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Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys
343 Plays1 year ago
For many mystery fans, Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys are their first introduction to the genre. In this week's episode, Sarah and Brook discuss the enduring appeal of these young sleuths and the legacy they leave.
Discussed in order
The Agathas (2022) Liz Lawson and Kathleen Glasgow
Truly Devious (2018) Maureen Johnson
Ace of Spades (2021) Faridah Àbíké-Íyímídé
Outer Banks (2020-2023) Netflix
Wednesday (2023) Netflix
New York Nell the Boy Girl Detective (1880) Edward L. Wheeler
"Welcome to Camp Noir" in Neptune Noir: Unauthorized Investigations into Veronica Mars (2006) Lani Diane Rich
Bobbsey Twins
Nancy Drew Diaries
Three Investigators
For more information
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Music: Signs To Nowhere by Shane Ivers – www.silvermansound.com
Transcript
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Transcript
Introduction & Springtime Chat
00:00:10
Speaker
Welcome to Clued In Mystery. I'm Sarah. And I'm Brooke, and we both love mystery. Hi Brooke. Hi Sarah, how are you? I'm doing really well, how about you? Yeah, I'm great too.
Excitement for Nancy Drew & Hardy Boys
00:00:26
Speaker
The springtime weather is sort of kind of emerging where I am, and it's actually wonderful to get that little perk up.
00:00:36
Speaker
Yeah, we're experiencing the same thing. It's been a little bit milder the last couple of days, still chilly at night, but I've seen a couple of little crocus buds, so we're definitely on the way to spring. Oh, that's exciting. So I'm super excited today to talk about our episode.
00:00:54
Speaker
Yes, today we're going to be talking about Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys, so I'll get us started.
Teen Detective Trope Popularity
00:01:00
Speaker
The Teen Detective trope is amazingly popular at the moment. In books, yes, but in TV, movies, podcasts, and games as well. Some recent published books with teen sleuths include The Agathas, the Truly Devious series, and Ace of Spades. Shows such as Wednesday and Outer Banks are hot on Netflix.
00:01:21
Speaker
But the idea of young people solving mysteries is nothing new. In fact, this subgenre of mystery emerged in tandem with detective fiction written for adults. Teen detective stories date back to at least 1854 when the dime novel New York Nell, The Boy-Girl Detective, was published. In this series of stories, Nell dresses up as a newspaper boy in order to solve mysteries.
00:01:47
Speaker
I found a website with images of the publication and you've got to go have a look. We'll put a link in the show notes.
Creation & Success of the Hardy Boys
00:01:54
Speaker
The popularity of Teen Detectives really took off in the 1920s when Edward Stradimier, founder of the Stradimier Syndicate, developed the characters of the Hardy Boys. Not only was Stradimier a prolific author, pinning more than 1,300 books himself and selling over 500 million copies,
00:02:14
Speaker
He was also a clever publisher and businessman. A Fortune magazine article notes, as oil had its Rockefeller literature had its Stradimier. Stradimier originally pitched the Hardy Boys series idea to Grossett and Dunlap and suggested the following names for the fictional brothers, Keen Boys, Scott Boys, Heart Boys, or Bixby Boys.
00:02:39
Speaker
The publishing company approved of the project, but chose their own name, the Hardy Boys. Stradimir hired journalists to write the Hardy Boys stories based on his ideas. He paid them a flat rate for each book, retaining the copyrights and publishing under a collective pen name, Franklin W. Dixon. I think it's safe to say that James Patterson has been heavily influenced by Stradimir, given that his system is quite similar.
00:03:08
Speaker
As our listeners are probably aware, the Hardy boys, Frank and Joe Hardy, are teenage brothers and amateur detectives. They live in the city of Bayport with their mother and father and their aunt Gertrude. Their father is a detective. The brothers attend high school in Bayport, but school is rarely mentioned in the books and seems to never get in the way of their solving cases. In the older stories, the boys' mysteries are often linked to their father's confidential cases.
00:03:38
Speaker
In each novel, the Hardy Boys are constantly involved in adventure and action.
