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Can Less Be More in CRM? Exploring Parma's Unique Strategy with CEO Mark Kofman
147 Plays7 months ago
In this episode of Marketing Spark, I chat with Mark Kofman, CEO of Parma—a minimalist CRM designed to simplify relationship management.
Amidst a sea of competitors in the CRM space, Parma stands out with its streamlined features: contacts, notes, reminders, and nothing more.
Mark Kofman discusses the strategic choice of entering a saturated market by focusing on minimalism to appeal to businesses that don't require complex tools.
We delve into the challenges of positioning a unique product against feature-rich giants like Salesforce and HubSpot.
Mark also highlights Parma's approach to growth, emphasizing customer-centric development and strategic partnerships to foster a community of users and developers.
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Transcript
The Competitive SaaS Marketplace
00:00:09
Speaker
It's Mark Evans, and you're listening to Marketing Spark. When an entrepreneur tells me that they have no competition, A, I don't believe them, and B, I question whether they're eternal optimists or have their heads in the sand. Every SaaS marketplace is fiercely competitive. And this is particularly true in the CRM market, where there were 1,383 players in the US in 2023.
Introduction to Parma CRM
00:00:38
Speaker
Nevertheless, the CRM ecosystem continues to expand. A company that caught my eye recently was Parma, which positions itself as a minimalistic and relationship-centric CRM. As someone who helps B2B SaaS companies with brand positioning and go-to-market strategies, I was obviously curious about Parma and how it's working to establish a foothold in the CRM market. And I'm excited to talk with Mark Kaufman, Parma's co-founder and CEO, welcome to Marketing Spark.
00:01:06
Speaker
Hi, Mark. I didn't even know we have so many competitors. I thought it's a couple hundred, but I bet you're not wrong because every day I find a new CRM on the market. And I was like, I haven't heard about you before. The question that I've got to ask, regardless of whether there's a couple of hundred competitors or fourteen hundred, why would any entrepreneur launch a CRM company when you look at the opportunities out there?
00:01:31
Speaker
and markets where there might be less competition, you and your co-founder decided that I'm going to enter the most competitive market possible. Why would you do that? Are you crazy? Did you see an opportunity? Explain the rationale for doing what you're doing. I'm not sure it's rational.
Origin and Philosophy of Parma
00:01:50
Speaker
I probably need to tell the story how I got here. So the previous company that I've been working on was a CRM data migration company.
00:02:00
Speaker
So anybody who's in the CRM space, they might have used us when they buy new CRM products, and we would help business to switch old data from old system to new one. So while building in part two, what I was noticing is you have customers who are switching the CRM in the search of something more simple, something more streamlined, something which will make their life easier.
00:02:26
Speaker
On the opposite, if you look into the CRM market itself, all the products, almost everybody is doing exactly the opposite. Let's add more features. Let's add some new products. Let's turn, if we don't, if we're just doing CRM, like how about we do also help desk? How about we also do marketing platform? Let's do our integration platform. And then it was just an idea. Oh, what if we do.
00:02:52
Speaker
what everybody else is not doing, it'll try to remove features instead of adding features. Would there be an interest? And so this was a Spark-style idea. And then we started to talk about it and that started to make sense. And it resonated with a lot of people. I have an engineer background, so I literally started to imagine what kind of product, how it could look like. But that's, I think, how this whole idea started.
Core Features of Parma: A Simple Approach
00:03:19
Speaker
It's an interesting situation because I work with a lot of early stage B2B SaaS companies and many of them don't have CRM, they're using Excel.
00:03:29
Speaker
And they're exploring, they need to adopt a CRM and they often come to me and say, what should we use? And there's the obvious candidates. There's HubSpot, there's Salesforce, there's Zoho, but you're right. It's, it, they are massive and often expensive propositions. And my thing was, there's got to be a simple CRM. There's got to be a company out there that is just focusing on a very easy to use product. And that's why when I assembled the Prom Parma, I was really intrigued and excited at the same time.
