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Pixel Therapy: Why Games and Mental Health Go Hand in Hand with Eric Chou
41 Plays3 days ago
Description
Eric Chou started with a mod for Command and Conquer. Today, he runs Honor Games and works on the front lines of mental health. In this episode, we unpack the evolution of a community-built mod into a full studio, what it takes to shift from modding to indie development, and how mental health became part of Eric’s mission.
He shares practical advice for narrative design, community-building, and supporting others through tough times. This is a thoughtful conversation about ambition, burnout, and why games matter beyond the screen.
Perfect for game devs, modders, and anyone thinking about doing work that truly matters.
🎯 5 Key Moments and Timestamps
[06:50] From writer to narrative designer
Eric breaks down how he leveled up from fan fiction to building full story arcs in the modding scene
[13:30] Why leaving modding took years
Transitioning to indie development was not just a tech challenge but an emotional and creative shift
[20:25] Teaching economics through gameplay
Eric explains how Vultures blends factory management and stock market dynamics to build systems thinking
[27:00] Mental health is part of the mission
From working at 988 to designing a mental health card game, Eric explains how personal experiences shaped his path
[44:45] The Trigger Initiative
Eric shares plans to mentor unfinished indie games and help them reach MVP without becoming a traditional publisher
🧠 Big Takeaways
- Narrative design should support gameplay, not just live beside it
- Mods can create lasting impact long after development stops
- Mental health support starts with listening without judgment
- Education and game design are not mutually exclusive
- Indie support can be reimagined as community-powered mentorship
🔗 Links Mentioned
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Background
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to PlayerDriven, here's what you're about to listen to on today's episode. What happens when the Command & Conquer mod becomes something way bigger? This week on PlayerDriven, I sat down with Eric Chow, founder of Honor Games, and his story is wild.
00:00:12
Speaker
He went from fan mods to running his own game studio, and he's blending game dev with something you don't hear enough about, mental health advocacy.
Modding to Career and Gaming for Good
00:00:22
Speaker
You'll hear how to actually turn modding into a career, why narrative design still matters, and how gaming can be a real force for good.
00:00:30
Speaker
This episode is about purpose, passion, and building games with meaning. Tap that follow button for more episodes like this, and we're just getting started. This is Player Driven. Let's go.
Eric Chow's Journey and Command & Conquer Mod
00:00:45
Speaker
everybody, and welcome to Player Driven. Greg here. Today we are joined by Eric Chow. is the founder of Honor Games, and I'm really excited to talk about it because he has created a mod for one of my favorite games of all time, and we'll be talking about that a little bit.
00:01:00
Speaker
ah He is now the founder of Honor Games, where they're building out other games as well that they're working on. I'm excited to learn more about that. Eric, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you? I'm doing pretty good. I'm glad to be here.
00:01:12
Speaker
you know this is this is This is great. you I found you on LinkedIn. We were both going to PAX East and we connected. And I saw that you created a mod for Command & Conquer Tiberian Secret and it really took off and you created a studio out of it. So I'm excited to talk about that. And you also do a lot with mental health, which I think is very important. Top of mind for pretty much everyone that's out there these days in any
Mental Health and Gaming Industry
00:01:37
Speaker
industry. We see brutal in gaming. It's brutal in all places right now with what's going on. So how do you keep your mental health? And it's a ton of work to be working in mental health. So we thank you for that, first of all, and all you've gone through. But want to tell us a little bit about yourself and how you ended up where you are today?
00:01:54
Speaker
Yeah,
Beginning Modding and Narrative Design
00:01:55
Speaker
yeah. So it's it's quite a long journey, but ah basically in in terms of my modding experience, we started modding Command & Conquer Tiberium Wars back in summer of 2011. And we were we were doing a couple different, ah we we didn't realize just how much work it was.
00:02:15
Speaker
ah We ah basically introduced one we we introduced one full new faction into the game called the Artificial Systematic Intelligence. It's one of the first robotic factions ah that was fully introduced ah in the modding space.
00:02:30
Speaker
And um That actually took up a long, long, long, long time. And ah our original vision was to add three new factions to the game. We didn't realize just how much work that would be.
00:02:43
Speaker
but um But also, um aside from having, you know, development for assets and modding, we actually are, I made it a priority of mine to really include some good story elements as well.
00:02:59
Speaker
And that was one thing that I think I really take pride on is are narrative elements. And that's something that I really spent a lot of time ah back about almost about a decade ago.
00:03:14
Speaker
um And so that's kind of where my journey started. And we had about three or four other core people that were working on the project.
Independent Development and Community Role
00:03:23
Speaker
And unfortunately, none of them are ah here with Honor Games anymore. But um we've been in contact and things are things are nice. They just you know had other things to do with they with their lives.
