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Extended Clip - Euro 2024 The Worst Euros Ever: Has Football Declined Over Last 20 Years? (Ep. 436)
1.4k Plays10 months ago
After an underwhelming EURO 2024 final which saw Spain beat England 2-1, Nima Tavallaey and Carlo Garganese discuss, debate and analyze if the quality of players in football has declined last 20 years.
This is an extended clip from this weeks free Monday episode of The Italian Football Podcast which is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and Google podcasts.
To listen to this & all other full episodes of The Italian Football Podcast (with no ads), go to Patreon.com/TIFP OR now also available on Spotify to become a Patron for only $2.99 USD per month (excluding VAT).
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Transcript
Is Euro 2024 the worst quality tournament?
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Italian football podcast. That brings us on nicely to something that that that we want that I want to discuss in in in depth here. um see I put out a tweet about a week 10 days ago, which went completely viral. It got about six million views. I'll read out the tweet. and What I wrote was, Euro 2024 is the worst quality euros or world cup in my lifetime. All the big teams, except Spain and Germany, have been unwatchable. Where are the superstars, the attackers, the dribblers, the patterns of play? Football has declined massively the last 20 years. Players, brackets, robots, are fitter, that's it. Now, this sparked numerous debates elsewhere and the replies to my tweet.
00:00:51
Speaker
almost kind of a little bit surprisingly for for me, um almost unanimously, everyone was in agreement with me. Honestly, there was very, very few people who actually responded and said, no, football hasn't declined, football is is better, or football is is the same as it was ah in the past. Pretty much everyone was in agreement that that football, if not necessarily that this is the worst euros, that that but that football has really really the quality and we're talking about the quality of football here we're not talking about you know whether you enjoy it or the entertainment so much because that's more subjective we're talking about the quality the quality of the teams the quality of the players the depth of of of of ah you know certainly among more among the big teams i i would say so what i want to do now name is i want us to to to answer this question and debate it really has the quality of football declined as we are now uh compared to let's say
00:01:48
Speaker
the 2000s, the 1990s, the 1980s, let's say those decades ah you know from modern times.
The rise of system players in football
00:01:55
Speaker
So what I'm going to do is what we usually do is we're we're going to break it down into system some so some subheadings, let's say, and go through each area and and and try and answer the question. So first of all, I want to look at are there less superstars today and like less less world-class players today compared to 30 years ago um what do you what do you what do you say to that newer look superstars there's there's always going to be stars of football for me it's about technical ability
00:02:28
Speaker
I think there's it's undisputable. It cannot be disputed. it's There's no discussion. But the level of technical the the overall level of technical skill has declined dramatically the last two decades. I don't think there's any debate about that. um is it is Football has become like ice hockey. I've seen this in other sports, in ice hockey as well. The technical players, the skilled players have all pretty much disappeared as the NHL, which is the you know juggernaut of ice hockey, has decided they want system players. They want robots that can follow a system. And that's exactly what's happened to football. it's It's all system players, specific players and specific roles. And you see it all over Europe.
00:03:14
Speaker
Denzel Dumfries would not even have played in the championship 20 years ago. Look at the career he has. Thought you'd bring it back. No, no, but like it's it's a fantastic example. he He has won so many trophies. This guy would never even win, wouldn't even win a Dutch Cup. Robotic athletes. Yeah, robotic athletes. They all are like that. And and and it's, it's you know you know, I think Jue Belling is a fantastic talent. I think he's technically very skilled. But he would not have been able, like technically, he wouldn't have been anything 20 years ago, you know, and he's one of the biggest stars in the world right now. And I think that on an individual technical level, I don't think that's even a debate. No. You know, I honestly don't even think there's a there's a debate. No.
Where have all the superstars gone?
00:03:57
Speaker
and And the reason for that is and we've spoken about this many times on the part that that kind of a player, the number 10, the Fantazista, it there's no room for it in Italian, in not in world football at all, unless
00:04:09
Speaker
It's a number 10 role that ah develop you know evolves and becomes also that becomes, yes, you you can have fantastic skill and creativity and vision, but you also have to be a good presser, you have to have play with high intensity and so on and so forth. It's not just number 10s though, because i mean if we if we if i look at I go back 20, when between twenty to thirty years ago just read out but go for the major the major nations and look at some of the superstars names right italy totti del piero bad show the airy and then if you want to look at superstar defenders that we had as well maldini can of our own esta perform as a superstar goli brazil romario donaldo rivaldo.
