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Silas Walton - Hermes Collecting With The Founder Of A Collected Man
957 Plays1 year ago
For someone who is the founder of one of the most well known rare, pre-owned, independent, and vintage watch platforms, you would think that all their energy goes towards watches. And while the majority does, founder Silas Walton has an affinity for arguably the most luxurious brand there is, Hermes. The brand history for Hermes dates back to 1837, when they made luxury saddles and harnesses for noblemen, but around the 1950’s they started to create home goods crafted out of silver. These objects were quite utilitarian and ranged from cigarette pots to wine coasters and tastevin’s. While these items are quite rare and extremely difficult to stumble upon, Silas and the team at ACM have made it pretty easy for you to collect as well as they recently started selling them on their website. Don’t worry though, we chat about watches too. It’s my absolute pleasure to present to you, Silas Walton, for Collectors Gene Radio.
A Collected Man - https://www.acollectedman.com/
Collectibles @ A Collected Man - https://www.acollectedman.com/collections/collectables
Photography Article - https://www.acollectedman.com/blogs/journal/better-watch-photography
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Transcript
Introduction to Auctions and Collectors Gene Radio
00:00:00
Speaker
auctions are fun and we're going to be continuing to figure out the best way to deploy them to the benefit of the market and our clients and we're investing as I speak in our own applications and software to be able to really make sure that we have something that's really good that we can build on. What's going on everybody and welcome to Collectors Gene Radio.
00:00:26
Speaker
This is all about diving into the nuances of collecting and ultimately finding out whether or not our guests have what we like to call the collector's gene. If you have the time, please subscribe and leave a review. It truly helps. Thanks a bunch for listening and please enjoy today's guest on collector's gene radio.
Silas Walton's Passion for Hermes
00:00:46
Speaker
For someone who's the founder of one of the most well-known rare, pre-owned, independent, and vintage watch platforms, you would think that all their energy goes towards watches. And while the majority does, founder Silas Walton has an affinity for arguably the most luxurious brand that there is, Hermes.
00:01:06
Speaker
The brand history for Hermes dates back to 1837 when they were making luxury saddles and harnesses for noblemen. But somewhere around the 1950s, they started to craft home goods out of silver. Now these objects were truly quite utilitarian and range from cigarette pots to wine coasters and bottle openers.
00:01:24
Speaker
And while these items are quite rare and extremely difficult to find, Silas and the team at A Collected Man have made it pretty easy for you to collect as well as they recently started selling them on their website. Don't worry though, we chat about watches too. It's my pleasure to present to you Silas Walton for Collectors Gene Radio.
Journey into the Watch Industry
00:01:44
Speaker
Silas, thank you so much for joining me today on Collectors Gene Radio. Pleasure being with you Cameron. Thanks for the invitation.
00:01:51
Speaker
Absolutely. So you're the founder of A Collected Man, and we'll definitely talk all about watches later for sure. But just briefly, you weren't necessarily interested in starting a watch website, right? Rather, you pretty much saw an opportunity to kind of just bring things digital when the pre-owned space was kind of in its infancy.
00:02:10
Speaker
Yeah, that's exactly right. I always describe myself as a sort of accidental watch collector in the sense that much of my passion for watch collecting per se came after I'd been doing this for three, four years. The way I entered into the space or we entered into the space was
00:02:31
Speaker
it was a you know i was i was doing an internship of the business school in a private fund in london the small relatively small one and i was meeting. What is the reason reading impressive business plans and being inspired on a daily basis by all these interesting people with all these interesting ideas you know getting up and
00:02:54
Speaker
changing their lives in a short space of time by virtue of their conviction that they could do something better or they could offer something new to the market. During that time, I was in the process of selling. I needed to sell a couple of watches that I owned that I had paid for in a previous life when I worked in a law firm as a paralegal. That experience
00:03:18
Speaker
Tell me a little bit about the options available to me at the time at a lower level and a sort of more entry level let's say quote unquote, whether it was ebay or whether it was an auction house or whether it was selling to a high street pre-owned boutique and that experience informed my thinking about my own.
00:03:38
Speaker
options and then ultimately made me realize a few things about the market, which at the time felt very underdeveloped, very non-digestore, and relatively unsophisticated, particularly at the higher-end of things. I think the mid-market was already starting to be commoditized and so you had big players like Watchfinder and others in America who were relatively advanced in pushing out the envelope as far as pre-owned retail was concerned.
00:04:06
Speaker
But when it came to the rarest stuff, or the more sensitive stuff, or where there was, you know, less of a market, you know, other than a gentleman like Steve Hallock on the west coast of America, there were very few people interested, for example, in the independent watchmaking space. And there wasn't that much sophistication even on social media, you know, it was still quite a basic space.
Hermes Silver Collecting
00:04:31
Speaker
And so recognizing that there was a
00:04:35
Speaker
lack of attention given to the higher end or niche end of the market, realizing that the market was going increasingly visual and lifestyle orientated, recognizing that things are moving away from the forums and more and more potentially to online sales at a distance, even for secondhand goods, where condition is key, particularly when you're talking about 50, 60, $100,000 or more.
00:05:01
Speaker
All those things drove me to this conclusion that there was an opportunity, even if it would take a while to capture, if you could find this nation and occupy it, you know, at the top end of the space. And so yeah, we, we pushed for a digital first model, social media friendly model, a trust, you know, absolutely kind of like first and foremost,
00:05:23
Speaker
approach, trust-centered kind of business model. And that was eight years ago. And today we're in a market that's changing rapidly and that's highly, you know, much more developed, but it's still, you know, a really exciting space to be in.
