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What Happens When No One Knows About Your Great Product?
72 Plays3 years ago
Many companies develop great products.
The problem is few people know about them.
These companies struggle with a lack of money to do marketing. There's too much competition, or they're product-based.
Andrew Grubb is experiencing this first-hand.
As the CEO of ThinkSound, which makes earphones and headphones, Andrew heads up a company that has loyal customers....but not enough of them.
In this episode of Marketing Spark, Andrew talks about the challenges of attracting the spotlight and how Think Sounds plans to leverage community and influencers to drive sales.
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Transcript
Introduction to Marketing Spark Podcast
00:00:12
Speaker
Hi, it's Mark Evans, and you're listening to Marketing Spark, which features conversations with entrepreneurs and marketers about business, sales, and of course, marketing.
Challenges for New Products in Market
00:00:22
Speaker
In an ideal world, marketing puts the spotlight on your brand and products to drive interest and purchase. Well, that's Marketing 101. But many companies, even ones with great products, struggle because the spotlight is elusive.
00:00:36
Speaker
Maybe they don't have enough money to do marketing. Maybe their product doesn't capture the imagination of consumers. Maybe there's too much competition. What happens when you make a great product that no one knows about? How do you become a viable company? What are the different levers that you can pull to generate attention?
Introducing Andrew Grubb, CEO of ThinkSound
00:00:56
Speaker
These are questions that we're going to explore today with Andrew Grubb, CEO with ThinkSound.
00:01:01
Speaker
Think Sound is a company based in Toronto that makes personal audio equipment, including headphones. Welcome to Marketing Spark. Hello, Mark. Thanks for having
Andrew's Journey to Becoming CEO of ThinkSound
00:01:11
Speaker
me. Why don't we start with some background on Think Sound and your journey to the company, which was somewhat a little unorthodox given your background. So I actually started as a customer of Think Sound maybe six or seven years ago.
00:01:26
Speaker
And I still remember how I stumbled across it. And it was really through the audio file forums and looking for even just a set of earbuds or headphones. It didn't really matter. But I had this inkling to try something new to elevate my game. I didn't really know what that meant. And so I bought a pair of things on earbuds at the time. And I refer to it jokingly, but it's also all too serious that it's the most expensive $150 I've ever spent.
00:01:56
Speaker
because it really opened my ears but opened my mind to kind of what music should sound like and you know it was a really hard journey after that because I had to you know my car stereo my home stereo everything had to change so it really made like a profound difference in my life because I've always been a huge fan of music but I just never had experienced it in that way and so you know that was kind of my personal obviously like a massive personal impact but then I found you know I guess maybe
Transitioning ThinkSound to a Canadian Brand
00:02:23
Speaker
I guess, a few years after that, when you're traveling a lot and a lot of virtual meetings, that was picking up then. I found that the standard speakers in my laptop would bug me and I would go towards more higher-end audio products because it represents the voice a little better and I wouldn't get fatigued. I realized it made a big difference for me. I would buy ThinkSound earbuds for everyone on my team and people in my company.
00:02:49
Speaker
And I just felt like people deserve to give it a shot. And then maybe about two years ago or so, I reached out to the founder because I've been the customer forever and I bought tons of stuff from him. And I was just kind of wondering what was going on. He said, yeah, I'm getting a little tired running the business as solopreneur and wasn't really sure what the future was. And I convinced him to kind of
00:03:12
Speaker
you know, I guess let me and another person partner in with a company and sort of bought a big chunk of it off of them and moved it to Canada. And it's now kind of like, we call it like a repatriated company. It's now a Canadian
Passion-Driven Acquisition of ThinkSound
00:03:25
Speaker
firm. So very much out of like personal interest and passion.
00:03:29
Speaker
It's kind of that old story. I think it's Victor Caim who bought Gillette and he ran these commercials for years around the idea that I love the company, love the product so much that I bought the company. And that seems to be the path that you took. Provide some background about you. Like you're not a music executive by any means. You're not even, I don't even know if you play music for that matter. What was your professional journey like before ThinkSound?
00:03:54
Speaker
Yeah, so no, you're right. I mean, when I pick up an instrument, I don't think many people would call it music. So I don't have a lot of talent in music production, let's say. No, my background is funny enough. It started off as engineering, but quickly switched into management and entrepreneurship. And I was
00:04:14
Speaker
been in corporate innovation for a number of years. I also still run a boutique consulting firm around employee experience design. So very B2B working with Fortune 500 companies in a management consulting context.