00:03:59
Speaker
So maybe you can provide an overview of Parma, what it does and what it doesn't do, and how it stands apart from the competition, how you make it a distinct product that has a distinct value proposition. How we describe Parma, I think these is to explain it is that this is a minimalistic CRM product. So we have only three features.
00:04:29
Speaker
And this is for real. The three features are contacts, notes, and reminders. And we don't have anything else.
00:04:39
Speaker
Our list of what we don't do is actually huge. We don't do literally anything, but if you look into HubSpot, or if you look into even smaller, simpler CRM, we just don't have anything of those features there. And that's the explanation of the product, but that's also our differentiation. And because we don't have those extra features,
00:05:00
Speaker
We obviously lose to competition in some complex cases where it's a big business with professional sales teams. They would go and choose HubSpot. But there is a market where people have a business, they have customers, but they don't have professional sales and marketing team. And all they need, they just need to remember their customer, remember their face.
00:05:25
Speaker
and just keep some notes of what has been done with that customer over the time. In that case, notes and reminders, that's all you need.
Positioning Strategy Against Competitors
00:05:35
Speaker
And my belief is actually that's a huge portion of the businesses and I think they're completely underserved and that's why
00:05:45
Speaker
tools like Notion, Mondae, Excel or Google Sheets. That's why they're so popular because they just give you a small subset of the things and you can build the scenario with some basics. But I think there's still why Excel is not enough. For example, in Excel, it's pretty much impossible to do proper reminders.
00:06:07
Speaker
and you pump some data into Excel sheet and then you're forgetting about those people. And then it's hard to track the history of the relationship with that person in one line. So you need some kind of like a note taking simple feature too.
00:06:21
Speaker
to remember. Oh, that was the thing I thought about when we discussed with this customer this idea like five years ago. And in Excel, it's pretty much impossible. So we're like, I would say we're much closer to Excel than to Salesforce in terms of functionality, but it's still relationship management product. It's not the generic purpose, do whatever you want.
00:06:41
Speaker
It seems somewhat sacrilegious to have a no frills. Product that only has three features because the normal journey for software companies is that they establish a product they build. Development teams and then you gotta keep those teams busy.
00:06:58
Speaker
And so as a result, they continue to add features, even though they might be features that no one asks for. And the features that they do introduce may not get used, but nevertheless, you've got a asset that you've got to take advantage of. And a lot of, obviously a lot of companies get feature creep or they just become overwhelmed with features and, and it becomes a big mess. I want to ask you.
00:07:22
Speaker
about how Parma does marketing and what challenges you face when you're positioning the product as minimalistic and you're battling competitors that are feature rich, have bigger, more powerful brands, have brand presence. And when people think of a CRM, obviously top of mind would be HubSpot or Salesforce. That's a huge marketing and sales issue. But as you mentioned,
00:07:51
Speaker
Parma is not for everybody. It's for specific types of users. How do you identify the users that would get the most value and most utility from Parma and then how do you market to them at a time when other companies are saying we can do anything you want
00:08:11
Speaker
and have the marketing budgets to have a huge presence everywhere? That's a billion dollar question. I wish I had a solid answer for that, but that's work in progress.
Simplicity in Product and Marketing
00:08:23
Speaker
So we just launched the product to actual first users early this year and we're learning as we go.
00:08:32
Speaker
I think the opportunity of having a simple product opens up some different angles that are not available for other products. For example, when you're setting up Parma, we don't require you to work with a consultant. You don't have to hire an agency to help you out, which is pretty much standard nowadays.
00:08:59
Speaker
If you buy any old school traditional CRM, you would have to start with agency. And what does it mean? We immediately cut off agencies and consultants as a channel who would recommend us because they cannot make money on top of us. But knowing that's not a channel, we are thinking about how users would recommend to their friends the product. So we do a lot.
