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Silk Mirage: Through the Looking Glass in Uzbekistan
72 Plays19 days ago
Episode twenty-four of the new series of Pieces of History turns the spotlight on Uzbekistan - a country often overlooked in global discussions yet rich in history, culture, and complexity. From the Silk Road cities of Samarkand and Bukhara to the modern-day shifts reshaping its society, Uzbekistan stands at a fascinating crossroads of past and future.
Joining me is journalist and author Joanna Lillis, a long-time observer of Central Asia whose latest book, Silk Mirage: Through the Looking Glass in Uzbekistan, offers a vivid and revealing portrait of the country today. Together, we explore Uzbekistan’s geography, political dynamics, economic changes, and social transformations, uncovering the realities behind its evolving image.
In this episode, we dive into the forces shaping Uzbekistan’s identity, challenge common assumptions, and shed light on a nation navigating a complex path between tradition and modernity.
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Silk Mirage: Through the Looking Glass in Uzbekistan - https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/silk-mirage-9781350292468/
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Pieces of History. I'm Colin McGrath and in each episode I explore both the renowned and the lesser known events that have shaped our world. Today, our journey takes us into the heart of Central Asia, Uzbekistan.
00:00:29
Speaker
A country of ancient cities, sweeping deserts and a deep, intricate history, Uzbekistan has been a pivotal crossroads for cultures, trade and ideas for millennia. Joining me once again is Joanna Lillis, a journalist based in Central Asia with decades of experience reporting on the region.
00:00:48
Speaker
Her work has been featured in The Guardian, The Economist, The Independent, Eurasianet, Foreign Policy and Politico, where she provides sharp, insightful analysis of politics, society and culture.
00:01:01
Speaker
Joanna is also the author of Dark Shadows Inside the Secret World of Kazakhstan and now her new book Silk Mirage Through the Looking Glass in Uzbekistan takes us deep into the country's contemporary reality.
Exploring Uzbekistan: Geography and Society
00:01:15
Speaker
In today's episode, we'll explore Uzbekistan's geography, its political and economic developments, and the social forces shaping life there today. Joanna offers a thoughtful and engaging look at a country often shrouded in mystery, yet brimming with stories waiting to be told.
00:01:31
Speaker
I hope you enjoy.
00:01:34
Speaker
Joanna, thanks very much for coming back on again. I really appreciate you having the time. Today, we're we're stepping over the border from Kazakhstan and we're jumping into Uzbekistan. And for a lot of people like myself included, we don't necessarily know very much about this country at all, quite frankly, because we are very Euro-US centric in our listening habits, reading habits.
00:01:55
Speaker
To give us a bit of a flavour of the country, can we kick off with a bit of history of the country and a bit of the geography around Uzbekistan? And do you mind giving me a bit of a personal insight on how you got involved? Because you were there from roughly, was 2001 to 2005? So can kick with that angle?
00:02:08
Speaker
so can we kick it off with but ranle Okay, well, thank you. And it's great to be here again back on the podcast. Thank you for the invitation. Well, I'll start with how I got to Uzbekistan. um Well, it wasn't a very direct route, but um i um I did live in Uzbekistan from 2001 to 2005.
00:02:28
Speaker
um And before that, I'd been living in Moscow. um And the reason really was that I studied Russian at university um in the UK. And then I moved to Moscow after I graduated. And after a few years, I got a job at um a unit of the BBC called BBC Monitoring, which kind of tracks the foreign media and translates from foreign media and so on.
00:02:49
Speaker
um And then... um From there, when I wanted to kind of move out of Moscow after about five years, I i applied for a job with and BBC monitoring in Uzbekistan. So there were a few offices around the former Soviet Union um and Uzbekistan was one of them and I got a job there. So that's how I moved to Uzbekistan.
00:03:09
Speaker
and um i stayed there from ah for four years. um and um So it wasn't on the ground reporting job, but kind of I still was in very close touch with what was happening in Uzbekistan from our work on the media and also with all the other Central Asian countries and also Afghanistan, which at that time we covered from Tashkent, capital of Uzbekistan, because of the that was the time the first the Taliban was in power the first time.