ThinkSound's Mission and Sustainable Practices
00:04:29
Speaker
Why don't we talk a little bit about ThinkSound? What does the company do? What kind of products does it make? Where does it fall in the scheme of things? Because obviously you can buy some cheapy headphones off Amazon for 10 bucks.
00:04:40
Speaker
And at the high end, you can buy beats and bows and all kinds of really amazing products. What does ThinkSound do and where does it fall on the spectrum?
00:04:49
Speaker
Primarily, the number one condition we have to satisfy is, does it sound good? Our internal goal is to make sustainably made portable audio products that beat our competitors at three to five times the price. That's our internal mission, if you will. The way we go about it is a lot of companies have manufacturing set up overseas, whether it's
00:05:13
Speaker
Taiwan or Korea or China. We're no different. The difference here is our original founder, Aaron Fournier, he spent five years overseas, primarily in China, working for high-end audio houses, the infinities and clutches of the world, setting up manufacturing and product development and design.
00:05:33
Speaker
And actually, that's when Think Sound was born, was out of just a sheer disgust of how few companies actually used engineered products. And they just took off the shelf, how expensive everything was, how inaccessible kind of audiophile level headphones were, and also that everything ended up in a landfill. And so those were kind of, I call it, it was like, Think Sound's kind of based off of three disgusts, not necessarily a passion, but like a violent reaction to kind of how the world was working.
Impact of COVID-19 on ThinkSound
00:06:02
Speaker
And so where we sit is there's a pretty linear relationship in the market between cost and quality, like sound quality. We're going to air quote that.
00:06:12
Speaker
Because as soon as an audio file hears this, it's like, ah, there's so much subjectivity. And so of course there is, there's tons. And so what we do is we try, you know, our goal is to kind of disrupt that curve a little bit. And there are other companies doing it, of course, but we try and sit kind of in the, I don't know if you know Bowers and Wilkins, we're kind of in the B&W range of audio quality, a little bit less expensive. So our headphones, like I'm wearing
00:06:36
Speaker
ov twenty ones right now their retail for five hundred dollars and we regularly compete against you know fifteen hundred two thousand dollar clip shed phones as an example are kind of internal mission is for more people to hear music the way it was meant to be heard and there's two parts to that there's music the way it was meant to be heard so it has to sound great and more people so it has to be more accessible and that generally means lower price.
00:06:58
Speaker
Where's the company at in terms of its growth? You repatriated the company back to Canada. You're making product. It sounds like the portfolio is expanding. Where are you from a sales perspective? It's interesting. On one hand, it's like not encouraging at all. But it's very much by design. When we kind of reset, when we join the firm, we reset the entire company, you know, rebranded absolutely everything, like we did all of our product line. And so we started
00:07:25
Speaker
in our R&D. So we basically took everything off the shelf for about a year. And then we started with what we could get quickest to the market, which was a wired earbud. And then eventually we came up with these over-ears. We have a couple of other products in development. It's been very challenging. So I would say right now, quick answer, two products in market, both wired, one in-ear, one over-ear. We have multiple wireless as well as in-home. We have a pair of bookshelf speakers that we're designing.
00:07:52
Speaker
COVID has been incredibly challenging, not only with the global chip shortage supply, so all of our Bluetooth products just ground to a halt a year ago. We can't do any more research and development on them. Dealing with manufacturers overseas without being able to go and sit there in the factory, that's difficult.
ThinkSound's Marketing and Community Engagement
00:08:11
Speaker
And so things take a lot longer. So we probably lost a year of development in the past two years, which I know is a common story. But for us, it's kind of frustrating when you put everything on hold,
00:08:22
Speaker
You just completely reset the firm and then when you start, it's a lot slower than you want it to be as far as development. Luckily, when we launch a new product, we always do pre-sale with our existing customers and the uptake is really good. We have a loyal group of customers and I'm always overjoyed that, honestly, that anybody buys a product without hearing it.
00:08:45
Speaker
It always makes me happy. So what kind of marketing has ThinkSound done over the past year or so? Obviously, when you've got supply constraints and development challenges, you probably want to throttle back on marketing. Are you doing any right now? And if so, what kind of marketing is happening?