00:03:35
Speaker
But um so that's kind of where the journey started for modding on ModDB.
00:03:44
Speaker
The platform put on by ah Scott Reismanus. I believe you have communicated with him in the past. Some of your listeners may be aware of the work that he's doing with Mod.io and making sure that user-generated content is is available to as many people as possible.
00:04:01
Speaker
ah For some mysterious reason, which I cannot figure out, but I guess it's a good thing, is we still get about 200 visits to Tiberium Secrets a day. a day.
00:04:12
Speaker
i don't quite understand this, but um you know it's it's it's great. It must mean that we were and still are providing a modding experience that people still enjoy um to this day after after we officially transitioned into independent development instead of modding.
00:04:32
Speaker
how So we're talking back in 2011, you found a group of individuals that wanted to work together to build Tiberium secrets for Tiberium wars.
Narrative Design and Storytelling
00:04:43
Speaker
and it's crazy. how How do you even, it i mean, i think this is, and correct me if I'm wrong, this is before UGC was really a thing. People were creating things and mods and putting them in game, but like, how do you find these people to collaborate with and build this passion project that you've been thinking about?
00:05:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. so So, we, to find these people, yeah most of us, well, some of us remember the, Some of us remember forums, or we still use forums, but they're not as ah and not as big as as they used to be. So ah that's where a lot of us were collaborating in the past um on the Command & Conquer forums, which no longer exist.
00:05:28
Speaker
ah But Reddit is a huge platform now, and and it was a decent platform back then as well. So to answer your question, we were finding people on different forums and things like that.
00:05:41
Speaker
So, you know, you released Tiberian Secrets. Well, first of all, I'd love to dig more into the narrative design behind it. You started telling me about the story when we were in PAX and I haven't done a podcast with someone in narrative design. and And I think about games and behind me is Starfield. One of the ones that came to mind is like, you make so many branching decisions to go down this line and eventually you've got to reconnect at some point down the line and you might be out here, but out here needs to eventually get back to here. So When you, when you started working on, on the Tiberian secrets, um, were you already a narrative designer? Did you learn it? Were you just a writer and you had to learn how to do something else?
00:06:23
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So, so, uh, I originally just was a writer. i originally just was a writer. And this actually goes back to a previous project that the, that if, if you, if people were part of the command and conquer community way back when that they might have, uh,
00:06:38
Speaker
a reaction to, which was ah Tiberium Twilight. Yeah. That was the game that a lot of people have were very controversial back in 2010. And there was a community project that was started called ah Tiberium Eclipse.
00:06:53
Speaker
And that was something that um was basically the community effort to try and fix or redo Tiberium Twilight ah in in all its aspects.
00:07:05
Speaker
um That was actually something that I started in november joined ah in November of 2010. And i carried and i carried my narrative interest to fix the story into Tiberium Secrets. And like it or not, that that actually drove a lot of the narrative decisions.
00:07:27
Speaker
And I was originally just a writer. i was just a writer. And then they made me co-lead of ah Tiberium ah Eclipse. And then that ah fell apart a little while later. But um the important thing about the narrative aspect, specifically in an in a mod for for for Command & Cochran and RTS, is to balance the the narrative aspect with the gameplay.
00:07:48
Speaker
That's something that I really think that... I really think that a Command & Conquer did very well is here's the narrative concepts, here's what's going in the story, and how do we match that with gameplay that that complements and works hand in hand, right?
00:08:06
Speaker
And that was something that that was really great about the designs and things like that. So what the story that I was kind of telling you, got telling you Greg, when when we met over at ah a PAX Llewellyn Boston um was where I kind of want, where I and what naturally would have potentially happened in my mind is in if ah Tiberian Twilight's story was actually fixed.
00:08:32
Speaker
um yeah And I guess the the way that I kind of did it was ah essentially, know, The Global Defense Initiative, GDI, ends up having a civil war over there ah over the issues that are over not really trusting Cain or trusting Cain about what he wanted to do with the future of humanity in Tiberia.
00:08:56
Speaker
um And then... um in In our story, Cain ends up leaving just as he ah he always said he would. He ends up ascending. Right.
00:09:07
Speaker
But the thing is, is that he only takes a few like, you know, relatively few people with him. And then it becomes the story of being left behind once your savior is gone.
00:09:20
Speaker
Right. And then that I think was actually a much more interesting story to look into instead of saying, oh, hey, Kane's the center of everything. Kane's always going to be there.
00:09:32
Speaker
In our story, Kane is no longer there And everyone's like, well, what do we do now? Right. And Nod gets pushed into the the Brotherhood of Nod gets pushed into the into the into the ruling ah order. And they are meant to now govern the world where.
