Transcript
Speaker: This is policy, not an accident. We're seeing so many journalists murdered by Israel. And the reason is they don't want the truth being told, the stories getting out, and it's a war crime. Gaza, journalists under fire. What led to the making of this film? I started to see what was going on in Gaza. The genocide, the attacks, the devastation, children, hospitals, doctors. And as a New York Jew, I felt the deep moral... sense to do something. There's a lot of challenges in trying to make a film about Gaza. How did you get in there? The reality of trying to get official permission to go was virtually impossible. So what we did was utilize technology in a good way. What reception have you gotten from press associations? We've gotten none. I hope that will change. Part of the strategy is to make us feel hopeless, to believe nothing will change. The only thing that What's not acceptable but is to do nothing.
Speaker: Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. As -salamu alaykum. This is CARE On The Air and I'm Robert McCaw, your host for today's program and CARE's National Government Affairs Director. Today, we're excited to introduce you to Robert Greenwald. who is an American filmmaker and the founder of Brave New Films, which is a nonprofit film and advocacy organization. whose goal is to champion social justice issues by using modern media.
Speaker: education. and grassroots volunteer involvement that inspires, empowers, motivates and teaches civic participation ah and makes a true difference. With Brave New Films, Greenwald has made numerous investigative documentaries like uncovered the war on Iraq in 2004.
Speaker: out fox rupert murdoch's war on journalism which i have a dvd of Iraq for sale, the war profiteers. Rethinking Afghanistan.
Speaker: coach brothers exposed and the war on whistleblowers and many other important documentaries and films in his latest documentary which we're going to dive deep into Gaza, journalists under fire.
Speaker: Robert exposes Israel's crimes against journalism and humanity through the lives and deaths of Palestinian journalists. Below. Jadaa. Have a...
Speaker: al abdallah And Ismail Al Ghul. Now. to get a little bit better about understanding of this documentary uh jameel can you roll the clip
Speaker: Oh, people of the people of the merciful hearts! Finally, we have food in the kitchen. Palestinian journalists are One of the few windows into understanding the reality in Gaza, given that access has been blocked largely to foreign journalists. i love that cat if you want ida have been up Thousands of starving people have gathered here to receive food. By morning, over 100 would be dead in one of the single biggest mass casualty events of this conflict.
Speaker: I don't know to say. I don't know what to say.
Speaker: We see the whole world.
Speaker: The Israeli authorities are preventing human rights investigators as well as journalists from going to Gaza so that we can carry out our own investigation. They are expecting us to believe their version of events, but all of those statements contradict what we are hearing from testimonies from people on the ground. What he couldn't see.
Speaker: Ismail Ghoul, Al Jazeera, Al Shifaq Hospital. The city of Gaza.
Speaker: That really is an impactful piece of storytelling. So this is my favorite part, jumping straight into the program. I really want to learn more about you and Brave New Films in this film, Gaza Journalists Under Fire.
Speaker: So, Robert. Tell us, how did you come to found... ah Brave New Films and what drove you to activism through filmmaking? I had worked in commercial film and television for many years.
Speaker: I had... Enjoyed it? And I became increasingly aware in the commercial world. And I say this half -kiddingly. It is filled with psychopaths and murderers who stab you in the back.
Speaker: i prefer to be stabbed i'm a new yorker i prefer to be stabbed in the front than in the back So at a certain point in the commercial TV. And. feature film or on cable film world.
Speaker: Because I'd become quite successful, I'd made 60, 65. ah television movies, cable movies, miniseries, theatrical films. I was fortunate enough to be in a position where I did not need to make decisions around financial needs.
Speaker: And so a few events came together. One of them. ah was the death of my father. And as I remember this so clearly, as I was getting up to speak at his memorial service.
Speaker: And he, like all fathers, including myself was not perfect. And I was thinking, what am I going to say that's truthful and yet meaningful in the context of a memorial service.
Speaker: And it really hit me that one of the great gifts that he'd passed on to me. was this notion about doing things beyond your own self -interest. And here I was at a time in my life, financially,
Speaker: I had freedom to make choices And right then and there, I decided I was going to do more. focusing on the things that I cared about.