00:05:39
Speaker
And you've since grown to love watches. I mean, you collect them. And we'll definitely talk about watches later. Otherwise, I think our listeners will exile me. But I want to start today by chatting about a brand that's really near and dear to you, which you also sell on the site, but mainly collect. And that brand is Hermes. Most people know Hermes for Birkin bags or their infamous blankets and watches, bracelets, even furniture, which some people may not know about.
00:06:07
Speaker
What most people don't know about the brand is that they started out making these luxury saddles and harnesses for noblemen back in, I mean, 1800s maybe. And then in the 50s era, maybe a little bit before that, they were creating goods out of silver, like home goods. But home goods back then were cigarette pots and ashtrays, which you've come to love. Can you tell me how this all kind of started?
00:06:34
Speaker
Yeah, so I definitely have a fondness for and a soft spot for kind of mid-century Almez vintage silver antiques.
00:06:44
Speaker
not just silver, but white metal, typically. I used to spend hours just kind of scrolling through eBay, almost purely out of self entertainment, like looking for something interesting that caught my eye or something different, or like challenging myself to find something, you know, unexpected because, you know, there are so many opportunities out there, not just there, but at auction and elsewhere, to find these kind of like, you know, uncut gems or these, these, you know, these diamonds in the rough.
00:07:14
Speaker
And what i found was you know you look around and look around and look around and then suddenly you know this incredible almez ashtray would pop up silver ashtray that kind of the design was so tasteful and reminded me of so many other things that i liked for example in watchmaking you know some kind of guilloche for example some kind of engine turning pattern.
00:07:37
Speaker
But equally, that perfect combination of subtle beauty in aesthetics mixed with a pretty utilitarian purpose for overriding sensibility. And so the astray, for example, that I mentioned,
00:07:54
Speaker
Imagine just the equivalent of a small, shallow plate or pot, but in this case, you know, made of silver with, you know, engine turn patterns, concentric engine turn, engine turn patterns going all the way around the base and on the side. And then you'd have like two small pieces of kind of like, I don't know how to describe it too, like small cigarettes or cigar rests on either side, so that two people could share this ashtray. And then you'd have this sort of
00:08:23
Speaker
almost like horse riding inspired almost bridal piece of metal that would come out from the side to kind of like inspire or reference the equine theme that kind of went through a lot of vintage silver amends from the period.
00:08:39
Speaker
It's such an attractive classical design. I can see mine now. It's one of those things that once you've got it, you can't imagine ever not having it. Every time you see it, you smile. The same is true for the cigarette pots, which I don't keep cigarettes in, but I keep pieces of gum. I have these wonderful wavy engine turn patterns.
00:09:04
Speaker
And I've always been fond of that equestrian vintage theme with Almez, and so I have what they describe as an equestrian box with a double horse head on top. And I think originally that would have been for cigarettes, but I keep business cards and small mementos in there. I think everything back then was for cigarettes.
00:09:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. It's again, and in fact, you know, you also have like smoking sets and things like that. And then the other thing that I found myself collecting or the big thing that I found myself collecting is I have an Elvis compendium from the period which I really love.
00:09:43
Speaker
which I can only describe as a sort of a rotating cube that has a really beautiful manually wound clock on one side with a sector dial and it has like a barometer slash weather station on one side and a compass on the other and a calendar on one and lastly a sort of thermometer on the final side.
00:10:07
Speaker
And as objects, I just find them, you know, really, really beautiful. They're believed to have been designed by an architect called Paul de Crileffon, who was just, you know, he was known, I think, as the architect to millionaires or billionaires. I can't remember exactly what the sort of term was for his style. But he produced these wonderful compendiums, he designed these wonderful compendiums in collaboration with Almez.
00:10:35
Speaker
And they all just take me back to an era. They all just take me back to an era, yes, that I find inspiring, you know, let's say art deco in many cases, but they also fit absolutely perfectly with other beautiful objects from present day. And they speak to me, they seem timeless, they seem very high quality.
00:10:57
Speaker
And I've not really seen things in their equivalent ilk that have impressed me more than you can find today, necessarily. So once they fit well with everything else, I still think that these are great examples of things that haven't really been bettered or bested.
Challenges and Partnerships in Hermes Silver
00:11:14
Speaker
And so I enjoy them and collect them as much for their aesthetic and design value, as far as it appeals to me as a layman, but equally or more so because I just like how they make me feel. And I like seeing them in my home and I like juxtaposing them with, you know, books and old bowls of matchboxes from old hotels and the US from the fifties and, you know, this and the other.
00:11:43
Speaker
I mean, Hermes has always been a very desirable brand, right? I think right out of the gates, they were a luxury brand, even when they were making the saddles and harnesses. But what do you think makes their designs of, I guess, these silver goods in particular? So they're so decadent, but they're really understated and elegant at the same time, which is very hard to do. Yeah, it's a good question. I think that
00:12:10
Speaker
If anyone else produced them, you might feel like they were too much. But because it's Amaz, because they have such an incredible history and association with, you know, a very particular heritage and have such huge credibility in the manufacture of and design of highly quality of goods. And because their designs are so evocative and tied to, you know, key periods of design history,
00:12:39
Speaker
They just, they feel so at home, both when they were designed and in the kind of like, you know, the
00:12:48
Speaker
the catalogue of objects at the home that would be associated with a person enjoying a pretty high quality of life and living in a pretty beautiful space. But they're timeless. They look great today as much as they did in the 50s. It reminds me of something else.
00:13:11
Speaker
I saw that the CEO of instagram lives in London now recently went to the design museum he posted one of his stories and i was there i think the day before seeing on the exhibitions and then i popped up to the permanent exhibition i saw the same thing as he did coincidentally and you look around and.