00:09:52
Speaker
where GDI is kind of just holed up in their blue zones and not then just kind of like, well, we kind of failed and thereabouts. There's a lot more details and people can kind of look up Tiberium Secrets and we have an entire oh trailer and narrative ah as well as um and an actual PDF story that we actually ah had writers kind of put together with different characters and things like that.
00:10:19
Speaker
So that's kind of where the narrative elements kind of happen. ah But if someone's interested in in really becoming a narrative designer or or a story writer or just, you know, someone that cranks out stories for video games, you know, it's it's very, very genre specific.
00:10:36
Speaker
I think that's something a key to something key to understand. And, you know, just kind of follow your passion as to what you want to write and take it from there.
00:10:47
Speaker
I think that's so cool. I think, I mean, the fact that you were able to take a story that was already existing the Command & Conquer world, build upon it, make decisions that maybe they didn't want to make, or you did make it, and you had a team there to help
Transition to Honor Games
00:11:01
Speaker
you build it out. And you had this lore. I think everything is just so cool. And just being a fanboy of Command & Conquer, right? Like hearing where you wanted to go with it is so cool. I remember the fourth Command & Conquer got so much hate upon release because they tried to make it more into an e-sports game rather than the typical Command & Conquer style game. And I don't think it's ever fully recovered from that. But, you know, you you create Tiberium Secrets, right? And then you... Was that before after the actual formation of Honor Games? Or did did ah that come afterwards? So, yeah. so So Honor Games was officially formed in October of 2017. we...
00:11:39
Speaker
and um we we were transitioning out of Tiberium Secrets because we wanted to make our own indie games. So that was when that when that happened. But it did take us quite a long time to actually fully transition out of modding.
00:12:00
Speaker
So that was part of it. Can I ask why it would take so long to transition out of modding? yeah Yeah, that's a good question. ah The reason why it took so long to transition out of modding, a couple ah couple of reasons.
00:12:13
Speaker
The first is we were trying to both wrap up all of our modding work ah so that the product could be able to be supported and stand alone by itself, um the mods, without our ah direct involvement.
00:12:31
Speaker
So there were a lot of bugs and a lot of you know features that we that were ah we thought were important for quality of life, this and that, and stuff like that. so um And then also, um in the beginning of of independent development, um it was still a bit challenging to fully navigate that, which was which I think we can definitely um s sink some time into as well to discuss that that navigation of how we specifically navigated ah ah that kind of transition from modding to indie development.
00:13:04
Speaker
So you're talking, this all happened around the 2017 timeframe, maybe a little after, right? Because Honor Games was formed and you had to learn your kind of way from there. At that point, I think it's safe to say UGC was making comeback.
00:13:18
Speaker
Not that it was ever really gone, but then all of a sudden Fortnite was out, Roblox was out, Minecraft was out, and it didn't yet become what Monster has become Minecraft was, right? But When you started thinking about, hey, we want to create some new indie games, was it always you want to create your own indie game or you want to build another UGC type of experience for players or either or Yeah. so So as much as we would like to return to making UGC, um we realized that the community ah wanted Tiberium Secrets, but they also wanted, at least for us,
00:13:58
Speaker
They wanted us to see what our next horizon was. Right. And that kind of spoke to the core leadership at the time.
00:14:09
Speaker
ah We only had we originally had four core leadership members that had been with us since Tiberium Secrets. One of them started in 2011 with myself. His name's Fandor.
00:14:20
Speaker
Yeah. And that's his online handle. And then we also have another individual that was a narrative individual. His name was Japheth. Also his online handle. ah So we with with and then we also right now have another person that's still with us. But those are the two people that I just mentioned are no longer with Honor Games.
00:14:41
Speaker
um They left in December of 2021 for a variety of reasons. But To answer your question about like transitioning and you know looking at different aspects of UGC, I'm still in in relatively good contact with with Scott.
00:15:00
Speaker
And you know I still definitely look at the modding platforms. And when I was sitting down with him a couple of GDCs ago, ah Scott anyways, ah he was telling me that ModDB gets ah significantly more traffic than in VDB.
00:15:16
Speaker
ModDB used to have significantly more, and still does, significantly more engagement than IndieDB. And we've been trying to figure out why that is and how to encourage more indie developers to you know do their thing and be be available to the general community.
00:15:37
Speaker
and Okay. So what types of projects have you been working on? Can we talk about them?
Current Projects and Economic Simulations
00:15:43
Speaker
Yeah, of course. We can talk about them. um The main project that we're working on right now is called Vultures. It's a factory economic simulation with some stock market elements.
00:15:55
Speaker
ah Basically, what that means is you have a top-down view and you have a factory floor with different goods that are coming in different goods that are going out, and you have machines.
