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Drawing the Roman Past
70 Plays2 months ago
Episode twenty of the new season of Pieces of History brings us into the world of Roman Britain through the work of archaeologist and illustrator Dr. David Neal. Over his career, Dr. Neal has recorded and interpreted some of the most important mosaics ever uncovered in Britain.
We’ll trace his journey from early influences and training, to the moment he discovered the connection between art and archaeology. Along the way, Dr. Neal explains what mosaics are, why they matter, and what they reveal about Roman society and daily life. He shares how he developed new techniques to document them, the challenges of balancing creativity with accuracy, and the milestones that shaped his career.
From the evolution of archaeological recording in the digital age to the enduring role of traditional illustration, we’ll explore how his work has preserved the Roman past for future generations.
Join us for a conversation that uncovers not only the beauty of Roman mosaics, but also the craft of bringing them back to life on the page.
Email: piecesofhistorypod@outlook.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Roman Britain with Dr. David Neill
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Pieces of History. I'm Colin McGrath and in each episode explore both the well-known and the overlooked stories that have shaped our world. Today we're stepping into the world of Roman Britain with archaeologist and illustrator Dr David Neill.
00:00:30
Speaker
Over his career, Dr Neil has recorded and interpreted some of the most important mosaics ever uncovered, bringing the Roman past to life through his art. Together we'll explore his journey from early influences and training to the techniques he developed for documenting mosaics and the balance he struck between creativity and accuracy.
00:00:51
Speaker
Along the way, Dr Neil reflects on the significance of mosaics for understanding Roman society, the milestones of his career and how illustration continues to play a vital role in archaeology, even in the digital age.
Dr. Neill's Early Archaeology Experiences
00:01:06
Speaker
Dr Neil, thanks very much for joining me. Before we get into the the background of mosaics themselves, could you tell me about your your background? What sparked your interest in archaeology and how you discovered the connection between art and the study of the past?
00:01:21
Speaker
Well, i was I came from London. I was born in London and in 1950 moved to Hemel Hempstead, the new town. Of course, Hemel Hempstead is very close to ah very la in St Albans.
00:01:34
Speaker
So in the nineteen fifty s I would go there quite often to look at the museum and look at excavations. But the first excavation that I ever joined, in fact, was at Northolt, a deserted a um house at Northolt, which was being dug by ah gentleman called John Hurst.
00:01:57
Speaker
Anyway, but that was just for an odd... I used to go up there i loved watching them working. And in 19... fifty eight The supervisor, lady called Molly Cotton, was said, you come here so often, why don't you why don't you help passing me a trowel at the same time?
00:02:16
Speaker
So there we are. So I was passed this trowel and from then on, I just fell in love with archaeology. So there was Roman archaeology. First thing, I didn't fully understand the first thing excavated, but then I was asked to excavate an oven, a Roman oven, and it was quite clear was an oven. I didn't have to interpret it. It was obvious, and I had to clean it up and make it look good for photography, which I did.
00:02:45
Speaker
And i would every every summer, I would go and join the excavations at Volemium and became... effectively part of the team. Although, of course, I was a student then at Watford School of Art, um doing graphic design
Career Beginnings in Archaeology and Illustration
00:03:01
Speaker
work.
00:03:01
Speaker
And um I was on a sort of a part-time course, but covered, in fact, it covered six years at art school. But in 1959, I think was 58 or 59, was asked to excavate rather battered mosaic.
00:03:14
Speaker
i was asked to excavate a yeah ah rather battered mosaic I enjoyed doing this work, but I was being i was told that the following day um an expert would come and um to see it.
00:03:30
Speaker
Well, this expert came, but she didn't really understand what she was looking at because it was all broken. It was a geometric mosaic. So I um sketched it out.
00:03:42
Speaker
um on a piece of paper to to explain to her what it would have done. I was advising her. She was supposed to be advising me, but but but that's what happened.
00:03:53
Speaker
And And i then decided that um that I would actually make a drawing of the whole mosaic. So I did that. I did a painting at one to 10 scale and showed it eventually to Professor Shepard Freer, who was directing excavations at the time.
00:04:12
Speaker
He then borrowed it to be photographed. And the next season, when I went back to the excavations, all the students there, hello, Mr. Neal. Hello, Mr. Neal.