00:03:42
Speaker
Despite the frequent danger, the boys always show courage and ingenuity. They are hardy boys, luckier and more clever than anyone around them, even the adults. The first three titles were published in 1927, the same year as the Big Four by Agatha Christie and the Casebook of Sherlock Holmes by Arthur Conan Doyle. The hardy boys stories found immediate success. And by 1929, the series had sold more than 100,000 copies.
00:04:13
Speaker
As I mentioned earlier, I find it striking that these books intended for younger readers emerged simultaneously with adult detective fiction, given that the YA boom of other genres wouldn't happen for decades. Scholar Carol Billman called the Hardy Boys soft-boiled detectives and says, what Dashiel Hammett and Raymond Chandler did for mature audiences, Franklin W. Dixon did for children.
Nancy Drew's Rise to Fame
00:04:39
Speaker
The Hardy Boys series was such a hit, Stradimire was inspired to create a female counterpart. Nancy Drew officially appeared in 1930 in the Nancy Drew Mystery Stories. She's originally depicted as a 16-year-old high school graduate, but is later rewritten as an 18-year-old.
00:05:01
Speaker
In the series, she lives in the fictional town of River Heights with her attorney father, Carson Drew, and their housekeeper, Hannah. Stradimir wrote the original plot outlines and hired Mildred Wirt to ghostwrite the first volumes in the series under the pseudonym Carolyn Keene.
00:05:20
Speaker
And just think if one of Stradimier's other suggested names for the girl detective were chosen instead. We might be reading adventures about Stella Strong, Diana Drew, or Nan Nelson.
00:05:34
Speaker
Young readers immediately clicked with Nancy's wit and skill and devoured the books about her. The series soon eclipsed the Hardy Boys in popularity with young readers. Over the years, several ghost writers have written as Carolyn Keene. The original series lasted until 2003, consisting of 175 novels. And of course, the Girl Detective's legacy lives on in spinoff series, movies, and games.
00:06:02
Speaker
The intelligent and confident Nancy Drew is cited as a formative influence to many prominent American women, including Supreme Court Justices Sandra Day O'Connor and Sonia Sotomayor, former Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, and former First Lady Laura Bush.
The Appeal of Teen Sleuth Stories
00:06:21
Speaker
Although intended for younger readers, the fact is these series have always been enjoyed by kids and adults alike. So what makes us love stories about teen sleuths?
00:06:32
Speaker
One reason is referred to as reminiscence bump. In a crime reads article, writer Elizabeth Held explains, quote, YA books transport adult readers instantly back to their adolescence. It's a sensation compounded by the reminiscence bump, a psychological phenomenon that makes memories from that time period stronger than other times in our lives.
00:06:56
Speaker
All those emotions that mark the teenage years, helplessness, a desire for control, and even, yes, the angst come rushing back.
00:07:06
Speaker
Lanny Rich, a contributor to the book Neptune Noir, Unauthorized Investigations into Veronica Mars, agrees, noting that there is something intense about the high school years that we continue to connect with as we get older. Add to that the conflict of a mystery and the two factors coalesce into captivating stories.
00:07:28
Speaker
Aside from this desire to reminisce about our younger years, teen sleuth stories accomplish the same thrill ride as any detective fiction, making order out of chaos, ensuring good prevails over evil and that justice is served. And maybe they're about hope, too. Navigating the teen years can be tough, but if a teen can solve a mystery, they can do just about anything.
00:07:52
Speaker
Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys will be forever young. The younger versions of us out there solving tricky puzzles and catching the bad guys even when no one else can. Thank you, Brooke. That was such a great introduction and I learned so much and I want to check out what was the name of the first detective that you talked about?
00:08:16
Speaker
the female wearing the cap. Her name, so she would dress up like a little newspaper boy to solve crimes. And her name was New York Nell, the boy girl detective. Literally that's the title. And like I said, we'll have to put some links in the show notes because the illustrated publications, this was a serial, like most of the fiction back in the 1800s.
00:08:42
Speaker
And they're just adorable. The print is teeny tiny, so I'm not sure we can read any of it, but yeah, some research into her seems really good.
00:08:52
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I'm sure like most mystery fans devoured Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys over the course of a couple of summers at my grandmother's house. I just absolutely, absolutely loved them. And I've been rereading some of the original stories as well as some of the ones that were published more recently that have a more modern day.