00:13:30
Speaker
It's just so obvious when you look around intuitively at what makes great design. It doesn't mean that it's easy to enumerate it or to explain it on the spot like this, but you can just feel instinctively
00:13:46
Speaker
that really screams original thinking, but carefully considered and well made because it doesn't have to be an object of craft. It can be an industrial design, but where everything is just right and you can really appreciate the careful thoughts and consideration went into design.
00:14:12
Speaker
that I find inspiring and that's why I think these sort of objects look as good today as they did then and why people still find them as compelling as they do and why people still collect them. Yeah, you really can't not appreciate them, especially from just a design aesthetic standpoint.
00:14:34
Speaker
And they are truly quite rare. I mean, so as a collector, how hard are these to find? So I'm very lucky. I liked these things going back six, seven, eight years. I was already interested in these things. In fact, I think I think I was interested in things like this going back 15, 15, 16 years when I used to go to
00:14:55
Speaker
these little flea markets in France on the side of motorway roads and just go pouring through all the cupboards of these bits of furniture that were gathering dust by the side of the road in the hope of finding something in the drawer that was
00:15:11
Speaker
not appreciated in that, you know, almost like a hidden treasure. So I've always been interested in this sort of thing. I'm very lucky today because I'm surrounded by people at ACM that have, you know, a really considered eye and a knife of quality. And we're very good at looking around and, you know, being able to tell the sort of the week from the chaff, so to speak, because of the requirements professionally of what we do for everything else. And so
00:15:41
Speaker
For me, it's often just a question of being inspired by things that we've sold or that I've come across or that I know that someone in the team has bought and then looking myself elsewhere. But I'm very lucky I'm able to turn to colleagues and friends for advice and guidance because they also share my passion.
00:16:02
Speaker
When it comes to these silver goods, was Hermes making these themselves or did they have another Maison or like a silversmith making them for them? Because that was kind of a common thing back then was to essentially partner with somebody else when you didn't have the, I guess the infrastructure to do it on your own.
00:16:19
Speaker
Yeah, so, you know, the astray that you mentioned was made by Haviné d'Enfer, who was like very famous silversmiths in Paris. I think that they made a lot of these objects for filmres. I know that they made the guilloche silver cigarette pots as well. I'm not sure about the question boxes, I have to admit.
00:16:44
Speaker
It could have been them, or it could have been somebody else by then. But yes, typically, if Almez couldn't do something in themselves, or I think if they didn't have the specialism, they would turn to those who are, if not the best of the best, and certainly very much up there in terms of their particular area of craft and skill. Yeah, it seems like all of the, I guess, objects that have the engine turned design or guilloche design was definitely made by that Maison.
00:17:14
Speaker
It's a very, very similar design between all of them. But from what I've seen from the ones that you've posted, the ones that were engine turned had like a round name plate in the middle, maybe for like a monogram or something like that for whoever owned them at the time. But do you think that having the monogram plate was reserved for certain items like the taste bins and the cigarette pots and ashtrays and stuff like that, or just, you know,
00:17:42
Speaker
any sort of cylindrical design? I don't know. I know that my taste of ashtray has an engraving from 1959 in the middle. None of my other objects other than my equestrian box. That has a personalization on the inside and it's just engraved on the inside of the lid in a really beautiful hand script.
00:18:07
Speaker
But i think that those spaces were very much intended for people to personalize if that's what they wanted but i think very often people chose not to unless they were given as gifts.
00:18:21
Speaker
that was a good bit of commercial thinking on that part to always leave it open to a little bit more consideration. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't even look bad blank, so it's still a nice design aesthetic.
Personal Collection vs Business
00:18:35
Speaker
But when it comes to collecting these for a collect demand site versus your personal collection, are there variances or leniency in condition when it's for your personal self?
00:18:48
Speaker
Yes and no. I think the standard is basically the same, I would say, but there's probably a bit more breadth in terms of what we offer through the website. It's the combination of multiple people's taste versus just my taste specifically. Mine is a very classical taste. I collect
00:19:08
Speaker
mid-century Scandinavian furniture, which is pretty minimalist and that kind of matches with the other things that I surround myself with that I like. I'm just looking around now and it's hard to describe, but everything sort of makes sense. There's a color palette, there's a style, you know, the
00:19:30
Speaker
the omens objects all the extra clocks cuz i collect vintage kind of like jlc clocks as well so i have this jlc travel clock whether that's kartia signs right like absolutely love that's amazing
00:19:46
Speaker
Yeah, it's something that I absolutely adore. And then I have a stainless steel JLC desk clock. It's kind of a sector dial and it's a circle that's slightly raised and it's the size of your hand with a manually wound movement. And that
00:20:09
Speaker
in combination with some of the Amaz staff and then in combination with a few other things that kind of like dot around my living room books and my vinyl player and my vinyl collection and my furniture. It also sort of fits together and in that sense it's very personal and therefore it restricts perhaps what I would buy for myself versus what we can offer to a broader audience through the website.
00:20:36
Speaker
there are many, many amazing things out there that just that I may not collect, that I wish perhaps I had a home for or could collect or, you know, felt like would fit well in amongst the things that I surround myself with. But for one reason or another, they don't quite work. But they are themselves intrinsically interesting and wonderful to look at.
00:21:00
Speaker
You've sold a lot of these items on the site already, and I'm so sad that I missed a decent amount of them, but there's one in particular that I am so upset that I missed, and that is the two-tone pair of coasters with the rope design, and they're really more of wine coasters or bottle coasters.
00:21:18
Speaker
Those are absolutely incredible. And I'm going to be keeping an eye out if any more pop up. But for me, if I own these, they would be really hard to let go of. So do you ever have that feeling of regret listing some of these for the site? I think that in the same way that when I started the business, the company very much with a business, I first with a sort of an ability to take distance emotionally from the objects, no matter how I felt about them.
