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Episode 4: Parenting, Masking, and Navigating Neurodiversity with Executive Leader Patti Barnard
106 Plays3 months ago
In this episode of Conversations for Change, we sit down with Patti Barnard — an executive, parent, and lifelong advocate navigating ADHD, sensory processing disorder, and raising her autistic son, Luke. Patti brings a powerful blend of professional leadership experience and deeply personal insight into what it means to raise a neurodivergent child while also discovering your own neurodivergence in adulthood.
We explore the emotional weight of masking, the unique challenges women face in receiving an ADHD diagnosis, the hidden load parents carry, and why empathy and awareness in the workplace matter more than ever. Patti also shares what has helped her family thrive, how to advocate for your child in school settings, and why embracing differences can make us all stronger.
This conversation is honest, grounding, and full of moments parents and professionals will connect with.
Connect with Patti: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pattibarnard/
Special thanks to our podcast editor, Will Calkins.
Connect with Will: https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-calkins/
Music for this episode was created by Brandon Cericola.
Contact Brandon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandon-cericola/
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Transcript
Patti's Personal Journey with Neurodivergence
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome back to the Conversations for Change, a podcast by the Nurturing Tomorrow Foundation. Today, we're joined by Patti Barnard, an executive, parent, and advocate with lived experience navigating ADHD, sensory processing disorder, and raising her autistic son, Luke. Patti brings a deeply personal perspective on our invisible struggle, burnout, and what it means to advocate for understanding both at home and in the workplace.
00:00:29
Speaker
Before we dive in, a quick note. We are not mental health professionals. This podcast is for educational and advocacy purposes only. Everything we share reflects our personal perspectives and lived experiences. If you are struggling or need support, we strongly encourage you to reach out to a licensed mental health provider.
00:00:47
Speaker
So Patti, welcome to the podcast.
Career Transition to Legal Support for Startups
00:00:50
Speaker
Let's hear a little bit about you and your professional experiences. Sure. So first of all, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. This is um you know topic I'm really passionate about, both from a professional perspective and a professional perspective. So thank you. So I spent the last 25 years, showing my age, but at an executive level, partnering with CEOs and boards um helping to build legal strategies, helping companies grow while staying smart and compliant. um i've I've been in-house most of my career, if not all of my career, really, until recently. i'd served as a general counsel, a chief legal officer, or chief compliance officer.
00:01:28
Speaker
and as of about a year ago, I'm bringing that same level of support to startups and high growth companies as a fractional general counsel and chief legal officer.
00:01:39
Speaker
You've seen a lot in your career. I've seen a lot. I've seen a lot. And it's, you know, i this, this topic and, you know, this conversation is so near and dear to me because yeah, I've, I've seen
Adult Diagnosis and Gender Differences in ADHD
00:01:51
Speaker
so much. And i even early in my career, from my perspective, I wish I had known, just known more, you know, I I've lived with ADHD.
00:01:59
Speaker
sensory processing disorder, SPD. But I wasn't diagnosed until I was an adult, ah like most women, because we don't show the same symptoms as boys. So it was really easy to diagnose my eldest son who has ADHD because he just wouldn't stop.
00:02:13
Speaker
It was like he wouldn't stop bouncing off the walls, his grades started to slip. you know But for girls, where we're really not physically hyper when we're young, um most girls. Some are. So our i feel like our hyperactivity often just lives in our brain.
00:02:28
Speaker
And that's also just a huge misconception about ADHD in general, because I feel like people think, oh, you have to have that like attention deficit. you know Every single... letter has to check off. You know, you have to be hyper. You have to almost be like, oh, I can't pay attention. And really, we know, you know, it's it's not that.
00:02:47
Speaker
But, you know, more closely to this conversation, I'm also the mom of an autistic son, Lou, who is 18 now. We had him diagnosed when he was about four. So he, we, you know, I say like the best people to know stuff about this topic are parents, because I've just spent, you know,
00:03:05
Speaker
14 years, more or less, you know, just kind of researching everything I can to help Luke and to understand it better. Yeah, I'm sure with parenting, especially with... ah If he was diagnosed at four, I can tell you, base I was diagnosed in my 30s, but for anybody who has known me for any period of time knows there's that meme that goes around that says, like, undiagnosed, but something's definitely off. And it was kind of like that with me.
00:03:33
Speaker
growing up, so I think my mom definitely learned a lot of how to kind of address behaviors differently with with different folks. Now, with learning a lot about Luke growing up, and you talked about yourself being diagnosed with ADHD and SPD, did Luke's diagnosis and the the items you learned with him growing up, did that kind of make you realize a little bit more about yourself and maybe some things that needed
Family Neurodivergence Realizations and Masking
00:04:06
Speaker
addressing. Absolutely.
00:04:07
Speaker
Absolutely. To the point where sometimes I've i've even, you know, I've even like looked to see if myself, if I was misdiagnosed and perhaps I'm on the spectrum. I mean, to that extent, the biggest one, you know, that I realized because he was doing, and I think, you know, we'll get to that later, was masking. Until I saw Luke mask so heavily and until I...
00:04:30
Speaker
You know, the doctors explained he was masking, explained the Coke bottle theory, you know, where they they hold it together all day. And unlike a Coke bottle, you know, you shake it and you put it down and it seems fine. But if you take the lid off, what happens? although It explodes, right? So a long time ago, one of his specialists told us, you know, that's how it is with neurodivergent children. They're holding it together all day like that shaken Coke bottle. And yeah, when he gets home, he is going to explode and he is going, you know, everything's gonna come out because he's been trying so hard to keep it together all day. And you know, I started tuning into that more and I started realizing, well, that's exactly what I've been doing for my whole life. I've been masking, you know, and and not realizing it, not wanting to get on camera for a meeting. It hasn't always been vanity. Sure, some days it is vanity.