Speaker: in the social justice world. I never had the wildest idea that I would start a company, that it would be a nonprofit, that we'd be able to make these films.
Speaker: But I knew. I wanted to. for myself, For my family. for my heritage. do things that had a social justice.
Speaker: meaning, and component. That led to the first film. And then. subsequent films and then people suggested Well, why don't you start a company?
Speaker: And then here we are today. however many years since then with Brave New Films Well, you know, thank you for taking your experiences and your reflections and what you want to do with your life and channeling that into a type of advocacy.
Speaker: that not only educates but elevates people. into civic participation and just on a personal note When I was going to grad school in 2004, I did buy that copy outfoxed and it was game changing for me.
Speaker: and how I saw the media. and still impacts me today so just thank you for that piece now talking about impactful film Your new one. Gaza, journalists under fire.
Speaker: What led to the making of this film? It was a few things coming together. um I follow the news. i See a lot on social media.
Speaker: And I started to see. clips. from the extraordinary courageous Brave. Palestinian journalists. Palestinian volunteers who were posting.
Speaker: about. What was going on in Gaza? the genocide. the attacks, the devastation. children, hospitals, doctors.
Speaker: And... particularly as a New York Jew. I felt a deep... moral sense. that I wanted to do something and I was going to do something.
Speaker: What I didn't know because back then this was before public opinion had shifted ah It was a very small minority. outside Palestine who were talking about this.
Speaker: So I thought about it i worked with the my colleagues at brave new films and i thought I made two assumptions. One turned out to be correct. One turned out to be incorrect.
Speaker: One assumption, the incorrect one, is, well, if I focused on journalists Not that they're a better breed. but I felt if I focused on journalists Then Legacy Media.
Speaker: What? write about Help tell the story. Spread the word. because it was journalists. being murdered. by Israel. 100 % wrong about that.
Speaker: The part... that turned out to be right and hopefully more important was If we focused on journalists, if we were able to humanize them,
Speaker: to make it personal. Often when people ask me, what does Brave New Films do? I will say what we do is we put a face.
Speaker: on policy. And I felt that journalists would be a way to do that. and frankly to reach people who maybe be didn't care. who maybe had stereotypes.
Speaker: about Palestinians. And so we spent six, eight months doing research with the... extraordinary. people at Brave New Films and social media.
Speaker: for all of its challenges and all of the issues. became an extraordinary resource. because by digging into social media we were able to find and tell the stories of these three journalists and tragically there are many more who had been murdered.
Speaker: And again, I... remember a moment very clearly Because as you're working on a film or a campaign, there are always questions. And I wasn't sure.
Speaker: Could we do this? Could we humanize these people? and then I saw a little clip and it still breaks my heart to talk about it. of the young girl who was having a birthday party.
Speaker: who subsequently was killed by Israel. And I said, yes. This is universal. Everybody who has a child, a cousin, a relative of any kind, a sibling,
Speaker: This had the possibility if we didn't screw it up. of reaching those people. and therefore expanding the awareness, The concern. and hopefully moving people to activism.
Speaker: about what was being done. to Palestinians. Well, I thank you for that. And we've seen press freedom groups.
Speaker: debate. over how do they take their oversight role and apply this to Israel when there's so much political pressure. And you know I was really proud to read when Reporters Without Borders uh they issued their own announcement saying that Israel what had killed the highest number of journalists that they had recorded.
Speaker: And then other organizations. Um, are reevaluating how they make these counts like the Committee to Protect Journalists because they were undercounting or ignoring the death.
Speaker: of these Palestinian journalists now it's it's well known Israel is killing journalists not only in Gaza, but in the West Bank. In Lebanon. all right other countries as well.
Speaker: How did you... pick these three journalists? What is it about their stories that interests you the most?
Speaker: It was a combination of factors. Again, keeping in mind our goal, which was to reach an audience. to help move them. And a reminder, as I said before,
Speaker: This was at a period of time. When. Almost all of legacy media. almost all the elected officials Word. signed up for what has been historically a misguided in my opinion allegiance.