00:04:48
Speaker
Caffouro, Beto Carlos, Ronaldinho, Kakรก, Argentina, Battistuta, Raquelima, Veron, Ortega, Tevez, Redondo, you know France, Henri, Zidane, Papรกn, Vieira, Cantona, Ribery, Holland, Birkamp, Cidorff, Davids, Clyver, Overmars, Van Nistelroy, and if you want to go back to the early 90s, Milan, you know, Rykard, Gulli, Van Basten. Yeah, Maradona Farge, if we want to go back a little bit further, Portugal, you know Figo, Ruicosta, Deco, Paolo Fultre, the young Cristiano Ronaldo, not the old one now, Germany, you know Klinsman, Batheus, Bremme, Vola, Zama, Mola, Cola, Valac.
00:05:26
Speaker
you know, Croatia, Suka, Bob-Bam, Proลผeลski, Serbia, Savicevic, Stojkovic, Miatovic, Miatovic. I mean, um just just one after the other after the other. i feel Now, if you look at those same big nations I've gone through and and you tell me, pick up your superstar. Who's your superstar for Italy right now? Well, there isn't one. Who's your superstar from Brazil? isn' Maybe Vinny Jr. That's it. That's your only superstar. Argentina. Who's your superstar from Argentina? Messi, who's 36 years old. France. Mbappe, Mbappe maybe. That's their one superstar from France. Holland, they don't have a superstar. Portugal, I mean, they do have some quality, but I don't know if they've got a world-beating superstar. Germany, where's their superstar? Maybe Museala could maybe be one. Croatia, Serbia, where are their superstars? So, you know,
00:06:14
Speaker
the' the superstar names, that they're they're they're just not there. There's no one ah so few players that you would actually describe as a superstar, whether they are a number 10, like you said, or whether they're a winger, or whether they're a midfielder, or whether they're even you know like a superstar defender, like a Maldini or a superstar goalkeeper like a Buffon. There isn't superstars in the game. And in addition to that, Nima, where are the attackers now?
Has modern football lost its magic?
00:06:41
Speaker
this was the worst this is this I mean you can we can debate over whether this was the worst tournament in history for me there's no debate at all that this is the worst tournament in the history for for attackers and strikers yeah
00:06:53
Speaker
yeah there's no doubt about that there there's absolutely no doubt about that um and this is the result of what again this kind of robotic false nine and you have to be able to do this but and the other and yeah pep yeah you know and and and it's you know everyone has wanted to follow suit and and i think that has cost i mean look at it you got hawland Mbappe is not really a number nine. Osseman, you had Lukaku for two years. Kane, who else have you got? I mean, this is nothing there. Well, the top score in the Euro scored three goals. I mean, does that not tell you everything you need to know? That there is no, like I said, the the the individual skill has gone down. decline The decline has been off a cliff. It's been off the Grand Canyon.
00:07:42
Speaker
Um, and it's been, it's been really, really sad to see. Um, I think, you know, I, but we seen that trend at club level too. It's not just international football. I, I've been saying it for a couple of years now that club level now they're better trained. the they're better, they're they're you know, the the medical the the medical advances are better than ever before. You know, this is a whole sports science that at a level that's never been... They're fitter. They're fitter, they're better trained. Psychology has developed really well. All of that. Planning as well. Preparing preparing against opponents, what they're going to do, knowing what they're going to do. yeah the Tactical astuteness has improved by everyone. Overall has been improved. But the skill is lower than at any point in my lifetime.
00:08:34
Speaker
I really believe that. I think on an individual level. like yeah There's no individual difference makers now. We've killed them. yeah and i mean What we're saying is, is you know what we're saying, Bielza says, Ronaldinho says, Caffu says, all of them say that, yeah essentially. that there are no so like your kid The football's been killed. There are no individual, everyone is, ah you know, they're system players, they're the robots that know how to how to read the game and interpret instructions and and run, you know, movements between the lines and and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the dribblers as well, like where are the dribblers? I mean, that's what for me, that's why I was so happy that Spain won the Euros because Spain are probably the exception. They actually have two wingers that dribble and take on their players and try and eliminate their men.