00:16:09
Speaker
ah that are converting these goods to other goods that are more profitable. And this is something that ah is scaffolding so that we intend to build ah both upon the actual ah product, but also something for for future.
00:16:27
Speaker
um I sat down with our lead dev, KamiDog, just the other day about our roadmap as to where we where were going to go with that. But that is our first major product. um it's It's a rather medium to large scoped game.
00:16:44
Speaker
So we'll see when that ends up being available. um However, we are ah posting our builds on itch.io as well as our Steam page.
00:16:54
Speaker
So um there is some limited testing that is able to be done there. So that's our first project. ah The second project that's currently in development that's only been in development for about one year is ah a game called Charge!
00:17:10
Speaker
exclamation point So ah vi you guys can find both projects on IndieDB. ah We actually just put out an update last ah week to and re-announce that this project is happening.
00:17:25
Speaker
So basically what CHARGE is, is it's narratively set in the endpoint of ah independent TIPSEC, which we will which we're looking we've been looking into for quite some time.
00:17:38
Speaker
um Independent TIPSEC is basically going to be a product called EOH, Equation of Humanity, but I can go over that later. But um CHARGE is a first-person shooter three v three laser tag game.
00:17:52
Speaker
where basically people are running around with different ah laser laser weapons, and we have a lot of unique mechanics that coupled with laser tag.
00:18:03
Speaker
So that's basically the two major things that we're working on right now. For Vultures, it's very interesting. You're going into a game that has economics in it, which I love. I've learned I love trying to balance like to economics in games.
00:18:16
Speaker
um And it's not that dissimilar than the economics in Command & Conquer, right? Conducting Tiberium. I mean, I guess Age of Empires, I'm thinking, has more resources.
00:18:26
Speaker
kind to Command & Conquer really only has the one resource. But did any of that resource collection, resource management... ah education or stuff that you learned from previous experience help you here?
00:18:40
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like one of the one of the main things that you know is definitely is definitely resource and and product product management, you know managing different like managing multiple different things that are going on at the same time.
00:18:53
Speaker
right and you know we have a lot of systems that that are doing that for the Vultures project. you got you got You got to bring your goods in, you got ah process you got to get the right machine to process the specific good, and then you got to figure out an appropriate price point to to sell it at.
00:19:16
Speaker
ah We're working on a couple of different mechanics to make this make this ah very holistic. ah But yeah, definitely. Our lead dev, Commie Dog, he's really interested in in in in the economy and making sure that that's something that um that's that's done right.
00:19:34
Speaker
Yeah, I've been we're doing a podcast with a gentleman who works in economics and was worked on a game. And it's just fascinating how how real world economics pretty much mirrors in-game economics for some games and how not predictable, but how you can start to understand how different things work if you understand how economics works. And I think it's kind of cool way to teach people this stuff.
00:19:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. i think you know ah you know we're kind of walking the line in edutainment, education, entertainment, but it's mainly for it's mainly a game. and But ah when i when I tell certain people about it that have more of an economic background, they get really interested specifically in the stock market simulation aspect.
00:20:18
Speaker
So we'll have to, we're looking very carefully. We actually do have an economic consultant on board somewhere. He's, you know, ah floating around. ah But ah we do tap this person every once in a while to to find out, you know, from an in economist's perspective, you know, how should we be doing things, right?
00:20:38
Speaker
When you are building, so you're building these games in Unity now, and previously, I'm not sure what Tiberium Secrets would been
Technical Development Challenges
00:20:46
Speaker
built. Is there a learning curve here from building UGC or mods?
00:20:50
Speaker
ah well Yeah, there're that there definitely is you know ah definitely is a a specific learning curve. ah Command and Conquer ah Tiberium Wars was on the Sage engine.
00:21:03
Speaker
um And now, ah you know, Vultures is in Unity and Charge is in Unreal. ah So there definitely is a learning curve, you know, depending on different programming languages that people are familiar with.
00:21:18
Speaker
ah depending on the entire user interface, learning all these different things. um Most of my experience is on the business and making sure that everything but the organization itself is is is taken care of.
00:21:32
Speaker
So i don't have I don't personally have as as much ah hands-on in the trenches with these engines. But there are a lot of different aspects that um you know should be considered.
00:21:43
Speaker
I think the most important thing, if people are considering looking at um you know transitioning from modding to indie, um is ah just just looking at the tools and this and the tools that exist. And know because a lot of these modding UGCs are more selective towards the the the specific genre and the specific game, right?