Speaker: Israel can do no wrong. The only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian. With that context, What I wanted to do was find, ah I didn't know it would be three, although three tends to be a good number.
Speaker: I wanted to find... Palestinians. who could represent not in a stereotypical way. different. aspects.
Speaker: of the journalism. So number one. had to find and had to have a woman. End. We have her. I wanted an on -the -ground act of working journalists.
Speaker: We have him. And I wanted somebody who was more kind of. wonky policy think tank oriented. And we found him.
Speaker: now That was the first step. Then this step. with these three and others who wound up not in the film. Was there enough?
Speaker: material stories videos photos So we could do the job. Of course. Quote, bringing them to life.
Speaker: using existing material that we then filled out with some relatives and friends and allies. who um tremendous courage spoke to us from Gaza. and we included.
Speaker: But. the three steps of diversity from the... journalists that we chose. and then enough material that we could have access to that could then help tell their story.
Speaker: humanize them. make them rela ah relatable. End. move and motivate audiences. to do something We've had, by the way, over 1 ,300 free screenings.
Speaker: all around the world including Gaza, including ah Israel. including South Africa, and then many of most of them in the United States. That's that's just amazing work in that you know, really tells about the nonprofit mission.
Speaker: of your organization too. It's just not the film. Now, when you make a documentary. That itself is an act of journalism. Can you give us some of the insights that you gleaned?
Speaker: About how Israel targets the press especially in Gaza. What are some of the more significant? things you've discovered in making this film. you know what i learned when I was responding to an incident when family members of an American were killed in a double -tap strike in Gaza.
Speaker: The first strike. Kill the family. destroyed a building The ambulance gets there. Israel hears them on the radio waves. They're saying they're getting near. and The second they get near, they get hit again, right?
Speaker: um Israel's tracking almost everyone in Gaza. They're using sophisticated AI to filter out people. They're geolocating and tagging. What did you learn about how Israel targets? Uh,
Speaker: journalists in Gaza. Well, first of all, I think it's important to reiterate what you said at the beginning which is... This is policy.
Speaker: This is not an accident. The fact that we're seeing So many journalists murdered by Israel. The fact that we're seeing it in Lebanon.
Speaker: And there is a... reason. And the reason is... They don't want... The truth being told. They don't want the stories getting out there.
Speaker: In addition to murdering the journalists, Israel will not allow... Any. international journalists into Gaza. unless they're accompanied.
Speaker: by a member of the IDF That has gone on and it continues to go on. Israel has tried to prevent some of the human rights organizations that have done extraordinary work.
Speaker: exposing the fact. It's a genocide. and it's intentional. and then the tools they use. to... Kill the journalists.
Speaker: are multifaceted. You mentioned the tracking. um We've seen more recently a really important study about the use of drones to kill people in Gaza.
Speaker: which maybe makes it. pardon the word, easier. for the killing because the often The military does not literally have to take the rifle.
Speaker: pointed. had a child. at a young person. had a family. and the use of small drones. to kill in that way.
Speaker: has expanded radically, and that is connected to AI. in the sense of the more technical... Logically you make it the more impact they can have.
Speaker: the more the people that can be killed. And on the double strike years ago, I did do a film about the use of drones in. I went to Pakistan and interviewed drone survivors.
Speaker: We were using drones to... Kill people? That. weed. Maybe. Thought. Yes. the word. Terrorists. And the double strike.
Speaker: was well known. practiced over and over and over again. And it's a war crime. Well, not only Is the double strike.
Speaker: a pattern and a tactic. the fear of it also prevents Palestinians or others. from then rescuing those survivors who are in need.
Speaker: Um, Now. There's a lot of challenges. in trying to make a film. about Gaza. As you just said, Israel does not allow journalists to go in unless it's some type of russian soviet union potemkin you know, village situation where everyone.
Speaker: has groceries in the market. Um, How did you get in there? How did you get the film? How did you do the interviews? Break it down for me.
