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Kwame Christian's Path to Learning Contracts and Negotiation
718 Plays3 years ago
In this episode, Laura Frederick chats with Kwame Christian, Founder and CEO at the American Negotiation Institute, Forbes contributor, and the host of Negotiate Anything, the world's #1 negotiation podcast.
Kwame shares his journey of figuring out negotiations and contracts. He talks about the importance of self-awareness and emotional self-regulation, touches on how humility can help you become a great lawyer, and shares advice on how to become great at negotiations.
He also talks about his first steps in finding his first clients.
Follow Kwame Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kwamechristian/
Follow Laura Frederick on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurafredericklaw/
😂 Sonny & Cher Song Parody: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/john-lindsey-0bb6a3212_contractsconisamustattendevent-damnrightlauracansing-activity-7063816439538872320-Vwso?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop
Learn how you can improve your contract drafting and negotiation skills with How to Contract: https://www.howtocontract.com/
Buy your copy of Laura's bestselling book Practical Tips on How to Contract: https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Tips-How-Contract-Commercial-ebook/dp/B0BHTLQP3V
Sign up for How to Contract’s free weekly newsletter to get links to each podcast episode, the contract tips Laura posts on LinkedIn, plus special offers and events: https://www.howtocontract.com/newsletter
Get access to over 70 hours of practical contract training videos, over 400 contract tips and cartoons, and over 80 checklists, guides, and other contract tools: https://www.howtocontract.com/HTC-training-library
Get an email every time a new episode is out: https://www.howtocontract.com/you-can-contract-episodes
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
This is the You Can Contract Show, sharing stories and advice about learning contracts in the real world.
00:00:08
Speaker
Your host is Laura Frederick, founder and CEO of How to Contract.
00:00:12
Speaker
How to Contract is a world leader in training in-house lawyers and professionals on contract drafting and negotiations through its training library, practical courses, and training events like ContractsCon.
00:00:24
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Hi, this is Laura Frederick.
00:00:26
Speaker
Welcome to the
Kwame's Learning Journey in Contracts and Negotiations
00:00:27
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show.
00:00:27
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In this episode, Kwame Christian shares his story about how he learned contracts and negotiations.
00:00:35
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He talks about the importance of mentors and the different resources we all have available to us to become better at negotiating.
00:00:43
Speaker
Now let's tune in.
00:00:45
Speaker
Hey, I'm so excited to have you on the show.
00:00:47
Speaker
Yes, thanks for having me, Laura.
00:00:49
Speaker
It's great to be here.
The Origin and Humor Behind the Podcast
00:00:50
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's wonderful because we've gotten to become good friends over the last year as we've worked together on lots of different projects.
00:00:58
Speaker
And you were definitely an inspiration for me launching this podcast.
00:01:02
Speaker
So I appreciate that.
00:01:03
Speaker
That's great to hear.
00:01:04
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And listeners, just to tell you how close Laura and I are, she is probably one of maybe seven humans on the planet who could get me to wear a Sonny Bono costume and sing on the internet.
00:01:16
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In fosterity preserve forever.
00:01:18
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My wife was deeply concerned when she got that in the mail.
00:01:21
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She was like, do you have something to say, Kwame?
00:01:23
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Yeah.
00:01:25
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And what, so it was a video with, in the style of Sonny and Cher and the women singing had long black Cher wigs and you had a lovely Sonny toupee like hair wig.
00:01:38
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It's awesome.
00:01:38
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I got to put it on my website.
00:01:40
Speaker
I haven't done that yet.
00:01:41
Speaker
We'll put a link in the show notes so that you can see the video that you're talking about.
00:01:45
Speaker
So now you've triggered even more views of it.
00:01:49
Speaker
We are here to talk about contracts and learning contracts and how different people come to contracts.
00:01:54
Speaker
But before we kick into that, tell us a little bit about your background and what you're doing now.
Kwame's Career in Law and Mediation
00:02:00
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Yeah, so my name is Kwame Christian.
00:02:02
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I'm the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute.
00:02:05
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Came up in civil rights law, business law, and spent time as a mediator.
00:02:10
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And now with A&I, we create trainings and we actually write books.
00:02:16
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We have two books and we have three podcasts all geared towards helping to make difficult conversations easier.
00:02:22
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And if you haven't listened in to Quali's podcast, they're just really fantastic.
00:02:27
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And I said, it's the biggest podcast in the world on negotiations.