00:04:24
Speaker
And I thought, what what is what's the reason for this banter? But in fact, what had happened is that he published this illustration, a full page in the interim report published in the Society of Antiquaries journal,
00:04:41
Speaker
And so ah that was my very first archaeological recording, my very first publication of any kind. Well, in this period during this period, I was working as a designer the Eastern Gas Board.
00:04:56
Speaker
Mr. Thurm Burns to Serve was their slogan, which was so so old fashioned. And of course, the people there were not into modern ah modern day advertising.
00:05:08
Speaker
And I was once I got past my exams, and National Diploma in Graphic Design, I contacted Professor Freer saying that um I wanted to leave my job.
00:05:22
Speaker
And could i did he have any temporary work for me? as a neighbouring, again at Vaux-Lamme. And he wrote back saying, I don't like the idea of you eking out your living, but i so and that there is a ah job going that you might find suitable in the Ancient Monuments branch of the Minutes in London.
00:05:43
Speaker
And I suggest you write to the director of that organisation, which I did. And about two weeks later, I attended this interview watching my two by that time I had two mosaic drawings.
00:05:57
Speaker
So I took the mosaic drawings and a few other and illustrations that I had done. When can you start? it was it it was It was more or less instant.
00:06:08
Speaker
I was a bit worried, but but I had the offer of the job two days later or thereabouts. So my life really was changed then because early in in the September 1962, suppose it sixty two i suppose it was I was then became ah a temporary illustrator.
00:06:28
Speaker
Now, a temporary illustrator doesn't sound very secure, does it? But and my father, and who was a bit troubled by this, but never mind, i became a i i accepted this role of a temporary illustrator.
00:06:42
Speaker
But after six months, it became the term was substantive. So I then became full-time archaeological illustrator for the department. I joined a team of of very professional archaeologists, the Ancient Monuments Inspectorate.
00:06:59
Speaker
It's a wonderful organisation and the very clever people, people from Oxford and Cambridge and other leading universities. And they were only too willing to to share all their knowledge with.
00:07:11
Speaker
And then the person, there was only one illustrator at the time, a lady called Elizabeth Frystone. She resigned to have a child. And I working with a man called Gerald Dunning, who was an expert on medieval pottery.
00:07:27
Speaker
But and everybody just, it was, the tea breaks was like ah an education. It was like a ah university because tea breaks that everybody was just seeing um particular excavations, particular monuments.
00:07:41
Speaker
And so I learned a huge amount. And I was invited by all my colleagues um to join them on excavations or or them wanting my help recording archeological doing archaeological recording for them, either in the office or on site.
00:08:00
Speaker
so So I spent as much, well, almost as much time on sites as being in the office. Well, over time, the office expanded to seven people.
00:08:11
Speaker
And of course I was in charge and i was given total
Significant Discoveries and Contributions in Mosaic Work
00:08:16
Speaker
freedom. It was extraordinary that I, I was told by a lady called Sanya Butcher, who was in charge of the Roman excavations at the time, David, if there are ever mosaics, if you ask to draw mosaic, go and do it. You do not need our permission.
00:08:33
Speaker
Just go and do it. Well, that was wonderful entree and sure enough i had a phone call one friday um from sanya butcher david can you get to hinted st mary in dorset to draw a mosaic which has just just been found oh just a few days previously and apparently it was a very important mosaic so i'll I hot-footed it down there on my Lambretta motor scooter with all my drawing equipment and arrived on the Saturday, that Saturday midday, I suppose, to to help them excavate this wonderful mosaic with and had the head of supposedly of Christ in the centre and in over the Christian emblem.
00:09:24
Speaker
and with a figure of various icon iconography, Bellerophon killing the chimera. So I spent several weeks recording this mosaic on site.
00:09:36
Speaker
And it was, well, it was wonderful, but rather annoying because I arrived on the Saturday, but the owner of the site was the village blacksmith, and he was a devout Methodist and would allow any excavation on the Sunday.
00:09:49
Speaker
so However, it was it was published and my life then became more and more involved with archaeology, practical archaeology, as well as running the archaeological drawing office.
00:10:05
Speaker
Now, how did i become a full-time archaeologist? a road north of Hemel Hempstead was being, a part of the Hemel Hempstead New Town was being constructed and they hit Roman remains.