00:05:17
Speaker
I'm not gonna get on without a little bit of makeup, but a lot of the times what people don't see is everything that happened before that call, you know, ah how overstimulated a person can be. Where getting on camera isn't, it just isn't, I mean, it's not productive for them, it it makes it harder for them. But yeah, I just think with Luke and with Jake, my oldest and his ADHD, because like I said, I wasn't diagnosed till I was an adult. So I think Having them both diagnosed, my husband also, we're like a family of ADHD here, a family of neurodivergence, so you can imagine what our health is. But the third thing is like, we know it, you know? So now we know it and knowing, you know, is is I was gonna say half the battle, but that again shows my age with the old G.I. Joe cartoons.
00:06:04
Speaker
But it kind of is though, because with my therapist right now, what I'm working on is ah how to pre-regulate a little bit better.
Coping with Professional Demands & Self-Regulation
00:06:13
Speaker
And it kind of ties into what you were talking about with like, if you have a day where you have to be on camera all day or more of the day, and you have to have your smile on, you're you're in the services space. So you need to, you know, provide that smile. yeah you know, everything I have to do all day. And I know if I look at my calendar ahead of time, and I see that I'm going to be on camera all day, then I know I can talk to my wife and say, after work, I'm probably not going to be in a great headspace because i need to unwind. And like, to your point, I can't mask I've just masked for eight plus hours. I can't do it anymore.
00:06:52
Speaker
We talked a little bit about you. We talked a little bit about your son, Luke. I love the fun fact you shared around fishing. I'll leave it up you. The fun fact you shared, explain it to our listeners. Sure. So it is a fun fact because I don't think that most people would take me for a saltwater angler. I'm going to just use the word, even though I'm not that i'm not that great. but So we live in Tampa. we like I've lived in Florida my whole life. So, you know, the water, the beaches, everything is has been a part and ingrained in me a part of my life. I'm also Cuban. So I'm like, I've got island blood in me.
00:07:25
Speaker
That's why I love the water. But yeah, so I met my husband in law school. And, you know, I didn't really like fishing back then or know much, even though I did live in Miami. But he cut he turned me on to fishing. And, you know, it's just been something that we've shared our whole lives together, our whole marriage. We're coming up on 25 years in January. So we finally got a boat.
00:07:44
Speaker
just this past ah this past summer because you know every bonus, every every little bit of money has gone where to the children. then i don't And I'm not complaining, but you know one thing I will say is is married couples put yourself first a little bit more than we did. But anyhow, we finally got the boat this summer. we you know We love getting out there. And yeah, so my biggest catches have been bonnet head sharks.
00:08:08
Speaker
For some reason, I've landed like three of them. yeah I've gotten him baby ones. I've gotten full-size bonnet head sharks, which is really fun. How big are those? um They can get to be about...
00:08:19
Speaker
four feet, so they're pretty big. They're like a mini top ah mini hammerhead shark is what they look like. wow um So yeah, i've caught it I've caught several of those, but like on my bucket list, like the top of my fishing bucket list is a tarpon.
00:08:33
Speaker
I'm still, you know, we're out of tarpon season now. We almost got the boat too late this summer because it ends around August. but And also I need to get in a little bit of better shape because that's that's a lot of work, catching a tarpon.
00:08:46
Speaker
Next tarpon season, hopefully I'll be letting you both know that I i met my bucket list and I i caught that tarpon. I do think that there is a correlation here with your love for saltwater fishing um and how that compares to navigating the waves of parenting and leadership.
00:09:03
Speaker
Your executive level work, I think, gives you a real 360 degree view of high pressure environments. And I would love to know more about how this has shaped your way to advocate for neurodivergent colleagues.
Empathy and Understanding in the Workplace
00:09:15
Speaker
realizing my my own challenges at work, you know, like I said, I could run, i could run like a polished executive all day long, but by the time the day was over, I was out of gas.
00:09:25
Speaker
So that contrast, you know, started to help me realize how much energy masking actually takes. And if I was masking, surely there were more people in the organization, you know, masking the same thing. So, you know, I started to realize and have empathy for not just the neurodivergent individuals at work, but for the people that were supporting them.
00:09:48
Speaker
Because again, For me, it wasn't just my own battles. It was my children, too. And, you know, my husband, some extent, you know, like I said, everyone in this house has some neurodivergency, but, you know, mainly my kids. So, like, mornings felt like a battle for me, as they do for a lot of neurodivergent people. Getting out the door sometimes is overwhelming. And and it it's not just because it's the morning. It's the noise, the transition, the rush, the meltdowns.
00:10:13
Speaker
Those don't happen anymore, you know, because he's 18 now and he's kind of grown out of the meltdowns. But when I say the mornings used to have every other morning was a meltdown. If things weren't a certain way in the morning, if you didn't have that structure, if you didn't have things, his clothes ready or something, it was a meltdown. Mornings were hard. um You know, one thing I remember was I once had a a supervisor years ago when the boys were younger that was calling me at 730 in the morning. Listen, and I get it. At an executive level, you're going to have the calls at 730 in the morning from other execs.
00:10:46
Speaker
But what I said to him was, call me at 7 at night and we're good. But 7 in the morning doesn't work for me. And I explained to him, it disrupts the morning. It disrupts all of it. And And this is, you know, the collateral effects of that are this, this and this.
00:10:59
Speaker
All it took was that conversation, which I was nervous about going into. The conversation ended up where I was, he thanked me for teaching, it like not teaching him, but for making him aware, you know, that when others say mornings are hard, it's not just, we're not morning people. It's not just that we're cranky in the mornings. It's, you know, it's sensory load. It's executive function demands. As Sean, like you were saying earlier, When I look at my calendar and I see that I have all these you know camera like camera calls the rest of the day, I'm already getting anxious.