00:21:47
Speaker
that created a good foundation to grow the company thereafter by being focused on the right things. I think in the same way, I'm able to say to myself, well, even if I miss this one at some point in the future, I'm sure I'll come across another similar opportunity. And even if I'm lying to myself, and I won't ever have that opportunity again, it's still a nice self-delusion to say there's always hope that you're going to find
00:22:17
Speaker
you know something as good or better sadly in over the last eight years it's more often the case not that you don't.
00:22:25
Speaker
But there are a couple of things recently that have really caught my eye that I absolutely loved. And I wish I'd thought about more. There was a George Grant McDonald decanter with this amazing textured bark finishing on the lid and on the neck, which I adored. Or one of the Henkle Zeppelin cocktail shakers, which I think are just insanely cool from the 30s, I think they are, 30s or 40s. Yeah, they're incredible.
00:22:55
Speaker
And all the way back to the very beginning of when we started to sell collectibles, there was a clock, a really simple, I think it was a Benson clock, that we found, or my colleague found, an Art Deco Benson clock, English made, J.W. Benson.
00:23:15
Speaker
that just absolutely, if you haven't seen it before, I recommend going and have a look. It's like I think on the first page of our collectibles from all the way back or the last page. It has a Swiss movement and it has this really nice stainless steel case where these just beautifully patternated sword hands
00:23:37
Speaker
blue steeled hands, but with wonderful tritium patternation in the middle. The almost matchstick dagger index markers are incredible. The dial is unsigned. It came in a wonderful little leather traveling case. I can't remember what we sold it for at the time, but compared to what we bought it for, it was a great deal even after getting it serviced.
00:24:01
Speaker
But I just, as in it was a good return on investment for us as a business, but even then I remember thinking I would happily pay that or more, but you can't, you know, you have to be able to resist that temptation and you have to be able to like push that voice down because, you know, there are always gonna be things that are great until something better comes along. And if not, then having regrets is part of the journey. Are there any pieces from Hermes that you're coveting?
00:24:31
Speaker
Not really, not now. I'm sure there will be. I mean, the fun of it is in the discovery and coming across something suddenly and being like, I didn't know that exists is super fun. I'm very lucky. I think I was able to sort of get most of the things that I really wanted.
00:24:49
Speaker
I'm sure there is some really fantastic as objects and as you say i don't i don't have like a really nice that is coasters which i would like. You know there are other like incredible objects they made that really speak to me you know where is the pen holders or the natural or you know things like that.
00:25:08
Speaker
There was this incredible cigarette box with two silver-gilt-plated dolphins, I think, or like two gilt sort of golden-looking dolphins with intertwined tails. That's a little off the cuff for them. Yeah, well, I mean, there were more things of that nature, but it's just like that was a really beautiful, beautiful object.
00:25:32
Speaker
And I hope to find something to see something like that again soon. I wanted an Elmer's money clip at some point, like a vintage money clip. The stirrup ones that you've sold on the site were amazing. Yeah, exactly. Those were wonderful. I thought to myself, I might find something like that in due course.
00:25:52
Speaker
Yeah. Broadly speaking, for now, I'm very happy. At some point, I'm sure I'll come across something that I absolutely covet, that I didn't know existed. I'm pretty happy with where things are for the time being. Are there plans to get into more dealings of antiquities on the site and a broader range?
Discoveries in Auctions and Photography
00:26:12
Speaker
possibly. I think it's one of those things where you always have to be sensitive to and smart about what you focus on because you only have so many hours in the day and you can only do so much. And with the team, even with the really fantastic team that we're lucky to have at ACM, you need to focus on your core activity first and foremost, and our core activity is watches.
00:26:39
Speaker
Collectibles are almost the fun things that we do on the side to show that there's more that we're interested in simply watches, but watches need to remain the overriding core area of interest. I don't know is the answer at this point. It would be nice to and maybe, but there are specialists for those sorts of things outside of the things that we're selling right now.
00:27:04
Speaker
And I tend to be inclined to think that unless you're able to offer that same high level of expertise in all the things you do, that you're better off keeping yourself a little bit back and focusing on the areas where you're really able to add value. Yeah, I think the nice thing is about
00:27:23
Speaker
you guys selling this sort of stuff on the website now is that it really gives you first-rider refusal for your customers when they stumble upon these things in their home or at an auction or at a sale and they don't know what to do with them and now that they know that you sell them, it gives them an option to reach out to you and gives you first-rider refusal probably.
00:27:43
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. Although most of the things that we offer, we find ourselves, occasionally, clients will consign or sell things to us of that nature. But a lot of this stuff, you're going to discover at like 2 AM on eBay, or like at some really niche auction house in Finland or Japan, or wherever it may be, or some small antique
00:28:10
Speaker
shop in the middle of nowhere in France. That chase and finding these kind of special things and bringing them to people's attention is a huge part of the fun. It's definitely something that I take particular pleasure in. Love it. All right. Let's talk watches for a sec.
00:28:30
Speaker
Sure. Sounds good. So before I ask this next question, you guys have written a fantastic piece on this in your journal already, but I just have to ask and it'll be easiest to hear from you. And I'll definitely direct people to the article, but how in the world is your lighting and photography so perfect?
00:28:50
Speaker
That's very kind of you to say I can't speak for our photographers But I've you know I've been fortunate to be able to work alongside them often on for the last eight years and so I've I've seen what they do and You know our current photographer is particularly talented and we had a meeting only this morning to talk about it and
00:29:10
Speaker
You know, I think that we're very fond of using natural light whenever we can. We're also not afraid or he's not afraid of using harsh light to kind of like to really like create harsh shadows and strong illuminations across particular details or watches.