00:02:30
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So I think congratulations to you and your team and such a great business and so much that you're giving back to the community on learning such an important skill.
00:02:40
Speaker
Oh, thank you so much.
00:02:41
Speaker
And listeners, let's be clear on this.
00:02:44
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The only reason the podcast is so good is because I have guests like Laura coming on and sharing their wisdom.
00:02:51
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So now to contracts.
00:02:53
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So tell me about when you first saw contracts.
00:02:57
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For most lawyers, it's in law school.
00:02:59
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Was that for you as well?
00:03:01
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Yes.
00:03:01
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We're fighting a little bit of PTSD here, Laura, because Kwame and contracts in law school, we did not get along.
00:03:08
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I don't know.
00:03:08
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And you know what's funny about it?
00:03:10
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To this day, I still don't understand what was so difficult about the class for me.
00:03:15
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I think it was just that learning curve of learning how to be a law student that was challenging.
00:03:19
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Because out in the real world, after I got a little bit of practical experience, it was a lot easier.
00:03:24
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But yes, my first experience was in law school and it was rough.
00:03:29
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I think it's just the nature of that contracts law class where it's so theoretical.
00:03:33
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There's so many bizarre rules, like mailbox rules, the last shot rules.
00:03:38
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There's so much to remember.
00:03:39
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It's just not great.
00:03:41
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And really so unrelated to what we do day to day with contracts.
00:03:46
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Agreed.
00:03:46
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So you go through law school and then graduated law school.
00:03:51
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And tell me about your work experience and when you first started seeing contracts in your work.
Early Career and Starting a Law Firm
00:03:56
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Yes.
00:03:56
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And so this goes to our earlier conversation about being overachievers.
00:04:01
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So I graduated in law school, but also I did a dual degree.
00:04:05
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So I have a master of public policy.
00:04:07
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So after I took the bar, my first job was more on the civil rights public policy side, doing policy analysis, analyses focused on healthcare inequity in the U.S. And so that was where I started.
00:04:18
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And then when I started the subsequent portion of my career, the legal portion a few years later when I opened my own firm.
00:04:25
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So you opened your own firm.
00:04:26
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What kind of practice did you focus on?
00:04:28
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Whatever would pay the bills.
00:04:32
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I know that field.
00:04:35
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But predominantly it was business law and some estate planning as well.
00:04:40
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And it was fun for me because I always was enamored by business.
00:04:44
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I started a business in law school.
00:04:46
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It went as well as you would have thought it would have gone with professional degrees at the same time.
00:04:51
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But I was just, I always knew I wanted to start my own business.
00:04:55
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And I recognized that the shortest distance between me and entrepreneurship was starting my own law firm.
00:04:59
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And then if I focused on business law, then I could learn from my clients on the business side for whatever that next endeavor was going to be.
00:05:06
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I think that's really insightful because that was my path.
00:05:09
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I worked for other people for 24 years and my first true entrepreneurship was opening my own law firm.
00:05:16
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And it was my first time I had to ask people to pay me money.
00:05:20
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I had to say what my rate was and defend that as what my time was worth.
00:05:26
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It's a whole mindset shift.
00:05:28
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I had to promote my services.
00:05:29
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I had to think about marketing and all those things.
00:05:32
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So I think that's a great analogy.
00:05:35
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I'm glad you said that, Laura, because it's not until this conversation that I realized the only the first time that I actually negotiated my own contracts was after I started my law firm with my clients because I was always negotiating on behalf of other people.
00:05:50
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So that's really interesting.
00:05:51
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I didn't put that together until right now.
00:05:54
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Yeah, I'm thinking that too, because I spent my whole career negotiating deals.
00:05:59
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And then I opened my own law firm and I'm starting to do that as well, whether it's contractors or whatever.
00:06:04
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And it's, I'm the one signing.
00:06:06
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I'm the one with the liability.
00:06:08
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It's a whole different mindset than when it's for somebody else.
00:06:11
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So you have your firm and you're getting your business clients.
Practical Experience in Contract Negotiation
00:06:15
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Now, how did you learn about
00:06:18
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contracts in that sense of you're representing clients and they're bringing you contracts.
00:06:23
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What was your process there?
00:06:25
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Yeah, I got lucky, Laura, I'll be honest, because there was an incubator program in the Columbus Bar Association.
00:06:31
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So I'm in Columbus, Ohio.