00:11:28
Speaker
You know what I mean? And people don't realize that. that like The call could be at four and at 10 a.m. I'm already thinking of the call and thinking, oh my gosh, how many hours until I have to get on camera? And you know those are the kind of things that people just don't see.
00:11:42
Speaker
but Having experienced it myself and having experienced it through my kids, I started to realize, you know, that sometimes work environments, just like school environments, aren't the best thing.
00:11:53
Speaker
Something important, I think, as folks listen to this, especially maybe younger listeners that are starting their professional career and working their way up. I think what you talked about, Patty, right there of just having that conversation with the executive to say, hey, what I need is a little bit different than what you need. and That's super important for neurodivergent, neurotypical, anyone. like Everyone has preferences.
00:12:19
Speaker
Maybe it's someone raising a family and they need to step away right at 5 p.m. so they can feed their child, get them ready for bed. um Someone who is neurodivergent or has neurodivergent tendencies and maybe needs to shut off at 5 o'clock and decompress. It's the moment of the day they're looking forward to. Having that conversation, I'll add on to what you said, it seems scary up front, but more times than not, I will say it will probably be fine.
00:12:49
Speaker
Patty, I would love to know, and I think it's really important to bring your experience to attention here, especially for women, but really for everyone navigating neurodivergency in adulthood. Can you recall a certain moment when you finally when someone finally saw like saw you and what you were carrying and how it changed everything for you, whether it was yourself or someone else your life? That's a great question because I really think it's been just myself, you know? I mean, aside from my husband, who's known that since the day he met me. Oh, says he knew it from himself. But putting that aside, ah i it's a lonely world.
00:13:25
Speaker
It's a very lonely world. And I don't know other, maybe because I haven't asked, for whatever reason, I don't know other people that are in my shoes. So sometimes I do feel like I'm on an island, you know, but my own self-awareness has also helped me navigate my life, basically. You know, the camera thing was huge for me. Everyone thought it was, you know, it was a joke. Even like at, you know, sales kickoff, I won, like, least likely to get on camera, ha, ha, ha.
00:13:50
Speaker
You know, but what really everyone didn't know was it wasn't again, it wasn't just about vanity. It wasn't just that I didn't want to get on camera. It was a lot for me sometimes, you know, it still is a lot for me. But now that I work for myself, the level of pressure is off, first of all, because i I know my clients. I know the ones that don't care if I'm on camera. I know the ones that, you know, OK, I'll get on camera, but it's only an hour.
00:14:13
Speaker
You know what saying? So that that pressure was off. But just the pressure of knowing that i had to get on camera or then I was the one that looked like I wasn't engaged or I was the one that didn't look like the, you know, team player because I wasn't on camera. Or even like I had a colleague once say, it looks disrespectful. and And to that person, I did say, really, well, you know what else is disrespectful? Assuming that somebody isn't getting on camera just because they don't want to put on eyeliner or whatever it is you guys think, you know, comb my hair.
00:14:40
Speaker
So, you know, I i just think, Sean, as you were saying, you talking to your your supervisor, and i I think just training leaders, if leaders don't know what's happening, you almost can't blame them for help
Disclosing Neurodivergence in Job Applications
00:14:52
Speaker
but not helping either.
00:14:53
Speaker
You know, not everybody can pick up on on cues that somebody might be neurodivergent. I can, because I have it all around me. But somebody who doesn't have it around them or isn't used to it,
00:15:06
Speaker
You look at Luke and because he's quote unquote high functioning, he doesn't look like anything's wrong with him. You spend 10 to 30 minutes with him, you don't think anything's wrong with him, right? But what everybody doesn't see are all the challenges that we have with him on a daily basis.
00:15:21
Speaker
you know And again, some of those have subsided as because the challenges change. you know You all know that. The challenges change as they get older. and When he was younger, the challenges were were bigger. you know The meltdowns were bigger. You know, and that's another thing as a parent, you have to have thick skin because you're out with, he's always looked older and he's ah he's big, you know, he's a big boy. He's past six feet now, but he's always tall, right?
00:15:43
Speaker
So when, you know, we'd be out in public and he's having a meltdown on the ground like a child and people are like looking and judging and and and like people can be so cruel, you know?
00:15:54
Speaker
I mean, so cool. So, you know, so just navigating the challenges at different stages, I think is important. And then when you get to a workforce, you know, while today we have made a lot of strides as a global workforce. And I think, you know, that's another gap that's missing. So when you, might my like Luke's in a private school right now that caters to neurodivergence, but when he leaves there and he goes to college and when he leaves college and he goes to a workforce, that's a huge challenge and for him because making that transition is not going to be easy.
00:16:27
Speaker
and and And, you know, they don't have 504 plans in workplaces, right? So you got to almost build your own 504 plan. But that also is scary sometimes because you don't know how the company is going to react. Sure, there's laws out there that protect you.
00:16:41
Speaker
But I know more than anybody else, companies can get around laws, you know, so it is challenging for you to go and ask for help and support. So I think The more proactive companies can be, the more awareness the more awareness leaders have. So you see someone struggling, you don't have to point it out.
00:16:58
Speaker
And please don't point it out. As a GC, I'm saying don't point it out. But you don't have to point it out, but you have to be aware and you have to understand and you have to have empathy.
00:17:09
Speaker
I am so glad that you've brought this up as someone who recently has just finishing up grad school, really looking into those next steps. I've been through a lot of process lately where I've been applying for jobs, speaking to different companies and not just for myself, but I really want to ask this for other listeners out there because this has been a conversation I've had with so many people. When is the right time to have that conversation?
00:17:36
Speaker
I mean, if I'm being completely and honestly candid and I'm taking off every professional hat, I personally wouldn't disclose it at the time I'm applying for jobs. Only not because I feel like we need to hide it, but the reality is that there's still bias out there.