00:29:28
Speaker
for things that have had some free dimensionality to them, or for example, a skeletonized dial, being willing to experiment with multiple sources of light simultaneously and deflectors to be able to capture not only the transparent aspect of being able to look through the dial,
00:29:50
Speaker
but also highlighting gold details or rubies or special engravings or textures. That all comes with practice and we're fortunate to have someone who's very talented, but also is never satisfied with just the status quo. This is literally the nature of the conversation this morning, even after five years. It's like, okay, so what do we do next? How do we innovate? What do we try?
00:30:15
Speaker
What are people not doing you know what are people copying what are people bored off. What can we do better what details are we failing to be able to highlight because of the setup all the limitations that we've been posed on ourselves and you know i think it's that it's that spirit of.
00:30:33
Speaker
curiosity and entrepreneurialism as a photographer that keeps someone self-motivated to push forward and try more.
Independent Watchmakers and Future Trends
00:30:43
Speaker
But he'll be the first to admit, as I would, that there are times when it gets repetitive and you find yourself
00:30:49
Speaker
stuck in a loop of doing the same thing again and again and finding the moment to break that and try something new and to say this can be better or this is boring is equally just as important as avoiding sitting on your laurels. Well, you guys are, in my eyes, doing a great job on photography. I could spot one of your photos in the rough and know exactly where and what website to go to to find it. That's very kind.
00:31:19
Speaker
So it's no secret that you love independent watchmakers and it's become a big part of your business and your brand, but are there any up and coming independents that you have your eye on that maybe haven't gone too mainstream yet?
00:31:34
Speaker
Yeah, I think that there are a number of really interesting indies out there who are coming to the surface, perhaps too many to even list, which I think is fantastic. That's something that was less the case a couple of years ago. There's a gentleman called, for example, Bernhard Schwintz, who's
00:31:53
Speaker
restarted a brand called Vinol inspired by a famous Austrian watchmaker and chronometer maker who has taken elements of that design, that chronometer design, ships chronometer design, and reinterpreted them.
00:32:12
Speaker
you know, applied the incredible knowledge and experience they developed, I think, over 12 years working, or eight years or five years, whatever it was, it was a long time, at Philippe du For, in Philippe du For's workshop, who's the kind of like, top finisher, I would say, or, you know, independent watchmaker.
00:32:30
Speaker
in Switzerland. I think he's doing really exciting stuff. I think there are young guys like Tuofrin Paris and Simon Breit in Switzerland that have either progressed things to a stage where they're already very widely recognized or will soon be widely recognized, I think, for what they can offer. Obviously, we're privileged to work with Retschep, Retschepi, Vakrivia, and Peter M. Bedard, a guy I love coming off of Peter M. Bedard.
00:33:00
Speaker
I'm a big fan of Sylvain Pinot. He's a really interesting man who has got a really interesting style and he won a GPHG this year, quite little last year, quite deservedly.
00:33:14
Speaker
And then you have people like Raul Pajes as well, who I really, really like and really, really rate. So yeah, I think there's a lot of very promising talent coming through, and there are many, many others besides those I've just mentioned. And I think it's an exciting time to be in independent watchmaking, to be an independent watchmaker, and to collect independent watchmaking. I think we've entered an era that's really going to be increasingly fun and original and challenging on all fronts.
00:33:43
Speaker
Absolutely. The talent is better now than it has ever been, in my opinion. For sure. For sure. I was asked this to my guests who collect in the profession that they also make a living from, but what is the challenge between keeping a watch for yourself versus selling it to your clients if it's something that happens to catch your eye?
00:34:08
Speaker
You know, I've been in that situation a couple of times, you know, where things have crossed my desk or our desk. And I thought to myself, gosh, I would love to own that watch, all those watches.
00:34:24
Speaker
But the reality is, and I think this is something that I agree with, you know, I think, you know, Todd Levin, one of your former guests, is a really very close friend of mine and I've always admired hugely his level of professionalism as an art advisor and the way he kind of navigates the ethical line very, very cleanly and professionally. He's on another level.
00:34:53
Speaker
Yeah, he is. And I think art has obviously, art collecting is a much deeper, more developed and much more significant market than watch collecting is because watch collecting has really only come to the fray in the last, let's say 30 years or so, 35 years. But he's very clear about the importance of putting your clients first. And
00:35:16
Speaker
I think in the very few instances where I have acquired a watch, where my knowledge or awareness of that has come about by virtue of being in the position that I am professionally, I always am very transparent, my colleagues about it. And in every major instance,
00:35:34
Speaker
where it's been a pre-owned piece, it's been a situation where it hasn't made sense for the company at the time either from a capital perspective or from an accumulation of a particular kind of inventory perspective where there's too much of a certain kind of thing or the market price is so high that it's just from a business perspective too much of a
00:35:57
Speaker
an optimization of spending perspective, not the best choice, but from a personal perspective, if I'm willing to hold it for two, three, four, five years, it's a very different calculation. And so I navigate that tightrope as cleanly and as publicly as possible. I try and avoid situations. People don't realize, but I often buy independently as a collector or auction and
00:36:23
Speaker
buy stuff just like anybody else to avoid any kind of possible conflict with the company. I'm not on the sourcing or sales side of the business. I haven't been for a long time. It's not like I have a special insight. I don't have the inbox. I don't know what clients are offering us. I just find out a week to 10 days later when it pops up on my screen or I see it being shot or one of my colleagues tells me at a meeting, which is fantastic.