00:09:06
Speaker
So it's interesting. I was thinking about this and preparing for a conversation. The growth of the company, let's say, was founded on word of mouth grassroots marketing. And literally what that means is Aaron, our original founder, he's a bassist for a metal band, he's a huge metal head, and he would
00:09:29
Speaker
almost roadie with a lot of metal bands and he'd go to these festivals and concerts and Everyone would kind of get along and then the musicians would start using the headphones and then it would kind of circle through the cycle through the network and then you know fans of those of those types of music would would Kind of like catch on and so we have like a die-hard metal and jazz Following so people who listen to certain bands would kind of have an affinity to our products which is very
00:09:55
Speaker
which is, you know, I think that's like a, it's a wonderful feeling to know that our growth is authentic. It's through authentic relationships. And when we kind of translate that to like the last couple of years, that wasn't possible. There's nothing about that that was possible. There's no music festival. There's no concerts. None of that has happened. So we've experimented with kind of sponsoring
00:10:15
Speaker
at home concerts. Very limited success with that. We've also sponsored music festivals. You know, it's interesting because there's kind of two sides to it. One is, hey, what kind of reaction do we get from artists? Like, so from hip hop and R&B artists, what kind of, this is this one festival in Toronto.
00:10:32
Speaker
What kind of reaction do we get from them? And then how many sales do we make as a result? And it's hard because as fans of music and obviously fans of our product, we get caught up in just caring about artists' feedback. And when people listen to it and they say, this is amazing, I would rather hear a compliment than make a sale. It's almost like we're
00:10:53
Speaker
we're being a little self-sacrificial by saying, let's put ourselves into a place where we develop interest and validation in what we're doing, but those aren't the same people who buy our products necessarily. So there have been a lot of commercially, maybe unsuccessful ventures in marketing and sales, but they feel really good, which is really funny. And considering this is very much a passion for all of us,
00:11:16
Speaker
It's not necessarily our core source of income. We don't really question that maybe enough, but it aligns with our philosophy. But as far as what has worked kind of commercially, we have, again, kind of thinking about networks and musicians. There's a lot of musicians kind of that we're friends with and they've promoted our products on their channels and we're allowed to kind of
00:11:39
Speaker
promote their new album releases and tour dates on ours, and we have kind of a bit of a collaboration that generates a lot of interest, which is good. Funny enough, because we have such a loyal following, anytime we release a new product, that's where most of our sales come from, is people who already know us.
Educating Consumers and Marketing Strategies
00:11:52
Speaker
A couple places where I want to go. One, there was an article
00:11:58
Speaker
Written about think sound and I think the title was how do you sell a product that no one knows about how do you sell a great product that no one knows about. So from a marketing perspective what are your thoughts about the fact that this product is so good you have raving fans who obviously upgrade every time that you.
00:12:16
Speaker
launch new products. The bang for the buck, obviously, it sounds like it's amazing, which makes me believe that there's lots of people who like the combination of good prices and great quality. Where does that play in terms of the whole marketing and sales scheme? How do you get that message out to the marketplace? Well, I think embedded in that is a bit of education. If we're trying to disrupt that curve that I referred to a while ago, there's the idea that we need to kind of educate some of the market. And I know this is something we've spoken about is
00:12:45
Speaker
Do you spend all of your time and effort educating and then hoping that that gets attributed to you? That you don't just convince people to go look for better things and then go buy somewhere else. We obviously want both. We want people to make an intelligent purchase. We also want them to make that purchase with us, partly because we're a business and partly because we believe in what we make. So there's kind of like a synergy there, if you will.
00:13:07
Speaker
If I had a good answer, I think that'd be too simple. It's a really tricky question because there are, I guess my more skeptical side would say that we've fallen into this expectation within B2C goods that advertising is the way that people learn about things and advertising is the way that companies reach people. Those with bigger advertising budgets will get those people. That can be true. The question we have to ask ourselves is,
00:13:36
Speaker
Does that align with how we want to grow our company? In the B2B SaaS world where I spend a lot of time these days, most of my time these days, a concept that is rearing its head is community. And community is sexy right now because it's a way of doing marketing and sales, but having other people do it for you. So rather than having to spend the money on advertising,
00:14:00
Speaker
and content and going to conferences, you nurture these communities where you have raving fans and they become evangelists and advocates and they amplify the brand and spread the word. And it strikes me that the marketing asset that ThinkSound does have is a community.