00:17:51
Speaker
there is still bias out there and you know yes there are laws like i said and yes companies are supposed to follow the laws and are supposed to not discriminate and use a you know ats software that doesn't discriminate that's another thing some of the software nowadays the ai it's great but you got to make sure that whatever vendors you know as a company you're using for these ats you know tools that they're not building a bias because there's lawsuits out there right now, you know, against iSIMS and I want to say Workday.
00:18:25
Speaker
ah You know, they just came out you know, that these these tools, these ATS tools, like you're saying, you know, where you upload and you do all the questions, they were forming their own bias. that The tools themselves, the AI was forming their own bias. So I've challenged my clients to, if you're using these,
00:18:43
Speaker
tools, challenge the vendor and ask what sort of testing have you done on your software to make sure that they're not creating bias. But that aside, the bias is still out there, unfortunately. So I, I wouldn't, I just wouldn't do it at that stage. You know, once I get the job and I don't feel it's deceitful, I just feel it's reality because You know, unfortunately, that's the thing is that there's still bias out there. And and what people don't understand is like a neurodivergent employee can be one of the best employees you will ever have because they're hardworking.
00:19:15
Speaker
They're so smart, you know, like Luke is so smart and me and my husband are attorneys. And I always tell him, you're the smartest one in this house. Like he's so smart that he almost does like doesn't know what to do with it almost, you know?
00:19:27
Speaker
And he's a hard worker and he wants to like he wants to impress. He loves the positive feedback, you know, as most people do. So he's going to make someone a very good employee someday.
00:19:39
Speaker
But that the problem with all that is, you know, he doesn't like being on camera. He's not going to want to work in an office nine to five every day. He's going to want some of the support and the accommodations that he should be given. And some of these accommodations are great for everybody, let's be honest. But especially for newer divergent individuals. And I think there's just a stigma out there still.
00:20:02
Speaker
As much awareness as there is and as you know as many podcasts as there are and organizations that are helping, there's still a huge stigma
Embracing Neurodiversity and Self-Awareness
00:20:11
Speaker
out there. you know I've i ah been around enough executives and there's not enough empathy from the top.
00:20:17
Speaker
and you lead from the top, a company can only lead from the top. If there's no empathy at the top, it It won't trickle down. I think it also depends to to answer ah your question, Victoria, is like it depends on what your professional goals are, too.
00:20:31
Speaker
um If you're in a place where you desperately need a job, you're unemployed, you've been laid off, whatever the situation is. Yeah, I think I would 100% do what Patty said. i think the other side of the the coin is if and this almost ties perfectly into what you were talking about, Luke being like a great employee one day. is if you remove the mask from the very get-go and the organization loves you for it, that's probably going to be a match made in heaven. Like that is probably the organization, the candidate, we'll be the happiest at, we'll stay the longest at, because to what we were talking about at the beginning, you don't have to mask all day.
00:21:14
Speaker
And then you're not as exhausted at the end of the day. You're not um dreading waking up and logging in in the morning. So I think it depends on the scenario. It's easier to look for a job when you don't need a job, I guess. I know we talked a lot about the morning, and i totally understand that. For me, I call it, I need to have a slow morning just today, knowing, like, this is fun for us, right? Like, we want to do this. We're here. you know, this isn't, this wasn't a meeting, but I had so much anxiety about just really getting on camera and talking. i was up at...
00:21:46
Speaker
5.45 watching some documentary about Shakespeare and then I went to the Ming Dynasty and just, you know, sitting there palms sweating, armpits sweating, you know, just like thinking and and almost dreading this moment just because I feel like even though this is a space where we're safe and it's a place where we come for conversation, the masking for me never stops.
00:22:08
Speaker
What are ways that you can kind of that ah counter counteract that help, you know, kind of come back ground yourself? It's been a lot easier for me since I work for myself now. But even with working for myself at the beginning of this, you know, I was still masking and I was not only masking, but then feeling guilty when I wasn't masking, you know? So like, again, the mornings, a horrible time for me.
00:22:31
Speaker
So I didn't really have to do those hard mornings anymore because I wasn't working for anybody else. I was working for myself. So I could give myself the grace and the leniency. I could even sleep in a little bit more. The other thing too is people don't realize so some of us take medicine and I need to wait for my medicine, my Vyvanse to kick in.
00:22:47
Speaker
I'm sorry. You know, i probably wouldn't have said that publicly even a year ago. But that's the truth is that I need that Vyvanse not just to concentrate. for everything um and especially emotional regularity and people don't understand that because what happens is it's a cycle if I don't take the byvant it's not just I can't concentrate it's I can't function really and that turns into then I get on myself oh why can't you do this why can't you do that you know and then it's self-deprecation and then turns into depression. I wish people would understand that I'm not just popping a pill so I can get more work done.
00:23:23
Speaker
It's truly not that. But that's been something I've learned too, is that, you know, my Vyvanse also helps with just regulating my emotions because emotions are so tied into ADHD and all of it, you know, all of neurodivergency. But specifically for me, it's tied into my ADHD. So where If I'm not functioning well, I self-deprecate and I start questioning why am I not normal?
00:23:45
Speaker
Why can't I just be like other people? I hate when people say everybody's a little your d h d No, they're not. They're really not. And until you really learn what ADHD actually is, i hate that it's called ADHD because immediately people just think you're hyper.
00:23:59
Speaker
Like I said earlier, and you're running around and you know, like my oldest. You definitely had that. But, you know, for us women, like I said, it's usually the hypernesses in our brains. My brain never stops.
00:24:12
Speaker
Never stops. It never stops, you know? i used to describe it when I was younger as, like, I would like try to explain to my mom what was going on and be like, it is so loud in there. It's loud and I'm talking so fast and I cannot slow myself down. Right, right. And that inner critic is so, so so loud so, so loud.