00:22:11
Speaker
you know, Unity and and Unreal are are more ah robust in that aspect. Yeah. And it's interesting how you kind of look at First of all, it's fascinating that you're tackling multiple engines at once. it's ah but I guess it's not you. so So it's brave for sure. But I like how you'll be able to say, hey, look at what we're able to create in this game and then this or this engine and this engine, right? And you can kind of see the differences. And I think it's kind of cool to be able to kind of straddle the line like that.
00:22:39
Speaker
Yeah. um I want to do my firewall round where I'm just going to throw some random questions at you. And we already know your your Fourth of July food, but let's go with what did you have for breakfast?
00:22:50
Speaker
Oh, I had eggs. What was the last show or movie you binge watched? Ooh, binge. ah That I really binge was Black Mirror.
00:23:05
Speaker
Black Mirror was awesome. but What game are you playing? As of right now, the Tempest Rising. um Me too. You were the one that told me about it and I downloaded it.
00:23:19
Speaker
It feels very Command and Conquer. I like it. It does. It does. um If you were to go to university today, what class would you take that you maybe haven't taken before?
00:23:31
Speaker
I think I would take more in the realm of sociology. Okay. Understanding how society works. Yeah. Interesting. And I guess let's talk about mental health, because that is something that is a i don't know if we'd call it a passion, but something that you work very much with and is important to you. And I do think it's related to sociology as well, but that's the only reason I make that connection. But how did your passion for mental health start?
Mental Health Advocacy in Gaming
00:24:05
Speaker
Yeah, so my passion for mental health and and where that kind of started was about a decade ago. A lot of these things start like, you know, a decade ago for me. I don't know why. But um i was I was studying psychology at UC Irvine.
00:24:20
Speaker
And um i was also part of ah and ah an organizer of um of a games guild um in this in the space of um this game called World of Tanks.
00:24:32
Speaker
And I ended up meeting someone that really ended up changing a lot of my perspective in my life. And he became my best friend for ah for a significant period of time. And he really supported me through a lot of different challenges when I was going through my schooling.
00:24:48
Speaker
And you know I ended up finding out that he had some mental health challenges himself as as well as ah you know minor selfhar ah self-harm tendencies.
00:25:02
Speaker
So yeah he would talk talk to me about it, about suicide and things like that. And I'd be like sitting there just listening to him, just waiting for talking, socializing over the internet.
00:25:12
Speaker
And I would feel so helpless. I wouldn't know what to do. And that's at least my external motivation is to be able to help. And I still carry it through, carry his ah memories through to this day.
00:25:28
Speaker
um in And we're no longer in contact for a variety of mysterious reasons. But I still carry that through to this day as to every time I pick up the phone when I'm working at 988, the National Suicide and Mental Health Prevention Hotline for the United States,
00:25:43
Speaker
um I still carry that. And that's kind of the external part of where it kind of started for me. But the internal part of where it started for me was back during that time as well.
00:25:55
Speaker
In summer of 2013, I was actually personally diagnosed with bipolar one. And, you know, I've been pretty open about that. I've actually somehow became a mental health advocate. I don't know how that happened, but it just kind of happened over time.
00:26:09
Speaker
but um But yeah, so that also happened. I went through my own journey. a lot of it is documented into in the book that I have written, um as well as I'm definitely open and talking about it, you know, with people.
00:26:22
Speaker
And, you know, the interesting thing about mental health Is that once you start talking about it, then everyone's like, okay, yeah, yeah, let's talk about it. But it's kind of breaking down that original, you know, stigma door and then opening it up and then seeing where it goes.
00:26:37
Speaker
Right. I think that's one of the beauties of community and gaming and you seem to have found it before. others yeah is you you find like minds, right? And some people might be troubled, and some people might be thriving, and some people might be in different parts of life. But you found the best friend on the other side of the headset that you probably never even knew what they looked like. And maybe you eventually met, but you bond and you play these games. And it's so funny on the type of connection you can have with someone by playing a game. I play games with my high school friends every night.
00:27:12
Speaker
And it's a stronger connection we had than when we used to hang out in high school because we're there for each other. And I love the motivation that, I mean, you care for this person and something, what troubled them troubled you, or at least got you interested in saying, how can I help this person? Right? Like, and yeah, it's tough from across the world or across the computer, but like there's things you can do. So, and this is a ah tough question for me to ask without even prepping you, but like, are there some key takeaways that,
00:27:43
Speaker
whether you're dealing with mental health or dealing with someone with mental health, like what are the one, two, three things you should be doing or checking in with? like Yeah.
00:27:55
Speaker
Ooh. Okay. how it Yeah. um All right. You're just going to get, give me a fast one. All right. Give me a hard ball. All right. Let's see. Hot potato. Let's see what I got. Okay. So I think if we were to break it down into the top three things, let's just stick with three.