00:09:19
Speaker
But how many, how many teams have these players now? Not just international football, even a club football, you know, where are the players that beat their man, that dribble past their man? Again, in the past, you know, some of those players that I mentioned, you know, Badcio, Del Piero, Ronaldo, the Brazilian Ronaldo, Overmars, Figo, Futre, Savicovic, I mean, these players, they would take on their men, they would beat them, you know, who, no one takes on the goalkeeper anymore. This, this drives me mad. You know, you get a one on one with the goalkeeper nowadays. No one takes on the goalkeeper ever. Whoever takes on the goalkeeper, but you know, in again, in the past, the best players in the world would dribble past the goalkeeper. Badjo, Ronaldo, Carreca. You know, these players would go past the goalkeeper. but I remember when I used to play, if I was one-on-one with the goalkeeper, when I was one-on-one with the goalkeeper,
00:10:05
Speaker
Right. And I'm not comparing myself to any of these players. But but when I was one one with the goalkeeper, I would almost feel like if I didn't try and take on the goalkeeper, that made me a lesser player. That was my that was my thinking because because it was kind of thought that you know the best players they take on the goalkeeper. Nowadays, no one even thinks to dribble to dribble past the keeper. They all do the same thing. they They think they slide it past the keeper or they or they try and think it over him. You know, that's all they do. And it's just like, Where is the skill? Where is the magic, the creativity? You know, no one does through balls anymore. No one does chicken through balls anymore. No, you know, those are extinct from the game. No one, no one chips or lobs the goalkeeper anymore. When do you ever get people from, when I say chips, I mean like chips from outside the area where you, you know, like Totti's Kukai or against the parrutsi, that's against the inter. I can't remember. Yeah. Like that got that, or the one he did against parrutsi, you know, those kinds of goals or Hoddle, Glenn Hoddle once did a famous one against Watford.
00:11:02
Speaker
you know, put that on YouTube. but You don't see that because I know the balls are a big reason for that, you know, the plastic synthetic balls that they don't get up and down like the older, the older balls do. But these kind of pieces of technical beauty, we're talking about quality in the game and beauty in the game, these these things have been removed. and And that's what made football so, so amazing and enjoyable as, as you know, when we were, you know, in the past, because we got these moments of magic in games, and we just don't get them. When things were locked, the ones that took the game by the scruff of the neck and made the difference, dribbled past two, three players, you know created created something out of nothing. yeah um and and and And that's kind of gone missing a lot in football. It's exactly like what's happened in ice hockey. And that's why it's it's just boring. I almost stopped watching ice hockey completely.
00:11:47
Speaker
is it Literally, it's like walking walk walk watching robots skate around. It's not fun. you know the and And that's what's happening with with football as well. And i i think that I hope that this is something that players, that that they and the powers that be in the different federations understand. I think it's all become very nemo. It's all become like you like you're saying about the preparation. It's all become so analytical using analytics, using stats, things like XG, working out the probability of doing this and doing that. Yeah, exactly. So for example, long range shooting, I remember getting actually getting quite excited in the first week of this tournament because we actually got quite a few long range goals. And I was like, wow, we don't see long range goals anymore. And then that all stopped soon after that we stopped getting any long range. I think the Yamaha one in the semi final was, was, but I mean, these are rare exceptions now. But generally, if you if you look over football in the last 10 years, we just don't get long range goals anymore. Like we did in the past. Players are shooting. I mean, where are the free kick experts today?
00:12:49
Speaker
Where are they? Namely, who's a free kick expert in football nowadays that regularly scores regular schoolss free kicks from outside the area? Even the ones that you think are good, like maybe ah a chalanogli or a demato. He's horrible. He used to be good, but he's absolutely dreadful. I know, but those are the ones where that maybe might come to mind, actually look at their stats and how many goals they've scored from free kicks. I mean, it's pathetic. I don't think he's, well, he's scored quite a few chalanogli, but he hasn't done it in the last five
Is club football masking international quality?
00:13:14
Speaker
years. That's what I mean. obviously well Where are the free kick experts today? There's basically none when we were growing up and we had so many, you know, geniuses from free kicks, Mihailovic, Kuman, Del Piero, Pirlo, Gioninho, the Brazilian Gioninho from Leo. Yeah, I mean, and him and Mihailovic from me. I mean, you know, Zico, I mean, where are they? Which of free kicks were magical too? Oh, yeah.
00:13:38
Speaker
I mean, where are they nowadays? I is you no listen i mean, I think the reason for that, Nima, is like we were saying about the the w risk, minute that that they look at the numbers of, and I'm speaking to coaches about this, but they look at the XG, the the probability of scoring a long range goal is so small that they're basically players are told not to shoot for a long range anymore. because because you know That's what I mean. Like everything, that's exactly the point, that thing, you know, youve they've sacrificed Like, you they ba everything, you know, science is good when it's used properly. Here it's an issue of using data to minimize, to be like, okay, well, the probability of scoring there is so low, let's not even do it. Which I think is silly because it removes, it has also removed skill from the game, individual skill, skill and quality.