00:24:32
Speaker
But I think as time goes on, and also I'll be honest, turning 50 is very liberating too, where I'm just like, I don't care. you know, take me with all my faults or don't take me. But it's easy for me to say this at the at the stage I am in my life right now, Victoria, you know, where I do work for myself, where I am 50, and as a 50-year-old woman,
00:24:53
Speaker
You just don't care as much. You really don't. It's great. It really is great get in here and be like, take me or leave me, you know? yeah But I think it's just, it's progress. And I really hope, you know, like with other areas of my life that I, you know, I'm very much into female empowerment, you know, and and those sorts of things and making sure like women succeed way before 50.
00:25:13
Speaker
women realize way before 50 that you, you know, you can do it and you have the power and don't let anyone stop you. Same with, you know, neurodiversions. We can do this.
00:25:25
Speaker
You know, we just, for so long, people just don't bet on us, you know, and that's why we mask. It might look different. You might have to support a little bit different. You know, I know what my, fortunately I'm remote employee, but I do have my accommodations for work if, if I need them. And, you know, one of them is you know, a quiet space because our office has open seating and the few times I've been there, it's super distracting and you know, I can't focus on anything, even with headphones on, even with my my loop earplugs, which tune out some background noise. Like it's still super distracting. Everybody's standing up, moving around. That guy has a bright shirt. That guy's yelling, I think, for some reason. There's all this different stuff. And it's like, so one of my accommodations is I need a ah quiet space to work from. And like, that's for me, but the open seating doesn't work for everybody.
00:26:16
Speaker
Likewise, a quiet space all by yourself doesn't work for everybody. So I think like spending the extra time, putting the effort, extra effort. And I think this is one of the things that just,
00:26:27
Speaker
There's any a younger people here, especially, or or maybe executives listening to this is like, if you want to be a good leader, take that extra time, spend that extra time, learn about your team because yes, it's extra time. We're all working a lot of hours. I get it.
00:26:43
Speaker
But I think it's one of those things that is totally
Improving Team Dynamics Through Understanding
00:26:47
Speaker
worth it. If you can spend the time and learn what makes your team tick. Yes, you're spending a little bit more time upfront. You're going to get some really good results from them.
00:26:57
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, the ah ROI on knowing your team is huge, you know, because there might be things you're doing that you're really you're hurting the team by not finding out more, you know, or, you know, one example I use, it goes back to my kids, like when my oldest who has ADHD, when he was younger, one teacher, you know, try withhold recess from him as a punishment.
00:27:21
Speaker
Listen, I get why she was punishing him, but what I told her was, you're punishing yourself. He needs to get out and run. Like taking recess away from Jake is the worst thing for the entire classroom.
00:27:33
Speaker
He needs to be out there running. And that little change, she she didn't even think of it. That's the other thing, you know, when teachers aren't aware, teachers need awareness too, but more teachers are aware than employers. But that one little change made such a difference for her because she's like, you're right, the afternoons are going much better because he's let out some of that energy.
00:27:50
Speaker
So sometimes the same thing in a workplace. Someone might have to get up and take a walk two or three times a day. It doesn't mean that they're lazy. It doesn't mean they're trying not to work. If the work's getting done, honestly, what do you care how they're doing it?
00:28:03
Speaker
If the work isn't getting done, that's a conversation to be had, too. But if the work's getting done, why should we care but about anybody's accommodations? If you feel the need to do something a little bit different than what you see with your peers, just ask. I think similar to to what you did with asking about, you know, can we not talk at 7 or 7.30 in the morning? Similarly, just ask. I think there will be a lot of instances where supervisors, managers will give a chance and be like, okay,
00:28:32
Speaker
Let's see. and it's to your point, the results that that speak. And if you do things a little bit different, you know, there might be some hesitation, there might be some questions up front. It's not necessarily always from a bad place. Sometimes it is admittedly, but sometimes it's just that person trying to understand Patty, I would like to redirect back to what we were talking
Early Autism Signs and Diagnosis
00:28:55
Speaker
about earlier. You had mentioned neurodivergency, how it can be a lonely, it can be a lonely place. Being unique can be lonely, right? Being a parent can be lonely. Sometimes I describe it as a island of one, village of none. Yeah.
00:29:11
Speaker
So I, with with that, you know, and parenting, i think that out there right now, maybe people listening, myself included, there's a lot to of but noise going on around autism and neurodivergency. And I bet there are a lot of parents questioning out there whether their son is three years old like mine 18-year-old Luke.
00:29:36
Speaker
like lo where Where to begin? you know, if they're if they're sitting there, they're questioning things, where to where to start if you can kind of take us back through your experience? Luke was in preschool and really like his teachers, he was at a small church school, so we were lucky that his teachers could talk to us candidly. They started picking up well what we were thinking was maybe OCD tendencies.
00:29:58
Speaker
You know, he would, he knew the numbers at four. He knew every child's like number, you know, cubby number and then he would create he also knew how to write numbers he was when i tell you genius he's always been so smart he would write the numbers and then he would line them up at four you know so it was like but still i know i didn't know anything about autism or at the time really when he got diagnosed they diagnosed him with asperger's which they don't you know they've changed it all to asd now but at the time i didn't know anything about it You know, so we thought maybe a little OCD something. We took him to the doctor and sure enough, they diagnosed him with Asperger's. And from that moment on, you know, it was just a matter of diving into researching. After his diagnosis, he went to a specialist with Florida Hospital for the longest time. He was on medication ah that didn't really, the medication for Luke really didn't do anything, to be honest. So we took him off the medication. Just...