00:14:19
Speaker
What are your thoughts and plans to leverage that? People love your product. People love to talk about your product. How do you activate them so that they become, in some respects, a marketing and sales army? Yeah, it's a great question. And I would say we've actually done a decent job in activating it. Our problem is our community is small.
00:14:39
Speaker
And I think our core challenge right now is to grow the community, which I can't really speak to the success of that because we are literally just starting that. In the past couple months, we started trying to grow a community. And a lot of that is through influencer marketing. It isn't necessarily like I'm not a huge fan of paying people a ton of money because they have a ton of followers. I'm more of the nano and micro influencers because they tend to have more
00:15:04
Speaker
relevant and aligned followers and people pay attention to what they say. In general, I would say my response, it's a bit of a fictitious and imaginary response because it's what we plan to do. Talk to you in three months and tell you how it
Authenticity in Reviews and Influencer Marketing
00:15:17
Speaker
goes. But we need to go create a network of, I say influencers, but I don't want to use it in the same term as they're kind of common parallel. It's like people who can influence others and we want to incentivize them to influence others.
00:15:31
Speaker
a lot of these people aren't necessarily music lovers. So we know that, you know, it used to be that headphones were used for music and then headphones started being used for like work and travel and gaming is massive. And we have to kind of, we know we have to branch outside of music in order to kind of really broaden our community.
00:15:48
Speaker
When I think of influencer marketing, it sounds kind of slimy. It sounds a little dirty. It sounds like there's a lot of pay per play. And perhaps a lot of influencer marketing is not authentic. These influencers don't necessarily like the products or love the products that they're promoting.
00:16:07
Speaker
What's your approach to influencer marketing? How do you identify them? How do you attract them and how do you compensate them? Because you want people who are obviously music lovers or video game lovers or they're always on zoom and they want a better approach to using audio. How do you discover them and how do you get them on site and how do you how do you keep them?
00:16:27
Speaker
three months from now, I'll let you know. I have guesses like this is where we're starting to experiment with that, but I absolutely agree. So considering, you know, I know I've said it a couple times, but we kind of demand authentic growth out of ourselves. And so we don't want to convince people that
00:16:44
Speaker
don't want to be convinced. We don't want slimy influencer marketing. We don't want to grow through channels that don't believe that we actually have a good product. The idea of pay for play without alignment of why the product exists, I'm not into that. I can't say exactly how we're going to do it because I don't actually know yet to try a few different ways.
00:17:05
Speaker
but absolutely one of our goals is to grow through growth like let's say through influences specific specifically have the have people who believe in and who agree that our product is good those are the ones we want to work with.
00:17:18
Speaker
The hard part for us is that means we have to send out a bunch of free headphones a lot of time. And that can be expensive. That's kind of our commodity. That's our currency, I guess, not our commodity. It's our currency at the moment, which is, in all honesty, no different than the reviewer space. If you think about how, like, how I first found out about ThinkSound was through stereo file, which is an audio file publication. And how did ThinkSound get reviewed on the stereo file seven, eight years ago is kind of the same question we're answering now.
Creative Strategies for Growth and Engagement
00:17:48
Speaker
And when you go to reviewers, there's, we have, uh, luckily Aaron, Aaron has been a part of this community for many, many years. There's a lot of reviewers that really like him and really trust his product. And they'll, they'll, they'll put us ahead of line from, you know, whatever's coming out of, you know, Sony or Klipsch's.
00:18:05
Speaker
lab, they'll say, yeah, no, we know this is going to, we know that we're going to have an emotional reaction to this and we're going to have thoughts about it. So we'll, we'll write a review on it. And that's great. There are still a ton of reviewers that say, yeah, no problems. Give me 10 grand and I'll review your product. Right. I have zero interest.
00:18:20
Speaker
We've been approached by so many publications for Christmas Wishlist. To get onto Oprah's holiday gift-giving guide, you've got to cut a $50,000 check. To me, that's not authentic. That isn't the channel believing in the product. That's the channel believing in the paycheck. That doesn't interest me. Well, that's the reality for a lot of companies, particularly startups who have limited marketing budgets.