00:36:47
Speaker
But I think ultimately, the people who kind of lead our sourcing and selling things, you know, some of the business, particularly like my colleague and friend Robert Bahram, you know, are such upstanding. And, you know, they have a very like strong moral dimension to the way they think about things, and also a very responsible commercial attitude, which which basically is, you know, what's the best interest of the business, ultimately,
00:37:14
Speaker
very, very, very, very rarely do the interests of clients in any way come close to conflicting with personal interests. And when there is a potential conflict of interest, I can say very honestly, we bend over backwards to
00:37:31
Speaker
to try and make sure that navigating that is done in the smartest, most sensitive, and most least likely to keep us up at night way. And 90% of the time, even when you do that, you end up passing on an opportunity because you don't want to ever find yourself in a compromised position. So I'm not going to suggest that it's quite as impressively disciplined as Todd
00:38:01
Speaker
knowing him for a long time. I was, I was a bit blown away by just how like clear cut and strict he was, but it's the space that we're in. The reputation aspect is so important that even if you are going to occasionally make mistakes, it's so important to like try your absolute best to avoid them.
Auction Success and Software Investments
00:38:22
Speaker
at all costs because if you compromise that trust or you fundamentally make someone an important client question where your sort of loyalties are, I suppose, or where your kind of principal kind of prioritization of interests are, you're very quickly down a sort of slippery slope. So it's a very long answer to a simple question.
00:38:47
Speaker
But at this level, particularly when you're talking about unique pieces or multi-million dollar watches,
00:38:54
Speaker
I will happily compromise my own interests any day of the week over compromising the interests of our clients, whether buying or selling. And it's not from a sort of righteous, high and mighty, holier than that perspective. It's just simple common sense. You don't want to ever put yourself in a position where you are suddenly having to
00:39:17
Speaker
lie to a client. You never want to be in a position where you're having to twist the truth. My father always used to say, it costs a lot more to tell a lie than to tell the truth. I fundamentally believe that to be as relevant today as it was the time when he told me. I think that's something that we try and apply throughout the business, but we don't always get it right. There are moments where you mess up and then you just have to sort it out as best possible.
00:39:44
Speaker
You guys have recently launched auctions on your platform. How's that been going for you?
00:39:49
Speaker
Yeah, so we launched auctions last year. We tested it with three auctions in short succession with multiple pieces during the summer and it went very well. And then we had a one-off very special auction of a Roger Smith unique piece in, I think it was late November of last year, that we commissioned from Roger about four or five years ago, where a percentage of the proceeds went to helping support and encourage British watchmaking. Was that piece always meant for an auction?
00:40:19
Speaker
Yes. No, no, no. Not originally, but as time passed and things aligned and conversations were able to happen with Roger, it just made perfect sense. I'm very glad we auctioned it because it sold for a world record price for a Series 1. It was incredible.
00:40:36
Speaker
Yeah, and thank you. And in the process, you know, I think we gave £110,000 to fund, you know, this new educational kind of initiative through the Alliance of British Clock and Watchmakers chaired by Roger Smith. And, you know, hopefully that will do some good.
00:40:56
Speaker
But it's good. Auctions are fun and we're going to be continuing to figure out the best way to deploy them to the benefit of the market and our clients. And we're investing, as I speak, in our own applications and software to be able to really make sure that we have something that's really good that we can build on.
Strategies for Watch Collecting
00:41:21
Speaker
When it comes to collecting watches for your personal collection, are there specific brands that you're looking for and what are the attributes that excite you the most? Are you a dial guy or a case-shaped guy or a case-conditioned guy?
00:41:36
Speaker
So when I started buying watches, let's say, for my personal collection, it was an extension of two things. One, as a businessman, seeing how the market was growing, I saw the opportunity in those early days to put money into something that I thought would be a better store of value and had a good chance of appreciating, which on a small personal level, that speculative element was, I think, sensible.
00:42:01
Speaker
I didn't have a lot of money. I didn't have a lot of disposable income. And so you had to, I always said to people, open the door with your brain and let your heart walk through it. If you're going to make an emotional decision, at the very least, make sure that there's a rationalization of it as well, if it's a significant investment. That was how it started. And then over the years, as I was fortunate to be able to afford to spend a little bit more and invest,
00:42:29
Speaker
A lot of the things that I like in mid-century Scandinavian furniture or mid-century Hermes, silver, objetat, let's say, or all sorts of other things that are of a similar ilk and nature, they all share this design that speaks to me, or a provenance that inspires me and excites me, or they have a special meaning to me because of what they represent in my life, professionally, personally.
00:42:57
Speaker
all i just kind of you know i can't help but get excited about the idea of something being really cool other people still don't understand and thinking you know i absolutely. Want to get one of these things and have my wrist because i love the fact that you know the vast majority people have no idea what it is and they don't really.
00:43:16
Speaker
think it's anything special, but they will do one day because there's an extra ability to great craft and great design being eventually appreciated. It's never a question of if it's a question of when, even if it was appreciated at the time and then it disappears. I really do believe that provided it survives in its physical intactness,
00:43:39
Speaker
at some point, amazing things, you know, rediscovered and re-recognized. And there's something fun about doing that as a collector of watches. I don't have the time or the knowledge to be able to be an art collector. I would love to be an art collector. I would love to collect more and more interesting pieces of furniture. I would love to collect objects, you know, beyond the kind of safe space of Intigel Mez or whatever else it may be.
00:44:08
Speaker
where I'm not taking any risk versus how I am with watches where I can really be confident about pushing out the envelope because I'm very privileged along with other people who are equally interested in this space to be able to see
00:44:23
Speaker
you know, that there are these other things that are just either haven't been discovered yet, because they've just entered the market, you know, watchmakers have only just, you know, launched their brands or, or things that have been forgotten, but that fundamentally share these incredible characteristics with other things that have since been recognized. So, you know, whether it was early Rouge Dubri, or early Daniel Roth,
00:44:47
Speaker
or even early Frank Muller or early Parmigiani, these are all brands that for a long time disappeared from the collective consciousness of watch collectors and people weren't interested. And then slowly but surely as information became more accessible, as social media made it easier to share things, as platforms like Adinkie and us and others wrote about them and contributed some sort of value add to the collective consciousness.