00:09:26
Speaker
in terms of collaboration with our users, building relationship with them, making sure we are available and making sure that they're happy with the product. And if they're happy with the product, they will go and become our champions to the world and explain why we're different or how we're different. Or they will attract similar businesses themselves because they are
00:09:51
Speaker
They're working in that environment and community. I can give you another example of how our overall business strategy attracts different channels. From almost the first month when we had users, we started to work with small developers interested to build different add-ons for Parma. There's nothing unique in building developer partnerships, but big CRM companies
00:10:21
Speaker
They attract developers by having a huge audience so they can promote their products to the market of let's say HubSpot or Salesforce. The reason why developers come to us, we say, look, we have the API, we just have five meters, super simple. You can build an app in a day. And if you go and try to build an app for any other CRM on the market, that would take you a month.
00:10:48
Speaker
And then we say build a small app as you want, a small integration or anything which is of value. It's a very low investment from your side. But if, if your app is valuable, that will bring you a market and an opportunity. So we are offering the simplicity, not just to our users, but also to potential developers and partners who would be building something on top of Parma. Why did they take a step back here and
00:11:17
Speaker
focus on the early adopters, the people who discovered Parma, love the simplicity and how it is minimalistic and how it does meet their needs.
00:11:30
Speaker
There's a lot of talk within the software industry that your first 100 customers are probably your most valuable. Those are the ones that you'll learn from. They'll learn from you. It's almost like you're co-developing the product because they feel vested. They feel like they've taken a leap of faith by adopting a new product. And in return, you're gonna give them amazing customer service. You're gonna treat them VIP customers. And if you've got those first 100 customers and they become
00:11:59
Speaker
marketing and sales evangelist, then it makes it easier to grow and scale. Did you think about that approach
Customer Engagement and Reducing Churn
00:12:07
Speaker
when you were launching Parma and what are some of the different ways that you've been able to leverage that community to encourage them, to engage with them, and to bring them on side as, for lack of a better word, allies, as opposed to customers? We definitely thought about this from the day one.
00:12:26
Speaker
And the Parma itself, we are not traditional like sales management tool, what the CRMs are about. We are about relationship management. So we use Parma ourself to keep track of our customers. And the way we see customer relationship is not about sales pipeline. It's about working with the customer over the lifetime. And because we had this approach from the beginning,
00:12:55
Speaker
We never thought about, oh, that's a good lead. Let's convert them, close them and forget about them. So we, from the beginning, since we had a customer, we created a profile in Parma. We collect all the feedback that they had in Parma in the simple note. And then, and that allows us to almost have a connection with the customer because everything is tracked in a single space and our developers can come in.
00:13:21
Speaker
our product people can come in and they see, oh, that's the person. We have a photo by the way of each of our customers in, in our CRM and they can connect. And if you look into many other CRMs, they're trying to convert instead of connecting with their customers. And I think we're using the same names and CRM is obviously customer relationship management, but
00:13:48
Speaker
In reality, CRMs are set up as a sales management tools to convert leads into customers. But there's small attention paid. Okay, what's happening with the customer after they have purchased? And the way how we looked into that is actually that's the day one of your relationship. That's just the beginning when you start to build a relationship. That's when you have some
00:14:13
Speaker
engagement. And I think that has helped us. But I don't think it's technical, it's more of a mindset thing. So we are thinking about our customers and trying to think, okay, how we can prolong this relationship for longer, instead of how we can convert them or close them at a better rate. I like the fact that you mentioned that
00:14:35
Speaker
the sale or the transaction as the beginning of the relationship because the way that I look at B2B SaaS marketing is that there's a huge emphasis and a massive investment on attracting, engaging and converting prospects into customers. But after they come on board, it's almost like customers are taken for granted.
00:14:56
Speaker
The deal has been done. You've won them over. And then you don't do a lot to engage them or educate them other than perhaps a monthly newsletter, which is mostly about self promotion about this is the updates that we're doing and the events that we're attending. And I think a lot of
00:15:13
Speaker
companies that relationship that loses its mojo. It just, it becomes stale. And I think a lot of customers felt that feel some of them feel that they're ignored. And I think that's a major cause with churn within the B2B SaaS industry. I wanted to get your thoughts on what type of marketing that Parma has done since the launch or even before the launch. And as an early stage company,
00:15:40
Speaker
growing your user base and trying to drive brand awareness? Are there things that you've leaned into? Are there experiments that you've tried or different approaches that you've embraced to that reflect almost reflect your minimalist minimalistic approach to the product itself? I wonder if there's a connection or an ethos that that encompasses the way that Parma does business from a sales marketing and product development point of view.