Speaker: so I I've been to Afghanistan. I've been to Pakistan. I would have wanted to get into Gaza. but They w - Number one. Well, no. in in order of importance.
Speaker: My wife and my four children um voted 100 % against my going. N. Um, then the reality of trying to get...
Speaker: official permission to go. was virtually impossible. So what we did was as I was saying before we started to utilize technology in a good way.
Speaker: That is... social media. We've had people working with us who were ah fluent in various languages and they went on Instagram and Instagram particularly, and then also Facebook.
Speaker: And then. we found not in an illegal way, some of the individual social media accounts. where we're able to see the birthday party. we were able to find this.
Speaker: You know, Heba was telling the story of she'd been locked up. She couldn't leave. The bombing was continuing. She was. fearful for her life. We found a lot of that through work and searching.
Speaker: on existing social media. That was the biggest and most important part. Then we found some people in Gaza, particularly Hebe's sister.
Speaker: Who? was wanted very much to communicate with us. She's in the film at some of the locations. um painfully We have not heard from her in a couple of months.
Speaker: I hope. that it's because her internet is working. not working or she doesn't have access. but there's a very real possibility she's been killed.
Speaker: And then some of the other people in the film, some of the co -workers. that went to the site of the destruction of a building. ah who were willing and wanting to communicate with us so that they could help tell the world.
Speaker: about what was going on. and how it was going on. and then there were some people who've done good research for it Amnesty International and other um organizations that focus on human rights.
Speaker: that we used. but I believe strongly in the work When we do it, to try to reach the heart first and then the brain will follow.
Speaker: So the experts, the pundits, people who are very eloquent and educated. about what's going on. They are helpful.
Speaker: but where film can be most important, I believe. is if you reach the heart. And that requires the real people When they're alive when I went to Pakistan and interviewed drone survivors, when we brought drone survivors to the United States for a hearing in front of Congress.
Speaker: the more we can find and tell the personal stories. the more impactful the film will be. versus what many other people do that is important.
Speaker: white papers, studies, investigations, etc. I think I was in that same hearing room with you that day. I just didn't know it. Oh. um You know, there's always a price to pay when you get involved in documentaries about relevant subjects you know in politics in dc everyone's meat on the grill for something someone else But I will say this.
Speaker: engaging on issues of Israel. the human their human rights record. there can sometimes be a big political cost. and you know advocates that care about the truth and care about human rights.
Speaker: We take that on with pride. Um, What were the challenges you faced? Uh... in making this film? What type of backlash did you and your colleagues face in covering Israel's genocide in Gaza?
Speaker: well I, I. there are several examples but i again i just want to be very clear. that whatever I faced and we faced is not anywhere close. It's not even in the same universe.
Speaker: as what the Palestinians are going through. um So. The particulars were... friend -ish people who will no longer talk to me.
Speaker: Uh... funders who withdrew their funding. As soon as they saw. or heard about The film?
Speaker: And unlike... some of the other films where i've there were personal threats around my safety. That has not happened with this one.
Speaker: Which? Is better? then Always. when it does happen. Uh, The funding part of it has been extraordinarily difficult.
Speaker: First, because the loss of funders who'd been funding Brave New Films for years around a series of issues. And then... we've not been able to replace or expand some of those funders because there's a lot more we'd like to do. I want to have more screenings all over the country, which it is available for free for free um online, but I'd like to provide more support.
Speaker: study guides, send people to those screenings. A lot of that has not been possible. but We will persevere and we will continue to find ways.
Speaker: through programs. like yours and others. and independent media to spread the word. to use the full film And to use social media, it's been very it's been invaluable, as I said, around the telling the stories.
Speaker: of the three journalists. And it's also been very important around spreading the word. Have we been blocked on social media? Absolutely. Sometimes it continues. Sometimes we're able to get the block taken away.
Speaker: Sometimes it's even more challenging because what they do is they suppress your algorithm. Yeah. Which actually is evil but smarter than just blocking you.
Speaker: and because it's very hard to prove that they are. suppressing your algorithm. But having said all of that. we do use social brave new films has about a million to 300 000 people on the different platforms i have people on my platform following me personally so any of your listeners viewers who would like to see what we're doing, please sign up and you will.
