask about Gemma, right? When you were growing up in grade school and university, maybe you dreamed of becoming a co-founder and founder of a loyalty program for mobile games, but what were you dreaming or aspiring to be when you were growing up
00:39:23
Speaker
So I think I fell into real money gaming for sure in two decades ago when I started, I fell into it, but
00:39:30
Speaker
What really, really struck me was how passionate people are about their games. You wouldn't believe the amount of letters. I have a box on my desk at home, and it's all these letters from people saying how much they love their game. And they're absolutely obsessed with their game. And then when we started to apply VIP management, it was like they love their account managers as much as they love their game.
00:39:55
Speaker
I don't want to make this sound sad or anything, but, you know, I remember when there was the 900 VIPs on the spreadsheet and just me before we grew this amazing team at Zynga is having my alarm set on Irish time to message the VIPs, Happy Christmas, you know, and on Christmas day. And I remember getting messages back from a couple of them saying, you're the only person who's contacted me.
00:40:19
Speaker
All I have in this world is my game, you know, and then you reach out in contact. So it really was a genuine, I just fell in love with the fact that you, you can layer on human interaction on top of the passion people have for games. You know, we got a lot of communication from VIPs.
00:40:37
Speaker
who felt that there was one in particular that really resonates with me was that her son was autistic and the game, he wouldn't engage with anything except our particular game. And essentially she wrote to us to say, listen, I think the board of education should actually implement this for all autistic kids, you know, gaming. And it was just so like,
00:40:59
Speaker
It made me feel like I wanted to build something that really not only embraced people for love in their games, but also embraced people themselves and showed them loyalty. Because you don't have to pick up your phone and play the same game all the time. You have so many games to choose from. It's really difficult to, MOTD is pop-up, pop-up, pop-up, to try and get people to engage because of
Community Building and Player Relationships
00:41:25
Speaker
a pop-up. But then when you start building a relationship between a account manager and a VIP,
00:41:30
Speaker
It becomes something much more solid in its foundation and keeps, retains players. And I've met some amazing in-person and over the phone. We did a lot of in-person events and just wonderful, wonderful people that just love the game in every genre. And it's just so wonderful to sit in a room and have somebody just talk about how passionate they are about their game and how like that their son is so connected with the game who's autistic or
00:41:59
Speaker
You know, I play my game every day because I have friends in Farmville that, you know, they're my family now. Or, you know, you saw the story recently, Words with Friends, where some really young guy met with an 80-year-old woman for Thanksgiving. It was all over all, the social media, through Words with Friends, because they'd been competing against one another. So it's that really that made me fall in love with the idea of loyalty and VIP and rewarding people for having that level of loyalty to their game.
00:42:26
Speaker
That's an awesome way to look at it. You know, we talk about community a lot in community building because games are communities. Today we actually launched a podcast with someone named Irina Pereira and she's building a studio and it's about multiplayer online RPGs. And she said it's about community building. A lot of people through Warcraft or other games meet their significant others, meet their spouses. And it's fun to think of how all this stuff really connects on the back end of the game, right? Loyalty will keep people active. They'll keep a community go and the community will keep involved.
00:42:56
Speaker
there's clearly a bunch of building blocks here that just have to be put together and to build this thing that works. And once you have these players playing, keeping them engaged, I think it's just such a great story to hear. And I know you're part of a Women in Games member, and they also do inclusion by design, right? It doesn't matter who you are, what you are. When you're playing a game, you're a player of the game, right? And you might as well build that bonding relationship. And I think that's an awesome way to look at loyalty. So I appreciate you sharing that story.
00:43:25
Speaker
One of the things I did want to ask, because everything we're hearing, it sounds really great, but for the VIP player, they have an account manager.
Concerns About Sales-Focused VIP Management
00:43:35
Speaker
What separates them from this just being a sales pitch to the player itself? Like, hey, Gemma, we see you haven't spent money in a while. What's going on? Obviously, there is a little bit of a salesy side to it, but how do you separate the sales pitch from the account manager if that question makes sense?
00:43:53
Speaker
It does make sense. And it is something that is definitely a question that comes up when we're out there talking to people about surge or ROI and the CRM system. People are afraid that it's a heavy sales tactic. And like I said, you're at the start with the back to pay. The players have issues, right? And they want their issues fixed. So the initial reach out is always to build a relationship and make sure the game is going well for the player.
00:44:23
Speaker
We don't have hard sales targets to say, this is what you've got to hit this sales and we bring the gong when you get a sale or nothing like that. It's really about retention and engagement. You know, the upside in terms of revenue is used to scale the program and continue to invest in it.
00:44:42
Speaker
but essentially it's really around engagement and retention. And so essentially there's a few ways. So A, even if they're reluctant to submit their phone numbers, so let's take poker as an example. So the genre is not a genre that's very much let's stay on the phone and talk for three hours. It's like, give me a deal.