00:09:20
Speaker
maybe we can talk a little bit about that, sort of adapting with the times that they seem to have done really, really well so that they continue to be read by audiences almost 100 years later.
00:09:35
Speaker
Yes, it's interesting that you say that you read them at your grandmother's house because that was my method of getting these books as well. I shared with you before that I lived on a farm and so my grandparents house was right across the street essentially from the house I lived in and in the basement my dad's and his sister's collection of books still existed and so I would go and use it as my own personal library
00:10:03
Speaker
and get different books. Some of them were Nancy Drew, some of them were Hardy Boys, there were also the Bob C. Twins, and oh, there's another series, which also was a Stratomire production. He was
00:10:18
Speaker
absolutely prolific in the children's book industry. So if it was popular at that period of time, he probably had something to do with it. But yeah, that's how I did too. So these were authentic, probably 1950s, 1960s copies of the books and just really a fun way to get introduced to these mysteries.
00:10:41
Speaker
So, you know, when I was reading them, it wasn't that reminiscence that you were talking about, because I wouldn't have been through high school yet. But Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys seemed to have this freedom that I didn't have. I was also too young, but didn't have access to a car and couldn't really imagine myself hopping in my car and going to check out a clue the way that Nancy did with no, like,
00:11:12
Speaker
This is just what she's going to do. So really inspirational in terms of she knew what she wanted to do and I really admired that.
00:11:19
Speaker
Absolutely. That confidence. And we see that in, um, in all amateur sleuth stories, don't we? Where we think, man, I wish I had, you know, the hood spa to go do that. But when you're dealing with these teenagers that'll do that, it's the confidence, it's the, um, the ingenuity, the,
00:11:42
Speaker
the quick thinking as a kid that I think is so endearing. And you can see why those prominent ladies that I mentioned, I mean, and let's face it, those are probably just a small sampling of women who can say that Nancy Drew, you know, impacted them, it inspired them, made them realize that as a girl, you know, as a young person, I can do
Nancy Drew's Empowering Freedom
00:12:06
Speaker
these things. And I think that that's something that both of these series did really well was empower kids.
00:12:12
Speaker
One of the things that I think Brooke is really easy for us to forget as readers in the 21st century is how impressive it must have been for readers in the 1930s to see this young woman, 16, 17 year old girl,
00:12:30
Speaker
kind of being granted the freedom to hop into her car and go off on these investigations, right? It was just, oh, Nancy's up to her old detection tricks again. And there was no question about whether she should be doing that. In a time where as a girl, as a woman, you really couldn't travel or be in society unaccompanied. It wasn't considered appropriate.
00:13:00
Speaker
No, absolutely. Like, you know, I'm sure my grandmother wasn't afforded any of that kind of freedom. My mother probably wasn't afforded any of that freedom. And so it's, yeah, you know, I think really, really impressive that this character was given that. And as much fun as it is for us in modern day to read and enjoy the confidence and freedom of this
00:13:26
Speaker
young girl detective, it had to be so satisfying and fun for the women who were living in the same time as her. For those girls that didn't have the ability to go hop in your Roadster and go, I mean, that's what would make it so much fun to read these. You can see why they would be so popular.
00:13:47
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And even the more modern version. So I've read from both Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys books that were published within the last decade. And so, you know, they have cell phones and they're driving, I think Nancy Drew is driving a hybrid car.
00:14:08
Speaker
Um, and so, you know, they're, they're definitely in the modern world, but they, they still have that confidence that is really impressive. Mm-hmm. I, I did that this week too. I chose to read, um, a Nancy Drew and a Hardy Boys that are in the new series. So it was one of the Nancy Drew diaries, I think is the, the most recent series and, um,
00:14:33
Speaker
I'll be honest, I was nervous about it. I'm like, I don't know how I'm going to feel about these kids being in modern times with modern technology. But I loved them. I enjoyed them so much. And one thing that I thought was really, really well done
00:14:52
Speaker
And over the years, I have no idea how many ghostwriters have written under these collective pen names, but I'm always struck by how well they keep the voice. They keep the tone. I don't know how to describe it any better. This feeling that you get when you read.