00:16:09
Speaker
That's a difficult question. Let me try to unpack
Focused Marketing Strategy
00:16:13
Speaker
it. So our, one of the key principles and cultural beliefs in inside our team is that we want to do less, but whatever we do, we would do it. And this in product, it's very obvious, right? I've already talked about less features and that gives us an opportunity to focus on those three features instead of building everything. But.
00:16:38
Speaker
We are doing the same in marketing. So unlike, and I might be wrong, but the way how, how I see traditional marketing, like, Oh, let's set up a hundred campaigns. Let's try this and that. It doesn't matter. 80% of those campaigns will not work, but something will stick. And that's why everything, what you get out of the company, it's low level quality and because they can focus on a hundred channels very well.
00:17:07
Speaker
And with Parma, our idea, okay, let's do something small. Let's not do too much stuff in the beginning, but let's try to focus on this very well. And, and today the things what we are doing, the key thing is talking about our positioning, our story, our differentiation. You will see that.
00:17:32
Speaker
There's like a lot of those elements, what I'm talking on the podcast today, or when I'm posting on LinkedIn, when you'll see anything which is coming out of Parma as a company, you will see that that's a big important piece. We're reminding why do we exist? What are we trying to build? How are we different?
00:17:53
Speaker
And that's the thing what I'll be honest, we've probably spent a year until now trying to craft those small words, playing with different ways, how to say the same thing, but in less words, how to say it. And so it's more clear. So it's resonating and so on. And while we were working on this, we haven't done anything else. We just worked on that.
00:18:16
Speaker
And after that started resonating, we started to focus on other things. And today, my biggest focus, in addition just to the messaging part, is actually our developer partners. It's counterintuitive to do that in such an early phase.
Developer Collaborations
00:18:36
Speaker
But I think that's going to be long-term a huge, huge winner for us because
00:18:45
Speaker
If we build an ecosystem where it is easy for other people to do something on top, something nice to attract them, they will be the ones who will, in addition to attracting their products, they will be the ones who will get attention to Parma as a platform as well. And there's a lot of hidden stuff which are hard to see for you. But let me bring you an example. When we work with the developer,
00:19:14
Speaker
I would tell them, look, I will be your product manager if you want. I'll come to you. I'll talk to you with all the scenarios. I'll help you with working with that. We will give you our designer and this designer will work with you if you want to help you build screens, to help you build some nice screenshots and everything. I have not seen that any other platform would do such a massive help to the developers.
00:19:44
Speaker
And for us, it's simple because we know our product and we know what our users want for us to help the developer who is scattering to the same user base as ours. It is actually simple, but from the developer perspective, it's wow. I can save so much effort because they're helping me with some things which I'm not good at.
00:20:05
Speaker
And there's kind of small things which are going to benefit over the long term when they add up. But this is just one example of those things, what we do behind the scenes, but which still spreads very well the message. Yeah. I love the idea. As I said earlier, I spend a lot of time, too much time thinking about brand positioning, working with clients from the get-go to articulate and differentiate their brand positioning and the fact that
00:20:33
Speaker
This seems to be a major focus for Parma and that you spent a year trying to refine and perfect it. It's really a great case study in the importance of brand positioning for early stage companies because as I said off the top, every market has fierce competition. And if you can't differentiate,
00:20:55
Speaker
If you can't differentiate yourself, even in a small way, then you're going to be just like every other company out there basically signed the same product with the same features and benefits for the same price. And that's a very dangerous place to operate. So I give you guys complete kudos for embracing an against the grained approach to positioning. But nevertheless, it's I think one of the lessons here is that you own it.