00:10:18
Speaker
And I went down there to see it, but we didn't understand what it was, but assumed it was part of a villa. The Hemel Hempstead Borough Council at the time wrote to um the Society of Antiquaries London asking who they could employ to excavate direct this excavation.
00:10:40
Speaker
That query was sent to Professor Shepherd Freer, director of the work at St. Albans, David Neal. So I had this letter from the borough council Dear Mr Neal, I hadn't got a degree at that time.
00:10:56
Speaker
um We invite you to excavate the the the Roman Villa. And so we started that work and I was given leave to do to do the work by the government.
00:11:09
Speaker
um which we started in 1963 went on to 1960. h And it so happens that this coincides now, only last weekend.
00:11:20
Speaker
we We reopened the site, so to speak. Now it's underneath a field which is cut close. And as we marked out the site with white lines from a linesman.
00:11:33
Speaker
familiar with making um the laying out football pitches or cricket pitches, but they did an excellent job. But but anyway, I spent 63 to 68 excavating that site all the while ah and during that period I was um for um running the drawing office and carrying out work for other people on various excavations. And indeed, I was asked to do our other excavations in the Hemel Hempstead area, which I did other villas sites. And then and come um ah after 15 years of the archaeological drawing drawing office, as well as digging, of course, and I was digging medieval sites as well as Roman ones, I decided I wanted to be a full-time archaeologist, not just archaeologist.
00:12:22
Speaker
you know not just um running a drawing of this so i did a sideways shift and became a full-time archaeologist with english heritage as it subs subsequently he came so um along i took early retirement when I was 47. Now, a lot of people think, well, it's jolly early too to have retirement.
00:12:49
Speaker
But of course, I didn't retire from
Documenting Roman Britain Mosaics: Techniques and Impact
00:12:51
Speaker
archaeology. I took that early retirement because with a colleague's we embarked on four-volume work on the Roman mosaics of Britain.
00:13:02
Speaker
so and and so on So every single mosaic in Britain is illustrated in in these four volumes. And in fact, there's a fifth volume come out as well.
00:13:15
Speaker
so So that took me huge time, mosaics, and of course I became familiar with them. And it was always better to...
00:13:27
Speaker
poured the mosaics in situ rather than just photograph them. I wanted to see the mosaics because by seeing the mosaics, you can understand them. You look at the mosaic in fine detail.
00:13:39
Speaker
You look at it, you look at it again, you look at it again, and and then you start understanding what you're looking at. And it's this close observation that an archaeological illustrator has, which brings out the the points of an object, whether it's a mosaic or whether it's an iron knife, for example, something very simple.
00:13:57
Speaker
But that keen eye is necessary to do any sort of archaeological planning. Also, in that period, I was invited by Professor White Rodwell, whether I might draw and record the mosaics from Westminster Abbey.
00:14:14
Speaker
Well, I had never seen the mosaics at Westminster Abbey because they were protected by carpets and nino. um Even though my office at the time was in Great Smith Street, it just yards away from Westminster Abbey, I'd never seen it since the mosaics.
00:14:30
Speaker
So Warwick said to me, come next week and but we'll look at them. I had to report to him that although I'd never recorded a medieval mosaic in my life, that the operation would be enormous because Like a Roman mosaic, medieval pavements are made from individual shapes, different shaped stones. A Roman mosaic tend to be square tesseri, about half an inch or one centimetre, a bit more square.
00:15:04
Speaker
But the mosaics at Westminster were sometimes over squares, sometimes triangular, rectangles, all colours, different shapes in different colours. And it meant that I had to spend ah couple of years actually surveying the mosaic.
00:15:20
Speaker
And I had to tell him that it's no good just recording one mosaic, the main mosaic, that we all most people know of the the mosaic on which our kings and queens are anointed, that they are part of an ensemble.
00:15:35
Speaker
The main mosaic, the mosaic around the tomb of Edward the Confessor and other other pavements are all part of an ensemble. They all need to be recorded, including the tomb of of um Henry III.
00:15:50
Speaker
So it took me quite some years to carry out this work. And that was also published with Professor White-Rodwell as a double volume.