00:03:34
Speaker
and And then after I move i finished ah my job in Uzbekistan, I moved to Kazakhstan.
Uzbekistan's Path to Independence
00:03:39
Speaker
ah But I still have, over all the years, um been regularly visiting Uzbekistan.
00:03:45
Speaker
um A one-time journalist was pretty much banned from there, but I was still able to go in and do a little bit of reporting or go on private visits. So I've been in very close touch with Uzbekistan really for nearly 25 years. Next year will be 25 years.
00:03:57
Speaker
um And I was officially able to work as a journalist there ah from 2019.
00:04:02
Speaker
18, 19, 18, sorry, um until 2023. But unfortunately, nowadays, the government is not renewing my press accreditation, which is a um unfortunate. um And as for Uzbekistan, so something about Uzbekistan. Well, um Uzbekistan has a the The land that is now Uzbekistan has only really existed for 100 years actually and in and that's not even in its current form. Let's just say Uzbekistan became in an independent country in 1991 when the Soviet Union collapsed. So all the 15 republics just suddenly had independence kind of thrust upon them in some sense and some more reluctantly than others. um I mean, it famously, the president of Uzbekistan at the time, Islam Karimov, um didn't really want independence, but but then was given no choice. ah
00:04:51
Speaker
That's when Uzbekistan became an independent country. So it's only been independent for just over 30 years. um And before that, it was part of the Soviet Union. And the current form of Uzbekistan, the sort of um in its borders, um basically, it's the form that that was established in the 20s when the Soviets um had not long after the revolution that brought them to power um and they then took over the the Russian, but many parts of the Russian Empire, um which Uzbekistan was.
00:05:19
Speaker
um Then they kind of carved out administrative boundaries. So Uzbekistan is a kind of land of of deserts and also mountains. it's ah It's got a very varied landscape.
00:05:31
Speaker
um It's also um famous for for having the you know the most fabled Silk Road cities. um ah you know Some of the most famous Silk Road cities in the world are in Uzbekistan.
00:05:44
Speaker
um So it's a big draw for tourists, actually. um So Samarkand, Bukhara, Hiva, all those magical kind of words. They are in Uzbekistan. They are cities of stunning beauty, turquoise tiles, domes, etc.
00:05:58
Speaker
And also very pleasant places to visit because Uzbeks very, very friendly and hospitable people. um But it's also kind of Uzbekistan is an interesting place beyond that as well, because it's also got amazing landscapes, deserts, lakes, mountains, as I said. um And it's also got kind of some in some ways um other different kinds of cities, for example, Tashkent.
00:06:23
Speaker
um the capital, ah much of it was kind of raised in an earthquake and in the 60s. um But it has a very interesting history with its buildings. It's got lots of Soviet modernist buildings and it's got these Tsarist era of Russian imperial buildings. It's got some some places that look very genteel. And then it's got this kind of more modern big building boom going on there now.
00:06:44
Speaker
um And so, as I say, it history is it traces way back, um you know, into the to to the Silk Road, to the days when the emirs ruled and the Khans ruled um until the Soviets took over and then now ah independent Uzbekistan.
00:07:01
Speaker
Fantastic. That's great. And when i' was doing my research, it's quite a populist country as well. It's roughly around 37 million people in it, which took me by surprise. i don't know why it should, but it did. um that's so a lot of people. So before we get into the political situation, the fall of communism and so on and so forth, whenever you first arrived, say roughly 25 years ago, and say today, somebody who live in 2025 Uzbekistan?
00:07:24
Speaker
Wow, that's a tough question. What would life be like? It was for rather different, um I would say, in many ways, 25 years ago when I first lived there. and As you say, we're going to get into the politics, but but there there has been a big change in Uzbekistan in recent years because um for the first 25 years of its independence, it was ruled by ah um a dictator who was really one of the most the world's most harshest dictators.
00:07:49
Speaker
um That was 25 years and that people lived through that. Now it's ruled by an authoritarian leader who is somewhat less dictatorial, shall we say. um So, i mean, life would be, Uzbekistan has suffers has ah quite a big problem with poverty.