00:28:11
Speaker
or the most important things in communicating with someone with mental health or about mental health
00:28:19
Speaker
is just making sure that you're active. The first is making sure you're actively listening, right? You know, as we're doing a podcast, where we're listeners here, but at the same time, just being there, right?
00:28:30
Speaker
Being supportive, being nonjudgmental. It's sometimes very hard to be nonjudgmental for some certain people, you know? um But so that's the first thing, active listening with not with not little to no judgment, all right?
00:28:46
Speaker
The second thing, Don't be afraid for ask for help You know, that's something that I really look at.
00:28:57
Speaker
and And I say this to our callers all the time. It takes strength to reach out for help. It's not something, it's not a weakness, right? And i I explain it like this. I say it takes strength to reach out for help because in reaching out for help, you show that you know your limitations and what you know and what you don't know.
00:29:19
Speaker
So, you know, that would be another key thing about mental health and and talking to people about it and just, you know, being able to open up.
00:29:31
Speaker
And I think the the third thing ah is really looking to educating both yourself and and other individuals um and, you know, just doing not just online stuff research, but looking up these different organizations that are local.
00:29:48
Speaker
Like one of them that's that's really good is, as most people in the mental health space know, there's an organization called NAMI, National Alliance on Mental Illness. this is This is just one of the of of the the many organizations out there.
00:30:02
Speaker
that are there. And obviously, of course, 988 is always out there for the suicide prevention stuff. But at the same time, I think the most important thing, if if people are kind of queasy or uncertain, or whether they want to open up to their friends and their family, or, you know, for some reason, it's interesting. ah You bring up a very good point about games and community. and I've been thinking about this for quite some time.
00:30:25
Speaker
it's it's It's very magical. you You have a connection over the computer, over the internet. And you care about that person. And they care about you. And it's it's a very fascinating thing.
00:30:39
Speaker
um And I just find that there are so many different potentials. I think I've been trying to figure figure out why this is for a very long time. And I think the reason why that is why ah but there are a lot of reasons, but I think one of the but um the culminating reason why games is such a pure form of connection is because people come there to play.
00:31:03
Speaker
And that's their own that's their primary, if not their only motivation when they boot up a game, is to play and socialize and connect. you know We're not there with different – some people are, but most people are not there with different agendas.
00:31:19
Speaker
Like, oh, hey, you know I want to get you to buy something from me. Oh, hey, ah I want this and that.
Gaming as a Platform for Connection
00:31:26
Speaker
But i think that's one of the key reasons why video games and just playing other games as well, tabletop – is such an important medium and why it allows for such deep and rich connection far beyond ah traditional in-person interaction.
00:31:48
Speaker
There's a lot there, and that was fantastic. Let's just kind of knock these three out. right Active listening ah should be a quality everyone works on no matter what you do. It's amazing how much active listening can change a full conversation. I'd say probably 90% of the people don't do active listening. that that and and Doing the podcast has significantly helped me pay attention because I look over here and I get distracted and and crap happens, but active listening is super important. And I think it's shows up most respect when someone you can repeat back to someone, what they said to you, because it shows that you absorbed all that.
00:32:25
Speaker
Second is don't be afraid to ask for help. Sorry. I wrote it all down. So i'm looking here, right? I think it's so funny. So with one of my children, we're looking at where he's ADHD and,
00:32:36
Speaker
um it was tough and it's nothing that's going to ruin his life. And we know that, but at the same time, like we can see where he struggles and, you know, ah we started getting him help and now we see other parents come to us and say, how did you recognize that? What were the signs? What, like, like everyone's going through this stuff, man. Everybody everybody has someone or knows someone that's going through this stuff. And, and,
00:33:01
Speaker
You know, it's just not normalized to your point because people are afraid to ask for help. But the truth is, it's more normal to be diagnosed with something these days than not. It's just part of human nature now. We just need to ask for help. it And something I've learned to love is TikTok.
00:33:17
Speaker
specifically because I found different people talking about how do I deal with my child that's going through this or how do I do it? And I get it. It's TikTok and you got to take each one of these with a grain of salt, but it's great to hear other people's perspective on how they approach the same type of challenges that we can face We're in this age of learning that's so amazing because there's so much information at our fingertips.
00:33:38
Speaker
You just need to be motivated to go out there and actually look it up and do your own research, right? Which goes to your third point of education. There's so much data out there and some of it's crap data. We get that, right? But there's so much data out there that...
00:33:52
Speaker
part of this comes back to you. It's on you to educate yourself, to you to learn, to you to take the time. And the fact that you found that person, you you did that and you figured this stuff out, I think is so cool. And and I think the reason that games are ah kind of a safe space are that for online games, at least,
00:34:10
Speaker
people are anonymous at first and people are completely different when they're anonymous, right? You'll have trolls, you'll have bullies, you'll have really nice people, you'll have everything and you can let your guard down and then you can find like-minded people that are like you and you start to become more comfortable. And I think...