00:06:33
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And they really walked you through exactly what it would take for you to be successful as a starting lawyer.
00:06:39
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So with your own practice.
00:06:41
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So they gave you office space.
00:06:42
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You were able to collaborate with other lawyers who were at the same level.
00:06:45
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They would assign you with a mentor so you could bounce ideas off of them.
00:06:48
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So we weren't malpracticing.
00:06:53
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It's funny, especially when you start your own law firm, almost fresh out of law school.
00:06:58
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It's like, hey, help me, not only because it will help my clients, but I need you to make sure I don't get disbarred in this process.
00:07:05
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So it was really great to learn from experienced lawyers.
00:07:08
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And whenever I had a question, I could bounce ideas off them and they would just walk us through it.
00:07:12
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That's awesome that there's such a bar program.
00:07:15
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I don't know that I've heard about that in any other city.
00:07:18
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I wonder if those exist.
00:07:20
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Yeah, I'm not sure.
00:07:21
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I personally haven't, but yeah, it's a great program and they do a great job there too.
00:07:25
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So you're learning from them.
00:07:26
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Now tell me about when you started doing more negotiations for these clients and figuring out negotiation.
00:07:33
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Did you have any early missteps in that or things where you had practices that you realized over time, maybe this wasn't the best approach to negotiations?
00:07:45
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Yeah.
00:07:45
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I think, first of all, let me start with the beginning.
00:07:48
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So when did I start these negotiations?
00:07:50
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What's interesting is that the way that I got most of my clients in the business realm was by putting on free negotiation workshops around the city.
00:07:57
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Because I discovered negotiation in law school and I fell in love.
00:08:01
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And then I was like, oh yeah, let me put these seminars on for free just to get more clients.
00:08:06
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And so teaching was how I started to get that credibility as a negotiator.
00:08:11
Speaker
But what was interesting is that I'm realizing that a big mistake that I made was not communicating the value of negotiation to the client early because I assumed that they would come to me when they had a problem, but they would come to me
00:08:27
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After they recognized they had a problem, they tried to fix it themselves and they made it worse.
00:08:32
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And then they come to me.
00:08:33
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And so I was always negotiating from behind.
00:08:35
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They're like, hey, Kwame, can you fix the situation?
00:08:37
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I was like, I'm a lawyer, not a magician.
00:08:39
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Look what you've done.
00:08:40
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And so it was frustrating because for a lot of my clients, they weren't bringing me in at the beginning of the process.
00:08:47
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So I was just seeing the potential mistakes that were made and trying to salvage a tough situation.
00:08:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:54
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And which is also a really good practice pointer for all lawyers, especially newer lawyers, which is when you realize you screwed something up, whether you're the client or the lawyer, don't try and fix it yourself.
00:09:06
Speaker
I learned early on with all the mistakes I made, ask somebody first, even if it's not a huge mistake, a lot of times because it's mine, I don't see things clearly.
00:09:15
Speaker
And I bet your clients were like that too.
00:09:17
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Exactly.
00:09:18
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Exactly.
00:09:19
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And I think there's also the confirmation bias for a lot of the clients where they say, oh yeah, I've been in business for 20, 30 years.
00:09:26
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I know how to negotiate.
00:09:27
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And a lot of times they do know how to negotiate, but it's a situation where again, they're too close.
00:09:33
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And it's that identity aspect, whereas I can handle this, I've solved every other problem.
00:09:37
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And then also they can't see the challenges that they're running into.
00:09:40
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They just don't have the perspective.
00:09:42
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The other part of that is the subject matter, because I see a lot of negotiation training that's general.
00:09:47
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This is how people act.
00:09:49
Speaker
This is how to engage in persuasion and things like that.
00:09:52
Speaker
But then there's also the, how do you negotiate an indemnity provision as a subset of the bigger negotiation concepts?
00:10:00
Speaker
And that's something I'm always thinking about, which is how is negotiation of what I do with contracts different from the bigger picture negotiation concepts?
Nuances and Techniques in Negotiations
00:10:09
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:10:09
Speaker
And I think it's important to even within ourselves start to have more of those philosophical discussions because then we start to see the nuances between the different types of negotiations that we're always having because they're going to be those subsets.
00:10:21
Speaker
Like you said, with indemnification, there is just general negotiation, but in this specific type of negotiation, this nuance really helps, but it doesn't help in other situations.
00:10:32
Speaker
And then also when you're negotiating different types of contracts, there are going to be cultural elements.