00:16:03
Speaker
And that led but another mosaic recording at Canterbury Cathedral, the pavements in Canterbury Cathedral. My whole life has been spent recording pavements and doing archaeological drawing.
00:16:18
Speaker
Dr. Neil, that is absolutely fantastic and so comprehensive. And for anybody listening, I would highly recommend that they go and look at your work because it it is a work of art. It is absolutely fantastic.
00:16:30
Speaker
I watched you on Digging for Britain and I can't remember the name of the particular mosaic that you were working on at that time, but was there a hundred thousand Tesseract in that particular form? Yes, there was um the mosaic that you're referring to, Alice Roberts, interviewed by Alice Roberts, the mosaic from Ketton.
00:16:51
Speaker
That mosaic would have, I would have painted roughly 100,000 teslai in that one mosaic. In fact, the mosaic from Woodchester, which I did in 1973, something would have a half a million teslai.
00:17:08
Speaker
And when Alice Roberts, she said to me as part of this interview, David, if I asked you how many Tesseri you painted in your career, have you any idea?
00:17:22
Speaker
Well, of course, I've no idea at all, but I had probably 50 million. And that is probably not such an off figure.
00:17:34
Speaker
It's more than likely. Yeah. Because I've painted hundreds of mosaics, most of which have now been... the the Those owned by the government have been passed over to the British Museum.
00:17:46
Speaker
And another 300, which I own, have also been passed over to the British Museum. So um at least I'm clearing the depths for when I expire. Yeah.
00:18:01
Speaker
And Dr Neil as well, whenever you first started illustrating as well, like you said at the very start, you didn't have a someone, a mentor, so to speak. So did you come up with this technique yourself then from scratch?
00:18:13
Speaker
Was there somebody else in the field in Europe doing something similar? Well, I'm aware of of drawings made by um a gentleman called Dr Norman Davey, which were Tesserai by Tesserai paintings, watercolours.
00:18:28
Speaker
But although I didn't ever look at them, but for me, it was just that i that's it how it has to be done. It was just an object has to be looked at in great detail and in in um ah to make sure the the colours and the design is correctly illustrated.
00:18:48
Speaker
And the vibrancy of the mosaic is brought out. A lot of illustrations at the time were rather bland. I wanted to, at first, I made the paint rather thick so the chest ray would actually be slightly raised.
00:19:05
Speaker
Although I abandoned that because I couldn't. The time to check to do that with hundreds thousands of tesserit was just ridiculous. So I just painted, but each tesserit was painted individually.
00:19:19
Speaker
And the number of tesserit in a line was not necessarily correct, but the number of tesserit in the width of a line was. So if the band had six Tessari wide, that would be correct. But I wouldn't paint i wouldn't count the numbers, the length of a line, because although it could have been done, it would have taken forever, i know um so I didn't go to that length.
00:19:45
Speaker
The paintings almost three-dimensional when you look at them. they they They give the appearance of being a real mosaic and there's a texture to them. And it saddens me that everybody, people now think that everything can be done with a drone, photographed with a drone.
00:20:03
Speaker
Drones are excellent. the The site can be planned instantly. But um unfortunately, surgical units are now ah using drones, but doing a detailed drawing of of mosaics or the sites.
00:20:22
Speaker
They're relying on strict on the drone. And I but believe that if it's a mosaic, if it's a work of art, we should be a work of art, not just click from a drone. um And it's by looking at, as I've said before, it's by looking again and again at a mosaic that all the subtleties come out and you see the imperfections.
00:20:42
Speaker
I don't, for example, what is there? I don't. fill it if there's a hole i don't fill it up with paint. That hole is part of the archaeological evidence.
00:20:53
Speaker
It may represent ah post-hole, post-Roman period, um and it's telling you the position of ah ah of a timber a timber house, a Saxon house, for example. um So I don't fill in the the gaps.
00:21:08
Speaker
So it says it's strictly an archaeological record of exactly what was found at the time.
Exhibitions and Future Prospects
00:21:15
Speaker
Without, I suppose, blowing your own trumpet, what significance do you think that your work has done to help progress the knowledge of Roman Britain at the time, say, for example? Because if you but without your work and your illustrations, a lot of that just would have gone completely, have been missed, essentially.
00:21:33
Speaker
First of all, if we had see ah had not done the work that we've done with these five volumes, the mosaics would have been illustrated, they would have been published, but the they would have been not published correctly.