00:08:08
Speaker
um Now, one of the reasons for that under the dictatorship um was the way the country was run, actually, and the basket case economics that they embraced. um And also, there they closed themselves off to some degree to the world, although, I mean, tourists still going there and, you know, I was there, journalists were there.
00:08:27
Speaker
ah But still, um it's quite ah quite ah quite an insular kind of country and society. and I think one of the things that's really striking about Uzbekistan is the kind of communal and collective um spirit of the place, if you like, um even compared to some of the other Central Asian countries.
00:08:47
Speaker
What really matters to people is their home, their family, their community. And it's really, really important to people and their kind of Uzbek way of life, if you like, ah It's very, very important to people and they're very sociable and, to you know, traditionally and nowadays people enjoy big family meals and so on. They often live, well, obviously in big cities, they live in blocks of flats, but many people, even in big cities, live in houses with courtyards and vines and, you know, and places to sit and enjoy big family meal.
00:09:18
Speaker
um You know, for example, um the community, well, weddings, so a wedding of 500 people would be considered tiny in Uzbekistan. um So, you know, that's and part of life in Uzbekistan is being sociable, supporting your community um and family life. Very important. People have a lot of children often.
00:09:37
Speaker
um And that goes in the past and now and and probably goes way back into the past as well. Whenever I was reading your book about Kazakhstan, you mentioned whenever you first dropped into Uzbekistan, you thought Russian but you would have been OK to kind of integrate with the society. But obviously they speak Uzbek as well.
00:09:54
Speaker
how did you find that translation with? Yeah, I mean, Russian was the lingua franca of the time, and it still is in Central Asia to a great degree. Although, you know, the the difference now between 25 years ago and now and how much people use Central Asian languages compared to Russian has changed enormously.
Political Landscape: From Karimov to Mirziyoyev
00:10:12
Speaker
um But and what what struck me in Uzbekistan, I think I came to Uzbekistan, as many people do come to Central Asia through Russian or Russian studies or living in Russia.
00:10:23
Speaker
um And so I think I, and like many people, I had a bit of a Russian centric kind of attitude. um until And then I realized that you know how different things were, how different the people were, the way of life was.
00:10:34
Speaker
And also, of course, the language. um So I spoke fluent Russian at the time um and I didn't speak any Uzbek and I didn't speak Turkish, which is ah it's a Turkic language. So it was a complete blank to me. In Tashkent, yeah, I note obviously noticed a lot of Uzbek speaking and so on, Uzbek adverts and all that.
00:10:53
Speaker
But it um it was very easy to get by in Russian, and it still is. um ah But um I remember going to Hiva once and and finding encountering people when I spoke to them about something, um encountering people who really just didn't understand Russian, although they'd been educated in... and They were probably younger people.
00:11:10
Speaker
um And the Soviet Union and had fallen like 10 years before, so... you know And and know although Russian is still taught in Uzbek schools, you found a lot of people who didn't um speak it very well or didn't speak it at all.
00:11:23
Speaker
um So that was an eye opener for me that this is the Central Asia, this is not Russia. And although Russia has this huge impact influence now, today, linguistic, political, economic, military on the region, Central Asia is very much a region and in its own right that really wants its own agency. is something people talk about a lot nowadays in Central Asia.
00:11:44
Speaker
So, yes, and as for learning Uzbek, I mean, to be honest, I didn't learn a great deal. I did, of course, learn words, numbers, et cetera, shopping, um restaurants. and But I didn't actually learn a great deal i was when I was there because it was a very hectic time, actually. and when When I arrived, 9-11 happened and the war in Afghanistan and U.S. military base arrived in Uzbekistan and we were really very busy all the time.
00:12:10
Speaker
um That's just a poor excuse. and But when I moved to Kazakhstan um in 2005, I did start learning Kazakh. So although my Kazakh has never reached the level of my Russian, I speak Kazakh and I now speak more Uzbek than I did. And I can read Uzbek relatively well. I also learned some Turkish.
00:12:26
Speaker
and But yes, it's it's um interesting nowadays in Central Asia, Russian used to be very, very much more dominant. and But nowadays, you know, um people take pride in their own languages and, um you know, people speak them a lot more. You hear them a lot more even in the big cities.