00:15:09
Speaker
I feel it a lot in the Hardy Boys, the way that the two brothers interact with one another. They've kept it and I enjoyed them so much. It didn't bother me that they had cell phones and could do modern technology. It was just really great.
00:15:29
Speaker
Yeah, I remember being really surprised when I realized that they were both ghost written, that Franklin W. Dixon and Carolyn Keene did not exist as people, but were this collection of people who were all writing these stories. Because as you say, it really is hard to tell that different people wrote these books.
00:15:57
Speaker
I also have been watching, there's a Hardy Boy series that's on TV. I think it's on, I don't know if it's on Amazon Prime, but so it's set in the 1980s. So they don't have cell phones. They don't have all of the access to computers and internet that the more modern day sleuths have. But there are a couple of differences.
00:16:25
Speaker
The younger brother, Joe, he's only about 12 years old, whereas Frank is 16. He can drive, so he's at least 16.
00:16:38
Speaker
And their mother dies in the first episode, which is, I think, different than the books. And that's what sends them till they end up living with their aunt, because their dad has to go on a case. And so, yeah, so the dynamic is a little bit different between them, because in the other books, they seem to be much closer in age, whereas they're definitely a few years apart.
00:17:05
Speaker
And I don't remember this so much from the books, but they kind of each have their own mystery that they're investigating in the series. Yeah, yeah. And so that's interesting as well. But yeah, I'm enjoying watching the Hardy Boys.
00:17:26
Speaker
That sounds really good. I'm going to look for that.
Teen Sleuths in Cozy Mysteries
00:17:29
Speaker
And I enjoy seeing how they're maybe deepening the backstory a little bit, deepening some of the subplots. That's interesting. We talked about, when we talked about cozy mysteries, and I think that
00:17:46
Speaker
these stories definitely fit in like the cozy category. We talked about a trend for a little bit more of the traditional mystery of elements coming into the cozy world. And that would be more of like an overarching character arc, maybe a story that continues throughout a series, a little bit more of a, there could be a little bit more of a dark
00:18:12
Speaker
backstory, definitely not too dark because it's continues to be cozy, but that's just really interesting. I think there's a parallel there with what we talked about with Melissa bourbon and our cozy discussion.
00:18:25
Speaker
Yeah, I would agree. I think they are cozy in terms of, I mean, there's a little bit in the television show, there's a little bit of tension. You know, there's someone who's kind of after them and kind of suggestion that there is a potential for violence, but there's nothing that's kind of shown on the screen.
00:18:48
Speaker
And I'm just trying to think about the more modern Nancy Drew Diaries book that I read, because it was a little while ago that I read it. But yeah, I would agree. I think it fits in the cozy category. Although I've been reading one of the original, I think it's the second of the original Nancy Drew stories.
00:19:15
Speaker
There's a scene where her father offers her a gun because he wants her to protect herself, which I thought was really, really interesting. I don't know if we would see that in something if it was published today.
00:19:32
Speaker
Yeah, probably not and I know that I believe it was in the 50s I would have to look back at some notes, but that some of the early hardy boys were rewritten and kind of updated because of
00:19:49
Speaker
maybe not weapons, but things like discrimination, some language that we wouldn't use any longer. So that was even done in the 50s. So I'm sure in today's books for kids, no father would offer their child again.
00:20:08
Speaker
No, I can't imagine that that would happen. But it's interesting you mentioned the kind of revisions that happened in the 1950s. And I think there might have been another round of revisions maybe in the 1970s and maybe again recently.
Revising Classics for Modern Readers
00:20:24
Speaker
I think it's not uncommon for that to happen with
00:20:30
Speaker
with books that were published a while ago if you know if you think about if you're a publisher and you want your books to remain relevant to modern audiences.
00:20:41
Speaker
maybe you do go in and you issue a next edition that removes some of those references that might not sit as well with today's audiences. And I know in the publishing world there's been some controversy recently about Roald Dahl books and James Bond books as well, I think, being
00:21:03
Speaker
being revised, but these aren't the first series of books to get that treatment. And so it's understandable. And I think it's a purely financial decision so that the books remain relevant.