00:21:22
Speaker
You own this position, you can rally around it. You're gonna either succeed or die trying using this positioning. But my advice to any entrepreneur or CEO is that positioning matters. And it will be your competitive edge. It will underpin what you do from a marketing sales, product development, HR, capital raising perspective. I would say that Parma is a really great case study in terms of the power of brand positioning.
00:21:50
Speaker
One thing i did want to ask you in terms of your approach to marketing and this is something that a lot of companies have tried is app sumo so when i was doing my research and i bought products off absolute before when i do my research i noticed that was on absolute the deal which was a great deal had expired.
00:22:11
Speaker
And I think a lot of entrepreneurs who are familiar with AppSumo exploring the idea who I've used, it would be interested in your experience with it. Did it work for you? Why did you do it? Why did you jump on that platform? And for people who don't understand AppSumo, it's basically a marketplace where you can offer your product at a deep discount for a limited period of time and
00:22:31
Speaker
The idea is that they'll use their brand, their marketing to get the users in the short term. There's obviously a cost to be paid, but it does give early stage companies a boost if they need it in some ways. Can you talk about why you used AppSumo and did it work for you?
AppSumo Launch Success
00:22:50
Speaker
AppSumo worked very well for us, but I don't think they worked for us for a reason because of their business model or because the way they are building the deals.
00:23:02
Speaker
The reason why AppSumo was perfect match for us for the launching the product is that they are targeting exactly the same audience as we are. So if you think about users who are buying an AppSumo, these are not like Fortune 500 companies, right? These are freelancers, consultants, pretty much various solopreneurs and
00:23:27
Speaker
This was the audience which we understood that would be our one of the key drivers of the early growth are people who are professional at their own craft, but they are not professional salesmen. They are not somebody who would.
00:23:47
Speaker
need two complex tools and that's what's for us. Absuma was amazing way to get right in front of the audience who we wanted to get in front of. I would say I wish they would have different business model, right? Because this lifetime deal plus the way how this all done, it doesn't promote long-term relationship with those type of customers.
00:24:13
Speaker
But at the same time, everybody has their own way of building the product. So no matter that, for us, it was an amazing match of the audience. If it would be a different audience, I don't think it would work for us so well. We've got a huge interest in terms of the number of first users who came from that. And AppSumo was literally the first people who came to our platform and started to try the product.
00:24:38
Speaker
And I remember the first days, people signing up starting to use and they uncovered nasty bugs in the platform, which we, oh my gosh, how could it work? And by the end of the campaign, the product was already so much improved and we got completely different feedback.
00:24:57
Speaker
But that's the reality of launching early. You just learn on the way. Oops, the door doesn't close well. It's the ethos. It's better done than perfect. And that no product is going to be perfect, ever going to be perfect. And if you wait until it's perfect, you'll never launch anything.
00:25:14
Speaker
Thanks for the advice on absolute i think a lot of entrepreneurs early stage entrepreneurs who are looking for traction should explore the absolute experience and figure out whether it makes sense for them obviously for parma. There is a lot of positive a lot of learning along the way obviously the opportunity to improve your product as part of the process.
00:25:34
Speaker
Was was obviously had huge benefits and has helped the company since your trial with us who ended want to shift gears a bit and get your advice on.
Advice for Entrepreneurs
00:25:43
Speaker
What you would say to entrepreneurs who are looking to enter the bdb sass space with a new product.
00:25:50
Speaker
What are some of the considerations that they should focus on before they get started in terms of is there a need for my product? If there is a need, how much competition is there right now? What are the openings or the opportunities that they can pursue or gaps in the marketplace? And how do they differentiate themselves right from the get go? There's a lot of things to think about. I guess it boils down to is the product
00:26:18
Speaker
needed is there a different approach that we can take and how can we differentiate ourselves right from the beginning what advice would you give entrepreneurs who are looking at a space and going i think i want to do it or at least i'm exploring doing it.