00:30:54
Speaker
awareness and then like I said starting to teach his teachers you know he we was at one elementary school in Orlando was wonderful when we moved to Tampa I can't say the same thing about the elementary school he went to here it felt like nobody knew how to deal with with his challenges they weren't very sympathetic or empathetic at all from there that's where we decided for middle school and on he's going to go to a private school that it has neurodivergent children, that the teachers are trained. So we did that and that you know that's been a world of help. so So again, it depends on the school, it depends on the teachers, it depends on the teachers that wanna help. And it depends on the parents. If I have any advice for parents that don't have neurodivergent children is,
00:31:36
Speaker
Don't exclude them. Don't exclude them. Because, like, again, I could cry. Luke got excluded from one party where then he found out and he was still in elementary school and he broke his heart and he couldn't, look, I almost can't talk about it.
00:31:50
Speaker
I'm gonna start crying now. He couldn't understand why, you know? And I just finally was like, listen, Luke, everybody, you know, maybe they didn't, you know, I made excuses. He was too little to be like, and the parents are assholes.
00:32:02
Speaker
But I just, that stuck with me forever where like, if you're going to pass out invitations in a classroom, don't exclude kids because you know what, already the kids are cruel. You know, they're not being taught.
00:32:14
Speaker
They're really not, you know? And I think the parents' help like teaching and the awareness needs to come at home too because then they'll know how to interact with children that may seem different or may seem weird. I hate that word, but I'm just i'm saying at that age, that's what other kids are perceiving. I just, you know, I figured out, like, I had to find, you know, mom groups that understood this. Mom groups that knew that when Luke was off by himself, like, one friend told me, but is he happy? Because I was always saying, feeling bad, because I'm like, but he's, you know, why won't he play with the other kids? And, you know, and she's like, but look at him. He's happy, right? And I'm like, oh.
00:32:49
Speaker
He's smiling, yeah. And she's like, if he's happy, we don't have to understand it. And that changed my perception. So surrounding yourself, Victoria, with people and other parents that get it, that support not only your children, but support you, is huge.
00:33:03
Speaker
absolutely love this. I feel like as a parent myself, if I see a shift in my son's, we'll say, behavior just demeanor, i don't automatically think what is wrong
Parenting Neurodivergent Children and Self-Reflection
00:33:14
Speaker
with him? I think, what's going on with me? You know, look to the look to the parents. I think Ice Cube said it best himself, check yourself before you wreck yourself.
00:33:23
Speaker
You know what mean? Like, i if there is something if there is something going on with my son, he's he's three, he's a child, I have to, all right all right, what's going on with me?
00:33:33
Speaker
You know, what is going on with me and that self, you know, looking looking to the self for that. And I think that through that, I have come to such a place of discovery and and peace within me. um You know, I learn. It's so i I love that you recognize like, you know, without without knowing um your husband or really even before having this conversation with you, i was I was super excited because I was like, this is that an intelligent.
00:33:57
Speaker
badass lady and I'm so ready to meet her. But I truly believe you, you know, and I don't think it's a parent's bias when you when you talk about how smart Luke is and the wonder of, you know, that that it' it's an amazing thing. And i I think as parents, we can only hope for that, that are that our children will outshine us, will be smarter than us. Like, that's what i that's what I strive for, you know, and I don't tell them this, but I think it a lot. I look at them like, you like right now I'm giving you a lot of guidance, buddy, but one day you're going to be so much smarter than me, you know? And like, I think that, and I want that.
00:34:31
Speaker
I want that for him and for me. And he'll have that because of your awareness, you know, and because you're advocating for him. And unfortunately, my father-in-law, I have zero doubt that he had, he was autistic.
00:34:44
Speaker
Zero doubt. Same thing, a genius. Like he was ah an ER r doctor. He would be mad if every time he had to take his boards, hed he wouldn't score a perfect score, you know? So when I talk, when I say smart, but he was never diagnosed.
00:34:57
Speaker
You know, he was never diagnosed. They used to think that back then it it was a mental thing. They were put locked away. You know, neurodiversion wasn't a thing that people even thought of.
00:35:07
Speaker
But here we are now where, you know, if Luke has children or, you know, I have grandchildren with my other son, if any future children have autism or ADHD, then my boys, I know that they've been trained up.
00:35:20
Speaker
to spot it and to deal with it and to be empathetic about it and to the other thing Victoria that I didn't say before was also understanding when your child's had enough. I can't tell you the number of vacations unfortunately when the boys were younger that just and mainly me tried to force even though the doctors would tell me vacations and outings are never going to look typical for you and you're gonna have to just accept that you know but I would try to force it and be like no we're gonna have this happy time and it's gonna be okay. Undoubtedly, almost every time there'd be a meltdown, there'd be something because Luke and Jake, but since we're focusing on Luke, he'd had enough.
00:35:56
Speaker
He'd had enough, you know? Like, he can't spend the whole day at a theme park like my oldest aunt, you know? So we started realizing that and saying, okay, we're gonna take Luke back to the hotel and one of us will take him, let him rest, let him go to the pool, let him do whatever. but It doesn't all have to look the same. And that was a really hard one for me.
00:36:12
Speaker
My husband would tell me and I'd be like, no, but I'm just gonna keep trying, you know? Because I wanted it to look normal, but unfortunately it it never was and never has.
00:36:23
Speaker
To the parents of children that have maybe neurodivergent children in their classes or whatever, i just want to say those neurodivergent children, I'm not saying anything against neurotypical children or neurotypical people.
00:36:40
Speaker
But neurodivergent children or adults will be some of the best friends that anybody can ever have. And, you know, as an adult, I have a group of friends that neurodivergent, diagnosed or not. And we would, if if one of them called right now and said, Sean, something happened.
00:37:03
Speaker
I need you. Like, I would end this podcast. Yeah. but I would leave. I'm in the middle of nowhere in New York. i don't even know where the closest airport is. i would find it. i would buy my ticket. I would be on a plane over to them right now. And I feel the same for most of that group would do the same for me. And like, yes, we might be a little quirky sometimes.