00:21:19
Speaker
Maybe it's even more important for these series that are intended for younger readers, because as an adult, you can maybe put some perspective and say, oh, well, this was written in the 20s. So I can take some of these references with a grain of salt and understand the times that it was written in.
00:21:40
Speaker
But I think when you're 10 or 11 years old, you're not going to be able to layer on that worldview. And so I think it is important to keep a series relevant for that audience that you go in and you make some updates so that the stories can endure.
00:22:00
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, so I don't know if this is true of the Hardy Boys, but there's a series of Nancy Drew books where I think she's even younger, like she's not in her teens. She might be 10 or 12 years old.
00:22:18
Speaker
And I read one of those, and as you would expect, the case is much less harrowing than some of the stuff that the original Nancy Drew, or even the Nancy Drew Diaries would be looking at. The one that I read was a pair of ballerina flats that
00:22:41
Speaker
that were stolen, right? And so kind of investigating amongst the ballet class who might have done that. And so I think pitched at the early reader, so almost that gateway into mystery kind of book.
00:23:03
Speaker
I love that. We got to get them while they're young, Sarah, and suck them into the world of mystery. Exactly. Yeah, you can see how, again, this is a publisher decision. As you say, get them while they're young, reading these really
00:23:19
Speaker
introductory Nancy Drew stories and then graduating into the more traditional Nancy Drew stories and you know same with the Hardy Boys right and then and then the whole world of mystery opens up.
00:23:35
Speaker
Yes, yes.
Impact of Childhood Mystery Series
00:23:37
Speaker
For me, I did read the Nancy Drew and Hardy Boy series, but for me, the series that was the gateway was Alfred Hitchcock's Three Investigators. It's a very similar concept. It's three friends who are the sleuths. I devoured this series. I loved it.
00:24:01
Speaker
I actually now own the books that I would check out from our public library in our town because it was a miracle. I was at the library. I do still live in the town I grew up in. And the series was stacked against the back of this shelf. And I said, wait a minute, what are you doing with those? And she said, well, they're not getting checked out anymore. It's time to clear out. And I said, can I buy them?
00:24:26
Speaker
Because these are the books that I probably read the series like three times beginning to end. And she's like, you can have them if you'll just buy a few things off of our Amazon wish list. I said, absolutely. So I'm really, really honored because it was that series for me. Like many people, it is the Nancy Drew or Hardy Boys series. But for me, it was Jupiter Jones and Peter and Bob.
00:24:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's amazing how impactful these books can be. And the feeling that you get when you read them again, I get that reminiscence bump so much. I love that you managed to get those, Brooke. I think that's so wonderful. And I can just imagine you seeing them on your shelf and them bringing a smile every time you do. That's such a cool story.
00:25:18
Speaker
Yeah, they do. And they're very well loved because as a library copy, some of them, you can barely see the cover anymore because so many kids took them home and that's even special to me. Well, I have to say, I have enjoyed rereading some of the books that I would have read
00:25:39
Speaker
I don't know, 30 years ago, I guess, or more maybe. It's been kind of fun to relive that. And yeah, you know, maybe a part of me still dreams that I could be Nancy Drew and I could have her little, I think she has a little roadster that she hops into and goes off to solve her cases.
00:26:03
Speaker
Yes, me too. It's so romantic to imagine, right? Well, thanks, Brooke, for talking about Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew. And I learned a little bit about some of the history of young sleuths as well. So this was a really great conversation.
00:26:18
Speaker
Yeah, thanks Sarah. I think that it would be great that in the future to maybe talk about some of the other series that were written as well for younger kids because we've got some other famous sleuths out there. So we'll come back and talk about teen sleuths again in the future.
Conclusion & Appreciation for Sleuths
00:26:36
Speaker
But for today, thank you for joining us on Clued in Mystery. I'm Brooke. And I'm Sarah. And we both love mystery.
00:26:44
Speaker
Clued In Mystery is produced by Brooke Peterson and Sarah M. Stephen. Music is by Shane Ivers at Silvermansound.com. Visit us online at CluedInMystery.com or social media at CluedInMystery. If you liked what you heard, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or telling your friends.