00:12:43
Speaker
ah But of course, some of these countries, um all of them to one degree or another, have have Russian minorities. In Kazakhstan, much larger than Uzbekistan, but still there's a Russian minority that...
00:12:54
Speaker
that is there and, you know, people speak Russian. Can we we you kind of move the conversation more so to the political side now as well? Because this is an area, again, i'm very interested in, something I don't know about Uzbekistan as well. So I dialed back again to 1981, the fall of the Soviet Union, and you did touch on it at the beginning.
00:13:14
Speaker
That was Uzbekistan's political landscape at the time. And whenever the fall of communism happened, who filled that void in the country? And like you said, we they did have a dictator for 25 years. And when was doing my research and on Uzbekistan as well, I ah realized they do political elections every four years to elect the president.
00:13:31
Speaker
And let's just say that whoever is in power generally does really well in the election. So think the last one was 79%. The one before that was 85%, 90%, so on and so forth. five percent ninety negative percent so on so forth So if you are an independent or or a member of the opposition, you don't really get a look at it, let's just say. So can you start from 1981 and fill us in from there, please?
00:13:51
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Now, this is something that I and trace and in Silk Mirage, my forthcoming book on Uzbekistan, and the political trajectory of of modern day Uzbekistan. It's very interesting, actually.
00:14:03
Speaker
um And I talked to um I actually went around the world talking to different people to to for some of this. And the one key opposition leader has lived in exile in Turkey, ah for example. So to get some of that background, i I'm interviewing him over the Aegean Sea on a terrace in Turkey to talk about how he ended up in Turkey.
00:14:21
Speaker
um as a political exile. So it's funny, but Uzbekistan had a very vibrant political scene in the late 80s, much more vibrant than today um and much more vibrant than it would become. So the late 80s, Soviet Union still existed, but it was a time of great change, a political fall under Mikhail Gorbachev and a time when um ah controls on freedom of speech were loosened.
00:14:47
Speaker
And a time when people started to think about self-determination. um So different, um you know, republics, were as they were at the time, they were republics of the Soviet Union. and They started to kind of lobby in some cases for independence, the Baltic states particularly, ah but also in the Caucasus.
00:15:03
Speaker
um Or they started to lobby for more autonomy. And they they started to think about their own identities, not as Soviet people, but as in in this case Uzbek people.
00:15:14
Speaker
And what do we want? And so there were movements looking for independence. There were reform movements that I talk about it in this book, um in my book Silk Mirage, there were reform movements. And um out of that, and independence kind of was thrust upon Uzbekistan anyway, in the end, the Soviet Union fell apart.
00:15:32
Speaker
And ah The person who became president, as in many of the countries in Central Asia, including Kazakhstan, was the person who was the communist leader of the country installed by Moscow at the time.
00:15:43
Speaker
So obviously they're in perfect position. They're the first secretary, as they were called, of the Communist Party, and they're effectively the leader of the republic. And they're in prime position with all levers of power in their hands to just become the president.
00:15:56
Speaker
um In fact, they were even called presidents even from just before the end of the Soviet Union. and This person was Islam Karimov, was his name. Samarkand born, person who became an economist and worked as a as a bureaucrat basically and in the in the Soviet Union.
00:16:15
Speaker
So very much a conformist and part of the establishment. After the Soviet Union fell apart, briefly there was an opposition. and And in the first election, 1991, an opposition leader called Mohamed Sohli, who I interviewed in Turkey but a few years ago, um ran against Karimov. And of course, well, he failed to win.
00:16:34
Speaker
um he got He got about 12% only. ah So Karimov got 88%, say, or 80%, whatever. But that that was the first and only election Uzbekistan has ever had. ah which has featured opposition, presidential election.
00:16:47
Speaker
And that's a really a bit of a damning indictment, I think, on the the leaders that it's had. The fact that since then, no opposition has been allowed. Now, Karimov then hounded opposition leaders out of the country. So hounded them into exile or into prison and basically got rid of them all very quickly after that. Very quickly. That was an experiment in democracy.
00:17:07
Speaker
I don't like it. ah And, um you know, it's not in the interests of the people in power, maybe. And after that, Karimov just um continued his one ran man rule for the next 25 years when he died in office.