00:37:23
Speaker
We might not say exactly the same thing as all the other people. But like... we will be some of the best friends you can have similar to what we were talking about the workplace. If you give us a chance, work with us, will be some of the best employees. We will stay with you forever. We will deliver the best quality work. We will be there to, you know, not just professionally, but like if you need something personally, we may not always know how to react to it or know exactly what to say because emotions are hard, but we will try ah genuinely.
00:37:57
Speaker
It's such a great point you brought up because I think there's such a big misconception about, you know, autistic kids, adults, individuals not having empathy. And it it's so wrong. Like, Luke completely changed how I think about that because he's actually one of the most empathetic people that
Misconceptions About Empathy in Neurodivergent Individuals
00:38:15
Speaker
I know. Like he really feels things so deeply for others, sometimes more than anyone around him, really. Like I say out of the four of us again, he's the smartest and probably most empathetic. But what I've learned from him is like empathy doesn't always show up the way like society thinks it's going to show up. You know, he doesn't lack empathy. He has so much sometimes that I think it overwhelms him.
00:38:36
Speaker
I think something common is that like neurodivergent, to for I'm just going to speak to myself. I'm very direct, but I've been told for a long time I carry the weight of the world on my shoulders, right? But I don't, I don't cherry, I'm not going to cherry pick sugar coat, like let's get to the point I'm upset. So I think that sometimes that comes off as brash and and not caring, but no, it's like actually like I care so much. I got to get it out there.
00:39:01
Speaker
I gotta get this done. gotta help. I have to do it, like, ride or die. i am there, you know? And to a fault, and that sometimes backfires in my face. And, you know, in others. To fault.
00:39:16
Speaker
Like you said, because I've had to also tell Luke, you know, watch yourself, because like me, I'm like you, Victoria, and I... What you see is what you get. but I don't do fake and, you know, I'm not gonna do fake. So if I'm genuinely caring about you or have empathy for you, it is real.
00:39:32
Speaker
And what happens in my life, and this is something I am learning, is that people aren't gonna always give that back to me. it and they have it, you know? And that's been a really hard lesson for me because, again, it's very limited. i don't give my caring and my empathy to everybody, so when I'm giving it to you, I always expect it back because I just think are it's, you know, if I'm naturally like that, everyone else is, but they're not.
00:39:57
Speaker
So I'm now late-life learning, and I've said this to Luke because it's hard, you know, for him to distinguish what's real and not real. He's so real and cut and dry. Everything's black and white, you know?
00:40:09
Speaker
Good or bad, he he's gonna tell you. Sometimes I'm like, does this outfit look good? Because I know he will tell me the truth. He will be like, well, I don't wanna hurt your feelings, mom, but no. You know what i mean? And I'm like, you didn't hurt my feelings, thank you. and empathy is a really interesting thing with neurodivergent folks because, and and you touched on, i think all of it, Patty, but just to to add on is like neurodivergent folks are empathetic to a fault and it's genuine.
00:40:41
Speaker
We talked about school and how the best thing, like the what when Luke made that transition into a private school and the accommodations there. So I want to talk about when people are in more rural areas where there's not a private school within a distance from them, or if they do not have access to private schools. What advice would you have for those people to advocate for their children in terms of who's going to be their first line of defense in terms of resources. And I know that's going to vary state to state, but just where do they start?
00:41:12
Speaker
So definitely as a parent, try to get, you know, depending on the state, a 504 plan or an, you know, an IEP, whatever it is that your state has, you know, get that into place first and foremost.
00:41:24
Speaker
Some schools will follow it to a T, some may or may not, but it's there. So you can always refer back to it and you can always point out to the school, it's there, you know, when you do need to follow it. So I would start there. i would, you know, definitely talk to the teachers. Like I said, you know, make sure your teachers know your child, know that punishing them by taking recess away, not good. They have to regulate, they have to focus, they have to reset. Talking to the teachers about allowing some sensory breaks Quiet time for your kid.
00:41:52
Speaker
You know, they get overstimulated. A simple little, here's a book, go sit in the corner for a little bit. and Use multiple ways of teaching so Luke didn't do good with homework. It wasn't a lazy thing. It wasn't even a lazy parenting thing.
00:42:04
Speaker
Maybe a little bunch. It wasn't like a Luke lazy thing. It was that ah going back to that Coke
Advocating for Neurodivergent Children in Schools
00:42:10
Speaker
bottle theory. It was that by the time Luke got home from school, he had enough.
00:42:15
Speaker
He just couldn't do anymore. So part of his 504 plan was he's not going to do homework. He was smart enough. He didn't need the homework. His grades, he's always gotten in straight A's. So make sure that whatever your plan is for your child, it's meeting your child's support, not just a general Don't let the teacher set the plan.
00:42:34
Speaker
Talk to your doctor. You know, like when we did our 504 plan and our IEP, I think we've had both. we took it to the doctor and we help had the doctor help us you know write it out so that we weren't leaving it up to the school administration to do it because they don't know your child.
00:42:50
Speaker
And then again, you know I just think parents, you know parent like the parent advocacy and also just the parent support. And also I tried as much, even being a working parent, I tried, or my husband would be there you know where there were parties or field trips or stuff like that, where you can also be there for your child and support them through that because Sitting in a classroom and a field trip are two completely different things. And like I said, Luke had had a lot of sensory overload. So a field trip for him wasn't always fun.
00:43:19
Speaker
And again, if you see a child having a meltdown, don't assume, you know, they're spoiled or they're misbehaving. I mean, he's taught me, you know, that too, that meltdowns aren't weaknesses, they're communication, they're communication for a neurodivergent child. but You know, meltdown like- It's their way of saying help. Help, I've hit my limb.