00:10:36
Speaker
If I'm helping somebody, for example,
00:10:39
Speaker
deal with a contract that was a trust, that's a family issue.
00:10:43
Speaker
And that's a different type of conflict from a business negotiation with all these different types of terms.
00:10:48
Speaker
And the observing of ourselves in these negotiations, and I know you've talked about that before, is that self-awareness, that emotional intelligence, where you learn how to see what you're doing
00:11:00
Speaker
And then you watch other people and see them do it different.
00:11:02
Speaker
And you're like, oh, that's an interesting approach.
00:11:06
Speaker
And you learn that.
00:11:07
Speaker
And also, I also pay attention to how things make me feel.
00:11:10
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When someone's acting or negotiating a contract provision this way, what does that trigger in me?
00:11:16
Speaker
What emotion does that trigger?
00:11:18
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And...
00:11:20
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paying attention to that is really effective.
00:11:22
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And at least that's how I think I learned to negotiate was really paying attention, not only to either side, but then also like, when did I feel like I had to concede?
00:11:32
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Even maybe I didn't want to, but I felt this compelling need to.
00:11:35
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And when did I refuse to concede anything, even when I could have?
00:11:38
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And so much of that is governed by that emotion.
00:11:41
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Absolutely.
00:11:42
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And I think one of the elements of a great negotiator that people often miss is humility, too, because what you're demonstrating there is that you're saying, I'm now upon hindsight, I can recognize what worked on me and why.
00:11:55
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Now I can work to replicate that.
00:11:57
Speaker
And then again, going a little bit deeper on the humility side.
00:12:01
Speaker
When I was negotiating, when I had my firm, I was always the youngest person in the room.
00:12:06
Speaker
And for when I was up against somebody who had more experience, which was always, I would ask them questions.
00:12:12
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I was like, what do you think I'm missing here?
00:12:14
Speaker
Can you help me to get a better understanding of that maneuver that you just did?
00:12:18
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And a lot of times it's flattering for them.
00:12:20
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Yeah, I know this and they'll actually help me through the negotiation.
00:12:24
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And I considered it a borrowed experience.
00:12:27
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So I don't have many years of legal experience at that time, but I'm going to learn from my mentors and I'm going to borrow some years of experience.
00:12:35
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I'll learn from the people on the other side too.
00:12:37
Speaker
And I think just being a little bit more humble with your approach and asking for help when you need it, it's like a superpower.
00:12:44
Speaker
The other cool thing your comment made me think about, which is the opportunity to observe other people.
00:12:50
Speaker
Lawyers who are working with contracts, who are negotiating whatever we negotiate, we have these masterclasses every day, whether it's great examples or terrible examples.
00:13:02
Speaker
And so I remember even...
00:13:04
Speaker
I was in a job, I was probably 15 years out of law school, just doing commercial contract technology negotiations that whole time.
00:13:11
Speaker
And I remember sitting in an office with one of the VPs.
00:13:15
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We're at the end of the negotiation.
00:13:17
Speaker
It was a really long thing.
00:13:18
Speaker
And silence can be used effectively.
00:13:20
Speaker
And I'd used it and I'd seen it used on me.
00:13:22
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I'd never seen anyone use silence like this person did.
00:13:26
Speaker
And we're sitting there talking and he just, throughout the conversation, had totally uncomfortable feelings.
00:13:33
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long silences while he was trying to get them to concede.
00:13:36
Speaker
Because we were in a point of black and white, and it was just one or the other.
00:13:40
Speaker
And he would talk, and then they'd talk, and then he'd just sit for the longest time.
00:13:46
Speaker
And what I liked about it was by seeing the extreme use of it, I really appreciated the smaller uses of it that I do, because I got to see it in this extreme example.
00:13:59
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And so I think that
00:14:00
Speaker
Working with contracts, we have this luxury of watching negotiations all day, watching ourselves perform and really learn that way.
Learning from Negotiation Experiences
00:14:09
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I love that.
00:14:09
Speaker
That's so fascinating.
00:14:11
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It was really, I've had a couple of these where I had these really extreme negotiation experiences.
00:14:17
Speaker
My other favorite one is I was working for a company where the vice president was using emotion and anger because we had done something that the other side didn't like at all.
00:14:28
Speaker
And they were pissed at us because we had introduced this new concept at the end.