00:17:21
Speaker
So and there are obviously political, well, not obviously, but there are political parties in Uzbekistan. But under Karimov, they just rubber stamp parties there to create the veneer of, oh, here's a parliament. Here are some different parties.
00:17:33
Speaker
um When Karimov died, he was succeeded by the prime minister. So he was a kind of loyal servant of the Karimov regime, which was a very harsh dictatorship. But when Shavkat Mizuov came to power in 2016, he really surprised his people and the world by embracing reform.
00:17:51
Speaker
um And there was a period where a great euphoria in Uzbekistan, a lot of excitement, a lot of changes, kind of getting rid of forced labor that was a real... scourge on Uzbekistan ah previously, um allowing the media to report on problems never happened under Karimov, very tightly censored.
00:18:10
Speaker
However, this has not extended to allowing political opposition and opposition leaders, there aren't really such things in Uzbekistan, ah but there are a couple of people who have tried to challenge Mizuov from 2021 in the elections, well in that election,
00:18:26
Speaker
And they have failed um and been harat hound hounded and harassed and, you know, all kinds of things have happened to them. And I interview them um in Silk Mirage, um a man who's tried so so many times to set up a party to to run for president, being harassed by provocateurs and this and that, you know.
00:18:44
Speaker
um And another, I interviewed another man, is a celebrity singer called Jahangir Atajanov, who, um he's ah he's a big celebrity in Uzbekistan and he once wanted to that challenge Mizuov and he was once kidnapped which he related from the side of a road and kind of subjected to kind of torture.
00:19:00
Speaker
And he related that to his political activity. So opposition does not exist in Uzbekistan. There are parties and and like as under Karimov, they are not real opposition parties.
Economic Challenges and Social Structure
00:19:11
Speaker
And there is it's one man rule. And Misioyev, In 2023, the constitution was changed in such a way that Mirzov can actually rule for nearly as long as Karimov, even though it still has a two term limit.
00:19:24
Speaker
But it's been changed so that he can rule, in fact, for until 2037, theoretically, although he'd be 80 by that time. So it's still a very politically repressive country.
00:19:36
Speaker
but one of the key questions I have about the country as well, are they rich in or like in minerals and oil and oil and gas, like say Kazakhstan as well? like what Where do they get a lot of their income from?
00:19:48
Speaker
and They're rich in gas, um yeah, not much oil, but they're quite rich in gas. um So they get a lot of income from that. But it's not like in say Kazakhstan, really, the and um a lot of, them almost the entire economy is based on oil. Well, that's an exaggeration, but it's very, very dependent on oil Uzbekistan much more diverse of our economy.
00:20:07
Speaker
um Also the reserves are smaller of gas compared to Kazakhstan's oil, but um but but they do um they do get a lot of income from gas, although and they have so theyre because of this booming population and um also booming economy, actually, a fairly booming economy, they've suffered from domestic gas shortages for several years now, which create power shortages.
00:20:28
Speaker
So they're actually kind of end going to end gas exports. But they get also income from gold. and They have uranium and they have certain minerals. um And also these days there um there's a hot competition for among the world for rare earths, you know, the critical minerals.
00:20:43
Speaker
um So a lot of people coming into Uzbekistan looking to sign deals on that. and But they also have, um you know, big cotton industry. which has been ah which has you know really shaped the country's history because of the forced labour issue that was related to that.
00:20:57
Speaker
um And they have quite a decent manufacturing base. Also, Joanna, I just realised that we've spoken a lot about men here. do women fit in into society within Uzbekistan? do Do they have any women in high-ranking political roles, business, even even on the ground and and in the home life as well? How are women perceived? or higher It's a very good question. um of The fact that we've spoken ah a lot about men is but probably indicative. but You know, it is a patriarchal society.
00:21:26
Speaker
um You know, Central Asia traditionally is. So there are women in positions of power, but none in any positions of of what I would say real great power. There are female government ministers, but they usually reserve for things like, you know, social affairs and so on.