00:18:48
Speaker
They are the Davids trying to battle the Goliath. What are your thoughts from a management perspective, from a strategic perspective, in terms of the levers that David can pull to battle Goliath when you don't have the financial resources to go head to head? It's so funny. I used to have this similar conversation. So I used to work for Mercer, big HR consulting firm. And we would talk about market research all the time. And it was always you had to pay a bunch of money to get market research and you had to pay to get all these opinions.
00:19:18
Speaker
And there's a coffee shop at the bottom floor of the building. And in that coffee shop is 25 people every 15 minutes walking in that are our ideal customer. What does it cost us to go down there and ask them questions? It's free. Some would call that guerilla marketing because you're going out and getting in people's faces. Guerilla marketing is absolutely free, and it's a great way to go. You don't necessarily have to pay through the traditional channels. You have to start, I guess the question you have to answer is like, so what works?
00:19:47
Speaker
And you can either figure out what works through paying for a bunch of different things, or you can go talk to a bunch of people. And sometimes it costs money to talk to people. So if you have no budget, then you have to assume you have no budget and you have to figure out a way to do it. It's hard to say in this virtual world we've been working in for the past while, but as humans start interacting with each other more and more, we can start actually walking down the street and having collisions. That being said,
00:20:12
Speaker
Reddit is a fantastic place and there is no advertising allowed on Reddit, but you have to be ready for the feedback on Reddit.
00:20:23
Speaker
the marketing plan for ThinkSound in 2022. Obviously community will come back and you've got some plans for community, which will be fueled by the fact that we'll see concerts come back. I guess in the States it's already happening in Canada. We're waiting for that to happen. Festivals, that kind of thing. If you're not going to be leveraging advertising, which it sounds like that's not going to happen,
00:20:49
Speaker
What are your marketing plans? What are the channels that you're going to exploit? How do you raise the company's profile? How do you educate consumers to ultimately drive revenue? Because I mean, you can run this thing as a hobby for a few years. And if it's if it long as it breaks even, I guess that's okay. But I suspect your aspirations are mixed. On one hand, you're an audiophile who
00:21:11
Speaker
loves the product and just wants to have some fun along the way. And the other hand, you're a business guy. You know, you can't allocate time when there's no ROI. So I guess that's a long winded question about, you know, what are we going to see from ThinkSound as far as marketing is concerned in 2022? Oh, for sure. Yeah. So there's two easy answers, but I'm going to start with your last comment about the hobby. I agree. There is, there's like kind of like an internal personal conflict, right? But at the end of the day, if our mission
00:21:38
Speaker
is for more people to hear music the way it was meant to be heard. And if I believe in the product that we've designed, then people people deserve for me to try and grow the company and for not just me, but the team. Like this is what if I believe this is what the world needs and the world needs it.
00:21:54
Speaker
And it has nothing to do with me finding time or investing it and running it as a hobby. I have to believe that there's a reason why we created this product. That's not just for me, as much as I joke that I'm really getting the company to design products for myself, because this is what I want. And it's the most expensive pair of headphones I could have bought, which is kind of stupid. Design a whole freaking product. So there's a little piece of me that's a little bit rebellious to your perspective, but I agree with your perspective.
00:22:23
Speaker
So the two ways that we absolutely plan on growing. So going back to kind of the influencer marketing side, I don't want to call it that. So building that community, but key is building
00:22:35
Speaker
going deep on a narrow community. Instead of just spreading ourselves really thin and saying, hey, let's go talk to gaming people. Yeah, no. That's way too wide. So we need to go very focused on where we're going to be leveraging. Let's call it personal individual brands to amplify our brand. So that would be my kind of maybe PC way of describing an influencer. So that's number one for sure we're doing that.
00:23:02
Speaker
Actually, I'm going to give you a bonus third, which I don't know if it'll generate money, but it's really interesting. The second is through music festivals. And again, this isn't necessarily for the attendees of the festival, but we've already lined up with a couple of different festivals to be backstage with artists, talking to them. It's been a great avenue for more hardcore hardware producers. I know the CEO of the
00:23:28
Speaker
The Sound of Music Festival here in Burlington, he was telling me this story about a guitar designer and a guitar maker that got backstage with a bunch of bands. The guy loved his guitar. He said, hey, come on backstage, hang out all day. And he sold, I don't know, $50,000 worth of guitars that day.