00:45:00
Speaker
What's the best deal you can do for me today? And so the very first time that they have an issue with their game, even if they've decided not to submit their phone number, they'll remember, oh, I keep getting those emails from that guy. Let me get back to that guy. So they go into their email, and they reach out to them. It's a Saturday afternoon, and they get a very happy account manager to say, hey, Tony, I've been trying to contact you for ages. How's the game going? Well, I have a problem. So Tony's problem gets fixed, and then essentially, they start to build a relationship.
00:45:29
Speaker
And the report is really built around if you spend hours every day playing your games, which our account managers do as well, it's really great to have somebody to converse with about that, like particular strategy games, you know, like where there's a complex element to it. And you really want to talk to somebody about, you know, your game and how you've progressed and, you know, what your strategy is and that kind of thing.
00:45:50
Speaker
And so your account manager is really, really useful for that. So they definitely build a friendship and an allyship with the account manager when it comes to sharing the passion for their game. But then in addition to that, we do have events. We have live events where we invite VIPs to events.
00:46:05
Speaker
We also do the sweepstakes every single week, so they are imminent chance for gamifying, so they're purchasing anyway. We're not pushing you to purchase, they're purchasing organically. So we're saying, hey, like any other loyalty program in credit cards, travel, anything like that, you are building up points so that you get something back. So in this case, the VIPs were saying, hey, you're purchasing anyway, you've got X number of entries into the sweepstakes to win,
00:46:32
Speaker
a trip to Napa in the case of Amazon Express, or a trip to Vegas in the case of Casino, or your garden furniture in the case of Spades. It's really important that you customize the price to what the VIPs value so that they don't feel like it's a sale. They understand. When their account manager calls them, hey, how's the game going?
00:46:59
Speaker
anything I can do for you and then oh by the way our sweepstakes on at the moment and it's garden furniture and I know you love hanging out in the yard but you get your grandchildren so you know it's it's it just want to make sure that you know how the mechanics work and that kind of thing so they definitely do feel and we also do this thing
00:47:19
Speaker
So as you mentioned at the top, when I was at Zynga, I was a VP, I had support, so everything player facing, customer experience, player facing, sorry. And so we used to take in random comments from tickets and support and from VIP. And essentially all the VIP ones, our manager there was, what will our players thank us for?
00:47:39
Speaker
and so the players would constantly VIP is constantly saying the reason they stay in the game is because of their account manager because they feel valued they feel heard they say i've done focus calls he's put me on a focus call with the studio i saw my feature in the game this is unbelievable how you guys listen to your players and they truly understand that we're trying to be or we're trying to be sorry zinga is a customer centric
00:48:02
Speaker
Company and we try to fast follow in terms of with surgery and our relationship with keyword studios is we want to make sure that that mantra is maintained and that this strategy in the box and the CRM system which is built to deliver all of those
00:48:22
Speaker
all of those call types and frequencies and all the things that benefit the player, as well as the training with the team managers and account managers that Keywords Studios are offering in their new line of business, then it matches that and it puts the player first all the time. And the listing strategy is going to be a big part of that to make sure that we're really helping the product teams
00:48:47
Speaker
connect with their players in a very strategic way as opposed to, there's a lot of executives right now who are looking at app stores in the morning on their way to work and they're just looking at reviews in the app store and they're gauging sentiment of their base that way. Where it's really important that you're surfacing the right information and the volume comes through customer support. So customer support's got to lead in terms of this is where all of the information comes from.
00:49:15
Speaker
Should the information suppliers should always be support because they've got the biggest number of tickets that are coming in and they can assess the sentiment in a more qualitative way. But certainly from a VIP standpoint, having those individuals talk to the studios and really gives a value out for not just the studio, but also for the player. They feel heard, they feel listened to. And this kind of leads into what I think is my final question. It almost sounds like a trickle down effect.
00:49:43
Speaker
make the people who play the game a lot, who spend a lot of money in the game happy, understand what features they are using or are not using, provide it to the product team.
00:49:52
Speaker
kind of trickles down to the product team.
Turning Support into Profit with VIP Management
00:49:55
Speaker
Product team can make changes and the general base of the game is happy because they're seeing some issues or some bugs or some weird quirks for lack of better words that might be happening, kind of resolved. And one of the things we hear about a lot recently is like, how do I make my customer support center instead of a cost center, a profit center? Is this one of those keys to kind of converting that logic from cost to profit? The IP is kind of like the
00:50:22
Speaker
So there's a pyramid and you can start off and you can start to generate revenue through your support function without going fully into VIP. So VIP is kind of like if you want to get the biggest jump in terms of revenue generation, VIP is the way to go because it tried and tested strategy sitting in a box so you can add the system, apply the heads and get that moving straight away. However, there are many other ways. So for example,
00:50:50
Speaker
Recently, the law changed in terms of all gaming companies being able to have their own stores. So right now, I think there's great opportunity with HelpShift, actually, to convert non-payers to payers. So when a player goes to the store and they navigate away, I believe it's for one of three reasons. One, I don't feel safe. I've never made a purchase here before. I'm used to the App Store. Two, I can get a better deal somewhere else. Or three, I actually have a problem and I can't make this purchase.