00:14:33
Speaker
This VP who I knew starts yelling at me and the person next to me.
00:14:40
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And I'm completely shocked because I'm sitting across from the table.
00:14:44
Speaker
We're in person in a conference room.
00:14:45
Speaker
And he starts yelling at us about how we had mismanaged this.
00:14:49
Speaker
And we were so uncomfortable.
00:14:51
Speaker
And the other side was so uncomfortable.
00:14:56
Speaker
And then it ended.
00:14:58
Speaker
And the thing that they were pissed about, they weren't really pissed about anymore.
00:15:02
Speaker
And we get out of the room.
00:15:04
Speaker
And the VP and the salesperson with me both knew each other.
00:15:07
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And he's, oh, my God.
00:15:08
Speaker
Did you see how their faces turned?
00:15:10
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And they were collaborating on it.
00:15:12
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I wasn't in on it because I wasn't usually their lawyer.
00:15:15
Speaker
But this was apparently a stick that they used all the time.
00:15:18
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To distract the other side was to have him yell at this guy.
00:15:23
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Not sure that I approve of this technique, but I got to see it in action and see the impact.
00:15:32
Speaker
So again, I would never do this, but the idea of emotion and the uncomfortable sense that people get sometimes with too much emotion in the room, it was definitely a masterclass of that for me.
00:15:46
Speaker
Wow, that's so fascinating.
00:15:50
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I still remember I was like coming out of the conference room and I'm thinking, do I still have a job?
00:15:56
Speaker
You know, I was just mortified, but I realized then I found out it was just a whole technique they used.
00:16:02
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Unreal.
00:16:03
Speaker
It is.
00:16:04
Speaker
It's totally.
00:16:05
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Lawyers can get exposed to all this kind of craziness.
00:16:08
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Anyway, so many masterclasses we experienced.
00:16:11
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Yes.
00:16:12
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Wow.
00:16:13
Speaker
That's a good one.
00:16:15
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I know, especially I wasn't in on the joke with him.
00:16:18
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But yeah, I think that learning and seeing that and then seeing how I reacted to it in the moment.
00:16:23
Speaker
And I think one of the things I learned from it was that detachment to when people start getting emotional, even on my side, because I was getting sucked into it and as normal humans would.
00:16:36
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But I think I realized after that, I'm like, oh, people take
00:16:40
Speaker
positions that are sometimes extreme and that's okay.
00:16:44
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We just, it's all about how I respond and how I manage my emotions.
00:16:48
Speaker
Exactly.
00:16:49
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:16:50
Speaker
And again, I think that's something that's really important for us to remember as lawyers.
00:16:54
Speaker
If we are knowledge workers, our success depends on the
00:16:58
Speaker
functionality of our brain.
00:17:00
Speaker
But if we are not able to manage our emotions, it's not going to function very well.
00:17:04
Speaker
I think that's a critical element to remember.
00:17:07
Speaker
And even if we are completely justified in feeling the way that we feel, it doesn't mean that it doesn't have a negative impact on your ability to function as a lawyer.
00:17:17
Speaker
Yeah, and that emotional self-regulation.
00:17:20
Speaker
I think that for me, as I go look at how I went from an okay lawyer to a good lawyer to a great lawyer, it really was that emotional regulation that helped me get there because I learned how to have those conversations, the difficult conversations that you always talk about, learning how to have those without losing it inside every single time when you get upset or you get angry or somebody does something you don't like
00:17:45
Speaker
It's so easy to get worked up, but being able to not get worked up is so critical to being successful.
00:17:52
Speaker
100%.
00:17:54
Speaker
So you train people around the world in negotiations.
00:17:58
Speaker
What advice do you have for lawyers who are in your
Advice for Aspiring Lawyers
00:18:02
Speaker
situation?
00:18:02
Speaker
People who came out of law school, they're opening their own firm, they don't really have, even in your case, a lot of mentors available to show them the way, but they're trying to figure out how to get great at negotiations and great at contracts.
00:18:17
Speaker
But what advice would you have for those kind of folks to get better?
00:18:22
Speaker
I think it's really simple.
00:18:23
Speaker
What we have to do is we have to just get this learner's mentality and just recognize that everything that we do is some level of practice.
00:18:30
Speaker
So we should be more intentional with that practice.
00:18:33
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So as you're going through your negotiations and you're negotiating these contracts and drafting and things like that,
00:18:39
Speaker
You want to be able to look back and learn from this and improve through the process and coach yourself through it.