00:14:26
Speaker
um and And I think it it sucks to joy out of it too, because if you remember what was fun about football, it was the individual skill. Yes, there was system, there were tactics, there were lineups, all of that ah that I loved. And I'm sure many listening did too. But at the end of the day, you still marveled at the artists. you know absolutely and i don't think it necessarily proves more successful anyway i mean i think that and that's also another reason why i'm glad england didn't didn't win it and that spain did win it because that would have been a so ah victory for this type of way of playing football with
00:15:00
Speaker
because that is Southgate. He's completely based on analytics and science and and you know this risk minimization that we've got to do this. And that by playing in this condition is the same for France as well, that playing in this way gives us a better chance of of going all the way. And um yeah, like you said, I mean, there's better science, there's better nutrition, there's better professionalism, um but definitely not better you know better preparation as well. I think one thing that we can say is better is the smaller teams are better. um No no of course look at the level the overall level i think there more more quality football is today overall in total than there were twenty thirty years ago you know i'm but.
00:15:44
Speaker
the technical individual level has dropped. like it's it's it's it's um you know It's two separate things. um there are better The number of good footballers today grossly outweigh the ones that there existed 20 years ago. There's not a big gap between the no the elite and the... and yeah and But the individual skill at the very top has fallen off a cliff of of of the players at the very top, and I think that's a bit... It's a bit sad. But I also think that, you know, it goes in. I think everything goes in cycles, really. And I think that was, you know, because of the fact that international football is the quality is lower.
00:16:25
Speaker
It's only natural that a Deschamps and a Southgate want to risk minimise and say, well, we can actually get to a final. We can win. Do you know what I mean? i agree I agree. I do agree with that. But at the same time, I think two things can be same true at the same time. I do think that it is because I see people saying this a lot. Ah, club football is better than international football and all this. I think that that is partly true, but it's also false because I think that there's an illusion that club football is is better than it is because nowadays in 2024, and it has been the case for the last 10 to 15 years, the biggest clubs, the super clubs, the Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, Juventus, Inter, all the big Premier League clubs now, let's say, PSG, they monopolize all the best players in the world, not just in their teams, but in their squads. And to such an extent,
00:17:18
Speaker
that when you get to the quarterfinals of the say the Champions League you see this it's ah it's amazing the football is incredible you've got all the best players in the world basically playing for these eight teams and the level is very very high because you've got all the best players but actually if you go further down you know further down and you look at the the teams that are you know in the domestic leagues from you know fifth or sixth down into the mid table and down to the relegation teams. These teams are um are much, much weaker um because all the best they don't have any of the best players. Whereas 20, 30, 40 years ago, all the best players in the world were were spread over all teams in all leagues. They weren't condensed within just a small group of players. And that's why international football, for me, is the true litmus test for how strong football really is.
00:18:10
Speaker
And when you look at when you compare the international teams, the level of players for the international teams today to the the same and top international teams from 20, 30, 40 years ago, you then it's then that you realize just how much football has dropped off because you then do the the whole, well, how many of the the Italy team would have got into the Italy team 20 years ago? How many of this Holland team would have got into the Holland team 20 years? And then you suddenly realize, well, actually, not many of them, if anything, get into them. So that's where club football is actually an illusion. It's because all the best players are monopolised by by a you know eight to 10 teams and around Europe youth that everybody thinks, oh, it's amazing. It's only amazing from the Champions of League quarterfinals onwards.
The enduring appeal of international tournaments
00:18:49
Speaker
It's not amazing anywhere else. You know what I mean? So I think that is the that is where we really are. But I think, really look, i I think that's true. i think but But then again,
00:18:59
Speaker
At the end of the day, I don't think it really matters for for the growth of the game at international level because the people who don't care about club football tune in when it's international football, and they will always do that. um We've seen this, whether every time it's a Euros or a Cop America or World Cup or or Asian Cup or whatever, people the the casuals turn in. and then tune in. So I don't and don't see a worry for the interest there, but i do I do have concerns for the interest at club level. I do because it's not, it's like you said, it only gets good from the quarter semi-finals onwards in the Champions League. One or two games, maybe in three games, four games in the Premier League, ah yeah in the entire calendar. Yeah.
00:19:45
Speaker
um and And other than that, it's just a long transport from September to May yeah in between that. And and and that's the and again, and and that's big again and that you know the individual the decline in individual quality accentuates that even more. um And yeah, I mean, you know, we'll see. We'll see for what happens. But for international football, I'm not worried because, you know, you know, I don't watch international football for to watch the best, like, you know, for the quality I watch it because they are the stories. I think the stories are more interesting.
