Transcript
Speaker: I'm Jane Williams, this is the Red Eye Podcast. You can hear a live broadcast on Saturday mornings from 10 until noon at 100 .5 FM in the Lower Mainland. Today I talk with Claire Largerny, co -author of a new study on links between deforestation and epidemics.
Speaker: As we enter the second year of the pandemic, a new study has found that outbreaks of infectious diseases are more likely in areas that have been stripped of their forest cover or that are used for monoculture plantations. The study, published March 24th in Frontiers in Veterinary Science, suggests epidemics are likely to increase as biodiversity declines.
Speaker: Authors Serge Morin and Claire Lajonie say that healthy forests are critical to human health, animal health, and environmental health. Claire Lajonie is a researcher with the National Institute of Health and Medical Research in France and she joins me today from Marseille. Hello Claire. Hello, thank you for your invitation. It's a pleasure to have you with us today.
Speaker: How exactly do forests protect us from disease outbreaks?
Speaker: perhaps protects us because they are biodiverse and that biodiversity is a way to preserve from disease outbreaks in the sense that the diversity of habitats of species, whether they are plants or animals, is providing space for biodiversity, of course, and
Speaker: That biodiversity is also a way to avoid that one species is taking over one habitat and then the diversity is making the diseases become the natural part but not spreading all over because there is no disturbance of the habitat.
Speaker: So with this study we have shown that there is a correlation between the outbreaks of disease and the loss of forest cover and commodities plantation. So the point here is to discuss the fact that to protect forests will help to protect biodiversity.
Speaker: I understand you looked at 30 years worth of statistics on forest cover and plantations and population and disease around the globe. Then were you looking for correlations?
Speaker: Yeah, the point was to see if there were correlations because former studies have shown in different regions such correlations, but not worldwide. Like we have done using FAO data for the forest and Gideon data for it, which is a database on infectious diseases.
Speaker: And so that was a way to show from big databases what was the reality of the link between the outbreak of this disease and the forest loss. And you were looking at two kinds of infectious disease, zoonotic, that is when it jumps the species barrier, and vector -borne, that's like mosquitoes, flies. Exactly, exactly.
Speaker: Okay, so what jumped out at you from the data? Interestingly, there is a definition which is a bit wide of the forest.
Speaker: So I say that because from the results we have seen the loss of forest but we have to make sure that we understand the same thing when we speak about forests and this is crucial to consider the biodiversity within a forest because if the forest is pouring species
Speaker: then there is here a loss of biodiversity and it's happening with operation of reforestation and this is something we discovered with the data is that not only the forest loss due to the cut of forest but operation of reforestation or afforestation could lead to a loss of biodiversity and an increasing outbreak of disease.
Speaker: What kind of reforestation leads to disease? Mainly commodity plantations. And we studied here oil palm plantations that are numerous in Southeast Asia, mainly in Malaysia, Indonesia. And former studies have shown that there is an impact of palm oil plantations on outbreaks, but it has been confirmed with our study.
Speaker: Are there cases where disease has been found to be causally linked to deforestation, not just correlation?
Speaker: It's difficult because it's multi -factor also, so it's difficult to disentangle the different factors and this is something I'm used to say because I work on my side, I'm an environmental lawyer and I work also on public policies and it's difficult to see the different effects and to see which exactly is the cause of something
Speaker: So it's correlation now because we cannot be sure but we have to continue and to dig in and it depends on the scale we are studying as well. We can see effect at the local scale and correlations are good because we can go on with that work and study it deeper. What is it about the disturbance of forests that leads to disease?
Speaker: mainly the land use change, the habitat change for the animals, it is leading to animals in different environments and with deforestation the land is becoming patchy and so the habitat is completely changing and there is a loss of variety of predators and so the effects are cascading in a way
Speaker: So there is that loss of habitat, the animals that are spreading in different areas and that are coming closer to humans as well. And this is probably something we will have to study for the pandemic here of COVID -19. It sounds so complex because I guess on the one hand, the disturbance of the natural balance within the forest is one thing.
Speaker: And then the animals and the humans coming closer together is another thing. And then imagine there's also an impact of when you have a monoculture crop that replaces an extremely diverse ecosystem. Exactly.
Speaker: exactly the point if you lose biodiversity then with monoculture there is that loss of varieties and that loss of species in animals and you have only some predators that are here and that are not regulating. We are losing the natural regulations of ecosystems.
Speaker: And when you looked at that data over 30 years, is this happening quickly? Yes. And it's accelerating even during the last years. So this is because deforestation is accelerating as well. And this is an issue. And we have seen that in Southeast Asia, for example.
Speaker: Would COVID -19 actually be an example of the kind of disease that could be linked to forest disturbance? Forest disturbance or habitat disturbance at least that's something that is not proven but this is among the strong hypothesis now.
Speaker: So in a sense, your study is really pointing to other work that needs to be done, but pointing out that, hey, we looked at all this data and there's a really big problem here.
Speaker: Yes, and there is a problem for me and because this is my background and this is my research on law and public policies, there is a need for international governance and there is a need to pay attention quickly to the forest and to the future of the forests. So it's a problem for you to work on in the future then? Exactly.
Speaker: Now, as you just said, you're calling for some kind of international governance framework that links forest preservation with the regulation of disease. Does anything like that exist at the moment?
Speaker: No, there was an attempt to do an agreement, international agreement, but because of the divergence of point of views between developing countries and developing countries, the attempt failed and there were only principles for the forests that have been developed and then
Speaker: The principles were not legally binding but authoritative. This is something very strange for a lawyer like me.
Speaker: it says they are not legally binding so what can we do with principles like that and we have seen the effect that the diverging point of view is between developing countries and developing countries. Developing countries wanted the sovereignty over their natural resources and other forests and that's where the agreement didn't
Speaker: came into reality and from that point principles have been a fear but not strongly enough to protect the threats of other world. Is there a forum where this need for an international governance framework would naturally come up?
Speaker: I guess this is something that should be discussed under the Convention on Biodiversity because it's an issue of biodiversity and as we have seen there is now a movement on the concept of One Health which is studying the interface between the animal health
Speaker: human health and environmental health. I guess because the Convention on Biodiversity endorsed that concept, it should be discussed there at least for the movement, but we could involve the WHO. Why not on the discussion? Thank you so much for talking with me today, Clara. Thank you very much.
Speaker: I've been speaking with Claire Largioni. She's a researcher with the National Institute of Health and Medical Research in France and she is co -author with Serge Morin of a study on the links between deforestation and disease published March 24th in Frontiers in Veterinary Science.