00:43:37
Speaker
Help, yeah. It doesn't mean they lack strength. It means they've been strong for too long. That's what it means, you know? And they're crying out for help. And when they're little, they don't understand that they're different. They don't know they're different. So they just know that their body and their brains are telling them, I'm done.
00:43:54
Speaker
help. And I love that you've brought in the Coke bottle analogy to that, because I think that is such a great visual way to explain and for people to really understand how it feels like. And I think something that we should all be aware of, whether we're neurotypical, neurodivergent, if we have someone especially neurodivergent and autistic in our life, to consider that and think about what the day has been, because I know sometimes I'll speak for myself personally. i' I've masked all day, I've put on all day. And then when it comes to the time where I'm with my family you know my family, my son and my husband, the two people I love the most in this world, I have nothing left.
00:44:28
Speaker
I have nothing left for you. And so I think that you know is the same for me. I noticed that about Aiden, you know, when we when I pick him up, but very I'm also very fortunate. see Right now, he goes to a church preschool, so it's a small community. We get to, you know, really you know hear about what's going on, talk to the parents. But I can tell for those first couple hours when he gets home,
00:44:51
Speaker
he's done, he's spent, he's overstimulated, he needs to decompress. And so I think that if we all just like keep that awareness on the forefront, you know, cause there's a, I feel like there's a saying that it's like, you know, you're always the worst to the ones you love or something that. Well, that's like a really shitty thing, you know what mean? And that's, that's not true. know, it's just not true. And it's not like, sometimes it is true, unfortunately. Right, okay. All right, all right, I love it. Yeah, so.
00:45:14
Speaker
yeah why We don't want it to be true though. That's the thing. And like, I feel, I genuinely feel bad for my wife sometimes because it goes, it's then the cycle where we're beating ourselves up for it because yes we, I just masked all day long. I don't have it in the evening. So when my wife is like, can we go out to dinner?
00:45:37
Speaker
And it's a place that might have like a 35 minute wait or something like that. Like, yeah I'm sorry. can't, I just can't. I know you want to. I can't. And then even if she's like, okay, well, I thought it was you know at least worth asking. Oh, well, she just said it's worth asking. Like the way she said that almost sounded like she was disappointed.
00:45:59
Speaker
Now I disappointed her. Maybe I should suck it up and just be mad. But okay, then you know there's that whole spoon analogy. If I'm already out of spoons at that point and I'm going into the deficit, then it's not going to be good when I get home. You certainly don't want to poke her with a fork.
00:46:15
Speaker
it's It's bad. And it's just, but then i I might poke myself because then I'm stimming and because, you know, then it turns into the whole like, then I look like a disruptive adult sitting there, know, having my tantrum. People need to respect other people's needs and not get offended by everything.
00:46:35
Speaker
Okay. Because chances are they're not trying to offend you. They never are. It's what they need. You're the one offending by not respecting them. And that applies neurodivergent, neurotypical. That's another one of those things. And I get it.
00:46:49
Speaker
Sometimes it will be hard. Sometimes it won't be natural. Sometimes all you can do is try. But at least for neurodivergent folks, the neurodivergent folks will notice that you're at least trying to respect it, even if it's not flawless. I like when I say it's a lonely world, are it is a lonely world.
00:47:10
Speaker
And I do sometimes feel like I'm on an island and I'm grateful that I have my husband that understands it too and understands it from also, because he understands me, you know, because again, it's a lonely world sometimes having ADHD and it's a much more complex, I don't know, diagnosis, however you want to say, I don't find it a disability, but it's much more complex than people realize.
00:47:32
Speaker
And it affects much more of a person's life and, you know, your relationships. I'm always interrupting, you know? And he, like, finally, I'm like, well, you know, you know, because you do it too, first of all.
00:47:45
Speaker
And amazing. thing you know and We're always like, we're gonna start recording each other. but like, it's nice to have awareness also because without your own self-awareness, you can't also teach people to accept you.
00:47:59
Speaker
If so many people are masking, if everyone's putting on that you know corporate face, Let's go back to LinkedIn. Everybody's putting them on that corporate face. Like then everybody else is going to be putting on that corporate face and more people are going to be putting on that corporate face. And those folks that just don't feel comfortable are going to mask more and more and more. And I think like, you know, I remember the first when I posted my autism diagnosis on LinkedIn, like I was scared because like my network was not...
00:48:31
Speaker
at least at face value, was not that. And then I did it and I'm like, I have connected with some of the most genuine, nice, caring people that like, no offense to a lot of folks on LinkedIn, I didn't know existed on LinkedIn.
00:48:48
Speaker
I do see a trend on LinkedIn I think in various ways people are starting to be a little more real and start putting themselves and their families and their mental health and physical health as priorities.
00:49:02
Speaker
I see a slight trend going that way and I'm really hoping it continues because if we don't know advocate for ourselves, no one's gonna advocate for us, you know? And then that's for everybody across the board. Let me close out this episode of Conversations for Change ah by saying, Patty, thank you. Thank you.
00:49:20
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you so much for for being here. If anybody listening or watching this podcast would like to connect with Patty, and we will put the link to her LinkedIn in the description. Patty is a fractional general counsel, so you can learn a little bit about that on her LinkedIn. Patty was recently a podcast guest on the Legal Disrupt So she has a clip of that on her page talking about AI in the legal space. And as an AI fan, I think that's super cool. I did listen to that clip. And she has a lot of other great stuff, talks about Luke, lot of great stuff. on there. So please connect with Patty on LinkedIn. As always, don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter nurturingtomorrow.org.
00:50:05
Speaker
Subscribe to the podcast on all your favorite podcast platforms, YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and probably a bunch of others that I'm unaware of because I'm getting to the boomer stage of my life. So thank you for listening to today's podcast episode, and we look forward connecting with you all on the next one.