00:20:22
Speaker
the the national stories of each each club, of each player, of each country, ah qualifying for the first time, you know, these these these sagas, you know. Yeah, and it's a festival, isn't it? It's a festival, exactly. It makes everyone happy, people come together, they, you know, from all kind from all walks of life and, you know, they meet up and, and you know, it's it's and it's It's a story. I remember growing up and the thing that I was fascinating. I've learned so much as a kid from collecting these panini sticker books and and learning different names and learning about them different places and clubs and cities and different countries all over the world. And you know, you you you know I fell in love with Uruguay in 1990.
00:20:59
Speaker
I didn't know anything about Uruguay until 1990. Do you know what I mean? like That World Cup Uruguay stole my heart um and and I start you know ah fell in love with them. and and and you know Those stories, that's the kind of thing that I think is beautiful by the World Cup, Copa America, Euros and so on. but but So that will never really disappear. But I do think that um then football needs to start you know don't copy Spain, but but you know return to to to to trying to develop skillful technically skillful players. Allow children to dribble. don't yeah you know There's a balance between only dribbling
00:21:40
Speaker
and never dribbling you know what i mean like you have the decision making you know that doesn't have to be so extreme and because that's the thing it's always all or nothing isn't it it's yeah everything so yeah yeah everyone's so you know bipolar in their decision making it's either this or that it's like no it doesn't need to be like that if there's You know, you can strike a balance of that. And and like what I used to love about Italian football at an international level was exactly that. You had fantastic skillful individual players and you had players and you had the coaches who were the smartest and played with their brains.
00:22:16
Speaker
you know that's what i want a little bit get back to that's what i like that's what i love the balance you know yeah so um you know but but we'll see i mean i i tweeted out yesterday look that your spain won the euros because they were the best team they deservedly wanted to do that about that but i really hope that italy don't start copying them or anyone else i think what's good about this spain team is that they they they weren't the classic spain they did have that direct they had a bit of everything you know like you said that they yeah they do still have that they could still you know dominate possession
The need for diversity in football styles
00:22:44
Speaker
as they did in the final or if they want to but they also have that direct nature with the wingers but they also showed that they were good good defensively ah they improved defensively as the tournament went on and they and they also were strong mentally as well you know they conceded that goal to England and they still came back and they dominated the rest of the game and won the game so you know I think they're In that way, there's maybe more to copy off this Spain than, then like you said, doing all or nothing, as they as as many teams did, you know, when they spain with dominant before, and everybody just tried to copy them, and but these which is partly led to. I'm not going to blame it all on Pep. I know a lot of people see a lot of people say, oh, it's all Pep's fault, but
00:23:23
Speaker
when everybody plays the same way everybody tries and i actually think that that was something that england tried to do yesterday that they just decided look we're not going to try and play out the press in the first time we're just going to hump it long and try and play for the second balls and try and play ah which okay it's it's it's it's awful to watch it's it's like 1980s sunday league football from bedford but it kind of like in a way it kind of was sort of half effective in the first half. off so but and that the lesson The lesson from that is that there are other ways of playing football. you know There are other ways of playing football and it would be nice to see a bit more diversity in football. Different styles, different ide ideologies clashing. That's the beauty of it. I remember Skolari in Euro 2004, when Greece won. Before the final, everyone was moaning about Greece playing defensive football. And Skolari said it best. He said, look, there's no if they play defensive, you know tight football,
00:24:22
Speaker
then it's up to us, the so-called attacking teams to unlock them. yeah But that's only going to happen if develop and emerge from the youth to the seniors the um that have these attributes and qualities to do all this stuff that it seemingly none of them can do anymore. Otherwise, it will just be everyone playing the same way, which is what's happening at the moment. And then you get Spain who are the best at it. Yeah, well well, that's exactly what I mean. And that's another aspect why I didn't want Spain to win. is the last twenty two or three, two two and a half decades, ah across club and country level, 23 finals Spanish teams or national teams have been in and they've won all three. That's That's a dominance that is not healthy for the game. Like, it's fantastic. Let's, you know, praise Spain. Seems almost impossible, that stat.
00:25:12
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's mental and it's like 23 finals, 23 finals won. That's a level of dominance that is just not healthy for the game. And having, you know, in England is a traditionally big country, footballing country with ah with ah with a long history and they you know, have they won the Euros? I think it would have been good for the game, you know, new blood, fresh in the, you know, open the windows a little bit. Do you know what I mean? It's just watching Spain win, now their fourth Euros is just three in the last 16 years. Yeah. It's just. Although it is their, to be fair, it's their first tournament won in 12 years. So. No, but since 2008, they've won three Euros. Oh yeah. There's no doubt about it. It's been a period. It's been a great period, not just for Spanish football, Spanish sport. Yeah.