00:34:26
Speaker
Your point was right, that that people are there to play. They kind of let their guard down. But I think it's just more so just being around it by those like-minded people. And I think that mask helps, right? Like, I may not want to let you know who I am until we become better acquainted. And then we start talking and I get more comfortable opening up to you. I think...
00:34:44
Speaker
Everything you stated there, Eric, was so powerful. And I give you so much credit to take the time after you went through an experience with a friend at the time said, hey, I want to learn how to deal with this. And I think that's such a huge step. And nothing but the utmost respect. Thank you so much for sharing that story.
00:35:03
Speaker
Of course. Of course, Greg. Do you take a look at this mental health stuff and connect it to Honor Games? Are they two separate passion projects? I do. i have connected them together.
00:35:16
Speaker
um i actually, on our website, I have a store page and I actually put together a mental health role-playing card game, ah which I'm selling on my website.
00:35:27
Speaker
But yes, I have put them together. um And, you know, people go, oh, you know, I like to i like to say well two things. so ah One on your last point.
00:35:38
Speaker
um But um but just so but don't don't put all your eggs in one basket unless you made the basket, right? so So I think that a lot of you know we lot of what I'm doing here is making the basket. you know this is This is my life. This is our life. you know Everyone, you know you're building your podcast. You're building all these things. They're just as we are. And it's it's important because when you put things together,
00:36:06
Speaker
yeah Like, oh, you know, you you put all your, you know, your passion together. And what if it fails? What if it doesn't work out? Oh, no. But well, yeah, maybe it won't go where you expect it to go. But you will if it's if it's passion driven first, you will find the the meaning and the fulfillment and eventually the success will come.
Personal Reflections and Future Goals
00:36:27
Speaker
And what that specific success looks like, that's up for you to decide. That's not for someone, someone you know even like you know family or or parents or or siblings or whoever. That's not for them to say, okay, hey this is how I define success.
00:36:42
Speaker
You're not successful, right? um Which is something that's been frustrating in my personal life with my family. But that's just kind of how it goes. you know Not everyone understands you know the way that the world is shifting.
00:36:58
Speaker
loaded again, Eric. you You're just full of insight here. it's I love it. And I think you have such a ah positive approach to this, which I respect because mental health is not something easy to talk about. But the truth is it it shouldn't be difficult.
00:37:12
Speaker
And I think that's the thing is we just need to make it not difficult to talk about. But Maybe some people are just afraid to bring it up. And I think maybe that's a stigma that people don't want to talk about it if they're going through it. But I think that's something I always loved about Xbox is they build all those accessibility controllers and they let people who have disabilities play games because that's what they want to do. And when you're disabled or you're going through something and you can't play a game,
00:37:38
Speaker
that's the community you want to be able to connect with, right? And I love all the initiatives they have to get everybody gaming because to block anyone from getting into a video game is the most asinine thing to do because the more people that play games, the better for everyone. It's not like it's going to ruin anyone's life. So why not open up games to everyone that can play games and not, it goes against, it's for females in gaming, LGBTQ plus hit people in gaming, X,
00:38:04
Speaker
people who are disabled, right? Like everyone should be able to play a game. There should be no blockers to this. It's crazy that people think there should be. Well, I'm not sure if people think that there should be blockers. I don't i don't know anyone or have heard anyone that would actually make that case.
00:38:21
Speaker
I think they just realize that it's just too expensive to to to make it accessible to these different things. I've actually been looking recently, actually, I'm booting up another the project. Oh, geez.
00:38:31
Speaker
I'm booting up another project to look into accessibility in games and stuff like that ah from a vision perspective. ah But um I think the aspect of ah why...
00:38:42
Speaker
people are at least a little bit hesitant about mental health specifically is that it means that you have to put yourself out there.
00:38:54
Speaker
It means that you're literally putting your your thought processes and your cognition and what's going on in your life out there to the world. And I've noticed on Reddit ah and other platforms, but mainly Reddit, a lot of people seem to be okay with doing that on on ah on an anonymous internet type of situation, right?
00:39:16
Speaker
And that's, I think, the magic of what you were going saying back back about video games is, you know it It is generally anonymous. You don't know their real name. You don't know where they live or what's going on.
00:39:28
Speaker
And you know there's a concept in governance, in sociology and philosophy called the veil of ignorance. And basically, I'm not sure if anyone has heard of this term before, but basically what that is, is it's saying, you know nothing about the other person and and the people, but you need to make policies and governance laws and and and and do stuff as if you knew nothing about them.