00:51:20
Speaker
So any of those three things can be fixed through Hubshift and the support function. So essentially you have a problem, okay, we're putting you through it to support. You want a better deal? You give the conversion agents the autonomy to offer a better deal. Or the last one, I don't feel safe. Well, let me take you through. This is our site. This is very safe, da-da-da, and you give them the script to make people feel very comfortable with making the purchase.
00:51:46
Speaker
And I believe that anything that is converted from non-payer to payer through that function in Helpshift, which is a pop-up, it's like an abandoned car chat. So it's a feature that Helpshift have. You do have to have the latest version of the SDK though, so everybody should update the latest version
Converting Non-Payers with HelpShift
00:52:03
Speaker
of the SDK. I know it's hassle, but everybody needs to do it because that's where you get the good stuff. So the proactive chat pops up and then the conversion takes place. Those conversion agents, the more,
00:52:15
Speaker
The more those guys are converting, the more then you can add the revenue that they produce for the next 14 days into your cart for going from cost to profit. So that's just one example. But what I would say is to take a wider view. Conversion on this end, it'd be low in terms of revenue generation, it might be lower.
00:52:36
Speaker
VIP is right up this end, you're delivering significantly to the bottom line if you apply full VIP management to your business. So that is obviously the top of the pyramid. However, in between all of that, you know your business more than anybody else. So what I would say, if you're a support individual or you're a marketing individual,
00:52:57
Speaker
You should come together, all of you, sit in a room and end to end map your customer journey and talk about, okay, where are the opportunities along the way here for us to reach out to our players?
Mapping Customer Journeys for Engagement
00:53:08
Speaker
If you are somebody who wants to go from cost to profit,
00:53:11
Speaker
There are audiences that are not being spoken to right now, because you've got marketing in the room, you've got support in the room, and you're talking about the different ways in which they are spoken to outside of the product itself. And so you talk about where is the opportunity here for us to, you know, dial into a particular behavior or segment to try and convert or try and bring them back to pay or back to pay is another one for low value non VIPs.
00:53:38
Speaker
And so that is important. So actually I will plug in that there. The partnership that we're doing with Keyword Studios right now and with Surge ROI, we're actually doing free workshops for Keyword Services clients where we go to their location and we actually do the end-to-end journey mapping and talk about where they can apply VIP management and speak to all of the groups from
00:54:04
Speaker
support marketing product and really bring the whole company as many as we can get in the room to looking at what does VIP look like for your particular and conversion sorry on VIP what does that look like for you and your end so these customers there obviously help shift customers already if there were keywords and
00:54:24
Speaker
And so it's really just about leveraging what you've got already. And then layering on top of that, should you wish to do a pilot for VIP, this is what it will look like. And this is the investment and all of that stuff. So I know there's probably going to be some non keyword studio customers listening to this. But I did want to say that I believe you send this out to your keywords client so that option is available. If this podcast has captured your interest and you're
00:54:52
Speaker
executive or you're somebody who's over one of these functions that we just mentioned, reach out to your contacts and keywords and we can get that workshop up and running and do it all in half a day so that everybody understands what it looks like for your particular company.
00:55:09
Speaker
That's awesome. I love the idea of mapping it out just end-to-end. I don't think many people probably take a look at the full user journey and kind of see these kind of points, bottlenecks, whatever you want to call it. We're opportunities, right? And I think that makes a lot of sense. And we will post that. I appreciate that offer. We will let our audience know that as well.
00:55:28
Speaker
With that, I think we're getting close to the top of the hour. Gemma, I really learned a lot. I think this is such a cool idea. I think for studios that aren't taking a look into this, it's an amazing way to take a look at your base and say, hey, how can we work with our base to learn more about the product, to kind of build better products, to help evolve our product and get all the benefits in return? I think it makes perfect sense. And before we go, I guess any final words, anything I'm missing, anything you'd like to share with the audience?
00:55:56
Speaker
The only thing I would say is get on the phones. Have somebody get on the phones. Start talking to your VIPs. Don't let tomorrow come on the VIPs churn. Get on the phone. Phones are back. You heard it straight from Gemma. Well, Gemma, again, this was an awesome experience. I thank you so much for coming out, being a part of the podcast. We'll have all information of Surge ROI. Gemma on our Player Engaged website. We'll put it on our socials. And again, thank you so much for taking the time today. I hope you have a good rest of your travels.
00:56:25
Speaker
Thank you so much, Greg, for having me. Really appreciate it. This was so much fun.