00:23:45
Speaker
he was there with a product that people loved. And they said, yeah, you know what? I love this product and I support you and I appreciate that you're here. So that's the second main lever for us, if you will. The third one, which I'm not sure if it's going to make money. I really don't know and I really don't care, is
00:24:01
Speaker
I'm starting to talk to a couple different artists and like musicians about kind of like limited run versions of headphones. And the idea being, and this is where it sounds good on paper, but I really don't know how it'll go, is a lot of bands have kind of fan clubs, at least fan clubs, you pay a nominal fee, 40 or 50 bucks a year sometimes. And you get early access to tickets, you get certain limited edition merch and things like that.
00:24:28
Speaker
And really the idea is like, hey, can we give bands another way to get in the home of their fans? And so right now the way bands get into kind of physical interaction with people's lives is you buy their record, you buy their t-shirt, you go to their concert.
00:24:44
Speaker
The concert is the only musical piece of that, like the record is there for sure, obviously. But none of that, I shouldn't say none of it, you know, kind of connects with an experience, but the headphone is another way to kind of bring the band into someone's life.
ThinkSound's Unique Value Proposition
00:24:57
Speaker
That's something we're exploring. I like the idea of helping the bands establish a better connection. I don't know how beneficial it'll be, but it's something that I want to do.
00:25:06
Speaker
Two final questions, one hard and one easy. I'll start with the hard question. If someone were considering the purchase of earphones or over-the-ear headphones right now, why should they buy ThinkSound versus a Sony or Klipsch or Sennheiser or Beats? What makes ThinkSound better? Dollar for dollar, we're gonna be better sound, sound quality, absolutely. That's the easy one to me.
00:25:35
Speaker
The other one is maybe this connects with like a secondary reason people make purchases, especially for our over-ears. Everything is made with an incredible focus on sustainability. So our over-ear, all of our packaging from ground up, zero single-use plastics.
00:25:52
Speaker
Everything is paper or made from recycled materials. I can't confirm, but we tried getting biodegradable ink even. It's something we really strive for. The plastic on here, as you make bigger products, you need to use more plastic. We actually partnered with a company out of the States called Eastman Chemical. Our plastic is made out of a bioplastic called Triva. Even our plastic is made out of wood, which is funny. If that's something that you believe in,
00:26:18
Speaker
Good luck finding a sustainably made headphone for many of the big companies. To me, that's the easy part is if sustainability is your focus and you're an audio file, there are very few options.
00:26:31
Speaker
The easy question, thanks for that question. The easy question is where can people learn more about you and as important ThinkSound? ThinkSound.com. You can follow us on Instagram. We don't, we're not super active on Instagram. We really want to stay away from being spammy. So we kind of maybe over index on kind of only like posting every now and again, but those are the best ways to kind of find out about us and engage with us. We're super responsive because this is all of our passion.
00:27:02
Speaker
You know, our turnaround time on communication is pretty instant. If it goes a day without a response, that's kind of sickening to
Connecting with ThinkSound
00:27:09
Speaker
us. A comment and a final question. The comment will be for anyone who
00:27:14
Speaker
is an Instagram fan and a music fan. Listening to this podcast, I'm sure they're going to circle back with you and tell you that you can enjoy the best of both worlds. You can be on Instagram. You can have an active presence. You can build a community and you can avoid being spammy. So prepare yourself for the barrage of social media strategists who will come to you with, uh, with services. Maybe, maybe they'll, maybe you can do a little barter swap, you know, headphones for headphones for free advice, something like that.
00:27:41
Speaker
The other question, well, see Andrew, is it welcomed you if you're a social media strategist and you want a free pair of headphones in exchange? I'm sure he'll be all ears. The other question would be, where can you buy ThinkSound products? So currently, we're direct-to-consumer. ThinkSound.com is our primary source. We basically do, we have three main sources, direct-to-consumer,
00:28:02
Speaker
Amazon and then high-end audio retailers all around the world. Well, thanks for listening to another episode of Marketing Spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review, subscribe via Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app, and share via social media. To learn more about how I help B2B SaaS companies as a fractional CMO, strategic advisor, and coach, send a neat email to mark at markevans.ca or connect with me on LinkedIn.