00:39:58
Speaker
So that means that that means that you know that you try to be as fair as possible, right? And I find that really interesting. and i And I really look into applying that to how games, video games, and over the internet and stuff, because we we literally know and very little or nothing about the other person, and yet we're supposed to play and interact. And yet,
00:40:19
Speaker
you know We are still able to do that. and i And not just do that, but do it very well and and and find people across the internet, across the world, across the computer to be able to socialize, connect, community, all of these things.
00:40:38
Speaker
The power of video games, you know, it really is. It's... It allows a shy person to not be shy. It allows them to take that first step. The problem is, to your point, going out in the real world and exercise that.
00:40:51
Speaker
And that's maybe something beauty of but like games like Pokemon Go, where like they get you moving. i love the idea of games making you go outside, making you interact, and we're seeing more community-based games, but how do you get that happen in IRL for real, for lack of better words?
00:41:09
Speaker
Indeed. Indeed. that's that's That's the magic of video games, the magic of the internet.
Future Goals and Team Expansion
00:41:16
Speaker
Cool. So I want to hit it off with one last question about Honor Games before we go there. As a longtime CNC advocate, and you are as well, you're building an awesome laser tag game that we talked about at PAX East, you talked about here.
00:41:31
Speaker
Have you put a bigger thought on where you want to be in, say, three to five years? In three to five years for Honor Games, I would like to have one more big project kind of done.
00:41:43
Speaker
And I think what, depending on what that big project is, there's a couple of candidates right now, but also um i i really want to, let's just say five years in five, three to five years, i really want to start this initiative that I've been ah working towards on the side.
00:42:02
Speaker
And basically what I call it is I call it a, a trigger initiative. It's something where um we take a, um ah not a canceled, but a discontinued indie project.
00:42:16
Speaker
And we get it through to a minimum viable product that's not originally ours. I call it a trigger initiative. i call it We're actually doing that right now with one of my friends, Z-More Designs. He runs this independent ah indie game consulting thing.
00:42:35
Speaker
um The game is called Emberfall. And it's about a firefighter simulation thing. and that's A firefighter narrative game. But I think... Regardless of what that project is about, i want to be able to be similar to a publisher, but not exactly a publisher, just basically able to provide the management and organizational support to indie devs and saying, hey, you know we're able to do this.
00:43:01
Speaker
um We're able to you know walk you through the process, but you still got to do the work. I would really like to have that initiative really solid and formalized in the next three to five years.
00:43:14
Speaker
It's kind of like a mentorship type of thing to help come and coach and help get your project past that finish line. Indeed. Indeed. I'm just curious, what is the makeup of the people that are working on it? And are you looking for any sort of help at the moment that if anyone's listening, they can reach out?
00:43:32
Speaker
yeah Yeah, we're always accepting applications for different things. um Right now, i think we are look primarily looking for 3D artists. Yeah, ah we are looking for three d artists, 3D animators, stuff like that.
00:43:48
Speaker
Um, you know, ah you know, we are all technically rev share volunteers. So I'm going to make that up upfront about people. Sometimes people get confused about that, even though we make that very clear.
00:44:00
Speaker
um so I think those are the people that we'll be still looking for at this time, but also, you know, solid programmers in unity. See the G sharp, um, that those are people that we are, we are looking for, for the vultures project.
00:44:14
Speaker
Um, you know, and, Yeah, that's that's kind of what's on the horizon. We did actually submit to a publisher a little while ago, but they never really, but the economy of ah publishing and and also the general landscape of game games industries right now is is historically challenging.
00:44:35
Speaker
So um we'll have to see how that shapes up in the in the coming years and months.
Closing and Thank You
00:44:40
Speaker
Well, Eric Chow, founder of Honor Games, it's been an honor have you and I appreciate you taking the time today to come and tell us about your story, your studio, the idea of your passion of mental mental health and all that.
00:44:54
Speaker
ah Thank you so much for joining. Before we do go today, let us know anything you want. And more importantly, let us know where we can find Honor Games. Yeah. So our our primary mode of communication is on LinkedIn. um You guys can connect with me, follow me on LinkedIn.
00:45:10
Speaker
Eric J. Chow, as well as honorgames.co. There's no M. That's our website, honorgames.co. And all of our ah information is is kind of there as well.
00:45:23
Speaker
We will have links to all of Eric's projects, everything he's spoken about, his book, his studio, his games on our player-driven blog. Eric, again, thank you so much for being a part of this. I hope you enjoy your 4th of July weekend, although when this comes out, that would be a month away, but enjoy it, and we'll talk again soon.
00:45:42
Speaker
Great. Thank you, Greg.