00:45:13
Speaker
people discovered them and it's just always fun to sort of look at where we are today and look where the path would probably lead us in a year or two or three and say, you know what, realistically, by the time that happens, I'm not going to be able to afford X or Y, but if I can apply myself now,
00:45:29
Speaker
I can exit this thing that has done very well but it's now worth an amount of money that is hard to kind of ignore in terms of the opportunity cost that it represents if I'm not like fundamentally desperately in love with it as an object what can I potentially do with that that you know potentially will give me even more satisfaction over the next couple of years.
00:45:50
Speaker
And that's what I've done consistently over the last five or six years as a collector, is I've tried to spot things that I thought were special, tried to understand the fundamentals of that market or the product design.
00:46:03
Speaker
And then I've tried to sort of benchmark it and acquire and collect things before they become popular, really have the time to enjoy them. And then 50% of them I'll move on when they get more valuable and reinvest in things that are once again, underappreciated so that I can enjoy them for a few years at the very least.
00:46:25
Speaker
until once again they become uninsurable. So that's been my approach historically. But now what I'm doing increasingly is I'm commissioning pieces from independent watchmakers where possible unique pieces, knowing that those are the sorts of things I just want to sell in the future. And so it's a sort of evolution.
00:46:43
Speaker
from buying pre-owned things that I thought were super cool to figuring out if there are things that I can mission because of the relationships I've been able to develop over the last eight years through friendships and business that will potentially mean a lot more to me like my Smith series one that means everything to me.
00:47:02
Speaker
But realistically, once I've committed to them, you know, that's it. They're in the collection for the long term. And that's been a shift. That's been an interesting shift and a kind of maturity or a maturing of my sort of collecting pattern as an individual. Yeah, that stuff's a whole different ballgame. Very much. Very, very much.
00:47:24
Speaker
All right, so let's wrap it up here with the collector's gene rundown and you can answer these questions based on any of the collections that you have. So we could talk Hermes, we could talk watches, we could talk vinyls. Any of that stuff sound good? Yeah, it sounds good. All right. What's the one that got away? Wow.
00:47:43
Speaker
Well, there was a watch that I've often referenced as being the one that got away, you know, and I think it's true. There was a Würzleinen observatoire, which carries first round serially produced watch, a round case serially produced watch with a Puzur 260 observatory chronometer graded movement. And I just remember having, you know, the very, very first one he ever made,
00:48:14
Speaker
in our hands and selling it at the very beginning of the business. It had a completely different and much more pared-back reserved aesthetic compared to later executions. I'm a huge fan of pared-back minimalism when it comes to design.
00:48:28
Speaker
not Spartan, but just the right side of Understated. It really speaks to me and it really inspires me. And that watch was really beautiful and simple, but a wonderful, wonderful piece. And I'm very glad that it went to who it did and the collection that it ended up in.
00:48:47
Speaker
But I can't help but always think back to that and go, damn, I wish I was substantially wealthier and substantially smarter and substantially more experienced when that crossed my desk, because if I'd been any of all of those things, then I would have been able to.
00:49:03
Speaker
recognize that that was something that I should have held on to. But I wouldn't have met the watch collector that I did. And it was the first great independent that we ever sold, and an inspiration for a large part of the business. So who knows, if I kept it, maybe a lot of other much more important things wouldn't have come from it. And I'd regret that. So it's bittersweet.
00:49:26
Speaker
I'm sure that that collector knows that if they ever decide to sell it, that you're very interested. Yes, very true. I've had that conversation. All right. How about the on deck circle? What's next for you in your collecting?
00:49:40
Speaker
I think that from a watch perspective, I've got a number of independent watches that have been agreed with independent watchmakers that either have been commissioned or been made or will soon be that I'm really looking forward to from
00:49:56
Speaker
Ithma Midar and Richard Rachepi and others. I'm also paradoxically really looking forward to a watch that I think most people would be surprised to know that I like, but actually I really tried it on and thought it was amazing.
Dreams and Aspirations in Collecting
00:50:11
Speaker
It's an Hichamil, it's an RM67 in titanium, which is like a really slim to the wrist profile watch that just is very light and just feels very, very, very, very cool on the wrist.
00:50:26
Speaker
The only thing I can compare it to is I drive, I don't collect cars, but I have a collectible car, or as Phil Teledano would probably say, like a very safe car.
00:50:35
Speaker
I have a 1971 Porsche 911T in slate gray and I just, you know, when I get into it and when I turn on the engine and sort of pump the gas, you know, there is something absolutely incredible about the feeling that I get every single time I do that and then I open my garage and I reverse that and I turn over my shoulder and I look over my shoulder and I'm
00:51:02
Speaker
it's just the most incredible feeling. And I think that feeling I get every time I drive that car, I think is not a million miles removed from how I think I'll feel when I put the RM67 on my wrist, even if it's not so frequent because it's such a recognizable design. And it's probably very similar to the feeling I had when I... The first time I put my modern Rolex Daytona on my wrist three years ago, it's just, I think, something that I'll
00:51:29
Speaker
I'll really enjoy wearing and really enjoying owning because it makes me feel good. Are you waiting for the right one to come around or the right price? No, I've been waiting. I'm very fortunate to be on the list. There you go. I'm hoping my ticket comes up this year, but I'm very grateful either way.
00:51:53
Speaker
Absolutely. How about the unobtainable? Maybe one you can't have that's too expensive or in a museum or private collection? Yeah, I think that list is endless. But there are these pieces of incredible provenance.