00:21:41
Speaker
and There is a woman chairs the upper house of parliament and that's a powerful position, even if parliament's not what we would think of as a parliament, but it's a powerful position, high profile. um But, you know, the government's very male dominated. Parliament's male dominated, although there are now quotas for women that um that mean, I think, I guess it it's perhaps 25%. I don't remember the exact figure.
00:22:02
Speaker
So there are quite a few women in parliament. i'm Now, in terms of socially, um Gender roles are quite clearly defined in mostly in Uzbekistan.
00:22:13
Speaker
And it depends obviously where you are. Tashkent is more liberal, the capital. and But you know if you go to some places, they're very traditional. For example, the Fagana Valley, and the most heavily populated part of Uzbekistan, um is a very traditional area.
00:22:28
Speaker
And you know people and in in some parts of Uzbekistan, you know, it's still the case that families don't like women working outside the home. So, for example, um I do have a chapter in Silk Mirage on silk, as you would hope, because it's called Silk Mirage.
00:22:43
Speaker
And, um you know, I was told in several places and that weaving is often done by outsourced to women at home and the the the people who need it, give them the looms and so on, because that's a job they can do at home. So, you know, there are some very traditional roles um and people are very quite conservative, can be quite conservative in their outlook on that.
00:23:05
Speaker
There's also a big problem with violence against women. um But this has been tackled, actually, by the Mirzi Oeva government. um And his daughter, her name is Saeeda Mirzi Oeva, and she's um a very important aide, her official role to the president, has been very spit much spearheaded that campaign in the face of a lot of opposition from conservative you know clergy and all kinds of people in government too. um and they But they have managed to push through legislation on that. and So that's been a big ah big moment actually for for women's rights in Uzbekistan and also you know to show the reforming nature of this particular government.
00:23:45
Speaker
um But yeah, sometimes women's position can be you know it can be difficult. um As I say, the yeah patriarchal society ah remains. Just before we we kind of finish off the kind of political set side of the country as well, Joanna, do they have so ah still a very close relationship with Russia and with Putin and and um in relation to import exports and obviously a former Soviet state as well?
00:24:10
Speaker
Yes, I mean, um Uzbekistan still has a close relationship with Russia. um So that goes in terms of it's a very important trade partner. um It's um ah an important political partner. um They've distanced themselves from some of the security relationships that other countries in Central Asia have with Russia. They're not keen on on military blocs or anything like that.
00:24:32
Speaker
um In fact, they've written it into their legislation. And I think that's been to distance it from Russia a little bit. Karimov was um famously was always quite prickly about Russia and was hostile to the colonial legacy.
00:24:44
Speaker
He would openly criticize it, even though he was part part of the system, actually, um in a way that, say, in Kazakhstan, they had never been that critical publicly about it. But he was hostile towards it.
00:24:56
Speaker
And he distanced um Uzbekistan from Russia um quite a lot.
Uzbekistan’s International Relations and Security
00:25:01
Speaker
At various times, he would you know it would go closer or or not so close, but but he distanced Uzbekistan from Russia.
00:25:07
Speaker
Mirzyoyev seems to be more cooperative with Russia and closer to Russia. they're They're not as tightly sort of embedded in the relationship as, say, Kazakhstan, with its 7,000 kilometer border with Russia.
00:25:20
Speaker
um But they do have a lot of partnerships and close relationships. you know We've actually got the Russian Foreign Minister will be going there, I think it's today. And Putin had a really big red red carpet treatment when he visited last year.
00:25:34
Speaker
Of course, the war in Ukraine has been a ah ah factor that has rattled nerves in Central Asia because they also, um like Ukraine, former colonies of Russia, But Uzbekistan obviously is a distance. It doesn't have a border with Russia and has huge Kazakhstan between it and Russia.
00:25:50
Speaker
um However, they've also done what most of the Central Asian states, all of them really have done, not criticise Russia over the war, but not support it either. So they're trying to keep a ah balance.
00:26:01
Speaker
And it's a bit of a tightrope walk. Before we finish off, if we were a tourist and we were going to go, are there any particular highlights you you would recommend for someone to go to? So first off, sorry, is it okay to go to Uzbekistan as a Westerner?