00:26:32
Speaker
Don't do it. To be serious, there are different approaches. And I think very common approach is let's analyze, let's talk to a lot of customers and let's do some customer development and figure out the market before building the product. I like the idea, right? But there's only certain type of businesses that you can build by asking people upfront if they would buy it or if they would use it and so on.
00:27:01
Speaker
I would honestly encourage to do the opposite. I would say if you have a spark, if you have an intuition, I would just don't overthink and just do it. Just simplify it in terms of how to get to the market fast and just launch it. I understand the value of learning the market like before and analysis. It's just many cases I see when entrepreneurs go that route, they spend
00:27:31
Speaker
five times more on analyzing the market, then it would take them to actually build this minimum product that they can launch to use. And so, look, that's what I've built. Would you use it or not? And maybe it's because I have an engineering background and for me, building a product is easier than marketing it. But I think it's just...
00:27:52
Speaker
convenient way of procrastination of instead of going and doing something, like you analyze it and you're talking to people about this and then you're collecting the feedback and you're doing some graphics or you're doing some statistics. Sometimes if you have an intuition and just follow it, that would be my advice. If you feel you want to do it, there must be something that connected in your head that means you should do it.
00:28:20
Speaker
So it's a Nike advice just to just do it. That's an option. Don't think, just do. One final question. I tend to source most of my podcast guests on LinkedIn, despite the fact that I get inundated with people pitching me podcast guests.
LinkedIn for Engagement and Leads
00:28:38
Speaker
curious about your experience with LinkedIn. You've got a presence there. That's how I discovered you. You may have commented on a post or I may have seen one of your posts. How are you finding LinkedIn as a platform to drive your personal brand awareness for Parma and lead generation? Are you seeing traction there or any advice that you would give B2B SaaS entrepreneurs who are already on LinkedIn or thinking about embracing the platform?
00:29:07
Speaker
LinkedIn I think is for us is one of the key places where we have conversations with our customers, but also important people who are not yet our customers. I was actually surprised how effective it is. And the only thing what I was missing on LinkedIn before is that you need to post and you need to post regularly. And if you do that, you will start
00:29:37
Speaker
getting into conversations with other people, you will start getting into some arguments, some, but you will get into that community. And I think very simple advice, just post as much as you can. And doesn't matter what you post, eventually you will catch your voice and you will see what people are engaging versus not. So that's something which I would definitely recommend and
00:30:07
Speaker
Especially for example, when I'm looking now into potential partnership or into potential customers, I'll just go on LinkedIn and I don't care about what they write in their experience. I'll just go and read what are the posts, what are they thinking about? And that gives me the biggest understanding. Okay, that's going to be something what is on top of the mind for this person. And maybe that's what we can talk about, or maybe that's how I can craft our offering better.
00:30:36
Speaker
It's a good way where you can talk about professional interests without sounding strange. If you do it on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, it's not natural there at the moment.
00:30:50
Speaker
switch. But in LinkedIn, it just feels completely normal that you just talk about your work.
Where to Learn More About Parma
00:30:56
Speaker
This has been a great conversation. Love the minimalistic approach to product and love the fact that you've really focused on brand positioning and differentiation. Where can people learn more about you and Parma? But Parma obviously goes to our website, parma.ai.
00:31:15
Speaker
about me, find me on LinkedIn, you'll probably post the link and I'm pretty open so you can write me on LinkedIn. I pretty freely connect to people and then also disconnect freely as well. If you have any ideas or things you want to chat about, just send me a message or even better, argue with me on my posts. That's what I like even more.
00:31:43
Speaker
Thanks, Mark, and thanks to everyone for listening to another episode of Marketing Spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, rate it, subscribe via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app, and share it via social media. And if you're a B2B SaaS company looking for more demand, pipeline, and revenue, but struggling to do marketing that makes an impact, we should talk about my fractional CMO and strategic advisory services and my 90-day marketing sprint package. You can reach out via email, mark at markevans.ca.
00:32:11
Speaker
connect with me on LinkedIn or visit MarketingSpark.co. Talk to you next time.