Speaker: be able to participate as much as you want and see. as much as you want on the different campaigns. And I would say that companies like Facebook or Instagram.
Speaker: which Facebook owns or X or you know other social media companies. They talk a big game when it comes to free speech. But then. I think. when you can see that they use their algorithm to either boost certain topics Or I would say diminish. They've learned you shadow ban someone.
Speaker: That will get them attention. but normally 10 000 people read them and now they're only popping up on 100 feeds? It's hard to prove that. they know what's going on you don't i would really encourage by the way everyone watching this or listening to this podcast.
Speaker: Please check out Brave New Films. check out their website, check out their products. I'm both. we'll get your contact information on that in the podcast and you can. give it to us in the end but um you know CARE would be very happy to introduce you to New Palestinian.
Speaker: Muslim and allied audiences. so you know, i would support each other there. Definitely. And by the way, just not to digress. yeah but It's no longer just the streamers what we're seeing going on at CBS and 60 minutes now is The clue. even the clearest possible example of somebody with an anti -palestinian pro -Israel bias.
Speaker: buying a media company and then devastating the media company around particularly the issue of Israel and Palestine. The people that Barry Weiss is hiring We're working on a new piece that will expose some of this. But what Barry Weiss is doing, the hiring of people, the messaging.
Speaker: The pressure that came and started even with Shari Redstone, who sold. two Ellison's for a billion and a half Huh? um bias around israel it's been extraordinary to see that happened in real time.
Speaker: And thank goodness for outlets. like yours. like others, independent media ah influencers. And then Instagram, which even though it's continually trying to block.
Speaker: Enough is getting through. So. to quote the cliche which in this case i think is so relevant A picture is worth a thousand words. and the pictures we have seen from Gaza.
Speaker: are gut -wrenching? They're heartbreaking. And hopefully... will move us all. to action. Well at 60 frames a second It's millions of words. when we watch documentaries like yours.
Speaker: um What type of message do you have for the international press? when they're trying to cover this. In your view, have they done enough to stand by their colleagues in Gaza?
Speaker: what What reception have you gotten from press associations? We've got none. from press associations. I hope that will change as more people.
Speaker: See the film? has public opinion. changes. The reality is, I don't know. other countries but here the Legacy media is based on profit.
Speaker: therefore, you know the old notion, if it bleeds, it leads. Well, it's true, except if it's a Palestinian. that bleeds in which case they don't cover it.
Speaker: Um, you know i think it was yesterday the day before there was a funeral for a hundred plus members of a family. It was the largest funeral in Gaza since the start of the war and it was for people that had died.
Speaker: well over a year ago. It's just they were able to collect the bodies now. And. I think as far as I know. Zero? coverage in legacy media. I saw it of course in independent and and other sources, but to In answer to your question, I would.
Speaker: Wish. Hope. push do everything possible for media to cover the murder of their colleagues. We have it in the film. It's available widely now. People know the facts.
Speaker: But. It needs to be more. narrative more storytelling, and more outrage. I mean the fact of Israel... killing journalists and then not allowing journalists to come in unencumbered not on their own.
Speaker: is outrageous and infuriating and they should be raising hell but no what happens is There's an incident. Somebody has killed a journalist. and then the idf or someone will say oh he was a terrorist And then the journalists will repeat that because that's the only source they have, because they don't have sources in Israel, on the ground, in Gaza, seeing and being able to communicate. Truth.
Speaker: versus propaganda. and Israel over and over and over again. has this. line that whoever is murdered had to be Hamas.
Speaker: Yeah, and honestly, it's replicating the US's own foreign policy and maneuvers that we did. as you covered with those drone strikes in pakistan and we did the same thing in yemen and africa And I remember even going to White House meetings on this and discovering that we're paying families less than $2 ,000 per victim.
Speaker: because that's the price we put on life. which is absolutely horrible. Um, you know, It took... decades of education after the Shoah, after the Holocaust, to educate Americans and the world about that genocide and the horrors that the Nazis inflicted on the Jewish community.