00:26:15
Speaker
And second of all, where would you recommend that people would go and see and travel to? Yeah, it's definitely okay to visit Uzbekistan. Very welcoming people. There's a big drive to increase tourism, which means that I'd say it's not quite as unspoilt as it used to be, for me anyway.
00:26:31
Speaker
um There's a great big drive to increase tourism. People get a warm welcome everywhere in Uzbekistan. The top sites are, of course, Bukhara, Samarkand, and Hever. And those are, of course, the ones with the most tourists.
00:26:44
Speaker
But there's so much else to see. i mean, those are really must sees, of course, but um there there is so much else to see as well. I mean, Tashkent lately is trying to promote its kind of um legacy of Soviet modernist um architecture. and it's actually very interesting architecturally, Tashkent.
00:27:00
Speaker
Although when you first get to it, it looks kind of, it can be a bit kind of drab. It hasn't gotten so many big monuments like these Silk Road cities. It's own it's got one big one in the old town, but it's a very interesting city with an interesting history.
00:27:13
Speaker
But also I would highly recommend visiting Karakal, Pakistan. A somewhat troubled place in the sense that there was a big bout of violence there in 2022. But it's ah and an amazing place with a very different culture from from Uzbekistan proper.
00:27:27
Speaker
um It has its own language, which is closer to Kazakh. It it has has its own culture and its people have this nomadic past, whereas Uzbeks are always settled people. So they... They're very different. They look different.
00:27:39
Speaker
They speak a different language. um And in Uzbekistan, in Karakalpaksan, the capital, Nukhus, there's the most incredible um art gallery, which um was founded by a man called Igor Savitsky,
00:27:53
Speaker
who basically squirreled away a lot of um forbidden art during Soviet times and kind of secreted it in the desert, um oh in this remote place. And now it's displayed in a gallery, an amazing collection of avant-garde and other things too, socialist realism too.
00:28:09
Speaker
um And of course in Karakabakstena as well, you can also visit the disappearing Aral Sea, which is a very long drive now because it's because it's shrinking because of the cotton sector and the irrigation. um And Uzbekistan also has some amazing kind of mountain places and desert places.
00:28:26
Speaker
So there's an awful lot to see. so so it's So you highly recommend that people go there. That sounds like a fantastic country. And you could also do a short hop over to Kazakhstan as well, Joanna. Certainly. I mean, Uzbekistan is the the only Central Asian country that borders all the others.
00:28:40
Speaker
um So you can do a short hop to any of them.
Tourism and Cultural Attractions
00:28:42
Speaker
In fact, I mean, you might struggle with a visa for Turkmenistan, but most of the countries in Central Asia are now visa-free for western and most Westerners. um So it's very easy to visit them and to combine Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, or whatever, Tajikistan.
00:28:56
Speaker
um So there's a lot to take in, I would say. And Joanna, Silk Mirage is out next week, published by Bloomsbury. And I really can't wait to read it. Is there one thing that kind of stuck out for you that you maybe didn't know about the country beforehand? Is good good or bad?
00:29:12
Speaker
Well, that's a difficult question. One thing that I didn't know about the country beforehand... I think what's really stuck out for me is I set out with Silk Mirage. I set out. um It's a little bit different to my book on Kazakhstan and because Uzbekistan experienced a big change of power in 2016 that has been a real kind of watershed for the country.
00:29:34
Speaker
um So I set out to kind of look at what's changed and what hasn't changed really, to kind of draw, to make a portrait of modern day Uzbekistan, but also to do it from the point of view as well, how, how the point of view of how have Mizua's reforms changed life for Uzbeks.
00:29:51
Speaker
And I think what's what's really struck me is that his reforms have been very far reaching in many ways, but there are many red lines to his reform agenda. And I would say,
00:30:03
Speaker
Despite um backsliding towards authoritarian authoritarianism in recent years, life has changed for the better for Rousseau-Vergsander Miseau, not for everybody, including the people who get jailed under his watch on his watch.