00:18:44
Speaker
These are organic learning opportunities.
00:18:46
Speaker
But even beyond that, you could listen to free resources, this podcast, my podcast, Negotiate Anything, those type of things.
00:18:54
Speaker
You should try to surround yourself with as much information about the topic as possible.
00:18:59
Speaker
And start to follow people on LinkedIn who talk about it regularly.
00:19:02
Speaker
Again, Laura, you're great at this.
00:19:04
Speaker
And your content is educational, but it's also very easy to understand.
00:19:09
Speaker
And it's fun and funny a lot of time.
00:19:12
Speaker
And so just the more you immerse yourself with contracts and negotiation, the better you'll be because you're constantly learning from the best.
00:19:20
Speaker
Yeah, for sure.
00:19:21
Speaker
And finding ways to negotiate contracts because they're even at as a solo in a law firm, you could volunteer to help with a pro bono opportunity that involves some contracts and probably involves you working with more senior folks on those contracts.
00:19:38
Speaker
So partnering that way.
00:19:40
Speaker
And often the other thing I recommend is trying to get like a part time job.
00:19:45
Speaker
You have your law firm, but for a lot of lawyers, it takes a while.
00:19:49
Speaker
to get those clients and get a steady income.
00:19:52
Speaker
So you have an opportunity to work with others, offer to do first drafts, offer to do some of the legwork for contracts, because then you can start doing that.
00:20:01
Speaker
And the same for negotiations, go start working on some business things as a pro bono matter for your local associations or charities as a way to get experience.
00:20:12
Speaker
I'm so glad we're having this conversation, Laura, because I am remembering so many things that I did that I completely forgot about.
00:20:20
Speaker
Because I actually started a legal clinic at a nonprofit, obviously to help the community.
00:20:25
Speaker
That was the real purpose.
00:20:26
Speaker
But I think the surprising benefit was the fact that I got so many more reps, just lawyering skills of talking to clients, but also seeing their business challenges, learning from them and helping with those negotiations has been really helpful.
00:20:39
Speaker
And so you just get more and more reps every time you're doing it every single week.
00:20:43
Speaker
And it's a great way to gain rapid experience in a real world environment.
00:20:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:48
Speaker
Anytime you have an opportunity to work and there's not an expectation of someone is paying me a lot of money per hour to be an expert.
00:20:57
Speaker
It's a learning opportunity.
00:20:58
Speaker
Because when someone's paying me a ton of money per hour to be an expert in something, it's uncomfortable to not know what you're doing at the value they're paying you.
00:21:05
Speaker
So being able to work for free or a low, a $25 an hour worker at a law firm, there's going to be so much learning that's going to offset the low pay that you might be getting.
00:21:18
Speaker
There's just so many opportunities like that.
00:21:21
Speaker
And I totally agree with you on the free resources.
00:21:23
Speaker
And there's just so much there.
00:21:26
Speaker
There's no shortcutting this.
00:21:27
Speaker
That's the thing.
00:21:28
Speaker
You have to invest the time in order to get better.
00:21:31
Speaker
And so the way I like to think about it is that there is some magical amount of repetitions that I need.
00:21:37
Speaker
I don't know what that is, but I'm going to try to figure it out.
00:21:40
Speaker
And so the longer you take to gather that experience, the longer it will take for you to get to that level of skill that you want to get to.
00:21:47
Speaker
That's the 10,000 hours is the traditional number, but I'm with you there too.
00:21:52
Speaker
I see it in my career and in others that there's just no way to be amazing when you're starting out.
00:21:58
Speaker
Nobody is.
00:21:58
Speaker
It takes practice.
00:21:59
Speaker
It takes wisdom.
00:22:00
Speaker
Those take time.
00:22:02
Speaker
Fantastic insights as always, Kwame.
00:22:04
Speaker
I love talking to you.
00:22:05
Speaker
We could talk all day long, every day, and still have things to talk about.
00:22:09
Speaker
So I really appreciate you being on.
00:22:12
Speaker
Yes, likewise.
00:22:13
Speaker
Thanks for having me.
00:22:14
Speaker
Thank you.
00:22:16
Speaker
Thanks for tuning into this episode.
00:22:18
Speaker
If you'd like to learn more about How to Contract's training programs, check out our website at howtocontract.com.
00:22:25
Speaker
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00:22:36
Speaker
Happy contracting!