00:21:49
Speaker
they that may um they wouldn't They would have just had a photograph taken at an angle. they wouldn't There wouldn't be vertical shots. And what we have done is to literally publish every single mosaic whether it's large or small, in in these four volumes.
00:22:09
Speaker
They're also accompanied by plans of the v of the buildings in which they came. There'll be more illustrations, more plans of Roman villas in these volumes than any other publications.
00:22:22
Speaker
So if if you want to learn something about villas, you go to our mosaic books. they They're all there. I think we can be proud of what we've done. We've achieved to classify and illustrate this aspect of Roman Britain ah mosaics so fully is is something which we have achieved and there has been no comparable corpora on the continent.
00:22:50
Speaker
Yes, they brought out volumes, but nothing like ours. um So I think we can be proud and and and students do use them a great deal.
00:23:02
Speaker
Just as you've touched on students there, Dr Neil, I wanted to ask about people here maybe working in archaeology at the minute and they have a an artistic side as well. What advice would you give them going into this particular field?
00:23:14
Speaker
And also, do we have a lot of people who are following in your footsteps? I'm afraid i don't think we are, um because most people want to use a computer, computerisation, and that's to the fore.
00:23:31
Speaker
And as I said, I'm rather sad that we're relying too much on drones. But the wheel does to turn full circle. and i And I think that we people, they see me at work and they then, I think it will, they will do it again.
00:23:47
Speaker
i'm I'm quite convinced about that. But hope it's not too many years before they do. But um I think that students, you've got have, i think, an artistic background to achieve this, actually.
00:24:01
Speaker
you've got to be trained as a, not just as an archaeologist, but also he trained as an artist. Because being having that artistic, you're more likely to to bring out the quality of an object in the drawing.
00:24:15
Speaker
We're not just talking about mosaics here. You know, was in charge ah of the drawing office for 15 years. So, and we were drawing a whole mass of different materials found on excavations throughout Britain.
00:24:29
Speaker
And, People that had been in art school were better able to illustrate those as objects than people that had not been to art school. They brought out the details the ah much better.
00:24:42
Speaker
They had that feeling, sent that sensitivity, which non-archaeologists as such didn't have. That was my experience of it.
00:24:54
Speaker
when i When I interviewed um staff for my department, invariably I chose somebody who had art school training rather than just archaeological training.
00:25:05
Speaker
suppose my final question would be, you've already got the you've got your five volumes, you you've all also got your book out this year as well, which I which i highly recommend um to people go and and search. Have you ever had a ah ah gallery exhibition of of your work? And you you also said that the British Museum has some of your illustrations as well. Has has there ever been discussion about maybe having a display of them or an exhibition in the future?
00:25:28
Speaker
Well, many years I've had many exhibitions, actually. The last one was many years ago with 87 of my paintings all on display in the Art Gallery at Bath. I've had exhibitions all over the place.
00:25:41
Speaker
In southern England, I've had exhibitions in France, um mean in Germany, in southern northern Cyprus and in America. But now there are so many so many paintings, can there was no ordinary this museum or big enough to house them all, to display them all. Well, you couldn't do it. It needs a big gallery and you need a lot of money.
00:26:05
Speaker
And I have to admit, I've had a major exhibition for for a long time. In fact, the last one was here in my village church, a little bit here. when the title of the exhibition was Westminster Comes to Little Brickhill and there people could see me actually painting the mosaics.
00:26:21
Speaker
i was sitting in front of the altar and people could go along and watch me perform. it's but Perhaps it's about time we had another exhibition.
Conclusion and Podcast Wrap-up
00:26:32
Speaker
That was Dr David Neal, whose work has helped preserve and illuminate the Roman past for generations to come. A huge thank you to him for sharing his experience and insights into lifetime spent at the intersection of archaeology and art.
00:26:45
Speaker
If you'd like to learn more about Roman Britain, its mosaics and the stories they tell, Dr Neal's illustrations remain an extraordinary record of a world uncovered piece by piece. make sure to subscribe and rate Pieces of History on iTunes and Spotify.
00:27:01
Speaker
You can also reach out to me at at outlook.com or follow the podcast on Instagram and Facebook at Pieces of History. Thanks for listening.