00:30:17
Speaker
I think they have transformed the country in many ways. But I suppose what was striking to me... Yeah, the most striking thing to me is probably had I thought deeply about it before embarking on the book, I would i would have realised this. But what's been very striking for me is it is very difficult to drag a country out of dictatorship when you've got a brutal, tyrannical dictatorship like the one Karimov, you know,
00:30:43
Speaker
um fostered, bred, you know, for all with all the best will in the world, you will find it very difficult to reform that dictatorship. And it's a big question of whether you can reform it or whether what you really need to do is replace it.
00:30:56
Speaker
um You know, Miseo has these red lines in his reform agenda. We've discussed some of them. Political but political opposition is one. um And so is too much criticism by journalists, you know, where even though he professes to support free journalism.
00:31:08
Speaker
um So it struck me very much. um Yeah, very difficult to drag a country out of dictatorship. And there are very powerful vested interests that push back. In the case of Uzbekistan, these are very much associated with the security service, um which Mirziwe have um tried to tame and reform, but which seems to have bounced back with a vengeance. I mean, vested interests, you know, they don't have an interest in reform, in liberal reform.
00:31:33
Speaker
um And also, it's also another thing that struck me, I suppose, is watching the system make the same mistakes again. You know, we're seeing the family. You know, we we saw huge corruption scandals involving the president's daughter under Karimov, Gulnada Karimov. She's now in prison.
00:31:50
Speaker
But now we're seeing the family with enormous business interests. Now, OK, there's no suggestion of actual malfeasance, ah crimes being committed. But people in Uzbekistan are talking a lot amongst themselves about nepotism and cronyism that are allowing the president's family to get ahead nicely. um And that's in a country where poverty is a big problem. And so um people do see that as a big problem.
00:32:13
Speaker
ah But as I say, yeah, my big my big takeaway is it is really difficult to reform a dictatorship. It's brave to try and do it. It's sad that there's backsliding. And, you know, I think one of the things I'd like St Mirage to do is be a reminder of the euphoria of the early days and um why it might be in Miseo's interest to try and return to that instead of backsliding.
Reflections and Podcast Closure
00:32:34
Speaker
Slide forward. Exactly. p Fantastic. That's brilliant. Thank you very much. but um I was on your Twitter account recently there and I noticed a lot of your reporting is on those people who are trying to push back against the presidency and bring an opposition. But unfortunately for them, they're getting jail time. boots are They're not getting a voice as well. And even the state media, radio, Internet, TV is just completely controlled by the government. So they really don't have a chance, unfortunately, at minute.
00:33:00
Speaker
But in five to 10 years, you never know. It could be a could go a different direction. All being well. You never know as well as, and that's right, because also Mizuov has let the genie out of the bottle. There were so many more open discussions in Uzbekistan than when I lived there. People were very, very frightened to talk. even you know Even people who knew quite well wouldn't want to talk about politics.
00:33:18
Speaker
But nowadays, people are more open to this open, people discuss more, people have a sense because they've been told by Mizuov that they have rights. So now they want to stand up for them. So things are changing.
00:33:30
Speaker
And I think we can hope, you know, i mean, we don't know. But we can hope that, you know, that that um that things will improve and that the reform process will get back on track and that, you know, things will go well for Uzbeks. And I hope that in Silk Mirage, at least, I've tried to give people a voice to talk about them. And there were some very brave people who are fighting for their rights and their principles.
00:33:51
Speaker
um it So Silk Mirage is a little bit about the kind of cracks in these authoritarian regimes where the light gets in.
00:33:59
Speaker
That was Joanna Lillis, journalist and author of Dark Shadows Inside the Secret World of Kazakhstan and her latest book, Silk Mirage Through the Looking Glass in Uzbekistan. A huge thank you to Joanna for once again sharing her expertise and offering us a window into a truly fascinating part of the world.
00:34:18
Speaker
If you'd like to learn more about Uzbekistan's complex journey and its vibrant society, you can find Silk Mirage online or at your favourite bookstore. It's available through Amazon, independent booksellers and from publishers like Bloomsbury.
00:34:33
Speaker
Be sure to subscribe and rate Pieces of History on iTunes and Spotify. And if you'd like to get in touch, you can reach me at piecesofhistoryatoutlook.com or follow along on Instagram and Facebook at Pieces of he History.
00:34:45
Speaker
Thanks for listening.