00:52:10
Speaker
You know, there's the first, the only stainless steel Roger Smith, or, you know, the kind of Titsunori by Juffour, or, you know, the only, you know, the kind of, there's a, there's a, there's a Daniels and Smith double signed wristwatch out there that I think is incredibly cool. That's definitely a unicorn. You know, I'd love to own a Ferrari 250 GTO. I'd love to own, you know, an incredible kind of James Bond Aston Martin.
00:52:40
Speaker
you know, maybe one day, one of those things could happen. But, you know, the reality is, sadly, most likely not. And, you know, you have to just make your peace with that and be content with what you have. Absolutely. Have you ever driven George's Ferrari? No, sadly not. I know George through
00:53:04
Speaker
the watch circles, and I'm a big admirer of everything he's achieved and everything that he does with the Banford Watch department. But no, I've never had the pleasure of driving this Ferrari. If it could like you, you guys should link up. Yeah, that's a good idea. I'm not sure he'd let me in his car, but
00:53:28
Speaker
I appreciate the idea. How about the page one rewrite? So if you could collect one thing besides your current collections, what would it be? I'd love to collect contemporary art, I think. But I think I'd love to, you know, I'd take it a step back and just say I'd love to be able to collect something that is artistic, whether it's an object or a painting, a sculpture or some kind of installation, even photography and things like that.
00:53:56
Speaker
You know, with a degree of sophistication that's greater than simply, oh, I like that, or like, I recognize that name, or I've read something about this person, or so and so has this, and that's cool, and therefore, and they have good taste, therefore, this is a good idea. I'd love to be able to dedicate
00:54:13
Speaker
a portion of my time to the kind of understanding at a fundamental level of like, what makes things special. And, you know, I think at some point, against his will, no doubt, I'm gonna have to press gang Todd Levin into, you know, giving me a little bit of his time, maybe I'll, you know, spend a weekend with him at some point, New York and bribe him with a few good meals, but you know, kind of just I'd love to, I'd love to benefit from the insight and knowledge, even at a sort of elementary and entry level.
00:54:43
Speaker
to what someone like Todd with his eye and expertise looks for. You can't compress decades of experience and I think to doctorates or several masters into a couple of days of conversation. But I would like to educate myself about art
00:55:06
Speaker
and find a niche that really inspires me. I hope to do that, but also to do it with furniture and other objects of design and maybe one day be able to patronize an artist in the same way that I'm able to do that today with independent watchmaking. But all good things in due time and due course. Yeah, Todd wouldn't be so bad to learn from. I think he would be an excellent teacher.
00:55:34
Speaker
How about the goat? So, anybody you look up to in the collecting world?
00:55:39
Speaker
Oof, I mean, funny enough, Todd would be the first person. I think Arrow Montanari, otherwise known as John Goldberger, is someone that I've always admired, was extremely diverse, but sophisticated taste in watches. And I think even more than that, we have multiple clients that I can't reference and, sadly, talk about for confidentiality reasons and discretion reasons, but their collections, not just of watches, but other things are truly
00:56:09
Speaker
Incredible you know there are people out there who have these insane collections of things of lots of shapes and descriptions that i just attacked you in georgia.
00:56:20
Speaker
And nobody knows that they have this incredible taste and this incredible eye and this incredible knowledge that they've accumulated, but that's their private passion and they want it to remain private. And so I'm extremely grateful and desperately privileged to be able to interact with those people on a not infrequent basis and to be able to share a little bit of their collecting passion and have some really fun conversations along the way.
00:56:49
Speaker
Yeah, I think there are too many to list or name, even if I could. But certainly publicly, I would say Aro and Todd are two people that inspire me. Todd's house is incredible. And Aro's taste in watches and other things. And his general Spezatura is just spectacular. The hunt or the ownership, do you enjoy the hunt for the item or looking at it on your shelf? Both in equal measure without hesitation.
00:57:19
Speaker
And most importantly, do you feel that you were born with the collector's gene? I don't know. I think that I, you know, I collected, you know, there was a time when I collected rocks like lots of people did for a summer. I used to like dig up quartz, I chisel away at quartz and chisel away at various rocks and try and crack them up and find beautiful things inside.
00:57:42
Speaker
You know, I collected planes and this and the other. I liked having these collections that I could understand and sort of categorize. But I'll be honest, I wasn't the sort of...
00:57:58
Speaker
for want of a better word, a geeky collector either. I was attracted to interesting things at different times in my life. As you get older, you refine your taste, you stop wasting as much time and effort and money on things because you're able to better judge what will have the greatest impact on your quality of life and what will mean the most to you.
00:58:20
Speaker
So I think I had certainly a predisposition towards collecting, but I wasn't an obsessive collector. I just think that now, you know, everything has come together and that marriage of beautiful new things and beautiful old things and
00:58:42
Speaker
the depth information and the resources available and the time that i can spend and the exposure that i get to these different things through different medium and different people mean that it's become increasingly a part of my life and so i wouldn't flatter myself to say that i had the collector's gene but i certainly had the collectors inclination i would say.
00:59:05
Speaker
I love it. There you have it. Silas Walton, thank you so much for coming on the Collector's Team radio and taking time out of your evening to chat with us today. Thank you, Cameron. I appreciated it. It was a lot of fun. Glad we could make the time. Appreciate it. I'll be sure to reach out to you next time I'm in London. I got to see how this photography goes down with my own eyes. Very good. It was a pleasure. You're certainly welcome. Do give me a shout. All right. You got it. Take care. Ciao.
00:59:35
Speaker
All right, that does it for this episode. Thank you all for listening to Collector's Gene Radio.