Speaker: um What are your hopes? for the future of the anti -genocide movement. Where do you see journalism? Education. about Gaza going in the near future.
Speaker: Well, the fact that public opinion has shifted. The fact that we now have more, not enough. but more elected officials speaking up.
Speaker: The genocide in Gaza. would be over in a second. If the United States, our tax dollars, worth. Cut off.
Speaker: from being sent to israel to continue the genocide. It would be over. And I believe that there will be more and more. There is. There are more and more elected officials who take a strong moral position.
Speaker: there will be more and more legislation where we can have an impact. We can cut off the funding. There will be more and more worldwide civil disobedience which is happening.
Speaker: with ah dock workers refusing to load ships that are being sent munitions to Israel. that workers refusing to load airplanes That's going to spread.
Speaker: And I. Believe. I hope. combination of belief and hope. that that will have an effect. on Israel.
Speaker: on its policies It's not going to be quick. And one of the more horrible polls I've seen recently was the number of people in Israel. who support Bibi and support the extermination.
Speaker: of Palestinians. So we've got a lot of work to do. But. You know the line from I don't know what movie it was follow the money If we follow the money. and those are our pressure points.
Speaker: We can and we will. make a difference what you're doing truly is an act of public service which is why brave new films is a non -profit You're not just a filmmaker. You're an educator now.
Speaker: your most recent film gaza journalists under fire is speaking to an issue that so many refuse to speak to. um Do you have any final words for our audience?
Speaker: about this film. About your organization where they can find both Please. Enlighten us. So I start with Another quote that I use often from Leonard Cohen.
Speaker: There's a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in. and we're creating cracks. and there will be more light. And our job is to... make the cracks bigger, wider.
Speaker: Stronger. I think that... uh Anybody who's interested, as you said. Go to BraveNewFilms .org, our website. Go to any of the social media platforms.
Speaker: Go to any of the platforms if you want to follow. my work personally And. The most important thing I think ultimately is do Something.
Speaker: Part of the strategy is to make us feel hopeless. part of the strategy. It's not um an accident. is to believe nothing will change.
Speaker: End. elected officials. Media. advocacy organizations. The only thing that's not acceptable...
Speaker: is to do nothing. I don't think any one of us wants to look back. And think. feel or be asked questions. children, grandchildren, relative.
Speaker: What did you do? when this genocide and murder. was going on. What steps did you take? And we all want to be able to.
Speaker: Look in the mirror. and be very clear. We did something. We're not going to fix it by individual action. But we did something.
Speaker: and collective action. will over time. make a difference. and bring this horror to an end. Inshallah. How can people find Brave New Films?
Speaker: How can they find this documentary? Godzilla, journalists under fire. um BraveNewFilms .org. It's there. uh any one of these social media platforms. You can sign up for Brave New Films newsletter.
Speaker: Um, And you will. See it. It's literally The full film is available. Individual clips are available. some people may not have the attention span for a whatever 41 minute film but so we have each section of the film available separately uh to find different audiences.
Speaker: Then there are even shorter clips from the film. So any and every way possible, oh, we're reinvigorating our screening program.
Speaker: for schools that will be starting up again. if you Run or know or have a connection for a teacher a professor an assistant at a school.
Speaker: Email us. We will make sure that we contact her or him. Because this we have the film and we have a study guide. And one of the most effective screenings we've had was the Gaza film. No, sorry, it was the drone film in front of a military school. and it was a good robust debate and so We need and we want more of that well Robert Greenwell.
Speaker: American filmmaker. founder of Brave New Films. with your recent documentary, Gaza Journalists Under Fire. Thank you for joining Care on the Air. Everyone, again, please go to BraveNewFilms .org.
Speaker: And God willing, we'll have you on this program again. Alright. Thank you. Asalaamu Alaikum to everyone watching this program. And to you, Brother Robert. Thank you so much. Thank you for what you're doing. and My heart and best goes out to everyone in the audience.
Speaker: Alright. Greetings and peace.
